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Episode 109: Recovering from Religious Trauma
617 Plays1 year ago
Welcome back Witches! In this episode, we delve into the journey of recovering from religious trauma, exploring the challenges, triumphs, and transformative healing processes. So get in losers, it's time to reclaim our power and embrace the freedom to live authentically beyond the constraints of religious dogma.
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Music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio- The Witch
References:
- Moreno, Manny. Researchers find 1 in 3 Americans suffer from religious trauma, many in LGBTQ+ community. (2024). The Wild Hunt. https://wildhunt.org/2024/02/researchers-find-1-in-3-americans-suffer-from-religious-trauma-many-in-lgbtq-community.html
- Jakobson, Haley. Everything You Need to Know About: Religious Trauma. My Wellbeing. https://mywellbeing.com/ask-a-therapist/religious-trauma#:~:text=Religious%20or%20spiritual%20trauma%20is,religious%20groups%20and%20belief%20systems.
- Jones, Timothy W, Jennifer Power, and Tiffany M. Jones. Religious Trauma and Moral Injury from LGBTQA+ Conversion Practices. (2022) Social Science & Medicine Vol. 305. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027795362200346X
- Calvin Burns (n.d.). Restoring Self and Spirituality After Religious Trauma. Lifeologie Counseling. https://wefixbrains.com/resources/restoring-self-and-spirituality-after-religious-trauma#:~:text=The%20journey%20of%20recovering%20from,their%20spirituality%20or%20religious%20practices.
- Mandy Steinhardt (2022). What is Religious Trauma? Symptoms and how to heal. Mandy Steinhardt.com. https://www.mandysteinhardt.com/what-is-religious-trauma-symptoms-how-to-heal
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Transcript
Introduction & Episode Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you feel drawn to learn more about witchcraft and the occult, but feel lost on where to start? Then welcome to Get In, Loser. We're doing Witchcraft, a podcast all about what it means to be a witch and where to get started on your journey. Join us as we navigate through various witchy topics and share what we've learned about the craft. So get in, witches, as we get deep and talk about recovering from religious trauma.
00:00:40
Speaker
Don't do that. I know, I know. There's no reason for me to be yawning, but of course. There's always reason. I'm always sleepy. I'm always sleepy. Yeah.
Personal Stories & Relatable Moments
00:00:54
Speaker
And then, you know, just for our listeners,
00:00:58
Speaker
Tiffany is suffering from allergies. Always. It's so much fun up in here. I feel like we can't catch a break. No. It's always something with one of us. Yeah. And then my dog, again, is at the door probably going to bark throughout this episode. At some point you might hear him.
00:01:23
Speaker
There might be roosters, there might be other dogs, there might be a couple cats thrown in there, might be some children. I mean the weather's been shit. So the rooster's been pretty quiet because it's cold so they're all in their little pen. Yeah. And Auntie Lex got home last night. We picked her up so the dogs will probably just be annoying her. They were so excited. They almost killed her going up the stairs. Oh, that's really sweet.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah. They love her so much. Aw. See, that's how you know you're a good person, if dogs love you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Watch I Come Visit You, and the dog's going to be like, ugh. Rune doesn't hate anything. Rune loves everything. Aw. Well. Nix, however, takes a minute. If she hates me at first, I'm sure by the end, I will sway her to my side, because animals usually like me, except for Nix. Everyone at first. Not Nix. Nike.
00:02:19
Speaker
hahaha
00:02:20
Speaker
You know what though, since coming back to Germany, Nike has been a completely different cat. So we got Nike in Germany and then PCS to the States with her when she was like two or three. And she was like a little shit in the States. When people would come over my cat, Nike turns into a demon. She'll like hide under my bed or she used to. She would hide under my bed and like growl and do the weird like cat noises that they do. And then she would be a shit for like a whole day afterwards.
00:02:49
Speaker
And one time, I feel like we've told this on the podcast before, but one time I went out of town and Samantha was checking on the cats for me and Nike made little biscuits and got her nails stuck in a blanket and wouldn't let Sam help her out. It was very traumatic for Sam, but for her too. Yeah. But since getting to Germany, like when people come over, she comes out. She's still not like a big fan of kids, which she never has been, but like adult human. She's like, Oh, hi.
00:03:19
Speaker
Oh, times. Yeah. Because she's German. I know her back home. She needed to experience. She's like, thank God we're back. Yeah. Which seems honestly.
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah. I have missed Europe since leaving it the first time, and now I never want to leave, so. Yeah. I can't wait to come back. I know. I need to come visit, and we need to come visit. We were talking about that the other day. Oh my gosh, that'd be so cool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'll make it happen, Gavin. It'll work out. But.
00:04:01
Speaker
We're not talking about travel plans and cats. Unfortunately not today.
Understanding Religious Trauma
00:04:08
Speaker
We're talking about religious traumas. This is a heavy episode. It's going to be a really heavy episode. Yeah. We're sorry in advance. Yes, we're sorry in advance. But we're going to get through it together, OK? We're here together. We're going to make this work. We'll hold hands virtually. We'll get through it.
00:04:29
Speaker
And so, you know, while this is heavy and some of the topics that we talk about might be triggering to some of you, especially if say you have your own religious trauma you're still working through, just be mindful of that. Be mindful of how you are feeling and how your emotions are making you feel safe if you were to listen to this episode and understand your limits. So like if this episode is too intense for you,
00:04:55
Speaker
we of course understand and we'll see you next week with a Gemini episode. So it's not all doom and gloom? No, no. We're all here today. Just occasionally we have to sprinkle a little doom in there. Just a little bit. A little bit of gloom on the side. Yeah, but covering this topic, like the topic of religious trauma, was kind of important to us because it's a real and pervasive issue that leaves many people in our community feeling shameful for their choices that don't fall in line with religious beliefs.
00:05:25
Speaker
that are often pushed on us from the time that we're children without our consent. As someone who grew up in a very intense religion, I think it's important to recognize that it's okay to be disgusted by those beliefs and practices when you're looking back, and that it's also important to recognize that no longer believing in or following those practices doesn't make you lesser and you shouldn't feel ashamed for questioning those beliefs.
00:05:52
Speaker
Religion has a way of indoctrinating their followers from the time that they're babies and they're unable to make their own choices. They follow a practice of being the first thing that children learn so that they don't even know to question those beliefs as they get older. They just take them for fact because it's all they know. If you are someone that's recovering from religious trauma, know that it's okay and you're doing just fine. A great tool for this, though, is therapy.
00:06:19
Speaker
you know, Sam and I plug therapy quite a bit on the podcast. So if this is something that you're experiencing and something that you're working through, therapy would be a great tool to help you process that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Can't stress that more. If you need to help a professional, please go see a therapist if you need help working on your shit. Yes. Yes, please.
00:06:46
Speaker
To start off this conversation, we're going to talk a little bit about what religious trauma is specifically. Before we get into what exactly religious trauma is, I think it's important to highlight as well that religion at its core
Historical Context & Modern Examples
00:07:04
Speaker
is something that is supposed to provide comfort, peace, identity,
00:07:08
Speaker
and purpose to someone's life, and religion is and should always remain very personal to an individual. And while there are many benefits to being part of a community of like-minded individuals, someplace where you feel accepted, loved, and part of a whole, for many people, they feel the opposite.
00:07:27
Speaker
that space where they are supposed to be loved unconditionally felt more like judgment and shame and this is where we see religious trauma. Religious trauma relates to the negative consequences someone experiences from engaging in religion or a spiritual practice.
00:07:44
Speaker
And religious or spiritual trauma is recognized in psychology as symptoms experienced by individuals who participated in or left behind authoritarian, dogmatic, and controlling religious groups and belief systems. And this is like a legit definition I will have you know, because every, like that is the definition. Like this isn't somebody just making up this definition. This is the definition for religious trauma that you will see if you were to look it up.
00:08:14
Speaker
So when we're talking about religious trauma, this covers a wide array of different experiences and that can look like negative treatment from or by authority figures in a spiritual space.
00:08:27
Speaker
different spiritual beliefs and teachings themselves, which can cultivate guilt, shame, fear, or other emotional distress within a community. And all of this can be felt from intentional acts of abuse or control, or in a lot of cases, unintentional acts known to say maybe the other members or leaders within these groups.
00:08:46
Speaker
And so there's a lot of examples of religious trauma throughout history. And so just to name a few of these, the witch burnings, of course, excommunication, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, forced sterilization, and the trial of Galileo. And additionally, spiritual and religious trauma can also look like religious leaders and institutions emphasizing a patriarchal family structure, emphasizing the belief
00:09:13
Speaker
of a deity is exclusively male and blaming all sin and temptation on women while also demonizing sexuality. It could also look like interpreting religious texts to serve an agenda and exerting control over one's lives. Also, the King James version, right? Yeah. Yes.
00:09:33
Speaker
Also, dogmatic religious beliefs that condemn independent thought or use shame and gaslighting as a response to people who disagree with them. Feeling coerced to do things you don't want to do, such as donating money, taking part in ritual practices, believing in something against your own personal values. This could also include staying in an abusive marriage because you're part of this
00:09:57
Speaker
religion and you're part of this church and this is what you're supposed to do. Being forced to give birth or even marrying someone against your own will. This could also look like ridiculing someone's mental or physical health symptoms as being sinful or weak of faith and believing things like natural disasters or punishment for sin or categorizing thoughts as good or bad with no one between and the belief that humans are inherently sinful evil or corrupt and that we need religion
00:10:26
Speaker
to somehow help us get to some sort of promised land. It could also look like believing that an attraction to someone of the same sex is sinful. And it could also look like using religious beliefs to create, condone, or spread violence as a means to convert others to their religion. There are many different causes and things that can contribute to religious trauma.
00:10:48
Speaker
And so this could include things like emotional, physical and sexual abuse, manipulation and betrayal within religious communities, forced conformity, judgment or threat of eternal damnation, or forced suppression of natural desires.
00:11:03
Speaker
example, purity culture, and autonomy to align with the belief system. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of really heavy things. A lot of really heavy things. I think that it's also important to note before we go any farther that we don't
00:11:21
Speaker
think that all religions are bad and we don't think that any of our followers that also are religious are bad. There's just good and bad in everything. There's good and bad in witchcraft. There's good and bad in religion. And so religious trauma is a very real thing that happens. And so that's why we're covering this, but we're not saying all religions are bad and all religious people are bad.
00:11:42
Speaker
Absolutely. I meant to say that at the beginning, you completely forgot. Yeah. And it's a spectrum with everything. Just like you said with witchcraft, you have people who are
00:11:53
Speaker
way off the deep end where you're like, actually, I wouldn't consider you pagan or a witch or anything because this is too far. The same thing with Christianity. Or any other religion that believes, like some of these ways and causes emotional, physical, sexual abuse or manipulation, things like that. Yeah. So now that we got that out of the way, a study by the Global Center for Religious Research
00:12:22
Speaker
which I've linked this study in our show notes and I meant to like put in here so I would remember, so I'm glad that I did. The Global Center of Religious Research is actually like not affiliated with any like religion or like denomination of faith. They just study religions and some of the outcomes of the things that they do. So they found that one third or 27 to 33% of US adults. So again, this is only going to be for the United States. I couldn't find anything like worldwide. I wish I could, but
00:12:52
Speaker
for the US at least, have experienced religious trauma at some point in their lives. And while this is what a study conducted on religious trauma noted, the researchers believe that this is like a very conservative estimate as this percentage rises to 37% when including individuals that suffer from any three of the six major religious trauma symptoms.
Behavioral Influence & Compliance Tactics
00:13:15
Speaker
So from what I'm understanding on what I read of this is they
00:13:19
Speaker
With this study they had a six whole symptoms and if you met all of those you were included in that 27 to 33 percent so for the whole study at least
00:13:30
Speaker
37% met like half of those. So that's wild, but it is what it is. This same study also estimates that 10 to 15% of US adults are presently suffering from religious trauma, while 90% of participants also noted to be aware of one to 10 people likely suffering, like just people that they know.
00:13:53
Speaker
wild and horrible too because oftentimes like these people just think that what they're doing is wrong because that's what they're being told and it's not necessarily the case.
00:14:03
Speaker
So as I stated earlier, children are often indoctrinated at a young age because religion often takes advantage of the youth who are looking to fit in and belong somewhere, making them pray, essentially. Oftentimes what religion does is it convinces a person that they can be saved if they just commit themselves to the belief of the church, if they accept God in their hearts,
00:14:24
Speaker
If they tithe 10% of their earnings and they recruit new members, which oddly enough sounds like a pyramid scheme to me, except the only ones profiting from this is the church, not the people recruiting. So they tell their members that if they do the above,
00:14:41
Speaker
And if they follow the tenants, the commandments, whatever they call them, that they'll go to heaven after they die to live in some paradise for eternity with God, Jesus, the heavenly host, like whatever, like whatever they call it. Each religion has their own version of what this paradise is. They also tell their followers that should they not do the above and follow the rules or pay the church or recruit new people,
00:15:03
Speaker
that then they'll be punished after they die through an eternity of burning in hell, which in Christianity is ruled by Satan, the devil, Lucifer, whatever they call him, and his demons. So all this to say, essentially, religion uses scare tactics on their followers.
00:15:20
Speaker
to keep them in line and to keep them coming back to the church every whatever day they go, like Sunday, Wednesday, whatever. This like tactic ensures that the church doors stay open and that the church continues to profit, but all in the name of God, right? When someone leaves the church or maybe even just questions their beliefs, others within the congregation will often start to shun them, accuse them of falling for like, quote unquote, the devil's tricks and so on, making the person out to be a bad person.
00:15:48
Speaker
And this often leads them to feelings of guilt and shame for no longer falling in line. A therapist by the name of, okay, I'm gonna pronounce this how I think it's pronounced, but I'm not 100% sure. And it's a name, so I can't look it up, guys, okay? Doing my best here. But their name is Shimmy Feintuch? Feintuck?
00:16:10
Speaker
fintuck? I don't know. So I'm just gonna refer to them as shimmy because that's the easier part of their name.
00:16:26
Speaker
But they stated that trauma is the loss of safety or security. It can come from something horrific happening, but it can also come from anything that impacts someone's ability to feel safe or secure. If someone grows up with the idea that if you do X, Y, and Z, you're going to hell, for some people there's a real loss of like a sense that they're okay.
Varied Reactions to Trauma
00:16:48
Speaker
I also want to note here that different people are going to react differently.
00:16:52
Speaker
Not everyone's going to be impacted by the same trauma in the same way. And there's an entire study done on trauma resilience, but that's a whole different topic for another time and place. It's important to note these things when we discuss topics like this, because not everyone's going to have super intense feelings or negative reactions to religion just because they've experienced religious trauma.
00:17:14
Speaker
Like brains are wild in the way that they work so differently depending on the person and like their life experiences. So like you may have had religious trauma happen to you and you just go on with your life. Like that was a time in my life and you're fine. Not everybody's going to be that way. You also may be on the complete opposite spectrum where like even the thought of religion like makes you sick.
00:17:37
Speaker
So just know that wherever you fall on this spectrum, it's okay. You're going to get through it. Therapy is a great tool. And just because someone else isn't as reactive as you or someone is more reactive than you, doesn't make their experience any less. So another therapist by the name of Sherri Heller, which is a much easier name to pronounce,
00:17:59
Speaker
She specializes in religious and spiritual trauma, but she states that religious or spiritual trauma is a form of psychological abuse and brainwashing that indicates the shameful message that we are sinful and must live in a constant state of penance or atonement to escape the ravages of hell and God's punishment. This kind of fall redemption theology uses fear to ensure dominance and control.
00:18:24
Speaker
Essentially, it sets up Stockholm Syndrome within the spiritual religious leader and one's idea of God. And just a final piece on the baseline and background of religious trauma, therapist ST Hirsch, who works primarily with LGBTQ plus individuals, stated that the isolation one experiences as a result of not fitting in
00:18:45
Speaker
and not being accepted or respected by those around them is one of the deepest religious spiritual traumas for people to navigate and work through. She goes on to say that many of her patients talk about the pain and suffering they experience
00:18:59
Speaker
or have experienced as a result of living a secret life, feeling that they could not be honest about who they are with the people closest to them. And while it would be easy to discuss religious trauma by itself at length, we're here today to talk about how those that have or are experiencing this can recover. So we'll get off our soap boxes now.
00:19:21
Speaker
And we've set that baseline of what it is and we can move on to the more helpful topic of recovering and healing and recognizing those signs and symptoms.
00:19:30
Speaker
Amen, brother. Or sister. You know, you know, we love a topic that's got studies and doctors and therapists putting in some input. So this one, I can go on for days. I can go on for days because there were so many studies. Yeah. So moving into some signs and symptoms. So how can we tell if
00:19:58
Speaker
we are experiencing religious trauma or somebody around us is experiencing religious trauma. Again, it could present itself in many different ways. And for the basis of this episode, we're just going to categorize them into four different
00:20:11
Speaker
categories. So emotional, cognitive, social, and cultural. So as far as emotional signs and symptoms, something that you might experience if you are suffering through religious trauma is chronic shaming learned in childhood. And this can change the brain's chemistry to replicate symptoms of PTSD. And again, like you could actually have PTSD from religious trauma, but sometimes it
00:20:36
Speaker
Could just be that the chronic shaming that you learned Changes your brain's chemistry to an extent that it replicates the symptoms also experiencing grief anxiety stress anger frustration depression loneliness and a sense of hopelessness self-hatred
00:20:54
Speaker
and even experiencing shame related to any of the actions that you're doing or like say actions of wanting to not participate in church anymore, experiencing shame related to that. As far as cognitive signs and symptoms, this could include things like reduced self-esteem, difficulty making decisions, poor critical thinking skills, struggling to fit in or feeling like you belong,
00:21:18
Speaker
sleep disorders, nightmares, eating disorders, addictions, OCD, perfectionism, and hypervigilance. This could also present itself as struggling to hold on to a stable sense of self and difficulty understanding or communicating your own beliefs and values.
00:21:35
Speaker
As far as social goes, this can bring out the inability to trust others, difficulty in forming meaningful relationships, social anxiety, isolation, and an inability to say no to others. It can also bring out delayed social milestones, blurred boundaries, and sexual dysfunction. In terms of cultural, there often is that loss of community.
00:21:59
Speaker
disconnected from your culture, especially around religious holidays, and lacking a sense of belonging and community, not wanting to stay up to date with trends and current affairs, becoming overly critical of the world. And while this is often considered a cliche topic, I think it's a very important topic to discuss. Just in case any of our listeners are experiencing this,
00:22:22
Speaker
But as mentioned, common symptoms of religious trauma surround sex, and this can manifest in different ways in different people. For some, this form of trauma can repress your sexuality altogether. Sherry Heller states that religion unto itself is not sexually repressive. There are thousands of theological paths.
00:22:41
Speaker
Any form of extremist ideology or rigidity will promulgate depraved behavior as what it is contemptuously denied and repressed will be acted out in destructive ways. She goes on to state that in most religious schools, there is almost no sex education. And if you've had no sex education, how are you supposed to develop any kind of healthy sensuality?
Impact on Sexuality & Personal Beliefs
00:23:05
Speaker
It's like if I gave you a very complicated toy and told you to figure it out without any instruction manual,
00:23:11
Speaker
And if the church is saying that sex is bad, masturbation is bad, premarital sex is bad, desire is bad, people are just going to tell themselves that they are bad. For others, this type of trauma can make climaxing during sex not reachable. On this topic, Sheri Heller stated that
00:23:27
Speaker
The body and the mind work together. When sexual arousal is deemed abhorrent to God, the mind and the body might reject receiving pleasure. If sexual abuse occurred either by clergy or family members, the abused child is susceptible to believing that it is his or her inherent defect or sin that is responsible for the abuse.
00:23:47
Speaker
And if you are experiencing either of these symptoms, it's definitely important to go to a doctor to rule out anything physical. But what therapists are finding in these studies, according to SD Hirsch, is that the inability to climax in their patient suffering from religious trauma often stems from a deep feeling of guilt and shame that is internalized through the values placed on them during their upbringing, which is awful. That is awful. Really sad.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah. And if you are going through this or you know somebody who is, I really hope that you get help and you go and talk to somebody that you trust and let them help you to find help, if that makes sense. Okay. Yes.
Healing & Therapy
00:24:30
Speaker
So moving on to some ways to heal and recover. Recovering from any trauma is going to be a journey that is unique to each individual. So again, like
00:24:38
Speaker
you know really highlighting what Tiffany said someone's trauma like you guys two people might go through the same exact traumatic experience but deal with it completely differently and that's totally fine how you deal with your trauma that is going to be a unique journey some people may need therapy some people may not need therapy some people may need to you know
00:24:57
Speaker
go to an institution and actually go through like impatient treatment and recovery. And that's totally fine. Some people won't. It just depends. So you need to include, though, whenever you are trying to heal and recover from religious trauma, there needs to be an inclusion of deconstructing personal beliefs
00:25:18
Speaker
restoring a sense of self-worth establishing healthy boundaries and in some cases rebuilding a practice that is meaningful for you and for some of y'all that might not ever be a thing like you may never want to believe in any sort of anything related to religion and that's totally fine too but making sure that you are
00:25:36
Speaker
you know, building up your own self confidence and your self worth establishing healthy boundaries, deconstructing those personal beliefs that you have related to shame and guilt, that is going to be the most important thing that you're going to want to do in this situation.
00:25:50
Speaker
And I think it's important just one more time to give therapy another plug here. We've mentioned it at the top of the episode. We've just mentioned it again in terms of any of the sexual issues that might arise. But if you've been listening to us for any amount of time, you know that Sam and I are both huge advocates for therapy.
00:26:12
Speaker
There are therapists that specialize on this topic, but it's also important that you feel comfortable with the person that you're working with. So do a consultation and let them know what your goal is for your sessions before locking yourself into someone. And honestly, even if you start seeing someone, if you're not vibing, find someone else. Find someone that's going to make you feel comfortable and make you feel like you're working through these problems and helping give you the tools that you need. But just make sure that you're going to someone that understands
00:26:41
Speaker
what you're going through, the topic that you're working through, and what you need out of your sessions.
Developing Personal Ethics
00:26:47
Speaker
Take as much time and space as you need with this one, but also think about your personal values.
00:26:54
Speaker
independently of what you were taught by the church or others within a church or any religious group that you might have been a part of. Create your own moral compass that feels authentic to you. A therapeutic study also stated that those working on dismantling the blind obedience that abusive religions demanded of them
00:27:13
Speaker
found that reading literature that covers the topics of ethics and morality to be extremely helpful in finding and establishing their own personal ethics. And it's extremely important to note that there's no set formula to how long the healing process can take, and that this process and healing will not necessarily be like a linear process. There's a lot of variables to consider when it comes to this topic.
00:27:37
Speaker
Remember that your history is always going to be a part of you and it's going to inform the person that you are today. But you can work through your trauma and create space within yourself for more empathy and more understanding. Many of the therapists I quoted today recommend the following readings for more information on this topic. So these, I believe, are linked in the study that is linked in our show notes. So if you're interested in them, you can find them there. The first one is Traumatized by Religious Abuse.
00:28:07
Speaker
Courage, Hope, and Freedom for Survivors, and this is by Connie Baker. And the second one is Leaving the Fold, a guide for former fundamentalists and others leaving their religion. And this is by Marlene Whannell. Yeah.
00:28:20
Speaker
Interesting. That was the very heavy topic. And there's obviously so much more that we could even cover on this, but honestly, we don't need to go too deep unless you guys really want us to. If you want more information on this topic and you want us to explore a little bit more, maybe even invite a guest on the show to talk about religious trauma, let us know. Or if you yourself are somebody who maybe has experienced religious trauma, you've come to the other side, you want to educate others on it, you want to discuss it,
00:28:50
Speaker
We would love to talk to you about it. Yeah, for sure. But that's it. That's religious trauma in a nutshell.
Conclusion & Preview of Next Episode
00:29:09
Speaker
That's it for this episode of Get In Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft. You can find our source material for this episode linked in the show notes. If you love this episode, we would be forever thankful if you leave us a five star review on wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you really love the show and want more Get In Loser content,
00:29:25
Speaker
Check out our Supercast link provided in the show notes or search the Supercast website for Get In, Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft. There you can purchase and membership to our podcast and obtain exclusives like getting episodes early, shoutouts on the show, access to our Ask Me Anything forum, our monthly newsletter, a promo code for merchandise, and more. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at GetInWitches or email us at we'redoingwitchcraft at jamel.com.
00:29:51
Speaker
Join us next week for a much lighter topic because it's Gemini season. Until then, blessed Beequitches.