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Nature, Cemeteries, and Bird Joy: A Conversation with Danielle Belleny
0 Playsin 11 hours
In this joyful and thought-provoking episode, Dexter and Jason sit down with Danielle Belleny, a wildlife biologist, birder, storyteller, and co-founder of Black Birders Week. Danielle is known for her ability to blend ecology, joy, and cultural reflection, and she encourages us to see nature in often-overlooked places, particularly cemeteries.
Her celebrated works include *This Is a Book for People Who Love Birds* and *A Junior Birder’s Handbook*, and she is also behind the growing #CemeteryBirdersClub movement. Danielle’s efforts are expanding how people connect with birds, life, and even death.
Episode Resources:
Connect with Danielle:
Stay connected with Danielle’s latest projects, writing, and birding adventures:
Instagram: @bellzisbirding
#CemeteryBirdersClub
Website: https://dbelleny.carrd.co/
The Bird Joy Podcast is hosted by Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall
Connect with the Pod:
Instagram: Bird Joy Podcast
Birding Club Websites:
BIPOC Birding Club of Wisconsin
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
You're tuned in to season three of the Bird Joy podcast hosted by Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall. This podcast is for all the homies across the globe, a place to celebrate birds, community, and joy together.
00:00:15
Speaker
We're back with more stories from the birding world, more voices doing dope work in STEM, and more reasons to get outside and enjoy the birds. Are you ready for some bird joy? Let's go. Today's guest is somebody that I've wanted to chat with for a very long time.
00:00:32
Speaker
She's a wildlife biologist, birder, storyteller, who's work changes how people connect with nature and specifically cemeteries and birds. She co-founded Black Birders Week and is the author of This is a Book for People Who Love Birds, a charming, accessible guide perfect for everyone from backyard birders to seasoned spotters. But what I love most is how Danielle shows us that birds and joy can be found in places we often overlook. She also wrote a junior's birders handbook, a kid's guide to bird watching. And this proud papa, man, this is a very vibrant, interactive book that makes birding exciting and accessible for young people, regardless of where they live, city, suburb. It doesn't
Cemeteries as Birding Locations
00:01:18
Speaker
matter.
00:01:18
Speaker
Like cemeteries, Danielle's work illuminates the ecological importance of burial spaces and invites us to rethink North American death culture through the lens of nature. She's the heart behind the movement called hashtag Cemetery Birders Club. Danielle, welcome to the Bird Joy Podcast.
00:01:36
Speaker
ah So happy to be here, y'all. Thanks for that amazing intro. Hey, you know, we take pride in our introductions. You know that? We do. We do. Jason and we view the people that we interview as like superheroes. So like, we feel like if the introduction needs to be like epic, like Marvel movie, you know, like we got to bring it, you know? We're going to have to start hiring Michael Bay to come in here and have some sound effects, you know?
00:02:02
Speaker
You know, we could just contact the the homie Christian, you know, east writer marvel he Marvel, too. We could. Just like, are we doing a good enough job, Christian? I think we joked with him, too, of putting together a comic about Black Birders that would be incredibly epic. And like, in my mind... There would be superhero black birders in every region. So obviously, Danielle, you got Texas covered down there, right?
00:02:25
Speaker
um You know, Dexter would have the Midwest. I'd take the East Coast, right? We have ah Al and Karina down in the South, maybe. You know, that would be ah that would be a dope comic, actually. We might need to copyright that. but' gonna go to cut this You got to cut this from the podcast, Dexter, so we can copyright this.
00:02:42
Speaker
Oh man, I love it. I love it. The joy is flowing early.
Birding Adventures and Technology
00:02:46
Speaker
Danielle, like like I said, we're super, super, super glad that you're here. Let's start easy. okay You're joining us from Texas today. What are some cool birds you've seen this spring or early summer in Texas? Oh man. Okay. So I personally love to see Northern Perulas, but we also get tropical Perulas depending on where you are. so and They also hybridize. So we'll get a tropical Perulas, northern Perulas, and then a little mix of both and in this area. So that's been really fun to see. The hybridized tropical and northern Perulas. We were just talking about hybrids.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, I know. were talking about gulls. Yeah. Now we have to Google this. So, you know. I know. We got to see that because now now when I go in and edit this, I'm going be looking, do we have any noises of the hybrid? You know? I'm all excited now.
00:03:36
Speaker
And Merlin can't figure out. It'll like bounce back and forth literally with the same bird of tropical. No, northern. No, tropical. So maybe it's pollen from bull species? Yeah. and using multiple. That's so fascinating. That's really cool, actually. If only I had a sound detecting device that I could point at a bird and pick up the sound real easily. I don't know. Do you know anything about those?
00:03:58
Speaker
Jason does. Yeah. you know It's this thing called a parabola. You could hook up to your phone. That would be nice if you want to get really deep in the weeds with it and let your bird nerd flag fly pretty high. This is a cool bird. Man, i I honestly would probably have a tough time identifying this if I wasn't in a hybrid zone. They're pretty similar.
00:04:16
Speaker
Hmm. That's pretty cool. and That's pretty dope. think difference is a little white k dot under their eye. Hmm. So they don't have the, uh, they don't have like the broken eye ring. Oh yeah. I see that. Okay. Yeah. Cause normally the, the Northern has the broken eye ring, right?
00:04:28
Speaker
Pretty sure. Oh, that's dope. That's dope. Okay. So like, this is like, I feel like we might as just be out birding right now. Right. Cause it, just right into the bird joy talking about hybrid birds and recording bird song. And it's really exciting. And like, it's joyful, which is what we like to focus on on this show. And so like, what does bird joy feel like for you? Like describe your perfect day or moment of bird joy. Oh, man.
Joy of Birding and Educational Efforts
00:04:55
Speaker
Wow. ah So first off, bird joy for me is just separate serendipity. Those little moments where it's just like, what are the chances I'm here with this bird at this time, at this moment that I happen to land right there?
00:05:06
Speaker
So all of that, and I feel like that's like every single bird you see. Like, what are the chances that this bird is here? But then especially when it's one's like a tropical parula or something, and you get to like get eyes on it. Just...
00:05:17
Speaker
There's an unreal feeling about being able to see something that so beautiful, so up close, and just for a world-leading moment. and Serendipity. I love that word.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah. I love that word. that moment, those moments, right? It just like it just feels right. just like, this is what that is. This is what that word feels like, you know? Yeah.
00:05:39
Speaker
I will say sometimes I feel like birders have the special power to summon the bird. So maybe it's not serendipitous. Maybe it's just my powers, my black birder powers are coming into the backpack and they come to me. That's what I'm saying.
00:05:56
Speaker
You just like call me, you know, how like, ah you know, the the the homies from Captain Planet called in their powers and power rangers called in their little dinosaur drone things that they got into. You know, you just calling in Perulas, which I think is really dope.
00:06:10
Speaker
Yeah. like time like it's it's Yeah. and And I hate it when I walk by a habitat and it looks like perfect for a certain bird with the birds not there, you know, and I'm just like, come on, man. You know better.
00:06:20
Speaker
You know you a barred owl. You're supposed to be right here sitting over this swamp on this cypress tree. like This is where you're supposed to be while you're not here. you know um but then i But then that makes it better. Like you said, like what are the chances that you woke up that morning, brushed your teeth, put your shoes on, made a decision of where you're going to go, what time you're going to get there? And all of that stuff collects itself into the single moment of that bird popping up. And you think to yourself,
00:06:46
Speaker
Is this fate? Is this good planning? Is this my vibe? Am I putting out good karma and getting it back from the bird? Like there's all kinds of thoughts. And it's, and it's, uh, someone told me one time, like, you know, give yourself credit for getting up and going birding. This is your reward, um, regardless of what you saw, but like you were there for that moment, especially when it's just you, there's nobody else there. Sometimes you're just like, this moment is purely unique to my experience. You know, it's incredible. It's incredible.
00:07:12
Speaker
Love it. You know, Danielle, this this season, we've been talking a lot about just the inspiration that Black Brothers Week has brought so many of us. Right. And Jason had said something that really kind of stuck with me on ah one of our episodes where we're talking about 20 years from now.
00:07:30
Speaker
there are going to be all these kids that say, you know what, I'm inspired by this person and that person and that person and that person. And because we out here, we're all over the place. And I start thinking about folks out here that are really kind of doing the work for the next generation and you're writing for the next generation. Let's talk a little bit about a Junior's Birders Handbook. It's super fun. It's engaging for the youngsters. What inspired you to write that guide specifically for kids?
00:07:57
Speaker
Yeah. So first off, because I feel like there's a gap for a lot of that child education of getting really into like the nitty gritty of how things work. And when I was a kid, I wanted to know all those things, but i didn't have access to even finding out how to learn about those things. So putting it in a book is the perfect way to get kids that are in similar situations as I was to to know what they want to know.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, you were. So you're breaking a cycle like you knew, like, you know, I had this need. my mom always say, be a part of the solution. Otherwise, you're just part of the problem. So you saw a need, you know, you saw a need and you created something. i love it.
00:08:36
Speaker
I love it. It's fun. I really encourage all the birders out there, parents out there that have kiddos trying to get them into birding. Go check that out, please.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah. And the, um i you know, the illustrations in this book are really, really excellent. You know, um i yeah particular yeah I'm like, I'm like pulling it these somewheres They are really cute. And this is kind of one of my favorite parts of these, the books and friends of ours that have written books like this, especially children's books, because we were talking with Murray, Dr. Murray Burgess about Sparrow Loves Birds. And her partnership with an illustrator. So like how did that partnership come about with you and Michelle Carlos? and and And what role did you play in kind of shaping how things were illustrated? What did Michelle bring to the table? like Talk us through how some of that worked out.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah, well, thankfully, my publisher really um handled most of the work for that one. and They already had someone set aside to illustrate because there's a series of books of um just kids' books. There's one about, there's a junior astrologer's guide. There's like a junior... a junior witches guide and then there's a junior birders guide and and maybe another junior thing but they're all like illustrated super cute written really well thorough so so thorough and it's just like topics that there are kids out there that want to know these things and just have a little bit of fun and so here here they are here they are for the kids so yeah they they picked out this illustrator for me but for the my first book This is a book for people who love birds. I was a little bit more involved with that one.
00:10:04
Speaker
They sent me a list of folks that they had set aside as potential illustrators. I looked through their portfolios and I was like, you know what, do you have any specifically like black women? I'm like, I would like to work with a black woman specifically. And they pulled up another list and that's how I selected the illustrator for that book. So I'm really happy with that.
00:10:22
Speaker
collection process. Very intentional. We love to see it. That also goes to that feeling the need, seeing what's not, you know, what's out there, what's not out there. And that intention of realizing, first of all, in the nature space, there aren't a lot of black women authors. So loving that folks like you and Murray are coming out and we're we're able to start to be able to break that cycle, but also realizing even on the illustrator side that that is really cool. But that first book, this is a book for people who love birds. It feels like kind of like this love letter to birders of all kinds. What do you, what did you want readers to take away
Exploring Unconventional Birding Spots
00:10:58
Speaker
from that book?
00:10:58
Speaker
That birds are silly. Loosen up a little bit, have a little bit of fun. Like, do you see that thing? Don't take it so serious. Have some fun, folks. You heard what she just said.
00:11:10
Speaker
Have some fun. Don't lose sight of that joy. They are silly, right? They are fun. Sometimes you just look at them and it were just like, even like i I was out the other day and we have a robin nest under our deck.
00:11:23
Speaker
And it's so cute because like I love just watching them hop around and moving their heads like this. And they they look so kind of goofy as they do it. But like it's and I'm just like, y'all are amazing. People are like, Dex, how do you get excited for seeing the same bird all the time? I'm like, you just got to be with them.
00:11:39
Speaker
Like literally be there in the moment. Don't worry about how many times you've seen it. Just watch it. Because they always something silly. It's just like, what did they do that? And I'm the only person who's got to witness it. I can't tell somebody the story. They're going to think I'm nuts. I think people probably in my neighborhood, I'm the bird guy in the neighborhood Facebook group and stuff. So I think most people understand who I am now, but if I'm out walking my dogs early in the morning and I'm like, I'm talking to the birdies, okay. They're probably like, this is nuts.
00:12:13
Speaker
What is this dude? Like, who is he talking to like that? There's just people at their front window like, oh, here you go again. Look at him. Look at this. Look at this. Look at this. Honey, I told you. It's crazy.
00:12:24
Speaker
It's crazy. I told you. noise I don't know who he's talking to. I moved into a new house. And um the very first thing that we put into the house was our bird feeder. And it's this like nine foot tall bird feeder. It has all these different hooks and stuff. And she's like, no bird hunter, but the bird feeder is set up. So I hope that's at the tone. it's at the tone for the neighborhood for sure.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, people know. They're like, oh, this person is about business. Look at that. The moving truck ain't even got here yet. And they got suet and Niger seed and mealworms out there. They're ready to go. have some cool birds out here. I've been hearing Bob White's like close, very, very close. So I'm just like, I need it in my front yard. I need to see the bird.
00:13:02
Speaker
I was going to say, what's yard list looking like so far? How's it looking? I haven't technically started writing it down. It's actually in in the works, so I like to like... Hey, there we go. bring them I have the last place, but once I get this one written up, that but so far we have red-green blackbirds for sure in the backyard, great-tailed grackles, that's another favorite mine, house finches, house sparrows, doves, several doves. I think we had some Inca doves recently.
00:13:31
Speaker
I hear meadowlarks back there. i hear I hear about the sparrows. So I'm really excited for this place. Oh man, I wish I had a meadowlark as a yard bird. That's super dope. You hear in the morning.
00:13:47
Speaker
It's so beautiful. That's fantastic. Yeah. So the book is absolutely tremendous, right? Both of them. And I'd certainly encourage people to go grab them. um we'll We'll put those links in the show notes like we usually do. But there's an additional piece to this process. You had 500 piece puzzle that you created that came out with everything.
00:14:06
Speaker
Like what what made you want to do that as like a supplement and kind of take the burning beyond just the pages of the book? Yeah. So and there's a puzzle and there's magnets too. And I think there's like a remindus to poster that goes inside the puzzle too.
00:14:18
Speaker
But again, that was all all the publisher's idea. and um All of my my agent, she was just like, yeah, they also want to do a a puzzle and magnets. I'm like, let's let's go for it. Let's do it. people love People love getting extra stuff, you know? And a puzzle is dope, you know, because it lets you spend a little time in it. And it's weirdly a way where you could um be a little bit more intimate with the bird ID because you have to put it together piece by piece for some of the stuff. So that's like a really, really, really great idea. It's a pretty fun puzzle.
00:14:44
Speaker
You do a really good job of making birding approachable with all of these different things. We talked about your intentionality. Why is accessibility, inclusivity so central to the work that you do as a writer, as a biologist, as a Black birder, all the above?
00:14:58
Speaker
Yeah. So growing up in Texas, having access to land that you can go and explore has been really difficult. so Being that kid that wants to know the names of things and see see outside the car window and be able to walk in those those ditches and stuff, I didn't have the ability to do that. So now I'm i'm just hoping to be able to give back to those folks that are curious and and wanting to do those kinds of things. So and making things accessible is is just how I want to do it because ah it was so difficult for me to access the things i knew I loved, but i just you know there's just a barrier there that I really get to know what it was that I loved so much about it.
00:15:36
Speaker
I mean, follow up, follow up really quickly. ah When did you start to know that you love this stuff? Because I've heard you say that, like, you know, that's come out. I'm just curious, like, when when did you know that that this was for you? Now, I've i've always been and the little outdoorsy kid, little bug girl.
00:15:52
Speaker
um And I attribute it mostly to my grandparents. They have some land that I i was able to explore a little bit, but they they live about an hour away. So couldn't go there super often. But when I could, I was, oh my gosh, walking around barefoot, picking up snakes, picking up lizards, playing with ants, doing all that stuff. So it was really just, it's just in me.
00:16:10
Speaker
Love it. Love it. That's super incredible. So little bug girl, Danielle's running around, you know, doing thing growing up. And when did you first saunter into a cemetery and decide you were going to bird it? Like talk about when did you realize these could be incredible places for birds and wildlife? And like, what was that realization like? It was pretty much the first time that I really went birding. It was for a class, my ornithology class.
00:16:36
Speaker
um When I learned I could be a wildlife biologist as a profession, I transferred schools and went to aid in Kingsville. And one of my classes, the ornithology class, had us go birding on trips, I think weekly pretty much.
00:16:49
Speaker
and So I went to a cemetery with my professor in my class and I was like, this is bizarre, but we saw things I've never seen before, like vermilion flycatchers and owls and...
00:17:00
Speaker
all kinds of, i'm I'm sure there's a bunch of things, but I i can't remember it. That 15 years ago, maybe. But ah yeah, I had a really good time birding in that cemetery so long ago. That's like super incredible. And like, number one, that's a solid use of tuition money is birding every week. So kudos to A&M.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, well done. Solid juice right there. I like that. Did you at that moment, did you know? all right. I'm definitely like you knew you were going to be a wildlife biologist, but did you know you were going to have that affinity for birds at that moment? Is that what did it? Did that get you thinking about birds and cemeteries at that moment? Or did you come back to it later on once you had kind of got further along your wildlife biologist career?
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah, I came back around to birding and cemeteries. It took me, i guess 2020 was the year that i really started going back birding and cemeteries um because i I didn't really know where I could go, what places to to go visit because of the pandemic had to start. So I ended up back in cemeteries because that was the best accessible place I had in Texas.
00:17:56
Speaker
It makes perfect sense. Yeah. So it was there and it was one of the few places that wasn't closed yeah and keeping you away. That is fascinating. Is that when you really start to get that mindful relationship with the cemeteries and like how you look at death and birds and things? Is that kind of where that start to...
00:18:14
Speaker
That's pretty much the moment that it happened. It was just like, oh, these are really good places and there's there's no one here except for me and the groundskeepers. So I can just keep walking around. i was snapping photos of but like breeding pairs of vermilion flycatchers and um I would see birds nesting in trees and stuff and using the cemetery fountains as water sources. as like, yeah, I got it all right here.
00:18:35
Speaker
And i've been chasing them in parks and stuff and not having nearly as good of looks as I had in cemeteries. So a big picture moment happened right then.
00:18:45
Speaker
Wow. i've I've heard you talk about where some of your ancestors are buried and birding there in some different capacities. I found that to be really moving, that that connection with the history of your kinfolk on the land, right? And then also kind of being there as a representation of them, enjoying the nature. I found that incredibly powerful. What's the what's one of your favorite...
00:19:09
Speaker
moments or memories from birding in ah in a cemetery, like something that was surprising or unexpectedly beautiful, whether it was with your ancestors or otherwise? Yeah. so surprisingly, the list of birds that I see is not super exciting, but just the vibe of being in cemeteries, especially at the family cemetery. It's just like, I try to imagine myself back in their time when they were there walking around and and hanging out. just like, what was this place like back then?
00:19:34
Speaker
And that's kind of what I mostly meditate on. But Some of the cool birds I've seen definitely painted bundings. They're all over the place just this time of year out here. And I had one, and it was just perched really close and i I could get like a video on my phone. So that that was pretty exciting. And a couple of times I've been having like bad bird luck and then all of a sudden a huge snake is just at at my feet. So i think I really like to see snakes. So it was, it was shocking initially, but I don't know, something about it felt really comforting at the same time. You know what we call snakes? Nope ropes. no Nope ropes.
00:20:11
Speaker
That's awesome. I get it. You give them some space, but it was i think it was a black rat snake. It might've been a water snake or something, but it was a snake that I knew wasn't going to try to hurt me or anything. So I was like, oh, hey, I'll i'll focus on the snake and the plants instead of the the birds.
00:20:25
Speaker
That's incredible. I got pretty excited about that Eastern Diamondback we saw. forgot about that. That was a big old- It took up the whole freaking road and it had a belly full of something. I got to find the videos from that because the audio of Dexter in the background is hilarious. I got to figure out where that is and post it on her Instagram. That thing did something to me, man. My life was on the line. I didn't even care. I was like, look at that.
00:20:56
Speaker
That's incredible. but I'm like, what is that? I started freaking out. yeah Y'all got pretty close, I think. I have some really good pictures. i excited I think I got some on my camera, but i but it was the video of Dexter being like, look at it. It's so big.
00:21:13
Speaker
I still show that picture of that snake to people in my classes and stuff. I'm like, just look at this thing. Just look at this. yeah, that is fair.
00:21:25
Speaker
When you talk about, obviously, cemeteries being overlooked places for birding, are there any other spots that people ignore that are secretly great for birding, in your opinion? Yeah. yeah There's this place in Austin that I like to go to called Hornsby Bend, and it's a wastewater treatment plant, and it stinks.
00:21:45
Speaker
but it gets foul ropes. So I gotta go. I gotta go from time to time and check it out. Yeah, we have something similar here. Literally across from our water treatment center is this place called Nine Springs Eway. And they pump the water like the fresh water or the treated water back into this. And like there's all these mud flats, these tiny ponds. And when the shorebirds migrate, they're literally just popping in follow ropes and you might get you you never know. You might get some avocets. You get a snowy grid. You get all these different birds just like in this random little place right off the highway next to a water treatment plant. And it smells awful some days. Like it stinks, but it don't matter. Like you're out there and it's literally like
00:22:33
Speaker
It's not super big, so there's three different ponds and I could literally, I could do a lap around all three ponds and spend like two hours there and just see so many birds, like so many birds. It's fantastic. I often see osprey coming through there and snatching fish out of the water there and things. so yeah Those little retention ponds are are fantastic.
00:22:55
Speaker
Y'all got those in Philly too, Jay? Yeah, we got. So our most famous one is in like North Philly. And it's a part of North Philly that's yeah North Philly. All right. And it's along these old railroad tracks. And it's been famous the last couple of winters because it's, you know, it's butt cold out here in the wintertime. But we get these vagrants from the West Coast. I think we had an ash-throated flycatcher.
00:23:17
Speaker
spend two winters there. And it's the same, it's the middle of winter. And the weird part is like everything else around you is cold, but the closer you get to this wastewater wastewater treatment plant, you feel the temperature warming a little bit because it's it's just it's emanating its own heat from the bacterial stuff going on. But there's not only that flycatcher, there's wintering Eastern Phoebes, there's some swallows, like tree swallows that aren't supposed to be here at all in the winter time. And they just hang out there over that warm water and eat the bugs that are still living. And it' it's kind of a cool little stinky oasis, but it's just, it's just a wild spot. And it's, and it's so, it's such a testament to the resiliency of these birds, you know, that they would utilize such a space, especially in the off season when they're not supposed to be here. But I will say, I'm guessing wastewater treatment plants in that Texas sun is a different level than what I'm dealing with up here in Philly, because that's, That's got to be rough. that's That's like me going to the trash dump. Like, I want to go down to Brownsville and check out some gulls in that trash dump. But I was told, listen, man, you go down there in summer, you're going to get your lungs together because it's rough.
00:24:22
Speaker
I was just about to ask as a, as a goal chaser, as a goal lover, have you been to trash dumps?
Impact of Black Birders Week
00:24:27
Speaker
I, that's one place I've yet to try. Yeah. I go to, I've been to a couple so far. I go to one up here every December for our Christmas bird count. And, um, it's like 40 to a hundred thousand goals sometimes. And you, you know, I went with Amar this last, our last, last couple of times, I think. And, um, It's almost too much. you know It's too much. It's stinky. But it's just so many birds to look through. And to look through that many birds and try to find that much detail is is like your brain hurts when you're done. But there's some rock stars out here around me that helped me do it. So it's not terrible. Dumps, wastewater treatment plants are one thing. you know I think cemeteries are a little bit more, you got to be a little bit more respectful when you enter those places, right? For sure. And I wonder other than those, like i i you know you got any fun retention ponds or anything around you? Because I feel like I'm always finding weird stuff and man-made retention ponds for townhome developments, which is the only good part about townhome developments. Yeah.
00:25:26
Speaker
Yeah. So the place that I've moved to actually has a retention pond around the corner, just around the corner. And I just moved in a couple weeks ago, so I'm still getting stuff ready, but I i literally could have a scope pointed at this retention pond from my from my my yard. So I'm excited for the winter ducks. I would love, love, love love to get some winter ducks out here. I'm sure there's really good ones, but I just got to get a scope real quick.
00:25:47
Speaker
But yes, and I love a random retention pond. I've had some really good luck at other ones in the in the city. Listen, priorities, like you said, you got the bird feeder. You don't need a couch. Go get the scope. you know like this is you know Things things like need to happen. so Yeah, you can settle in a little bit. That's the beauty of being there, right? You just continue to get the watch. You got so much time.
00:26:14
Speaker
I do want to talk a little bit, ah Jason and and I, we we said that Black Birders Week and Black AF in STEM and that that entire movement would be a common theme for us this season and just really kind of shining and a light, not only on the work that they've done, but the work that they continue to do. And you are one of the original co-creators of Black Birders Week and that movement truly, truly has changed the conversation around who belongs in the outdoors. It's, you know, I know I can speak for myself. Like it was one of those moments I kind of relate it now to a lifer, my spark bird where like that Black Birders week was like my spark bird moment. Like it was like seeing an osprey for the first time snatch a fish out of the water. And I was like, oh my God, what was that? I had the same reaction to Black Brothers Week. Like I couldn't believe it. Like was like, no way.
00:27:03
Speaker
This is not real. Like they're literally literally all over the place like this. Like it was literally like my mind was blown. I can't get enough of like, I can't say thank you enough. I can't praise the movement enough. Cause it was just like, it really, really changed my life. And I know it did a lot of other people.
00:27:22
Speaker
What was that first week like for you emotionally, personally, what was that like for you, Danielle? Oh my gosh, it was a alive lot. It was a lot. First off, there was a lot going on. the People were getting murdered. the Police brutality was rampant, which I mean, feel like it's never stopped. But um there was a lot of pain just being thrown at us.
00:27:41
Speaker
And so the positive energy that Black AF and STEM was able to create in that very first year in such a quick time, such a such a short week. It's just so electric. The ah the energy in that that time was was something else. I'm i'm really happy that um everybody was able to pull together and bring such an amazing event that still is getting celebrated. i'm I'm really happy to have been part of it.
00:28:04
Speaker
and it's It's really incredible, too, because every year it gets renewed with these kind of new prompts and thoughts and guests and activities. And like every year I'm like, oh. I have to go follow this person on social media because they're fantastic. I had no idea they existed, right? There's a couple of those folks and it just grows every year, every year. And I think, and I think that's in my mind in 20 years from now, like Dexter said, the young folks of today being able to be adults and say who they were inspired by. Like, I don't know when it comes to black birders, I don't know that there's going to be anything more influential than black birders week. Right. Like that really feels like a pivotal moment. And, um, I,
00:28:40
Speaker
look forward to it every year for the general that kind of renewal of that sense that Dexter talked about of like this having your mind blown because every new experience, every new birder, right? It it it fills up my cup every year. And I and I just I want to give you the same thank you that we've given other folks that have come on um to just say thank you, you know, for the effort and the work. I know it was mostly it was pretty much all volunteer work. And, you know, I hope we can continue to follow the lead of people like you and Black AF and STEM as we as we continue to go through this journey. So thank you.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah. thing Thanks. Thanks for being participating. We really couldn't be here without all the folks pitching in and ah wanting to form community. That's the first step, you know, you you can offer it, but folks that want to accept that invitation. and i'm very happy to have been able to meet you and all the other folks and through Blackbirders Week.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's, it's been going on for you know almost half a decade here. So like, what do you think, what do you think we need to see moving forward? You know, what still needs to change? What are your hopes and dreams for Blackbirders Week? Yeah, I think we need to see each other in person is what I think. That's what I'm talking about.
00:29:45
Speaker
I would really love to have a Black Birders Week that is in person and can go birding together. i know it's going to be ah a lot to work on. It's going to be a lot of logistics and stuff. i'm I'm positive that we can do it. And just, oh my gosh, I can't. and I'm just imagining the the the joy, the bird joy that's going to be emanating from that type of festival. Black Birders Week festival.
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, live and in person. oh See, the hard part is coming to figure out where to do That's the dream right there. Getting all the homies on the place. think y'all need to come to Texas. i don't think that enough of y'all coming down and visit Texas enough. I've never been to Texas. Yeah, I've been to High Island, um but that was flying into Houston and driving south. but like i I don't know if you heard when you joined, but we were I was complaining about how big Texas is and how long it takes me to drive across it. Yeah.
00:30:35
Speaker
It is huge. I'm sorry. But you know you're you're by Austin, right? Yep. I'm by Austin and I'll go to Houston and Dallas, eh, eh, but I'll go to the coast. I'll go to the coast and I'll go to Houston, the other coast. so But I feel like Austin's got the right vibe to have us come through, right? Yeah. Austin has a nice vibe. There's barbecue. there's some There's some spots. There's some nice swimming places. Yeah. You you can get it all. A nice little outdoorsy. Yeah.
00:31:00
Speaker
I'm to have to put a pin in the ground for Austin. Because I was saying the hardest part is going figuring out where to do it, right? um Yeah. And what scale to do it at the first time, right? Because you know it'll be a learning activity either way. i was just thinking if it's Blackbird as we get, we got to like, you know, put the but the Black Power fist up, you know, really, really drive it home. And there's some areas in Austin, but I feel like another city might really have that that feeling that we're looking for, that energy. Sure.
00:31:26
Speaker
Sure, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That week and like I said, the the excitement that I get every time I participate in Black Birders Week and I and i you know virtually meet new people and follow new people and I get new perspective from from new folks. Like, how have you seen that going? Right. Like as people build communities and connections. Right. And and people that I think for a large part didn't feel seen before. Like, how are you feeling about that?
00:31:51
Speaker
Do you still feel like that is on track for what Black AF and STEM is is meaning to do? Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel like it is going on track and I've been able to make more connections and whenever I do meet like a new outdoorsy black person, I'm like, hey, have you ever heard about Black Birders Week?
00:32:06
Speaker
and So I kind of kind of like if they're you're not birders, it's like I don't care if you become a birder, but like this is a really great network for you to meet other folks like you in the the the things that you like to do. So, um yeah, I think it's going well.
00:32:20
Speaker
Awesome. I think I agree. First of all, I think it's going well as as well. I see all these people like I remember when we were together down in Georgia, they encouraged us all to at least connect with one person there and try to do something.
Building Community and Diversity in Birding
00:32:34
Speaker
That's something for Jason and I was this podcast and that's led, you know, us, you know, creating this podcast has led to even more connections and different things that and I never thought was possible in a burning community. I mean, we were just at Biggest Week in Burning together. You know, jason and i spreading that that word of just like burning is for everyone. And it looks like me. It looks like Jason. It looks like Danielle. It looks like all of our homies that we see online and Black Birders Week. And every time I get the opportunity to speak or or take a stage and talk about.
00:33:09
Speaker
what burning is, I make sure I talk about that. I make sure I talk about that it it is for everyone, that a lot of these you know white dominated traditional burning spaces are not reflective of what burning is.
00:33:22
Speaker
And I think thanks to the work that you all have done, you're now setting it up where we can look ahead And we can think about the next generation of black and brown birders and naturalists and, you know, herpetologists and mammologists and all of these different things where we can change the way that that looks and people can say they can see themselves now in these different roles. So what are your hopes for that next generation of black and brown birders or or nature lovers? what What are your hopes for that next generation?
00:33:53
Speaker
And I really just hope they have a connection to the land. And it's something that's hard to explain, but like when you, when you have that type of relationship, it's just like, i don't know, there's just a type of peace that kind of falls over you. You always have like a friend around no matter where you are, you always have nature or dirt or the land and just really just find your own footing, find, feel the feeling of home. And I want them to be able to feel that. I don't want them to to not have a connection to what's been around us for generations.
00:34:23
Speaker
That is so well put. And it's such a common theme among our guests of nature and the access to nature being an entity that they can rely on, whether it's for joy, for healing, for peace. Um, like almost everyone has that. And it's, and it's, that you have to be intentional about trying to go get it and taking the time to care for yourself to go find it. Right. Um,
00:34:46
Speaker
And I think that's the message that Blackbirders Week and people like you and me and Dexter are trying to get out there. Right. It's it's it's it's a lovely one, too, because you can do it anywhere. Right. People always say, like, nature is right outside, you know, and although there are some you know logistical things people have to work out here and there. Right. And get support for is there and hopefully will be there for for many years to come. But that's that's such a beautiful sentiment that you just shared there. You've already done ah lot.
00:35:11
Speaker
Two time author. books, public speaking, community building. What is next for the homie Danielle? Any new projects? Uh-oh, uh-oh. feel like there's something coming.
00:35:24
Speaker
And again, being out nature, I just get inspired by so many things I see. It's just like, oh, oh, that's an idea right there. And oh, and if I combine that with this. So my My goals now are to make some pollinator gardens essentially in some of my family cemeteries.
00:35:39
Speaker
So I'll be working in the ground, working in the cemetery, putting some nice plants and stuff that can manage themselves. That's that's the key thing there. i I don't want to back out here and all that native stuff that's going to help the ecosystem, but also look beautiful for folks that are coming. Maybe they can pick a little bouquet and put it on their their loved ones' graves and stuff. But um Yeah, that's that's what I'm doing now is meeting the folks that are already managing these cemeteries, building connection with them and putting out these ideas of, hey, if you want to know less, we can do this and this and this.
00:36:11
Speaker
So trying to figure out a way to make make everybody have a win-win-win kind of experience. Ooh, I love that. Pollinator gardens at the cemetery. such like And like in my mind, I'm like, how we not thought of that yet? Like, i you know, like sometimes I'm just like, that makes so much more sense than just grass everywhere. And it's like Bermuda grass. Beautiful grass. they Typically all these old growth trees and like there's not a ton of traffic usually in there, right? Like it's undisturbed. Like when you really start to think about it, you're like, this makes sense.
00:36:44
Speaker
perfect. This makes so much sense. Just put some flowers there. They're so dirty. I definitely think there's a movement heading towards these ecologically responsible cemeteries. um Even from the, because I you know joke all the time, like put me you know you can cremate me or whatever, but you can put me in one of those things where you bury me as a tree. I've seen them where they have it as the actual human body in a pod and you go down in the ground with the tree. And I've seen also where they mix in your remains with the soil and the seed for the tree So where literally the atoms in your body are sustaining that tree or sustaining that metal. Like that part is incredible for me. Right.
00:37:19
Speaker
Right. And like, just in my mind, it's like that the atoms in my body could be providing pollen for some native bees at some point like that. and gives me goosebumps, right? More than just about anything else associated with death. And i couldn't can that connection of renewal is not something we talk about super often with our, honestly, with our Black communities, right? We're very religious communities, right? And so those conversations don't happen as often. And I think they should, you know, because it gives us our own connection to renewal and life in places that are generally sad and reflective for us. So that's that's really beautiful. I want to come visit your family's pollinator burial spaces.
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. But yes, definitely have that conversation with your family. I know what is
Bird Migration and Learning from Birds
00:38:00
Speaker
weird to bring up, but think about what you are going to do because the plans sneak up, death sneaks up on everybody pretty much. So um yeah, have something and in plan. you can really make it a beautiful ceremony. you can be buried loose the ground and then become a ah meadow of flowers. And there's places that will help you accommodate for all of that. And them I have all all this just trapped in my head and nowhere to put it. So yeah. Oh, you're going to figure it out. I have no doubt about that. You're going to figure that out. You're going to figure that out. You talked about the vermilion flycatcher painted bunting today. What's ah another bird that's had this lasting impact on you?
00:38:42
Speaker
What did it teach you? Oh, I got to get a lesson from it too. Okay. Okay. So at the place that i used to live, I used to be able to see like Franklin's goals migrate through the area. And it was like a whole string of them, like hundreds of Franklin goals, just moving. speaking my language.
00:39:01
Speaker
I know, I'm like, you're getting Jason all excited right now.
00:39:07
Speaker
And there would just be a whole trail of them just flying over so gently. And then I wouldn't see them until the fall. And here they are going the opposite direction. and then I wouldn't see them again. So just like being able to watch those little cycles of the birds coming and going and getting to know them like, oh, there's <unk>s my neighbor, Franklin Goals. There they are going to their migration route. So and I think that's us a lot of fun to be able to watch. So Franklin Goals, this I don't know. Just I don't know what lesson there is there, but yeah.
00:39:33
Speaker
this I love that you called him your neighbor. love that. Yeah, that's fantastic. Right? I love that. He's like Mr. Rogers vibe, you know? It's just my neighbors going back and forth to their summer cottage, you know? Back down to their wintering grounds, you know? That's really beautiful. And neighbor denotes proximity and connection, at least to a space and to a land. So I love that. I'm going to shamelessly steal that from you and start calling birds my neighbors. Yeah.
00:40:01
Speaker
and be like oh I know that one. Yeah. I know that little homie. It's funny. I love you bring up migration because this, when Jason and I, when we were in Biggest Week, the kids asked us something and they were like, what is like one fact about birds that like,
00:40:16
Speaker
that is kind of blows your mind like that, that you find super interesting. And we both talked about migration and the fact that it is this marvel, right? Like, where are you going, homie? How did you fly a thousand miles and back?
00:40:28
Speaker
Found me again, came to the same place, dodging all these predators and storms and you ain't got no GPS or no maps or nothing. That's nice. Show up. Like that is crazy.
00:40:42
Speaker
Like that, the neighbors are amazing. Yes, they are. The built-in GPS unit they got up here. I really want to know how that works because it's it's a miracle. Let me tell you something.
00:40:53
Speaker
ah just I'm listening to Jennifer Ackerman's book, The Genius of Birds. She's got a chapter about it. And they start with like homing pigeons and what they've done and what they learned from them. And then they expand out to like Arctic turns.
00:41:04
Speaker
And then they talk about this study where they... um They grabbed a bunch white crown sparrows from Oregon and they flew them to like New York. And it was 15 adults and 15 juveniles or like recently fledged birds. The adults, when they tracked them, once they got in New York, they immediately headed for Southern California straight back across.
00:41:23
Speaker
The juveniles didn't know where to go. So, like, it's just wild that, like, no matter where you put these birds on the planet, as long as all the the gears are working right, like, they know where to go.
00:41:35
Speaker
I'm getting to to Milwaukee to look for this goal. Like, I know I'm going to have to use my phone and Uber and, like, You know, but there's no way I'm getting home by myself. You know, like i it's just it's it's mesmerizing. You just got me so excited, Daniel. want to go outside and bird like right now. yeah and yeah It sounds like there's a fair amount of like learning, too, since the juveniles weren't able to know what to do. Someone had to teach them to be able to do that. and so We've actually had weird birds migrate with golden-cheeked warblers. And then, so we have this like weird little range of Hutton's vireos that are completely disjunct from the Western range of Hutton's vireos.
00:42:11
Speaker
And it's because they followed a golden-cheeked warbler randomly to up here. And they were like, Hey, mean we like it. We like it up here. So the learning of birds is really incredible. That's amazing. Learning of birdies.
00:42:24
Speaker
That's amazing. They're always teaching us something. i always tell people that's the one thing I love about birds is I'm always learning. Like always. Every single day. Every time I meet somebody. Like these new experiences.
00:42:37
Speaker
Fall, winter, you know, spring, summer. Like there's always something that's happening. And i'm like, thank you. Oh my God. never heard of that. Oh, what? Yeah. This is fascinating. This is fascinating. There's so much to learn. That's why birds do the best.
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah, they really are. They really are. I have a, ah I just, I finally was successful as far as I know, fledging three Eastern bluebirds in my little backyard here. So I got home from, yeah, I was down in Maryland for a week and I came back and like the adults are still here and they're carrying food somewhere, but the babies aren't in the nest anymore. And it was just about 18 days. So I figured they hopped out and are under a bush somewhere. But the wild part is a houseman moved in.
00:43:16
Speaker
And started building a totally different nest on top of the old bluebird because housewrens fill up the whole box. And now my brain is just like, was this already a known transaction? Did you come up to the bluebirds and say, hey, I got next. As soon as y'all are done in there, I'm going to go ahead and just slide in there. And the housewren is like guarding the bird feeders the same way the bluebirds did. The bluebirds were, the only bird they chased away was the common grackle.
00:43:39
Speaker
They let the finches in. They let the cardinals in. They let everybody else in. But if the grackle came around, they chased them away. And now guess what the housewren is doing? letting everybody else chill but the poor Grackle who literally brought the Grackle brought their family today. I watched them feed a couple babies some of the stuff from my platform feeder. Right. And here's the house rangers being an ass.
00:43:57
Speaker
You know, i'm like, homie, you ain't even been here. The Grackle's been here at the whole time just trying to eat like, you know, they can't catch a break. He didn't catch. There's some bird. Yeah, this this this is this something. There's something going on over there, but it's just this wondrous thing. just in my And I have a tiny, tiny little backyard. it's not huge. So like just the fact that i get to experience that here you know is really, really a blessing. so Yes, box up.
00:44:18
Speaker
Yeah. It wasn't successful last year. I lost the eggs due to something. I don't know if it was a snake or what, but it just disappeared one day and so did the birds. So when they came back this year, I was like, right, we're going to get this right. going to slide some live mealworms out there every now and again just to give you a break.
Connecting with Danielle Online
00:44:33
Speaker
And it worked. So we'll see. Great. This has been a really great conversation. I know we're going to be running out of time here in a minute, but like where can people follow you and your work and support your work more importantly? Yeah, you can find me on, want my website is probably best. It's dbelony at car.co, but I can send that to y'all so you can just click a link. Yeah, we'll put in it well yeah we'll put it into the show notes too. That'll link you most of my things that I got going on. I even got one of my cemetery birding videos from Black Birders Week last year, I gave a whole spiel about how important cemeteries can be. That's also on that website too, as well as all my socials and stuff.
00:45:11
Speaker
Awesome. Yes, we will definitely, definitely link to all that. But before we officially let you go, we started something new with Karina when we had Karina on this little rapid fire.
00:45:23
Speaker
And it's something that we kind of- It's my favorite part now. Yeah, yeah. it's It's kind of fantastic. I don't think it's going away. So what we do, if we just ask you quick question, whatever pops in your mind first, we go with that.
00:45:37
Speaker
All right? Okay, all right. All right, Danielle. It's time for a little rapid fire. All right. Best bird you've seen in a cemetery? Yellow warbler. Ooh. Grayhorned owl. Grayhorned owl. Ooh, solid. That's his whole bird. Most surprising animal encounter, non-bird wild cemetery birding.
00:45:56
Speaker
Oh, oh, these are these rock squirrels love to live in one of the cemeteries. Oh, actually, wait, no. Oh, sorry. I saw a peacock. peacock is a bird, but ah rock squirrel. Rock squirrels are cute. Sorry, it's rapid. Do they, like, do that? Do rock squirrels do, you like, that little whistle? Or is that, is that is that like, woodchugs?
00:46:14
Speaker
No? No, I don't think rock squirrels do that. All Favorite cemetery you've ever birded? Hmm. Uh...
00:46:25
Speaker
You got to be stumped there already. There's a cemetery that I visited in Oklahoma. I was just driving through it was just really pretty. So I'll say that one, but I just can't remember the name of it.
00:46:36
Speaker
All right. Somewhere in Oklahoma. Shout out to Oklahoma. Oklahoma. What bird shows up in cemeteries more than people actually expect? I think, okay, owls, but I think that's expected. People think they're spooky. so But that's a reliable place for me to see owls. I see them nesting there a lot, too.
00:46:54
Speaker
i like it. You know, I wonder if that has to do with the fact that it's not heavily traveled as much as all these other spaces. Like, they don't see humans as often in cemeteries because we are averse to them because we don't know how to deal with death a lot of the time. so Oh, that's that's a really good one, actually. is ah this this this There's something there on Owls in Cemetery, maybe the beginnings of a new book or something. i don't know. Mm-hmm.
00:47:14
Speaker
All right. Spring or fall migration, which one is better in a cemetery? o Dang it. Y'all keep, these these are hard questions. I'm going to say spring. Spring because birds are just easier to find. Sure. Yeah, they're singing, or brighter.
00:47:31
Speaker
Love it. Especially early spring when the leaves aren't all full yet. Yes. All right. One last one. If the cemetery's birder club had an official mascot bird, who would it be?
00:47:45
Speaker
I love these Dexter. You did good job with these questions. I don't know. Oh my gosh. cannot get You got to give us one. Okay. I'm going to say, this is out of left field. going to say the monk parakeet.
00:47:58
Speaker
or Yeah. I'm going to say monk parakeet. I'm to stick with it. I really want to go to Greenwood Cemetery up in Brooklyn. and I think i think and they have like this weird colony of monk parakeets. know they're not native, but they're super cute and super cool to see. And they They're really well known for living out there. You're
Closing Remarks
00:48:15
Speaker
going to have to reach out to the homey Indigo Goodson Fields frankly at the Brooklyn Botanical Garden to take you over to that cemetery. I'm sure she would love to do that.
00:48:26
Speaker
Yes. That'd awesome. This has been fantastic, Danielle. I gave you the hardest rapid fire questions to date. I didn't answer it very rapidly, but i didn't what I did. It don't matter. was so fun. and um Thank you so much for being with us today. This was this was what I expected and some. I've been really, really, really excited to chat with you. So thank you.
00:48:48
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for letting me chat about cemeteries. I'm happy to do it again. Absolutely. And we got to get on figuring out how to do that Black Birders Festival. We start absolutely putting the minds together. Yeah, that is that is something I think would be very, very special just to get us all together like that and all that brain power and all that bird joy. And I'll just put a plug out there for folks who want to help organize Black Birders Week, just just come and help. just ah if If you're a Black Birder or not even a birder, but if you you would like to help, just
00:49:20
Speaker
hang out with us and we you will we will incorporate you with the planning. It's oftentimes just a couple of us, but we can do a lot of things together. I didn't know it was open like that. So folks can just kind of roll in and say, Hey, I'd love to pitch in. Yeah. Come and help. what We'll get you in coordination with ah how we organize things and how we meetings and et cetera. But yeah, it's, it's not closed. Feel free to come in and come out as you need to.
00:49:45
Speaker
All right, folks, you heard it here. Let's all jump in. All right, folks, you heard here. Let's all jump in. Well, I want to thank everybody for joining us today on the Bird Joy podcast. We hope you enjoyed exploring the world of birding in cemeteries with Danielle today. Shout out to the BIPOC Birding Club of Wisconsin. You can check out what we got going on the rest of this summer.
00:50:06
Speaker
We got birds and bats at dawn and all type of fun stuff. Stationary birding events with the Feminist Bird Club. We got some fun stuff going on. BIPOCBirdingGlove.org. Yes, yes, yes. And until next time, homies, as usual, you can find me and the homies from In Color Birding Club here in Philly at InColorBirding.org. We got some fun things happening for the summer. A visit to a private island on the Delaware River. We got our first game night happening in July. So little wingspan, some bird trivia, some other stuff. Right. And then we'll, you know, kind of head into late summer and get ready for them shorebirds start coming back through.
00:50:44
Speaker
So until then, homies, please share, subscribe and shout out this podcast to all your fellow birders. Help us spread a little bird joy. Peace.