Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Science, Style, and Wonder with Divya Anantharaman
654 Plays4 days ago
What happens when fashion, natural history, conservation, and art collide?
In this episode of Bird Joy, we’re joined by New York City’s premier licensed professional taxidermist, Divya Anantharaman, an award-winning artist whose work spans museums, galleries, fashion houses, and natural history institutions. Divya specializes in birds, small mammals, and anatomic anomalies, blending scientific precision with emotional storytelling and symbolic design. Check out her work here.
Divya’s path wasn’t linear. She left the corporate fashion world to pursue her love of natural history, becoming the resident taxidermist at the Morbid Anatomy Museum and building a global following for her taxidermy, skeletal, and entomology displays, as well as jewelry and wearable art rooted in wonder.
Divya shares insights from her feature in the documentary Rearranging Skin, her book Stuffed Animals: A Modern Guide to Taxidermy, and her collaborations with institutions, artists, and conservation groups like NYC Bird Alliance and NYC Plover Project.
At its heart, this conversation explores the human-animal relationship, conservation, legacy, memory, and what becomes possible when science becomes art.
If you’ve ever felt the pull of curiosity toward feathers, form, history, or preservation, this episode is for you.
Science. Style. Wonder. And a whole lot of Bird Joy!
Recommended
Transcript
Season 4 Launch: Bird Joy Returns
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to season four of the Bird Joy podcast. Your hosts Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall are back with more birds, more bird joy, and plenty of laughs along the way.
00:00:11
Speaker
Each episode brings new stories, fun conversations, and a whole flock of good vibes. We're happy you're here. We really miss the homies and we hope you enjoy this season.
00:00:23
Speaker
You ready? Let's go.
Meet Divya Anantharaman: NYC's Taxidermy Artist
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome back to the Bird Joy podcast, homies. We are so happy to be back with you today. We have a special guest for you all today.
00:00:33
Speaker
Today's guest brings together science, style, conservation and storytelling in one of the most unique ways we have ever encountered. Divya Anantharaman is New York City's premier licensed professional taxidermist and an award-winning artist whose work spans museums, galleries, fashion, and natural history spaces. Her specialties include birds, small mammals, and anatomic anomalies, and her work blends the precision of scientific presentation with the emotional and symbolic language of art. Divya left the corporate fashion industry to pursue her love of natural history as the resident taxidermist at the Mormont Anatomy Museum.
00:01:12
Speaker
Since then, she has built a global following, creating taxidermy, skeletal, entomology displays, along with jewelry and wearable art for those who find wonder in the natural world. She was recently featured in and the award-winning documentary Rearranging Skin, is the co-author of Stuffed Animals, a modern and guide to taxidermy, and works part-time in the historic George Dante studio, preserving museum collections and exhibits for future generations. Her clients include Natural History Museums, Tiffany & Co. Hey, now, that's best big time. Columbia University, Neil Patrick Harris, and David Berka. Divya works with organizations like the and NYC Bird Alliance and and NYC Plover Project. She runs a rescue and as ensures all animal materials are legally and sustainably obtained. At the heart of her work is a deep curiosity about the human-animal relationship, conservation, and enchantment with nature, and what happens when science becomes art.
00:02:07
Speaker
We are honored to welcome Divya to the Bird Joy Podcast.
From Fashion to Taxidermy: Divya's Journey
00:02:10
Speaker
What's up, homie? Hey, for having me This is fantastic. Jason I, when you told me we had a taxidermist, I was like, you know, like for real? Like I was like, you serious? And then when I went to Divya's social media and her website, I was like, whoa, we are, we are in the presence of something pretty special today, folks. Divya, how you feeling today? Where are you joining us from? Hi, I'm feeling great. It's always a pleasure to talk to fellow bird people. And um I'm joining from Brooklyn, New York City. wo Let's go. New York. we got a lot of New York homies out there. We've had a few. podcast so Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool.
00:02:51
Speaker
You ah covered in snow up there, too, like like I am here in Philly. Yeah, it's still coming down. It's still like it's it's going steady. Nice and everything has that thick white blanket over it. I know. My son was just out there getting pelted in the face by freezing rain. and yeah Divya, you started your career in the corporate fashion industry. Can you take us back to that moment when you were like, nah, this ain't it. And you needed to leave that world and pursue natural history and and and taxidermy. That's just such an awesome pivot. Like, tell us about that.
00:03:23
Speaker
Thank you. yeah So, um I mean, as a kid and and even now as an adult, I have always loved art and I've always loved um making things with my hands. I'm just like a person. My hands need to be busy, but I also love nature and nature.
00:03:38
Speaker
animals. um Fashion is something I got into because I like with all of those loves, I love clothing, I love aesthetics, and I love um how transformative a garment can be. You know, it's just really, it's really amazing. Like, you know, we all have like, even if you're, even if someone doesn't consider themselves a fashion person, we all have that t-shirt we put on that makes us feel really good that we're like, man, I wish this came in like a million colors. I wish I had 20 of these, but only one, you know, so everyone has something that makes them feel good and it transforms you. So I love that fashion could do that. um And in the fashion world, I worked in um leather goods and shoes. So it was working with, um you know, it's working with animal products because leather is an animal product.
00:04:20
Speaker
But something that really drew me to leather was how, you know, this is a once living animal, but when you wear it as a shoe or as a jacket, it protects you and it lasts forever. You're meant to take care of this last forever. You can pass it down.
00:04:33
Speaker
I was really into vintage and thrifting when I was younger. So a lot of the things I own are passed down and formally done. So the fact that something could live multiple lives, like that's what really got me into working with leather as a, you know, as a material, but also as something, something that's a bit more than a material because it comes from something that was formerly alive. yeah.
00:04:54
Speaker
I got into that. My mom was a biology teacher, so she was a science influence in my
Inspiration and Influence: Biology and Fashion
00:05:00
Speaker
life. And she had a lot of teaching specimens. So when I was young, I would see these teaching specimens, whether they were bird study skins or, um you know, butterflies in cases or like a hearts or brains in jars, you know, all of the all of the things that a biology teacher would have in there, you know, in a classroom. But I saw them as more than just like a specimen. I saw them as these little works of art because I knew someone had to make them, you know, and I asked, you know, I asked her, I was like, how was this stuff done? Like, you know, what did they do? And it's like, oh, someone prepared this. I saw more of the empathy and the heart behind it than just a purely like sterile scientific aspect behind it. So I've always had that interest in animals in that way, too, and like preservation in that way, too. But when I was looking up taxidermy, as i was growing up and learning what that would be, the things I saw weren't really my vibe. So they were more of like serving more of a commercial interest or more of the interest of like putting a deer head on a wall. And that is a whole other world. Yeah, it is. And there's a world of that that's really sure you know that's very passionate about conservation and stewardship of the land and everything like that. But I grew up in Miami and I live in New York City now. I'm a city person and cities have lots of amazing nature. People don't have room for deer heads on the wall here. And the animals I connected to were these small birds, small mammals, and just the little things that kind of go overlooked in our in our cities. So that's where the interest came from. yeah.
00:06:22
Speaker
Because I didn't see anyone doing that, I was like, I guess my taxidermy thing will be my little hobby while I pursue a career and pay my bills in in fashion. sure So yes, that's like a long winded way of getting to where I was. But that's that's how I got into um head into fashion. And I went to school for that, worked in that field from like you know from internship to being a director and did that for for quite some time for about, I mean, over 10 years I was doing that. and um The more I worked and the more I progressed in the fashion industry, the more I realized it wasn't about the things in fashion that I loved. Like I like when people put something on and feel good or feel powerful or feel or feel changed or just feel transformed in some way. But the mainstream fashion world is about selling you as much stuff as possible. And honestly, it's also about making you feel bad about yourself. So you buy more stuff and that sucks. Like that's not nice, you know, but it's also how capitalism. Yay. No, that's just how it's it's bits built on that. If it was about, if it was built on making people feel good, it would be a lot less profitable, I guess. The more I saw that, the more I saw there were so many things that were being made. you know When I started in fashion, we had um four to six seasons a year that we were designing for. When I left, we had over 20 to 25 seasons. That means 20 to 25 times that items were being delivered to a store, 20 to 25 collections that I was designing per year, which... Designing stuff is fun, but that also means you're making this stuff too. And it's um it was just unsustainable.
00:07:58
Speaker
um you know From a personal standpoint, you know I was working like crazy hours. Also from yeah i guess from that professional and personal standpoint and from the standpoint of, I don't believe in this much stuff being made. and Yeah, it's a lot waste.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's a lot of waste. And um the animal and nature lover in me was like, why are we wasting for this? This isn't this is a completely avoidable type of waste. And No one's really feeling good about
Transition to Taxidermy
00:08:23
Speaker
this. so um i slowly started to invest more in my taxidermy hobby thinking, you know, what if I could make it a career? um Let's see. Let's kind of put this stuff out there. And in like 2013, 2012, put some stuff on social media, the early Instagram and Facebook days. So I started putting stuff out there with that, started um meeting people in New York City. So the Morbid Anatomy Museum was a place that um had a lot of different events and they offered to host a taxidermy event with me, which was really nice. That's also when I started to look for ways I could invest in learning taxidermy while still having a job in fashion.
00:09:03
Speaker
So a lot of. Yeah. Yeah. So it was sort of like a slow, you know, slow merging of those two or slowly like leaving one world while entering another.
00:09:15
Speaker
That's a. I love that so much. It was like a movie to me. Like, I don't know, like I was hanging out with my wife and daughter and watching movies about New York fashion and Meryl Streep, Glenn Close and a couple of movies. And like and I'm like, man, this would have been a much better plot line. Right. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Right. This would have been out there, you know, like, please, somebody get the rights.
00:09:36
Speaker
Call up the homie because this this is this sounds great. and And I'm so curious about this. So was there you you talked about, like, regularly realizing, like, this is a lot of waste, 20 to 25 seasons a year. So I'll be in delivered like.
00:09:48
Speaker
Was there ah a moment that you can remember where you're like, no, that's it. I got to be done. And then once you started making that transition, how did your emotions change? How did your mental health change at all? Like when you started doing the thing that you felt more
Balancing Art and Science in Taxidermy
00:10:01
Speaker
connected to? Yeah, that's a great question. so i'm I don't know if there was one specific moment. I think like there were a lot of times for my job, there was a lot of travel involved, which was really amazing. You know, was doing this in my So, you know, it was an amazing opportunity to travel and see a lot of different places and, you know, see the world and really cool to see something that you drew the computer or on paper. Mostly it was on the computer, but something that you drew turn into three-dimensional object and then see people on the subway wearing that. and walking around with it. That was really cool. So that was something I really enjoyed. But with that travel, would go lot to the factories to go and work with the production team to help ensure everything was made well. And a lot of these factories are in Asia. And so even with translation and everything, there's a bit of a communication barrier. So you have to be really patient. And listen, English is my own second language. So for someone whose language is completely different from English speaking it, I'm just like, all right, cool. We'll like just work slowly. We'll, we'll work through this and, and make sure this, you know, we'll make sure that like the pink I'm talking about is the same pink that you're talking about. And we'll have to go back and forth. But I guess like one of the like defining moments of me wanting to leave wasn't so much related to waste, but related to the humanity of people because I worked with,
00:11:26
Speaker
like the head of the company, like one of the companies I was working for, I was like pretty much like right hand to the head. And he just blew up and yelled at someone at the factory because they just didn't understand the stitch color that he wanted. And I was like,
00:11:42
Speaker
You're like a grown man with like over a six figure salary and you're yelling at someone about a piece of string that's the wrong color. Like, come on. Like, this isn't what grownups do. This isn't what adults do. This isn't what humans do. You know, I don't know. Like, I could see a little kid having a tantrum like that because they might not have the executive functions fully formed yet. you know We're adults.
00:12:03
Speaker
And there's such a power dynamic at play as well when you're someone in a senior position too to that. So that really just soured me to it. you know I was like, I know I'm in this because I have to. um I'm not independently wealthy. I've got to pay my bills. And this is what's paying my bills right now. So I can't just be like, I quit, like movie style. was I'm I mean, we're going to have to write that in. We're going to have to take some creative liberty when we get to script written. Mix note on script.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah. there was no That was the reason why it was like a slow transition out. Sure. It's like it was really, um yeah, i couldn't have been, you know, it'd be awesome if it was dramatic, but it there was no like realistic way for it to be dramatic. But that moment really made me realize, you know, like the things I love about fashion weren't going to be in the corporate world.
00:12:53
Speaker
They were going to be n I guess, in something independent or or just not at all. But it really just soured me to all of that. And I said, I've got to find a way out and I've got to find a way to, you know, work this hard, but work towards something that makes people happy and that gets people connected to something greater than themselves.
Influential Childhood: Connecting Kids with Nature
00:13:12
Speaker
and and Yeah, yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker
That that warms my heart. Another thing that warmed my heart was you talking about how your mom as the biologist exposed you to these skins and butterflies and cases at a young age. And I always tell people the kids, right? Having the little kids that can see something um and especially in a birding space, maybe it sparks something in them bigger than just being outside and looking at birds. Maybe they say I could be a wildlife ecologist.
00:13:44
Speaker
I could be this. I could be that. And it sounds like at an early age you were exposed to that wonder. And I just think that is really fantastic. And to see that put in you early and you finding that connection to your passion for art at such a young age, that is powerful. And that's why I always tell people, like, we need to create these opportunities for these young folks to do these amazing things, to be in these amazing spaces, to be in nature, to be exposed to science and the wonder of science, um because it could change their life and it could change it early. So that I just that just really kind of warmed my heart. I do want to talk a little bit about your transition to the Morbid Anatomy Museum and how that space, once you once you got there, once you made that transition, start to shape your identity in that space, both as an artist and a scientist. Could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, sure. um So at the Morbid Anatomy Museum, that was one of the, that was the first venue that I started teaching taxidermy classes at. And I started teaching taxidermy classes when I became more comfortable in like as a taxidermist and more established. So that was like after i was, when I was still in fashion and still learning and still freelancing, I would go to taxidermy competitions and I would try to learn at those things and you know once i started Once I started winning, that was when I was like, okay, I think now I can do this as a job because now i mean now it means I'm good or good enough to to do this. Moabit Anatomy was the first venue that I would teach classes at. And they're a museum of not just taxidermy, but they do all sorts of things that are kind of like obscure so obscure art science
00:15:22
Speaker
life, death, things at the intersections of of all of that. And um so they would have like, in addition to taxidermy, they have things about like, they have lectures about historic cemeteries or workshops on Victorian hair art, or, you know, just runs the, it runs like such an interesting variety of things. So being around that and being around other people who had their own interests that they were, you know, these own like kind of very niche passions that were really specific. It was really nice because you're around people who are people who are passionate, which is always great. That was great. And having a venue to teach out of was really, you know, was really wonderful too, especially in a place like New York City, having a place to gather is is so important. And so, um you know, you you can have a lot of community online, which I do, which is really great. But having a place in person, something tangible was really, really wonderful. And teaching is really a lot of how I made that transition from fashion into fashion.
00:16:17
Speaker
working up full-time as a taxidermist and opening my own business and everything. Because we were doing, when I first started teaching, I was you know i was still working in fashion. So we were like, all right, let's do like a couple classes a year. and there was such a demand for it that they were like, would you feel about doing a couple more classes per year? And I was like, sure. And then it turned into once a month. And at that point, I was what kind of, I was burning the candle at both ends. So my mental health was fried. Yeah. So, like, you know, working. Yeah, I was just always working and not sleeping. So I was like, I really have to make a choice. um So that's when that's when i that's what I was like, all right, let me do my my budgeting and see if um if these classes do fill like.
00:17:01
Speaker
like If these once a month classes do fill for a year, then I'll stop. Then I'll stop my fashion. um Then I'll like slowly pull out of my fashion jobs little by little. um And I'll slowly start putting more of my work out there and getting other and income streams that aren't just the classes there, but things that are for my own business, like doing commissions and selling artwork or working like selling at art markets and things like that. Yeah. Did you have any early mentors as you were making that transition? Just curious. Did anybody kind of support you early on um there? So it's early on I was self-taught. I used a lot of books and videos and um I was on eBay all the time looking for the old timey taxidermy books because in those and that like old timey like Victorian era, that's when they would do a lot of the small birds and mice and the the things that I'm so that I'm most passionate about and interested in. When I would go to the competitions, that was when, in addition to showing my work, that was also an opportunity for me to try and meet mentors and try and meet people. A lot of the field is very, very homogenous. So it was kind of, you know, it feels kind of weird. It's a lot like in the birding world. Sometimes you go to these rooms and you're like, oh, I'm the only like person of color here. I'm the only queer person here. I'm the only woman here. I'm the only like... everything, like what's going on. So it was a little like, you know, you you're a little wary at first. And some of the associations were definitely a lot more welcoming than others. So, you know, New England, New Jersey and New York were much more, much more welcoming. So i kind of stuck there. um So as far as like, I never had like full time, like I didn't have like a one single like full time mentor. It was more of like learning from a network of people who are like you know what, like this is different or this is kind of like, this is not my thing when I'm into it and seeing that.
Science, Conservation, and Art: Emotional Connections
00:18:48
Speaker
And then George, George Dante, whose studio i work part time at has been like a really great, a really, really wonderful mentor and a mentor, a boss, a friend, employer, like all of that. He's been really, and would say like probably the most constant mentor that I've had. and But that came like years later, not so much in the beginning. In the beginning, it was sort of
00:19:07
Speaker
flying solo and seeing seeing what's what and and honestly just navigating a space that is historically and currently kind of unwelcoming to people who are different. Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
Wow. These are the stories we love to tell so much on this podcast. So I'm like, I'm ready to like jump out this seat and run around the house and come back and talk to y'all in like two minutes. Yeah, totally. got the Zoomies, Dex? You got the virtual Zoomies? got the Zoomies, yeah. I got the bird joy zoomies right now. I'm like fired up. Like just like, this is so good. So thank you. Yeah. And it's just incredible because there's so many folks that come on here that have taken different paths and lot of self-taught language, a lot of, I'm going to take the initiative myself and essentially build your own community.
00:19:56
Speaker
Right. found the places that welcomed you. You stayed away from the ones that didn't. You you found kindred souls and minds. and and And now, you know, you're probably out there able to, you know, with the teaching, too, is so interesting because I always found myself when I tutored in college, I would tutor like for um biochem class sometimes or like something else, you know, to the to the younger folks.
00:20:18
Speaker
And it's not like I understood it that well, but when I taught it to somebody else, it was so much, I just, I really knew it, you know? So it's just so interesting to hear you say those, those paths of like building a community yourself, learning yourself and then teaching others. So it's such a nice comprehensive way. We're getting to the parts of the questions now that i really want to get to because your work occupies this space in my brain, right? Connecting science, conservation, art How do you balance? You know, because you look at some of your pieces and when I look at them as a scientist or a birder, like I don't see a pure scientific piece. I really don't. And there's like me, I just never grew up in art or anything. So like when things like move me like that, I'm like, man, i know it's a flamingo, but why do I feel like You feel like it. You know? So like, how do you how do you balance that? Like getting something scientifically accurate and the symbolism and then like what emotional story do you hope people are like, like how do you how do you do that? Because like that that's the part to me that I'm so excited to talk to you about. Yeah.
00:21:23
Speaker
Oh, well, thank you. I mean, at first, it really means a lot to me that you'd share that and um and that you'd feel that way. So thank you for that. that that's That's amazing. Thank you. i mean, I think that's the beauty of art coming together with science, because i think both art and science are actually a lot more similar than either community wants to admit. I think the artists are like, no, we're pure art. The scientists are like, no, we're pure science. And then there's people like me who are like, both of you are wrong. Both of you are actually the same. You are wrong. um Yeah, both of you are wrong, but also right. But, you know, whatever.
00:21:55
Speaker
Because both of them, like art and science are both just ways of making sense of the world. Right. And then both of them, like the first step is observation um and then. what you how you process that observation and what you do with those observations is what I think maybe where some of the similarities come from and the differences come from too. And the thing that's specific to taxidermy, and I think that that is what also fascinates me, is that there's a preciseness to it. There's a preciseness of like, all right, if I am you know making a
00:22:25
Speaker
If I'm like mounting an owl or mounting a crow or mounting a, you know, whatever, flamingo or anything like that, it's like, all right, what size is this eye? What's the color of the eye? What's the, ah was this a bird that was in winter plumage and summer plumage, spring? Like what is the, also what does the client want? Are they wanting something sitting on a branch? Do they want me to go nuts with it and do something kind of jazzy? what Do they want, what do they want? And then there's like something in between all of that where you have your um kind of like your artist's hand that has to come through. And a lot of it for me is I want the animal to feel approachable or relatable or like draw to draw someone in while not looking like a total caricature, you know? So kind of towing that line and being a little kind of going to that place of surrealism because so much of taxidermy is also improvising. Most of the animals I work with have some kind of damage or some kind of imperfection on them because they're all found deceased. There's nothing, you know, it's very rare that something is found deceased and in like perfect plumage or doesn't have like some part that's damaged or missing or rotted off or, you know, something like that's not um less than ideal. So there's there's also navigating that. And so with that, you kind of have to know how to hide. It's like, okay, well, I'm going to um turn you this way so I can hide that part that is that has no feathers on it, or I can fluff this up some more because that will make you, that will distract the eye from
00:23:56
Speaker
what's what's going on there and kind of move that around. So I feel like in studying animals and seeing how, um you know, how fluid they are and how much they move and they're always shifting, especially birds. Like you can look at a bird one moment and it's like the sleekest, tiniest thing ever. And then the next moment it's like borb, you know, so being how plastic and fluid, you know, they're so fluid. So like, you know, sometimes it's, Yeah, yeah. And it's like within the span of like five minutes, you know, this thing will transform and change. And all of that is possible through taxidermy too. So it's also finding, you know, it's also knowing the animal can do that, finding that and seeing how, um yeah, I guess seeing how like plastic or how, how, how you can find
00:24:40
Speaker
Maybe manipulate's not the best word because that sounds so harsh, but how you can like work with them and see what they'll, you know, see what they'll become. That helps too. And then wanting someone to have it feel warm, you know, wanting someone to feel connected to it. I think in taxidermy, there's this traditional of tax, the tradition of taxidermy is tied a lot to like extraction and colonialism and and the domination over nature. Whereas this is more about like, I think myself and other artists who are working in the field now, um we're much more connected to the animal as as our equals you know as our as our kin as our friends as as beings that we want to connect to and honor and admire and and help others connect to and honor and admire and so you can't do that if something doesn't look approachable and soft and natural and you know nice it's not meant to look domineering or something you know I don't know like I think that it's like an aesthetic choice but there's also i think aesthetics also come from the intention that you're working with as well
00:25:40
Speaker
It sounds like, and i and ah you tell me if I'm right or wrong here, but um it sounds like you're constantly aware of the scientific accuracy, but it varies when you start to shift into that more presentation
Creative Process: From Science to Art
00:25:51
Speaker
mode. Like it sounds like sometimes you may know at the beginning exactly what you want to do, but sometimes it may take towards the end where you're like, oh, that's what I want to present. Is that is that true? is that Is that how you would describe it? Yes. Okay.
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, because it was a ah question that we had just when you made that switch of like, all right, this first module, I'm just going to get it in the right shape, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, put the skin here, put the you the eyeballs blue, make sure the eyeballs blue. But then if anyone were to go to your website, GothamTaxidermy.com, they would see it's way more than that. So it's just interesting to hear you to hear you talk through that. Yeah, thank you. That's also the fun part when I'm teaching too, because everyone, you know, in a class, everyone works with the same animals, but they all look very different. And and it's, it's just so cool to see, you know, so cool to see the versatility of, of the craft and of the, of the animals themselves too. I got to get to one of these classes. Yeah. Beautiful. um Beautiful. You mentioned earlier, like when you first started, you wanted to go back to like some of those older books, like the Victorian area ah era.
00:26:54
Speaker
And specifically because it had the small birds and mice that kind of really kind of spark your interest. This is the Bird Joy podcast and birds are one of your specialties. What drew you to birds creative creatively and emotionally? Oh my goodness. So birds are the best. Obviously, that's why we're all drawn to them. So there's that. sex objectively just Objectively, they are just the best. like this is all this We know this here. What drew me to them, so I grew up in Miami and I moved to New York City for college. So I've always been
00:27:26
Speaker
a big city person. And birds are something that exists in both of these cities, but they exist in every city and they, birds are everywhere. And i think that is what drew me to them is that no matter how, you know, how concrete, how, how much concrete and steel and, buildings and, you know, whatever I lived around, I could always find a bird. You could always see that. And they're so adaptable. That was, I think the first time in Miami, I was pretty young, but I know um i got more into birding in, in New York city. And so I think the first time I saw, i think it was a cedar. Yeah. It was a cedar waxing. I think that was the first like non-pigeon bird I saw in, and I saw it by wall street. And I was just like, Whoa, what is this?
00:28:11
Speaker
This is like, this is, you know, I love my pigeons. Don't get me wrong. I love my pigeons and my sparrows and my starlings. They're great. And I was like, who is this?
Birds and Urban Nature: Inspiration and Adaptability
00:28:18
Speaker
Like you are just hopping around in this random little park by wall street.
00:28:23
Speaker
What's going on? Like, wow. this I was like, this must be something important. you know I was like, so convinced that I was like, I'm sure I discovered something. I had the confidence of like, you know, of a Victorian white man. Like, just like, I'm sure I discovered something. Meanwhile, Call the Smithsonian immediately. yeah, call them immediately. like but I followed this bird around, you know, and this is what, like, I was, it was like, I was in college. I think i was on break or it was like one of those like weeks between classes. So I was just like, you know, walking around following this bird. People are like going to the office and stuff. And I was just like going around trying to see where this bird was going because I didn't have binoculars or anything. So i was like, I got to see this. Like, I'm i just following this, this being. And, you know, just hanging out in this, um,
00:29:08
Speaker
It was like a little pocket park, you know, it was between, you know, between all of the buildings. And then, you know, later on, when I got home, I was, you know, researching and was like, oh, we're in, we're in migration. So that's why this bird is here. And it actually is, a there actually are a lot of them here. You know, they actually do come through here. They're not rare. They're not the rare. Yeah.
00:29:26
Speaker
You know, because of that, you know, because they are so surprising, you know, they're surprisingly resilient, they're surprisingly present, and they're so surprisingly adaptable. And they kind of carry, I think, emotionally and personally, too, they fly and they kind of carry that magic of flight with them. I think that's what that's really what drew me to them is that they're that no matter where you go, you always have birds. And they're very fashionable. Yeah. Oh, my God. They're so beautiful. Yeah. They're just born ready. Listen, that's how I describe wax. They got shades and like a fresh haircut. And feathers. And feathers. These feathers. They got wax on them. Yeah. They pull up differently to the part. They are. Yeah. If there was a bird that was going to be fresh out of the barbershop wearing them lemon pepper steppers, it was going to be the cedar wax one. Absolutely. Absolutely. I tell people that all the time. Be like, this will be the most handsome bird you see on our bird walk today. So take it in. Yeah, they're incredible. I mean, you could say that with so many words. So, I mean, they're just incredible. One day I'm going to get to that for a Halloween costume. Yeah. Divya, you often talk about surrendering to the enchantment of nature. What does that mean to you? You talked a little bit about being in the city and being from Miami. So, how has that expressed itself in your life? Oh, that's such a great question. Thank you. think surrendering to that enchantment, there's two, I think there's two ways of doing it. There's this like highly aesthetic, super like dreamy way of like, I'm going to go to a cabin in the woods, sit by the river, drink tea and write in my journal. And that's like, yeah, you can do that sometimes. But I think a lot of people kind of aspire to that. Real life looks like I'm stressed. It's gross outside.
00:31:20
Speaker
The subway smells bad, you know, like my shoes are dirty. I stepped in something. I'm like, it's crowded. I'm hungry. There's all of these things. So I think surrendering to that enchantment is kind of just like taking a breath, like taking a break of even a minute and like looking for something around you that is there that you're not noticing.
00:31:38
Speaker
And will say like one of the one of the favorite experiences I've had recently was um with a pigeon. Pigeons also, I love them for that reason, because like if I need a bird fix, I will just look. Listen, I will find a pigeon. we They'll be there and I'll be like, all right, let me follow you. Let me see what you're doing. And that will do that. But it could even be, you know, a weed in the a weed in the sidewalk, of a dandelion or even like, you know, anything, anything small, a tree pit. What's unexpected in this tree pit? You know, we have this tree here. It could even be the dead tree in the tree pit. You know, what is it? What's that dead tree have going on on it that you might not have noticed before? It's just like finding something that a person didn't put there and then noticing that.
00:32:18
Speaker
That experience with the pigeon was really, really, really beautiful because there's this event that I do. So I do the classes out of my studio, but I also collaborate with an artist, um Sam Sam Graves. They're artist, naturalist, birder. They'd be an awesome guest on the pod if you think of it. Yep, right. On the list. Yeah. but Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. We do this event where we they do a taxidermy demonstration and then afterwards they do a sort of nature drawing workshop with study skins and specimens. So everyone has like they get to see how the taxidermy is done and then they get to draw from it and really connect to it and like kind of notice animals in a way they haven't before. So we had a pigeon study skin there. And there was there was this woman who was like, that's not a pigeon. And we were like, yeah, this is totally a pigeon. And this is a pigeon from New York City that was made into the study skin because the educational collection is based here and it's all local local animals.
Appreciating Nature's Magic in the City
00:33:09
Speaker
And she was like, no way. They're just so beautiful. This one's just so beautiful. And I'm like, they're really beautiful. They really are. It's like go Look at them for longer. Because with the study skin, you could see all of that blue, green, that green and purple iridescent, how it sits with the gray and all of that. And she was just like, there's no way. There's no way. We're like, this is totally a pigeon. This is totally a pigeon. And it was you know our little ah beautiful sidewalk friends. you know they're They're here. um So next time, go and look at them for longer. And what you were saying about kids earlier too is like that is one of my favorite things is to show them and see how they react to taxidermy because you know because taxidermy involves death. A lot of people are very, very averse to it. And I get it. Death is not a happy topic and it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a topic that grounds us and centers us and
00:34:00
Speaker
has us grapple with mortality. so But I think kids are actually way better at that than grownups are because they're not jaded and they haven't had like the messed up biases and judgments and social norms that kind of get us all twisted up as adults. you know Kids are just pure. They're like, huh, is that dead? I'm like, yeah, it is. And they're like, huh, did you kill it? No. Oh, okay. How did it die? Well, You know, they're they're just so frank and honest. yeah that curiosity yeah that curiosity is there. That curiosity without judgment is there. But they're also so good at noticing things, too. So with that woman with the pigeon, the kid was like, you're looking at the green part. Look at that purple part back there. Look at the back of the head, that part over there. And they're like, look at the wing. This has this, this has that. So I think kids are actually probably the best at surrendering to that enchantment until it's like, you know, like socialized away in some ways. But yeah yeah, that's really that's really what it is. And I think so much in the city is like there's so much that we write off as ordinary, but there's so much immense beauty and in the ordinary, too.
00:35:06
Speaker
powerful just this idea of grounding in the little things and paying attention like my grandpa would tell me just pay attention it' amazing what we see and we take it we take for granted the pigeons or the morning dove and then yeah you spend some time with that morning dove and that oh you start seeing some different things you're like oh wow Yeah, absolutely stunning. You're spending some time with the pigeons, the rock pigeons, whatever pigeon you might be looking at. And you're like, holy cow. You look like a painting. You're so beautiful. And that light hits perfectly. And you're just like, yeah, they pull up. They got purple like my shirt. Yeah. It's incredible. I love it. love that tip. I think that's a great tip of if you're feeling overwhelmed, if you're hangry, Jason gets hangry a lot, where you can just ground in this small moment of enchantment that's around you. I love that so much. It's just so much more applicable to real life, especially these days in this country, to be able to say, I need to pause for a minute, to just notice this pigeon or this sparrow or this starling and like,
00:36:18
Speaker
that's That's kind of really, I think, how a lot of your work makes people feel enchanted, right? I think it's the right word. And is that, would you say that that's how you hope people feel? Or is there other things that you want people to feel if they encounter your work for the first time? because I think I already told you how it hit me. Like, how would you want people to feel? Thank Thank you. Yeah, I think that's, that's how I'd want people to feel. I'd want them to feel even if they don't feel enchanted yet, because that is that takes a lot of vulnerability. And that takes a lot of, um you know, that's, it's like a very personal feeling, which i would love if that happens. I think I just want them to feel changed in some way. um
00:36:53
Speaker
Just some kind of some kind of change, because that's the first step. Wow. It makes a change. You know, it's funny. I always tell people you get people to pay attention. You can get them to care. You get them to care. You can get them to do. And that change is is what we're going for. If we can. Next thing you know, I bet you that lady that you mentioned, she is looking at pigeons completely different now for the rest of her life. She's side eyeing pigeons. She has changed. You changed her forever um alongside those little kids. I think that is absolutely fantastic. um You mentioned working with George at George Dante's studio and you're preserving museum collections. How does working with legacy collections shape your sense of responsibility and time, time history,
Taxidermy and Conservation: Urgency and Understanding
00:37:38
Speaker
memories? How how how does that work shape you? It is really, um i mean, it's really haunting. I think one of the first things I worked on, um or one of the, let's say, one of the first things, this is like one of the first memories of a piece I worked on at Georgia's studio was restoring a passenger pigeon. And, you know, this is an extinct, and This is an extinct bird. And it has a very, it was a story that a lot of people know, but also a story maybe a lot of people don't know. A lot of birders know the story. um But it's really a haunting reminder, right? Of, you know, there's the only way we can see this bird. There's no flight I can get on. There's no zoo or aviary or place I could go to see this bird. The only way I can see this bird is through this bird. preserved specimen. And while being someone who preserves animals, well, that's why we do this so so that people can see animals in a way that doesn't you know cause harm or impact or bother natural habitats, going and digging around in places that we just need to like you know let them let him have their space. This was a different example of that. This is something that is an example like this is like ah an example of something that could have been avoided. And this is just sort of this like haunted artifact that this is
00:38:46
Speaker
this is it. Like your kin doesn't exist living anymore. They're all like this. um And I think working with, um you know, working with extinct beings and, and working with beings that are like on that verge of being endangered or threatened or vulnerable or or anything,
00:39:04
Speaker
when you think about the fact that there are some animals where more of them exist in a collection or in a lab or in ah in a very nice climate controlled facility somewhere versus in the wild, it really just like ignites your, you know, ignites your sense of stewardship, but it also, it it ignites a sense of urgency, but it also ignites kind of like a sense of helplessness too, because you're kind of like, It's heavy. Yeah, very heavy. Yeah. Wow.
00:39:32
Speaker
Yeah, it takes you through those through those two things. And it it makes everything very real. You know, that word extinction or endangered. It's not some graphic of an elephant somewhere overlaid with some music. Like it's a lot of times it's this really hard concept for people to grasp because they don't we don't see it in our everyday lives. But, you know, I'm...
00:39:52
Speaker
fortunate to have a career where I do see it, but I want people to be able to interact with these specimens and kind of get close to them and experience them in a way so that those words have a true meaning to them as opposed to that. Those words have like a personal meaning or a personal connection to them as opposed to just like a concept from, you know,
00:40:11
Speaker
Like this abstract concept that's like a 30 second commercial. I mean, at one point, that bird was the most populated bird in the world. Yeah. And we started thinking about we started thinking about the pigeon, the wreck the pigeons that you see now in the city. We're not promised to have those birds forever.
00:40:29
Speaker
Yeah. And I think a lot of times we take them for granted. That's how we lost the passenger pigeon. Oh, there's so many of them. Right. Oh, we don't have to worry about that. wipe them out. So I think, you know, having that that mind frame of appreciating all of them, all the birds that we see and realizing, They were here before us. like We need to figure out a way that we can can can ensure you know that they have some longevity, that they're here for the next generation of people to to really observe them and enjoy their colors and those simple things and some of those moments that we need the most. so I love that correlation of you being able to work on something like that. It is very real, but also it's a reminder that this can happen to every single bird species that we have the honor of seeing. um So that is that it it really kind of puts into it puts into focus like our duty and our responsibilities as just people, you know, in our relationship to these beings around us. Totally.
00:41:26
Speaker
So taxidermy, it's, it's, uh, you said at the beginning, it's, it's gotta, you know, the entry point for it for a lot of people in their minds is death. And i ah we have, um, our in color birding here in Philly, you know, we've had, uh, events at the Academy of Natural Sciences where they are. So they have people demonstrating how they prepare the specimens and get the skins and fix the birds. And, you know, that's more academic. And then we have events where we,
00:41:49
Speaker
oh are going and collecting window strikes. Bird Philly, shout out to them here. They're capturing that data, right? and And in both situations, I have people that love birds, but they really struggle with the idea of death.
00:42:03
Speaker
And they are curious, but they emotionally don't know if they could handle it. And I feel like taxidermy is in that same bucket where it gets misunderstood or even stigmatized in some cases. How have you found that space to like demystify it, make it safer, more inclusive for people who are curious, but maybe a little bit hesitant? Oh, that's a really good question. um and Probably one I could talk about for like three hours. Oh, gosh. um Well, yeah, I mean, death is it's this incredibly personal. You know, it's an incredibly personal thing. Like everyone experiences grief differently. There's also um there's also the culture that we're coming at it from. i think a lot of what's really unfortunate about a lot of Western culture is that it has separated a lot of us from death.
00:42:50
Speaker
our ancestral traditions around death for the sake of assimilation. And that's something that like I i grapple with a lot. um And it's something that like a lot of people in my own, you know, in my own like community of taxidermy friends, it's something that we're always we're always kind of thinking about and talking about of like, oh, wow, you know, like I had no idea that my great-grand whatever great grandparent, great grand aunt, whatever was, you know, would actually collect feathers and make something out of this. But we just don't know it because like a lot of us don't might not have a connection to our our past. So I think that the topic of death, like combined with all of those other factors, it becomes even more uncomfortable um for some people. But even in the conservation world, even with like the most like clinical scientific folks that I've worked with,
00:43:39
Speaker
seeing like there's this taboo of emotions mixing with science and it's like it should not it's like they should not mix but they have to how do you care you know how can you like honor your humanity and the like and the birdhood of the bird you know or like the that this bird was not just a random a random the thing that was in the world it was an individual with its own life and its own family and stories and experiences that it had. So I think it's really personal how people can how people want to relate to death and how uncomfortable it also makes them our mortality is this fact. It's like it's also in addition to the cultural stuff like death is a part of the natural life cycle. You know, it happens to everything.
00:44:22
Speaker
And I'm not one of those people like, well, it happens everything. Let's just get over it and stuff there. i like, I want to dwell on it. i was a goth kid, so still am at heart. So the whole thing goth is like, you dwell on this stuff, you dwell on it, but not in a way of doom and gloom. You dwell on it in this way of appreciating how short life is. Um,
00:44:43
Speaker
I think another thing that's removed from a lot of people is rituals around death. Although I work in a studio, I do have my little rituals of approaching my animals every day. I'm like, all right, if I'm working on something new, I'm going to try and like pluck a flower, pluck a plant, like break off a piece of a fern that's, you know, there and stick stick something living on my workbench to go and work with the dead. But even that, you know, even like ritual around death, like most people don't aren't connected to their own rituals around death. They're not connected to their own traditions around it. So I think kind of like encouraging that and encouraging someone to
00:45:18
Speaker
find what it means to them is so much more meaningful than me saying like, well, this is how I process it. You know, like this is what I think and this is what you should think. It's yeah, it's it's I guess it's so yeah, it's so personal, but it's ah it's such a truth. You know, death death is this like immense truth that was like we can't yeah deny it.
Teaching and Learning in Taxidermy: Slow and Deliberate
00:45:37
Speaker
Denying it just makes it um denying it doesn't deny anything doesn't make it go away. You know, it's not like a text. you If you don't just respond to death text, it doesn't mean you don't die. It's not like yeah You can't leave death on read. You know, it's like, you cannot it's coming. It's one of those, but it's also something that I think should cause us like the finality of it. um and The gravity of it, I think should help us appreciate life more. Wow.
00:46:05
Speaker
and help us like bar yeah bars and more bars. thank you so good and I can imagine being in one of your classes, right? And being someone that maybe even in the class is still hesitant and still trying to figure out how to navigate that. So like, how are you learning or what are you learning from teaching beginners like that, like maybe influences the way you continue to approach it Because I imagine that kind of viewpoint as you're able to tell people in the moment as they're grabbing the scalpel or whatever they're grabbing and like help them through that.
00:46:39
Speaker
How does that impact you over time? Thank you. i mean, i think the impact is, i mean, the best part about teaching is learning. You know, a lot of like, I love when people come to classes because I'm like, cool, I get to learn. And, you know, i love students. They're always there for a good time. And they're always like, hey, and we're getting to learn from you. And I'm like, at the end, I'm like, ha I actually learned from you. it was that all Little did you know. Little did you know my scheme of of learning from you. But it's this beautiful exchange, right? Like, as I'm giving them the skills and the technical knowledge, but then they're giving me like sort of how they feel and what they're what they're coming to this with. And everyone comes to this with something so different.
00:47:17
Speaker
So i think slowness is the one offering that I give everyone. When I was learning taxidermy from um like in the very beginning, from a lot of the like some of the early competitions I went they were all like, oh, if you're not picking this up, it's not this. If you're not doing this, it's not that. And I'm like,
00:47:35
Speaker
I kind of just am noticing that this is a dead animal in my hands and it's a skin and there's this and I kind of just want to sit and process it. I'm also neurodivergent and I process things really slowly. The world often moves faster than i can process it. um So taxidermy is like very helpful for that where I'm like, OK, I can sit here.
00:47:56
Speaker
I can take all the time I need. So I think transferring that and making an environment like that for students where it's like, listen, you don't need to do this fast. I don't get joy if you do this fast. I want you to learn. And you only learn with time and slowness. And you can only process things with slowness. Yeah. i mean, it's the same with birding, right? Like there's the birders who are like, boom, boom, boom, boom ID, ID, ID. And it's like, and there's the birders who are like, We're like, actually, I'm just staring at this moss and this bug. And you're like, oh, wow. Okay. So yeah where is that? Yeah, I guess it's like that that's slowing down and taking the time to notice and, you know, name what you feel, feel what you feel and see what happens.
Rapid Fire: Personal Insights and Conservation
00:48:34
Speaker
That's a great way. That's great burning advice, too. Right. There's slow down a little bit. Slow down. Pay attention to what's around you. Listen, be present in the moment. Appreciate those moments of enchantment along the way.
00:48:48
Speaker
always tell people i I am stunned at how fast this hour went. Like, can we do a special like. two hour episode jason like this is crazy you might have do one of those things where we get a patreon and do like bonus episodes because we run out of time with yeah this is this is crazy but before we let you go you know we have to do our lightning round with oh my god we're gonna throw out a question at quick short answers and we'll see if you survive Oh my gosh.
00:49:19
Speaker
All right. You ready? Yeah. Favorite animal to work with? Oh my gosh. Birds. All right. Most emotionally challenging piece you've ever created. Oh, my gosh. There could be a bunch, but I'm going to mention one that was fairly, fairly recent-ish. It was last year. So I work with the New York City Plover Project. I'm on the board there and I'm a longtime volunteer as well. And last year I had the opportunity to work with a piping plover, parent and a chick. And Not only was this a species that I'm just so passionate about on our beaches, also the beach that they're from um is part of this, is part of the Gateway National Recreation Area, which is yeah basically like that part of the National Park System, which a lot of people don't know we have National Park System in New York City. We have that here. So that's how was connected to this bird because the queer beach is also part of the system. So I was like on the queer beach and was like,
00:50:18
Speaker
Okay, oh my gosh, this this endangered bird nests here too. My goodness, like this is a place for gathering of all kinds of like vulnerable and special beings, human and non-human. But anyhow, this bird, not only was it the species that I'm so connected to, it was also from this gateway system. So this was like a gateway bird. it was like was like, it's one of ours. yeah This bird was also frozen since 2001. So, and I worked this bird in 2025. So, it's in the freezer. Or these birds both were in the freezer for about 24, 25 years, which made them very technically challenging too. can feel it. I can feel that because I got my life for piping clover in 2025 and it took me all the way out. I was just like, I can't believe this little thing. Like, look how cute you are. I can't imagine seeing a baby to seeing a chick. Most meaningful commission you have received. Oh, man, feel like, oh, my gosh, I'll say like, I'll give you a general answer for that one. I think when lightning round gets me, it got me. I'll say like, I'll just give a general answer for that one. I'll say when people come to me with pets, it's very meaningful. Sure. Conservation work is really, really meaningful, too. I think when someone comes to me with their companion, there's just a different level of grief and vulnerability and an exchange that's involved. where you're preserving relationship and a memory as opposed to preserving something purely for academic reason. Sure, sure, sure. All right.
00:51:51
Speaker
Next one. One object in nature that always inspires you. Ooh. You can't say birds. You already used all it. No, I can't say birds. Okay. I'm going to say moss and, is it epiphytes, like things that grow on trees? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll say mosses, lichens, epiphytes, those.
00:52:08
Speaker
Awesome. A museum you love visiting. Oh, my gosh, there so many. I'll say I'm going to say, oh I'm going to say the Field Museum because I went there for the first time last year and they did an exhibit that was really, really amazing in the early twenty twenty s Did an exhibit on Carl Cotton, who is one of the few Black taxidermists remembered by history. And he has, he has a whole diorama. in there. He he worked on a lot of stuff in there, but he has a whole diorama in there that has and has a beautiful plaque memorializing his work and legacy and all of that. I'll say that. That's incredible. Your go-to source of creative inspiration. Oh, go-to source of creative inspiration. I'm going to say walking around the cemetery near my studio, Greenwood Cemetery. It's a great birding cemetery too, but there's always something there that I don't notice. Love it. All right. We talked a little bit about this, but one misconception about taxidermy you wish would disappear. Oh, that would be so many. I would say the I'd say the crudeness and the brutishness that that people conceive it as crude or brutish or um domineering that that this that misconception. I wish it disappeared.
00:53:19
Speaker
All right. Last one. You almost made it. What brings you the most joy in your work? Oh, it brings me the most joy in my work is the connection, the connections that I make to the animals, the connections that people make afterwards and the ones we all make with each other.
00:53:35
Speaker
so fantastic. Love this so much. You survived. You survived. Yay! The lightning round. Divya, this has been this has been so beautiful, so engaging, so joyful, so thoughtful, emotional, like everything. Like I just like always the emotions in this episode just was just just ah um I still got the zoomies. Like, I don't know what to to do with myself right now. um You got a lot going on. Are there any projects or ideas that you're excited to explore next? um If somebody's listening and they're feeling drawn to science, art and conservation, but don't know where to start, what would you tell them? I would say, well, I mean, I'm excited about like we're starting the year. So I have a lot of like teaching events coming up, which I'm very excited about. I'm also making time to do artwork, like not just
00:54:28
Speaker
commissions and stuff. I'm making intentional time to do artwork. So that's what I'm excited about. And for someone interested in conservation and they don't know where to start, I would say just start small, start somewhere, go outside and notice something because we need everybody.
00:54:42
Speaker
We need everyone. You don't need to be an expert. You don't need to, yeah, you don't need to have a fancy degree, fancy equipment. You don't need to be an expert. You just need to love and find some, notice something, tell someone about it. That's I like that. Fantastic. I like that. Wow.
Conclusion and Call to Find Bird Joy
00:54:58
Speaker
Divya, thank you so much for sharing your time, your perspective and your generosity with us. Your ability to blend. Yeah. Your ability to blend science, style and wonder is deeply inspiring. And we are grateful for the space you create for curiosity, learning and connection. This has been a fantastic episode. We can't wait to get it out to folks. And so thank you again and to all of our homies out there. You know, keep finding that bird joy. Remember that bird joy is for everyone. Even you.
00:55:26
Speaker
Bye. Thank you.