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Episode 29 – Part 1 – What to consider as a student thinking of going into surveying? with Hilary Grayson, Sava
46 Plays1 year ago
In this week's episode, we are speaking with Hilary Grayson from Sava!
In part one, we're discussing how to decide if surveying is for you and what to consider before you do.
Hilary joined Sava in 2003 and is now a Director focusing much of her time on the development of new qualifications.
Following a degree in Estate Management at Southbank Polytechnic (now LSBU), Hilary qualified as a General Practice Surveyor in 1983 leading her to work for private consultancies in London and Bromley Council before joining RICS at Great George Street. She joined Surveyors and Valuers Accreditation Ltd which was later acquired by NES Ltd (now Sava). At Sava, she went on to set up the original assessment centre and created the Diploma in Residential Surveying and Valuation.
In part 1, we're discussing
😍 The importance of having a genuine interest in property
🏡 The benefits of caring about how a building is used and who uses it
🫶 Guidance and support in making an informed decision
👪 Understand the commitment you're making and the need for support networks
👀 The realities of shadowing, GDPR and insurance
Plus much more...
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Survey Booker Sessions
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host, Matt Nally, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for surveyors.
Interview with Hilary Grayson
00:00:15
Speaker
On this week's episode, we have Hilary Grayson, who is the director of surveying services at SAVA. So thank you very much for coming on.
00:00:22
Speaker
my absolute pleasure Matt. It's been a little while since I've done a podcast like this so looking forward to it very much. It's a pleasure to have you on.
Career Path in Surveying
00:00:32
Speaker
Do you want to give everyone, I'm sure a lot of people already know who you are, but do you want to give us a bit of background as to
00:00:37
Speaker
what you do at SAVA and what SAVA do? Yeah, so I'll start with me. So I was a good, good old fashioned jobbing surveyor for a long time. I qualified back in the day when there were the old divisions and I was a general practice surveyor.
00:00:56
Speaker
That meant in truth that I was a valuer first and foremost. And I never really worked in housing other than when I was at Bromley Council. I used to package up land which we would sell mostly for housing developers because of the way that Bromley worked and the way it was structured as a borough at the time in South London fringes.
00:01:21
Speaker
Following that I actually went to RICS and I'm a bit of a poacher turned gamekeeper so having been on the inside of Great George Street saw how that worked which was very interesting and from Great George Street and in fact
00:01:37
Speaker
then my portfolio did include residential.
SAVA's Educational and Software Offerings
00:01:40
Speaker
So that's why I picked up the sort of residential portfolio. So I've been working with residential affairs now for over 20 years, near a 25 I would say. And then I joined SAVA when SAVA was still its first incarnation.
00:01:58
Speaker
which was to do with competency, surveyor competency. It was an independent business. It was set up by my two then colleagues down in Woking. It was that business that was acquired by my current employer. I was bought literally 20 years ago this year. It's my emerald anniversary, it turns out. When I was bought by this Zava, as it were,
00:02:27
Speaker
And I led on the development back in the early 2000s on the development of the home inspector qualification that we delivered here. The less said about that, the better.
00:02:37
Speaker
But that gave me the real insight and understanding of vocational qualifications. And that led me on to create, with the chapter is now retired, a chap called Chris Rispin, but we created the diploma in residential surveying and valuation about 10 years ago now. And we've been running it operationally for about eight. So a lot of people will probably know us through the diploma.
00:03:07
Speaker
and recognize this as one of the leading training providers for surveying in the country.
00:03:14
Speaker
Our business, interestingly, we do also offer, we have a software side where we profile the energy efficiency of housing stock. So we have over 200 housing provider clients on that side of the business who use our profiling software as part of their drive for net zero. And that's a side of the business that we're exploring in terms of skills and educational need as well. So that's, yeah, that's me and a bit of an introduction to SAVA as well.
00:03:44
Speaker
Awesome. I think that's a nice segue actually into, I suppose what we're going to be covering today.
Importance of Passion in Surveying
00:03:50
Speaker
So we'll touch on the net zero sustainability bits later on in the afternoon. Yeah. I suppose the first bit, tying into the training aspect and the diploma side, my first question, and I suppose it's possibly more useful for students that are looking to come into the industry, is what do you need to consider as a student or potential student coming into the surveying industry?
00:04:13
Speaker
I think for what we say to our learners, and it definitely sort of bears out in the success of people going through the programme, is you have to be interested in property. You don't have to have had a background in property. You don't have to be an estate agent. About a third of our learners will come from a state agency, 25%, 30% will come from a state agency.
00:04:39
Speaker
you don't have to be a small landlord, you don't have to have a background but what you do have to have is a real interest in the subject because if you don't there's a lot to absorb, there's a lot to take in and if you don't have that
00:04:55
Speaker
kind of interest and drive, it will be a chore rather than a pleasure to do the learning. So I would say that's the most critical kind of thing about an individual that just that have that real interest and passion about property. On that note then, are there things you can do to really test how much you think you have enjoyed? Interesting because I say this from the perspective of
00:05:19
Speaker
I did a uni course years ago and I chose the wrong course to begin with and had to swap and do something else, move on to a different course. And it's something I thought I was really interested in. It covered the four subjects I did at school. I did exactly, made exactly the same mistake or I can relate to that. I can relate to that. Do you know what?
Housing Evolution and History
00:05:38
Speaker
It's kind of, it's walking down the street. I think if you're walking down the street and you're looking around you and you are
00:05:49
Speaker
looking at houses, you're looking at buildings and you're thinking how old is that and why was that built there and I wonder who lives there and what's the history of that and why has that property got that particular feature
00:06:09
Speaker
And if there's a brick wall that looks a bit odd, what might be going on with that brick wall? And do those people share a drive? How do they manage their access? How do they manage who repairs what? Can you even get a car into that garage? It's just noticing things that make you kind of go, what is this all about? And I think that would be
00:06:33
Speaker
You know, if you walk down, if you look at a house and you can't, you think age, you know, you're just not interested. I can't see that it would fly with you. And I think housing in particular, where we live, places we live, I think there's also, and I think this is one of the things that makes me really interested in housing, is it ties in with sort of kind of social history.
00:06:58
Speaker
and how particularly over the last 150 years which is sort of a bit of a sort of most of us will live in housing that was built over the last 150 years and most of the housing stock in the UK will date from those sorts of period and it's kind of like being able to relate how we've developed as a society and what was happening and you know the great
00:07:22
Speaker
Certainly all these old towns are gonna have sort of swathes of Victorian terraced housing. Why? Why was there no terraced housing before sort of the late 1800s? You know, what was it that sort of drove people to the towns? What was going on in the world? What was going on after the First World War that drove the move to sort of garden cities and that sort of changes in architecture?
00:07:44
Speaker
that we began to see in the 20s and 30s and ditto in the 50s you know why was suddenly 1950s looking different to what it had looked like in the 1930s and it all ties in with sort of a wider sort kind of social picture so I think social history is something again that you know it floats my boat and I think it again comes back to that
00:08:05
Speaker
How did housing react to our needs? Yeah. And technological changes and, you know, changes in kitchens and introduction of washing machines and all of that that made made the way we occupy our houses so different. So, yeah, if that makes sense. That's a lovely perspective. Yeah, that's a lovely perspective. It makes me think of back in school, I didn't particularly enjoy history, sadly. And then now I really find it interesting. And one of my favorite programs is abandoned engineering.
00:08:34
Speaker
So it's looking at those types of projects that came up and why are they built there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did enjoy history at school. I did enjoy history at up to a level anyway. I did history and I did enjoy it. But I yeah, it's I do find it. But it's always about the people.
00:08:50
Speaker
The building's great, you know, and that's what's left. You see the buildings and you see what's, you know, a remnant of an old castle or whatever it might be. But it's the people. It's what was it that drove somebody to invest time and energy and money and resources into building that thing there.
00:09:09
Speaker
and how did they live and how did they occupy it and what were the drivers and it's really interesting and on the side I'm a trustee at a charity here in Milton Keynes and it's a place called Westbury Arts Centre and the building itself dates from the 1600s or bits of it do some of its 1950s
00:09:32
Speaker
but it's actually on a site that was occupied by the Saxons. And I am the custodian of a moat or what's left of a moat that is over a thousand years old. And you think, why were they building moats in Milton Keynes a thousand years ago? Why are the Saxons building moats making their farmsteads? Because it was a farmer working sort of farmstead. Why were they building moats? Why were they fortifying it? It's because
00:09:59
Speaker
the Vikings were literally just up the road in Northamptonshire.
Managing Historical Sites
00:10:03
Speaker
So this literally, Milton Keynes was world west territory, you know, I can imagine the Saxons and the Vikings skirmishing over the great ooze just literally just over from where the office is now. So yeah, it's little things like that, you know, it was they were living, they were working the land, it was sustainable, sustenance living, but then they needed to build themselves a bloomin' great moat in case the Vikings sent down a raiding party.
00:10:27
Speaker
A bit of a sideline there, but anyway, yes. My other question is around going into the training side. I completely agree with you on the interest and engagement with it.
00:10:42
Speaker
How do you know, because there are so many pathways, how do you know the survey evaluation route is the right one? That's a tricky one. That really is a tricky one. We do get people who phone us up and ask about
00:10:59
Speaker
construction often so quite we get quite a few people asking about quantity surveying because it's you know related to construction. I think the thing to do and I have had lots of conversations with people about this but people have thought I like what you do but I'm not quite sure it's right for me because, give
Advice for Aspiring Surveyors
00:11:18
Speaker
us a ring.
00:11:18
Speaker
and we can always talk through what you will actually learn so that you can make a judgment about how you will apply that and how that sort of fits with what your sort of kind of ambition is. A really classic example is people who work more in a kind of more of a rural environment and they're never clear if they want to be rural surveyors and valuers or whether they want to go down the residential route.
00:11:43
Speaker
And, you know, I've had loads of conversations with people along those sorts of lines. And some have joined the course because they've gone, actually, that would be a way forward. And some have gone off and inquired about courses at places like SARS, et cetera. So it is a tricky one, but I would always say, give us a ring. You can speak to colleagues here who have these conversations or people can always speak to me. I'll talk to the cows, come home about it. So, yeah.
00:12:08
Speaker
But it's a really good question. How do you know why would I do this and not, you know, off more general real estate stuff? And yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah, give us a ring. That's fair enough. Yeah, I agree with that. And then I suppose the other things and what are the what the challenges people might face in the process that they might not think about that they can prepare better for? Like one thing we see come up a lot is
00:12:36
Speaker
I suppose the questions around shadowing, for example, and getting that contact time, is there things people can do to prepare in advance?
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think the best thing you can do if you're thinking about this is put feelers out and find a surveyor in your area who is already working.
Preparing for Surveying Education
00:13:01
Speaker
And one of the things, and this is how I joined the profession, donkeys ago, one of the things you could do is ask if you could go out with them before you even commit to the course.
00:13:10
Speaker
because if you're alongside them and they're talking to you about what they're doing and why they're doing it, and if you can relate to that and think, this is interesting, then it helps validate your decision. But if you're thinking, I couldn't do this every day, then you know it's not for you. So there's definitely put feelers out. When we started, people didn't know we existed. We were not established, obviously, and we were a bit of an unknown quantity. But now,
00:13:40
Speaker
But now we've got, you know, we've been going eight, nine years doing this. We've got graduates everywhere and we've got firms that have employed graduates. You know, it's we're so much better known and it's likely it's possible that you could be speaking to a local surveyor and they could be one of our graduates from a few years ago. So I would say that would be a really good way to kind of begin to put feelers out. But the other thing I would say is
00:14:07
Speaker
Be realistic about the amount of time it's going to take you. It is a commitment. And so what you need to do if you're thinking about it is sit down with a partner, with your family, your friends, whatever, and say, I am going to do this. It will mean I will make some sacrifices.
00:14:26
Speaker
So, you know, please do not be disappointed if I say I'm not coming to the family barbecue because I need to spend some time doing some work, doing some studying, whatever it may be, and just getting buy-in from family and friends so that they don't sort of put external pressures on you. Yeah, I think that's a good point because you have to have your support there as well in order to get through.
00:14:52
Speaker
How long does it take typically? Is it around two years? Is that right? We promote it as a two year course. The first 13, 14 months are sort of in a much more structured training environment where you'll be told what to do and given the timetable to do it. And then following on from that,
00:15:15
Speaker
there is the assessment process, which is very much driven by the learner in terms of their own timetable. And we have had people finish that last bit quicker than two years, but for the most part, I think the average is something like 26, 27 months at the moment from start right through to finish. So yeah, allow two years.
00:15:44
Speaker
Awesome and then I think that my final question from my side actually just touching back on the shadowing part is and you may not know the answer to this but one thing I see come up a fair bit is people asking for shadowing and then maybe surveying surveyors worrying about the implications I don't know around GDPR or you know legally. Yeah.
Insurance and GDPR Concerns for Surveyors
00:16:05
Speaker
Is it an actual concern that they should have or?
00:16:08
Speaker
So, first of all, if people are on the course and want to shadow, then we will provide public liability. So, for individual firms, you know, if they say, oh, I'm a bit worried, suppose you can break them in vase, so long as we know, so long as the learner and the firm contact us at, you know, Joblog Surveyors Limited says we are mentoring Jim the learner or Sally the learner or whoever,
00:16:35
Speaker
As long as we just know we've got a record then you're covered under our public liability and we have that kind of covered. And for the most part actually that's not an issue because most firms will have a public liability insurance that covers not just formal employees but people working under the auspices of that firm but we have put that in place for several people.
00:17:00
Speaker
GDPR, we hear that sometimes, well we used to hear that from the likes of the corporates around sort of information that you might hear about a customer. But in reality, while we heard about it, this is going back like eight years, it's not been an issue lately and I think
00:17:26
Speaker
I think the thing is that the learner isn't interested in Mrs. McGinn's, the customer. They're not interested in where they are now. They're not interested in what level of lending they may or may not be exposing themselves to. They're not interested in any of that. They just want to go to the property.
00:17:42
Speaker
And I think, actually, the way a lot of instructions, even in a corporate world, are given now, a lot of the valuers won't necessarily have any personal information about their customer because that's been filtered through a booking system. They might know the potential lender, they might know how much a mortgage is, and they might know the name of the customer, but that's it. And if it's Mrs. Smith, it could be any Mrs. Smith.
00:18:10
Speaker
It hasn't really been an issue for a long time that hasn't been raised. So I think it's interesting you ask because I think it's a non-problem. I can see why people get concerned about it, but I don't think in practical terms it is an issue at all. Because as I say, the learners just want to know about the bricks and mortar of what they're going to look at. That makes sense and that's what my
00:18:39
Speaker
My thoughts would have been, it's good to hear that it's something that people can go and do safely and not, particularly the insurance aspects. Yeah, absolutely. And we completely get that if you're a one man band, you may not have the public liability cover for anybody other than yourself. Again, completely get it. That's more than fair enough, more than reasonable. You just let us know. You and the learner just let us know. And then as long as we've got that covered, then in the event that anything should happen, we've got our own policy we can draw down on.
00:19:08
Speaker
And nobody's ever broken a Ming vase, by the way. Just saying. Such words. Yeah, somebody will this afternoon just because I said it. Yeah, anyway. It reminds me of a story not too far from here where someone did a house clearance and they found that it might have been a Ming vase or a particular vase that went for millions in auction.
00:19:32
Speaker
So whoever turned down the house clearance was very unlucky. Oh, there's cash in the attic thing, you know, somebody or that lovely moment of, you know, I paid the Antiques Roadshow, you know, I paid for this. It was £2.50 at a car boot sale. And you're telling me it's by Picasso and it's worth £250 million or whatever. Yeah. We all dream. We all dream.
00:19:59
Speaker
Awesome. Well, there's some really good insights there and I think we'll move on to topic two.