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Episode 35 - Part 2: Comprehensive Insights into Internal Fire Safety with Jay Ridings
64 Plays1 year ago
Join Matt Nally and Jay Ridlings from TFT Consultants in part 2 as they delve into the intricacies of internal fire safety. From fire risk assessments to the significance of documentation, this episode is packed with expert insights you won't want to miss. 🔥🏢
📌 Key Takeaways:
- Importance of documentation and fire strategies.
- Evolution of fire safety legislation.
- Typical issues faced during fire assessments.
- Challenges in assessing both older and newer buildings.
- Effective risk management methodologies like PAS 9980.
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Transcript
Introduction to Fire Safety Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to part two of Fire Safety with Jay Ridings from TFT t
Internal vs. External Fire Safety
00:00:05
Speaker
Consultants. um So yeah, internal fire safety, I suppose the opposite of of external fire safety and um probably gets less airtime. There's obviously been a lot that we mentioned that have been discussed around cladding. um I think there's there's lots of things I can think of in my mind that are probably more basic things like, you know, it's quite easy to walk around the supermarket and you see that a pallet's been coming into place in the fire say if fire exit,
00:00:28
Speaker
ah because it's out the way of of the the main
Assessing Fire Risks in Buildings
00:00:31
Speaker
aisle. So there's those types of basic things, but I imagine there's a hell of a lot more to it um with, you know, firebreaks and party walls and ah yeah all sorts of different things. um I suppose as a starting point, should we look at the, or discuss what the the risk assessment process that you follow when you're going into a building to look at um what type of things are right and wrong and and how that ties between the internals and externals. So I imagine it's all, you have to look at, I guess as a whole,
00:00:58
Speaker
um so Is that a good place to start? yeah Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a few different um and key points to cover here. One is, um I mentioned it before, the importance of documentation. so when we When we come to a property, we always want to see a fire risk assessment. In fact, I'll just jump back one step actually. We always want to see a fire strategy ideally for a building, um which sets out ah you know how is fire safety um addressed in in that building both internally and externally in terms of the external walls and how they tie together. So that's really important.
Regulatory Framework and Fire Safety Act 2005
00:01:41
Speaker
Then we want to look at the fire risk assessment for thee the building, which is is needed in accordance with um with um legislation going back to 2005, I think. And before that, there were fire certificates, and it was it was done slightly differently. But in 2005, the regulatory reform um Fire Safety Act 2005, or words might be in a slightly different order, but that came in.
00:02:11
Speaker
And it required a duty holder to carry out a fire risk assessment of of of of a building. So like you said, when you're looking at that fire risk assessment, you're looking at things, as you mentioned, like combustible materials being stored, um escape routes being blocked. And so all of that stuff is is important, emergency lighting, um all all of that good stuff.
Impact of Grenfell on Fire Safety Legislation
00:02:34
Speaker
say So you got that. Then obviously, more recently, we then had um Grenfell, June 2017. And then legislation has changed subsequent to that. So you've got a new fire safety act that's come in. um And what what's what's then been a requirement from then is for residential property to then actually consider the risk associated with the external walls as part of the internal um fire risk assessment.
00:03:09
Speaker
Okay. So it's great you can see it's quite it's it's quite complicated. but Oh, definitely. I see why they've done that. Obviously, the external clouding issue was causing the fire then to spread up and in, in a way you wouldn't expect normally. Exactly. exactly yeah and and And obviously, it's quite very impactful in terms of the fire safety of the
PAS9980 Methodology for Fire Risk Assessment
00:03:28
Speaker
building. And the important point is that fire safety is, again, I'll use this term word again, interrelated. So it's all in it's all interconnected.
00:03:37
Speaker
So what fire engineers tend to do is they use a PAS9980 methodology um appraising the fire risks um relating to the external walls and that that assessment of the external walls looks at the building holistically and considers the internal fire safety provisions. So, you know, how many escape routes are there? um Is there a sprinkler system in place? What's the fire alarm system? Is there mechanical ventilation and um and and opening vents, letting smoke out? How does it all work? So that is specifically
00:04:15
Speaker
but The PAS9980 methodology is specifically for blocks of flats but what we do see is it it it tends to be applied to commercial buildings as well because it's a useful methodology just generally for assessing risk and whether external walls are tolerable.
Focus on Residential Buildings and Sleeping Risks
00:04:38
Speaker
So that fire engineers tend to use that not just as part of residential accommodation and assessing the the fire risk assessment, but it's used more generally where there are concerns with the external walls. Interesting. Okay. And is that because on other buildings that there isn't the same
00:04:58
Speaker
ah level of requirement to understand the fire risk elsewhere and and and so people are trying to be more mindful of it by using that methodology. re Residential property where you've got sleeping risk is always has always been the focus. That's what that's what Grenfell was. that Those are the higher highest risk um of buildings that there are. So that has been the focus. but I mean, I'm not sure whether this is just a to manage it, to keep the problem manageable, solvable in the first instance. And I'm sure we'll come on to the future um and and what will happen there. But you know that's where the focus has been. If you start looking at commercial buildings, well, you may not have
00:05:49
Speaker
sleeping risk, people aren't sleeping there. So that there are always people there active around spotting, protecting arguably spotting the danger. You also then look at um buildings like hotels.
00:06:01
Speaker
which are excluded um from the high risk buildings regulations. um those Those are buildings where you've got 24 hour security and management typically. So you haven't just got a building where everyone's asleep and no one's gonna be
Common Fire Safety Challenges
00:06:19
Speaker
spotting problems. So i they they're they're viewed as as as lower risk and and it doesn't you you don't have the same requirements currently for those buildings.
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I was just funny, who as you said it, I was like, that's a bit odd. And then as ah just as you're about came on to saying why, I figured obviously you've got yeah know the the concierge downstairs or reception desk or whatever it might be. And there's people yes people monitoring what's going on. um I suppose from from your experience of of doing different risk assessments, what are the the biggest issues that come up with it or the common issues that come up when you when you're looking at building? And has it has it changed over time?
00:06:56
Speaker
Or is it does it tend to be the same thing over and over? So there's two parts to this, i'd I'd say, which are of interest. One is that a lot of the fire risk assessments that we see often actually don't pick up the biggest issues. And I think this probably ties into the cultural point that we picked up on before. This kind of legislative um compliance type world yeah um may not um Maybe it's given slight lip service. I might i might be getting into trouble for for saying that. But you know you need to you need to have a competent person undertaking a fire risk assessment. And and and it's ah it's a slight check box, tick box exercise, I think. And and so you a lot of the time you're seeing fire risk assessments that
00:07:48
Speaker
that they may pick up some of the easy stuff, but maybe they don't pick up some of the more complicated points.
Maintenance Challenges in Large Buildings
00:07:55
Speaker
So there are but there are there are there are points that are pretty much always going to come up on buildings. So you know you're always going to have wear and tear.
00:08:08
Speaker
impact damage you know to fire doors, smoke seals or instrument strips peeling away, iron mungry being changed to doors and maybe you know is is that adequate? Is that is that door set then a fire rated door set? You're going to have tenants coming in and out of buildings doing alterations.
00:08:27
Speaker
going through compartment walls maybe not putting back fire stopping or putting in fire stopping as they're required so those are the type of issues that you always see and I think it's getting better. It is getting better. But if you think of a 50,000 square foot office, 100,000 square foot office, or a 250 bedroom hotel, there is a lot going on in those buildings. I don't know if you've ever been back of house in a hotel, but they um they're not they don't look as good as the front areas.
00:09:01
Speaker
and And I imagine for those businesses it's a difficult challenge to maintain all areas, including the ones that are non-income generating. It's it's a challenge to keep those up to speed. So you you typically see problems with those areas.
00:09:19
Speaker
And maybe some of these issues, these fire safety issues, which in isolation are quite small but cumulatively become quite large, they're not always they they tend to be present and are not always rectified um um immediately or or
Complexities in Fire Safety Measures
00:09:37
Speaker
ever.
00:09:37
Speaker
um But I think internally as well, a bit like external wall systems, it can be quite complicated. You can get more subtle, complicated shortfalls. And I'll just quickly say an example of two. One is compartmentation of ah walls and um um whether whether where the walls and doors a fire resisting to the two to the required levels in the required places. And that's why I mentioned fire strategy reports. How do you know that that building provides the fire resistance and the protection and the compartmentation that it was designed to provide? It's not always obvious. And I've been on a lot of surveys
00:10:33
Speaker
And i've I've dealt with at TFT, working with colleagues and wider teams, a lot of instances where you could turn up to a building and think, well, someone's obviously built this and it's all okay, but that's not that's not the case. And that goes back to we talked about the external walls and cavity barriers not being fitted either at all or adequately, that's a common theme.
00:10:59
Speaker
then looking at compartmentation, has that compartmentation been properly designed and and constructed? Often, um it hasn't. and And a lot of projects, when they're doing the projects correctly,
00:11:12
Speaker
um they um they really need to go into the detail of is that is that fire strategy and is the fire stopping, for example, around services, is that designed correctly?
00:11:26
Speaker
You know, if you've got however many cables going through or if you've got a cable tray or duct work or what conduit is that fire
Assessment of Building Fabric vs. Operational Issues
00:11:35
Speaker
stopping there? Has someone just come and done it or has an engineer from Hilti or Rockwell actually approved that design that that is actually going to last 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 90 minutes?
00:11:47
Speaker
yeah And then to say someone's just punched a hole through to put some new services in and just undermine it all. and Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. it's Exactly. So um it's it's ah it's a it's a it's a mixture of stuff that's quite complicated, with also stuff that's really crude, like a contractor just coming in and ripping through a wall, which has been thought about for, it's probably delayed a project by six months while the design's been finalised and someone's just come and burst through it. So is it yeah, it's it can be complicated.
00:12:19
Speaker
I love that. Yeah, I can imagine, and I can think of a few examples where someone's just come chuck chuck cut a massive section out, put something into patch it afterwards. And is it the same material and same ah same standards? How much of your ah review in the fire assessment focused purely on um the fabric of the building being correct and set up the spec and whether the specs right and so on and how much focuses on I suppose practical use because one of the biggest problems is going to be people, the users in the building, you know, we've got the fire doors in place, we've got, I don't know, what do you call it, the smoke detectors and someone's put something over the smoke detector or they've got the fire door wedged open because they want to breeze. How much does it focus on sort of
00:13:05
Speaker
incorrect incorrect use versus just being actually correct as long as people are using it in the right way. that That's a good that's a good um question. I mean, the the use of the building, I i tend to, and ah and hopefully I'm not getting myself into trouble here, I tend to be less concerned with that because it's an operational point.
00:13:26
Speaker
you know but we We work for lots of funds, lots of large investors and the focus here is what is the impact on on life safety. Obviously, we need we need to you know if you if you look at the TDD you know commercial building surveys guidance note, life safety is absolutely key and we're not going to walk away from a building that we think is an absolute absolute um hazard. um But if you're if you're looking at this you know from ah from a funds perspective and an investment perspective,
00:14:00
Speaker
the concerns of the complicated, costly issues such as replacing the cladding, um um 200 fire doors being incorrect, the fire stopping. And and and like I mentioned with the external cladding, internal fire stopping can be very costly to survey, to identify the remedial works and then implement the remedial works. You know, you can, you can often look at something and think, oh, well, that yeah that will cost a a few thousand. But actually, by the time you've got ah the right people there and you've looked at all the areas and you've done in in in some instances intrusive investigations, it can really quickly spiral out of control.
Challenges with Older Buildings
00:14:44
Speaker
So so that's the type of stuff that
00:14:47
Speaker
I tend to focus on um for you know from an investment perspective. The operational stuff, of course, it needs to be right and someone needs to fix it, but you'd expect that to be picked up by the property management team, by the fire risk assessor, and it's a more day-to-day maintenance issue rather than a fundamental problem with the building. Yeah, and you can't be you can't be trying to put every caveat is the wrong word, but sort of sort ah potential use case in the building. You've got to know that yes, it's been set up correctly for use and it's there not to be able to use it right. yeah This goes back to that point, Matt, when i I said you're only there for a day, a point in time.
00:15:25
Speaker
you know these are large complex buildings you can't you're you're not you're not you know surveying and noting every screw every cable you know you're you're identifying the high level principles really which which are impacting that building from a sort of condition and statutory perspective no that makes complete sense i spent my my My final question comes on to, I suppose, older building versus newer building. So where do you find the biggest challenges? Because it'd be easy to assume, and it might be the case, that older buildings are more likely to be non-compliant or have bigger issues on the basis that they're built before loads of more regular ah more modern regulations were brought in. And therefore, a newer building should be, in theory, quite easy to turn up to and go, yes, it says material X on on the sheet, and it looks like it's material X on the building.
00:16:19
Speaker
um Is that the case or actually is it, can it be just as complicated looking at a new build versus a 200 year old castle? I'm going quite extreme there on my examples. But is it, yeah, because I imagine you get a range of things, but.
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah, i I like that question and it it might be one that I can't absolutely nail. um the my my my My personal preference and I think your your natural instincts are right there is that the newer buildings are easier to survey.
00:16:57
Speaker
um um not from a fire safety perspective, but other other um in other ways as well. they theya They are more complex. They tend to be more complex.
00:17:10
Speaker
um But they also tend to be simpler, and more um fit for purpose for a modern day occupation. so and and And also absolutely key is that you tend to have, you know particularly now that Grenfell's happened, you tend to have, you know we've got better, we've improved our systems. um So you know you tend to have better information, a better audit trail there.
00:17:40
Speaker
um so So those tend to be slightly easier, just general generally, and they're easier to get around. They tend to be open plan. You've got they they're like ah a concrete frame or a steel frame, they're open plan. um you know They're easier to get around. If you go to a building that's 150 years old that has had alterations all over the place and it it hasn't had arguably possibly it hasn't had that specialist construction development team in place in the recent past with the highest level engineers involved and it's also then had deterioration of the fabric it's potentially got asbestos in there um it's got you know other problematic materials it's got doors which are hundreds of years old you know that i i think that is a
00:18:37
Speaker
that is um that That can be more difficult from my perspective and a bit slightly more bitty. But um but then the fire strategies, if you've got it the flip side to that is the forms of construction there.
00:18:52
Speaker
can be much more straightforward. you know You've got non-combustible stone walls. You don't have any intonation. You've got masonry internal walls. It's subdivided to ah to a big great you know big greater extent. So and so so it's not it's not a completely black and white answer, that, but my my from my experience, the more modern buildings are easier.
Future Regulations and Advancements in Fire Safety
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah, i can I can understand why because they're theyre they'll be built with modern regulations ah from from the start, but yeah but in mind and in that aspect. So that makes complete sense. um I think that's been really interesting. There's lot loads of ah different aspects around um yeah the internals of of the property. So I think one of the the key things that we'll look at next is regulations and the and the future of fire safety. So tune in for that.