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Snakes, Science, and Belonging: Field Biology, Culture, and Curiosity with Liz Lopez
0 Playsin 11 hours
In this episode of the Bird Joy Podcast, we’re joined by Liz Lopez, also known as @browngirlbiologist, for a wide-ranging conversation about field biology, curiosity, and belonging in science and outdoor spaces. Liz shares her journey into biology, how identity and mentorship shaped her path, and what it really means to work as a biological monitor protecting threatened species across California.
We dive into her love of snakes and how education can transform fear into understanding, explore the realities of monitoring, compliance, and conservation work, and discuss how moving between ecosystems, from land to sea, sharpens observation and adaptability. Liz also reflects on the importance of communication, teamwork, and empathy in field science, and her connection to Latino Outdoors as a source of community and representation.
The episode wraps with a fun Bird Joy Lightning Round that highlights Liz’s curiosity, humor, and deep respect for the natural world.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to season four of the Bird Joy podcast. Your hosts Dexter Patterson and Jason Hall are back with more birds, more bird joy, and plenty of laughs along the way.
00:00:11
Speaker
Each episode brings new stories, fun conversations, and a whole flock of good vibes. We're happy you're here. We really miss the homies and we hope you enjoy this season.
00:00:23
Speaker
You ready? Let's Go. Welcome. Welcome back to the Bird Joy podcast. We have a fire guest for you all today. Today's guest helps people rethink what it means to be a biologist and who belongs in nature spaces. We're joined by Liz Lopez, also known as at Brown Girl Biologist.
00:00:43
Speaker
Liz is a versatile biologist, snake enthusiast, educator, and community builder whose work spans species protection, habitat monitoring, and science outreach. She is a proud member of Latino Outdoors and a powerful advocate for inclusive science and outdoor spaces.
Liz Lopez's Career and Influences
00:01:01
Speaker
Liz has worked across California, werent were my home to state, From Arcata to San Diego, protecting threatened and endangered species, supporting complex permitting and compliance work, and helping people connect with wildlife in thoughtful and responsible ways.
00:01:19
Speaker
Whether she's in the field monitoring sensitive species or engaging communities through education, Liz brings care, clarity, and joy to everything she does. Liz, welcome to the Bird Joy Podcast.
00:01:32
Speaker
Let's go. Hi, thank you guys so much for having me on here. I was thrilled be reached out to and I am, although I do mostly herps, I do love birds too and I feel like that thing where they say the older you get, the more you love birds. That's definitely true for me. It's true.
00:01:49
Speaker
What's that meme? Oh, is that a yellow rump barbler?
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah. You wake up and you're just looking at butter butts. So yeah like comes fast ah you have no idea that every morning I'm like at my window and my partner, I'm like, I'm like, get over here. There's something new out there.
00:02:11
Speaker
You know, you gotta spread the patron love how you can. It gets quick, man. I feel like all the generations after millennials, we have a gift. We have the awareness now of this and we can go get it well before we retire. you know So that's that's really awesome. So take us back to the beginning. you know How did your interest in animals and science kind of first take shape? Everybody's got their origin story. So let's hear yours.
00:02:31
Speaker
i I've thought about this a lot because my family does not like going outdoors, really. like we We tried to go camping and stuff when I was little. And we like one time we tried to do RV trip, which I was like, okay, we can do this. you know It's not tense. And we ended up going and parking the RV in my grandma's driveway instead. And my parents were just like not 100% into it, you know? But so but what it was, um actually, i think that my interest in science and biology originated... Well, my dad was um a big factor in that. He's an engineer. he's a He's born here, but my his his parents are from Mexico. So he just kind of got into something that was...
00:03:13
Speaker
going put food on the table, but I think he would have been a biologist. So when I was growing up, he would always be taking me out to ponds. I don't think that this is technically illegal, but we'd catch tadpoles and bring them home and like rear them in the garage. Yeah. So now I know I'm not supposed to do that, but it's all good. And he also had ah a background doing like some landscaping stuff at the time. So he knew the names of all the ornamental plants in the neighborhood. So he would take me on like nature walks and he would go around and he would be like,
00:03:42
Speaker
um You know, this is an azalea. This is a crepe myrtle. So I started learning all these names of ornamental plants from him. And I think just the fact that everything theoretically had a name and had been seen multiple times like that just clicked something in me. And I wanted to know the names of everything. So that's where it sort of started.
00:04:03
Speaker
You're one those kids that asks 8 million questions. What's that? Oh, yeah, I'm going to tell you. Oh, that's cute. He said that when I was little, I'd be like, what's that? What's that? And he's like, was so annoying, but like, you know. Hey, look at you now. I know, look at you now. Still asking, what's that? What's that? Paying attention.
Diversity in Science
00:04:23
Speaker
As a Latina entering biology and environmental work, what did it feel like kind of navigating that space early in your career?
00:04:32
Speaker
it It was tough. I have kind of ah an interesting background. So I don't know, are either of you ah consider yourselves Latino? No, not me. Okay. I like to say that Latinidad is, ah it's not like a linear thing. It's kind of like a constellation. And um so I grew up considering, or I grew up considering myself Hispanic or Latino. I now consider myself a Chicana, which is... um It's a little bit of a separate identity, mostly for people of Mexican descent born and born here in the United States. But I grew up in a very white community north of Sacramento. i already felt very othered my whole you know life up to going to college and starting this career in biology. So I think that actually kind of helped me be able to enter this field. I was already used to that feeling of being an outsider. And then in biology, I was still very much an outsider. And it felt normal to me literally until I left. I finished my grad program is when I was like, oh my gosh, like there are.
00:05:35
Speaker
more Latinos that are or Chicanos or whatever. There's like a broad broad spectrum of people on the Latinidad constellation and other people of color that that are like me, you know? Having my identity in the sciences, it's a hard space, I think, for for people of color to be in Having been someone that was already used to being othered growing up, like as as messed up as that is, it sort of helped me because I already...
00:06:04
Speaker
was able to sort of find the um strength within myself to stand on my own. Yeah. But beyond that, like there, you know, that's, I feel like it's a good thing, but it's kind of the sad thing beyond that. I think that being a Chicana um in the sciences, it's, a um you know, what people say about like that, giving you a different perspective.
00:06:27
Speaker
really think Yeah, I really do think like coming from this background that I came from and knowing nature in different ways outside of the westernized way of like, oh, I grew up going camping or I grew up birding and stuff like that, just kind of helped me be more observant and also more open to like I'm aware that I don't know everything and a hundred percent open to learning it all. So I take a lot of pride um within my identity and within my fields.
00:06:55
Speaker
Sure. That makes sense. And I, you know, I, I was Dex and I've talked about this with other folks, but like you have this, this kind of journey of like feeling like you're the exception and you go out into that space and then being in that space and finding your place in that space actually helps you then understand your base, like your identity. Like it helped me connect with different parts of my blackness being out in birding, right? Which is, you know, not something I actually expected. So it's interesting to hear that. It's like, oh, my perspective belongs out here.
00:07:24
Speaker
now it Now that my perspective is out here in this space, it connects me better to who I am. Like that's that's really, really, really beautiful to hear. Oh yeah, definitely. And it seems like you two also um leading different BIPOC bird groups and stuff, being able to connect other people in that way and tell, like show them that they have a spot here. Sure. It's not reserved for like other people you understand too. That's just like a really beautiful thing. Yeah. You like, you like, you like mentioned some, um some other folks that you met kind of grad school, like who, did you have some early mentors or people that like really kind of hammered that in for you of like, yeah, you're supposed to be here, homie.
00:07:59
Speaker
Um, I had good mentors, but not really identity wise. So, go pat yeah. And yeah, I think I'm trying to think my mentors. You were the mentor. You were the, you were the representation. You became the representation.
00:08:15
Speaker
Yeah. So that, and you know, that's just my experience. Like I i know that people have, ah um, have had like, Oh, someone to look up to or someone that's sit close to them. That's like, a person of color that they're like, oh yeah, like if they did it, I could do it too. But I was just talking to my partner about this in the car. Like actually the reason I got on Instagram in the first place, cause I was off of it for a long time was cause I was like a lot of people that I've mentored in my past have told me um that seeing someone like me succeeding was really important to them. And I'm like, how do i increase my reach, you know, because there's only so much that I could do one on one.
00:08:52
Speaker
So but yeah, i I did there. She wasn't really a mentor to me. But there was one person of color during my undergrad that was ah a um microbiologist. And I always sort of looked at her from the sidelines. And I did tell her later, like, hey, I always sort of looked at you and said, like, okay, this is This is another person of color who is able to make it. So I think I probably can too. Love it. Love
Changing Perceptions of Snakes
00:09:16
Speaker
it so much. I will admit when I saw that you are our guest and, you know, I'm doing research and i was like, oh, snakes, you know.
00:09:27
Speaker
Snakes. I call them nope ropes. So i was like, OK, let me let me let me let me lean into this expertise a little bit, because snakes often trigger like fear responses in people. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you encounter? How do you help people move from fear to under understanding from like really appreciating these creatures?
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for asking that. And I love this topic about the no-pro fruit. What is the other thing? The danger in noodles. I hear that a lot. Yeah. danger noodle That's a new one for me. I like that, too. Yeah. There's so many, but I guess like as a herpetologist, I'm hearing them all the time. So, yeah, they're the best. I actually have like my soul snake right here next to me um in my office. But your question. Sorry, can you repeat the question again? What are what are some of the biggest misconceptions you encounter and and how do you help people move from fear to understanding? Okay. Yeah. So, um, I guess first, if you don't mind, I'll tell a little story kind of about how I got into this because i grew up.
00:10:38
Speaker
Okay. Sweet. Yay. I grew up in a household. Um, I don't want to, how do you say to like, stereotype, but I come from a Mexican-American household and there's a lot of fear around snakes um in my culture. And I think a lot of it is actually tied to colonialism, which is something that i like to examine a lot just generally in my work. There was a snake like, man, my mom and my grandma were out of there, forget about it. and so even though I grew up liking critters, i grew up not being really nervous around snakes. And when I started my job as a consultant, part of my job is to
00:11:14
Speaker
relocate snakes, just short distances, you know? but if, if one's like in the way of work or something non-venomous, um, and every time I would have to relocate a snake, I would get my gloves on and I'd go pick it up and I would physically start shaking and and my heart would start beating. It's like, you know, it's this thing you're supposed to be scared of, you know? Yeah. So I have a good friend that I've worked with for many years and I was telling him like, man, I need to get over this. Like, i don't want to be having this fear because it's part of my work. And also I like the snakes. I want them to stay out of the way of, um out of harm's way about how do I do that? And he was kind of joking. and that He was like, ah you should just get a snake and see how that goes. And i would never recommend this to anybody, but I did that. Yeah. Yeah, I got my snake. His name is Poe. He's a Mexican black kingsnake. And he's been a really huge teacher to me. you know, showing me the true nature of snakes, which isn't this aggressive animal that's going to chase you or that's out to get you. They're really like
00:12:18
Speaker
I like to say sort of like land babies, you know, they're very connected to the earth. They live their whole life on the earth. He's sweet. Like sometimes I'll sing in my office. I just, I just, I just Googled it. Sorry. We ended up doing that.
00:12:33
Speaker
That is a beautiful creature. My goodness. Right. It is Wow. And so that you mentioned that that was your soul, your soul snake. Is that, is that a very, is that a specific kind of designation?
00:12:47
Speaker
That's something that I just kind of make up to kind of say you know, he's someone that's, ah that's really taught me ah a lot and helped me get over fear of his kind. And he was born in captivity. Like that's not really his job, but I'm so grateful to you know, be able to be his caretaker and that he was teaching me how to, how to navigate other snakes of his species and other species, you know, but as far as common misconceptions, I think it's kind of what you would expect. Like, A lot of people think that, yeah, they're they're aggressive or they're defense they're always going to be defensive or they're always going to be chasing after you or there's some omen of evil. That's something that I get a lot, too. And I think that the way i try to combat this is like, A, letting people know, like, hey, like,
00:13:36
Speaker
Now, even though I'm seen as a snake person, this is like a very recent thing and that could be you too. And i I really think that it's more people. So I do it through education a lot. Like I showed people, you know, this is where they live. This is how you act around them. If a snake is getting defensive, give it its space. And it's our job to be able to ID them and be able to say like, okay, I'm in the snakes territory. These are native animals for the most part, you know, the ones that you've that you'll see out in nature. They belong here. They're here far before my people um were here, far before like most of our ancestors were. So they kind of have claim to this land. So it's our job to to watch out for them, make sure that we're not hurting them. But yeah, I think it's exposure yeah yeah helps. Yeah, we fear we fear what we don't understand. You mentioned that religious or like spiritual fear that people have of snakes. I've seen the same thing with owls.
00:14:32
Speaker
Where some people think that owls are bad omens and all, you know, so there are some connections to a lot of things that um maybe people don't understand or don't encounter that could lead to a feeling on so many different levels. So that's ah a nice bird and snake connection.
00:14:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I have no idea. I've been thinking out about owls all year long. I had an experience with a barn owl earlier this year that kind of I feel like every year I have an obsession with like maybe a little bit different of an animal. And, you know, being that there was a barn owl that was hurt on sight, it was probably young juvenile, probably a car strike on one of its first flights. out and I found it on site and stayed with it for a while and tried you know make myself as unimposing as possible but giving it shade while the rescue was coming and like man I was like I never they're pretty common at least in California never really had that connection with them but was like this is a really beautiful owl and now every time I see one I'm like brother one that I'm But yeah, it is. I do think a lot of it has to do with, at least with the snakes, with colonialism and the dichotomy of good and evil and the Catholic church, which I was raised Catholic. So I think about that a lot. But in Mexican tradition, the owls will sometimes be omen of death. And just 100% don't see like that.
00:16:03
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. It's like a lot of, a lot of cultures are around the world for a lot of different creatures, but I think that's part of the, part of the journey we're all going to be on here. Right. It's like really stripping some of those down and connecting people to the beauty. And I love how you flipped it of like, no, this is not something we should be afraid of. This is something we should take care of. Like, this is our responsibility. These, these, these snakes it's really, really beautiful way to think of it. And I think it's more powerful to combat than maybe the cultural stuff that we've had passed down in all of our families and so on in our, in our, in our community. So. Yeah, I think that, you know, culture is a beautiful thing and I love the stories and I love tradition. And theoretically, I love hearing about like, oh yeah, snakes did X, Y, Z. Like there's so many snake myths out there and owl myths too. ah the way i always think of it, if someone's like, oh, like you saw an owl, that's a bad omen. I'm like, man, I see so many owls. Yeah, I mean, you gotta have to. You know, and I see so many snakes. Like if that was true, i would be screwed right now, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah. Do you all encounter that in your work too? Like people. 1000%. And I was like, well, i shouldn't be here then. Right. yeah My life shouldn't be incredible. You know? Yeah. Cause I see a lot of owls on me. Like, you know, it's similar with like vultures. And I know in Africa it's, ah it's an issue, certain kinds of birds of prey. Right. Yeah.
00:17:26
Speaker
You know, and it's and it's the birds that are, you know, the creatures that are in spaces and doing things that maybe be we don't quite understand as humans. You know, we don't value the the part of that. And birds and snakes are connected inevitably, right, with a lot of different parts of the ecosystem, which is really cool. But in general, like, like i still, I've held snakes. I like snakes, right? Had a had a ball python growing up, right? It was my little brother's ball python there and um altade in Altadena, California. and And her name was Queen Latifah. She was great. Oh yeah, that's amazing.
00:17:57
Speaker
Right? ah But when people hear snake training, I think their brains go to these very extreme places of, well, I'll say some of the idiots you see on the internet doing idiotic stuff with venomous snakes. um yeah What does responsible snake education or snake training actually involve? you know I think first and foremost, ah animal welfare.
Snake Education and Biological Monitoring
00:18:22
Speaker
we're, we take really good care of our animals. And when I say we, it's a nonprofit that i work for on the side as a snake relocation instructor. They're called save the snakes. They're out of Rancho Cordova Cordova in California, which is near Sacramento. So just a small plug for them because they're doing really amazing work. And I, I wouldn't even mention them if they weren't, I think that something I've learned, especially from working with some people that I consider mentors at save the snakes is um putting the animal first and i think that when people see that too mirrored like like okay this is an animal that i should be taking care of so you know we're not the people that are out there with the the huge gigantic snake showing you like this is the biggest snake and like be sure snake yeah exposed to all the two people over and over and over again and you know because snakes get tired like people don't really realize that they're like any other animal they need food water shelter and they need rest too so if but um
00:19:20
Speaker
You know, my personal snakes, when I used to use them for education, would notice like when they're out in the heat, even though they're cold-blooded animals and they need heat, she'd get tired after a while. So at snakes, we really like try to rotate out the snakes, make sure that we're not using them if they're in shed, making sure that if we're going to do anything like tube them for educational purposes, they only get tubed like you know, very infrequently. So I think that, you know, from, from that perspective of the animal husbandry side, that's really important to do to honor the animals that we have the privilege of working with, but also to kind of like show people like, Hey, yeah, this is how we treat the animals. So like, please treat them with that same amount of respect.
00:20:02
Speaker
um And then as far as ah teaching people, i think that I think just like making sure that everyone knows that they have a choice. We're not here to like force snakes down your throat. If you're gonna decide that you don't like them, you're not gonna like them. you know and I'm gonna judge them though. I mean, I'm just gonna put it out there. I mean, you know but go ahead.
00:20:28
Speaker
artificially, judge them a little bit too. But then again, yeah, I have to take the mirror and put it on myself because I'm like, you know, you were like shaking in your boots like, you know, six years ago. It's one thing to be afraid, anxious, you know, just because you don't know, right? It's another thing to just outwardly dislike a creature for silly reasons, right? It's like you back Dexter and were talking about people that don't like pileated woodpeckers. It's like, you're a psychopath. I'm not going to out with you then, you know? I just saw one for the first time yesterday. Congratulations. Life for alert. Let's go.
00:21:02
Speaker
guess not I looked up because I was like, this must be super uncommon because I've been looking for one forever. and they're like, it's common to see. And I was like, well, not for me. Anyways. Also, why wouldn't you like them? But anyways, I know like Jason said psychopaths, you know, psychopaths.
00:21:22
Speaker
yeah but Back to the snakes really quick, just on that. I think that one thing, um this is just tangentially related, but one thing that I get a lot from sort of like, I don't know, your average kind of macho character um is like, oh, like,
00:21:39
Speaker
you like snakes. Well, when I see one on my property, I kill them right away. And I know I just like roll my eyes. There's not really any way of getting around, ah you know, how do I approach this in a way that will be heard? Cause in the end, I don't care what they think about me, but I want them to be able to see these snakes in a different light. And it's just kind of, but it it is always like, really? Like,
00:22:00
Speaker
yeah This little animal that it probably wasn't, i know for a fact it wasn't running towards you or trying to attack you. Maybe it was getting a little defensive or something, but your your first thing is to kill it and then be proud of it. Like, that's sort of lame, you know?
00:22:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's a lot of lane. um So, yeah yeah, I mean, yeah, it could be a nope rope to you, but that don't mean you got to kill it, you know? yeah Go do some research. I know. Or call me. i'll I'll go get it for you. Yeah, see, call Liz. Liz is here to help us all today. um That was so good. See, now maybe I will not call them nope ropes anymore, Liz, because of you. um The yes rope.
00:22:42
Speaker
Yes, yes. The yes rope. Oh, wow. So Jason and I, we both work in a STEM field and your work as a biologist kind of covers this wide range from snakes and amphibians, the birds and plants. Can you describe what a biological monitor actually does for folks who might not know?
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah. um Oh, man, that's something I have a lot of experience in. We mostly regulate compliance on site. so So say there is my company, I'm lucky I'm in a company that avoids taking on development projects. It's just kind of depressing and sort of goes against the My ethics, I guess, but but we are on other um other various projects. So it's usually, you could think of it as a construction site.
00:23:27
Speaker
And so it will be me getting on my hard hat my safety vest and everything and heading on site, same time as the cruise, usually like six or 7 a.m., given environmental training going through, there's always, at least in California, that we have pretty robust environmental law in California. So there'll be a number of different permits that we have to follow. So my job before going on site is looking at those permits, understanding what we're dealing with and what might come up on site and also what species that that are protected or not protected may be there. And then training crews on how to ID those species themselves,
00:24:04
Speaker
giving them all my numbers so that they know who to call if they show up and then just spending a lot of time a lot of it is honestly building relationships with the crews to be honest because if you don't have a good relationship with them um they're not gonna want to work with you and like they're not going to tell you if they do see something like i've been on sites before where i find out they've hidden the fact that they found a nest or they didn't want to tell me that a snake came across because they're afraid it's going to shut down work or whatnot. So so a lot of it is standing, like we say, standing around and watching people dig holes. A lot of it is like that and building relationships with the crews, talking to them um you know learning by learning my scientific phrases in Spanish if I need to. In California, we have a lot of Spanish speakers. And then the rest of the time, i'm just sticking by whatever the most, to where like ground moving is or wherever
00:24:54
Speaker
the most impactful work might be. And honestly, just birding and and sharpening my skills. Like, I guess for any listeners that are interested in getting into um the consulting field or biomonitoring, you'll hear from a lot of people like, oh, it's but boring. You're just standing around. And I only, I think it's only as boring as you make it. Like if you decide to be bored, okay. But I've It doesn't matter is where you are. It's on you. always Exactly. sure There's always something to learn. There's always something to look at. Bring your book out there. Bring your Merlin app, whatever. like i love There's something to learn. Yeah, I love that. and you know Take advantage of the opportunity. and and You're a um U.S. s Fish and Wildlife Service approved biological monitor for the California Red-Legged Frog. Is that correct? Yeah, and you know, I think I sent you guys a bio that said that and maybe another species. there so i I've been approved for multiple now. I honestly need to go update that. But California red-legged frog was kind of my intro into herpes and my... I would say one of my favorite animals, is maybe the most beautiful animal in California. i don't know. Yeah, i was just I was just looking it up.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, i was I was actually looking it up. But like what what is that? You mentioned like sometimes you got to stand by the backhoe digger and make sure that they're doing things correctly or or observing what may be being displaced. Yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful creature. Yeah. What does that look like, whether it's for the frog or for other creatures that you're in? I find this fascinating that you are an approved biological monitor, right? Like that's, that's dope. Like there's a, there's a formality to this. There's a training to it to advocate for these creatures. So what does that look like day to day outside of standing by holes? Right. But like when you do see something happening, how do you, how do you address that?
00:26:42
Speaker
Oh, if I, if you're theoretically, if I was to see a red legged frog on site, that's in danger. Man, I mean, you just have to go grab that frog and ask for permission later, you know? yeah But usually the approval means that you're able to do something about it. I guess I'll start off with the approval. Well, you guys probably, it's U.S. Fish and Wildlife, so you probably have certain approvals that you need to get for your jobs and stuff. But um it just basically means, I guess for anyone that doesn't know that... You have to have a certain level of expertise and submit your resume to the fish and wildlife services. So they say like, you can, you have these certain privileges on site to be able to work with this animal or relocate this animal if needed. yeah
00:27:22
Speaker
So, um so yeah, I, I am lucky that I actually haven't ah encountered red legged frog. I've encountered other animals on site that have had to ah relocate and stuff like that. But what you would do is safety first and, You make eye contact with the operator and say, hey, I'm over here and I see something over there. Like, stop, you know. So a lot of my job is like waving my arms and yelling. um You kind of have to be able to. I'm pretty soft spoken, but I had to learn how to be kind of loud and also of sort of stand my ground on step, depending on how the crew is. Yeah. And then usually going in um
00:28:03
Speaker
grab it. Like, no this is where it's important to like know the permits, because if you are able to through the permits, just grab it, then fine. If it's in immediate danger, i usually would say, make sure that it doesn't get killed and then start making your phone calls and being like, Hey, I had to touch this animal. So it it just sort of depends on the specifics on site, but that's kind of what it would look like. And I have been in a situation before where I had to sort of go get the animal and make sure that it wasn't it going to get crushed because it was in imminent danger. um and then go let everybody know as soon, like, you know, the second I could get into service. It could be a little high stress, you know? Yeah. and It sounds like that may, that may, you know, you got to have some good communication skills, right? With the different people that are, that are there to do work, right? And maybe not, you know, they're not there to look out for the the little creatures. It sounds like that teaches you as you go, right? A little bit of conflict resolution, maybe at times.
00:28:59
Speaker
Oh, a lot of conflict resolution. Yeah. There's a whole spectrum of different crews that you'll work with. Like, you know people that do care about the animals, a lot of people that care about animals through hunting, which is like made me kind of have a new appreciation for, there's just like some middle room, you know, um people that are on the opposite end of the political spectrum too. It's ah really forced me to, um,
00:29:24
Speaker
to see people in different lights, be able to kind of pick out like, okay, you know, there's good things and there's bad things. Overall, I could work with this person. There's some people that you can't, but um it really, yeah, it really like, it's it's helpful if you already have the social skills, I sure suppose. Yeah. and I know a lot of us get into biology because we're kind of like, I like animals. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, I want frogs and birds and snakes. I don't want people. had a similar experience to um learning about how hunters and hunting organizations contribute to bird conservation and conservation as a whole because they want to have birds that they can actually
Technology in Ecosystems
00:30:08
Speaker
hunt. So they're They're investing millions and millions of dollars across the country to protect areas and different things. So I've had an experience where I had to learn that there is there can be a balance between hunting and conservation and birding. And, you know, I got homies out there like Al, you know, Al, Christopher Kilgore, people that are out here. Chris literally is probably he was hunting like all of November. And I've learned so much from him. And and he cares about the land more than anybody. So It was kind like this eye-opening experience for me as a birder when I started realizing that, yes, there is balance here and these folks care about care about the land. um Speaking of land, you not only are observing on land, but you've done stuff in the water and you've used different tools and technologies like spatial technology, video imagery. How has that changed the way you understand ecosystems? I think it's just given me like access to seeing them from all different perspectives. ah but More of that kind of ah technology. It was stuff that I did during my undergrad and my grad program. and So I'm a little far but removed. Like ah i you know, I'm not sure really why, but the marine sciences,
00:31:23
Speaker
There seems to be a lot of funding for, um yeah for like spatial technology and like using a lot of GIS, which we do on the terrestrial side too. But for um like what i was ah when I was working on in a marine landscape ecology lab and we were looking at like mapping where in time and space are these like owl bits or abalone. We don't really do that with the, or in my work now, we don't really do that. So I guess,
00:31:50
Speaker
And then the um the underwater imagery stuff, that was pretty interesting, just looking at miles and miles of sand for hours and hours.
00:32:00
Speaker
But yeah, it does kind of make you appreciate um different ecosystems from different angles. ah One reason i think that they there's not as huge of a consulting field for marine science stuff is because a lot of it's underwater and so hard to access. So it's been a privilege to be able to access that stuff, you know, without, I don't want to sound, um, it's not that our technology in the aquatic systems, like ponds and stuff that I, work with now isn't sophisticated, but it is a little more like rudimentary, you know? But yeah, so, but I find it interesting. Like, I feel like ah wildlife ecologists are very um ah crafty, you know, like we'll figure out if there's not a way to do something, it's not going to necessarily. Yeah. Everybody grew up watching MacGyver. We're going to make it happen with some bubble gum and a paperclip. Exactly. the people that I am around, like we we don't have like these big research grants like I was used to in undergrad or in grad school and stuff. So it's like, okay, like I'm thinking of this one thing, like one of my mentors, he
00:33:10
Speaker
he's like, okay, we need to be able to survey the bottom of this pod and it's a deep pond and where we want to use dip nets, which are these nets that you push along the bottom and you find tadpoles and stuff like that or larvae is what he would want me to call them. And um so he found this paper where someone like built a big saying basically with skis on it to run the bottom of a pond. He's like, all right, we're going to build one of these with skis. And so, yeah, that's kind of like what the technology here is like. And we're always trying to find like the cheapest and easiest way to, sure
00:33:44
Speaker
and less least invasive way for the animals to be tracking them and doing that kind of thing. It sounds like um like we see all these wild reality TV shows. That would be a great idea for a show. It's like you have to do something. You have to observe something in nature. You have to not disturb it as best possible.
00:34:00
Speaker
You only get $500 in grant money. Go. That's the episode, right? You know, is like like the only way you win is if you generate the data that you were targeting to generate. Right. But the amount of ingenuity I know is probably really, really incredible. and And I'm wondering, like having had that experience kind of both in the grant spaces and the ecosystems you worked when you were in undergrad, grad school or whatever, and then now coming into this space, right, where maybe the resources aren't there. Do you feel like your observation skills have to be different in those kinds of environments? Have working across those different ecosystems and those different funding pathways made you a better observer? Like, how does that kind of round out your experience, you know, in the in the field biology space? um i think I think it kind of changes the way that you think about whatever work you're wanting to do like if i'm i do. I am part of a small research group, but we do research in the foothills on mostly turtles and red-legged frogs. Yeah, it's not like ah like during undergrad,
00:34:58
Speaker
There was big grants or or undergrad and grad school. There was usually money associated with the lab. So you're kind of like, okay, like if I want to do this, put in a budget proposal, can we fit it in there? And it's kind of, it's not guaranteed, but there's like bigger things that you do or they, yeah, they already have equipment that you need or whatnot. So I'm noticing here, um,
00:35:17
Speaker
you know, as someone that's not a research institution, just kind of doing it on the side, you sort of look at the ecosystem and you're like, I want to do this. Like, what's the, what's the cheapest and easiest pathway there? You know? Yeah. I think that that's a pretty simple answer. You'll, you'll start trying to get creative on, on how you're going to do this. Or like, you know, instead of like putting a transmitter on a frog or something, like what are other ways that we can Sample. And a lot of it is just like, ah you know, consistency and doing more observational stuff, which is valuable and fine. And you can do it without a PhD.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yes. Love that. yeah We touched on this a little bit earlier, but I kind of want to come back to your adaptability, teamwork, your people skills, um your interpersonal skills as a whole in the work that you do. So you're working with clients, you're supervising, working with other biologists. How important is communication? How important is it to have empathy for other people's perspectives and things like that when it comes to conservation work?
Empathy and Communication in Conservation
00:36:22
Speaker
It's everything. There's like this whole human aspect of conservation that I think people are just starting to talk about, you know? I think someone might have written written a paper, like I feel like I got that term from somewhere, probably from the Wildlife Society somewhere in there. But yeah, it's something that me and my friends that are biologists think about a lot. like what are what are the human aspects of conservation? Because ah um when it comes down to it, there's all these different stakeholders, you know? we think that we're trying to do the best thing for our interests.
00:36:53
Speaker
So-and-so thinks he's trying to do the best thing for the land. Who's watching out for the animals? And so because because the animals the animals are awesome, they're doing their thing, they've made it through so much that we put them through, or that colonialism put them through too. Then like at this higher level, it's all these people fighting over, like should we protect them? or and if we do, what's the best way? And like no, that wasn't a good way. We should have done this way stuff.
00:37:17
Speaker
Especially through consulting and having to work with, ah um, work with people that might be more business minded or might be more concerned about like how to get their project through.
00:37:30
Speaker
You sort of have to be able to to balance not i don't even want to say balance, because I think that maybe the balance is, I think that you need to really keep your integrity and make sure that you're doing 100% as best as you can for the animals. Also sort of be able to smooth over things and ah and sort of explain why this is going to be the most beneficial thing or why this is the path forward. And sometimes it's not, or usually it's not like, oh, because this animal needs protection. You need to be creative about figuring out how ah how this will benefit the client. How do you explain it in that way?
00:38:05
Speaker
Sure. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And ah you know it it sounds like you have some of that naturally. Maybe you youve develop those skills just as a person coming through life. But do you do you feel like institutions are really preparing people like as they go out into field biology to have those human-to-human conversations? Could we use more of that? Or is it just learning on the job? You know? I think that the best way is always learning it on the job, but it's also the harder way. i know that that I didn't, you know, i it's really funny in grad school this one time, i do there was one conversation that we had about it. We got together with some other grad students and they took us in this room and we're talking about marine science stuff, like things that people were comfortable with. And then I just remember the professor one of the professors being like, it was more about science communication. And he was
00:38:52
Speaker
And now, you know, we have all this research, but we need to figure out how to. And everyone kind of just like, yeah, everyone sort of just looks at each other and like, yeah, perplexed. And I'm like, man, get out of your room, you know?
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah. Leave the lab. Yeah, leave the lab. I'm lucky it's something that kind of has come naturally to me or been forced to develop over the years. I think that the best, you know, if we're talking about universities, preparing people, that's not easy to do. i think in the classroom, I think we need to be really pushing our students to be going to these professional meetings and push themselves out of the classroom. comfort zones and start talking, start talking, talking to other scientists, I think is the first step, because then from there, obviously, you're going to need to learn how to talk to people that have different perspectives than you. But that's something that kind of I have a ah mentee right now it's state schools, and it doesn't seem like ah it doesn't seem like there's
00:39:57
Speaker
a lot of pressure or like even knowledge of like, okay, there's these different professional societies or like even Latino outdoors and stuff, I guess doesn't have to be a professional society or your guys's groups, just getting out and kind of getting out of your comfort zone and learning to talk to a variety of people. I think that that's the,
00:40:14
Speaker
one of the more important things that you could do for the human side conservation, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You're making this science communication professor very happy. I'll just tell you that. Oh, that's what she did. That's right. We are in the midst a professional.
00:40:31
Speaker
ah ah Yeah, I teach I teach science communication at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. And I always tell people when they ask me what I do, I say my job is to get the future scientists and researchers of the world to get people to understand what they do and why it's important to them or their family or their communities. That's what I do. And then they're like, oh, we really need that. yeah that's Like, what do we do? What do we do? Yeah. but We've all been alive since 2020. We need some science communication. Yeah. Music to my ears.
00:41:08
Speaker
but One more thing i' going to say is that if you are, if you do have listeners or, or your students, and maybe you already give this advice, I think it's kind of maybe a somewhat unpopular
Advice for Young Scientists
00:41:18
Speaker
opinion. But what I used to tell people when I was in grad school and like ah taking people to these sirens conferences and stuff. I'm like, not only do you guys need to talk to professionals and even, especially in the wildlife field, i know in California, if you were to like approach a professional and be like as an undergrad or something and say, hey, can I have like can I meet with you for 15 minutes just to talk about your work and stuff like that? I think nine times out of 10, they're going to be super down to do that. So that A and B, go out and don't go too crazy, but party a little bit with people. And I think that that's actually important because it's professional, but like a lot of the the relationships that I've built in the sciences have like been built over having drink or going out dancing or something like that. I think that we tend to see ourselves as just scientists. We're like, we need to stay professional, blah, blah, blah. It's important to maintain some level of that. The concept of professionality, I think,
00:42:15
Speaker
really gets in the way of us building relationships with each other, which is really important. You deserve that joy. You deserve to have some fun, you know, like, come on. People deserve to be excited about what they're working on and to be able to share it with others. Like that's the part that's like, had same thing in grad school. It was like,
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah, I don't feel like studying this ah this gene structure for this this turnip virus. You know what? Let's go to happy hour afterwards and we can talk about how silly this is. And it actually makes us better scientists in the lab because now we know each other and we can share information. and like I'm wondering, it's like you mentioned Latino outdoors just there. like how did you How did you get involved with them? like Because that that's ah probably a great example of a bunch of really, really smart people that have a lot of really good technical skill sets, but coming together for a more collective mission to communicate science, to communicate the outdoors
Community and Representation
00:43:06
Speaker
to folks. ah like What does that community mean to you and and how did you get started there?
00:43:10
Speaker
Oh, that the community is so important to me. I'll go on and on about that. So I'll start about how i I got involved. i was ah um I was kind of but trying to, so i moved back, I moved away from home for like, I think a little over 10 years. And I decided to come back to Sacramento and ah was working on my career here, like very heads down for many years on ah my career. And then all of a sudden I was like, I miss working with students. I miss working in the community and just kind of like having, feeling like I have my finger on the pulse of things.
00:43:44
Speaker
And I ended up for some reason talking, i was talking on the phone with an old friend from college, Lydia Jennings, she's this really badass um indigenous soil scientist. And she was like, Oh, if you want him to get involved, you should check out Latino outdoors. I met the founder Jose Gonzalez at a conference. is He seems like a really cool guy. So um i I checked them out. And I was actually emailing the wrong people for a really long time. and Finally, what ah another friend, um another badass scientist, she was like, oh, you just didn't email this person directly. That's how I got in. And so emailed someone kind of the right hand the... um the executive director and she was like, Oh yeah, easy. so i was like, Oh man, like a whole year of trying to get on here. and Now this is how I i got on And it was kind of in the midst of COVID like around, I think one or so. And um the Sacramento area had gone a little dormant and i just kind of came in and started Being like, okay, well, I'm not sure what to do. so
00:44:51
Speaker
let's just start here. And I'll start by doing this and doing this and kind of, you know, teaching myself their processes and everything. That's how I've gotten, I got involved with them. And but that what it's meant for me, it's just been, I can't even really describe how, what it's meant for me. Because I think that was really my first sort of step into After so many years, like, you know, over 10 years of being in the field, that was my first step into like, oh, like i really feel valuable in this space and like that.
00:45:23
Speaker
And also i could i could show people and have like a broader reach. like yeah So um I guess like personally, they've they've really like validated me. Even though it's not super science-based, the work that we do in Sacramento tends to tended to be science-based for a while because that's just what me and some of colleagues are colleagues they arere interested in. But it it validated me as like an activist and as ah um just a a person of color in the sciences.
00:45:51
Speaker
And then also just sort of like made me see like, like, okay, this is, this is something that people really want. Like, even when we plan like last minute events, people still show out, like we'll have people that will come last minute and like, you know, that have told me how it's helped them process different things in their life. And I just really, you know, it's not technically an affinity space, um,
00:46:13
Speaker
ah People from all different backgrounds are welcome, but I think having a space that's primarily BIPOC where we can learn together without judgment is so important and something that I wish that I had when I was getting into the outdoors. 100%. That's that. always tell people like, There's that phrase, you can see it, you can be it.
00:46:31
Speaker
That's cool. But if you can see it, be it and do it and then see people doing it that look like you, that takes it to a deeper level. And especially in the science space, I don't see a lot of black and brown scientists that growing up, I didn't see them. I'm starting to see folks out here now a lot more and in in the outdoor spaces, being a part of that solution with the birding club, just like Jason. well Why do Why is that representation so matters so much, Liz?
00:46:57
Speaker
Because I know there are people out there that maybe haven't found that yet, that haven't reconnected, maybe in their community where they left or whatever it may be. Why is it so important to find that space?
00:47:09
Speaker
I just think that if you see other people doing something that other people that look like you're doing something that you haven't done, it just makes it more possible for you. You know, I know, um,
00:47:22
Speaker
It was really like being it an an undergrad and not having um really any other people of color in the science programs with me. And then there was that one professor that was a person of color, but I never got to learn under her.
00:47:36
Speaker
it's like, it's so isolating and feeling like you're having to do this all by yourself, you know? And you could still do it but having ah when you enter one of those communities and start building those relationships, not only seeing, seeing other people and seeing the representation, but just knowing that you have this group of people behind you that like wants you to succeed. And oftentimes when you, I'm not kidding, like when you enter these communities, I'm sure when you see this, when you do this in your bird by pop birding groups too, It's like, you know, this is like, it's like becomes a big family and people don't want to help each other, you know, like, oh, you want to, you want to learn how to you want to learn how to sample for Red-Legged Frog? Like that's something like, yeah, I'll take you on when you do that, you know? I want to know. Come to California and show you.
00:48:21
Speaker
Me, me, me, me, me. Yeah.
00:48:26
Speaker
I just think it makes everything a lot more possible and makes you realize like you're not alone. Like you have ah um you have this powerful group behind you. And like ah when we're able to unite in that way and make each other feel stronger in that way, like, man, we could really wow make things happen, you know? Yeah.
00:48:43
Speaker
Yeah. That's beautiful. Oh, that's amazing. I. Yeah, I, you know, I get sad sometimes when I live on the East Coast because, i you know, half my family still in so in SoCal and like just hearing some of the work that happens out there, right, makes me so proud of just the state and everything y'all are doing. It is time, Liz, for one of our favorite things on this podcast, which is the
Fun Lightning Round
00:49:05
Speaker
lightning round. So we're going to hit you with some hard questions. Yes. Hard fun questions. And we'llll we'll hit like five or six of them to wrap up here today. Are you ready? ready. I think so.
00:49:18
Speaker
She's like, I don't know these dudes. All right, here we go. All right, we're stuck. First one. And this is the first thing that comes to mind. Fieldwork boots or lab gear?
00:49:29
Speaker
Fieldwork boots. Definitely. Like a bunch different pairs. I think I know the answer to this one, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I want to. Snakes or salamanders? Snakes. Obviously.
00:49:44
Speaker
All right. All right. Intertidal zones or forest floors? Intertidal zones. My first one. Field notebook or smartphone? Unfortunately, smartphone, but I am trying to get better with the field notebook.
00:49:58
Speaker
I have it. It's like right there. All right. Your most underrated, underrated species that you've ever worked with? I always say this. The chorus frog or the the Pacific chorus frog or some people call them tree frog. but Okay.
00:50:13
Speaker
You just see them a lot, but they're very awesome species. They're everywhere. So everyone's like, whatever. Very loud. Yeah, loud and beautiful. Love it. All right. Last one.
00:50:24
Speaker
One skill every field biologist needs. Oh, back to what we saying, interpersonal skills. Mm-hmm. All right. See, you survived. Yeah, you did it.
00:50:34
Speaker
You did it. I thought you were going like, what's the species name for her? Oh, no, no, no. We're not on here. We're not going to do you in like that. No, no, no, no, no. examinations we not yeah These are lightning round, joyful questions, but we do have, you know, we kind of have one more kind of interesting question. What is your favorite animal right now?
00:50:53
Speaker
And this is not necessarily a lightning round question, but like, and why is that your favorite animal in this season of your life? Okay. Um, Man, that's a hard one because it's kind of tied between two. And I already told you about the barn owl. The northern flickers just came back into town a little bit ago.
00:51:09
Speaker
And why am i naming birds right now? It's not just birds. That's right, because you're on the Bird Joy podcast. Everybody got, you know, you got them red shafted northern flickers out there and they are beautiful. So tell us about it. They're just um a species that I notice coming into my neighborhood every year, but I don't know why sometimes it takes me, it's like when a new album comes out and i have to wait a year for me to be able to be able to absorb it. Well, it took me several years for the flickers, but I think... ah um Just having them come in from out of town. like I think that's, you know I'm like, oh, you came back here? like That's awesome. Yeah, eat stuff in my backyard. They're like so heavy bodied look very, um it's like the yellow billed magpie, which we have over here too. They look like almost like
00:51:56
Speaker
Whoa, you guys are like here in SAC? Like you're beautiful. what are you doing here? You know? The orange feathers, that chest, the spotting and their call. I love the flicker call. I get excited every time I hear it. That is fantastic. That is fantastic.
00:52:12
Speaker
Liz, this This has been incredible. I was, you know, when Jay, we were putting together this season and he told me he was able to get you as a guest. I got really excited because we're trying to not only talk about birds and bird joy, but highlight STEM professionals all over that are just doing incredible work.
00:52:31
Speaker
And the work that you are doing is needed. You are. It's just it's so inspiring. It's so inspiring. So thank you for taking some time out of your day to educate our audience on the amazing work that you're doing.
00:52:44
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. Like I said, I was thrilled to get that message from you guys. yeah And it was so good to meet both of you. And also, i didn't mention it before, but for Latino Outdoors, if any of your listeners that are interested, we are not just in California.
00:52:59
Speaker
We have we have chapters all over the country. So check check out the website and see. Just got ours a couple weeks ago here in Madison, Wisconsin. I heard about that on the national level.
00:53:11
Speaker
Yeah, I was kind of fired up. I shared it into our birding club group and I was really fired up to see that. So yeah, we are one of the cities that has it now.
00:53:22
Speaker
yeah, we got excited. Philly too. We are also representing and it's it's great to see these organizations. Wow. Liz, thank you so much. I'm actually now trying to figure out how we do a herping and birding walk when it gets again.
00:53:36
Speaker
That would be really, really dope. Hey, we had a new guest that we interviewed that talked about herping and this tying in herping and birding. So I think we might be onto something here, Jay.
00:53:46
Speaker
I think so. I think so. Oh, yeah. I'm planning on doing a snake walk probably in the spring over here. So I'll give you guys some tips and tricks we can figure out the best way to do. I guess you can share it so we can let the homies come out.
00:53:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Liz. Everybody out there, make sure you're checking out Liz. Where can we find you again? It is at Brown Girl Biologist. So make sure you check out Liz and share this episode.
00:54:12
Speaker
Subscribe. They're not note-roats. They're yes-roats. And if anyone has questions about no-peating over guest ropes or consulting anything that they think I could help with, I'm friendly. i don't bite. So feel free to send me a message. All right. Thank you so much, Liz. And take care. Thank you, guys.