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Community, Belonging, and the Wild: A Conversation with Trenton Schulz-Franco
751 Plays12 days ago
In this episode, we sit down with Trentön Schulz-Franco, founder of the Special Bird Service Society in Canada. SBS is an outdoor community rooted in Victoria and Vancouver that is redefining what belonging in nature can look like. Special Bird Service centers Black, Indigenous, and other people of colour, as well as 2SLGBTQIA+ folks, creating intentional spaces where people feel safe, seen, and genuinely welcome outdoors.
Our conversation explores the difference between access and belonging, the personal journey that led Trentön to build SBS, and the responsibility outdoor leaders carry when guiding people on colonized land. We talk about healing, joy, storytelling, and the power of community-led spaces to transform our experience of nature. Trentön shares affirming moments from SBS gatherings, the challenges of growth, and what it takes to protect a community’s soul while expanding its reach.
This episode is a reminder that birding and outdoor culture can be places of care, accountability, and connection when community comes first. If you’ve ever wondered what it looks like to build a space where people truly belong, this conversation is for you.
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Transcript
Introduction to Season 4
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to season four of the bird joy podcast. Your hosts Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall are back with more birds, more bird joy and plenty of laughs along the way.
00:00:11
Speaker
Each episode brings new stories, fun conversations and a whole flock of good vibes. We're happy you're here. We really miss the homies and we hope you enjoy this season.
00:00:23
Speaker
You ready?
Guest Introduction: Trenton Schultz-Franco
00:00:24
Speaker
Let's go. Welcome back to the Bird Joy Podcast. Today we are joined by ah homie, someone I have admired for a long time. Today we are joined by Trenton Schultz-Franco, founder of the Special Bird Service Society in Canada, an outdoor community rooted in Victoria and Vancouver with a clear and powerful mission to build spaces of belonging and nature for Black, Indigenous, and other people of color, as well as 2SLGBTQIA plus folks.
00:00:56
Speaker
Trenton's work sits at the intersection of birding, ecology, justice, storytelling, and community care. Through special bird service, he's helping reimagine what birding and outdoor spaces can look like when they are led with intention, joy, and
Creating Inclusive Outdoor Spaces
00:01:11
Speaker
accountability.
00:01:11
Speaker
This is not just about getting people outside, but about creating environments where people are feeling safe, seen, and genuinely welcome. Trenton brings a background shaped by multiple disciplines, including ecology, photography, guiding, and community organizing.
00:01:28
Speaker
And his leadership reflects a deep understanding that access alone is not enough. Belonging is what truly matters. We're excited to talk today about community building, storytelling, outdoor justice, joy, and what it really takes to create a space in nature for people who have historically been excluded from it.
00:01:46
Speaker
Trenton, Homey, Welcome to the Bird Joy podcast. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Jason and Dexter, truly. You got it, man. Man, we, like he we've been watching and admiring the work that you're doing up there with the special bird service. I remember I got so fired up. I got a ah mailing from y'all up there with some stickers in it and some stamps on the letter and stuff. I was just like, they get it. They are doing the work up there and it's so exciting. I can get up there one of these days and go birding with y'all up there in Canada. You've worn many hats over the years. What was the moment or realization that led to you founding Special Bird Service?
00:02:29
Speaker
and It's funny you said that I wear a lot of hats because I actually work for a land trust right now that's called HAT. It's Habitat Acquisition Trust. I thought i actually use that joke a lot. Literally, yeah. think I'm a hat that I'm wearing. But where it all started for me really was like my whole life has been, I've had the really privilege to have ah experiential education opportunities in the outdoors. And so that really was the catalyst for me was like living on ah on a bog when I was younger or living on a street that was on a bog. So having...
00:02:58
Speaker
like a wetland nearby. a great horned owl lived at the in the Gary Oak at the end of my drive. And so there was like pellets on the driveway. And so it's just kind of like started there when I was really young. And then ah through all the cool opportunities I've experienced throughout my life and had the privilege to experience, I thought to myself and and saw the direct need within the community of like, hey, can we get those opportunities going for more people?
00:03:21
Speaker
especially those within our communities have historically been excluded from spaces like this. Dang, that sounds so familiar, doesn't it, Jason? It really does. Wow. There was this need. We felt the need to to be a part of the solution, create these spaces. And I'm so happy you did that. And you can kind of see the impact that you're having up there.
Growth of Special Bird Service
00:03:41
Speaker
And and it's just it's so fun to watch, man. It's so fun to watch.
00:03:45
Speaker
Thank you. really appreciate it. But I truly cannot take credit for it myself. Like it's really a massive community of people, of volunteers who get involved. And, you know, most of them are my family members. Like the first walk was literally seven people and five of them are my family members that I kind of like dragged out of course to come out. So it all starts there. And, you know, like in the last year, we were able to do like over 45 events with over a thousand people attending, which was really, really huge for us. Impact. Yeah, man, that's, that's like super incredible. And like, was this, so you said it was, it was like what, five seven people, most of them were relatives, right? So how did that, did you, did you know at that moment, like you were gonna, you were gonna do this, right? Or was that more of an informal kind of start to it that spurred on the more formal special bird service?
00:04:32
Speaker
Well, from then, actually, like I just kind of had this feeling of I knew where I wanted it to go. And so, you know, there was there's kind of been different iterations, but this is really where things went in in February of 2021 when we started SPS. And so, yeah, we just heard what the community needed, saw our own needs, took in our own experiences and tried to build that into comprehensive programming for the community. And this sounds super familiar to in color birding and BIPOC, I tell you what, it does. In 2021, like, it we were all 2020, 2021, like everybody was just like, it was like we had this hive minds and everybody was like that. We're in. So that's super awesome to hear. Even our homies in Canada.
00:05:15
Speaker
Trenton, kind of staying there, was there a specific experience that made the need for the special bird service impossible for you to ignore? Like, was there was there like this spark event or so our aha moment or a specific experience that said, we need this?
00:05:31
Speaker
So I went to university in the UK. I'm originally from Victoria here in Canada. I moved away in 2013 to go to university in the UK. And it was actually my roommate in university, Danny, who took me to like a community birding event for BIPOC folks only in the UK.
00:05:46
Speaker
And then i I saw that space and experienced that space and was like, wow, we need this at home. There's just no questions about it. ah Yeah, and I originally tried to bring that arm of an an arm of that organization out here as well. ah But unfortunately, the values didn't line up and no harm, no foul. And we moved on and made our own thing. and started
Access vs. Belonging in Nature
00:06:04
Speaker
the special bird service. And from there, it's really been taking flight. Excuse the pun.
00:06:09
Speaker
I like it. I love a good, love a good pun. you know, growing up, you mentioned living on a, living on a bog, which sounds incredible. It sounds so whimsical. What kind of messages were you receiving? Like maybe up through when you even went to the UK about who the outdoors was for, were you supported in the outdoors? Did you see communities not being supported in the outdoors in the neighborhood that you were in? Like, how did that, how did that look for you? Where I live in Canada is is pretty multicultural and were we're really privileged to be able to have a a great access to the outdoors, like really close by. And so there are the opportunities are is there are there, but that doesn't mean access, like opportunity doesn't equal access directly, right? like We all know this. I think the main piece that I was privileged enough to experience was the education piece in the outdoors was like, and get access to the gear, get access to guides, get access to teachers or folks that have an understanding of these events or these activities and can share that experience with us.
00:07:01
Speaker
And so we can we can try in ah in a challenge by choice or in a challenging environment, but that still has those safety precautions built in as well. um Here, there still is a lot of ah racial, ah socioeconomic and demographic factors that build into access and opportunities in the outdoors. So, you know, i experienced it firsthand, also had the the privilege of having parents who supported me to be able to go after those opportunities as well. um And so it was kind of like a, ah it it represents a lot about me, to be honest, because like I come from a multicultural family, I'm biracial. And so like that also having one foot in each world or one foot in and one foot out kind of thing, if you think about it, it's very similar for that experience for me as well. was like, I did feel supported, but I did, ah didn't feel the most included or the most like welcomed. i don't think there was necessarily like
00:07:56
Speaker
cultural safety built into like sure events when I was a kid kind of thing. I don't really think that was that was thought of. Yeah, just trying to be that that uncle or that dad or that like sort of father figure or that person in the community that is like sharing those experiences I had when I was younger in a way that is even more positive or like leaving it a bit more positive than than when I had them. That's really incredible to hear like just that you were supported. You were pushed into nature of like, yeah, just go outside, you know, see some stuff, explore in the bog, be safe. It wasn't necessarily like when you got there that there were systems and structure and and welcoming set up. Right. And it's just a really interesting, pet like the way you kind of present that, right. It's like all this enthusiasm heading out the door and then getting there and being like, I have to untangle this a little bit. Right. Like where there Were there moments that you can remember where you had to justify your presence in the outdoors when you were coming up? I think on the ski hill or like snowshoeing, something in Canada, that's a pretty um universal experience or a pretty accessible experience for a lot of people in Canada. And so it ah can be anyways.
Influence of Personal Experiences
00:09:03
Speaker
And and so there there are a lot of barriers to access still with with the gear, traveling to the mountain and things like that.
00:09:09
Speaker
But I think there was a sort of this moment for me in 10th grade, I was part of this experiential program and at my school. And basically we we dropped all of our non-essential classes. So we did math, science, English, and one language. And all of our days ended at lunch and we would go ah help out at the local industrial nonprofit complex, like the United Way and all those places. in the afternoon. And then on the Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we would go surfing, sailing, kayaking, canoeing every weekend or like one weekend a month kind of thing or two weekends a month. And so i had access to all these different outdoor opportunities with the gear ah provided by the school or rented kind of thing with guides who also attended and showed us how to do things. um And so
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, I did really feel supported in that respect. It's hard to say if there's like one memory that that stands out. But that grade 10 year or the 10th grade year was really the the caveat for me or the the real crux of things of changing and being like, yeah.
00:10:11
Speaker
ah there's this whole other aspect of things like, yes, it's challenging. Yes, you get wet, you get cold, you are outside for long periods of time, but there's something about like experiencing that and ah taking that in its stride and and feeling like you accepted that for what it was and not really overcame it, but were able to persevere through it. And and that memory of the experience was often that huge driver for me in my life and trying to um bring other people into having those memories or experiences as well.
00:10:43
Speaker
You talked about early on, you would show up in some spaces and not always necessarily feel welcomed, but then also having opportunities like you just talked about where you did feel supported as well. How did those various experiences shape the values that you've built for the special bird service?
00:11:02
Speaker
I think just having ah ah wider understanding coming from a household from different countries, um that gave me the understanding that a greater understanding of people thinking differently or that there's a a real spectrum of how people think and experience things. And so having those separate viewpoints allowed me to see that, hey, there's probably viewpoints that I'm not privy to or or can't understand or can't see. And so having that ability to take on new information really and and open your horizons to, oh, you know, maybe this how I've thought about things isn't really the way it is and and learning from those experiences and also not being harsh on ourselves too. Like, you know, i heard this great quote where it says, um you're not responsible for your first thought, but you are responsible for the action afterwards. And I think that really, really informs well the the feeling that I kind of described there of of like, you might not always know the right thing to do or the right way to go about things, but if you come with care and respect and reciprocity, that we can usually figure out a way way through things.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i I really love that. Right. and And it's, it's, I think the most interesting part is we talked to so many people from different environments, right. And different upbringings and you had sounds like a, you know, say pretty good access to and support in nature and some different things there.
00:12:19
Speaker
But you didn't leave that as, oh, well, it must be like this for everyone. Like there was something in it that made you aware that it wasn't like that for everyone. And you took all those values and said, regardless of maybe The privilege I had in some spaces of my life growing up, I'm still going to turn around and give this back. And I think that's really special. And it's also a story that we don't hear as often, right? Sometimes we hear people where they grew up with nothing and then they built the opportunity and you grew up with more than maybe most, but then turns around and make sure that no one else has to have nothing, which is really, really awesome. You talked about
00:12:53
Speaker
the difference between access and belonging, which again, i don I don't think a lot of us talk about as much as we probably should. Can you can you unpack that a little bit for folks hearing that the first time? Yeah, sure. I think it also like lends more to the answer of of your dexter your question, Dexter, as well about experiences that I've had too. And and just like even though I was supported and had those experiences and had the ability and stuff like that, like a lot of the folks that I saw out on those trips or yeah the folks that instructed those trips or ah the people that we would see out on those trips who were on their own trips doing it as well, but separately, they were almost always of one shade and one background. Yeah, sure. And so that really, you know, that representation, that um that understanding, ah if you if you see people in the outdoors doing things that look like you or that maybe have a similar life experience to you or you feel drawn towards, that almost always ah encourages you and makes you feel like you can also be there and feel comfortable.
00:13:51
Speaker
For me, like the access and and and belonging, they they are two important pieces of the puzzle that that we try to ah fit together at SBS. and And what I hear you guys are also doing with your groups too, is just really not only providing the opportunities for folks to go out and do that, but providing the opportunities for folks to go out and do that with people who look like them, have similar experience experiences, come from the same demographics. And if not,
00:14:19
Speaker
come to the space with reciprocity and care and an open mind and a willingness to learn from and with each other. I love that so much. i always tell people there's nothing like being out and and you got some kids with you in the group and they're using binoculars for the first time, right? And all a sudden they put the binoculars up and they're like, I see it, I see it And they get all excited. How do you feel when you see people visibly, like visibly relax once they realize they belong at one your events? is it like a similar feeling, you know, like when you just like, you see somebody in there, like, ah, like they're just being themselves in nature. How's that, how's that feel as, as somebody that leads events for folks?
Event Design for Inclusivity
00:15:02
Speaker
I get really amped up. Like it it gets me excited. And so like I have a hard time because I know it's like a restorative and relaxing thing as well. So I have a hard time not like Being overloaded with joy, just because I do love birding and seeing birds, but also seeing other people experience, you know, lifers or seeing something that they've only seen far away or not got great looks at. That really is like almost like payment for me. I'm like the buildup of seeing all these people like... have those first experiences or like have experiences like I've had and you know maybe they might not feel the exact same way but I could tell from their body language or the way that they're talking like they're also excited or or fired up in some way too so it's it's almost contagious because like you know like I said like the first walk that we did was five of them were my family members and and actually like the the board at SBS is all my family members and stuff like that we we just ah operate on a really like trust-based efficient manner that makes things work. like We're not a charity, we're a not-for-profit, which is separate thing here up in Canada. And so um we're able to run efficiently and trust-based and and just have like a circular leadership structure where you know we don't need to send something upstairs and get it signed off by ah a board of directors and stuff like that. like we can We can do things just by talking about it. And so, like yeah. And that's
00:16:19
Speaker
has translated to our events, you know, like where we just go out and and exist, you know, there, it doesn't have to be a huge thing. Like we just go out and spend time outdoors. I love it. Yeah. yeah yeah I was going to ask, ah how do you, so how how do you design experiences that signal safety, you know, without having to explain it? Cause I think that's something I see on your posts, right? It's like, everybody seems comfortable. Right. And I know there's probably effort that goes into making sure that our, whether you guys are on land or, you know, as jealous as I am on a boat somewhere looking at cool stuff. So like, how do you, how do you do that? You said it's not said, and although it's not said in every single post, it is said in numerous places, like in our, uh, community agreements for our walks in our, uh, membership structure, when people join, uh, it's in all of the emails that they get sent when they sign up through our links.
00:17:10
Speaker
We share that our our pillars are mental health advocacy. experiential education, recreation and stewardship, and that involves ah like intercultural and cross-generational learning spaces. And so if people come, like we've talked about, with risk reciprocity, respect and care, also with curiosity too, then people people are welcome.
Pillars of Special Bird Service
00:17:32
Speaker
and so By sharing that in all those forms, but then also starting in circle, going counterclockwise and sharing names, pronouns, and then usually like some bird fact or like bird memory of late. Or, you know, sometimes we come up with like a silly question, like what's your favorite sauce? What's your favorite dessert? Like something like that, just to like.
00:17:54
Speaker
break it down to like, it just doesn't have to be about birds because some people aren't interested in in birds when they first come to the walk. But then you get them, though, right? But then you get them, though, right? Yeah, I know you do.
00:18:09
Speaker
I think we might have to add what's the favorite sauce to the lightning round. yeah I love it. Yeah. this is out Drop it in. That is fantastic. That is fantastic. You talked a little bit about the opening. I really enjoy that. We do very similar thing. We get in circle, and introduce ourselves, prowl nouns, ask some questions like right now, what's your favorite winter activity or what's your favorite winter bird? What's a winter bird you wish you could see or a bird you wish you could see? If you're not into birds, what is your favorite thing to do outside? So very similar. And I noticed that when we're able to do that, we can set the tone immediately. Walk us through like a typical SBS gathering after that. You know, like what should somebody expect when they show up to your events? Yeah, so um Khalid Boudreaux, our education director, he's planned our events really to follow migration.
00:19:02
Speaker
And so ah what's going on for us is, ah you know, January we take off, February we start getting into things again. And we start from there. And so our our circle starts, we do our our intros. And then we usually, it honestly just kind of flows from there really naturally. ah Because often birds will fly over us or around us, or we'll be hearing things as we're in the circle. And then it's kind of just like, we let Khalid loose, and and then he just finds a whole bunch of stuff. And he hears a whole bunch of stuff, and then people just kind of follow him. I love that. Somebody in the back like, release the Khalid. Yeah, basically. And and that's for our mainland walks on but in Vancouver. Here on the island, um things are, I would say, like ah on the more relaxed side. We just have like monthly drop-in, drop-out BIPOC birding. And then we try and plan events, like we mentioned, on the mainland.
00:20:00
Speaker
in line with what's happening with the seasons, like with migration and what's happening with the seasons changing. So, you know, like late winter, like waterfowl stuff all up until March. Then March, really, the migration starts here and it just kind of goes crazy until midsummer when it drops off. And then in the fall, we do salmon stuff, um shorebird stuff in August before the salmon stuff. And then we do... Nice.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. And then we try we're trying to ti tie it all in together this year. ah In the last year, we've made a real concerted effort to tie in, hey, like let's understand what makes this bird appear here or what makes this bird want to come and hang out in this spot. And and so that led us to the understanding of, oh, most often native plants are housing bugs or housing habitat that the birds hang out in. Oh, well, if there's invasives, not only are they lower calorie-wise for the birds, but they're also not as nutrient-dense. And so migratory birds prefer native plant species over invasive species. And so we're trying to tie that into, okay, now what about fish?
Honoring Indigenous Traditions
00:21:05
Speaker
And so understanding how salmon play a role in the ecosystem when salmon invasives. eaten by a wolf or a bear and it gets taken out of the river and dropped in the forest. It then decomposes through mycelial network and different things to become part of the soil nutrients, which then gets reuptake into trees. So they've actually found salmon DNA in trees now in BC. And so it's really incredible to to just tie all of the things together. And, you know, we talk about the birds that eat salmon eggs, like the dippers and things like that. So
00:21:35
Speaker
you know, it's really incredible to just try. And I guess it's just really, as we're learning about things and learning with people, we're trying to share that experience and those learnings with other people as well. I need to see a dipper.
00:21:46
Speaker
Oh, man. your life i need to see a dipper, bro. I've never seen one. And every time I see a video, I feel some kind of way, you know? They're so special. up I'm just like, why got why y'all don't want to hang out here? We got a lot we got a lot of water in Wisconsin. you dot want to do but you want to here you i heard that they're an indicator about water quality.
00:22:11
Speaker
So they only exist in certain, ah or like their main habitat is like streams of super high water quality. Yeah. Yeah. I did a ah an episode of Just the Zoo of Us podcast and I had to had to explain the American Dipper. And that was that was one of the things. They are really incredible. I think I saw my first one. i was out. looking for one and I found one and I also saw my first moose and this was in like northern Idaho.
00:22:36
Speaker
Nice. So that was a great bird walk that day. Although the moose was a mother and had ah ah a babe with her. So I was like, I better hide her or she's going jack me up. So you you mentioned, um,
00:22:46
Speaker
you know learning as you go and and being out in these spaces and trying to connect things. and And you all operate, SBS operates in Victoria and Vancouver. These places have really deep indigenous histories, right? So how do you honor the place, honor the land while you're welcoming people in and make sure that they understand that aspect of the space that they're in? Yeah, for sure. We we take it as like a ah really big responsibility as people who occupy these territories. So where we live, and this is actually what I wanted to try and get into when we're talking about the circle. There's just so many amazing things to talk about with you guys, so i appreciate the space. But yeah, in the in the circles, we start and we go counterclockwise, and that's actually tradition a Coast Salish tradition. Many peoples here on the shared tradition shared territory of the Lekwungen-speaking peoples, which is the Esquimalt and Kosapsam nations, and the Hosseinich communities here on southern Vancouver Island. They're part of what's called the Coast Salish Language Group. And um yeah here on on these lands, people go counterclockwise in circles.
00:23:42
Speaker
So that that's just like a small way that that we do it. And so by incorporating not only like small things like that, but also Sanchothan language, like where I was born is Hosenich territory. And so I've become very interested in Sanchothan is the language that Hosenich people speak. And I've become very interested in, specifically, ah my road wrote into the Senchothan language was through ah bird names. Wow. Because why um they're often, i think it's, ah I forget what the word is, but there's an English word that describes, when you name something, it describes the sound that it makes, essentially. And so a lot of the indigenous, or a lot of the Senchothan language words for birds are actually like,
00:24:22
Speaker
what ah local communities interpret the sound to be like. So theyre like Stellar's J, like this chia, and it so it's like sounds like the loud Stellar's J call. Yeah, chia, chia. Yeah, and hummingbird is squatchily, which sounds like the Anna's hummingbird wings. Yeah. muzzy so So much better than the term for way. That's cool. I mean, it's right there, people. It's right there. Like, we don't have to read. Like, it's right there.
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah. So good, man. Yeah, and um you know, there's many stories we've been told like that of the salmonberry thrush. What is it? The Swainson's thrush. So the Swainson's thrush comes back in June to these lands and starts singing. And that's its really loud forest call then. And it and it starts to sing when the salmonberries are ripe. So people here refer to it as a salmonberry thrush. The salmonberry, change the name now. It's right there. It's on the list. That is so much better. Yeah. Hey, AOS, American Ornithological Society, right here you. I know some of y'all listening, too. My God, please.
00:25:22
Speaker
it's It's not my legend to share, but there is local legends about that bird as well and about the importance that it plays to the local communities as well and to just like knowing what time of season it is and and what to do harvesting-wise, medicine-wise, those sorts of things, too. So... Back to your question, really, it's become like a lifelong learning journey now of like, this is where I'm from.
00:25:45
Speaker
Historically, i am not from here. My people aren't from here, but my parents moved here and tried to make a life here. And so how can I be the best ally, the best, really, I'm an uninvited guest. you know what i mean? So I have to be, ah or I don't have to be, I choose to be as positive and as supportive as an ally as I can be and to commit to continuously learning about the impact, not only of colonization, but the ongoing impacts of neocolonialism. And so, ah just really not ah asking Indigenous people to teach me. i'm i am ah ah trying to understand myself. And then also through SBS, we pay folks to facilitate or we pay folks to give us keynote speeches or we pay folks to share what knowledge they feel comfortable sharing. And sometimes that's just storytelling. Sometimes we just sit around the fire or sit at a place and listen to people.
00:26:41
Speaker
And so that's really what it's about for us is engaging in, like we talked about those curiosity based, but also reciprocal and respect based relationships of of learning about the place that we occupy. Because at the end of the day, that's really what matters is is understanding. Well, this actually, I learned this from birds really is like, if birds are such amazing stewards of their environment, and if I can understand how they're better stewards of their environment, maybe I can understand my place and my environment, how I can be a better steward of my environment, environment a bit better. Wow. I was ah so recently I was I was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and i was there for a climate justice, like a two day like summit.
00:27:20
Speaker
Right. And one of the the speakers there actually gave a land acknowledgement that brought her to tears. So then it it really kind of put me in this space of like, it wasn't just like this, just, oh, I'm checking something off the box. Here's this land acknowledgement. It was like, it was so deep and it was tied to past trauma and current trauma and what we're trying to do with the land now and the respect from the past, but how they're building toward Like it was bro. Like I have never heard a land acknowledgement like that. And she literally cried. You know, and I was just like, that's when you know you get it and you're connected to to the land. Shout out to Pastor Theresa Thomas Boyd, um because that was the person who did it. I was just blown away. And we were at the Black Holocaust Museum when this happened. So like, bro, like all these emotions just were just running through me and we're doing environmental justice work. And it was more than a land acknowledgement. It was it was it was something deeply personal and and reflective. Can you talk to folks who may have an organization, they want a land acknowledgement, they want to create something that really means something, how they could go about that process of learning, right? Like you talked about, but creating something that if you're in the circle and you're going counterclockwise and you're you're introducing these each other, how they could create a land acknowledgement that is really meaningful for the work that they do?
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. That's a great question. And I think that really depends on where you are. It's a very, very location specific. There are some really good resources out there in Canada, and I also know some south of the border as well. But just like the First Nations Health Authority, they have great resources for creating a land acknowledgement. Where I started was I went to six months of decolonization training with Rhiannon Bennett, who is a Musqueam woman, which is ah one of the nations that whose territory is traditionally the Vancouver area. And she had a consulting agency where she would provide ah decolonization training for for organizations. And I got, my brother was working for a Victoria Immigration Refugee Society at the time. And there was, they paid for this training and there was a spot available. And and so I got to sit on on this. And this was for
00:29:38
Speaker
two two-hour sessions a week for six months. And so again, very privileged to have this opportunity to be able to do this. And so this provided me an understanding of just some of the things that ah inform where we are today in the history of Canada. There's just some some really, really horrendous and horrific things that the Canadian government continues to to do to its indigenous to our Indigenous people, to the Indigenous people of of so-called Canada. And so Just providing an understanding, getting an understanding of the history, learning from the past so as we don't repeat the the same mistakes going forward is really where where I would start. Get an understanding of whose territory you are on, where where you live. um There are some resources out there that are ah okay for getting an understanding of generally where you are, but make sure you do a deeper dive, not just whoseland or nativeland.ca or whatever. Do a real deep dive into the local specific nations or bands or tribes or whatever is referred to in in your local area. do a real deep dive into their language, what language group they're part of, ah try to understand what are their like um real things that they care about. And I understand that's really hard to understand from the outside, but often nations on their websites will have, hey, this is the this is the people that we are. So, you know, the Swasinich people, their name means, are they are the saltwater people. They're the people of the saltwater. And so that means they're really interested in salmon, they're really interested in all things water, like clams, ah you know, and so it really depends on where you are and and the nation whose land you're on. So i would really say just take some time, go to the local cultural center, the friendship center, ah go to the museum to understand art, go to a local restaurant that serves indigenous food or indigenous fusion food, go to a university professor who that's their that's their subject and say, i have a couple of questions, whatever it is, right? Like, try to get an understanding of where you are locationally. And then the land acknowledgement, in my opinion, it's really different for people across North America. But
00:31:52
Speaker
my opinion, it's great to have that, that first piece. And then it's, what's really important is what are the actions that we're doing afterwards to follow up on those words? Sure. Yep.
00:32:05
Speaker
Wow. Wow. yeah Thank you. Like this, you know, how valuable this is going to be for so many people. Like this is like, I was just sitting there and absorbing so much, like, yes, we need a new one. First of all. um And I was feeling like that after I heard pastor Teresa talk too, I was just like,
00:32:22
Speaker
It's so much deeper. And I really appreciate the thoughtful way that you walk through all this and and acknowledging, yes, it will be different. It takes effort. It's just not like a quick check box, you know? And I mean, you went through six months of training as well. Like that, just to think about the effort that you put into it. I just, I really appreciate you taking a time to walk through that for our listeners. We have a lot of folks that are, you you know, leading organizations, wanting to create organizations or leading walks for other organizations. So I just, i I feel like this is just like such a gem that you just dropped just here. So thank you for that. I'd love to just round it out with one one more thought too on yeah on this topic. I would really encourage people to try and let go of the shame around getting things wrong, mispronouncing something, being wrong, you know like Really, let's let's shed that. let's let's
00:33:18
Speaker
put effort in and like you said, not tick a box. And also, please do not look down at a sheet of paper. Please, please just say it from from your heart. I don't mind if you if you look down steal yourself against saying a name, ah to towards saying a name of something or somebody's name, but please draw on how you feel ah for this this topic. And you know I recently heard something at a, so my my work background is in law. And so I went to a legal conference recently and it was, they talked about, the person who did the opening talked about something that I'm really thankful for is the ability that I grew up with my parents. I was able to learn my historical familial languages. And that's something that to this day has often been impacted with
Cultural Respect and Reciprocity
00:34:06
Speaker
indigenous communities. They have been excluded from their lands. Their languages have tried to be erased.
00:34:11
Speaker
and told that they're not good or proper or right or whatever. And so, you know, you can even draw something as what seems as small as that and turn that into a land acknowledgement and say like, this is something that has been historically excluded from Indigenous people's rights or existence. So I am thankful for that and and then bring it back to that as you start something. So, you know, there's really endless ways you can do it. And, you know, there's great resources out there. And to just do some research and really dive in to that next level of depth, like you mentioned, Dexter, not just ticking ticking a box or not just ah reading off of a chat GPT land acknowledgement, you know.
00:34:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and i this is, ah we, not not struggle, but we have limited resources out here in Philadelphia for the Lenape folks, Lenape folks that inhabited this region kind of just above DC all the way up into into New York. And there's some there's some more detail there but the majority of them were displaced out to the midwest right and so uh we were able to meet a gentleman who who flew out from the the delaware tribe of indians uh is what they call themselves and you know they're based in oklahoma and they flew out and did a session up here at hawk mountain i was able to meet this gentleman, Jeremy.
00:35:24
Speaker
And just the the part that made me most sad was like, in some parts of North America, there are remaining indigenous folks that continue to inhabit land. Not so much on the East Coast. Like everyone's been displaced in that the eraser erasing of the language language the culture, right? There's so much that's just not there. And so what opportunities do you take when you're out guiding folks, right? To, we talked about the land acknowledgements and just, just being able to kind of make sure that you're starting at the right spot. But when you're out on the trail and you're experiencing nature, like what responsibility do we have as outdoor leaders when we're guiding people on colonized land?
00:36:01
Speaker
Like how do we make it meaningful? How do we keep it joyful? How do we keep it respectful? Like how have you kind of accomplished that? Yeah, um I think we we've had the real privilege again to build relationship with folks who are from the territories that we exist on. And so in building relationship, we've learned things, but also we've hired folks to facilitate and to be out on the land with us to share, you know, what is culturally safe for them to share or like culturally allowed for them to share. Because there's there's often things to local indigenous cultures that aren't for outside worlds to to know. They're just for the the local community. And so, yeah, we try to move with respect and care and reciprocity as we've talked about and and really sharing the things that I've learned that I know that are okay to share from the local ah people and local communities. Things that, you know, connect people to place and space that like, oh, this is a village site or this is, ah oh, you can see that there's a cedar harvesting here. And I think you spoke about a really, really important point. So because of the geographic location of where I live and where I'm from, it's a lot more remote for for colonization to have happened. It was a lot ah more difficult for Indian agents to get out to some of these more remote remote communities on the North Island and stuff like that. And so through the perseverance and care of these communities in upholding their language, their culture, their traditions, their regalia. um we We see and are able to experience and know so much here on on the coast in BC about our Indigenous peoples and their ways of being because there is such a a strong sense of of commitment to reviving and restoring their languages. Like some of my friends often say that like, oh, a word is sleeping. Like we don't know the word for that. the the word is sleeping right now. Like it will come back out. It will awaken eventually. i love that. Yeah. I love that. It's a way to not, not let it die, you know, but, but understand that it's there somewhere.
00:38:07
Speaker
Right. And yeah we just have to stay ready for it. I love that. Yeah. The action piece that we're talking about is, is learning. and then sharing with others. And then how do we keep it joyful and and respectful? I think by by exemplifying those things ourself.
Emotional Complexity in Nature
00:38:23
Speaker
And then, you know, even when it's not those things, you know, when it's not joyful, you know, when sometimes things are sad, like we watched ah a killer whale, an orca and ah two orcas actually, so a baby and a mom and then a humpback whale. And then there was a se a seal, harbor seal on the kelp above it. and And we saw the orca for like two hours, like going after this, this trying to get to the seal and like teaching the baby orca how to like hit the seal off the kelp so it could get it.
00:38:50
Speaker
But the humpback kept getting in the way and trying to stop it. Yeah. and And so you're just sitting there, existing, watching, and something is happening that's nature, it's At other times, we've seen seals killed by pod orcas.
00:39:08
Speaker
pot of orcas and so And they're teaching the young how to hunt. And so they're doing it very slowly. and so and you And you can smell actually when they actually kill the seal because the air smells like cucumber or watermelon. Like it's very, very odd. There's really a slick on the water. yeah. yeah wow You can tell these things. And so I think really how we do how we try and accomplish that is by trying to hold the entirety of the context of the situation. Wow, this is sad. This is exquisitely beautiful. Hey,
00:39:41
Speaker
historically, people that look like us, that have backgrounds like us, wouldn't have been able to see this. Or would this would be an everyday part of our life, but we are now excluded from those experiences or no longer live in our ancestral places. And so those experiences are are different and look like this now. So yeah, trying to hold all of that context at once is the first step that we take, I think, in in trying to hold all of that. Wow. Wow.
00:40:08
Speaker
So many gems being dropped today, folks. I mean, I just, I'll be honest. Jason, like earlier is how lucky I feel to talk with the people that we talk with every week. And this, man, my, I'm full of a lot of gratitude right now and and we're not even done. So this is crazy. You talked about February 2021 and y'all still here. You're still out here doing this.
00:40:33
Speaker
So what's been one of the most affirming moments you've experienced since starting SBS? I think it's the the things that stand out the most are just the repeated either children's joy or just joy in general of people either experiencing birding for the first time, seeing a bird they've always wanted to see, seeing, you know, like an owl or a raptor or something like that, that just like gets them going. And then also,
00:40:58
Speaker
those there's like a scale There's a scale of it. all from from the um the One side of the scale could be the the child's joy, and and the other side of the scale could be you know finding the first ever black swift colony on Vancouver Island um known to Western science. you know So that's really where the scale is. It can go literally from just something as small as somebody experiencing something for the first time and you being that catalyst or being a part of them experiencing it for the first time or all the way up to like a first for Western science and being like, I have no science background, but all of a sudden now I'm feeling like this is all, i like i'm i'm a researcher I'm a species of risk ecologist now and I'm i'm a researcher and all this stuff too, right? So it's like...
00:41:42
Speaker
Yeah, ah's it's really amazing. you can I feel like I have, thankfully, I've had the privilege to be able to explore it to whatever end that I've wanted to so far.
00:41:54
Speaker
And I feel really grateful for those opportunities through the support of my partner and my family and all. just It's amazing to have that those opportunities.
Growth and Support of Special Bird Service
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah. and you And you mentioned that it was it was i just the term family owned or kind of kind of comes to mind. Right. Like and that and that does you know give you an immediate you know point of trust and and understanding. But as you got out into the community, as you started offering the outings, creating space for people to find bird joy, to find joy in nature in general.
00:42:24
Speaker
um to find acceptance. Was there a moment where like you looked up and you were like, whoa, this is really taking off and um this is now is out there. It's bigger than me. It's bigger than just my immediate family. This is now something that belongs to the community. Do you remember that point in time?
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. We actually use a hashtag bigger than birding because that's kind of what it feels like for us. It's like it is bigger than birding. Yeah, there's several moments again. the first year, my brother and I were actually paying for everything ourselves, for like paying for food and paying for people to get food. You just got figure it out. We hadn't incorporated it as a nonprofit or anything like that. also amazing.
00:43:05
Speaker
ah you know My educational background as a lawyer gave me the the skills to be able to do that. right and Even then, I felt lost at some parts. so i I couldn't imagine somebody else who doesn't have that legal background being like, where do where do I start with this? but That moment for me, one of them was just like getting some of the the bigger fashion brands interested. Like, oh, what? like this This company wants to give you $10,000 for people to go outside and watch birds? like Yeah, sure. Let's do it. Sure. Yeah. So just like interesting outdoor brands, like wanting to support in different ways. We've supported well by Patagonia and stuff like that. So yeah, we're really appreciative of of different folks reaching out and, and, you know, Knox has been big as a big as well. Yeah. Knox great.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah. And so, yeah, ArcDirects, we were their strategic partnership for the first three years of our organization as well. So it's been cool to have their support as well. So, yeah, I think that really, for me, coming from like not this, like science, outdoor stuff, like outdoor experiential education was my thing, but not so much like leading and facilitating it myself. I'd always experienced it. And so when these big brands start reached out we're like, hey, like we're interested in supporting you guys doing your work.
00:44:18
Speaker
I'm like, oh, okay, there really is something to this. And, you know, I think testament to that is all three of our groups and all the other groups that all have all exploded at the same time, around the same time anyways, around birding. And I think like I saw a stat that there was like 90 something million birders in America right now alone. So that's like a, that's like a, it's like a 10 year old stat too, I think. Oh really? a Dang. or now Yeah. like Holy it smokes. too Yeah. I think there's more.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yeah. So I think during COVID, it was like the second biggest gaining activity besides something else, probably like golf or something like that, but, or Frisbee golf. But yeah, so, you know, it's it's just, yeah, I feel like it was right place, right time. And then the structure, like support structure in my life and in in the community here, ah it was the right time.
00:45:08
Speaker
And then having my family involved, having people in the, like, I've met some, I've met all of my best friends basically now through SBS. Like, love that yeah, like we we hang out so much outside of school. Outside of school. or outside of school
00:45:24
Speaker
Hey, you are a lifelong learner. I mean, know yeah you're always learning. So it might feel like school sometimes. No, truly. that's kind of what we said before too, is like, yeah sometimes it feels like adult summer camp, you know? So I would love to do a yeah yeah i would love to do ah a birding a birding trip themed, but like just birders, an adult field trip that's themed like Stranger Things. And we only bird on our bikes, and we just ride around some random neighborhood for like seven days. Hey man, i'm I might need to talk to you. We've got a little idea brewing about some burning stuff. So we but we might- Awesome. Yeah. Like really, SBS is just, it's grown from, like I told you, something that I didn't even expect to something just absolutely massive. And along the way, I've just met so many cool people and experienced so many cool things.
00:46:17
Speaker
We're actually at a limit. Like we're we're not going to be able to grow any further. It's just like capacity wise and time and space wise, it's, we're at our at our spot. We feel comfortable, we feel good. You know, we have a staff person. We'd like to continue that and start to build in get an administration person as well and really build that out.
00:46:37
Speaker
And so, yeah, it's just been like a really big learning experience. And what we want to do now is share what has worked for us with other people so that they can have their own thing or do their own thing where they are. Love it. You didn't hear this from me, but you might see us in a city near you in 2026. Love it. listen Be the change, folks. Be the change. And I really love that. You talked about school, right? Education, learning. How do you balance that education with the actual joy, right? I mean, we're thinking about outdoor justice every requires a lot of reckoning with history and and it could be sombering, it could be depressing sometimes. How do you balance that with joy?
00:47:21
Speaker
think grounding myself in like what are the physical truths in front of me as well, like the the what is current in front of me. So like by actually birding, um you know, like by reading about the biodiversity crisis, the climate crisis, and then going outside and birding and being like, oh my God, there there's some cool stuff around me. you know It's not all going to burn up right now.
00:47:42
Speaker
and you know just trying to... you know, one's a gas pedal and one's a brake and you're just trying to apply one and the other when it and whenever whenever they're possible. You know, there's not some magic ah pill or magic book that I read that like makes me feel so much better than everybody else about what's what's going on. Like I definitely feel quite similar to how I imagine you folks feel right now too.
00:48:05
Speaker
and And so how do I balance it is by just trying to ground myself, you know, by trying to be a support for people in my community that I care about who have capacity and time to also support me. And it's not like a transactional thing because ah if somebody needs help, um you know if ah If I can, I'll always be able to try and be able to help. um But yeah, just trying to, like that reciprocity that we talk about, like showing people in SBS community and my friends, like how I want to be treated by treating other people that way. And then, you know, like also explaining and asking for help when I, when I need that help too. And so, yeah, trying to balance it by, you
00:48:47
Speaker
By learning, I try to balance all of it by by learning and by trying to be present and and then also trying to take time away too from from this because I don't know about you guys, but my brain is just kind of going all the time about this sort of stuff. And so it can be hard to to turn it off. And then, you know, sometimes you feel like you're supporting something or someone and then all of a sudden you learn something about them or about something that they support and then you can't can no longer do that or it's it's against your own values to do that. and so The world is just moving so fast these days. i think it's really important that we try and slow it down in every opportunity that we can and at every turn that we can kind of
Maintaining Community Values
00:49:23
Speaker
thing.
00:49:23
Speaker
I love the way you put that too. Like you as you move through the world, you're engaging with these different groups and people and your organization is growing. The community is being invested in the organization. And therefore, the community that you are serving kind of becomes your responsibility. You feel like I have to keep doing what we're doing the way that we need to do it to to protect what we have here. I'm like, how do you go about that? Because you do sometimes like I've experienced this come across partners and you're like, they're not the right, you know, they're not the right fit as you find out more.
00:49:52
Speaker
i find it as just learning how to say no. How do you how do you protect the community's soul or what you've built as as you and your organization grow with the community that you're serving?
00:50:04
Speaker
That's a great question. I think it's really important. like It's another commitment and responsibility as ah as an organizer that I feel like I have. And I think how we've tried to ah meet that head on at SPS is by having monthly meetings with our our members and our and our people who volunteer. And it's just like, it's on Zoom and it's just touch points. Like, hey, this is this is something that we want to talk about. you know We set agenda.
00:50:29
Speaker
So there's there's space for folks to to speak about how they feel, to make suggestions. And then also once the suggestion is made, they're encouraged to be a part of the solution.
00:50:40
Speaker
within the organization or as a part of the organization or however they would like to see that as well. So yeah we try to call people in rather than call people out. So like, uh, just, yeah, i love that man. Call people in rather than call people out.
00:50:56
Speaker
It's so much more, it sounds like such a more effective way of overcoming conflict or maybe difference of opinion. Totally. And, you know, as masculine presenting folks, like a lot of stuff that we deal with, with our fathers and with people in the community is around shame, right? It's around like, oh, i I should be this way. I need to be this way. You know, wanted to be here at this time and in my life or, you know, I need to be this or a man needs to be this. And like, you know, and then so just really like shedding those, though that shame and or talking about it and facing into it, I found is like, okay, I made a mistake. Let me like face into this and rather than hide away from the mistake and run away from it like, let me face into it and learn from it and with it. Yeah. so Yeah. You can't cancel everybody and run away. Like you'll be alone. You know mean? Like, so it's best to just say, Oh, okay. You know, I've made a mistake.
00:51:49
Speaker
I'm sorry. How can I, and I'm not putting it on the other person to tell you how to make it better or be better, like to learn, actively learn and listen to improve your own behavior or the behavior of the community or just to create a safer space. So how we do it is by having these volunteer meetings where people can drop in, drop out and provide their lived experience. You know, they don't need to be an HR guru or anything like that. They can just be like, Hey, I'm 20 and I have this lived experience and I'm going to share that this meeting. because this is what I hear, read, learn, see. So yeah, like value. Beautiful.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's beautiful. That that level of transparency, our groups, groups like ours make people feel seen and heard. That's another level that you're providing to your members to to be able to come in. That's how you build trust.
00:52:37
Speaker
They're literally like they realize that their voice matters, that they're a part of something
Starting Community Outdoor Spaces
00:52:41
Speaker
bigger. Like you mentioned, like this is bigger than you. all Right. um The hashtag that you all bigger than birds. Right. i always tell people burden is in about the bird and it is the community. I've met people like Jason and all the people we get to interview like yourself and some of like the best people I know in my life I've met through burden. And it's just beautiful. And I know you've been dropping, you dropped some hints about possibly coming to cities near, you know, near, you might be traveling and spreading this message of how to create these spaces for people. If you don't happen to go to their their community, if somebody's listening, they want to start something, where do you think they should begin? That's a good question. I would begin like in your in your community and try to find out other people who have similar interests or who have something that they want to offer to a collective or or a group. Ask questions and be curious about like, hey, what's your capacity for for something like this? What's your capacity for going birding once a month? Start start informal. you know You don't need to have a a bunch of binoculars and six scopes to take out a bunch of people birding and like that. that. You know what I mean? like yeah You can just go out and sit in a backyard and listen. It doesn't even have to be with binoculars. you know like That's that access and opportunity thing again, where you know there's the the entry level, there's all the way up to the scientific and research level.
00:54:02
Speaker
Birding historically in a lot of indigenous communities and a lot of black and brown communities has just literally been a part of everyday life. Not this separate thing that we can't do while wearing safari gear or but while carrying this massive camera. It's just Like in South India, like the birds are carry the messages from the stars and and they carry the dreams and hopes of people through through the star through the stars and navigating at night stuff like that. There's just all of these ways of of find, go out birding. and you might Or if if it is birding that you want to create a group around, go out birding and you'll probably meet other birders. Out birding.
00:54:38
Speaker
And that's how you can create networks. And, you know, your your local university might have a birding group. ah You know, there might be a local informal birding group that you can join. Those often have their own perils that come along with them. But, you know, we all know.
00:54:56
Speaker
yeah And, um but yeah, I think that's a good place to start. But if you're feeling like you're isolated and you're alone in wanting to explore some outdoor activity, I would suggest talking to the people that you care about to try and go do that with them first. And then once you're feeling a little bit more comfortable doing it with the people that you care about, try and find some some friends or maybe maybe You meet somebody that also is interested in it while you're out doing it, you know try and find and like try and find other local groups like that are already doing it. So I think that was what I was trying to allude to is like you don't need to reinvent the wheel. There's often like other people out there who are interested in the same thing. I found an incredible community of people who are interested in birds and all of the aspects that come and latch onto birds as the sort of epicenter, you know like the environmental aspect, the social and racial justice aspect.
00:55:56
Speaker
So they're just, yeah. There's a lot. Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot. And I, and i wow, we got so much out of this today, homie. Like just, I, you know, I've always been inspired by what I see from you all on social media and just the way you and I have, we've had a couple of conversations, you know, in the DMs here and there about things. And like, it's just so refreshing to hear you expand on some of these ideas and really the key principles that,
00:56:18
Speaker
that you operate under and, and a special bird service operates under. And so we got to finish off with the hardest part of the interview, yeah which is the lightning round. I'm going ask you some tough questions.
00:56:31
Speaker
And so, you know, I just you're ready. Quick answers and we'll see where you land. All right. Okay. Favorite bird to encounter on an SBS walk or outing.
00:56:44
Speaker
Oh, we stumped him already on the first one. Got him. The Black Round Night Heron at Rifle Bird Sanctuary, it's like the only Black Round Night Heron that nests on the West Coast. And it's just incredible.
00:56:55
Speaker
What? Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I love it. Right? It's just in like a bush on like the side of a trail in this bird sanctuary. It's crazy. I the best spot in the USA.
00:57:07
Speaker
Love it. Favorite migration season? I think it's got to be the northward one in spring. i don't know what the one is, but y'all still have shorebirds in like late November, and it makes me so mad sometimes. Every time I see them. This is nonsense. Yes. The overwinter in the Fraser Delta, some of them. So it's yeah pretty amazing. great One word, if you had to only use one word to describe the special bird service.
00:57:31
Speaker
Intentional. A place in nature that feels like home. I think a Gary Oak meadow. So I think you guys call them white oaks. Yeah, basically there's this in type of endemic oak here on the West Coast that only 2% of its former range remains. And it's like a keystone species essentially and responsible for over 400 other species that live off of it. with it This looks beautiful. a lot i they're They're really truly incredible. They look like something out of a movie. and so Yeah, I had to Google.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yeah. Sweet lord. What's part of their whole ecosystem is the tree is part of it and then there's this wildflower that only sprouts for like a month or flower, sorry, for a month in like April, May. And it's called Camus. And it's basically like a bulb and indigenous people actually, it's it's this center part of their food center, food sovereignty and food network is the Camus bulb.
00:58:27
Speaker
They like slow cook it in pit cooks and would eat the bulb as like a potato type starch. Camas is just, it flowers for such a short period of time, but is the most exquisite blue flower. And it just is, it's exquisite. The whole the whole ecosystem in Gary Oak is just- I gotta be honest, man. I'm really upset about that eight inches of snow covering everything outside my house right now, looking at this picture.
00:58:51
Speaker
All right. Second to last question. Something people might be surprised to learn about you. I play viola. I've played in an orchestra at school. We've got so many musicians in the break. know. This is cool. We need to start coming together somewhere on this because we've got just about everything. Yeah. All or I used to play professional cricket for while.
00:59:13
Speaker
Okay. We should have left the whole interview. We're going to chat in the So much.
00:59:24
Speaker
So much. All right. Last one. Favorite sauce. didn't know you added it. Hey, man. You got it. You got it. I think it's got to be like Like a chili crisp ponzu, like soya mix, you know, like a chili oil, soya with like a little citrus ponzu in there.
00:59:46
Speaker
I think that mix, it just goes well with so many different things. You can put it on everything from like salad to sushi to... Yeah, you had me a chili oil, bro. Exactly. I was so versatile that and then like ah a typical like maybe like a serrano or like a some type of smoked pepper aioli that would be like second i have I'm going to dinner with my wife after this too so it's her birthday today and like I just um yeah I'm gonna have to okay thank you you got my love it you got my Trenton
01:00:16
Speaker
Thank you for the care, the intention, the honesty you bring to this work. Special Bird Services is a powerful reminder that the outdoors can be a place of healing, connection and belonging when community comes first. For everybody listening, we encourage you to learn more about Special Bird Service, support your community led outdoor spaces and reflect on what it means to truly make room for one another in nature. Thank you so much, homie. Thank you, everybody out there. This one was full of so much, so much information. Please make sure you share this episode with your folks that are leading walks or organizations. Please share, subscribe, and never forget that Bird Joy is for everyone, even you. Thank much for having me, guys. I really appreciate space. and
01:01:05
Speaker
it's awesome and to have a conversation with guys. Thank you so much.