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Episode 41: The Realities of Spray Foam Insulation with Steve Hodgson, Steve Hodgson Building Consultancy
51 Plays9 months ago
In this episode of Survey Booker Sessions, host Matt Nally interviews Steve Hodgson from Steve Hodgson Building Consulting. They dive into the intricacies of spray foam insulation, exploring common misconceptions, installation challenges, and the future of polyurethane foam in the construction industry. The episode provides valuable insights for surveyors, homeowners, and industry professionals about the pros and cons of spray foam insulation and its impact on property valuations and mortgage approvals.
Key Points
Introduction to Steve Hodgson: Steve introduces himself and his extensive experience in the damp control and building consulting industry.
Discussion on Spray Foam: The episode covers the history, benefits, and potential pitfalls of spray foam insulation in buildings.
Challenges in the Market: Steve highlights the challenges surveyors face when dealing with properties with spray foam, including market misconceptions and lender hesitations.
Future of Polyurethane Foam: A discussion on the evolving role of polyurethane foam in new builds and its potential for sustainable construction.
Industry Training and Courses: Steve talks about available training courses for surveyors to better understand and evaluate spray foam installations.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Survey Booker Sessions
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Survey Booker Sessions. Tune in to hear from people working in a range of industries and roles to provide you ideas that you can take away and use in your own business. I'm your host Matt Nally, the founder and director of Survey Booker, which is the leading CRM and survey management system for survey surveyors.
Steve Hodgson's Background
00:00:15
Speaker
On this week's episode, we have Steve Hodgson from Steve Hodgson Building Consulting. So thank you very much for coming on. No problem, Matt. it's Pleasure to be here. Do you want to introduce yourself first and then and then I'll come on to sort of yeah what we're covering today. Oh gosh, i I hate this sort of thing. Yeah, my name is Steve Hodgson. I've been around um sort of the damp control industry in one form or another since I was 19 years old and sort of after a After a decade in contracting, I went to the Property Care Association and a bit of greasy pole climbing and a bit backstabbing. I ended up being the CEO and I left that position in um in November last year and I've really gone back to what what what I think I was always made to do.
00:00:58
Speaker
which is kind of rooting around in buildings and taking all the things that I've learned for for all those years at the PCA, learning from other people's mistakes and applied them to to
The Spray Foam Controversy
00:01:08
Speaker
my own business. now So yeah, I'm out on my own and loving every minute of it. Awesome, awesome. Well, one of the things I know you covered quite a lot, um or correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you did, was spray foam. And I wanted to come back to this. I know it's been a topic historically that's been covered quite a lot. And then like everything, something else comes up like rat concrete or I don't know, new standards, something gets in the way of of that the the noise around it. And interestingly, it's popped up again this week in the news with you know the reports of lenders not lending on homes with spray foam. So I think across the episode, we'll talk about types of spray foam and removal and the future of it. But yeah, so should we start with we start with that that piece that's just come out around people not lending and then come on to sort of the types of spray foam and risks and realities around it?
Lenders' Policies on Spray Foam
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. so
00:01:57
Speaker
um I was approached by a journalist um probably about three months ago originally who um was interested because it's been kicking around. It's never really gone away and people are being affected by it and consumer ah protection programs are getting calls from from concerned consumers who feel as though they've been ripped off in various ways and are struggling to sell or process their properties or raise capital.
00:02:21
Speaker
So a journalist gave me a call and asked if I could provide them with any technical background and chat about it. What was kind of interesting about this one is that she approached it by speaking to the top 20 lenders and finding out what their attitude towards polyurethane foam was.
00:02:39
Speaker
um And she found that pretty much everybody said that they would deal with it, they would they would lend on it, but but actually when it really came down to it, when you looked um inside the story, that the the limitations and the expectations of those lenders meant that really there's only three or four that would um sort of actively, sort of without without reservation, um accept the information that was being provided and provide provide
Misconceptions About Spray Foam
00:03:10
Speaker
loans. But you know that that the underlying sort of story here is that that lenders, and particularly equity release lenders, are still incredibly nervous of the long term, as well as some of the short term implications of of of badly designed and badly installed polyurethane fund. One interesting note you make there is badly designed, bad badly installed.
00:03:33
Speaker
is Is that to say then actually spray the the headline you get of all spray foam is bad to simplify it? Is that a valid not valid statement, valid a claim? No, matt absolutely no. it's not It's not valid and it's not correct. um And it's and it's it's not helpful either.
Advocacy for Polyurethane Foam
00:03:51
Speaker
Polyurethane foam is... Okay, let's sort of dispel a few myths. I'm not anti-foam. I'm not anti-polyurethane. As a concept and as a project, it's it's absolutely brilliant because it does everything that it says on the tin.
00:04:06
Speaker
um You can't blame a product for being used inappropriate. it It does fill gaps. It does allow you to have a choice between materials that are highly moisture resistant where you want it to be and highly vapor resistant in other other other places while being an extremely good insulator and being um you know dimensionally very stable and chemically very stable. So it has lots of really, really, really good attributes.
00:04:35
Speaker
And um what's unfair and and and unjustified is saying that all polyurethane foam in all situations is a bad idea. It has some incredibly useful applications. I looked at a property only last week for a gentleman who had spent nearly a million and a half pounds completely remodeling his house. And as part of an architect design solution for energy performance, the roof was completely full of polyurethane foam.
00:05:01
Speaker
But what was inside that was an air management system that meant that there was no risk of vapor drive through this material and the correct materials had been used, so the correct type of foam in the correct installations. And yet he was trying to raise some money on a building that he owned outright um and was told by a valuer that for mortgage purposes, his very expensive house was being given a zero valuation for mortgage purposes.
00:05:27
Speaker
Now what's kind of interesting is and what's useful and where I you know quite enjoy, still enjoy getting to grips with PU foam is being able to go to a property like that and um being able to do the work and do the observations to absolutely show a lender that this is not a problem and actually I'm perversely if you damage the phone if you take the phone out you actually have a fundamentally ruining effect on the building because you'll damage its ability to handle moisture you also don't damage its ability to to handle heat as well so no situation like that this gentleman was running around like a headless chicken wonder whether he's gonna have to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds taking his roof off.
Foam Removal Industry's Rise
00:06:10
Speaker
And the truth was take damaging the foam would have absolutely mulled all the work that he'd done. if It would be far bigger than just the roof. So so there's lots of installations that that are are right and correct. And there's lots of uses of the foam in particular situations that work. So you know it's not it's not a bad product. um it's It's a product that has, unfortunately, in some so cases, been used poorly and inappropriately and and and and installed um ins installed despite or because of a an idea of you know driving sales rather than driving quality in some some some areas and that's that's what's killed it, that's what's hurt the product.
History of Spray Foam
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah and on the flip side you've now got the
00:06:53
Speaker
the other industry coming up of the removal side um and again that's got to be done in the right way if it's it might be an appropriate installation someone's coming in to remove it but that's possibly a something for later. Well Matt you know you say it's for later but but you know it's useful to say that anybody who knocks on your door telling you that they're going to evaluate the foam in the roof um is probably not going to do that that they're going to give you a price for removal irrespective of what they find and yeah that It is worth mentioning at this point because it's's it's really the the dark side of what's going on at the moment and the very negative byproduct of actually you know trying to set the clock straight on what's good and what's bad is that there are people moved in taking advantage of of of that negative publicity and and ripping people off again. But yeah, perhaps we should park it there. and
00:07:42
Speaker
Come back to me a bit later on. Go on to it when you feel like it, yeah. Perfect. ah I suppose ah around the sort of, and you know, installation and and and so on, is is all spray foam bad in terms of the actual type of spray foam and the different types? And is it mainly then just down to installation that's the problem?
00:07:59
Speaker
No, something else no no not no, neither of those things really. i ah i'm I'm not going to be drawn into vilifying any one type of phone. I guess that it's maybe worthwhile sort of going back going back to sort of the 80s and where I first encountered spray foam, not knowing anything like what I know now, but encountered spray foam in the sort of main streets of backstreet leads um where I was doing condition reports and timber and damp inspections as a contractor and going into roof voids of old terraced houses and finding polyurethane foam glued to the back of tiles.
00:08:38
Speaker
Now it was, you know, when it first appeared, it um certainly came onto my radar, it was being used as a means of extending the life of a failing roof. And so there's a whole bunch of work done almost from the late 80s, right through the 90s, where the principle use of polyurethane foam was a hard cell foam to extend the life of ah of a roof that was on its way out. So the the claims were things like, you know, we can apply this material, we'll give you a 25 yard gear guarantee, your roof will be maintenance free, everything's great.
00:09:11
Speaker
And to be fair, it's a little bit like, and I'm making myself unpopular by saying so, it's a bit like the rock the rack thing, isn't it? you know Rack was ever ah only ever supposed to be a short-term fix, a cheap short-term fix to ah to an issue. and you know Build me something at the last 25 years and then complaining after it's gone wrong after 50 is probably a little bit of a head melt. Well, actually, you know this product has done exactly what it said it was going to do for 25 years, glued the roof together.
00:09:39
Speaker
The problem is now that we're coming to the end of that period and those roofs are leaky and they're still at the end of their design life. And when water gets in to you know in in front, if you're all behind, a hard cell polyurethane foam system, which is intrinsically vapor resistance and incredibly good at at being waterproof,
00:10:03
Speaker
then any water that gets in is held against the rafters and that leads and can lead to to accelerated decay in the roof. so It's not easy, however, to just say hard cell foam is bad. Hard cell foam used as a glue to stick a roof together doesn't feel as a surveyor and somebody who you know thinks about moisture and timber and timber moisture and how they relate like a good idea. Nor does kind of trying to fix a leak from the inside of ah ah you know from the wrong side of a leaking system.
00:10:37
Speaker
um it It doesn't feel like the right thing to do. So it's not that the foam is bad, it's just that using a waterproof foam on a leaky roof where you've got timber in the way just seems like a dumb thing to do.
00:10:49
Speaker
so Scroll forward to 2024 with those sorts of installations it's not really surprising that surveyors acting on behalf of purchasers would caution against buying a roof that they know they've had a short-term fix done on it and that's probably coming to the end of its life and is very very vulnerable to leaking water.
00:11:08
Speaker
So on that side of things, that whole kind of historic, um if you like, reservoir of old installs using hard cell foam probably need to be cycled out. um They don't knowd know probably about it. They should be.
Evaluating Spray Foam Installations
00:11:22
Speaker
Was it ever a good idea? Probably not. and if so It was a dumb idea.
00:11:26
Speaker
um But, you know, could you be blamed for buying it if you were if you were and um a relatively technically ignorant consumer being told that you can put off, you know, spending tens of thousands of pounds on a new roof by squirting some foam around the inside that was going to glue it all together and give you a happy life for a bit. So you you've you've kind of dealt with that really roughly and and and quite, quite um you know, dismissively as part from hard cell phone.
00:11:52
Speaker
what What then happened was that the insulative qualities of the phone came to the fore, um the issues with hard cell phone were were lurking about, but then we started using open cell phone primarily as an insulative material. And if you look at the um in detail at the manufacturer's own product approval system product approval certificates from both the British Board of Agreement and Keywork,
00:12:21
Speaker
There is there is an understanding even in those earliest documents that you have to be careful because you know day one lesson one that building college when i was probably nineteen years old.
00:12:33
Speaker
went something along the lines of you don't put um vapor permeable insulation um or ah over a vapor barrier on the cold side of insulation, because if you do, you get a problem. So there was an already a recognition, even in the earliest certificates of condensation risk with that sort of buildup of materials. So there was there was a there was an understanding that you should be applying vapour permeable foam to vapour permeable backings and also consider the amount of vapour drive into the roof and how the roof is going to manage it. So if everything had been done as as as those data sheets required and as the very good contractors knew and recognised, we wouldn't have a problem. But unfortunately,
00:13:19
Speaker
the The kind of the interpretation of what could and should be done kind of got mixed up. And then we had lots of entries into the market where actually, well, we we can do this. We can apply soft cell insulating foam, converting warm roofs.
00:13:35
Speaker
or sorry cold roofs into warm roofs we can get a bit of a gallop on here we're making lots of money um where we're actually you know improving the thermal values of some people's homes there doesn't seem to be a bad side of applying this foam to bitumen five and felts but actually there kind of always was that the problem is that you know as the the BRE, HSE rather, that um document that was published just before Easter um proved that some properties with that inappropriate build-up of a vapour, permeable foam applied either directly to the primary roof coverings or to a vapour barrier does start to generate problems in some buildings.
00:14:23
Speaker
So the cold feet, if you like, that surveyors had started to get about this kind of theoretical and practical moisture risk because of the incorrect location of vapor barriers started to started to manifest itself originally with, and as far as I could see, with the equity release companies. And the equity release companies understood that long-term, you know, chronic risk and, you know,
00:14:50
Speaker
should we be lending on a building where our stake in that building grows with time, when there is this potential for a defect that at the point at which we take control of that building, one of the major construction element elements may be may be compromised. So they walked away from it first. And that really meant, in my own interpretation of what happened, is that the rest of the the valuation and mortgage market caught a cold off the sniffle that the equity release companies had.
00:15:19
Speaker
um And so you've now got a situation where that that theory of that... build up of moisture with soft cell foam, gets tested by HSC, the information gets published and actually it shows that, and and I know it's very it's a very rough interpretation of the of the presentation, but 25% of buildings in certain parts of the the country with that make up of foam onto ah onto a onto to a high resisting underlay may be at risk of moisture build up. Who wants to take that risk?
00:15:51
Speaker
So some of the time it's cited as the reason of the for the fear is because surveyors can't see the timbers behind the phone. For me, that's kind of marginal. There's lots of things that surveyors can have an opinion on where they don't see absolutely everything.
00:16:06
Speaker
and how many surveyors look at a subfloor subflo void and let know the condition of the timbers before they'll they'll value or before they'll before they allow that to be sold and bought. yeah um So that that lack of inspection opportunity falls away, but actually what what's real and what's valuable, because you know as as a purchaser of property, I'd want my surveyor to be looking after my interests and put me on notice.
00:16:30
Speaker
of something where I had a 25% risk of failure 10 years down the future. And so actually, you know for all the gobbledygook that's talked and all the defenses of situations and the spray foam industry saying that it's not fair and it's disproportionate,
00:16:48
Speaker
that there is there is a narrative that leads us reasonably to where we are. um Whether it's gone too far, whether the pendulum swings too far one way or the other from time to time, that's open to debate, and I'm sure you can ask me questions about that. But yeah um I think I've spoken for too long and you ought to ask me another question. No, not at all. Actually, it's really interesting hearing that story from where it started and and and yeah the the change, how the misconceptions might come with it and all that stuff. stuff've done It's absolutely fascinating.
00:17:17
Speaker
i think
00:17:19
Speaker
It sort of shouts out of common misconceptions and and you potentially see people getting it right or wrong. I'm not the judge on that, um but on sort of social media posts online or different news articles. But if you're a surveyor going into a house and you're seeing spray foam, rather than this sort of immediate sort of knee-jerk reaction of, oh yeah oh my God, they're spray foam. We're gonna have to put a three on the roof and and or yeah give it a bad mortgage ah valuation.
00:17:48
Speaker
but there's what are the signs you can look for to see if it's uh are there signs you can look for to see if there's a good installation and if it's the right you know the appropriate building for it okay um yes of course there are but how do you do that and make sure that i don't sort of say something stupid that's going to provide somebody with confidence to say something that then later comes back to bite them so i've got to be careful so um the the The guidance that's out there, the multi-agency guidance that um most people know is the PCA guidance, but it isn't, um that that sets out a protocol for inspection and investigation is still um as valid as today as it was when it was produced. There's probably some room to do a little bit of tweaking if the Property Care Association wanted to do that, and I think there are some thoughts to do that.
00:18:35
Speaker
but But that sets up basically a a um a a method of looking at a building and lists the sorts of things that a surveyor ought to be looking at if they're doing an evaluation. um And so you're looking at the type of foam, the type of building and all of that kind of stuff, as well as what it's applied to. And that's really the critical element, is not necessarily what the foam is, but what it's been applied to and and how and why.
00:19:02
Speaker
um and so And so yes, there are a whole bunch of things of that nature. I guess that um all of anything that I could say about inspection protocols and how you do it and how you measure it and
Spray Foam in Modern Construction
00:19:14
Speaker
and how you go about actually fundamentally um working through that that that that protocol for investigation um falls on its bomb really if a panel surveyor is told if you see polyurethane foam hu protect us, protect yourself and walk away. um ah ah so so So yes, you know you you can potentially go and take a lump of the foam out and look what the underlay is. But you know yesterday I was with a group of surveyors and they and they reminded me very quickly, we don't do destructive tests. We can't go and grab a handful of foam and rip it out and look at what the underlay is. So actually just at that very basic
00:19:58
Speaker
basic point of kind of how do you do an investigation? It falls on its bum because I can't advocate destructive investigations to people doing condition reports. It doesn't work. And you you cannot do an evaluation unless you know what's under the phone.
00:20:13
Speaker
um So yeah, um what I would say though, is is is if you're looking at very modern buildings, and we're talking about um the sort of place I just mentioned where um as part of a fundamental complete rebuild, they were considering how they're going to get both air tightness, thermal performance, and make the MVHR system, the mechanical mechanical heat recovery ventilation system work, then then Then they take the point of view that actually, in most of those situations, that foam will have been part of the overall design calculations and moisture hydrothermal evaluations that were done by the architect. And it's probably going to be all right. If it is a building that's had, say, for example, an HBC certificate issued on it,
00:20:59
Speaker
NHBC specifically inside those um inside those product approval certificates have a requirement, for example, to put a vapour control layer in front of the phone. If you have a vapour control layer in front of the phone, it's going to be okay because you're not going to get the vapour risk. So there are certain things, particularly with those Newer installations and foam as part of the design brief from the original you know concept of the building right through to the point of delivery where in most of those situations if the work has been done half well with a decent degree of supervision and some skill and care from the from the installer that they are going to be low risk installs.
00:21:42
Speaker
um And I guess from some respects, you know, that's, that's the bit, that's the bit that kind of at the moment, I understand why, um you know, consumers are quite irritated by that, because they get a zero valuation, they find somebody like me, I tell them how much it's going to cost to tell them that they know what they've got. um And, and, and I don't mind taking the PI on because I speak to a surveyor again only a couple of weeks ago that says, how does your PI square that away? I think it's probably the least risky thing that I do when I'm doing timber and damper investigations.
00:22:18
Speaker
on on other things going on in a building or doing expert witness work, I take the point of view that that is much more risky as far as you know not knowing than doing PU foam evaluations on new buildings where everything's there for me to see. And I understand the vapour dynamics of that building because it's all set out for me. um so So on that sort of thing, I kind of get it.
00:22:42
Speaker
um on On the older stuff, at the other end of the scale, what I would say is that there's no point in me going out to look at a house an old house with hard-cell polyurethane foam applied directly to the underside of a slate roof or a tile roof. Because 99 times of out of 100, you're going to be advising a client that you should be making provision for a re-roof, because of all the reasons I've just mentioned.
Challenges with Older Installations
00:23:09
Speaker
The only bits that sit in the gray zone, if you like, are the properties that have had polytherative soft-cell polyurethane foam applied in the last few years um to an unknown underlay. And some of the time, even when you've got a vapor permeable underlay and they've done all the other things like remove the ceiling ceiling insulation so you're not getting um temperature inversions in the roof where they have truly made it a warm roof space and the ventilation in the occupied spaces below are is all is all good.
00:23:44
Speaker
They're the ones that sometimes I can write a positive report for that may on on first evaluation look as though we aren't going to touch this because it's foam. You can get those over the hump. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of properties where you've got foam that has been badly installed, so there's gaps in it.
00:24:04
Speaker
It's neither a warm roof nor a cold roof because there are so many holes in the in the system. There's insulation still left across the, you know, in some risk in some cases. and You know, it breaks my heart that I go into roof voids where the first thing I see as I stick my head through the roof is an installation certificate for 275 millimeters of rock wall that was installed under a government scheme. And the installer has happily signed it off. And I know that 275 millimeters of insulation in that roof is going to be absolutely fine to give them the thermal performance that they need. And then I look further up and then there's a layer of badly installed polyurethane foam above it.
00:24:46
Speaker
Now, that was utterly missold at the point of of installation, but often what you'll also find is they're the ones that are at risk where you're finding at this time of the year, high levels of moisture within the foam against the rafters and against the slater's lap. Now, again, I ah know I'm sat on my soapbox and I'm diatribing and rattling on, but but but let's not pretend that roofs don't go into condensation in winter anyway.
00:25:13
Speaker
because they all do and we we shouldn't be concerned of some slightly elevated moisture contents um where where there's the facility for that to burn off and it to dry out the moment the sun comes out, we get a little bit of thermal gain. The issues really are are what happens in some situations where that moisture can become cumulative because the foam is restricting that evaporation and the relative humidities in the roof are a sky high because the insulation across the ceiling has cooled the air that's gone into it. It's not removed any moisture.
00:25:43
Speaker
So you've got very cold conditions, very your high relative humidities. So the opportunities for sort of for the corrections in those high moisture contents are minimized by the makeup of the roof. And they're the they're the ones that are the the real problem children, if you like.
When to Remove Spray Foam
00:25:58
Speaker
And there's a lot of them. that' trouble fine That's That's really, really interesting hearing the difference between the ages and installations. I suppose that ties me onto my next question, which is spray foam removal.
00:26:09
Speaker
um how often is it that spray foam removal is appropriate and how often is it on the older properties that you mentioned actually just it's time for a new roof but yeah for the reasons you mentioned? Are there many cases where removal is suitable? Okay, so that's a really good question. um i I get involved either mostly on the telephone um when people are saying, I'm going to have removal. um you know Can you make sure that I'm doing the right thing? Most of the time they've already made up their minds and they're going to have it taken out because of the bad press or because of whatever and crack on.
00:26:49
Speaker
if if i'm if i'm If I'm ever in a roof doing an evaluation, and's you know the the recommendation is you have a high risk job, um you have a high risk set of circumstances, but what you have is a low moisture production because there's only two of you rattling around in this great big mausoleum, then i'll I'll tell them, at some point, you're probably going to be told you have to remove it. But actually, while you're an occupation living in the way that you do, you haven't got a high risk situation.
00:27:17
Speaker
and so I'll try and talk them down a little bit, put it off for a while. The the the foam removal stuff is is in in the most part still driven by a need to do so to satisfy a lender or to satisfy a survey surveyor um or the fact that actually ah an owner is looking after the future interests of the people that they're leaving their house to. And that happens a lot too. So I'll often say, you know, it's a risky installation, but it's a low risk occupation. You can leave it for five, you know, don't do anything, leave it, leave it to your kids to sort out. And they will utterly ignore me and say, I want it taken out. Now, is it useful? Yes, it is. Can it be done effectively? Yes, it can, but not always.
00:28:04
Speaker
The one thing that really kind of grates on me is when an installation or a foam removal company will say, we can take this out for you. And they haven't really looked at what's underneath the foam. So yeah, all right, it's a piece of um high vapor resisting underlay. But go and check it out. Don't just take a little bit off to confirm what it is. Find out how fragile it is. Because some of these underlays are really robust, and you can take the foam off relatively easily.
00:28:34
Speaker
it'll come off without damaging the underlay. I've also seen installations and also advised people not to do it because actually the the the the underlay is like gossamer. It's just so fragile that you know that the minute somebody's going to start ripping at that, the the felt's going to tear.
00:28:52
Speaker
And so they've spent five or six thousand pounds having a foam removal done only to find that the under felt is completely knackered and they're still going to have to replace the roof anyway. So it's not to say that there is no value and you should never remove because there is a whole bunch of instances where that's the right thing to do.
00:29:11
Speaker
On the flip side, there are a whole bunch where you're going to waste your money and you're just going to save yeah you'llll you'll spend money twice when you only need to suspend it once. Don't get me wrong, if you have to have a re-roof, you're going to have additional cost in both time and labour and waste disposal, but it's far, far, far better to do the job once and do both things at at the same time, if that's going to be the the obvious end conclusion at the and obvious end point anyway.
00:29:37
Speaker
um yeah I've come across installations where foam removal is dead easy because the contractors have tried to staple underlay inside um a roof that didn't originally have it. That's done all sorts of horrible things to the moisture dynamics and the way that the that the roof manages it water its water.
00:29:55
Speaker
And in those circumstances, you can just take the strip of underlay at the top and pull it off at the bottom. You can pull it right down the roof. It comes off easily. And all you've got is a way to do it in a day. So much as I'm sure you'd like me to, there isn't a yes or no response to your question.
Methods for Foam Removal
00:30:14
Speaker
Each property really should be evaluated.
00:30:17
Speaker
on its merits and that relies on surveyors understanding what they're doing, clients listening and also phone removal companies being straight with clients about what their best options are and roofers also doing that too. The one thing that I have come across and I have seen it done effectively on occasion but this is usually with high value buildings with um you know important roof coverings or very very expensive roof coverings with hard cell foam is dry ice removal and and that can be done. It's slow, it's expensive um but it is relatively precise and if you if if you do need to get what you can do is you can save otherwise unsalvageable roofing materials.
00:31:05
Speaker
I know that some people have had um dry ice removal on hard sell foam simply to get over the hump to sell a house because actually the roof still might be a bit knackered underneath it but the mortgage company will cope with that whereas they won't cope with the presence of the foam. So I do know that some vendors have gone through that process um to sell a house that's got a slightly dodgy roof but no foam in place and and that kind of you know there's ah there's a place for that too.
00:31:31
Speaker
And just very briefly, what what is dry ice removal? Is it a case of offensively freezing the foam so that it chips off? No, essentially it's it's it's just like grip blasting, but instead of the um the the the material that's used ah um as the aggregate, as the as the, what's the word I'm looking for? Can't think of it.
00:31:49
Speaker
um The stuff that does the stripping that comes out of the machine, it's it's it's it's dry ice crystals rather than rather than grit or a carborundum. I can't think of the word, it'll come back to me in a second. um but yes So that's that's all it is. so that you're You're not left with huge amounts of residues of of of the of the stripping component after after it's done. You are however left with a ah roof full of tiny little bits of sprayed polyurethane foam which sometimes gets taken out and in certain circumstances I've also seen it left in place as well. Now you could argue that it probably doesn't do very much harm if it's left in place but bloody hell does it make a mess.
00:32:32
Speaker
um I've also seen dry ice stripping where the outside of the roof has changed color. So um because it forces the the bits of polyurethane out between the tiles and you can see the one on the street where they're doing because it's got a bright yellow roof for a few days until it rains off, putting all that micro plastic crap into the water, water courses. But and that's another story. Yeah, so I'd say that's ah another scandal for the future.
Polyurethane Foam's Viability
00:32:58
Speaker
Micro polyurethane. Yeah, who knows?
00:33:02
Speaker
ah and Interesting. that That's very fascinating. My final question that I think around this topic is, is is spray foam here to stay in in its newest format? In terms of obviously you've mentioned new builds have it installed in and a much different way. is it Is that going to become more commonplace? or is it i i have ah sorry sorry you got I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that polyurethane foam is here to stay.
00:33:24
Speaker
Polyurethane foam is a technology that may well have had experienced a bump in the road. And that's and that's because, um in my view, that both the manufacturers and the installers that vested very heavily, setting yourself up as a spirit polyurethane foam applicator is not a cheap day out. It's big kit. It's big chemistry. It's a lump of investment. And unfortunately, some of the people that made those investments saw this very easy and very quick and and apparently, on the face of it, a very profitable, low-risk group to market. And it's not kind of turned out that way. But but I think it would be an absolute travesty if if if what is a really interesting, adaptable, um and an extremely useful technology gets dumped or binned or or loses it loses its way just because of an incident
00:34:18
Speaker
in its inception when it first you know really started to come into the into common parlance. I would not hesitate, and and I've said this before public and I'll say it again, I would not hesitate to buy a house where I knew polyurethane foam had been used in the walls or in the roof or in the floor in the correct way appropriately with all the right checks and balances, with the right levels of continuity and all the rest of it. Not a moment's hesitation. As I say, an incredibly good product.
00:34:47
Speaker
Where I've also seen, and you know when I was at the the Property Care Association, we invited the polyurerythhan somebody from a polyurethane foam manufacturer to to explore um the the the the uses as as ah as ah as a method of controlling water in the ground.
00:35:02
Speaker
because it's fantastic as part of a waterproofing solution. as Have you seen it used um to stabilise failing roofs where you've got asbestos fibres in a roof? so and ah but It can be used to encapsulate those materials and extend a ah ah roof that way. um it it It has ground gas protection. I've seen it used now and and I have a colleague that's using it quite on a regular basis.
00:35:28
Speaker
as part of a solution for ground grass protection in Newbuild. So we we really ought not, as ah as a construction community, to to revile this product. We should we should embrace it, but you know actually trust that the the manufacturers that are going to bring this stuff to market have learned their lesson.
00:35:48
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I suppose with all the all of the noise then around, um you know, like like the article that's come out ah this week around, you know, mortgage providers not ah not not taking on properties of ad spray foam and so on. How do you think with that conversation starts to turn? is like Do you think there's more regulation on the way around installation or is it, I don't know, is the are there different conversations going on that you think is going to shape differently?
00:36:14
Speaker
Personally, and and and maybe you know anybody from the polyurethane industry, either installers or manufacturers will cringe at this, but you know I'm allowed to say what I can say now, because i don't I don't have to think about being the CEO of the Property Care Association, but my own view, quite honestly, Matt, is that the the installation of polyurethane foam in existing roofs as a retrofit measure is a busted flush.
00:36:38
Speaker
i don't I don't think that's going to come back. I hope it doesn't come back because because actually the work that's necessary to make that right um is is is out of proportion. And the cost of doing the work and the value that you get from it is totally out of proportion with the the alternative, which is to install fiberglass across the ceiling. Now, if if if, for example, somebody wants to convert their roof into a room,
00:37:06
Speaker
Then polyurethane foam comes back into the into the fray again, but protected properly by vapor barriers as you build out that room. So if you're using that space, it's great. But I honestly think it's probably a busted flush in respect to trying to apply an insulating product.
00:37:24
Speaker
to the periphery of a building where actually you don't need to do that. And actually the most effective, cost-effective and efficient way of doing it is is insulating close to the occupied space at ceiling level and let the roof do what the roof was always supposed to do, which was get wet and dry out, which is get warm and get cold and be ventilated or or a bit scabby from time to time, but it sorts itself out. Leave that alone.
00:37:50
Speaker
um So i don't I don't necessarily think that actually there these calls for regulation on that have have have, there's no point in it because actually the confidence from the consumer has gone in respect to
Steve's Training Courses
00:38:03
Speaker
that. And so what we bringing in legislation to protect that's not there. And so, you know, if there needs to be regulation at all and the the observation of existing regulation, it's about, you know,
00:38:17
Speaker
making sure as we move forward and we adapt our buildings and make them more thermally thermally efficient, that we do that in a way that is truly sustainable, where we're using materials that don't have an effect on future generations and actually using techniques that don't cause those buildings that are ultimately terribly sustainable to be compromised by by what we're doing. So so on um on that whole kind of retrofit and energy performance piece, I don't think we've got an issue. As far as using polyurethane foam in other areas,
00:38:47
Speaker
they'll be subject to the same um the the the same levels of regulation as any other construction material. And that the world of that is currently in flux and is changing rapidly with ah with the Building Safety Act. So we're all going to have to get used to more regulation about product specification and and and how we use them and and where they're safe and where they're not. and And also when you're surveying, identifying where where those things eventually have, when when you're seeing them have been done correctly and haven't been. So yeah, it's a whole new challenge. but It's been fascinating to to cover. um Thank you very much for coming on. Do you do do you run any courses around spray foam if people want to deliver? I can um and I can deliver training to to small groups and and i and I can and I do do that. um I guess that the the the regular gig is I do a course um for the Property Care Association. I think there's one scheduled for February
00:39:45
Speaker
um So if you're if if you are an individual surveyor that wants to do something on PU foam when you want a day out, I do a day through them that's yeah it's a couple of hundred quid for the day. It's it's ah it's a nice little relaxed workshop, um lots of practicals and hands-on.
00:40:03
Speaker
you know we all get a feel for it and we kind of get to look at it and we talk about our experiences and ah it sounds like a bit of a self-help group it's slightly more than that but but it's actually ah I think you know ah ah a pretty kind of interesting day out. um So if if people are interested you know as an individual, certainly you know have a look at the PCA website and and go towards that. If there are small groups, um then i'm I'm happy to come out and and visit people and bring a car full of scabby spray foam and rotten woods and we can we can have a day looking at how we evaluate it and how you can go about sort of
00:40:39
Speaker
being slightly more relaxed about making decisions on whether it's good and it's bad because that's that's the aim really um is to yeah give people the ability to to be able to help consumers and provide them with reliable information rather than just saying no can't deal with it run away there's a few quid in it as well you know who long knows how long that kind of income stream is going to come from polyurethane foam evaluation it's not going to last forever but but at the moment i can't meet the demand that i'm facing i'll tell you that much Awesome. what if you And you've got a real passion for it. It's been a pleasure to chat about it. I don't know if it's passion. but shit It comes across like that. It ignites me. Passion's best left in the bedroom, I think. but An overused term. But but um but yeah, know it is it is an interesting subject. There's a lot to learn. um and And you know, why shouldn't it engage one? Thank you. Awesome. Thank you very much for coming on. I look forward to catching up again soon.