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3: The Hessdalen Lights
309 Plays1 year ago
I am joined by Erling Strand, researcher and Assistant Professor at The Department of Computer Science and Communication, Østfold University College, to discuss the Hessdalen Lights - a series of strange luminous phenomena concentrated in a small valley in rural Norway. The Hessdalen Lights started to appear in the early 1980s and have since become the subject of international scientific research. Exhibiting characteristics that are seemingly irreconcilable with the current laws of physics, the Hessdalen Lights continue to puzzle researchers up to the present day.
In this episode you will learn about:
- The history of Project Hessdalen, of which Erling Strand is the co-founder
- The out-of-this world characteristics of the Hessdalen Lights
- Potential interactions between the phenomena and field investigators
- The role of the military
- The future of Project Hessdalen
Website of Project Hessdalen with lots of data, photos and articles: https://www.hessdalen.org/index_e.shtml
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Promotion
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode number three of European UFOs. I'm your host Sebastian and if you liked this episode then please make sure to subscribe and leave a review, it really helps.
The Hestallen UFO Phenomenon
00:00:25
Speaker
rural Norway conjures up images of idyllic lakes framed by snow-capped mountains with the occasional elk and reindeer roaming through deep, unexplored forests. Yet in the early 1980s, this scene was disrupted by a set of rather curious and uncanny phenomena.
Interview with Erling Strand
00:00:42
Speaker
In the small and remote valley of Hestallen, around 120km southeast of Trondheim,
00:00:47
Speaker
The local population started reporting strange lights, often close to their homes. Lacking any apparent or no natural cause, these lights continue to puzzle researchers up to this day, even though their frequency has decreased since the early 1980s. Here with me to discuss this mystery is Erlich Strand. He is one of the founders of Project Hestalen, which for more than 40 years has been dedicated to the study and scientific exploration of the Hestalen lights.
00:01:19
Speaker
Hello, Erling. It's great to have you on the podcast. Great to be here. Thank you. Yeah, so I've been following your work and the Hestalen phenomenon has stolen lights for quite a long time and it's really, you know, one of those UAP UFO cases that continues to intrigue me and I'm probably
00:01:39
Speaker
not the only one for whom that is the case. So yeah, really looking forward to today's episode. However, before we get started, Erling, could you perhaps give us a bit of an overview of your background and how you got involved with Haestalen? Well, my first sighting, I was so lucky that I got a sighting during my student time in Trondheim.
00:02:09
Speaker
I went to Trondheim Technical School. When I was a student up there, I got my first sighting when I was walking home from my university in the middle of the day. That triggered my interest for the topic. That was a long time ago, back in 1978.
00:02:36
Speaker
However, that brought me into the subject and when this light phenomena in Hestan started to show up quite many sightings in the late 1981, I got involved with this.
Erling's UFO Sightings and Motivation
00:02:59
Speaker
My background, you know, is electrical.
00:03:06
Speaker
and study at the university. I worked some years in the private companies and also started to lecture at the university college in Norway. And after, let me see, that was 1988. I started with the lecturing at the university college
00:03:36
Speaker
computer topics and I've been doing that since then and I will retire now. What else brought me into the topic? Well, first of all, my sightings when I was a student, I had also a couple of more sightings in the daytime, which captured my interest
00:04:05
Speaker
And when the newspapers started to write about what was happening in Hestan, that was I think late 1981 or early 1982. At that time I was working as a scientist or actually a research fellow in
00:04:35
Speaker
a big company in Osho. And this kept, brought my interest of course, because I've always been interested in the topic since my first sighting. And when we, I and some friends decided to go to Hestown one weekend,
00:05:03
Speaker
And I was lucky enough to have a sighting up there as well, which also increased my interest for the topic. And when I discovered that people in general, or especially scientists at that time back in early 80s,
00:05:27
Speaker
didn't want to be involved in such topics at all. Even if I think the subject, if you go into the subject of studying this strange phenomena or UFO phenomena or whatever you call it, I'm quite sure it will bring a lot of knowledge.
00:05:55
Speaker
So that triggered me to do some research or start a research together with some friends. And I think I learned a lot during the year, so that was my first
00:06:16
Speaker
in truth, the subject. Yes, no, very, very interesting. Can I ask you, what was that, so when you were a student, what was the original sighting that set all of this in motion? What was that like? Was it like flying saucer? Was it a triangle? Just a light? What did it look like? Well, it was on flying saucer. In fact, it happened in the middle of the day.
00:06:44
Speaker
It was sunshine, nice weather. I was walking home from the university to where I was living. And when I was walking there alone, I saw a flying disc with three legs beneath it, half ball legs.
00:07:13
Speaker
and the shape as quite common, which I've seen later. At that time, I hadn't heard or I wasn't nearly aware of you folks.
Hestallen: A UFO Hotspot
00:07:30
Speaker
But when this flew over my head in the middle of the day, it didn't make any noise. It was white.
00:07:43
Speaker
It seems to be some kind of object, solid object, and it flew over my head and disappeared behind some trees. And I, of course, wondered what was that.
00:08:14
Speaker
Not so far after that happening, there was an official meeting of a local UFO group in Trondheim, which should present themselves and what I was doing. And of course, I went to that presentation to listen to what I was saying.
00:08:44
Speaker
I become part of that group and then after that I more and more got involved in the topic and we have meeting and investigation and a lot of different things.
00:09:04
Speaker
Brilliant, thanks a lot. I mean, yeah, as someone who's also had a UFO experience in the past, I can just imagine the impact it had on you because I know the feeling all too well when you see something in the sky, which your rational mind can't make any sense of. And if you're scientifically curious as you are, it just really nags at you all the time. What was this, what I saw? So I completely...
00:09:32
Speaker
get how this set everything in motion for you. Great, so we're in the early 80s, you had this personal sighting, he got involved with a local UFO group, and then the newspapers start reporting on her Stalin. Now before we delve into what was actually happening there, could you give our listeners, because a lot of them are from the USA, actually,
00:10:00
Speaker
Could you set the scene what Hestalen is like? If you were to have some holidays there, what would it be like? Yes, Hestalen is a small valley in the southern part of Norway, only 15 kilometers, about 10 miles long, and it's a nice
00:10:25
Speaker
People go up there for the nature. You have mountains in the western part of the valley and also on the eastern part of the valley. There are several small lakes where you can go fishing. It's also popular for hunters who want to hunt the birds and so on.
00:10:54
Speaker
So it's quite a good, I would say, nice valley and just visit to have the experience of the nature. It's, of course, one possibility. And we have wondered
00:11:20
Speaker
Why? This small valley in the middle of Norway, in the southern part of Norway, not so far from a rural town and not so very far from the Swedish border either. The valley is located about 120 kilometers south of Trondheim city.
00:11:50
Speaker
Well, this small valley though, where it's a beautiful nature, and then, someday in that valley, something started to happen in light, 1981.
00:12:06
Speaker
And I believe this is when the first reports came out of that rather remote valley and the newspapers picked up on it, right? What did the newspapers, the media report on what caught your attention there? The newspaper started to write about the sightings that people had and it was so many of them. So in the beginning, people just
00:12:35
Speaker
living there. It's about, at that time, 200 people totally in that valley. They started to talk between themselves. But when it happened so quite often, the newspapers started to write about it. Many people were reading the newspaper. They went up to the valley.
00:13:04
Speaker
to try to see it for themselves, which many did. I could also mention that, you know, the word UFO, it was used in the beginning of the 80s. And at that time, many people in general, and especially scientists,
00:13:31
Speaker
a little bit skeptical about when they were using that word. So there was a lot of ridiculing of the people who have seen it, and especially the inhabitants of the valley. They were ridiculed in the press. And of course, that upset them a lot.
00:14:00
Speaker
but of course when many people who took the opportunity to go there took the weekend maybe to and stood up in the mountains around the valley looking for the light it was mostly light absolutely and when they saw it themselves that may
00:14:30
Speaker
I'm sure quite a big impression of these people as it did with me. Yeah, so you were one of those people who in the early days of the phenomenon when it was so common actually went to Hestalen and then had yet another actual visual sighting of what was happening. Could you describe that, your first sighting in Hestalen that then got you more interested?
00:15:00
Speaker
Yes, we were a group of friends. I think we were about seven or eight people. We decided to go up there. Most of us lived in the main capital of Oslo. This is about 400 kilometers away from this valley. So we decided to take a weekend up there. After work on Friday, we went up
00:15:30
Speaker
and stayed in tents. Sounds like a lovely trip. And just before it became dark, we went up out to different locations. We decided to split the group in three different groups because then we had the opportunity to cross-correlate
00:15:57
Speaker
So if one group see it in that direction, another group can see it in another direction so it can point out to where it is. So we did that three groups, communicated with Oikitoki as was possible that time in the early 80s. And not long time after, we have went
00:16:26
Speaker
to different locations up in the mountains, three different mountains, we saw something, or I sometimes saw something, and another group saw the same thing. And what surprised me, it was how strong intensity the light was. I hadn't any expectation before I went to the valley. I didn't even believe I
00:16:55
Speaker
I would see something because, well, if you go there and see something strange, it's how big is the possibility to see something. But anyway, it was much stronger than I would ever expect it. And it just suddenly was on the location.
00:17:24
Speaker
I didn't notice where it was coming from. It was low in the valley. So from my position, I didn't see it all the time because it was just behind a small hill between me and the phenomena, as we call it, the UFO phenomena. Sometimes it went up, it moved up and down.
00:17:52
Speaker
and moved a little bit around in the district as well.
00:17:57
Speaker
It could stand still for several minutes on one location and then it started to move again. So it's something that no aircraft in a conventional sense could do because these kind of erratic and right angle movements stop and go. I think apart from a helicopter, probably not a lot. Nothing can really do that. So that's already fascinating. Yes.
00:18:26
Speaker
Actually the other group was looking down to it so they were above this phenomenon. And so with what kind of feeling did this first sighting leave you because I believe after that then you kind of
00:18:48
Speaker
really started the Hestan project. So what went through your mind when you saw this?
Challenges and Military Involvement in Project Hestallen
00:18:54
Speaker
Did you have any theories, initial ones, or were you just completely stunned and thought, well, I don't know what it is, but this needs to be studied? Yes, it was like that. I'm curious. I want to find out more about things I experienced and
00:19:13
Speaker
My first thought was, what could that be? What was it? Because I have read about it in the newspaper as well, so I suddenly knew that those who have seen this, this is real phenomena. It is a little bit different when you see it yourself, instead of just hearing about it. And now I saw it myself.
00:19:43
Speaker
When I went back to Ushroa, the main capital where I was living, I was working as a research fellow at that time. I had to talk about my companions and the other researchers about this happening. And I was told that, well, you shouldn't be involved in UFO.
00:20:13
Speaker
because that's not serious. People don't want to believe such kind of things. So they warned me, in fact, to stay away from such kind of research. Well, that triggered me even more. I didn't do anything at the moment that was early 1982 or well, not early 1982.
00:20:40
Speaker
It was actually in September 1982. And everyone, newspaper people expected that some research facility would do something, go up in the valley and do some measurement or whatever. But it turned out that no one did.
00:21:08
Speaker
Do you think history would have played out differently if the national news would have covered the phenomena differently rather than using the word UFO and kind of treating it in a derisive way if they had actually said like, look, there is something going on. Do you think your colleagues and also the universities would have been more willing to actually send researchers up there right away?
00:21:38
Speaker
Yes, that's possible because the attitude or the frightening of the subject did stop many people from doing things. But you have also the other topic when you do research, you have to have found things to support your research that also, of course, stop many from doing.
00:22:04
Speaker
things because you need to find funding. Someone with a scientific background myself, I'm then really intrigued about the year 1983 when you went about setting up a project test, Stalin, because I know
00:22:24
Speaker
How even for more mainstream subjects, how difficult it often is to get funding, recruit people, et cetera. So how did you go about doing this? And also, you know, you're dealing with a phenomenon that's a phenomenon in the truest sense, because you just have no idea what it is. So how did you go about setting up project as Stalin? Yeah, we decided to set up I and some friends.
00:22:50
Speaker
decided to set it up actually in June 1983. My first tour to Hestan was in September 1982 when I had these sightings and me and some friends we discussed this a lot. We had a meeting back in 1983
00:23:19
Speaker
where we gathered and discussed this topic and decided, well, no one else do something. Why cannot we do something? So we decided to start a project. We hadn't any money. We didn't have any founding. But anyway, we used our three times to prepare a field investigation.
00:23:46
Speaker
which we decided to take place in January and February 1984, half a year after our meeting or decision. And during that period, we had a lot of contact with different research facilities, the military asking for help. They did support us both
00:24:13
Speaker
knowledge and instruments. So many of the instruments we had during our first field work in 1984 was due to the fact that we managed to get a good contact with some people in different research facilities and also in the military. Of course, those were also interested in this topic.
00:24:43
Speaker
They could help support us with the instruments, which we borrowed. We managed to gather some people who was interested. I think at the most, or totally 40 people participate in the field work. No one did they get any money for it. So they have to cover their
00:25:12
Speaker
all their expenses, we didn't have any money. Although we had the will and we were willing to take the holidays we had, etc. And that was enough to get some data.
00:25:30
Speaker
Well, amazing. Before we continue this chronological overview, there's actually one topic I wanted to talk with you about a bit more, and you already mentioned it now in your overview here, and that's the role of the military because I think, you know,
00:25:46
Speaker
If you're interested in the UFO phenomenon, unfortunately, you will have come across many entanglements with the military conspiracy theories and so on. So I'm really interested to hear how this worked out. So did the military approach you? Did you approach the military? Are they still interested in the phenomenon in Norway?
00:26:09
Speaker
Because from a US perspective, a UK perspective, the military is very interested obviously, but there's some good evidence that suggests that they want to keep it behind lockers. So it's interesting to hear that the military got involved in a public project like this.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yes, I would say it was me who had the responsibility for the scientific and technical part of this first fieldwork. So it was natural that I should have contact with the different research facilities and the military. We wrote a lot of letters sent to different asking for help
00:27:05
Speaker
both universities and the military. So I made the first contact in that way. Some of them responses were very positive. They said they would help us. I think that we had a plan.
00:27:29
Speaker
told them what we wanted to do. We wanted to have some instruments out in the field. People are reading instruments. So maybe they got the impression that this is something we should support, not necessarily with Monday, but with help. Work time. So we had several meetings though.
00:27:59
Speaker
both with the military and also the other fellows from research facilities, they told me privately why there was interest in it, because they were aware of this phenomena and they wanted to find out more themselves. And now some volunteers, as we were,
00:28:30
Speaker
wanted to do something. I think it's quite natural for them to help us with the project, which they did.
00:28:42
Speaker
So you mentioned there's some evidence to suggest that the military was already aware of this phenomenon, which to my mind makes sense because as we will see later, it's a phenomenon that did also show up on radar.
00:29:01
Speaker
I suppose the military was to some degree aware of it. So I think what you then did with your team probably gave them, how can we say, a good cover in, so to speak, to actually learn more about the phenomenon without actually sending own personnel
00:29:23
Speaker
to do the feet on the ground work. I don't know if that theory makes sense, but for me, it's quite fascinating to hear that the military took an active interest on, you know, supportive role in all of this, because traditionally, at least in the US and the UK, that's not really the case. So it's very interesting for international listeners.
00:29:47
Speaker
Yes, the military was interested and of course we didn't tell everyone about that. We had some private meetings, let me call it that, with both the military and the other research fellow. We didn't hide it directly, but it's not common at that time to tell it to everyone about such kind of things. And of course that probably made it more easy for them to get involved.
00:30:17
Speaker
In one point on time, I remember that they stated that they didn't want that we should go to the press or tell them, tell about their involvement. They want to be a little bit in the background, but they should help us. I wish we were very glad. Well, we didn't go to the press telling about that in the beginning.
00:30:45
Speaker
I can tell it now because it turned out later, a couple of years later, that they told it official in a way.
00:31:00
Speaker
Did you ever have to sign a non-disclosure agreement with the military? Are they still taking an interest in it? Or was this only during the initial phase in the early 1980s that they were involved? Early 1980s, no, I didn't sign them. I think we all understood at that time.
00:31:30
Speaker
really understood it as well, that we shouldn't go to the press about this. That was not necessary at that time. And we had a very good relationship with these people who also were interested in the topic. So we had a good cooperation.
00:31:59
Speaker
They helped us both with the instruments and also some equipment. They even, on a couple of occasions, they sent us some people. For instance, when we had the field work, we wanted to set up a station or we split in. We had decided to have several
00:32:28
Speaker
a smaller station with some equipment around in the valley. And they helped us bring up the equipment to this station. So that was good. We had a good relationship. They were interested. And we had two field works back in 1984 and also one in 1985.
00:32:58
Speaker
in the winter time, that time as well. They helped us both in both fieldworks. But in 1985, the year after, the amount of sightings, the amount of data we gathered was very little compared with the one in the first year. So we all believed it.
00:33:28
Speaker
wouldn't, it had gone and didn't continue. And that was very pitty because the military and they said that we will probably get full funding for doing a big new fieldwork the year after if we
00:33:58
Speaker
managed to get as much data as we did in the first year, 1984. But sadly, we got only one good site, I think since 1985, compared with more than 50 in 1984. We believed it had gone and there was no idea to plan any new fieldwork after that.
00:34:26
Speaker
How convenient for the military. They'd saved a lot of money, but very unfortunate for you. Great. So 1984 then was the year where you saw most of the sightings. Now, before we go into what these sightings looked like, if we can categorize them,
00:34:45
Speaker
How did you go about setting up a research methodology? Did you have different experts there from different scientific fields? And what was your methodology like? Because I think studying a phenomenon that you don't even know or have no idea what it could be is quite difficult, right? So how did you go about doing this?
00:35:13
Speaker
Well, if you go back to 1984 and 1985, when we had this discussion with different scientists from different institutions and the military, they were experts. We had meetings with them. So the results we got was discussed with them. And they helped us with some of the analyzing and so on. But that was back at that time.
00:35:42
Speaker
Things have happened after that. Now we have also had some scientists from different countries who take an active role in doing some research in the field. And they have their expert, of course.
00:36:12
Speaker
The pity is that the big money has never yet come. And, you know, UFO is difficult. It was difficult to get funding for our activities. So we haven't done any, let me see, a real great research project
00:36:45
Speaker
with their activities, their research facilities, which are needed to get results. Because, as I mentioned, we didn't get any funding. Well, actually a little bit funding from the military, but
00:37:08
Speaker
not much at all. So the people who took part of it used their own money for taking part of it in the beginning. And if you want to study this really good, you have to do it in another way. I could say also that
00:37:38
Speaker
after 1985 when we all thought it had gone and we didn't plan any new fieldwork due to that. It was by coincidence maybe that the people up in Hestalm wanted to know what had happened after our research activities up in the valley.
00:38:07
Speaker
And I was invited to go to Hestan, that was eight years after our last fieldwork, back in 1993 it was, and had a presentation where I told the local people about the growing interest among scientists. I had been to several
00:38:38
Speaker
conferences, scientific conferences presented what we had and made some contact with different research, which they were interested. So I told them about that. It's slowly growing the interest and growing the acceptance of that it is a real phenomenon.
00:39:03
Speaker
After my presentation in Hesterholm, one of the inhabitants came up to me after my presentation and said, well, it still continues. He said, oh, I was surprised because I hadn't heard about it. And he said, well, we don't tell it anymore. We stop telling it because
00:39:32
Speaker
There was so much really cooling when we did that last time. So we decided to not tell it to anyone.
00:39:44
Speaker
Yes, I think that's unfortunately still very much the situation today, although after 2017 it has changed somewhat. But I think, you know, still for a lot of people, be it in academia or the wider public, it's difficult to approach this phenomenon without being, you know,
00:40:09
Speaker
made to appear ridiculous, so that's very unfortunate and something we still all have to deal with and fight with.
Types and Characteristics of UFOs
00:40:18
Speaker
Coming back to 1984, so the year when you got most of the sightings and most of the data, could you describe what the phenomenon actually looked like, what forms it took?
00:40:36
Speaker
We have split the different sightings, the different happenings in four different groups. One group is flashing light. It can be down in the valley of course, short flashes, fraction of a second.
00:41:04
Speaker
is normally white or blue. And we have found out when you see one of these flashing, which can be hard to see because of the short time, you know. You have to be very aware. But anyway, when this flashing starts to happen, it normally gets more of this
00:41:34
Speaker
sightings. We first became aware of those many years after our fieldworks because we started to see something on the cameras which we hadn't seen when we took the picture. Well, anyway, it turned out that that's one type, short flushing. The second one is
00:42:00
Speaker
balls of light with different shapes, different behavior, different speed, different duration. We have even discussed if we should split type two in several other groups because it can last for minutes or even hours. It can
00:42:29
Speaker
stand still for a long period of time on one location, on one spot, up in the mountain. And it can also have an enormous speed. On one occasion, we had the opportunity to measure speed of 30,000 kilometers an hour. Wow. Yeah. And well, that second type.
00:42:58
Speaker
with different shapes and so on. Mostly yellow or even also some other colors. It can also be more colors involved, but mostly yellow. The third type is where you have several lights together. When they're moving, they all move together as if they are connected to something.
00:43:28
Speaker
And when this type of phenomena has been seen, when it's not completely dark outside, the witness tell that it seems to be some kind of black object these lights are connected to. We have seen that so many times as well. So it even been pictures and video.
00:43:58
Speaker
So we have decided to put that in a separate type. So that's type 3. Does with type 3, does the object have a particular form, like a triangle or a square, or is there any sort of geometric pattern? It seems that the form is different. Some describe it as an elliptical
00:44:25
Speaker
oval shaped around, yeah, shaped like that with different lights onto it. It has also been longer, like a cigar. And it has also been
00:44:53
Speaker
Well, I think that we don't have so very many which have had the opportunity to see it when it's so dark or also when it's light enough to describe the form. But we have no triangular at that time. Well, let me see. We have actually one triangular as well.
00:45:23
Speaker
Even if we have different shapes on these objects which connect the different lights, we haven't decided to split that in several types. That's one type.
00:45:49
Speaker
Well, I could mention also that the different types behave so differently. So sometimes it's very hard to believe it's the same thing. For instance, if you think of a short flashing light, yellow or white or blue, and if you compare that with the ball of light lasting for even up to hours,
00:46:19
Speaker
and you have this third one with several lights connected on to some type which look like an object. It's hard to believe that this is due to the same phenomena. So that is also one of the reasons why we call it the Hestan phenomena and not the Hestan phenomenon because it may be different things we observe
00:46:49
Speaker
And if so, if it is different things or different solution or what it is, why does all of them happen in a small Norwegian valley?
00:47:07
Speaker
brings us to believe there must be something. Indeed, yes. It's very peculiar, and perhaps we can spend a few minutes talking about that subsequently. But sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you with your overview of the different types, because I believe there's a fourth one as well, right? Fourth type. Yes, the fourth one is not so common. It's more like what we can say, more standardized.
00:47:36
Speaker
daylight UFO observation which I decided to split in taking a fourth type not necessarily always lights on it but seems to be some kind of object which many people think of when they hear the word UFO
00:48:02
Speaker
a picture which many people come up with can be similar like that. Been seeing mostly in the daytime, not always lights on it. It can be lights on it as well, but not always. So that's the fourth type.
00:48:24
Speaker
And with these four types, is there anything in their behaviour to suggest that these cannot be natural phenomena? Because some listeners might think, okay, you have flashes of light, sounds like a pretty natural phenomenon to me.
00:48:45
Speaker
Is there anything to suggest in the way these different types behave that this is something totally anomalous? Is there some sort of interaction between observers and these phenomena? Yes, we can discuss the different types, how strange it is.
00:49:14
Speaker
Let me see, where should I start? I can mention also this flashing light is happening down in the valley. You're looking down to it, very often down to the river. It's not far up in the sky. That was also, of course, what I think the most interesting is when you can look down to it or you have the mountain in behind.
00:49:43
Speaker
It doesn't seem so far, it doesn't seem to have any electrical properties and so on. Some other strange thing is that when we have managed to take an optical spectrum, there has been what we call a continuous optical spectrum which
00:50:10
Speaker
could indicate, well, for instance, a solid type of material can be, if you think of heat and such kind of thing, that could give a continuous spectrum. But when this thing is moving very fast without any sound at all, for instance,
00:50:41
Speaker
the light which we measured to 30 000 kilometers an hour by looking on the radar which was also seen by the people outside the looking at the light without any sound you should expect if it was any kind of solid thing you should have expected some sound from it
00:51:09
Speaker
that haven't been noticed or observed in this. And also we have stories where people can see it just coming out from nowhere, starting to glow or even object has been seen like that.
00:51:40
Speaker
and can also just disappear out from nowhere. We have also measured or followed it on our radar screen when we haven't seen anything where the radar say it is something. And that has been a very often strong radar reflection
00:52:08
Speaker
Well, there's something solid in the sky somewhere, but you can't see it. That's amazing. Yes. We have discussed this with a radar expert and explained that we didn't see anything. And the only thing that they could think of, which could give such a big, strong radar,
00:52:38
Speaker
Eco was a local iron field, you know, plus and minus, much of minus in a short period, a short area or volume that could give such a big reflection. But if that's the case, how could this
00:53:06
Speaker
be made how could this occur. So we have some things which I would say it's strange and also especially if you think of type four observations where people see what they, it seems like an object and
00:53:36
Speaker
That is also hard to explain as a natural phenomena.
Scientific Experiments and Findings
00:53:46
Speaker
And the movement is also without any sound, etc.
00:53:54
Speaker
And very, very interesting. I always suggest that it's very unlikely that something out of the natural world, per se, has there been any sort of, how can I say this, like, signs of intelligence or interaction? So what I'm trying to say is, is there
00:54:17
Speaker
Is there something to suggest that there's some sort of intelligence involved in these phenomena? I would say, well, first of all, it's a very difficult topic. What should be defined as intelligent? Although we have had some very few, I would say very few observations and happenings, which could
00:54:46
Speaker
indicate that and of course it I must say could indicate because it may also be other topic as well because it's very difficult to go into that but I can mention only on one experience we did we used a weak laser pointing at the flashing light coming during the fieldwork
00:55:14
Speaker
not a strong laser. When we pointed the laser beam towards this flashing, it changed the flashing frequency. We took the laser down again after some seconds and the flashing went back to normal again. It seems to be some kind of
00:55:38
Speaker
interaction or some kind of reaction or whatever, even if our laser was very weak, only one milliwatt. We did that test for nine times and the eight of those nine times, this thing happened. And if you bring in another happening, maybe in connection with this one, that was
00:56:08
Speaker
sighting very local to where the station or station was. People was just outside. It was three people. And there was a red light moving around their feet. So it was very close. And it looked like the same color as the laser we had used
00:56:38
Speaker
Actually, one week earlier, it was still during the fieldwork, and this red light moving for some seconds around the feet of the observers, and it looked like the same type of light we had used as our laser, red beam of light.
00:57:07
Speaker
So when we did the checking with observers of this light and asked them if it was like this, I was pointing the laser towards the ground for snow. And you can imagine when it's snow and you point the red laser to it, it's on the ground and the snow is illuminating, red.
00:57:37
Speaker
or reflecting red, and the witness to this red light around the feet, they said it was just like this, but it was just a little bit weaker. That's not happening in combination with the laser test we did, that someone will say that
00:58:05
Speaker
answer or whatever, or just pointing a laser to them. But of course, it's very, very difficult. You cannot say that. It doesn't prove intelligent. No, but thanks for sharing this anecdotal evidence. I think it's very important to even
00:58:31
Speaker
Even if an alternative theory might make sense, it's important to record everything. And so thanks a lot for sharing this. Very interesting. So I gathered you collected data with different technical instruments, radar, Geiger counters, magnetic measurements, et cetera.
00:58:54
Speaker
Are there any physical traces left by these phenomena? Did you do ground sample analyses? Is there any physical trace? In histone, it's very little physical samples or where you can say they have landed or something. We have found some, but we cannot say that
00:59:22
Speaker
These are due to the phenomena, it can be maybe some other happenings. So in Hestan we don't have. But we have another happenings in another part of Norway, also in the winter time, where people were seeing a similar light as in Hestan, yellow light type 2 coming into the space.
00:59:51
Speaker
this mountainous area where there was located. There was in a cottage, in fact, it was dark outside, it was snow. There was become aware of this light coming in the rally. And they saw this light go down to the snow. And when it went down to the snow,
01:00:21
Speaker
Well, first of all, the snow eliminated very much because of the light. It reflected right from the observation. But the light itself suddenly turned off or become much weaker when it touched the ground. And after some very few seconds, it slowly went up again.
01:00:51
Speaker
When it did that, it slowly increased the intensity again, and it moved back in the same direction, not up, but it was following the valley. They could see the hillside in the background, so it was down in the valley. When it was moving away, it slowly increased the intensity again.
01:01:19
Speaker
They went to the location to see if there was any track, and it was. Some days later, we managed to take samples of the snow, both in the track and also reference samples
01:01:46
Speaker
and found out that the amount of bacteria in the snow where the track was, it has been decreased. It was another type of bacteria. It seems that the bacteria had been killed. And the nearest reference was only, I think,
01:02:14
Speaker
If I remember a little bit more than one meter away from the fact, it was a normal amount of bacteria in the snow. And also, like the other reference samples we took, it was quite normal. And it was another type of bacteria because it had, when you measure the bacteria, you grow and so on.
01:02:39
Speaker
And the bacteria who were still alive in the tract itself was a different type, which the analyzer said is a type of bacteria which are more hard to kill. Was there any sign of radiation in that area? We didn't measure radioactive radiation at that time. We only took samples from the snow.
01:03:10
Speaker
But a very fascinating case because it shows that there was some sort of interaction or at least impact from the UAP on its environment. I'm wondering because with many UFO cases in history, there have either been good effects or bad effects on human individuals, observers, experiences, whatever you want to call them. Have any of these
01:03:40
Speaker
happened in Hestalen because quite a few people have been there by now. Is there anything reported in terms of effects on humans? I would say no, not what we are aware of. The humans up there, well, some of them in the beginning, very few of us, a bit afraid, of course, because when this happening just outside your
01:04:10
Speaker
window, moving a big light and not so far away from your house, illuminating inside the house. It's a reason to be a little bit concerned, a little bit afraid to say the least. But not so if this happened for
01:04:38
Speaker
Many times, as I mentioned, at the most we had 20 observations a week at the most during the early 80s. So the local people up there started to be everywhere. Even if it was strange, they weren't afraid of it anymore.
01:05:08
Speaker
I haven't heard of any damage or anything for the people up there.
01:05:19
Speaker
Maybe I can say not dangerous. Yeah, no, that's very interesting. Yeah, because as I said, sometimes with UAPs, you do get effects on humans. And I believe also Gary Nolan recently has been talking about quite a bit in the US.
Modern Approaches and Future Plans
01:05:41
Speaker
So very interesting and good to hear, because then I'm more inclined to actually visit Hestalen soon. So yeah, that's good.
01:05:49
Speaker
Yes so we're still in the 1980s and moving forward a bit chronologically so I believe in the 1990s the phenomenon slowed down a bit. You already said that the
01:06:04
Speaker
main period was in the early eighties but in the nineties you installed the automatic measuring system. Could you perhaps briefly talk a bit about this? Yes, as I mentioned I had the presentation now become aware that it still continued back in 1993.
01:06:30
Speaker
When I had the presentation, I also decided to start the project again, and then I was working at the University College, and it was started from that place. I had been to several conferences, so I invited those scientists, maybe most of it physicists, to a conference in Heston, which took place in 1994, where we discussed the phenomena
01:06:59
Speaker
And I also decided to instead of running fieldwork again, maybe we should set up an automatic station with cameras, record, computer system, detecting what's happening. I use my topic for my students at the University
01:07:28
Speaker
college to build such a cabin, blue box. In fact, it was installed in 1998 after they had been working on it for different groups. So from 1994 to 1998, it was ready to be installed in Hestown and it was running. As I mentioned, you have cameras and you have
01:07:58
Speaker
computer who analyze pictures from the camera and if something light shows up, it record and send the alarm pixels to our server. That station has been in development, it has been
01:08:26
Speaker
giving data a long period of time. Even if we had some instruments in there, we had some cameras and computers and so on, and we had gathered a lot of interesting pictures of the phenomena, mostly
01:08:55
Speaker
flashing lights though but also other yellow type 2 lights which has been gathered automatically from this station which people can look at if they go to www.hestalen.org Hestalen with 2s Hestalen
01:09:22
Speaker
The data is inside there. I would say that even if the station has been in operation, the equipment inside has never been really professional. Really good cameras, really good computer equipment and so on. But we have managed to get some data anyway.
01:09:53
Speaker
Now we are working with getting, we are building, we are making a new what we call project system. It's not connected to our university college anymore. It's a group of us again who want to make new instruments, bring new instruments into the station.
01:10:21
Speaker
There's a group now, more people who are experts. And the plan of building this new, what we call blue box, is in the progress just now. So I believe when we got really good instruments, really good cameras, and really good other instruments as well, which we know that the phenomena can
01:10:51
Speaker
get into, for instance, the radar, we have the magnetometer, etc. I'm very hopeful that we'll get maybe a breakthrough, I hope so, when we have this in operation.
01:11:09
Speaker
Yes, and I think Project Estalen really occupies a unique position in that it's a civilian research effort into understanding the phenomenon and I think the work you did is amazing because you
01:11:28
Speaker
thought creatively how to manage this project, how to set it up with limited amounts of funding. So I read that you involve your students and you just said that you involve them and that you bring them there to help you and to study the phenomenon. And I think that's so great because it shows that
01:11:53
Speaker
You know we can actually manage to study the subjects that are currently frowned upon by thinking creatively and I mean just thinking back at my university days I mean how cool would that have been to go to a remote area to study UFOs. You must have a very popular course at university I imagine.
01:12:20
Speaker
Yes, the students love it. Yes, of course. And we also had some activity for younger students, which hadn't been a student at University College. We had also an activity for younger students, which we call science camp, where we bring these up to Hestan, where they stay together with their teachers.
01:12:50
Speaker
a class and their teachers we give them instruments and tents and where they stay out in the in the mountainous area it's a little bit tough it's cold but it's very popular because something really happening they're studying and they're trying to
01:13:16
Speaker
get the correct data for their analyzing themselves, the young students. So the engagement from these students is enormous. So we use that as a topic, not only for mystery, but also teach them
01:13:43
Speaker
a little bit mathematics and a little bit physics and a little bit nature and so on. And they learned a lot. So if someone, if there is any teacher who have students or young students and they have a local place where they can go out, bring them out in the nature, looking for a mysterious thing,
01:14:14
Speaker
That's very good. You should do that.
01:14:17
Speaker
Absolutely, and I think that's also where the future of this field lies, UAP studies, because with the older generation, there's still a lot of biases and stigma attached to it, but bringing young people to it who don't know all the historical baggage attached to the subject, I think it's really the right way forward, and I think that looks quite promising for the future.
01:14:43
Speaker
Now, look, Erling, you've been very generous with your time. I do have one or rather two final big questions, the best always for the end. So we already touched on it a bit. It's kind of weird, isn't it, that you have this small valley in the middle of nowhere that has been such a hot spot.
01:15:08
Speaker
Why is that? Would you be willing to share any theories or opinions on that? Because I suppose it's still an unresolved issue. Yes. Why does it happen here in the small Norwegian valley? We have asked that question a lot, of course. And we have thought of different things. One of the things that the
01:15:35
Speaker
geophysics, the mountains. Is there something specific in that mountainous area? We have had scientists, geophysicists, who have done investigation up there, and they found results which I think are interesting, unusual and magnetical things among electrical properties, etc.
01:16:07
Speaker
They say it's a little bit unusual. They haven't measured like these other places. But from there, to say that this is the reason why it happened, that's a big step. We don't know.
01:16:26
Speaker
No, thanks. That makes sense. It's probably up to future research to resolve this issue, but definitely an enigma. Ever since I've been following your work, I've been asking myself this as well. Why a small remote valley in Norway?
01:16:44
Speaker
And the final question I have is, it's great to see that you're still continuing work in Hasdalen and actually have more things planned. So what is the next chapter in a few sentences? Well, the next chapter is to make a plan for getting supporters for a new project, because if you have enough
01:17:12
Speaker
people who can support us with not much money, a little bit money, which most people, I think, can afford. If enough people do that, well, then we get enough funding to get the activity, to get the instruments to bring out the data to people, because our plan is to these new instruments we are
01:17:41
Speaker
We are planning to bring in to Hestan good quality instruments that of course cost money, so we need some money. And also we are planning to let the data out to people. I've always done that because I think there are researchers maybe around which can study the data
01:18:11
Speaker
and maybe use that data as a new thing. So the new thing is that people can become members of Project Test Down. The website www.testdown.org will soon be changing, and it will be much more easy for people to give a little bit of support. And for those who do that,
01:18:41
Speaker
they would get something extra, something data which are not common for everyone, et cetera. So we are in the process of making this.
01:18:54
Speaker
Perfect. What a great note to close on, and I'll make sure to include the link to your website in the description of this episode. Look, Erling, you've been very generous with your time. I can only say thanks a lot, and thanks so much for making all your data available online. It's been a tremendous resource over the last years.
01:19:18
Speaker
You know, really looking forward to seeing what's happening in the near future. So thanks a lot. Thank you very much.