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Birding as Joy, Protest, and Collective Liberation with Sam DeJarnett
0 Playsin 9 hours
In this episode of the Bird Joy Podcast, we’re joined by Sam DeJarnett, creator and host of the Always Be Birdin’ Podcast, for a powerful conversation about joy, resistance, and collective liberation through birding. Sam shares her journey into birding through wildlife rehabilitation and her experiences with exclusion in traditional birding spaces. These experiences pushed her to build something new rather than walk away.
We explore how birding can serve as protest and community care, how dominant narratives in conservation have excluded Black and Brown birders, and what becomes possible when knowledge is shared horizontally rather than through gatekeeping. Sam also unpacks her mycelium metaphor for community, offering a vision of birding spaces as interconnected networks where supporting one another strengthens the whole.
This episode centers on birding as joy, birding as resistance, and birding as a tool for imagining more inclusive, liberatory futures, all wrapped up in a fun and thoughtful Bird Joy Lightning Round that captures Sam’s philosophy and heart.
Recommended
Transcript
Season 4 Kickoff of Bird Joy Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to season four of the Bird Joy podcast. Your hosts Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall are back with more birds, more bird joy, and plenty of laughs along the way.
00:00:11
Speaker
Each episode brings new stories, fun conversations, and a whole flock of good vibes. We're happy you're here. We really miss the homies and we hope you enjoy this season.
00:00:23
Speaker
You ready? Let's go All right, folks, welcome back. Welcome back to another lovely, lovely episode of the Bird Joy podcast. I am Jason Hall here with Dexter Patterson.
Challenging Birding Narratives with Sam Desjardins
00:00:36
Speaker
And today's guest is someone who has helped reshape how many of us think about birding, community and liberation.
00:00:43
Speaker
Sam Desjardins is a birder of four years and the creator and host of the Always Be Birding podcast. Through her podcast, Sam creates space for Black and non-Black people of color who are birders, conservationists, and nature lovers, while challenging traditional narratives of birding and conservation using the lenses of critical race theory.
00:01:03
Speaker
Sam's philosophy around birding is both simple and powerful. We bird as joy. We bird as protests. We bird as community. We bird for collective liberation. And no matter who you are or where you are, you can always be bird.
Sam's Journey in Birding and Wildlife Rehabilitation
00:01:16
Speaker
Sam's journey into birding began through wildlife rehabilitation and later deepened while working at Portland Audubon, where experiences of exclusion pushed her to interrogate why birding spaces can feel unwelcome to so many. Instead of walking away, she built something new.
00:01:31
Speaker
Sam was also the first podcast host to bring Dexter and I on together. And she was part of the 2022 Black Birders Retreat at Little St. Simons Island, where she shared a metaphor about the birding communities functioning like a mycelium network that has stayed with me
Birding as Resistance and Inclusive Spaces
00:01:46
Speaker
since. This conversation is about changing narratives, building laboratory outdoor spaces, birding as resistance, and imagining new futures for conservation.
00:01:56
Speaker
Sam, welcome to the Bird Joy podcast. Wow. That was real fire, Jason. Dang. I can't take credit for that. You got to give credit your boy Dex for that. I just- Did you read that, Dexter? Oh. just began to smooth vocal overtones for that. you know what?
00:02:16
Speaker
That was really great. But we got to mix it up. We alternate who does the introduction so it don't get monotonous or nothing, but I write them.
00:02:27
Speaker
Well, thank you, Dexter, for writing that. That was crazy. I was like, did I do all that? That's really crazy. Okay. You sure did. You sure did. And that mycelium network, we're going to talk about that later. Oh, man. I love that. Well, thank y'all so much for having me You know, I've been, I've been peeping y'all for the last couple of years and I'm like, Ooh, Ooh, okay. I'm ready. I'm ready to finally be on the, on the, on the season and talk with my homies because you know, it's really also like listening to that introduction back makes me, does throw me back to having to introduce y'all on my podcast. And I'm like, I love it's like, it's almost like my, how the tables have turned, you know? Well, we appreciate you.
00:03:11
Speaker
We appreciate you so much, Sam. And you are a joy to hang out with your energy, the work that you do. And you have one of my favorite bird origin stories. Can you take us back to your early relationship with nature in that moment that birds really kind of entered your world?
00:03:28
Speaker
Yeah. So how far back are you trying to go, Dexter? yes far back is you know you know the as but as As far back as you want to go where you feel like, yeah, OK, this is the one. This is the one. you know Yeah. So I have always been around animals, working with animals for a very long time. and I started in wildlife rehab when I was in college. And that was like, I really wanted to be a zookeeper. And basically I couldn't get the chemistry because that was hard. And so that was no longer my trajectory. um So my advisor at the time was like, have you ever thought about like wildlife rehab? And i was like, i don't even know what that is And so I ended up doing an internship in Cleveland, Ohio, where I'm from. And that got me into... the rehab aspect of it but not the birding aspect of it until like i was dealing with like all kinds of crazy stuff like they're they're like go grab that bald eagle i was like excuse me what you know and i didn't know like the real thing you're talking about like yeah go just go grab one you know
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah. And I was like, oh, OK. And so at that time, I was learning a lot of things about birds, but not about them without injury. Right. And so it's a little bit different. um And so I was introduced to them in not their natural habitat at first. And so then I moved out here to Portland, Oregon, where I'm currently at. And I started volunteering at Portland Audubon and their wildlife rehab center. And over the years, got some promotions, got hired, blah, blah, blah, blah. And once I was hired on there,
00:05:10
Speaker
I went out with the education team for a birding outing and it was my first one. i was like, oh, y'all like, like, like birds. This isn't just like, let's see how it happens. Oh, y'all actually like them. you You like them when they're not down and out and like have a broken wing. Oh, OK. So that was like my very first. And these were like, these people are birders, you know. And so it was like meant to be like a like a little bonding thing of the team. And we went out to this place in just outside of Portland, Oregon, called Stigerwald National Park.
00:05:46
Speaker
national park i think and i'm with these people they're like there's that there's this there's that and i was like oh okay don't know what that is okay cool but then we got to the river and i distinctly remember being like in complete awe of this bird, it was bald eagle. And this bird was like this far off of the waterline, just like looking it after a male mallard. That mallard was toast, like absolutely done for. And it was like the coolest thing that I had ever seen because, you know, again, I'm coming from a situation where
00:06:26
Speaker
You know how you meet people and you're like, I love birds. And they're like, birds are real. That was me before I started in wildlife rehab. What's a bird? I've never seen one, you know, and then seeing them in their, you know, in an abnormal territory where they're very injured. They're you know, there's a high euthanasia rate to seeing a bald eagle healthy, living its best life, about to do the thing that it was made to do.
00:06:50
Speaker
which is hunt and kill something. Seeing that on my very first birding outing, that was it. That was a wrap. I was like, oh God. I was like, darn. I just didn't know. You just don't know until you see something like that, how amazing it is, you know? oh And they just want you to go grab one. exactly After you watch it, take out this mallard. Exactly. They're like, go get that thing. And I'm like, oh, OK, here's some gloves. I'm like, that seems like not enough. But yeah. But yeah, so that was the moment for me where, you know, I was lucky to see that on my very first birding outing. I feel like a lot of new birders don't necessarily have that type of experience.
00:07:27
Speaker
And so that. put me on to what's this birding thing about? you know like Is it always like this? And it kind of is you know what I mean? like It really kind of is You might not always see a but like a bald eagle hunting, but just to see these animals in their natural environment do what they're supposed to do is just really cool no matter what.
00:07:47
Speaker
Can I ask, because like this is, and you kind of jumped into it already of like going from the rehab aspect into viewing these creatures when they are healthy and living naturally in the environment. did the Did the two things ever kind of start to, like, did they start to overlap? Like, were there things that you became curious about in the rehab because of what you saw out in the wild or vice versa? Like, how did those two things start to coexist as you went through time? Because I imagine like you probably had help some bald eagles get better or help some bald eagles transition before you saw the bald eagle go find his lunch with the with the mallard right so like yeah when you walk back into the rehab facility the next day were you looking at them kind of sideways like how does that how does that kind of work out like let me be a little more careful i think like when i was in ohio i think that
00:08:38
Speaker
I was really young and I was like still in college. was probably like 19 or whatever. so I didn't know nothing about nothing really. And so my brain was just like absorbing everything I possibly could absorb about it. But I was kind of way more interested in the science of rehab, like the, I guess that science and medical aspect of it with like the types of injuries and like how to heal them and release ability versus non-release ability. And i think In Ohio, I don't think that I ever had that moment until they started me kind of talking to the public about their permanent resident birds that they had, like little sawaway owls or like, you know, a great horned owl. And they had me talking to the public. And then that was the point where I had to learn that information about them. Right. That wasn't just like, you know, here's...
00:09:33
Speaker
how to treat an eye injury on an owl. It's where, what what are the facts about a great horned owl that make it so cool that you can get the public interested in them and thus conservation, right? And so that was kind of, that would be the crossover, I think, where I was like, okay, I i had to start learning more facts. But I never went birding in Ohio until I got to Oregon. So, yeah. Let's switch gears a little bit and and dive into a conversation about belonging, exclusion, changing the narrative.
Barriers in Birding: Unwelcoming Spaces
00:10:05
Speaker
You've been really open about the feeling you had, like you didn't belong when you first entered organized birding spaces. And I think that sentiment is shared by a lot of BIPOC birders as a whole. Can you talk about what that disconnection felt like in those moments?
00:10:21
Speaker
I think that what really pointed that out to me was ah several different moments. So being in Portland, Oregon is a wild ride as a Black person and or BIPOC. And it is just very, this city is just really,
00:10:47
Speaker
built on racism and like the current notion of it is to pretend that it's not just to pretend you know and then anyway so long story short you know i'm going out like after that experience with the bald eagle i was like dang i really want to go out everyone around me was white literally everybody and so shout out to tara that Tara is my my birding mentor. She's taught me everything I know about everything. She's amazing. And she and I would go out all the time. And I had no – like, I did not feel that way until I decided that I wanted to join, like, an official birding outing through Portland Audubon because that was only way that I knew. i didn't know of any, like like, independent little clubs or anything like that. – I show up and I'm like the youngest person there and I'm the only non-white person. And just like the way in which when you show up as somebody who also doesn't know anything and there is almost no room for fostering the curiosity at a base level, it's kind of like, oh, you don't know this fact? Oh, then I'm going to over explain it to you.
00:11:55
Speaker
in these really like scientific terms and all this. And it just overwhelmed me. And it made me feel like I wasn't meant to be there because I literally physically like didn't look like anybody. That was uncomfortable. And then the ways in which people were, i always call it Pokemon Go, just trying to collect them all, you know, and just like, listing and just like that style of birding. We all know it. I do it now, right? But like at the time, it felt very foreign to me and it felt very inaccessible to me and it felt like I'm never going to know enough. I also didn't have binoculars. Like I'm never going to...
00:12:30
Speaker
Be a birder is how I felt going to those outings. It's hard to feel welcome when you don't see anybody that looks like you. You're brand new. And I've said this numerous times. Like I had the same experience, Sam. Like you go to these traditional white dominated birding spaces and questions are not literally like welcome. Like they assume they they bird assuming you know what they know.
00:12:54
Speaker
Yeah. Right. They don't they don't care necessarily. Oh, you're brand new. You don't know what a Robin is. You don't know what this is. You don't know. Like they just assume, you know. And then if you do get the courage to ask a question or something, they look at you like you crazy because you don't know. um And that yeah is that was one of the first things like when we started our club, like I was like, I want this to be a space where every single question is not only asked, but encouraged.
00:13:22
Speaker
where people like know, like from the jump, like you can ask anything. Don't assume that, you know, if you don't, I don't care if you had never seen an American goldfinch or a blue jay or whatever, you know, it might be at the time. Like I always help you, but you see a bird point at it, you're being helpful. We can figure it out together. And that approach, you know, I remember going to those same thing, having that, having that experience and like, man, I need to see more and going to those spaces and looking around like, uh, Am I supposed to be here? Right, right. Is this for me? There's a reason I ain't telling people I ain't like birds, you know what I'm saying? Exactly, right? You're like, and it's two levels, right? I'm sure that there are many young white people that feel that way as well when they enter into a space full older white people and they're a novice birder or they're very interested in it. People have to understand that when you are Black people,
00:14:18
Speaker
more brown or indigenous and you have that second layer of like, really don't belong
Impact of Biases on Birding and Conservation
00:14:25
Speaker
here. Like, and and because it's sometimes, not all the time, there are moments and I've had these moments where I'm out and people look at me like, why do you, y'all know the feeling. Y'all know what I'm talking about. know the look. Yeah. And it's just like, I'm just here for the birds too. like I do this. I do this. Yeah. I know some stuff now. know So, yeah, i don't know. It was very quick for me when I started birding out here. I was like, wow, okay, this is actually very problematic and
00:14:56
Speaker
I also like during that initial bald eagle experience, I always say this too, like when I got excited so did everybody else in my group, obviously it's cool. There was an older couple who immediately vocally shushed us in that moment. And I will never forget that because I hate that to my core. Like somebody is so thoroughly excited about like just outside something is happening outside and it How dare you try to control that moment and make it so that it benefits your own experience? That bald eagle didn't hear us. He was busy. He doesn't even care. He was eating. He didn't care at all. We're also in a city. okay. You know what I mean? Joyjackers, man. Exactly, right? Joyjackers. A lot of my initial experiences have informed how I
00:15:52
Speaker
Talk about birding, how I lead birding outings and the things that I am very firm on you changing. so Sure. You've very openly and consistently named how racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, all those things are embedded in outdoor recreation and conservation. And I wonder, what do you think people miss when they refuse to see that truth?
00:16:16
Speaker
That's a good question. i think at the end of the day, I think that the human population, human species are a species that thrives on connection, right? And being in groups, right? That is where we are at our finest is when we're together. And I think when people, specifically white white folks or even some non-Black people of color, don't acknowledge how history is deeply intertwined into everything that we experience today. If we're not acknowledging that, then there's no room to break down those barriers that have been built in.
00:16:55
Speaker
And then you just quite simply don't have the ability to connect with a stranger or a friend that you just met as well as you could.
00:17:05
Speaker
And I think that you also are not experiencing the full breadth of the world around you. Like you're really missing out on the details and the full picture of everything. If you're not interested in, if you're only interested in seeing one point of view or one narrative, then you are missing out on everything. You really touched on something i want to quick follow up on. How how does that historical erasure still shape burning spaces today?
00:17:39
Speaker
Well, I just recorded a podcast episode about that. That will be out soon. You know, and without getting too, you know, without getting too heady, too deep, because me and my guests talked for two hours about this. wow One aspect of it, I think i think there are many.
00:18:01
Speaker
One aspect of it is quite literally the Yeah, we got real lost in the sauce on this because I think that these are very large concepts that are hard to take a little bit smaller for for to simplify, I guess is what I'm saying. But I think there's just the way that we bird, right, today. The competition aspect of it, the listing, the the big year, the that way of birding is actually quite literally rooted in hunting and like ornithology back in the day that was built around competition to get the most bodies to then be considered bodies of birds, right? To then be considered birds. the best or the most knowledgeable ornithologist. Audubon was very guilty of this. He was a like competition with people collect the most amount of specimens, quote unquote, to then deem him the very best or the smartest. But really, all he was doing was like just killing birds and drawing them. And so it's just like that whole kind of narrative is still here today. i just like I said this at the conference that we were at, Jason. It's just been rebranded to look a little bit different, to be a little bit more accepted, though nothing has changed. Like it's not changed because the world around us is changing. It's changed to fit into what it is, but still be what what it was.
00:19:32
Speaker
Does that make sense? That makes
Rebranding Birding Narratives
00:19:34
Speaker
perfect sense. Right. It's it's it's the same principles and tenets. Right. It's the same hierarchical structure. Right. The same thing we felt when we went to our first bird outings and we weren't welcomed because someone felt like because of everything historically, we automatically were starting at the bottom. And the same thing is true through all that other stuff. And I'm wondering, like, y'all going to have to tune in to Sam's podcast to get the full detail because I don't want to give away any spoilers. But you had just talked about showing up to that bird outing and not feeling welcome, right? And part of that not feeling welcome is that people walk into those outings with this narrative in their head around newcomers, particularly newcomers of color, of non-European descent, right? And like, what narratives you think are most harmful that folks need to be aware of to Like if they're going into a bird outing, when they see someone new or they see someone that's from a background that's not theirs, for them to check themselves right away. Say, hey, am I thinking this?
00:20:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think that, and this is like part of my ongoing fight is that a lot of these pillars of racism don't ah exist in every facet of of what we do here, right? So in terms of birding, the pillar, one of the things is these stereotypes that people hold onto that like white people hold onto about about Black folks or about people of color that we don't like to be outside, that we can't afford to be outside, we can't afford the binoculars, we are doing, instead of wanting to go birding, that we would like to do XYZ stereotype instead.
00:21:12
Speaker
Play a sport. You know, whatever stereotype that you want to put in there instead of being in love with nature or being in yeah like in love with science or anything like that, that we don't like that kind of stuff. And I think that that's one of the bigger ones that people really have to check themselves if somebody is walking up. into your group or into your neighborhood or whatever. And they are just simply being curious to not assume that there's something else going on. Cause curiosity is literally the simplest form of what's happening. You know? god unless They see us on the side of the road with our big camera or something.
00:21:51
Speaker
We ain't doing nothing wrong. What do you think you're taking a picture of? Like, yes. Hello? Hello? it's so easy to see it in so many other places too. And this is the way it shows up in birding is quite unique, but like we're having this argument in Philly right now around parks that they're redesigning and they're saying, oh, these are for non-white communities. These are for black communities, but the only thing they want to put in the park is sports. When we ask for green space, they're like, No, no, no, no. We need more basketball courts and more soccer fields. And like and I'm like, yeah, but kids don't like birds. like you know like our our Our community doesn't need a safe, quiet green space. So it comes out in these different ways. And your brain your your your response just triggered that in me, yeah how it goes from a small birding group outing to local policy in your municipality. Yeah. That mentality comes from black men getting auctioned off on the block because of their physique, right? And so like, that's that's where that stereotype comes from. It's just, no, y'all just play sports. What? No, I want to read a book on this bench, you know, like, hello.
00:22:57
Speaker
I'd like to see a bald eagle eat a mallard. Like, can you just mean, seriously? and for real Sam, what what I love about you is you you about that life. And the Always Be Burden podcast is literally a direct response to what we've been talking about. What does it mean to you to build the antithesis to those dominant narratives that have been established that kind of label us in certain ways? When i started the podcast, you're right. It was quite literally a direct response to an experience that I was having at Portland Audubon, which was full of racism and sexism, despite literally in me anything that I was doing or or quite literally proving to them that they were doing that was wrong. And so...
00:23:37
Speaker
i i think I say this in like some of my earliest episodes is that like the reason that I wanted to even get on the mic was to vent. But then it turned into this really deep pain that I was experiencing at that time that I still could sit here and bawl my face off because I was pain.
00:24:01
Speaker
a position to do my dream work. And so I, and I chose to walk away because I was experiencing some crazy levels of racism. And what, what it means to me to continue to not only highlight how racism shows up in, in birding or ornithology or conservation or whatever, but also to like talk to other people is because I don't want anybody to feel as sad as I felt. Yeah. having to do that. I genuinely don't. That was one of the lower moments of my life. And be put in a position where you have to either continue to go home and cry every day fight with a battle that you will not win, eventually you will lose, or to walk away and make that choice for yourself over my age, my identity, my skin color, anything like that, that is so absurd. Like that is an absurd thing to have to do. And so for me, doing what I do on this podcast is like, it means everything to me because this is like my identity. This is my experience. And it's a shared experience that I have with many, many members of my community. And I know that because like, and y'all know that because we talk to everybody all the time about it. It's not...
00:25:22
Speaker
a one-off thing. And so I just like, don't ever want people to feel like they have to accept the way that this is set up because we don't.
Finding Joy and Healing in Birding
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's absolutely true. Folks, obviously at this point, if they don't know already, to know about your podcast. They're going to listen, right? It's joyful. It's sometimes political, but what you just talked there, are like having to manage those emotions, those feelings, right. And then flip that into a platform where you are then pushing directly against it. Talk to me about how you use joy in that resistance work. We've interviewed Drew Lanham, Dr. J. Drew Lanham, right? He's got the the poetry book, Joy is the Justice We Give Ourselves, right? Which is incredible. And it's a it's a I'll say it's a tough concept for a lot of people to get, is finding joy in the midst of pain and struggle. And I know for those of us that have grown up in Black communities, it's maybe a little bit easier for us to understand. But like how do you use it in your work? I think like right out the gate, I think it's also been an extremely difficult thing for me to maintain, to be honest, that I'm finding these days. um
00:26:29
Speaker
But, you know, when i first started the podcast or even first started leading birding outings, you know, I... And I still do believe that joy, joy as a as the deep antithesis to the hate that we do experience is political. It is a protest. It's a statement.
00:26:50
Speaker
Because how... else are we supposed to deal with the world? you know If we just sit in that glass is half empty mentality all the time, or we sit in defeat, or we try and stay in that fight, but that fight is fueled by only anger. That's hard. That's hard on your body. That is hard to maintain that. And so I think you have to, like in my latest podcast episode with my friend, Ja, who experienced a racially motivated wrongful termination, we're having this very serious conversation about what happened to him. But he kept goofing off and making these freaking jokes. And we were cracking up. And I had to be like, you know, we are laughing and experiencing this joyful moment together, because me and him understand the absurdity of it.
00:27:48
Speaker
We're still saying something very serious, but like in order for us to deal with and cope with the level of seriousness, the level of hurt that he had experienced, the level of aggression that was experienced towards him, we have to laugh. And he said it great. He was like, black people know how to do that the best.
00:28:07
Speaker
So I feel like I try to do that in my interviews and I try to do that on my outings is that we know why we're here. If you're on the Always Be Burning Podcast, you know why you're here. You're going to have a very serious part conversation. going to be a little difficult. It's going to be a little emotional, but we're going to kiki and laugh as well because that's important. I do think that it's important to utilize the things that have caused you pain, but that can't be the only thing that pushes at the narrative or the narrative change or the shift forward. It has to also be full of joy. as well
00:28:38
Speaker
That is powerful. i let you mention the outings, too. And I love like just kind of watching what you're organizing in your communities and and what you're doing. You're out with experts, baby birders, everybody. Right. Walks of life. What happens, Sam, when that knowledge, when you all are out and I always tell people when I'm out like on a BIPOC only hike or black only hike, the conversations are different. The jokes are different. The energies are different. What happens when you're out on those outings that you organize when that knowledge is starting to be shared horizontally? So I always start out my outings with like, you know, your name, your pronouns, and then like a little icebreaker thing. And that kind of, and then also like, how is this your first time birding? And even if there is nobody on my outing that is their first time out there, I'm going to treat it as if it's birding 101. My outings never really shift into like more, um, All the different red crossbow calls. yeah I don't do that. And part of that is that I don't know. You know what I mean? Like i don't bird like that. That's not my style. I don't know. And you don't know. So we're going to learn together. that's the horizontal part is when you don't act like you know everything, even if you do, free you don't act like you know everything. Because ultimately you really don't. Right. And so and I also really love that a lot of people that come out on my outings are extremely knowledgeable in something outside that I don't know nothing about. Nine times out of ten is Clint. I don't know nothing about. That plant right there, i don't i don't know. But other people do. And that is also a horizontal share because birds and plants naturally go together. It's not pretending like you know everything. And then it's also so not pretending or assuming that anyone on your your outing doesn't know something that is beneficial to the conversation.
00:30:41
Speaker
That maybe doesn't have nothing do with birth. That's how you make everybody feel welcome, too. Yeah. It's like a great way just to level set it. You belong here. You belong here. you I'm getting my Oprah on. You belong here. You yeah but it it is. And and I love that approach. is I do that every time too. Any new birders here and it's like every event, there's at least a hand or more sometimes multiple. And I'm always really excited. And we clap for those people and we let them know right away. If you have any questions, I'll point out our, our, you know, our leadership people and let them know, Hey, you can ask any of these people questions. And then I say, you know what? And a lot of the folks here, they can answer your questions as well. And next thing you know, Now people know they're surrounded and they know like I'm in a community. Like I can ask questions. I don't have to be afraid. I can point at something that I've never seen before and say, what's that? Or what did, what, what did you hear? And it just, it changes the entire vibe. And then they go home and they say to themselves, dang, I belong outside. That was kind of cool. I'm going back out with Sam. Sam and I'm kind of cool. You know, I'm going back out. So yeah I love it. you're You're doing it the right way.
00:31:54
Speaker
I'll be trying, you know. Is there anything that you've learned? and i know you do outings all over the the city. Is there anything your guests have taught you that you didn't expect? You know, and I want to say this, this that this isn't necessarily even about birds or being or like nature. But one thing that like I have.
00:32:14
Speaker
learned to foster is actually not talking about birds while we're out. So a lot of times people genuinely just want to hang out with other another person and just be outside. And so like lately I've just been saying, you know, we're just hanging out together, but we're just happened to be looking for birds because it does something that people have challenged me with as a birding leader, right? Is that like every moment doesn't need to be spent talking about birds or spitting facts or like filling empty time with some kind of knowledge, you know what I mean? And that a lot of times, like, you know, I'll be walking and people are just like kicking with each other behind me about whatever, because a lot of times they also know each other or they don't, but poor even in small,
00:33:00
Speaker
And so they know of each other. It's just, you know, it's just and so like, there's a lot of crossover there. What a lot of my outing people who come on my outings have taught me has is to like, let the outing be whatever it's going to be.
00:33:15
Speaker
It could be heavy on birds. It could be heavy on nothing. you know what I mean? That so good. I don't think people understand how powerful that is. That's the approach I actually take with kids. Yeah, exactly. right I don't don't make it about birds. I literally, my whole goal is for them to have fun outside. exactly And we ain't nothing but big kids. they yes If we can be outside and we enjoy ourselves and I'm, you know, along the way, if I see something cool, I hear something cool. I'm going to get excited. I'm going to point it out. Exactly. And eventually they're going to be like, well, what was that? You know,
00:33:53
Speaker
completely natural, not forcing it on nobody. And now they see that joy coming out of me. Now they're curious. And next thing you know, somebody else sees it. They see this person ask a question. It's like this domino effect. So I think that is fantastic advice to all burden leaders, even like the experts that, you know, just sometimes iron just let it be what it's going be. And it's okay.
00:34:17
Speaker
You don't have to patent that, Sam. You have to patent that. Yeah. Let it be what it's going to be. That's really incredible. Can I just, lastly, on the podcast, you were, I mean, for Dexter and I, you were the first one on the scene, right? And you were very instrumental influencing how we wanted to approach this podcast. What has doing that podcast hosting taught you about yourself? in terms of how you are going to be exploring, right? Because you have these really, really deep conversations, right? I've slapped my steering wheel multiple times listening to your podcast episode and be like, yes! Yes! So how is that, when you turn off the headphones and you hang up the mic and you go walk into the other room after a two-hour conversation with your homie, how are you internalizing that for yourself? I think that this, it's a difficult question because I think that any crossover loyal Bird Joy and Always Be Bird and podcast listener knows that I have not put out an episode in a very long time.
Pausing the Podcast and Community Work
00:35:19
Speaker
I had like about a three-year hiatus because it took a lot out of me to have those conversations.
00:35:26
Speaker
It took so much out of me, y'all. And not because of, because simultaneously I'm having so much fun And so much joy in connecting with our community online. It has been, you know, because of Black Birders Week, it has been such a wonderful thing to witness how we have all come together in what I would deem some really true good friendships online, right? Having these conversations, you know, mixed in with joy and and the love of the birds, right? So like on one hand, I'm having so much fun and doing this and I love that.
00:36:05
Speaker
that fuels me, to be honest, is connecting with like my community and and platforming them, right? But on the other hand, getting off of a call that is two hours, hour, two hours of hearing somebody's pain is really hard. And internalizing it has put me in this space where I feel like I got to a point where I felt i if I didn't do this, then nothing would change. Like it felt very on me. Right. And, and, and everybody should realize that like always be burning is just, I do everything by myself. And so it just, it was a lot. And, and I, and I really, really did succumb to it and had to take a a break from that. sure I really did. And because it was hard for me to internalize the juxtaposition of how much joy I was experiencing with how much pain and space
00:36:58
Speaker
that i the containers that i want to build on my on my podcast of safety and hearing people tell me about being sexually assaulted outside while they're birding is heavy yo you know and so it makes me it puts me in this space where yes the joy fuels me but when i hear this too that fuels me just as much to be like we're not doing this no more jason that It was hard and it is still really hard. And it it is it is also deeply entrenched in who I am. And so it's not something that I feel like quitting anytime soon. But I did really need to take a break.
00:37:35
Speaker
You know, you didn't you didn't necessarily take a break. You took a break from podcasts, but you made room to do a lot of other stuff. Yeah. Boots on the ground, creating those spaces in the real world to go out and be in community with folks. yeah And you needed it.
00:37:52
Speaker
Yeah, I needed that joy. I needed the bird joy. Yeah, you need your community needed it. And that that is that's what we're here for, the community. And when we were at the you mentioned Black Birders Week, when we were at the Black Birders retreat, you talked about all of us. You talked about these relationships and these friendships that we've been building. You talked about us all being part of this mycelium like network. Can you explain that metaphor for our listeners? Because When I heard you say that we were sitting in that barn, I was like so inspired because I was looking around and I was just like, yeah, like we are all connected. And I have kind of seen that from that day and, you know, from since the beginning of Black Birders Week, all of us connecting across the country in different cities and communities. Can you talk to us about why you see it as that mycelium like network? I don't know why. just like love that reference because I think it's just so cool. And the way that like mycelium works. Also, apparently Oregon has one of the largest mycelium networks in the country slash maybe the world. I'm not sure. So that's a fun note. But, you know, all of that stuff is the mycelium way of operating has many levels. And so there's straight up communication. There's straight up like nutrition passing. And then there's kind of also this idea of like,
00:39:16
Speaker
resting while another part will work. Right. And so I think that for me, I think my initial idea of the mycelium network was to, especially with our online community, um was to kind of like have this kind of weird guerrilla, like guerrilla warfare type tactic of like, we all talking an underground online. Yeah. This is how we going overturn, you know, light it all on fire, right? They're not going to know what we're talking about because we're underground and we're not visible. And so like, but I think that ultimately the way that i end up seeing it is that community can be so vast.
00:39:59
Speaker
And it doesn't necessarily need to be these people just in your immediate surroundings. And yes, though that is important because it is your immediate surroundings. But for me, in order to truly change anything, it has to be vast. Those connections has to be everywhere. And the communication has to be equal, right?
00:40:19
Speaker
and and And that's kind of how I feel about that. And I also really enjoy tying the mycelium network with flock of birds. Help me, y'all birders. Murmuration. Thank you. Yes. This is kicking in. um My Red Bull is kicking in. Yes. I like to mush the mycelium network idea with the murmuration as well, because the murmuration and how that tactic of evading or self-preservation against something that is aggressing, right, along with the mycelium network is really a powerful tool. I think that like we as birders totally understand.
00:41:01
Speaker
in a way, like a way to shift that narrative and start to kind of change things. I love that mycelium network. I know our listeners will as well. And I love our mycelium network. And it is very much fun. Very much is fun. Yeah. I was thinking about um the fact that trees will actually pass nutrients through that network to other trees when they're not well. And just thinking about that with us, right? And you've
00:41:32
Speaker
you've You've created the pathway for a lot of people to to do that, to create that community through birds, but also just the birds are what bring us to the place, but it's the other humans and the interactions that kind of make us stay.
00:41:44
Speaker
and you've And you've helped create and hold those spaces for black and brown people in nature. What are some key elements that make those spaces feel genuinely safe and affirming for folks? I think the concept of like a safe space has kind of been these days. Sure, yeah. And manipulated into something that actually isn't safe, right? And so I think all I try to do is get give moments where people just can say whatever they want to say and be however they want to be Sam's judgment.
00:42:21
Speaker
And I think that's the biggest part of like any... or safe feeling from anyone, whether it's like me and Dexter sitting in a room chatting or at or it's me in, you know, a group of people out birding. It's just like, however you want to show up today, that's how you're going to show up. And I understand Hmm.
00:42:41
Speaker
need Right. To not always be on, not always be trying to be normal. I don't know. Maybe you don't want to say nothing. Right. Maybe you want to dive into that, that angry, deep, sad part. Maybe we just joking, whatever, you know. And so I think that that to me is how. how you create a safe space and like how I tend to try and do mine. It's just like, yeah, however you want to show up today, i accept it. I mean, unless you're trying to like harm me, like we're not doing that. It's just Sam's judgment most of the time. And I think that that also goes to like your, the mention of the mycelium network doing, giving nutrients to other parts of the network when they need it.
00:43:25
Speaker
That's also a safe space, right, of when you want to rest, you can rest and I'm going to do the work. I got you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, yep yeahp and no I love basically what you're saying, bird as you are.
00:43:39
Speaker
hmm. Show up in nature as you are. And and that's OK. Right. However you're feeling that day, it's OK. Right. It's just fine. Whatever you need to be in that moment, just be it. And I'm here for you no matter what that might be. so Because nature does not really subscribe to out the boxes that we have created for ourselves to fit jam ourselves into. They're not. Literally, quite literally not concerned with anything. Their nature is just going to exist as it is no matter what. and it will shift and it will morph and it will, you know, burn down and grow back. It will ebb and flow. And that is, I think, a huge lesson that we can take from the thing that we love to observe. Right.
00:44:21
Speaker
This is a good segue because if you've never been birding with Sam, you need to go birding with Sam. And one thing that I always, i don't know which episode it was of yours, but you were talking about ecotourism and about the way the system works right now with where the money's going relative to the people in the local community that you're going to see the birds in. And so you and I, i think, have chatted a little bit about it, but you're also involved in ecotourism and and I think trying to get some things going. How does that work?
00:44:51
Speaker
kind of align with your values around liberation and community care and maybe tell people a little bit about like what you're trying to get going. Currently, i'm i'm I've paused on the ecotourism aspect of what I'm trying to do, mostly because I've not quite figured out how to do it in a way that doesn't continue that like kind of weird system of So essentially, if you wanted to go on an international birding trip, you could go to like Portland Audubon, go to their website. Where are they going? Oh, they're going to go to, i don't know, Uganda.
00:45:28
Speaker
And you can pay upwards to $2,000 to secure your spot and then pay even more money to then go on that trip. That's probably only 10 days. Right. And then really what I found with that is that that really is open to not that very fast.
00:45:46
Speaker
That's not very accessible for many people who just has $2,000 laying around to just like instantly hold your spot and then more money to like then go on the trip. And then timing wise, I think that leaves it very much open to like old retired white birders. What I was finding was that that was very like, because I had always wanted to go on a trip like that, but I can't afford it. There's no way that I can do it. So i was like, how can I do something similar and do it differently? And i think like in my ideal world of worlds, I would love to do something similar for BIPOC people only um and going to places and doing it.
00:46:23
Speaker
in a ethical traveling way where you are specifically going and you're hiring guides who are not employed by white organizations in a black or brown country because they're not getting the money. It's usually these white organizations that are getting that money, right? Or at least so most of it, right?
00:46:44
Speaker
How can we find local guys that are independent or whatever? And then how can we stay in places that are place in a place where we're not taking over, Americans can tend to do that. sure sure No matter who you are in America, we just have that fricking bravado about ourselves. yeah And where are we eating? are we Is our money going directly to the community that we are invading essentially to look at birds or is our money going to like big hotel names? are Is our money going to like these big ecotourism companies and other places that are like, again, ran by usually 1% type of situation? And I found that, yeah, you can do that. It's it's incredibly difficult to do. And then how how can we get people to go on these trips and afford it? And that's incredibly difficult to do. Like you almost have to have money in order to have folks not spend money. Does that make sense? you know Yeah, yeah. so It's just Yeah, it's been an ongoing thing for me. I mean, I was able to do a couple events like way back in the day. I went, I'll call it like a mini ecotourism where I went and did a birding series in New York City and then down in Philly with you, Jason. And I tried my best to, I had a grant, my grant from just outside. So I was able to like completely over quote unquote overpay all of the guides that I hired from New York City because I I'm not trying to go over there to the East Coast talking about, I don't know what I'm looking at. You know what i mean? I don't know what an oven bird is or a red start. I don't know what that is. So like, why would I go over there pretending like I know anything? And so I paid them and I wanted them to be able to say, this is my rate to anybody else who wants to hire them. Because I think that's also a thing too, is that people will get duped out of getting payment to be a guide or to lead an outing. And you can say, no, my rate is $300 actually. For two hours. but And then making it a community thing where then I also had the money to then take it that group of people for whatever borough we were in out to lunch after. And I paid for everything. so But I had the money and I'm like, I can't do that every day. And my other one was down in Malheur, Oregon. And that was an overnight camping trip. And it was everything was free for them.
00:49:09
Speaker
Except for the just general cost, but it was sliding scale. You could pay as little or as much as you wanted. i made no money back on that. And that was obviously not the point, but I paid for the food. We did everything. And so it was really just like, do you want to come and camp and go birding? let's go so i tried it's just like i haven't figured out how to make that sustainable yeah i think it lot of there could be somebody out there listening gotta line to some more grants or you want to help make eco-terrorism more just you know that that's beautiful i leave it to sam to be doing that work i think that's so dope she's the one that i think about. She's the one I think about. Anytime I go somewhere, right, I'm asking the questions up front of like, well, who's the group and country that we're working with? Who's the other company?
00:49:58
Speaker
And if you ever go on one of those trips, I mean, one of us is always in what, Korea? Is that where you always are? South Korea? I'm always in Korea, yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah. Whether it's South Korea or Africa or like India, like the dollar, the money that you spend in a lot of these communities has a lot of impact. And like taking the time, I mean, folks are listening, just at least taking the time to understand where that's going and making sure that's the right choice for you ethically is something you should know, you know, coming out of this conversation for sure. And also that like, you're going to be a voyeur. Yeah. You know, like you're going to look at birds and like, that is a voyeuristic thing. It is not necessary for you to do.
00:50:40
Speaker
And so doing it in the most ethical way is like, to me the only, like that's a no brainer because you don't need to be in this country at all, but actually. And so, you know, it just just do it the best way that you know how, right? You know what, Sam, I can't tell you how excited I was to see that you're back and you're recording again and you're in Always Be Burden podcast is back. Your batteries are recharged and you're back to to have these meaningful conversations. What's coming up next for you in the Always Be Burden podcast? Yeah, I am very, very much focused on releasing new podcast episodes. And I am shifting a little bit away from how I was doing my episodes originally um in terms of I'm just I'm kind of over the... struggle narrative. i we know, and my podcast is for us, right? Like we know to struggle. I'm, I'm, I think it was necessary at the time because so much was happening in terms of Black Birders Week and like all of the like Black Lives Matter protests in the country. And like, just up once again in our history, highlighting that Black and Brown people suffer, right? In anything. Yeah.
00:51:57
Speaker
And so a lot of my episodes were about that suffering and like highlighting it and giving folks the space to express that and in a safe way for us. Right. And I think many people have benefited from it. I truly 100% benefited from it, but I don't want a platform to struggle narrative anymore. I'm just really ready for what do we need to do to change it? That's where I'm at. Action. Action. You know, i'm I'm about the action part and like talking about and kind of like highlighting that in way more detail, how racism and and slavery and all of these things impact us today and what that looks like, not just in Birding, but all around. And like, what do we need to now do to change this fricking narrative? Because it just keeps getting rebranded every like 50 years, you know? I'm sick of it, you know? Yeah. We keep talking about, we keep having the same damn conversation, you know? And so I'm like, well, let's, let's, let's figure out what we gotta do.
00:52:59
Speaker
So make sure y'all are tuning in, checking out that podcast. If you don't know about it, you should know, go back and listen to the previous seasons as well. All right. It's time for the lightning round.
00:53:12
Speaker
What's the lightning round? Oh no. Our lightning round. I'm going to call an audible on one of my questions too, Dex. I think I got All right.
00:53:26
Speaker
So what we do, Sam, we just ask you a question and then you just have to, whatever pops in your head, you know? Okay, let's go. All right. Solo birding or birding in a community? Birding in a community.
00:53:38
Speaker
Okay. Urban birds or wild places? Wild places. All right. Binoculars or vibes? Vibes. Learning birds by ear or by sight? ooh By sight because I'm really bad at it by ear. A bird that still takes your breath away?
00:53:56
Speaker
Cormorant. oh That's a good bird. Birding as rest or birding as resistance? Both. Good answer. Field guide or asking the group what they think it is?
00:54:11
Speaker
Ooh, ask in the group. I don't know how to use it for you guys. All right. One word that describes what community birding makes possible.
00:54:22
Speaker
Joy. All right. Finish this sentence. Always be birding means. Ooh, always be birding means community resistance.
00:54:33
Speaker
Mm, mm, I like it. All right. We got a few taglines emerging. So, man, we got it. Let's go. Oh, this is awesome. If birding is a tool for collective liberation, what is its greatest strength? Birding is a tool for collective liberation.
00:54:53
Speaker
Oh my God, you got me. I don't like that's a hard one. That's what we're going to let people think on. Maybe we'll just let people think on that one. Right. But I do got one more bonus question. I got South Korean bonus question. You got to choose one of these two birds. Okay.
00:55:06
Speaker
Eurasian magpie or Japanese tit? Eurasian magpie. Look at him coming with the bonus questions. I love that time. It's about birds. And i'm you know i'm I'm like here for her. right She's got like the the gorilla camera style walking down the street. you know that i'm I'm sitting there trying to figure out. And I'm like, where is she I'm like on the Merlin app.
00:55:28
Speaker
in Korea. Yeah. That's dope. Man, this is crazy. i mean, we're already over time. Like these conversations go really fast. Sam, thank you so much. Before I let you go, though, i want to ask you one last question. What do you hope somebody who feels like they do not belong in birding takes away from this conversation?
00:55:48
Speaker
I really hope that if you if you find this episode or whatever and you're like, dang, I really love birds, but I feel like I'm not a birder. i hear people say that all the time. I'm not a birder. I'm like, I don't even know what that means, to be honest. But I think that...
00:56:04
Speaker
One, you you feeling like you don't belong is you're not alone in those feelings. And because you're not alone in those feelings, know that almost all of us have never felt like we, as Black and Brown birders, have never felt like we belong. And now we do because of this community that we have built.
00:56:22
Speaker
yeah And that this community is for you. It is open to you. Find us, anybody. I feel like you can hit up me, Dexter, Jason, any of us in our DMs and we will love to have a conversation with you.
00:56:35
Speaker
That might be the greatest strength right there. Yeah, yeah. That might be it. That's all of us together. That mycelium network. I think that might be it. it's It's crazy too because how much because we do have conversations in our DMs. There are people that like Like I'm going, like we're going to San Diego. Dexter, there are people that are like, yo, I've been following you for a while. I live in San Diego. I'm coming out there. yeah like Yeah. And, and, and, and it's just, you just added that extra piece to the network now. Like, and so I encourage people to follow Sam's instructions, speak up, reach out.
00:57:11
Speaker
You deserve to be here. You belong here. Yeah. And we are so happy to have you. Yes, yes, yes. I want to thank everybody for tuning in today to the Bird Joy podcast. I want to give a big, big Wisco Birder shout out to Sam.
00:57:26
Speaker
This has been, knew it was going to be great. I knew it was going to be great. This was beyond what it was. We got taglines and slowings. If you ain't fired up after this conversation and motivated to get outside and realize that you belong there, man, I don't know what to say.
00:57:43
Speaker
I don't know what to say. Me either. Damn, thank you so much. Thank you guys so much for having me on. I also knew that it was going to be very fun, you know, because I feel like whenever whenever we get together, like, it's a good time. Like, we have a good time. Yes. And so... And I know that y'all are very much on the same page as me in many respects as well. So I i appreciate being able to have this kind conversation with too.
00:58:12
Speaker
Man, man, man, man. It's been a beautiful day, Jason. I mean, I'm so happy. Season four is the gift that keeps on giving. Make sure y'all give this gift to other people.
00:58:25
Speaker
Please share, subscribe, let people know what's going on here. But yeah. Until next time. and I just remind everybody out there, birding is for everyone. If this conversation didn't fix it for you, I don't know what will. So just remember that, and we'll see you all next time.
00:58:38
Speaker
Peace.