Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 34 - Part 1: New talent troubles in the surveying industry
53 Plays1 year ago
Join us in Episode 34 of Survey Booker Sessions where we chat with Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK. We dive into her dynamic career path, the creation of supportive communities for students, and the future of new talent in surveying. This is a must-listen for anyone in the surveying industry looking to learn and grow.
Professional Journey: Nina Young shares her career transition from chartered accountancy and marketing to founding Surveyors UK.
Student Support: Establishment of a student surveyors group on Facebook to aid networking, mentorship, and support.
Mentorship Challenges: Analysing the obstacles students face in finding mentoring opportunities and the importance of addressing them.
Industry Trends: Discussion on the increasing awareness and engagement in the surveying profession, especially post-COVID.
Skills Gap: Highlighting the critical need to bridge the knowledge gap as experienced surveyors retire and the importance of promoting surveying careers early.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host, Matt Nalley, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for survey
Guest Introduction: Nina Young
00:00:14
Speaker
surveyors. On this week's episode, we have Nina Young from Surveyors UK, so thank you for coming on. ah Thank you for inviting me on, Matt. Really pleased to be here. That's great to have you. Do you want to give us a bit of background as to who you are and then we can sort of introduce what we're going to talk about today?
00:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, sure. um My name's Nina Young.
Surveyors UK and Career Background
00:00:31
Speaker
I am the founder of Surveyors UK. We are a new membership platform for the surveying profession and the wider industry in the UK. We're currently at a stage where we're literally rolling out the the site as we speak, but I've predominantly got a very strong marketing background. And for my sins, which I don't tell many people, I'm also a chartered accountant.
00:00:56
Speaker
Ah, yeah. A lot of people want to keep that quiet. I don't know. No, maybe I shouldn't have said that. Do stay tuned. Yawn. That's an interesting background. so That's an interesting one then. So we're going to talk about new talent trouble in a moment and that'll probably tie in with the student group that you've been running. But yeah how did you go from, I suppose, sort of chartered accountancy and marketing into?
00:01:18
Speaker
so what you and It's kind of evolved really. So, you know, a chartered accountant in my early years, moved into risk management and auditing, mainly within the the corporate sector, did a short stint in public sector. And then I ended up having a total career change because I got to a stage where I kind of moved up and um I didn't really know what I wanted to do next. um Hindsight looking back, I was always destined to work for myself. So I left the sort of corporate world and moved into recruitment and marketing. I'm a very much a self-taught marketeer. And then over the years I've run different businesses and I've helped other people set up businesses. Having though the chartered account background really helps with that. It gives you that kind of really good business grounding. um And then things have just evolved and I kind of just seem to reinvent myself every so often over time.
00:02:12
Speaker
That was good to do. I think you're right. I think having a focus on the numbers is important because it gives you a reality check as to whether what you're going to do is going to work. Cash flow is king, isn't it? In the business, in your own business, cash flow is really king. Yeah. And definitely sales don't match up with cash flow at all. So it's two different things. Yeah, very true. Yeah, very different. Awesome. Okay. So I suppose from there, how did you get into the surveying world and starting up the student group?
Impact of COVID and Career Shift
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah, so um it was it was one of those things. and I think this happened to a lot of people. It was during during Covid. So I had in ah in a different industry, I had a ah job board, a career site for a different industry, and but it was within the hospitality drinks sector.
00:02:57
Speaker
And with COVID, it wiped it out. So we'd gone from having 2,000 jobs a month to 20. And but at that time, I'd already been doing before then property flips, you know, I have a passion for stately homes, ah rented properties. So I've always had that real interest in the built environment anyway. And then I literally discovered that there was such a thing as this salvo course. And I was able to train as a surveyor, a residential surveyor and valuer. So I jumped onto that.
00:03:28
Speaker
Very early on, this idea of education came to my head, um and but I kind of put it put that on the back burner for a little bit and then became a ah surveying student and we're on lots
Student Support and Mentorship Initiatives
00:03:40
Speaker
of, there was lots of lots of WhatsApp groups, you know, students really need, you want to bounce ideas off each other or you know you're getting very challenging case study or something like this but the WhatsApp groups are really difficult because they just come and they just disappear and when you've got lots of people on there some of them like 200 you can't keep up and your phone's just pinging and I thought
00:04:02
Speaker
Well don't we need a dedicated area for students to be able to ask questions and have surveyors on there as well to support students? and So then I set up, I ran it past a few industry leaders and I set up the student surveyors group on Facebook and then we it just took off. I mean we're about nearly 3,000 members now but we have everyone from surveyors, qualified surveyors, professionals, supporting students and then we've got not just service students but we've got undergrads, postgrads,
00:04:32
Speaker
And that just grew over time. And it's just this really supportive community. Interesting. Well, I suppose as the context for this topic at the moment then is new talent trouble, which is what we've outlined. And I suppose it's quite a good point to introduce because obviously we're talking about your journey into surveying.
00:04:49
Speaker
um what What was the the reason for shoot starting out the student group then in terms of off the back of the and the the whats out was that what was Was the pain point just sort of being able to chat to each other or was there other aspects that led you to going, we need another forum of some sorts? I guess I brought it from my own background of of building communities and and you know bringing people together. And I guess that's one aspect was, I guess, you know the ability to ask questions. But I didn't feel there was anywhere because I know many students wouldn't dare asking questions, say on LinkedIn. You know you wouldn't you wouldn't go,
00:05:27
Speaker
Oh, what is this defect and put yourself out there? Cause it's a very public area, public platform. And I felt it needed, there wasn't a group where I felt there was the support and feeling you could ask questions, but then also another area that I thought was really important is finding a mentor, finding someone to shadow or find them counseling, you know? And for me, it was easy. I had a strong network. I asked questions, LinkedIn, I got three mentors very quickly, but so many of my peers, so many of my other students didn't.
00:05:57
Speaker
And so I was like, well, maybe if we also grow this group, that was another opportunity to bring surveys on board. And yet so many have found mentors and shadowing through that group now. um You know, you just post and then talk about careers and they talk about, you know, just challenges they're having. But a big um part I've noticed with the Facebook group is that a lot of people join. And one of the questions when they join is they have the option of you know, are you a student? Are you a surveyor? Are you thinking of training to be a surveyor? Lots join just with that. And so we get lots of people joining who aren't a surveyor, who are asking about courses, who are asking about pathways. And so we have people on there that know those areas and they answer all these questions. So it's also helping support potential new, you know, future surveyors on there as well.
00:06:50
Speaker
That's interesting. that so yeah From what you're seeing in terms of the number of people that are signing up under that level of sort of looking to go into it, do you think we're, I know that'll be a snapshot of the overall market because it's not going to be absolutely everyone, but are you seeing a trend of more and more people signing up as in we're getting more interest in potentially new survey surveys coming through or is it stable plateauing going
Industry Challenges and Education Efforts
00:07:13
Speaker
around? I think over the past few years it's increasing. I think more and more There's I think ah there's a lot of work that's happening out in the industry at the moment. um Within, you know, the professional bodies, within colleges, there is so much universe is so much work going on to try and help elevate the profession, which is one of the the things that we aim to do with survey surveys. UK is why it's bring that together. But I am I am noticing I'm seeing an increase in sort of awareness. I think things are starting to filter through with all the early engagement work that's happening.
00:07:47
Speaker
through schools, there's not so much going on, but I think we need a lot more. I still think there's, we've got a way to go because we've got this big gap between all these amazing, amazingly skilled experience of AS, they're retiring and we're losing that knowledge. You know, I always say to people, I want to be able to download their brains because they have incredible knowledge and then they're just retiring.
00:08:11
Speaker
um And then you've got sort of a bit of a gap in the middle and then you've got the new entrants starting to pick up. So we kind of, we are very short skilled as is like, for example, other areas like construction. There is definitely a shortage of new talent coming in, but I think it's gradually improving bit by bit. Yeah, it's interesting to hear because we did a um a podcast episode with Sarah Noble from RSCS around early engagement. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So that's a good episode to go and listen to but if people want to hear about how they can get involved in that side of things too. um But ah yeah, it's it's it's you right it's difficult to see immediately the impact of those types of things because anyone at school has to has to go through the process of finishing and yeah moving on to other things, ah etc. So there are lag times on those um initiatives. You know, it's not an immediate
00:08:59
Speaker
um Yeah, uptick you're going to see. So it's good to hear that it seems to be having a positive effect, I think. I think it is. I think it is. And I think there are also changes within, you know, I've heard, you know, people talking and trying to address, you know, this area by introducing surveying within our existing topics at school. So within geography.
00:09:19
Speaker
So talking to some people who are looking to how do you just build it in because you would just have a surveying, you know, GCC or whatever, but looking at how, you know, we talk about urban geography and the built environment. So why don't we have just even just a little section on surveying? Just to pick the process up, yeah. So it it picks it up because I one of i actually did consider to look it looked to be a surveyor actually before I went to university, but I found it really, I went to to meet someone um like state at home, he was a state manager and he was a surveyor, but it was just so fuddy-duddy and very old school that it didn't attract me. So I didn't do that route.
00:09:58
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because I felt the same at school. I was interested in the property industry, very broad, you know, but I'm yeah'm interested in it generally. But when it came to looking at the surveying routes, for me, it was more where to start, because there are so many different avenues you can go down to the surveying residential commercial. Yeah, that is a big challenge. Yeah, that's something we're seeing a lot of. And obviously with what we're doing, we're a surveyor case for all surveying disciplines, but I've talked to so many students who they They're doing, let's say, a generic building surveying degree, but they don't know which avenue to go down. And they they want to have the experience, they want to have, you know, maybe they maybe want to go into something like infrastructure or like you say, or commercial, a bit more commercial side, but they're not sure.
00:10:46
Speaker
And it's how do you get that experience, you know, and another big area is apprenticeships, which I think that's growing. So I'm talking to different sort of course providers and there's a lot of steer towards that as and another route. That seems to be on the increase, definitely. So I think that's positive because I think people learn differently and I think it's good to have all different options than the typical degree.
00:11:10
Speaker
You know, I completely agree. I don't, I don't think that the degree route is necessarily right for quite a lot of people. And not in terms of are they good enough to do it, but is that how they learn? Is that how they are motivated, um, cost, like so many different factors. oh yeah um So, um, I think it's really important that we start to start, um, yeah, building up the number of different routes into, um, inter-surveying and other industries, but it's a bit, so I think it's more of a societal, uh, question to that. I think there's a whole thing around.
00:11:38
Speaker
you know, promoting and and showcasing surveying as a career. There is so much going on. And there's so much amazing people out there that are doing brilliant things. And it's like, but where do you need to spread the awareness of that? And then I see a lot of um ah professional organizations or bodies, they they're doing certain things, but they're all doing it separately.
00:12:02
Speaker
um it's like I want a place where we can bring that together and share that you do realise they're already doing this so either you leverage your fists or you know not and not in silos together. Yeah yeah I think that was a point we discussed actually on the early engagement episode which is the um potentially there's a fear of of different people doing their own thing because you know what happens if you take my candidate or you know potential candidate down the line and stuff like that but ultimately there's always going to be some switching so yes you might lose some of yours but you'll gain some of the others and ultimately you create a bigger pie by like working together not not by trying to keep it to yourself. Yeah and I think everyone has different ways ah of of, everyone has their own sort of objectives and agendas for what they want to achieve with certain memberships and things but
00:12:47
Speaker
They all provide things in different ways. you know and It's such a vast area and it's quite mind boggling as to you know how many different routes you can go down. But you can also don't have to necessarily stay in one thing either. You can then change later on or switch. I see and hear a lot about now where someone's decided they don't want to do that area
Career Pathways and Mentoring Challenges
00:13:09
Speaker
anymore. They're just going to focus on this niche. or Yeah, definitely. but as But we've started talking about this topic already, but one of the questions I want to ask is, ah what are the challenges students are facing? You know, you must be seeing day to day what people are talking about on the group as a general trend. and so
00:13:24
Speaker
um What are the bos sort of, I suppose, the biggest three issues, do you think? And then we may be talk about afterwards how people can help with those. but I think it's confusion over roots and how you go about it. Which, which what do you do? Which pathways?
00:13:38
Speaker
um whether you do the degree or, you know, that there's obviously the apprenticeship options and you've got things like SAVA that's obviously specifically residential surveying and valuation. I think it's also, you know, the the whole, for example, if we we look at the RCS, there's the ASOT RICS pathway and, you know, how then to become chartered. There's a lot of challenges as to, I think that's all been looked at. I do believe that's been looked at at the moment and that will be great, but there is a lot of,
00:14:08
Speaker
um confusion over how how do you get to the chartered route and not necessarily just through a degree pathway and that's such a common question on the group is you know do I go down this route or do I go down that route that's like very very common yeah I think with that, the other important thing is as well is not knowing not just knowing what's the right route, but also what's my way back if it's the wrong route and what does it what does it give me and what does it not give me. You're right, it's all that clarity around. And I get it's a very difficult thing to do because that it is such an expansive um vocation in terms of the types of things you can go into.
00:14:47
Speaker
um But equally, yeah, that that and I suppose the part of the challenge is once you solve that, it's clear of people for how they come into the industry, what what their roots are, what they can and can't do, how they backpedal to go into another route. Yeah, and it's an experience of getting a taster for something and and and I think it's enabling and this is what the the group that the the student group has enabled is that it's kind of basically enabled people to have a chat with surveyors, you know, get an idea of it's also just that just having what is the day in the life of.
00:15:17
Speaker
you know, these routes. What does that involve? Whether it be, you know, not just the building surveying route, but quantity surveying, commercial surveying. What does that actually involve in reality, as opposed to you read it online and this is what you do as a job? But actually, what does it involve? And I think there were so many good resources out there that you can find on different areas where people have done videos about it and you know, people newly qualified is going out or students and you can see what they do and they're out with the hard hats on site. You know, it's a new new quantitative area, for example, and it's like, but people need to see that and students need to see a bit more of that. It's not just, and the work life balance, you know, what does the actual job involve? ah The hours, the commitment, because I think there's a bit of misunderstanding about that, you know, so and some roles are far more desk based and some are much more field based, but there is a
00:16:10
Speaker
broad range between the two. That's a very good point. On on the point of um getting getting out in the field to experience it, I suppose that touches on the difficulty you've already mentioned around ah getting mentoring or shadowing, whether it's more during your course to be able to sign things off or whether it's beforehand just to go, is this the right thing? What's the the driver do you think that's causing people to or firms not to offer those opportunities? I think i think there's ah there's a number of things going on. I think a lot of it can be down to, I mean, obviously your your your bigger firms tend to have something set up for that and they actively do encourage it. And some brilliant ones can be really supportive and they just literally actively go out to get that. You know, they want people to get on board because then with the provider that over time they'll like the experience and then they'll become employees in the future. However, I think it's demand on time. So a lot of the areas, obviously I i have a lot of exposure to
00:17:08
Speaker
is within sort of the building surveying residential surveying area. And I think with smaller firms, you go out on site, and I've heard this a lot, when you have someone shadowing you, even if they're not particularly interrupting, but you're teaching, your survey doubles in time. It literally takes twice as long. And then that's affecting that business. If it's a small business, that's income. And I think it's all like expectations and it's,
00:17:38
Speaker
ah misunderstandings between the two so students knowing what to expect and then surveyor setting out the parameters when they're out and about you know what will I provide what will this be you know this is just some shadowing work and you go out and about and you ask questions not and then you've got the full-on mentoring which is much more involved and so I think I think a demand on time is is a big one And yeah, I think that's probably one of the number one. I mean, that really stands out for me. And also misunderstanding, you know, surveyor's feeling, well, they're not used to it. They're not used to teaching somebody. So they're actually nervous as well. You know, I've seen that. They're actually comfortable. They're so experienced, but they're not used to having someone for them to then suddenly almost be a teacher and and show them what they're doing and explain it in a way that the student will understand. So I think there's some of that as well.
00:18:34
Speaker
But what I will say is there are so many layers that are willing to do it. There are so many that I speak to. And it's one of the areas that we really want to address through the platform, Luce of Age UK, where people ah professionals will be able to so opt in to be a mentor. So then they'll have the literally a mentoring badge. So over time, they'll be you be able to search. A student will be able to search a directory for mentors in their area so that we can help match them up um You know, that will obviously take time and that will be as the site grows. But if we could tackle that area, that would be brilliant. But there's there's the whole side of it is how you go and find a mentor, isn't there? and
00:19:17
Speaker
you know, asking the right questions. Yeah, well, I think we'll come on to that in terms of how to ask about um yeah and it's finding a mentor. But I think one of the things, points you made actually is quite an opportunity on the flip side for surveyors. So where you're potentially looking at it as it's going to take me longer, or will I be able to explain things in in a good enough way actually,
00:19:38
Speaker
There's two benefits that could come from that, just those two points. One one is it makes you stop and think about how you're going about your process. Is there better ways of doing things on site as the questions pop up? because It makes you think outside your routine. Yeah, true. The other is if you can't explain something to someone on site that you're you're working with in um in a simple way, you're probably needing to review how you're writing the reports because if you can't explain it to someone there and then visually when they're pointing at the building,
00:20:05
Speaker
It's another thing to get it in writing. So it starts to help you potentially consider different ways of of ah communicating something. yeah to write better report Yeah, it's a really good point. It's getting things across and and and you know complex things or in ah in a more layman's terms because the end the end the end reader of that report does not have that technical and a student may not have that technical knowledge either yet. So yeah, that's that's a really good point.
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah. So it's just, I think for me, it's a different way of looking at it. And again, it's, I suppose, down to how much do you want to commit? You know, you don't have to be doing it. Everything will serve. It could be once a quarter, once every... Yeah, it's managing expectations between them, that communication going, I can commit to this, but that is all I can do. And then also, I do know some students can expect too much on the other side. So it's kind of that marry up between the two. Yeah, definitely. And I think some guidance on both is something we need to have, you know, we need to basically promote Definitely. on On the point you were about to make before I started to cut you off, so sorry for that, was um I suppose students sometimes asking in the wrong way. So are there things that you see people do well or students do well, students do sort of not so well in terms of the way they ask for what they're trying to find in terms of mentoring? and Yeah, yeah, very much so. And I mean, one of the the biggest, the biggest mediums that students currently try and find someone is through LinkedIn. And
00:21:27
Speaker
A lot of what I see is that, only recently as well, is where that, for example, if you're a civilian, you get a message on LinkedIn or you see something and someone's like, I'm looking for a mentor in this area, but their profile doesn't tell them, tell you anything about them. Cause I've seen that. That's, that's like, that's not going to hurt your case. But what I also see is not enough information. So people don't put where, you know, where they based.
00:21:54
Speaker
or what they what they're currently doing, what they're currently studying. What I've noticed is the really good, the really good, a good approach is where students like, you know, looking for some mentoring, you know, I've even seen that I'm happy to hold your equipment. I'll get you a coffee. And it's that kind of two way. It's like, I'm not just going to demand all your time. It's kind of a two way thing.
00:22:17
Speaker
And, you know, I know of students that have got involved helping out with desktop research, you know, and that kind of thing as part of it. And so that's helping. So I think it needs to be seen also as a bit of a two way. And I think those posts or those communications where the student is giving good information about themselves, positive, ah keen, I think that that really helps.
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a very valid point, actually, because you're more incentivized to help someone where they're helping themselves, but also if they are able to help you in some way, then that yeah reduces the burden of it. Yeah, and it's that it's that it's that keenness and excitement. And I think some ways love that. I mean, you do and you want you want to impart your knowledge, you know, you want to do that. And I think where someone's put something and taking the time to write, that also tells you something about somebody, you know, not just, can you help? I mean, they're mental. It's like, well, what does that mean? And also outlining what it is you're looking for and saying, yeah it's only only maybe once a week, I'm i'm happy with with a small amount, just something would be good, because then you can get experience with more than one. You don't have to have just the one, so i because i I didn't when I was doing it,
00:23:29
Speaker
so that I wasn't demanding lots of time. And they all work differently. So you learn different things. And if it helps you then see that not there isn't a perfect way to do it. that It's what works for you. Yeah. having seen the difference So trying different ones and getting more than one is better as well, I think.
00:23:45
Speaker
I think there's been some really interesting points you've raised around all that. ah I suppose to round this topic off before we move on to yeah what's what it's about as you came, what it's helping to do with the industry generally. what What do you think is the biggest challenge then around getting new talent into the industry and where people might be able to support that?
Awareness and Entry Barriers in Surveying
00:24:05
Speaker
I think there is an overarching challenge whereby generally people do not know what a surveyor is ah what are theyors and People know what an accountant is, a solicitor, lawyer, a doctor, these professions. Whereas even when I start to do the training, I get i get blank faces with some friends, like what's that? And then I talk to so many people and it's like a big like, what what does that mean? And so much confusion and misconception over what a surveyor is.
00:24:40
Speaker
And because it's such a huge, so many different types of surveyor, it's, I think that hampers things because then if you don't grow up anyone talking about, oh, what if you want to be a surveyor? Or, you know, instead of being a doctor or a lawyer, solicitor, or any of these, which people you people talk about through through school, through university, you don't, people don't talk about, you know, why don't you become a surveyor? You know, what that is. And I think that's a,
00:25:09
Speaker
big issue. And I think there's a lot of and people just don't know what surveyors do. Interesting, well I think that's a nice point to wrap up. I think for anyone looking to see how they can help with um answering that question as to what is and and yeah helping younger generations coming through, this we did a really interesting episode on um yeah early engagement with Sarah, as I mentioned earlier, so that's one to check out and you can see how you can get involved in in that side. But um really interesting, should we yeah we'll move on to topic two, buts so tune in for that.