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Episode 35 - Part 21: Fire Safety & Building Regulations: External Fire Safety with Jay Ridings
54 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of SurveyBooker Sessions, host Matt Nally speaks with Jay Ridings, a chartered building surveyor and senior director at TFT Consultants, about the current state of fire safety in buildings.
They discuss the continuing issues following the Grenfell Tower fire, specifically focusing on external fire safety and cladding concerns. Jay shares insights on the regulatory changes, the complexities of remediation, and the cultural challenges within the construction industry.
Key points covered include:
- The process of assessing building safety
- The importance of accurate historical information
- The multifaceted nature of resolving fire safety issues
- The ongoing challenges in improving industry practices
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Transcript
Introduction to Survey Booker Sessions
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own
Focus on Fire Safety with J-Ridings
00:00:08
Speaker
business. I'm your host Matt Nally, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for surveyors. On this week's episode, we're looking at fire safety and we've got J-Ridings from TFT consultants.
J-Ridings' Background and Role
00:00:20
Speaker
So yeah, thank you for coming on. Do you want to um yeah give us a brief introduction?
00:00:24
Speaker
Thank you, Matt. Yeah, Jay Ridings from TFT Consultants. I'm a Chartered Building Surveyor, um Senior Director for TFT based in Bristol. um I started life um in London for various firms before making my way west. um So I've been at TFT for about 10 years. I lead the technical due diligence service line, um which essentially means building surveys of existing assets.
Fire Incidents and Historical Context
00:00:53
Speaker
um And yeah, very, very busy with it. Very interesting time. um And we'll talk about, you know, one one key element of that um shortly. Yeah, I think I know what you're going to suggest that is. it's um I suppose the context to to to this episode is when i when I approached you to discuss this, we were more just looking at, you know, Grenfell has happened maybe what, seven years ago now, when it's kind of been in and out the news, it's sort kind of kept itself near the surface, but drops away ah every so often.
00:01:22
Speaker
um And it was yeah an interesting idea to look at where we are with fire safety and buildings. yeah have we Have we moved on? where where Where do we sit relative to that? And ah for context, as we're we're recording this week, ah two or three days after the tower block fire and diagonals. So this obviously will be ah's slightly delayed going out from from from them. But that's yeah just just just back in the news.
Cladding and External Fire Safety Issues
00:01:45
Speaker
So um I suppose for our ah ah different topics, we're going to look at external fire safety, then internal fire safety, and then sort of what the future looks like in terms of fire safety options. But for topic one, if let's focus on the external fire safety side. and I don't know where it's best to start with this, actually. Obviously, we just had the diagonal fire, as I mentioned, the context before that being the Grenfell fire. um And both of those linked to ah sort of the cladding. Is cladding our biggest external issue at the moment and in buildings. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interlinked. This relates to the building industry in general, um points about regulation, about responsibility, about um um workmanship,
00:02:34
Speaker
the the the quality of um buildings that we produce, the quality of construction, the processes surrounding that and and checking the quality of construction. So it's quite ah it's a complex area. um But i mean you can just tell from the media coverage, um which isn't doesn't always reflect the yeah the absolute reality, but cladding and the external walls is absolutely um the the key the key issue I'd say if not the sole issue and one that we are looking at on a day-to-day basis with um with building surveys but also in terms of projects and remedial works. So it's you you started there mentioning that possibly it had quietened down but it's still very much at the forefront of
00:03:33
Speaker
of what's happening in in the building industry and in the surveying industry.
Media and Public Discourse on Fire Safety
00:03:37
Speaker
um I guess you you can't keep that intensity up from two thousand and June 2017 up to now, like you said, the seven years. that yeah There's always going to be lulls in that and the coverage that it can be given.
00:03:53
Speaker
But absolutely, we're still in the middle of it. Yeah, I think ah the the challenge of keeping it in the media, I think we've had just as many um prime ministers as years, I think, almost in that time. It's there so many other things creating noise. it's ah yeah It's difficult to keep it in the forefront, I think. But um I imagine it's going to be back up there um yeah at the moment with what's just happened.
Regulatory Changes Post-Grenfell
00:04:14
Speaker
I suppose what's the what's the biggest um thing that's happened since, say, Grenfell seven years ago? Have we seen a number of buildings you know a good proportion of buildings have um you know bit been remediated and the clouding's been changed or are there big blockers in the process still that are yep meaning that buildings like the one in Dagenham still have clouding on the outside? That's a good that's a good question. um
00:04:40
Speaker
So um there Clearly clearly there's ah there's a lot of focus on fire safety. I think if you look at the Hackett report building a ah safer future, um there were fundamental issues with um the way the construction industry works and the way that the regulations are set out. So it wasn't a case of, um oh yeah, you know, someone's someone's built ah this this one particular building in in West London that had some issues um and you know you know there was there was a slight problem with the response or from the way it was built or the way it was approved or whatever it was there is a fundamental cultural problem with the industry and this this this this and this need to be improved so um it was always going to be a slow
00:05:37
Speaker
difficult um process in order to resolve the problems that that that we have. so So it's taken some um time, and but but we can see that those changes have happened. So there's been a lot of regulatory changes over that period of time. It is happening.
00:05:57
Speaker
then you know if you look towards the remediation process, that's another part of it, but one that I personally am not so close to because I do a lot of looking at existing buildings, spotting the problems, not then fixing them, but but TFT as a company and and obviously my involvement in in you know with RSCS and and the industry i can I can see that these things are happening. From what I understand that there are funds that have been made available through through various government schemes but it's been it it's been a slow process to actually release those funds and undertake the remedial works that are required and I think
00:06:48
Speaker
I think there's there's a lot of buildings affected, not just tall high risk buildings with residential, and with with sleeping risk and and and residential accommodation in them. um There are lots of other buildings as well. So, you know, if you're just looking at the high risk with residential and sleeping risk, then I think i think the process has been slow anyway, the release of funds has been slow anyway.
00:07:11
Speaker
so no it we haven't seen a high proportion of that accommodation remedied, I don't think.
Fire Safety Across Building Types
00:07:21
Speaker
And I think there's a i think there's a goal to maybe maybe remedy most of that by September 2028, I read. But then if you If you then look beyond that at other types of buildings, commercial buildings, lower rise low to medium rise buildings, um then um there's a whole host of you know work still to be done. So it's started, but it's a difficult process. It's a multifaceted process with really loads of different parts to it. So there's more work to be done.
00:07:59
Speaker
I can imagine that's one of my questions was going to be sort of what's the scale of the issue and I i suppose in terms of, did you know what the proportions look like in terms of how many buildings are high rise resi versus a commercial or a low rise resi or is it very mixed across the board?
00:08:17
Speaker
it's I think it's difficult i to answer the question actually as well, because it's to do it by number of buildings or a number of people like occupying. and Yeah, it's it's a it's really it's a really difficult um question to answer in that the commercial world and the residential world are completely, completely overlap.
00:08:36
Speaker
So within the commercial world, you know where how do you define that exactly? You've got build to rent sector, private rented sector, purpose built student accommodation sector, you know hotels, and you know so so some some of them some of them of those buildings fall within you know what's defined as residential, what's a relevant building under the building regulations, um what's a higher risk building under the Building Safety Act.
00:09:04
Speaker
so um Yeah, so it's difficult it's difficult to um to say. I mean, figures that I've seen are kind of social um landlords, social housing providers have sort of 10,000, I was looking it up earlier, um sort of around 10,000 unsafe buildings, which are kind of the taller, higher risk buildings.
00:09:32
Speaker
I think they were talking about one in 10 of their portfolio is affected in this way. but i But I think the numbers are probably higher. And if you look at commercial buildings that we look at, I mean, it's all on a spectrum, isn't it?
00:09:46
Speaker
but we there There probably isn't a building we look at that doesn't have fire safety issues, whether that's in this topic, one, external walls, or whether you know whether it's internal fire safety issues as well. So its it's it's you know it's ubiquitous, basically. It is really throughout, and it just depends how big is the problem. I suppose one of the interesting things that would be useful to to look at. because You mentioned you go out on site and you do um yeah what you call it reports on existing buildings. so How do you start from an external perspective at looking at the building and understanding ah well yeah ah how how safe it is or whether it's got the right things in place?
Assessing Fire Safety: Cladding and Walls
00:10:28
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. So I mean, that that process really starts at fee proposal stage when you're looking at what building you're looking at. So, you know, if you're looking at a single story shed, for example, where there's no sleeping risk, you're already preparing yourself for what you're going to come, you kind of, yeah you know, half what you're going to expect with that type of building and the risks that it brings. So it all starts there.
00:10:59
Speaker
Then when when you go to site, you're kind of ready for the prominence that the external walls are going to make to your survey and the survey recommendations. So clearly if you're looking at a hotel or you're looking at a build to rent private rented sector block, or you're looking at a building with some residential and some um other use,
00:11:20
Speaker
you're already aware that this the the external walls are going to play an absolutely key part of what the that what the risks are for that building. So when you then go go to site, your you're then going to have a greater focus on the external walls, what materials have been used, um both on the outside face, but also the insulation within that wall wall system.
00:11:50
Speaker
and and also how that insulation is contained both with it by the external cladding and the internal lining because that makes a difference in terms of regulations. So your kind of primed and preparation as with everything is absolutely key.
00:12:06
Speaker
And then really like all the bits of surveying, it's quite simple. did you you you You busy yourself on site and you you you get into the fabric as much as um as much as possible.
00:12:22
Speaker
um which you know With building surveying, it's funny because it it's kind of ironic that when we build buildings, we do absolutely everything to conceal the building fabric and make it look like it's not some raw form of construction made of actual you know actual structural materials. So it can be challenging at times, but you've really got to try and lift the lid on it, if you like, try and get behind the into the cladding, behind the cladding, um as much as possible. And you know if you think about the the key um cladding types that are a concern, it's those rain screen types of cladding, like like acm ACMs that were on Grenfell. So then you're trying to you're trying to get around the side of those panels to understand
00:13:16
Speaker
um um to Do they have a core or are they a solid panel, for example? um What is the insulation behind them? But there's only there's only so far you're going to get normally in that that first stage carrying out a TDD building survey.
00:13:35
Speaker
if you then have concerns you then obviously you you raise them and then you carry out a more ah more detailed intrusive investigations if it if it's required but the other really important thing to say which I've been sort of banging on about for years is the importance of information because again you're only going to get so much from the building survey it's one day in time on that site looking at that building where that building has had however many years of history behind it with however you know
00:14:09
Speaker
whatever record information there is available in in the past with the development team and construction team in place. and you know So there's there's loads of history there and it's it's our job to to try and find find that history. and yeah One of the Hackett review recommendations was creating that golden thread of information, that audit trail of information.
00:14:31
Speaker
And that is so valuable to what we do. So finding O&M operation and maintenance manuals on site, record drawings on site with you know marked up elevations, marked up sections of the external walls, manufacturers, literature, um you know things, what are called BBA certificates, which show the fire resistance of materials that have been used, um reports that may exist,
00:15:00
Speaker
you know for showing that the facades have been tested or fire engineers have already looked at those external walls so information is is really important as well as the physical inspection.
Cultural and Compliance Issues in Construction
00:15:11
Speaker
I can imagine because it gives you a a much better picture and of course you um imagine you have to ah but trust book check you know you see see the information but is it is that what's actually been installed or is that what's actually in place? Well absolutely I mean there's a whole that's a really good point because often we find and this is a ah really common theme is what the drawings tell you is there isn't necessarily
00:15:37
Speaker
there and a really good example of that is cavity barriers and fire stops so you know the drawings and the information may indicate that they should have been installed or have been installed and then actually when you undertake intrusive investigations that they're either they're not there or they're they're fitted incorrectly. ah That's interesting so you you mentioned and touched on briefly earlier ah culture as a there's an issue between loads of different um parts of the process and not finger pointing at any particular group. But um is that is that all related to to culture as well? the fact that is it Is it people choosing not to put stuff in because yeah it saves costs or is it actually a ah training issue and it's just you know misunderstanding what's required? or
00:16:28
Speaker
um and potentially with collecting this information in the first place and building up these pictures on a building as to what's happened over time. it Is that a cultural thing as well where people just aren't in in the habit of storing all this type of data?
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i think I think if you go back to what we originally, um what how how I started off, saying it's a very interrelated issue, it's to do with all of those things that you mentioned, you know arguably inadequate training, um unclear um regulations, possibly an under-resourced sector, if you think about building control in the checks that that they have undertaken. um And then you only need to
00:17:16
Speaker
have listened to some of the Grenfell inquiry and the um the the the articles and the books that have followed, which clearly show that culturally, I mean, you you can look at the the quality of work and the training given to to people who are actually building the systems, arguably. um um you know, maybe maybe speaking slightly outside of my um but being sure of that fact. But what was demonstrated was that the the the the approvers and the manufacturers
00:17:55
Speaker
There was clearly culturally some need to watch my step a little bit here, but I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't been proven. It was all said by others. There were there were people who were we're were using loopholes and purposefully um um Installing, installing systems and and vouching for products that just weren't doing what they were supposed to do. So, you know, I'm never going to sum up all the shortfalls and the the issues that were highlighted in the Grenfell inquiry on this podcast, but um but in short, there there is there's clearly has been a cultural problem and it's not just from one set of of of people. I think some some parts are worse than others.
00:18:46
Speaker
I think it's probably fair to say. Definitely, definitely. I think one thing that possibly happens in that scenario as well is when something happens higher up for everybody else, it just becomes a norm over time. And you don't necessarily realize it's incorrect because that's what you're being told to do. And you you you got you assume that that's ah best practice or yeah the best new material or whatever it might be. So it's yeah so yeah yeah, you get ingrained cultural um mindsets just through not realising. It's almost herd mentality and sort of this joint consciousness that if they're doing it, then it must be okay. And then everyone just carries on in that fashion because it's it just seems to be accepted.
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it becomes just the norm. um but one one One thing that we discussed, I think, off this, but um was the resolution process around outdoors. And and I'm guessing lots of challenges around ah how how you remediate sort of the findings that you, that that you know, the findings you have on site, I suppose. So you touched on the fact there was um like first stage might be you do some further investigations, but what What does the steps look like after that in terms of you suspect something's wrong, but perhaps it with a a certain material? Is that then sent off for investigation and then beyond that as it looking at then how it gets removed from the building and access and all those types of factors? So so as I mentioned, I mean, you you carry out that first survey and then it either raises concerns or it doesn't.
Remediation Process for Fire Safety
00:20:21
Speaker
Obviously if it doesn't, it it goes no further.
00:20:24
Speaker
If you then have concerns you obviously need to follow that through and um there tends to be established processes and flowcharts about how you go um down down those paths. um A typical route if you have concerns is to, and I mentioned it earlier, a point ah fire engineer to carry out a PAS9980 assessment, which is an appraisal of the external walls, which again, specifically it's but it's meant to be for blocks of flats, but it's been a sort of established methodology. It's the established methodology behind the EWS-1 forms um for for lending purposes, um but but can can be applied to commercial,
00:21:14
Speaker
buildings as well. So I mean the this all goes back to sort of building regulations and then how they work so yeah you know apologies for teaching anyone to suck eggs or going over the basics but building regulations set out the prescriptive requirements in order to what needs to be done by a building to comply with regulations but then flowing down from that the approved documents which are acting as guidance to what what needs to be done to then achieve building regulations and there is a kind of sort of the dark arts almost of building regulations compliance because obviously you've then got that guidance which then demonstrates that you've complied but it's not always prescriptive and there are well specifically for approved document B and fire safety there are fire engineering routes in order to
00:22:08
Speaker
achieve compliance. So the reason I'm saying all of that is it's not always immediately obvious whether a problem is a problem or a shortfall is a significant shortfall that actually needs remediation. So that's why that next step is the PAS 9980 review to assess whether an external wall is tolerable or it's not, and action is then needed. So once you've established whether it's needed or not needed, if it if it is needed, you're obviously going down the route of right.
00:22:46
Speaker
let's specify what remediation works are required, what what further investigations are required to establish the remediation specification, and then you develop it from there and it becomes it becomes a project. and it you know ah It goes over to the so the project um team to specify those works and and get those and get those procured. It's fascinating. because It's very easy to sort of thinking back to the and the media articles, and it suddenly gets very easy to to read that and go, well, it's one wrong cladding. Why was it put on in the first place? Just change it. What takes so long? And actually, you're right. There's so much that has to go on in the background to understand
00:23:29
Speaker
ah What was the cause? What was actually the best solution? How do you go about it? So this is super complicated.
Accountability in Construction and Remediation
00:23:35
Speaker
and and And then, Matt, not just the not just the what what what needs to be done and what's the best way to go about it, but also really, really complicating matters is what was the requirement? What what was the contractual requirement for the construction of those external walls?
00:23:55
Speaker
and You know, can can who who is accountable? and And I think that's been a large part of the problem, isn't it? who who's Who's actually accountable for this? Is it is it the developer? Is it is it the manufacturer?
00:24:10
Speaker
you know, who have been shown to be really um in, you know, have have gone way over the line. is it Is it the design team for then trusting those guys? and You know, how tight is the specification? So is the contractor actually you know, fully on the hook or was the specification actually not that not that clear and doesn't actually stipulate what what needed to be done properly. And then finally, is the contractor who's responsible or is the design team who are responsible, are they still around? You know, because lots of those, the industry, particularly external wall contractors, subcontractors, you know, those guys go into um administration really quite
00:24:56
Speaker
regularly, so lots of them won't be around. And then main contractors, you know not quite as bad, but lots of them are no longer around. So there's not always a team to actually go back on, and then
Conclusion and Transition to Internal Fire Safety
00:25:10
Speaker
it's all about funding. So it's complicated. Oh, definitely. and then And even within those companies, people have left and moved on, and you don't have the full picture again. So it's potentially depending on record keeping. So yeah, yeah multifaceted.
00:25:24
Speaker
ah I think that's been a really interesting first part looking at the externals and obviously I think there's even more we could probably go into you know you could spend several hours on this topic but I think let's move on to internal fire safety so to tune in for part two.