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Episode 38 - Part 1: Exploring New Building Materials and Decarbonisation in Construction with Vignesh Daas
38 Plays1 year ago
In this week's episode of SurveyBooker Sessions, host Matt Nally is joined by Vignesh Daas to delve into the world of building materials and the efforts to decarbonize the construction industry.
The conversation covers a broad range of topics including the need for new materials, the challenges of adopting such innovations, and current efforts in venture building to promote sustainability.
Key points discussed include:
1. The importance of finding sustainable alternatives to traditional building materials to handle future growth and infrastructure needs.
2. The concept of self-healing concrete and other innovative materials aiming to reduce carbon emissions.
3. The role of waste valorization and the use of by-products from other industries in construction.
4. The impact of energy efficiency on construction-related carbon emissions.
5. The significance of retrofitting existing production plants with carbon capture technology.
00:00 Introduction to SurveyBooker Sessions
00:15 Guest Introduction: Vignesh Daas on Decarbonising Property
01:02 Key Topics Overview
01:35 The Need for New Building Materials
03:01 Innovations in Concrete and Other Materials
04:57 Challenges in Adoption and Industry Resistance
13:32 The Role of Safety and Practical Implementation
16:06 Exploring Specific New Materials
16:44 Waste Valorization and By-Products
20:32 Bio-Based Technologies and Nature-Based Designs
22:25 Carbon Capture and Storage
24:36 Top Materials to Watch
26:23 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Decarbonizing Built Environment
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host Matt Nally, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for survey surveyors. In this week's episode, we have Vignesh Das, who's come to join us to talk about building materials and decarbonizing properties. So thank you very much for coming on.
00:00:23
Speaker
Thanks, Matt. Thanks for the invite. So we work in in and the field of decarbonisation of the built environment. Our focus is is to make sure that heavy industries, which are hard to abate carbon, can reduce their carbon and new innovations can be plugged into the supply chain through startups and through universities and research.
Funding and Market Introduction of Innovations
00:00:42
Speaker
We we look to fund um some of these innovations through grants and through applying our own Indian investments. But also we're now looking into venture building, which is putting together talented people in in the climate tech and built environment space to to accelerate these innovations to to market. Yeah, it sounds really interesting. And um I think we're going to touch for everyone that's listening on, I suppose, three key areas for for this episode. Firstly, this this ah first topic will cover new materials that come into market. And I think there's some really interesting stuff that I hadn't heard about before.
00:01:15
Speaker
um Then there's, I suppose, the challenges in adopting those materials, um you know, and what's stopping people from from putting those into place. That's topic two. um And then finally, we'll look at sort of what's going on, as you mentioned, around venture building to to support the decarbonisation.
Need for New Building Materials and Sustainable Growth
00:01:30
Speaker
So um that ah should be a very interesting episode across the three parts. Yeah, it's actually on topic one, the new materials coming to market. um ah suppose Why do we need to look at new materials, do you think? um Like what's wrong with what we've already got?
00:01:45
Speaker
ah Matt, first of all, I mean, this is a key area for building, um um because we, I mean, there are some really mad figures out there about someone said about building New York cities like loads of New York cities every, every two years or something like that I don't know what that phrase exactly is. but One thing is for sure, if you look around us, we we have an aging infrastructure in in Europe and and in the US, but also the global south is is is developing infrastructure as at ah at ah at a rapid rate. and But like everything else,
00:02:19
Speaker
we These resources are not infinite, they're not renewable. So we will run out of water, sand, stones um and all of those things. and So yeah, it' just it's just about being mindful and sustainable of how we build and and where can we reuse and where can we go circular.
00:02:39
Speaker
So this is why finding alternatives to existing building materials is is incredibly important.
Innovations in Building Materials: Self-Healing Concrete
00:02:44
Speaker
um If we are to still see growth in the next 50, 75 years, it would be critical, and not only from a net zero perspective, but only from like ah supply and demand, and only from and also from um a carbon and and and and cost perspective as well. and So while we're heavily reliant on things like concrete, which is a great product, um there's numerous types of concrete.
00:03:09
Speaker
I mean, when I started my research journey 12 years ago, I was looking into low carbon concrete. And now that's something that has become almost a norm. But still, there's quite many um aspects to it. So people really don't understand how to how to specify it and they also quite find it quite difficult as in what numbers, what embodied carbon numbers are are deemed as low carbon and what solutions are there. There's a lot of green washing going on around as well so you know old product in a new package kind of thing as well.
00:03:41
Speaker
So this is why it's quite critical for you know the industry and and so and and for innovators to work together and kind of quash those things from from the get-go and talk about what are the ah cool innovations. I mean, for example, we we worked with self-healing concrete almost like five years ago. um it's ah It's a bacteria-based fine healing additive, which you chuck. It's a powder, smells like mocha. You chuck it into concrete and and it will help heal the concrete cracks even and when there's a crack.
00:04:12
Speaker
So back then people thought it's science fiction and um right now it's a commercially available product.
Construction Emissions and Venture Capital Challenges
00:04:18
Speaker
So there were lessons learned from from that and it led us to look into more such um kind of innovations out there, one of them like bio-based binder, like biozurog, you've got carbon and CCUS based products, you've got concrete for change.
00:04:36
Speaker
um You've got electric arc furnace, residual powder, which is again companies like SamVision, Cambridge Electric Cement. So there's multiple new innovations coming into this space, which, you know, building how we are right now will change in the next five years, if not earlier. and and Some of these innovations are already plugged into this supply chain.
00:04:57
Speaker
And it's a matter of you know people like you and I talking about these things on on podcasts so that civil engineers and structural designers are aware that these cool elevations exist out there.
00:05:09
Speaker
Oh, definitely. I think one of the stats that we looked at before before recording this was ah the the construction industry is responsible for 37% and I haven't got the um the reference for this, but 37% of greenhouse gas emissions. um And we'll come on to venture building later, but only 5% of global venture capital see is um directed towards that.
00:05:29
Speaker
the You've mentioned like some new materials which sound really interesting, I think but potentially in a moment we can start to look in a bit more detail at what those five things are, but um how do they actually reduce the the sort of carbon impact? Is it that they're more efficient to ah construct within the first place or they're more greener to extract and and use or is it that they like the self-healing concrete example um it it means you don't have to replace stuff ah replace concrete as quickly therefore it sort of has a longer lifespan for example. Do they all operate in very different ways in reducing and sort of the carbon impact?
00:06:11
Speaker
Sure. um I mean, the stat that you mentioned is is from United Nations report on the environment. and Oh, yes. And and that's ah that's a critical stat that that we use in in almost all of our literature because, you know, for an industry that amounts to that much um carbon emissions of and of the whole world, ah we we do not put that much time and money into it to do actually go and and help it improve.
Efficient Design and Low-Carbon Material Solutions
00:06:41
Speaker
It's easy to blame. It's hard to solve. um and One key aspect of what you've mentioned is is cement. and Cement is a very heavy carbon emitter only because you know you burn limestone at a very high temperature in order to produce cement. so
00:06:56
Speaker
The cement product product in itself is an amazing product. It's been used for, I mean, since the Romans. as So it's hard to replace something that's been used for so long and has been proven as ah to be such a good product. It's a matter of how do you produce it where it doesn't cost the planet that much environmentally. um So there are innovations out there. And what you've just mentioned is I think there's a common consensus in the industry now. so There's no one solution. There's no one ah let's replace cement or let's replace steel, which are high carbon emitters. It's about how to design them efficiently, how to apply them efficiently. So do you need a SAM1 cement, which is a high grade cement that you use for you know residential um tall buildings or for infrastructure, or can you replace it with
00:07:45
Speaker
I don't know, a bacteria-based binder or electric arc furnace lag um in in pavement tiles, or um to start with, right? Eventually, we can then prove the case studies and bring them on to um structural elements. So there's that transition. That transition needs to happen.
00:08:02
Speaker
layer byla We can't just, I mean, there's always the danger of what we saw in ASE in schools, right? All of a sudden, that in the 70s or 80s, they were all, you know, specified everywhere and and it it it didn't work out that well. um So for that, you know, innovation has its own journey. For example, I can talk about self-healing concrete.
00:08:22
Speaker
um And when we brought it to the yeah UK, it it was a spinoff from Delta University in the Netherlands. When we brought it to the yeah UK, we had to prove that it's non-toxic. We had to get it insured. We had to prove that you know the bacteria only works when it when there's a crack in the concrete and when the water gets in touch with the capsules. So we had to prove all of that, which you know it does take time.
00:08:46
Speaker
um ah However, there are early adopters out there. There are and infrastructure agencies who are keen on on getting these things on board. I mean, you can now go and see how this product is used in breakwaters in Cornwall.
00:09:00
Speaker
And it's helping marine flora and fauna to, to grow on these concrete products. So, you know, we, yeah, we, we, we, we utilize the approach of greening the gray. Concrete doesn't always need to be, you know, gray. It can be very, very, very useful. And it's, it's just finding ways of how to, how to make it useful. It's the same with, um, um, with, with other embodied carbon based products. Um, I think the challenge is.
00:09:28
Speaker
finding the gaps in the supply chain, um plugging supplementing the cloud gaps. And I do not agree with the term disruption. you know The moment a startup or an innovator comes and says, it's a disruptive product, um it's a bit of an orange flag. I wouldn't call it a red flag. I'd call it an orange flag. Because if it's disruptive, how do you stop a multi-trillion pound industry on the planet, which is used to its ways? Or do you come and augment it with your product and give them another route to market give them.
00:10:00
Speaker
another way to sustainability and give them another way of specifying something different, which would work out for for everybody.
Energy Storage and Efficiency Innovations
00:10:07
Speaker
So it's almost like, you know, if you've got your ah bread aisle, do you want to still have the same bread every day? Or are you going to go and look at different alternatives that might be, you know, a morning tea breakfast bread or something different? But it does give you the option. I think we are looking for more options rather than tech that will stop what is already happening. I think we're looking for more options for, you know, the market is so big, the need is so big, you know, we're not only building and bridges, we're building bridges, retaining walls, roads, pavements, you mentioned residential earlier, yeah you know, you've got bricks, ah you've got insulation, there are
00:10:48
Speaker
materials out there, which are replacing plastic insulation with mycelium, which is a mushroom based product. um So yeah, plenty, plenty out there, but it's about finding the place of the innovation in the in the supply chain.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yes, there's a lot of interesting stuff to pick up on there. I think one of the ones around disrupting, you're right. it's um you're You're not going to persuade ah industries that have got processes in place and machinery in place and yeah tools or whatever it might be, training, um to completely change everything they do. It needs to be a supporter or a supplement or anything rather than, you know, tears everything apart. and You're going to get more more engagement with whatever it is, if it's a material attack product or whatever.
00:11:28
Speaker
I suppose with with these new materials, how much opportunity do they have to reduce that 37% of the sort construction ah industry sort of impact? yeah how How much comes from the material aspect? How much is um you know machinery and power used on site um and all that type of stuff? do we Do we know that type of split at all?
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, to give you a bit of a broader idea about that, I mean, cement and concrete, I mean, they're probably 80% of that 37%. So eight I mean, age of the entire world is is about 25% of that 37%, isn't it? So you look at those numbers, and you go, okay, there's a lot of innovations going into that one sector.
00:12:13
Speaker
um But you've the the other half, I would say, would go into energy. Like you've mentioned, energy on-site, energy usage. We started looking into companies with new energy storage methods. you know um People almost always focus on, oh, we haven't got energy. We've got plenty of energy. We just don't use it um as efficiently as as we can. um so Which is why there's price fluctuations, which is why there's there's issues.
00:12:38
Speaker
um I mean, um the other other week we were talking to a company which can increase the life of mining vehicles, you know, those large and mining vehicles, they can increase the life of the battery by 50%. That's a massive change, you know, with a tiny innovation coming up for one of those vehicles.
00:12:57
Speaker
So you don't have to use diesel, you don't have to use fossil fuels, you can use renewable energy batteries and and you can you can even increase that battery life. So there's there's the layered approach that we've been looking at, that 37% is not just, you know there's no one solution for it, there's no let's replace cement and it will all be good or let's replace all diesel generators with with with um batteries and that will be all good. So all of these innovations.
00:13:24
Speaker
as like with anything new you've got to try it um and then you've got to figure out where it fits into the problem solving matrix. um Another key aspect I think we are different as an industry to you know to FinTech or to something like that is we are a safety driven industry. um Safety is paramount. and we we You ask any engineer, any surveyor in this in this industry, we are all driven by by safety. um If we don't know how safe the material of the process is, it probably won't be used because you know there's no room for error.
Sustainable Alternatives: Waste Valorisation and Bio-Based Technologies
00:14:03
Speaker
I've heard many people who pivot from FinTech and move into construction tech and they feel like they know how this market will work, um which is which is a fair assumption on paper.
00:14:14
Speaker
But when you go into practical challenges, it will be about, yes, your product is great, um but we would need this to be proven on a construction site, which, as you know, doesn't have that much space in this business project management schedule. You've got to fit it into that. You've got to train people while they're working on site.
00:14:34
Speaker
So there are those challenges and to implement an innovation into that project management cycle is is incredibly hard um without compromising safety. So while construction gets a lot of stick for being, oh, you're risk averse, ah rightly so, because a civil engineer or a structural engineer or a quantitative surveyor makes a mistake,
00:14:55
Speaker
it's it's probably not going to end up well. So um yeah, let's not break things and try again. Let's just be careful about how we do it. and It's about finding where where exactly in in that project management can be fit in a tiny bit of innovation and show the benefits so that you know the industry can gain confidence from those trials. Equally, you know pilot trials are are not an actual business case. Pilot trials are meant to give you and an opportunity, a window to to showcase your innovation. So take it if you get one. So yeah, it's a very good point that you've raised that it's easy to label the an industry as risk averse, ah you know you know, not trying anything out. um But as you say, actually, when you when you measure the consequence of um not that, that ah yeah risk of of trying something out going wrong, it can be quite catastrophic, you know, we end up with the next ah rat concrete, um but because we've just
00:15:52
Speaker
you know, taking a punt to see what might happen. um That's also not going to be a good label on the other side. So it's, um yeah, and you're playing with lives and stuff then. So yeah, it's it's a very interesting um perspective on on and looking at that type of label, I think. I think my final um sort of question, I suppose, around this topic before
Reducing Carbon Footprint in Steel Production
00:16:11
Speaker
we move on to topic two. Is it possible to go through the different materials um just in a tiny bit more detail, just explain what what they are? So for example, like what is waste valorization and and sort of where does it get used? And same for like composite materials and bits and pieces.
00:16:30
Speaker
Of course. and i mean it's ah It's a massive topic. oh yeah yeah it's ah You go into building materials, everything around you is made of. I can see bricks right behind you. so you know there's There's always something that we know that we have used. um Waste valorisation is quite interesting. It's not a new concept. It's been around for ages.
00:16:50
Speaker
um it's a it's using i mean Waste is probably not the right term anymore. It's using by-products from other industries. as a feeder product in in another one. So I think you can take, for example, the most common one that you'd hear in um in in the construction industry is is blast furnace slag, so from steel manufacturing.
00:17:16
Speaker
um So you can take that residue powder from steel manufacturing and you can it's got cementitious properties, so you can replace cement partially with this powder. So essentially you don't have to go, so let's say we replace 100 kilograms of of cement with this powder, which is already and ah a byproduct of another industry, we don't have to go and and and and mine and burn 100 kilograms of limestone or whatever the the required amount is.
00:17:43
Speaker
So that helps save that amount of nature and and just uses the waste from this industry into the into the other one. So that's just one example. um um And there's multiple examples of that. There's coal, there's steel, there's biomass, and even glass, for example, right? Or wind turbine blades, et cetera. So you can take multiple um um byproducts from different industries. I mean wastewater, sludge. There's incredible amount of work. But what I like about this topic is is you know someone really seen in the industry always says, if you come to me with a solution that can help take away 4,000 tons of something,
00:18:26
Speaker
It's not really useful. If you can say to me that you're going to take four million tons of it, then it's useful because the processes are are in such a way that small incremental and disruption is actually a problem because you're changing your day-to-day operation to trial something which is not proven to to then be to be more sustainable, which in essence is actually not that sustainable because you've tinkered and tailored and and and changed methods of of operations. So, you know, embodied carbon might be less, but operational carbon will be.
00:19:02
Speaker
So once the theory is proven that this waste is worth 4 million tonnes or 40 million tonnes or something like that, um then you're very much welcome to go and and and and try all that. I mean, something new that I am really excited about these days is ah is electric arc furnaces. um And they have their own and new um slag forming, right? And there are companies out there. I mean, there's one we're working with now called SamVision. They're a Swedish starter.
00:19:30
Speaker
um and working with Breakthrough Energy Ventures, which is funded by Bill Gates. It's their venture. It's Microsoft's venture capital fund, if I'm not wrong. But yeah, are definitely funded by Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and and all of those guys. And and they are looking into into this area and you know you can take away new electric arc furnaces which are a new method of manufacturing greener steel and you can again use that product into into cement replacement or partial cement replacement. So it's a great way of of utilizing um different products into into the supply chain of of another industry. I mean you must have heard about biochar for example right?
00:20:11
Speaker
Biochar, again, is from feedstock and biogas and all of that. And you can use that for soil stabilization. You can use that for um um in in concrete. um So there's a company called EcoLock in Germany who do some of that. So, yeah, this topic is is is incredible because, I mean, to be fair, it's my background, so I get excited about it.
Bio-Based Concrete Technologies
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:32
Speaker
And then um is that a similar thing that feeds into sort of like the bio-based technologies and nature-based designs and stuff like that? Are they sort of fairly interlinked the different types of materials? They are, but equally, you know, the biotech-based product, again, I'm really passionate about those because ah starting off with self-healing, that's where we looked at, um um um you know, bacteria doing incredible work.
00:20:57
Speaker
Then again, you know, last year ah we worked with BioZero. They are a startup who are incredibly exciting because they can grow concrete, right? They can literally grow concrete. and It's a bacteria-based binder which reacts with water and and and stones and whatever else, and it will just, you won't need any cement. You can you can literally bind, different so you can use it anywhere on the planet, right? you can You can go to Japan and you can use their local products and you can bind it all together with this bacteria.
00:21:26
Speaker
So you don't need to go and mine limestone and cement at all. um so you know And you can make this in Mars maybe, or or sort of the scope is incredible. the the The idea behind is incredible. So it els I don't know if you're a Mission Impossible fan, but it always reminds me of Mission Impossible too, when they used to grow stuff in the lab in Australia. So I get really excited about those kind of things.
00:21:50
Speaker
So yeah I think i think that's that's kind of the future um and and that's where it's heading. So as civil engineers and surveyors, we we need to look at those those aspects and see where they're going and and keep a tab on on on their testing and and and see how we can incorporate those in, I don't know, in tiles internally or in facades and things like that, which don aren't necessarily structural. And if these things can go past fire regulations and things like that, improve their safety,
00:22:19
Speaker
I mean, theyre they're incredible innovations to to stick into an essential building or a commercial building.
Future of Construction: Carbon Capture and Nature-Inspired Designs
00:22:25
Speaker
Definitely, definitely. And my my final question then around the the types of materials coming. ah Carbon capture and storage. Is that potentially, maybe this is an unfair a comment or wrap around it, but um is it more of a reactive um solution rather than a ah proactive? You know, the other ones where we're ah you know looking to reduce carbon emissions by changing the types of materials we're using, is that more just a very reactive solution?
00:22:49
Speaker
um rather than sort of rather than changing the inputs, we're just sort of trying to store up the output. I think it's a it's a very much required um innovation almost. So it depends on the application of it. So for example, if you're a large cement manufacturer,
00:23:07
Speaker
and and And you can retrofit your plant with a piece of equipment from a startup or ah or or or a researcher. And that piece of equipment allows you to lower your emissions by any percent, let's say. I'm even in the favor of 5%, right? um If it lowers your emissions by 5%, your production is is much more efficient and lower carbon. um And I think that's where the innovation starts, really. um And I think it's incredibly important that that's something like that happens. and credit to semantic companies. They're all doing it um um and therere a lot of them are doing it successfully. There's a peak district cluster if your viewers might be interested um in that. There's a bunch of c semantic companies trying to figure out how to incorporate this tech into their supply chain.
00:23:56
Speaker
um And I think there are, again, some someone like some vision, they've got their own technology which can be retrofitted onto existing cement plants or electric arc furnaces to then make it further lower carbon and and produce materials based on on that technology. So it's an exciting space. But if you did say that you're going to capture carbon from the air and big build big machines and all of that,
00:24:17
Speaker
I don't think a lot of people would be very very keen on that because it's high capex and low output. Might as well just plant some trees that that might do the trick a bit better.
Top Innovative Materials in Construction
00:24:26
Speaker
i know I'm not an expert in that space, but retrofitting cement plants and and some building material plants with carbon capture technology is is probably a great way forward. Interesting. i suppose um I suppose before we wrap up this topic and move on to sort of the challenges of adopting new new materials, if you have you got, say, two three two or three um sort of top materials that you think are worth looking into as a as a surveyor or someone in the construction industry. that ah I'm guessing Selfie and Concrete would be one of them because it's a very interesting one to read about when I was looking at it. Have you got two or three that you think if you're going to go and learn about some materials have a look at these ones?
00:25:01
Speaker
Sure. I mean, um one thing I know is getting quite popular is Limestone Finds. It's an incremental um product. It's been around for ages. um But also electric arc furnace slag, because that will be the next thing, because all the cement steel plants are being moved towards that. So how do you incorporate that? And what are the embodied carbon values? And what's the price point? Who are the suppliers? That will be an interesting one.
00:25:28
Speaker
something as common or as simple as basalt reinforcement because basalt reinforcement instead of steel can be used in many applications and funnily enough basalt is the same price or cheaper sometimes as as compared to steel and it's lighter um so you know contractors on site or small residential contractors they should be looking at that they should be looking at making pave pavements and and and tiles and paving tiles and stuff like that with with these kind of innovations, which might allow them to build quicker or more efficiently, less less time on site, which means but greater safety as well. So smaller incremental um innovations, rather than you know going into absolutely disruptive innovations immediately, might it might allow um you know contractors and designers to kind of figure out how do you incorporate innovation into your day-to-day project management schedule and your supply chain.
00:26:22
Speaker
Definitely. And it's and it's ah it's about all the all the small all the different parts adding up together to to create an impact rather than just one yeah know silver bullet. So um and that's been really interesting. So I think if you enjoyed listening to the new materials coming to market, join us for part two where we're looking at the challenges of adopting them.