Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 40: The Changing Trends of Negligence Claims in Surveying with Nik Carle, Browne Jacobson LLP
72 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of Survey Booker Sessions, host Matt Nally, founder and director of Survey Booker, sits down with Nik Carle from Browne Jacobson LLP to discuss the evolving trends in negligence claims within the surveying industry. They revisit some critical points from their previous discussion and dive deep into various 'flashpoints' or areas where surveyors are most vulnerable to claims.
Nik Carle draws on his extensive experience as a litigation solicitor to offer practical advice, including the importance of adhering to home survey standards, carrying out pre-inspection research, and the growing role of alternative dispute resolution (ADR) in handling claims. This episode is a must-watch for surveyors who want to stay ahead, minimise risks, and enhance their professional practice.
00:08 Guest Introduction: Nik Carle from Browne Jacobson
00:41 Focus of Today's Episode: Negligence Claims in Surveying 01:05 Nick Carl's Background and Experience
02:50 Discussion on Home Survey Standards
09:53 Importance of Surveyor's Qualifications and Experience
16:20 Pre-Inspection Research and Its Significance
30:04 Further Investigations: Balancing Professional Judgment and Liability
34:54 Building Professional Confidence 35:20 Understanding Negligence vs. Mistakes
37:30 Inspection Standards and Legal Flashpoints
42:14 Trends in Litigation and Valuation Cases
47:57 Case Study: The Green vs. Windy Dispute
4:29 The Rise of ADR in Legal Disputes
01:05:00 Conclusion and Future Outlook
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Reintroduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host, Matt Nally, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for surveyors. On this week's episode, we have the return of Nick Karl from Brown Jacobson, who came on in one of our previous episodes. And then we're goingnna we're going to catch up again and look at some some different angles. So thanks for coming on today. I'm very pleased to be back. Matt, thanks for asking me on.
00:00:30
Speaker
That was a pleasure. I think the last episode had some ah yes some good some good traction. People enjoyed it, I think. So um I thought it'd be interesting to catch up and see how things have have shifted, perhaps, since since we last spoke.
Trends in Negligence Claims
00:00:41
Speaker
Sure. Probably around a year ago now. I suppose the focus of today's episode is the sort of changing trends of negligence claims in surveying, because we very much obviously covered negligence claims in the in the last one. um I suppose before we jump straight into that, for anyone that that Well, we've sort of hinted on it, I suppose, but if anyone didn't watch the first episode that we did together, do you want to just introduce yourself briefly and what your background is and then we can launch, I suppose, into negligence claims and the home survey standards? Yes, of course. I'm a litigation solicitor and really for about 25, 30 years now, I've been specialising in
00:01:25
Speaker
um professional liability claims against um property professionals. um So it's quite quite a focused practice area for me. And um I ah started out doing claims against severes and valuers um in the mid-90s and have kept um a consistent um practice going for all these years.
Understanding Home Survey Standards
00:01:57
Speaker
um And it's been really interesting to see how um ah that that category of of litigation has has developed so over these decades now. yeah so i'm't I can't imagine that. Yes, it's it's been, um I mean, there's been peaks and troughs, but it has been um
00:02:24
Speaker
that has been a regular area four for for for claims. um And it's been it's been a very interesting um ah practice to to be to be involved in. um so So day in, day out, I am advising severe and valuers on risks in their professional activity and um ah very often dealing with them with cases in in court, um going to trials, um going to hearings, um and um representing surveyors. I should say I do some work on the claimant side, but most of my work is on the defendant side, so acting for um surveyors and valuers. But it helps to see both sides of the defense very much.
00:03:23
Speaker
Oh, definitely. and then Because then you can understand the the yeah the the the mindset on each side, the pitfalls on each side, and and and i mean what's going to help each other out. And I think in our and our first episode that we did together, we talked more about the the realities is around the process and and how to protect yourself more. I think this one's going to be interesting because we're going to start coming on to specifically how how they how they work within the home survey sort of standard. um And then some case studies I think you mentioned we'll touch on.
00:03:53
Speaker
Yes, maybe maybe today, Matt, we'll look more at what happens when um ah when disputes do develop into a to a claim. I think last time um we concentrated more on the on the initial stages when when that first complaint comes in and we talked ah a bit about how um surveyors could a mitigate the risks of ah of a clean coming up and what they could do to protect themselves at the outset, at the front end. And maybe without wishing to scare anyone too much, um we could focus a little bit more today on on the back end and and um what happens when yeah when cases do develop into full on court litigation and trials and things like that.
00:04:49
Speaker
Definitely, I think think of anything, it's not to you're right, it's not to scare, it's it's to sort of take the lid off and show what are the realities behind it. And then, because learning from those um those previous cases, you can help prevent um those types of things in your own yeah practice. Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, very useful. Should we start with, um I suppose, the home survey standards specifically. and I know there's going to be a shift soon, but there's a review of at the moment going on with the home survey standards and and how that might change.
00:05:18
Speaker
um Should we touch on yeah sort of yeah the potential for negligence claims with the current standards and where you think that might might go with as the as the standards change? Obviously, we don't know what the standards will be yet, but that might be a good starting point. Yeah, I mean, I think the the home service standard is really um interesting. um And if if I maybe give um a perspective from from a lawyer's, from a litigation lawyer's um viewpoint, um ah
00:05:49
Speaker
as to why the home service standard is so is so important. am And so the the reason is that ah it provides ah essentially a framework, it's ah it's ah way a to benchmark a severe activity. and So when ah cases do arise um in court, the ah home service standard is used very much as ah as a blueprint for for what should have been done. So if there's so often claimant lawyers will do is to compare the actual activity and the performance of the job with what the home service standard required. And if there are any gaps there, um that does give ah the claimant an opportunity to seize on those and
00:06:49
Speaker
to um rely on them as being and an element of negligence or alleged negligence. So it's some it's it is it is important in that sense um to comply, to make sure you comply with the with the detail of the of the standard.
00:07:11
Speaker
um And i I think it's a good, we talked about, we just referenced um earlier, what what you can do to protect yourself and being being knowledgeable and familiar about the ah standard um will very much very much assist you. and So that's quite important. Yeah, i've got an interesting question that I've got from that then is, if you let's say you know the home standard really well, you've you've've you've reviewed it, you've taken your interpretation of what it's asking for.
00:07:49
Speaker
is Is it fairly clear cut, do you think in terms of what you're expected to do or are there areas that art are open to interpretation at the moment at least and therefore they that's where claims could come from or was it more that claims come from actually those something clearly wasn't followed rather than it was a change in interpretation? Well, I think um i think it's i' I've identified um probably three or four flashpoint areas that I can see are um ah are particularly susceptible to severe falling down, I think. um But it's like it's a good idea to ah to just have some broad familiarity with it. I mean, it's probably a bit much to carry the thing with you when you're out, without my job. I mean, that that would be too much to expect.
00:08:46
Speaker
But there are there are different areas of emphasis um in the standard ah that i that I think um it might it might be helpful just to go through those um those sort of flash points that I've identified. I'm just going Matt to um bring it up if I can on my screen and then we can We can just point those some those sections up.
Importance of Surveyor Qualifications
00:09:12
Speaker
Definitely. I think part of the reason I ask, just for context, is we we did another episode around um yeah understanding requirements of level 3s and
00:09:21
Speaker
there's some terminology which, um you know, potentially you've read or you've looked at dictionary definitions, it could be read as, you know, there's there's less requirement in the level three than there is the level two or something like that. Yes. Which, yeah, that's why I sort of cut wondered whether some of these ah but areas of pitfalls, because it's sort of terminology um and and how it's interpreted. Yes. And I watched that episode. It was tim Tim Kenny, wasn't it, that did that and which I thought was a really useful session.
00:09:49
Speaker
on that, and I know that Tim um referenced during that talk um i the heart and large decision, of course, which was which I think predated the home service standard, but um one of the points that Tim was making is that um the home service standard is not perfect by any means, but it's a lot better to have that kind of um ah framework in place um as opposed to what went before. So it's a much improved um situation and it's ah it's it's much clearer in that sense that some but it's ah a lot a lot of work went into this to the um first edition of the standard. And as she said, it's now currently under ah review for 2024-25. So it will be interesting to see
00:10:46
Speaker
um ah what um ah what feedback um really takes hold in the in the next edition. Because ah there's there's no perfect standard for anything. if you know every yeah it's Even if you get it perfect for right now, the environment you're working in changes, and so it's always going to have to be iterated. Yeah, exactly. i think um i I think the standard i mean was created 2019 and then came into force, I think it was
00:11:17
Speaker
2021, sort of in the midst of COVID. And um ah so it had a kind of a splattered um ah start and a kickoff. um And you're right. So, you know, things things do change and we're we're sort of four four or five years on now. So you would be expecting um a significant update at this at this staging post.
00:11:46
Speaker
Yeah, tight i think um definitely. So yes, which we come on to the sort of yeah the areas you've identified as Yeah, I think they yeah I think um I mean, this is this is just my view. And I should say I'm not aware of any cases yet. In court that have specifically um highlighted the the the detail of the of the home service standard. um But This is my prediction for what's likely to be the um the substance and of any claims that come through. those As I say, I call them my sort of flashpoint areas or pitfalls really to um to look out for. um So the first the first one, Matt, was um ah just about the um the surveyors' qualifications and experience.
00:12:45
Speaker
um And this is in um Section 2 of the Home Survey Standard. um ah And the the thrust of of um the emphasis here is that
Pre-inspection Research Requirements
00:13:00
Speaker
um the RICS member, the severe, must have sufficient qualifications and experience to be able to deliver the services in question um and must really have the requisite knowledge um and credentials and confidence to be able to take the job. Now, there's been a lot of historic court cases on this theme, which is why I identify it, why it kind of leapt off the page. Hart and Larges kind of touches on this as well.
00:13:45
Speaker
is about the severe, um really asking themselves so whether they are, whether this is within their comfort zone, this particular job that's coming along. um ah Where it often comes up is for instance, if you've got, ah if if your bread and butter is is doing, um ah ah recently,
00:14:13
Speaker
um standard inspections um of more modern property, for instance, um within ah within a particular valuation band,
00:14:30
Speaker
um ah maybe um of reasonable complexity. But anything that's unusual, and heart and large was a very, very unusual property. I think it was it was on in, in highland or something. It was, it was very unique. Um, uh, and the severe there really should have stopped and asked himself, you know, should I really take on this this, this job? Um, so, I mean, it could be complex property, heritage property, um, any sort of complexity that you're
00:15:14
Speaker
that you're going to have to stretch yourself into is is a danger territory from ah from a claims point of view. And it's a difficult one because you might want to branch out into an area. So it's it's how do you how do you transition to make sure you've done enough shadowing or um you know working alongside someone to know that you you've built that minimum level up to justify taking on a sort of more unusual case story on your own. So that must be a tough tough one to call. I think that's right. and And in the cases that have gone before, um the there's even been one I can remember ah where the um it was ah it was a really big job for an um and an outlet center.
00:16:01
Speaker
um a retail center out of out of town. um It was a valuation job, this one, ah but the severe concern had just not had any prior experience, but they wanted the job because it was a big fee um and it was an interesting new area to um ah to delve into and to develop their their practice. So they took the job and then they took the view that they could just sort of wearing on the job and that this once they had done this first one, that would enable them to to build their business and build their offering for um for future opportunities. um But they did come seriously unstuck because they just didn't know the market, um ah didn't have enough of a um ah base understanding to do a proper job. um And that was a multi-million pound
00:17:02
Speaker
um error that was made. But so the principle does cut across to to all cases, and it's emphasized in Section 2 of the Home Survey Standard that you really must have that um ah knowledge and ability, both in relation to the property and the locality as well. um locality is is is something that, um a again, is really highlighted in the Home Survey standard. um ah So I think
00:17:43
Speaker
No, one of the difficulties is if if you move home, you know, you used to live in, I don't know, um Kent and you've decided to move to Wales, suddenly you you're diff same same term but sorry you understand properties, but but the the location's completely changed. So yeah, how do you manage that transition? So there's things to think about there. Yes, exactly. um And it's it's not an optional thing in in and that requirement in the home service standard.
00:18:12
Speaker
ah It says in Section 2.2 that RICS members must be experienced and able to deliver ah the the services. Members must be familiar with the nature and complexity of the of the subject property type, the region in which it's situated, and the relevance to the subject instruction.
00:18:41
Speaker
So if you don't have that, you should not, you must not take on the job. ah For the reasons you said, Matt, you know, that's, you know, it can be quite a difficult um decision to to me, but that's what the standard requires. Because you can sympathise with the logic that you mentioned, which is if I take this on, I can progress my business, I've learned something new, but the problem is you don't know what you don't know. So you don't know what you're missing. yeah um You can think that you're putting something good together. But um but can can you get around, not get around it, but I suppose what I'm trying to say here by get around it by you take on that work, but you bring in a consultant to work alongside you that has that knowledge. Does that mitigate that?
00:19:23
Speaker
I think that's a good idea. Yeah. yeah And because generally, ah I think it's to be encouraged that you do that you do constantly build your knowledge, build your expertise, um build your capabilities um as you develop in your career. um ah And you're right thinking about different ways in which you can still stay the right side of the standard, but ah achieve that progression in your in your um ah
00:19:53
Speaker
ah abilities and repertoire I think is is definitely to be encouraged. So that's a good that's a good option to bring in a consultant alongside. Options is a better word for it. Yes. I'll use that one next time. ah but so that's That's an interesting one. it's it and So what are the flashpoints have you seen? Well, umm part part of just before we move away from this yeah this idea about knowledge and ah locality. um This is a, again, a kind of a similar theme, but Section 3 of the Home Survey Standard um also ah talks about locality. 3.1 says, ah again, RICS members must be familiar with the type of property to be inspected and the area in which it is situated. And this is really
00:20:52
Speaker
concerned with pre-inspection research, which again, I think his a is a is an area that has potential to to sprout um ah claims and complaints. If this idea of pre-inspection, so before you even go out to to site to the property, um that you have done some desktop checking. Again, you must have the base level of knowledge about the property. So you should not be continuing if you don't have that base level of norri knowledge. So this is assuming you do have the the the requisites. But even if you do, you still need to carry out um ah the appropriate pre-inspection research. And again, this is mandatory.
00:21:50
Speaker
um ah My instinct is it's it's maybe not being very closely observed as a as a requirement on a day to day level, but I i don't know. that's just ah That's just a sense I have. um Well, because you yeah you can imagine someone gets busy, they've they've run over from previous appointments the day before, they're catching up and then they get they don't have time to do the pre-research, they get there um and then maybe do a post past inspection. Are there ways that
00:22:22
Speaker
people can evidence or surveyors can evidence that they have done that research in advance. Because, because you know, I suppose one example, you've taken a screenshot, usually that's date and time stamped, that might be a useful way. But I'm wondering if there's, and there are there other ways people might do research in a way that doesn't necessarily give away when it was done? i They tried to defend later, they did do it in advance, but there's no there' no real evidence of when it occurred. I think, if I think, um if you have a ah ah ah sort of quite ingrained methodology that that in every in every case, in every job that you that you do have, I mean, it if if you're very familiar with the market and the and the type of property, then um ah the the the amount, the extent of pre-inspection research you're going to need to do is probably quite limited, but you still need to at least ah check that you've, um or check that box as it were. um As to how to evidence it, I think um i think if there's some sort of electronic um ah record or some sort of tracking that could automate that it's been that it's been done,
00:23:46
Speaker
Maybe, as I say, just it just a sort of check check box that um that indicates it it's been done from from an audit trail point of view is helpful. Ultimately, it'll come down to the severe um having to give a witness statement ah in court um and ah explaining what the process actually was. And that witness evidence will have to be ah truthful. and that's that's That's what it comes down to it ultimately. Yeah, true. I guess if youre if you are taking screenshots and all other things and you're sawing those, is you'll have a creation date usually on a document, wouldn't you? Something like that. so shit There should be ways of for of proving that as well, but yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Pre-inspection research, I think, is is really important.
00:24:45
Speaker
not from a back covering point of view, but as as part of the whole picture of making sure that the ah the the survey product is is a really um comprehensive one and that it starts before you before you leave the office sim effectively.
00:25:01
Speaker
but I think it's yeah it's giving you that context before you get there, um rather than going in blind. So you've got you've got certain giveaway things that you you can look for as as soon as you turn up. you know if it's If it's, I don't know, clay soils, you can look for certain types of shrinkage or bulge or a heave or whatever it's called um that might be affecting the property. So without that, you you might forget to look for those types of things so you haven't had the flag beforehand. Yeah, I mean, and the that that's right. You're kind of pre-warned and you're you're you're alert to potential issues before you even arrive. I think that's some that's a good way to put it. the The one kind of topic where this has come up already a few times is um on on Japanese knotweed. And the the the type of pre-inspection research that we're talking about here is heat maps and things for where knotweed is more prevalent in the country than
00:25:58
Speaker
um than in other areas like South Wales, for instance, is notorious for for prominence of knotweed. But again, if you're familiar with your market in which you're operating with your catchment area, you should know that already, but um you want to have access to your to your heat maps. um And then this really brings us on to another kind of um um sub section of pre-inspection inquiries, I guess, and that's really um getting information from the seller and or from the agent. um And this is dealt with in 3.2 of the home survey standard. um And that says we're we're relevant practical
00:26:56
Speaker
ah the owner and or the seller or their agent should be asked to provide appropriate information. And it goes on to ah talk about, you know, previous alterations, repairs, improvement work, ah planning permissions, um ah any relevant guarantees and warranties. um And I think, I think, yes, not so not weed.
00:27:24
Speaker
ah is given a special mention in this in this section. um ah And also about sort of neighbour disputes rights of way. And this is where you kind of get an overlap with the with the ah what would be inquiries of the seller so that so the conveyancing, the conveyancer would usually pick up some of these things. But there is There is a definite um blurring of what's what's down to the severe to establish and what's what can be left to the conveyancers or the solicitors to to sort out when the transaction's going through.
Legal Overlaps and Environmental Considerations
00:28:14
Speaker
um But again, this is this is an area of emphasis in the ah home service standard and I think it's um
00:28:23
Speaker
yet another area that could translate into into claims. It's a good way for surveyors also to sort of um um be on their guard and they can, if by asking more questions of the agent or the seller or the occupier, it pushes potential responsibility away from the surveyor and into or over to the um the seller or the agent or the solicitor potentially. So ah that's a good kind of deflecting tactic um to protect yourself is to ask us as many questions as you can.
00:29:08
Speaker
It was interesting when you when you contrast this with the home report process up in Scotland, um the property questionnaire outlines or covers most of those most of those aspects and it's the of the the property vendor that's having to or sell ah but it's having to fill that in. So it does take a lot of the owners off um or the workload off having to go and find that information because that ah required the the seller is required to provide that in a document.
00:29:33
Speaker
Yes. um So yeah, but as versus here, I suppose, where you've got to try try and encourage people to hand over information where they're not not necessarily um yeah forced to as part of the surveying process normally. Exactly. um ah So ah again, the way this is this plays out in court is that for cases that have a feature like this, both both the the severe and the seller can get sued at the same time. And you you know you have to decide how the responsibility for this is is a portion between the two of them. So you've got two defendants there. Knotweed, again, just to mention it, to it keeps coming up, but ah there's been a few cases about um sellers or owners concealing the existence of knotweed or concealing from the severe.
00:30:34
Speaker
um ah other other defects that might be at the might be at the property. um So if the severe has asked the question and then got um and then got a reply in the negative, um nothing to worry about on that score, then the severe should be in the clear um on that aspect. So as as I say, it's a really good um ah it's a really good thing to remember as a protective tactic um and to be on your guard as ever. That's a nice ah nice takeaway on that point actually. If you put the right type of process in, you can have a document that gets sent to the the vendor or the the agent on booking. I suppose the only thing with that is it's one thing to send it, you've think got to make sure you follow up and and and get that back with the information in, otherwise it's just ah ah um a a missed opportunity. I guess yes, but even having it having that as a as an attempt to
00:31:34
Speaker
um ah to to to focus on on these sorts of questions. And all you can do is, you know, you can't force out an answer. And I guess it's um yeah yeah there's a degree of reasonableness that that overlays this um requirement. um So um you can only do so much. But something like that, as you suggest, Matt, is ah is a good it's a good way to sort of um ah bake it into the to the processes as far as you can.
00:32:06
Speaker
Yeah, definitely, definitely. so I think a theme that you you touched on earlier, which is it's all about having a methodology, a process that you can evidence when you need to, to show that you are taking reasonable steps to um yeah do you do your initial pre-inspection work or you're yeah asking those types of questions. It's all about consistency and processes. yes which I think we should have touched on last time too far, actually. We did, we did. We talked about that. yeah um It's very important. um So um ah just just before moving off this this idea of the pre-inspection research, um
00:32:46
Speaker
there's a there's again a major highlighting of um Appendix C in the Home Service Standard, which is all about the um location of the property from an environmental or the sort of um environmental impacts of the of the property or the locality.
00:33:12
Speaker
um ah um So you've got the usual clear environmental considerations, which we all know about, you know flooding and um ah ah geological and soil conditions and things like that, mining activities. um But it also touches on um climate which and sustainability, which is very much um for the last few years has been an increasingly important theme. um There haven't been any cases that I'm aware of on this, but in terms of a of another flashpoint, hot topic area for potential claims, um I think climate is really important
00:34:07
Speaker
climate and energy um saving considerations. um ah I think that needs to be something that's really brought to the fore in in reports. As this the survey standard um ah develops over time, we talked about you know how things are different from 2021 to 2025. Climate is is going to be iss not as not a theme that's going to die back, it's going to go the other way. So, Appendix C will, I'm quite sure, remain in the new service standard when it's when it's released and probably be expanded. Yeah, I think that's probably a fair um fair assessment. and the the We did a podcast episode as well with um Kate Gerrington and we focused very much on, well, part of it was on
00:35:03
Speaker
um yeah, quality of home reports and so on. But there was, that we did do a ah topic on, um ah what do you call it? the Yeah, the environmental aspects and and making sure that you're reporting on that in the right way. Yes. um And I think it's possibly an area that's easy to fall behind on because there's so many new products coming out, new materials, new technologies ah that can impact how a house operates works. It's important to try and keep up to date with those that bit that information in order to be able to report on it in the right way? Yes, and there's ah there's a real sense that um um from consumers' perspective perspectives,
00:35:40
Speaker
the um ah that that's that's ah a big part, a crucial part of their buying decision. um How ah hi energy efficient the property is, um how the location of the property, or is it in in again in climate terms, you know um hi with with a changing climate, um how is this specific property going to fare over the lifespan of the of their ownership? these are really and there think There's been quite a bit of research on this, but these are really um ah top of the list or near the top of the list in in what informs the
00:36:29
Speaker
um the buying decision um you know and cost of the property and in energy terms with but energy prices currently being so so high. um So bound to be an area that we need to return to I think in in coming years.
00:36:46
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. and it's because it's hard It's hard to um imagine otherwise as a consumer how um how the cost of maintenance might change as as you know environmental factors that change well. The increase in um wind and rain and ah sun and all that type of stuff will change change how the ground operates around the house or the trees or the the the guttering or whatever it might be. Yes, I'm sure that's right. I'm sure that's right. um And no doubt, like everything else, it will be if there's any sort of failing by the severe to give insufficient attention to these kind of issues, then that is going to translate into claims. But I think this is more for the later part of this this decade um yeah that we might some really sort of future um looking and by like quite a number of years, but it's we definitely worth mentioning now at this still quite early stage.
Professional Judgment and Liability
00:37:45
Speaker
um Awareness is always key. Yes, definitely. Definitely true. um ah So my next flash point. Matt is a familiar one, I'm sure. I know that ah Tim Kenny touched on it as well in his in his podcast. um ah And it's it's further investigations, a very sort of vexed um topic. And again, one that um there's been an array of of court cases on, um and further investigations is in, I think it's 4.9 of the home service standard. Yes. and it's It's a hot topic, this one, because it's yeah where where are you where are you covering yourself? Where are you not giving the right information to the customer? where are you yeah said yeah I'm interested to hear what you've got to say on this one. Yes. ah
00:38:38
Speaker
i think um the the The working party that that put together the the the um original edition of the Home Service Standard were very um switched on to how difficult things had become because of this uncertainty about further investigations. And you can see this in the language that's that's used in the in the Home Service Standard. It says um that the RICS member, the severe,
00:39:09
Speaker
should exercise professional judgment and must not, again, mandatory, must not call for further investigations only to cover him or herself against future liabilities. um And I hear this all the time, you know, that that i hear this um ah this this almost um constant ah anxiety about the prospect of ah of a claim.
00:39:39
Speaker
there's so much worry about that happening of being liable, of having of ending up in court, that it becomes almost sort of crippling um in terms of trying to do um ah you know a job for the for the for the client. um And what you tend to get, and historically this was always the case, you you've got at reports that were so laden with caveats and um and again again back covering that the the report often was of no use two um ah to to to the to the consumer or the other client. um And a very common way to sort of get yourself out of this situation and say, oh, you might want to just bring in a specialist here or make some further investigations there.
00:40:37
Speaker
So the whole service standard really try to cut that down and say, and ah again, it's some it's very clear that that you must not do that as ah as a means to to just protect yourself from liability. That's not a good um or professional approach to adopt at all.
00:40:56
Speaker
Is there guidance, do you think, on where where the balance is? Because I suppose you know you can see can there's some that um might make sense. and yeah that the The ground's heavily dipping around the drains. You might want to get a a CCTV train survey to establish if it's cracked and broken, because obviously you can't see that, that might but that might make sense. But when it comes to um like the electrics, for example, you know they're not, surveyors aren't qualified electricians, so they're not going around checking all the electrical points and everything else. They can do a visual Um, so again, do you, do you put in a, uh, you know, a, a seeking electrician's advice on that, or I suppose but where, where do we draw the line on what's appropriate? and Well, that's the, that's the nub of it. I i don't think with, with having the, uh, the home service standard up and running now for the last, uh, three, four years, um, I don't think there's that there's a clear
00:41:55
Speaker
sense of of where that um balance ah is to be is to be struck. like It's really difficult, and there's no clear answer, but it's a matter for each surveyor's professional judgment. And there are different there are different views on that. You can be more cautious and recommend more, or you can be more robust and any you maybe maybe even speculate and try to restrict thee the recommendation of of further investigations. um ah There will be quite a kind of um ah generous allowance for both approaches, I think, for the cautious and for the more ah robust. um Because remember that these cases tend to get some resolved um by reference to
00:42:51
Speaker
expert evidence. So you're youre you generally safe if an expert would say, well, look, this was a decision that, um you know, a significant number of of surveyors in the same sort of ah area would which very reasonably have made or decided on. um So you're protected, you're you're within that that sort of broad standard.
00:43:19
Speaker
you'll be fine and not negligent. Yes, I think it's, it's about, as you say, finding a balance with, um yeah if you're giving too many general caveats, there's no reason to suspect something, you know, the drains look, the the ground looks fine above the drains, it's not sort of dropping away. um There's no real real reason to suggest getting an you an expert in to check that. So that becomes unreasonable, I think. and Anyway, it's it's about ensuring as an industry, it doesn't become to a point where consumers go, there's no value in the majority of home surveys, I'm not going to get one because then the industry can't operate then. you have to You have to be able to have a report that someone is confident to put out there um saying, yeah, this is what I've seen. This is a true reflection of now. And um yeah know you don't need to go and get 10 other people in after me. um Maybe just one for that area. A lot of it I think is about confidence is a good word. Professional confidence, you know you're qualified, you're trained, you're able to do this.
00:44:16
Speaker
just do it. um you know That's what you're being paid for. Even if you're wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean you're negligent. um you know and ah need You need to be really seriously off the off the pace and off the mark to to be found negligent. So it it is just about having more confidence when you're reporting and yeah yeah in your abilities and your training. Shall we touch on that point then? to where the where the line goes between something being wrong and something being negligent. Because I think that's probably that possibly will help people understand why yeah where the realities fall and how worried do they need to be day to day when they're giving a confident of opinion, I suppose. Yes, I mean, is this if there is a difference um in this context between making a mistake and being negligent. It's quite a big difference, actually. It's hard it's hard to be negligent. um
00:45:12
Speaker
ah But you're only negligent if um you you make a mistake that no other ah ordinarily competent severe would have made in the same in the same circumstances. um So it's this idea of a professional body um of surveyors.
00:45:38
Speaker
um If a good number of that professional body would have reported or inspected in exactly the same way or in a comparable way, then you're safe. Albeit you've made a mistake, it's not negligent for that reason. So you're you're within this within the standard. um But if you were to ask this professional body um and well,
00:46:08
Speaker
ah Would anyone have um reached this decision on in these circumstances on these on these facts at the time with this type of property? And if no one puts their hand up, then that's an indicator that you're very probably negligent. And the way you sort of weigh the judges um um reach a decision on these questions is by relying on expert witnesses.
00:46:38
Speaker
um So expert witnesses come along and speak as to what the body of professional opinion is about this particular ah aspect or decision that was made. So that's the difference between just making a mistake and actually being negligent and liable in court. Really useful to know that, I think. yeah And that context gives you a bit of more confidence to to put things into reports and not have to caveat because you understand, yeah, I think Most people would come up with the same conclusion, that's that's safe to go. Yeah, so kind of a like a like a safety in numbers type of um mindset, really. Yeah, definitely, not alone. Exactly. Perhaps before we come on to potential potential case studies, are there there other any other flashpoints? Just one ah last one that I've mentioned. um yeah And it's, again, there's been a few cases historically that just makes me think that this is um
00:47:35
Speaker
where worth some focusing on, and it's to do with the um the grounds of the property, so outside the property, garden, um general grounds in the area. And if um if you look on pages 32 and 33 of the Home Service Standard,
00:47:59
Speaker
um ah this is This is the part that that gives you a description of of the extent of your inspection that's expected, um depending on whether it's a level one, a level two, or a level three. um And i'm I'm looking here at the at the grounds. So obviously, if it's if it's a just um a level one, um the inspection of the grounds is it can be quite cursory.
00:48:31
Speaker
that's anticipated. um But if you get through to level three, um the requirement is that you should perform a comprehensive inspection of the grounds.
00:48:43
Speaker
um ah And the the reason why I think this is important is that there have been a few cases about not weed, we've talked about not weed and things like that, and what's growing in the garden.
00:49:01
Speaker
um but there's also been some cases about ah what's going on in the adjoining property and the boundary of the property and how the threat from a property that you're not inspecting that's next door or neighboring or adjacent, how that impacts any warning that you need to give in your report about the subject property. um Now, again, this is a really difficult balancing exercise.
00:49:30
Speaker
I think because you're not, yeah it's hard to know what the limits are. You know, are you expected to go on, and say on a level three, are you expected to try to get access to the neighbouring property? um What if a kind of a retaining wall is located on, you know, the the ah ah right at the boundary of the property at the back? um Are you Are you supposed to go and inspect it from the other side and things like that? So lots of question marks there, which gives rise to uncertainty from from a legal liability point of view. But I have noted that quite a few cases have arisen that have concerned what's going on on the periphery and not on the subject property.
00:50:25
Speaker
I suppose but that what what becomes interesting with this is if you're starting to do more um yeah historically, we've had you you might look at something from the ground with binoculars, then pole cameras and potentially now drones can go even higher. sea yeah where where does the Where does the boundary sit in terms of obviously of your potential viewpoint has now expanded ah much wider. and so Again, if you can see stuff, what where do you where do you cut that off? you got see ah You're not going to see Japanese knotweed from ah five doors away far three from a drone. but something along those lines. you know If you can see something five doors down, where do you draw the line? um No, that's a goodness that's a good point. That's a's a really good point. I hadn't hadn't quite thought of that, but I guess it it must be right that if it's so much easier now with the use of drones, drone technology, to check what might be going on in the environs um and on the periphery, then um I think a lot of judges would expect that it's
00:51:23
Speaker
is easier than therefore you should you should do it and that the this this sort of um the extent of your inspected your expected inspection um is is greater. Now, with if if you're using a drone, that is. um It might also mean you know you need to you need to up that um ah fee that you're yeah that you quoting or estimating for the for the client. and because you know you are assuming a sort of a broader responsibility with the with the job. Yeah, true.
Litigation Trends and Economic Impact
00:51:59
Speaker
so Rather than it being a ah freebie that comes with it it with the risk that's yeah the extra risk risk that it brings on, plus the licensing and you know purchase of the drone, et cetera, it's worth boosting the fee for that. yeah yeah there yeah Many reasons to push the fee up, for that justifiably, I think, for that one.
00:52:15
Speaker
So those those are my flashpoints, but definitely something to think about there. Now, obviously, the standard is is is really um quite a detailed document, but I think if if surveyors could zone in on those on those um ah ah sections that identify, then that would go a long way to ah to building a more sort of protective outlook as they're doing jobs. Definitely.
00:52:45
Speaker
That was a really fascinating oversight, I think. So yeah, I won't list out all of these but in the summary. I'll get people to listen and get the details. Yeah, good plan. um Perfect. So I think what might be interesting to cover is case studies. You mentioned, or sent a couple through before we came onto the podcast. um I suppose you with the flashpoints, you mentioned summer more future, so like the environmental aspects and some might be more current. So are there they're certain trends you're seeing in the type of cases that are coming to court? And is there a trend in terms of there are more li more litigation going on at the moment or standard amount? Well, since we since we last since we had our last session, Matt, I think ah I was mentioning then, maybe it was about 18 months ago, um I was mentioning then that there seemed to be more cases
00:53:40
Speaker
coming through. um And the the change that we were seeing was um ah less missed defects type claims and ah and many more valuation claims. um right yes you did yeah And that trend has has intensified, I would say. So there are now um ah I mean, i'm I'm trying to track them all, and this is just claims in the in the High Court, um and I'm tracking, this is over the last two or three or four years, I'm tracking about 20 cases at the moment. A good portion of those have already settled, um but they have obviously gone as far as being issued in the High Court, and
00:54:36
Speaker
have gone through some of the initial stages of the of the litigation before they've resolved. um Of those 20 or 25, um move most of the majority of them, I would say, are valuation cases, and they tend to be very large commercial valuation cases. um ah So that's the that's the the the current trend very much.
00:55:06
Speaker
Um, now, so that's 20, 25 cases. And those are just the ones I've been able to find out about. Um, uh, maybe just to give you a comparison, maybe 10 years ago, they would have only been, I would say five cases. So it's quite a bit not quite a big in the change.
00:55:31
Speaker
um What do you think is driving that? is that Because we we touched on last time that it tends to be when the market um or the economy is dipping perhaps and money's tighter, that that tends to come through. is that with Although they're more commercially focused, is that the same type of reason that might be going on? I think it must it must still be... the The usual driver is an economic backdrop or an economic factor behind it and I think being that there's so many of these um ah ah property developments that have gone that have gone wrong um have not come to fruition in a field for one reason or another. And this is the kind of um attempt by by suing the professional, this is the attempt to tv salvage something from that from a field development or an investment or a project. So I think that's ah that's a lot. It's a big um explaining factor there. um But otherwise, I don't
00:56:30
Speaker
don't really know. Sometimes these the the answer doesn't reveal itself until many, many years later when you can look back. So we're in the we're in the sort of midst of it at the moment, and it's quite difficult to get a handle on what's and what's behind it. But there's definitely this this very notable uptick in the number of claims. um And i'm I'm only talking about high court claims. You know, if you've got 25 big cases in the high court, um I'm imagining there'll be hundreds and hundreds in the county courts throughout the country. um So it's some he's really a sizable change. Yeah. but what's the What's the typical reason with valuations? Is it um overvaluation, undervaluation or? um over almost Almost always overvaluation. And really surprisingly, um the the extent of the overvaluation is in the cases I've i've been um just investigating.
00:57:29
Speaker
It's huge, you know, it's like um the um they reported ah the valuation was nine million and and the the expert that comes along and says, oh, no, actually, the the the true value they should have reported was one million. So it's huge, huge differentials, which indicates that either claimants have got it completely wrong or it's a very sort of opportunistic claim, or the surveyors who are in the hot seat are miles and miles off off the mark. um We talked about this idea of the professional ah body of opinion, but that that is the kind of extreme differential that um that we were talking about to ah to find yourself in and a claim situation in the in the high court. So these are these are really big claims on the numbers and
00:58:26
Speaker
the the costs are, ah the lawyers costs are on them are huge. So yeah, they're sleepless nights. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, it's not something I'd want to be involved in. No.
00:58:39
Speaker
no no um So ah so that's that that's the um that's what we're seeing in court at the moment is um a lot of these big cases working themselves through um ah So I think there's there's a couple of really interesting um cases going to the Court of Appeal next year in 2025. And those are helpful because like Hart and Large, they give the cave an extra layer of guidance to surveyors in practice and everyone can pore over the detail and see but what went wrong on those particular cases and how they can avoid repeating the
00:59:24
Speaker
repeating the errors. So even those even though they will be mainly e valuation cases, there'll be a lot lot of learning points that will emerge from the judgments when they become available.
00:59:35
Speaker
Definitely, definitely. But it sounds like if you're mainly doing defect-based surveys rather than the evaluation ones, then going back to what we were saying about having the confidence to not caveat everything out of the report, if you're confident that what you're giving is reasonable advice that everyone would give, then you're not likely to come up against a claim, at least not one that reaches that level of terms of high court. I think that's right. um the the The one sort of case study I did just want to ah to mention um is is a defect case actually.
01:00:08
Speaker
um So this is the this is the one that is still ongoing. I'm going to be a little bit careful because this is this is ah not a case that has reached trial yet. So it's um it's still halfway through. um But it has unfortunately, for those concerned, it has been reported in the in the Daily Mail um And they've not been very sensitive about but the read-through.
Complex Defect Cases and ADR
01:00:40
Speaker
But it's it's kind of interesting at this kind of salacious level. But this is the the case against where the claimants are of Mr. miss where and And they're suing a couple, Mr. and Mrs. Winsey.
01:01:03
Speaker
and a firm of surveyors. And this, the property was um a former coach house. um I'm just trying to remember where where it was. I think it was Reading. reading um the the old vi The old vicarage, it was called. And the purchase price was,
01:01:32
Speaker
two million, so it's quite a nice um heritage property. um And this case is interesting because, and it brings us back to one of our earlier points about concealing, um ah because the the allegation the the case here, ah the severe has been sued but also the sellers have been sued. um And what the ah the the the claimant, I think it's missed Mr. Gore, he alleges that um but the sellers who were Mr. and Mrs. Winsey, that they made a misrepresentation and that that Mr. Gore only bought the property because he
01:02:28
Speaker
um believed and he understood, relying on the representations of the seller, he understood that it didn't have any significant defects. um And the allegation is that that was untrue. um And that the the allegation is, it's only an allegation,
01:02:50
Speaker
um is that the fact of the matter was that the property suffered extensively from dry rot and also that it was structurally unsound um ah and that the winsies, the sellers failed to disclose this. And there is a sense in the case that they actively concealed, allegedly actively concealed um the the the existence of the of the works. Now, really important to say that
01:03:26
Speaker
the ah the sellers completely deny this, flatly deny this. So this is still a case to be tested at trial. um so But it's interesting, and there may not be a trial because it made to settle, but the facts are interesting about the interplay between the severe and they and the the sellers and you know the questions that the severe was expected to ask. And, you know, Cootie notwithstanding,
01:03:57
Speaker
the limited information he had, um could he have discovered, could he have served as that safety net for the for the purchaser um in these kind of circumstances? um And how extensive did he need to did he need to be? um you know He presumably wasn't on notice of any kind of um ah previous works to the property. Should he have discovered them irrespective of um what the sellers were and weren't saying to him or to the purchaser. So some really interesting issues there um and you've also got this idea of it was ah kind quite a kind of special, unusual, complex heritage property.
01:04:51
Speaker
um i I don't know about the surveyor's particular particular experience, but again, that might be a factor here because this was, you know, not a run-of-the-mill inspection by any means. and And so I hope the surveyor would have asked himself, you know, is this within my the range of my capabilities before before he went out?
01:05:14
Speaker
um ah So to being selfish about it would be really interesting if this if this did reach trial because there's a lot of a lot of very typical issues that that the judge would need to work through. um There are experts involved on both sides. um So it would be fascinating to see how it um what the result was at trial and how all the evidence panned out. Yeah, from an academic perspective and understanding Yeah, sort of the nuances of it, that would that would be very interesting. Obviously for all the parties, you want them to be able to resolve it as quickly, as easily as possible. but But yeah, from that perspective, it would be very interesting. I think, I suppose it it ties, yeah, nicely what you said in terms of the surveyor understanding their experience levels and whether that that was a factor, because that would be very interesting to know. And then it and then it comes down to if they if they are experienced and that's the type of work they do,
01:06:13
Speaker
where Where do you draw the line on what you should be able to pick up in terms of what what potential works might have been done without having any knowledge of that property? Because I suppose arguably an older property, you you should be able to ah expect that work will have been done over time and and what type of things might affect timber or but other other fabrics of the building. um So yes it's a yes, a very interesting one in terms of yeah what what should have been picked up, not picked up, what's covered, what isn't Yes, and it's it's um almost a perfect case. i've I actually um obtained a copy of the of the each party's statement of case. So they're they're pleadings in the in the litigation. So I could see what arguments were being, what positions were being advanced by the seller, by the claimant purchaser, and also by the severe. I know for the severe,
01:07:12
Speaker
he's taking every point that you would expect him to. So he's referring to his terms of engagement and any limitations that are in there at the start. um He did get his terms of engagement signed in advance. And it looks like he had his processes all nicely ordered, as we would want to see.
01:07:31
Speaker
um ah but it yeah So there's maybe four or five very typical issues um that um that almost always crop up in these severe cases in court, but it would be, um it would be useful to have a trial on this because you would get some, I'm sure you would get some developing of the of the law in this in this area for the guy. But but you're you're right, we can't so wish for that. im mean I hope i hope they do get it they do get it settled. Yeah, but I know exactly what you're trying to say. and You mean in the nicest of ways. Yes. From an educational perspective. Yes, exactly.
01:08:11
Speaker
Awesome. And I think that's been really interesting. I think we'll probably go straight into this last bit then rather than a separate topic. But um ah one thing we we we discussed before ham was how ah mediation and alternative to dispute resolution are um being used more in, um or the role is changing at least in smaller cases. So we've been focusing on some bigger cases so far.
01:08:34
Speaker
ah How is that changing? every thankss we did We did a ah ah podcast um on on ADR ah um in and in our previous season, so it'd be interesting to sort of hear about how ah yeah how that's changing and how it's affecting whether things go to court or not and all that type of stuff. Yes, and I did see that earlier podcast. It was, was it Christine O'Rourke? Yeah.
01:08:59
Speaker
um I thought I thought that was excellent. Chris, he made a number of really good points about ADR force in in a severe context. um um So I can maybe just update a little on on that um and um ah give everyone an idea of where we are now, because there has been quite a significant change um ah in that in that the rules, the court rules are are um being updated from the first of next month, so the first of October. um And the reason it's significant is that the with the rule change, the court is going to have the um ability to effectively force parties to engage with with each other and try to find a
01:09:59
Speaker
a settlement to their dispute to use to use ADR, um even if they're unwilling to do so. um Now, it's it's quite a change um and it has ah kind of has access to justice implications um ah behind it. um ah So it will be interesting to see how this this develops. um But just to give you an idea of of how this has really come about, the the courts at the moment, um it's it's terrible. It's a broken, it's a broken system. I mean, the NHS is, you know, there are lots of talk about that. There was the report ah yesterday that came out on the state of the and NHS and lots of talk about it being on life support and all of this sort of stuff and and and needing to be needing a ah new prescription
01:10:59
Speaker
um The court system, I'm afraid, today is is much this much the same on its on its knees. the the The backlog is you know into years, 18 months, at least before you get into and into in front of a judge. um So the system needs to find a way to um ah to take the pressure off.
01:11:24
Speaker
and um the the The solution that's been come up that has the courts have come up with, the ah Ministry of Justice has come up with, is to push disputes back to the parties themselves to try and resolve um themselves without the court system needing to be involved.
01:11:48
Speaker
um ah So the judges are now going to have the ah ability to as I say to compel parties to engage in a mediation or another form of ADR that doesn't involve a trial in front of a judge. um What's the incentive for the parties involved in that? Is it but is it looked badly on when you if you do eventually go to court, if you've shown very little engagement with that process and the other party has tried to engage? Would it work against you at that point? Yes. so if if um and this is This has always been the case really.
01:12:33
Speaker
if a party has been unreasonable about, um so let's let's take a scenario where a claimant um brings a claim against a severe and i' there's some exchanges between the parties about their respective positions. And then after a month or so, the the claimant says, well, look we clearly disagree about this, why don't we try a mediation between us and see if we can see if we can ah reach a resolution. If the severe on their side says, no, no, I'm confident I've done nothing wrong here, I'm not paying you anything, um and just um declines to take up that offer of ADR or offer of mediation, then
01:13:30
Speaker
um There can be consequences to that um in that if it then goes into the court system and the judge ah reaches their decision at the end of the process and then discovers that you know all of this all of this rigmarole could have been avoided if if only the parties had actually had their mediation at that early stage. All that vast amounts of lawyers fees could have been avoided as well.
01:13:59
Speaker
so the there's There's always been power to make a ah penalty award in costs, which will really hurt on the on your sort of offending party.
01:14:14
Speaker
yeah um yeah But up until now, courts haven't had the ability to force parties too um ah to participate in um an ADR process against a will.
01:14:32
Speaker
um whether Whether judges will actually make these awards um or these orders is still to remains to be seen, but they do have the power from the 1st of October to to do it.
01:14:45
Speaker
um I can see it happening because you as you say in the news, you're seeing how the the courts are very under pressure, the prisons having to release people early to try and free up space and otherwise the court cases can't go ahead so because there's yeah there's no repercussion afterwards. It does seem like quite a quite a bad position that the justice system is in at the moment. oh so It really is. I've never known it as bad as it is now. It is broken. There's no doubt about it and something needs to be done.
01:15:14
Speaker
And there's lots and lots of positives about this emphasis on ADR, lots of positives in that is as Christine was saying in her session, you know it's it's um much, much quicker as a process to get to a resolution. It's um much, much less expensive. Often it doesn't need lawyers to be involved um and the parties can just um um come to terms themselves. But it is, you know, that The downside or maybe the reservations about it are that, well, what but what does it mean when the judge says, well, you've got to you've you've got to engage in this process? Does that mean you have to make an offer? if you If you're the claimant, do you have to accept less than your claim is worth? If you're the defendant or the surveyor here, do you need to you need to pay something towards a claim
01:16:14
Speaker
where you don't think you're youre really liable just to just to get it resolved. And if you don't pay anything, does that mean you're failing feeling to engage as the rules require? Yeah, that's true. Because it sounds actually quite simple but at first. You go, well, you go you get you go have that conversation and then you you both come to a some sort of agreement and then actually it moves away. But actually the reality is,
01:16:37
Speaker
um If you don't agree on something in the first place, and if it comes down to something that is, I don't think I should be paying something. It's hard to show you've actively engaged beyond, you know, because youre if you're maintaining your position, you can, you can, you can engage in terms of providing good justification for that, I suppose. But yes, that could be seen as a weak level of engagement, perhaps. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yes, you're right. And so I think I think that was the, um,
01:17:06
Speaker
i was I was really just wanting to lay the ground. So I think in the next couple of years, um we're going to see a much ah greater emphasis on parties having to or really being strongly encouraged to resolve their disputes and not litigate them. um I think it's almost as if litigating or taking your case to court for a judgment is going to be seen as a kind of a ah a social ill almost. um It's a bit like, you know, and when we were in the pandemic and there was just a sense, well, you shouldn't really use the resources of the NHS unless you really, really need to. It's the same it's the same kind of sense here. And, you know, it's lots of guilt-lating if you're not really making a proper go of um
01:18:04
Speaker
an effort to get a case settled. um um yeah You get labelled as unreasonable. and yeah You can. you can but it's I don't want to detract from from all the benefits because you know it's better it's better to avoid um litigation or getting anywhere close to court because it's a terrible experience and you know I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Conclusion and Contact Information
01:18:27
Speaker
But at the same time,
01:18:30
Speaker
a ah Most of my clients don't just want to pay out because it's because it's expedient to do so. that you know they feel They feel quite strongly that they have a case. They want the case to be put forward. They don't just want to just don't want to fold or capitulate because it's convenient and thing the thing will be ended. you know that That does really start to grate with a sense of justice, I think, or injustice.
01:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, and and you don't want to potentially encourage um people chanceing it because it's easy just to give something back. when Yeah, you'll be perceived as a soft touch. That's always the the worry.
01:19:12
Speaker
um but um yeah so that is No easy answer noisy answer, but I think it's ah going to be a quite noticeable sea change in these next few years. that's So um a lot more um talk of ADR and other ways to um resolve disputes rather than just going to court.
01:19:35
Speaker
i Yeah, I get the i get the impression that overall it should be, um this this is hopefully my the right prediction, but that it it should be a positive step in terms of um the the majority of things being able to get sorted outside of court. Obviously, but it will not work for 100% of cases, of course not, but um yeah, but hopefully it it means that things can be resolved, as you say, more quickly, more more less expensively, um and and yeah, to streamline processes, and so people can just move on then.
01:20:03
Speaker
Yes. and And you said earlier matters. I mean, no no system is perfect. So I'm not pretending that going to judges get it right and or that that's a perfect system of justice. So it's it's just um is none of it is is is ideal or perfect. And um the the CEDAR adjudication scheme, which is in place for surveyors um is is, I think, a really good one. It's free. It deals with cases up to £25,000. It's quick.
01:20:33
Speaker
um It's confidential, that's the other thing. um You know, you keep this out of court. um So I would i would encourage some surveyors to um embrace that as a process because it's it's much more streamlined. And and I think most think the stats on it are that most decisions go in favour of this the surveyor and not in favour of the complainant.
01:21:00
Speaker
interesting having some confidence in that system. Yeah, definitely. And then the confidence to again, go and do a good job with a report that can be relied on. Yeah. Yes, quite. Awesome. I think it's been a really, really fascinating episode, hearing all the flashpoints and some of the stuff that's going on and where the future is going in terms of the processes. So thanks very much for coming on today and discussing it again. And I'm sure we'll touch face again in a couple of years and see how things have moved on with who you are. Yes, a pleasure. I can go back for a third episode. Definitely. If anyone wants to get in touch just like last time, what's the best way to drop your message if they have got any concerns or queries? Well, I'm very active on LinkedIn, so I would encourage anyone to just connect with me on LinkedIn and message me there. There's a lot of content and I'm happily
01:21:53
Speaker
always happy to engage and keep my finger on the pulse as to what's going on in the profession. So um that's the best place to find me, I think. Awesome. Well, thanks again. And I look forward to catching up soon. Okay. Thanks, Matt.