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S2E4 - Matt Barnes - Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale
100 Plays3 months ago
Matt Barnes is a former NBA player and current basketball analyst. He played college basketball at UCLA, where he was an All-Pacific-10 Honorable Mention selection in 2001, before being drafted by the Memphis Grizzlies in the second round of the 2002 NBA draft. In his final season of a 14-season career, he won an NBA championship with the Golden State Warriors in 2017. Matt is currently a basketball analyst for ESPN and NBC Sports California for Sacramento Kings games.
Matt joins Now It's Legal to discuss his basketball journey, as well as his new book, "All the Smoke: All the Stars, All the Stories, No Apologies" with co-author and former NBA player Stephen Jackson, released on October 8, 2024.
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About Now It's Legal
In July 2021, NIL forever changed the trajectory of college athletics. It’s been a long time coming as the NCAA has long needed changes like NIL, the transfer portal, revenue sharing and other benefits for college athletes.
We introduce to you the Now It’s Legal podcast. Join us as we discuss the industry that holds the hearts of millions of fans who want to understand where its trajectory is heading. We are talking to those who are invested in and affected by NIL including: Former and current college athletes, presidents and head coaches, broadcasters and media personalities, investors and more. This is just the beginning of NIL and what it means for the future of college athletics. Host Jim Cavale is a former college athlete and entrepreneur who has become an advocate for young athletes across the country. In 2017, he created the INFLCR app that allowed athletes to build their brand on social media, and in 2021, evolved into the NIL management technology for more than 100,000 athletes across 200 college athletic programs. INFLCR has since been acquired by sports tech titan, Teamworks.
In 2023, Jim founded Athletes.org which which is the players association for college athletes to negotiate the best terms for their college athletics experience. AO provides its member athletes with a free membership, empowering them with a voice, on demand support, and group licensing income in the same ways that professional league associations do for their member athletes.
Tune in to a new episode on Wednesdays this fall and join in on the conversation on Instagram with @nowitslegalpod and @jimcavale.
Resources:
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2023RES_DI-RevExpReport_FINAL.pdf
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Transcript
Introduction and Teaser
00:00:11
Speaker
Love that track, two chains, NCAA has become a staple here in season two of Now It's Legal. Welcome to another episode. I'm Jim Cavall, your host. And this one is going to be a lot of fun. We've talked to US Senator. We've talked to the lead litigator in the House settlement. We've talked to a lot of different folks, but today we're going to talk to a guy who's leading the way when it comes to media in sports.
Matt Barnes' Background
00:00:36
Speaker
ah He's also a 14-year NBA veteran, and he's a guy who played big-time college basketball at UCLA. It's Matt Barnes. If you watch the All the Smoke podcast or listen to it on Showtime, it is a great podcast, bringing you all the different people from around the industry you need to hear from. But today, you're going to hear from Matt, and you're going to hear from him not just as a former and NBA athlete or UCLA athlete. You're going to hear from him as a dad.
00:01:03
Speaker
He has kids coming up in the high school ranks, the middle school ranks, who are probably gonna play college
Reforming College Athletics
00:01:09
Speaker
sports. And he has a lot of thoughts around where college athletics should go, messages for fans to understand why the direction is needing to be what it is, messages for athletes about the importance of learning and standing up. And so this is ah this is a really, really fun conversation. And let's go right to it. My conversation with Matt Barnes.
00:01:32
Speaker
Matt, thanks so much for spending some time with us today. I know you have a lot of different things going on as not just ah a media mogul with the new era of media, podcast, activist, bringing light to so many situations that people need to learn about, but you're a dad. And a lot of what we're gonna talk about today with college athletics and really the business of college sports and where it's going, it's gonna impact you as a dad of young boys who are probably gonna play college athletics very soon. So um I want people to know like when we talk about this today, you're not just talking about it as a ah former standout at UCLA and 14 year NBA player, but also as dad. um Before we even get into the topics, what's it been like for you kind of going back through a lot of the stuff you went through as an athlete, as a dad of young athletes?
00:02:22
Speaker
You know, Jim, what really piqued my interest when you and I first met was obviously your plan, and and I hadn't seen anything kind of to the magnitude of where you guys were, but it's because I had 15-year-old twins who loved basketball and are starting to get better and better.
Family and Sports
00:02:38
Speaker
I also have a five year old and I got a month old. So I'm going to be in this dad mode for, excuse me, ah and three bonus kids. So I got six boys and one girl and everyone plays sports. So, you know, for the next 20 plus years, I'm going to be in this dad mode of kids transitioning from each level and and hopefully getting to college and beyond. So.
00:02:58
Speaker
that mode is amazing it's a lot you know as I mentioned I have a month old and I have six other kids I have 15 year old twins I have a 13 year old daughter a 12 year old son 11 year old son five year old son and a month old son so so ah we're rolling deep over here um but again I think this is a very important topic as you know the NCAA has always kind of been crooked when it comes to I guess sharing the wealth yeah for a lack of the better word, you know all the money that that you know standout athletes have made schools over the years and you know there's actual numbers now to to to kind of show that and the athlete has never got a cut so you know now again that I have kids that are going to be coming through that same pipeline that I missed out on I definitely want to be prepared one but two if there's anything I can do to help um is definitely where my focus is at when it comes to that
00:03:47
Speaker
I love it. I love it. And as a dad as well and a dad with a blended family, ah you know, my my son's Ted and goes up to my my oldest is 22. You know, it's it's interesting to take my business hat off and just think about it is a dad. So it's cool to hear you say the same thing. And offline, before we got started, I asked you if there's anything notable about your your story that you wanted me to include in your bio. And you said, man, number one, first and foremost, I'm a dad.
00:04:14
Speaker
and And so I love how you started with that. So you talked about the numbers. um In the 21st century, college sports has absolutely exploded. um It's been commercialized. And we're talking about $17.5 billion dollars annually in revenue. and Sometimes you'll say that to folks that are administrators, commissioners, ADs, and they're like, what do you mean? Where'd you get that number from? Well, when you add up all the media deals with the Big 10, SEC, ACC, Big 12, the CFP, March Madness, the gates and ticket sales at each school, multimedia rights, that's what it is. That's the number. And um you know the reality is, is that only about 3 billion of that 17 and a half billion dollars is going to the athletes. And it's going to them via tuition and benefits.
00:05:02
Speaker
which is great. It's great that college athletes get free tuition and can build a foundation for the rest of their lives.
Revenue Disparity and Solutions
00:05:08
Speaker
But almost $7 billion, and that $17.5 billion is going to coaches and athletic directors, ah not just for salaries, but buyouts. We've seen coaches get massive buyouts. We saw Florida's alums come together a few weeks ago when they lost another game and say, we've pulled together $26 million dollars to buy out the coach and fire him so we can get a new coach.
00:05:28
Speaker
Right. So, um you know, there's a real reality and in this. And then the last thing before I ask you this first question is, um wow, in the NBA, which has comparable revenues, 8.75 billion of that 17 and a half billion would go to the players.
00:05:45
Speaker
right, because of the rev share through the collective bargaining agreement, and much less than that would go to front office staff and coaches. And so it's just upside down. And that's why we're in this place. So just what are your thoughts on some of those stats in the current business model of college sports?
00:06:04
Speaker
um it's It's flawed. um I think it's been flawed for a long time. ah Chris Weber is a good friend of mine and we're working on his Fab Five project together and you know hearing him tell stories of being the number one college athlete in his time at Michigan.
00:06:22
Speaker
seeing his jersey being sold around campus at the student store and the bookstore and all kinds of things. and Him not having enough money in his pocket to get a sandwich. um It's crazy. You know, obviously that's early 90s and here we are fast forward in 2024. So I think we we've come a long way, um obviously with the injunction of the NIL.
00:06:40
Speaker
but still, you know, obviously with this new court case pending, you know, the NCAA hasn't necessarily given back to the athlete at all. So, you know, when you see the the kind of the rev splits and the rev shares, and again, what I love what your company is doing is you're trying to give these athletes a voice and a seat at the table. You know, we've always been, whether it's, the you know,
00:07:00
Speaker
high school sports, college sports, professional sports. We've always been the engine that moves the car, and it's taken a lot of fighting on the professional level for athletes to get an equal ah share, in an equal voice. um But now it's starting in college, you know what I mean? and It's kind of disappointing from a standpoint to be honest with you is that, you know, I don't like to make anything a business too early because once you get to the main business, which is the pros, if if you're fortunate enough to make it it, it really is a business. But now you're seeing the business start in eighth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade coming into high school is when the business starts. And I think it's hard for young men and even kids
00:07:39
Speaker
to kind of understand the magnitude ah of what they're doing and and all the vultures around them that are trying to capitalize off them. um How do you stay hungry? How do you stay driven? How do you stay focused? you know I was in an era where you know guys were getting paid at school ah to go to college, um but it wasn't anything crazy like it is now. And I remember when I used to get You know, I had a little condo and ah in a new Tahoe when it came out and I get my little $2,500 trail grant. and You couldn't tell me shit in Westwood. You know, I thought I was sitting on top of the world, you know what I mean? But again, fast forward now, ah you know, where we're at, um I definitely feel there needs to be some kind of payout for the NCAA. And obviously, I'm sure we'll get into that later in the show, you know, with the upcoming court case.
00:08:24
Speaker
With that money that is starting to come to these athletes, um first and foremost, I want fans to remember that 99% of student athletes don't go pro. They may go pro in something else, but they don't go pro in that particular sport. So, you know, for people who get mad at athletes or or saying that, you know, it's a business and it's ruining college sports, I understand where they're coming from. But you have to understand where these athletes are coming from is this is their one shot for most of them. A majority of them are going to go to the next level, unfortunately. so you know, how can they secure themselves or set themselves up for that next phase of life. So I think we've come a long way. I still think we have a long way to go. And and and I'm really interested in and seeing how I can help, you know, be a platform, a voice and, ah you know, someone who's going to be fighting for these kids.
00:09:12
Speaker
Absolutely, man. And there's so many things I want to pull out of that. I want to go back to how you felt in Westwood when you had that check and had the Tahoe. um But I'm going to I'm going to wait. I want to go first to more of the numbers. Seventeen and a half billion, more than 12 billion of that can be connected to big time college football and basketball.
00:09:32
Speaker
And about 60% of those athletes that play those sports at the big time levels are
African-American Athletes' Impact
00:09:38
Speaker
African-American. I think that's important to note. ah but But ultimately, um you know, it's it's a system that has a lot of other sports which are amazing.
00:09:48
Speaker
but it's really built off of the revenues that come from those two sports. So how how important is it that this system is regulated for these athletes to have equitable compensation for the revenue that ultimately they're responsible for producing?
00:10:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it it it's a tough situation, I think, for all student athletes in college, but I mean, I think it's no surprise that football and basketball carry the weight of, you know, drawing big revenue. um So, you know, as a basketball player, you know, I'm thinking, and and my kids being basketball players,
00:10:25
Speaker
I want them to be compensated for the heavy lift that, you know, them and their teammates and and guys across the country are doing. But at the same time, I mean, I think all the sports are what makes college so special. You know what I mean? The one thing that I think that hasn't wavered, you know, you've seen Fans come and go for the NBA. Fans come and go for the NFL. Fans come and go for Major League Baseball. But the one thing that's always stayed consistent is the excitement around college sports. ah You know, March Madness, the Bowl games, College World Series, ah you know, track and field, um gymnastics. I mean, those are always something no matter what level, how old you are, you try to tune into if you have time. So the importance of college athletics is as is definitely at an all-time high. so
00:11:11
Speaker
And it's just a tough situation. I mean, do you give the boatload of the guys who are bringing in this revenue a split, or do you try to help the entire system? So obviously, that's a little bit above my pay grade. um But i you know you always again, you always want everyone to have an opportunity at the pie. And I think that's why there needs to be some kind of governing body or you know association to help these people not only get their cut, but have a voice in how it is distributed as well.
00:11:39
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So the the House versus NCAA settlement is really a consolidation of multiple court cases against the NCAA and the schools. And I do want to note, ah the NCAA, really the only revenue that's significant for the NCAA is March Madness. They own March Madness. But when you look at the CFP, you look at the conference media deals, you look at the the money made at each school with tickets and multimedia rights, ah the reality is is outside of the NCAA is where the meat of the revenue comes from. So the schools and the conferences are just yeah are just as much ah responsible for what we're talking about as the NCAA. But the House versus NCAA settlement is a consolidation of a bunch of court cases that ultimately have to do with athletes not having revenue shared with them from the media money and other revenues that the schools produce.
00:12:31
Speaker
And if it gets done, it's it's in a preliminary approval period right now, and it has not been approved by Judge Wilkin yet, um but should it get approved, ah starting next year, a 10-year deal begins where athletes will get paid, and it's a $22 million dollars cap annually for each school to fund. And they have to come up with the money. The money's not coming from the NCAA or some... said know They have to come up with the money to be able to afford this.
00:12:58
Speaker
um And so, you know, a lot of schools have come out and said for us to do this, first of all, we're going to focus most of the money on football and basketball because that's where we generate most of the money. And we have to have the best talent in those sports to be able to continue to generate more and more revenue to afford this. They've also come out and said that this may pose a threat to Olympic sports um that, you know, right now they don't know if they're going to be able to keep funding all the other sports and at least the scholarships for those other sports.
00:13:28
Speaker
For fans when they hear that they start to say see the greed of the football and basketball players is gonna ruin and Cancel other sports, but that's not actually the truth The truth is the schools aren't willing to rebalance their budgets and maybe have lower salaries for some folks like 80s and coaches Maybe not have such favorable buyout terms for coaches who failed and gotten fired to be able to afford Not just revenue sharing but all the other sports so I mean you know, this demonization of football and basketball, should these athletes forego compensation just so the school can afford all these other sports or should somebody else maybe make a sacrifice? Well, I mean, I just think the school, you know, as as we've grown into adults and, you know, I remember hearing my parents, you know, every month at the kitchen table, you know, this is how much money we made. This has to go out and this is what needs, you know, this is the necessities need to be taken care of, you know, as an adult and a father now, it's
00:14:23
Speaker
balancing checkbooks and an account. So, you know, at the end of the day, um I think the pressure falls on these colleges. And thank you for correcting me about all the actually outside money the conferences and colleges make. But I think there has to be some sacrifice. I think, you know, these some of these coaches are getting paid crazy money. And I don't ever want to hate on nobody making money. But, you know, the turnover rate and coaching now is ridiculous. I mean, college and pros used to see 10 years at least guys who stick around for six, seven, 10 years and longer. And Now it's every two two years, you know, these guys are are getting flipped and that's in college and professional sports. And you're seeing these huge, huge buyouts and it's just like, you failed. You know, why are you getting so much money to fail? And then on top of that, you know, I went to UCLA and I love UCLA and I love the experience, but I've been in LA since 1998. And when I tell you every time I walk on campus, there's a new building being built. There's always something going on, which means there's obviously money
00:15:20
Speaker
Being donated and and generated so I think at the end of the day ah without actually knowing all the moving parts um I definitely think it should fall on these schools and conferences to be able to you know rebalance their budget sheets and and and make sure not only that the people that are bringing in a ah Majority of this revenue are taken care of but but everyone else's as well absolutely absolutely and and so another misconceptions sometimes that fans have is around an i so n ni is outside of seven that's half billion have to cut you off so if this if this house versus ncw goes through there will still so that the colleges actual individual college will still have to pay and then on on top the kids can still get in i l too Yes. But in the settlement, there's a crux that the judge has asked for more clarification around, and that's why the settlement has not been approved as of yet. And the crux is that there is a a provision to limit additional n NIL opportunities mainly from the collectives, not the endorsement deals. You can still go do endorsement deals, but there's a desire to start to regulate and maybe even cap
00:16:29
Speaker
the collective activity where donors are funding payments to athletes. And and so it remains to be seen where that language will end up and whether or not collectives continue to be a part of the package that an athlete accepts when he or she decides to go to an institution. But the house settlement will allow the schools instead of a collective to directly share revenue with the athlete, not as employees.
00:16:53
Speaker
But ultimately, it'll be an NIL deal between the school and the athlete. And so, and I... Go ahead. I just want to give you a hypothetical because I don't mean to cut you off. So say I'm a five-star recruit, UCLA in this court case is one. I'm a freshman. I had a great freshman year. I decided to come back for my sophomore year.
00:17:13
Speaker
What kind of money am I looking at as coming into my sophomore year? I know I'm going to be a lottery pick this upcoming draft. What kind of money am I looking for from the school if if if all goes well with the court decision?
00:17:27
Speaker
yeah but like So that's part of what we'll be working on at athletes dot.org is the parameters of what the contract between the school and the athletes in general looks like. Just like the MBPA had a standard contract that your agent used to negotiate within the cap, the minimum max,
00:17:45
Speaker
all the things that were set by the collective bargaining agreement with the MBPA. And so a lot of that is not known yet. And that's why some athletes are a little bit scared because they don't know what they're going to make from the school, but they're being told they may have to give up some of the NIL opportunities they're currently getting.
Complexities of Athlete Compensation
00:18:01
Speaker
and And so for fans, it's important to understand that NIL money that you're seeing athletes get paid is not from the $17.5 billion dollars of revenue. It's separately raised funds from donors that through a collective, which is a shell company essentially that's associated with the school but isn't the school itself, the collective is raising this money from the donors and then offering it to the athletes to go to that school. And it's ultimately being used as pay for play compensation just disguised as NIL. And so we're seeing a lot of athletes get promises from coaches that they'll get this much for NIL and then go to a school and not get what they were told
00:18:41
Speaker
when they when it's all said and done. We saw Matthew Sluka from UNLV last week say, I'm leaving. I was told I was getting $100,000 by the coordinator. I've only gotten 3,000. I've asked about it a few times. It's been told to me that I'm not going to get what I thought I was going to get.
00:18:57
Speaker
And I'm going to stop now. So I have one year of eligibility and test the market again next year. Right. So this aspect of athletes ultimately needing to be empowered and protected is super, super important because, as you know, when you're coming in as a young athlete, you said it earlier with the Pell Grant analogy, this is a lot of money to you and you're going to try to take whatever you can get. Right. But you also might not do it in a way where you're actually going to get what you were promised.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, no. And I think, you know, when and I try to put myself I've already been the athlete. So I try to put myself in the hands point of view. And man, look how selfish she is. You know, well what's the kid's name from UNLV? Sluka, Matthew Sluka. Look how selfish she is. He's you know, he's going to give up on his team after going three and oh, but on on the flip side, like you said, you have to as an athlete put yourself in the best position to get what you can get because there's a sand timer thingss goingnna run out nothing up nothing after college is guaranteed for anybody you top athlete if you happen to get earth there's no guarantee you' going to that next level but i i think what that said is something that's always kind of concerned me because i did get a little bit of money ah in the 90s in college and early 2000s and you know did some young dumb things with it you know obviously nothing that that that that got me in trouble but I couldn't imagine having a couple hundred thousand in my bank account one because it came from nothing so I personally wouldn't know how to handle or manage that but majority like you said 60 percent of yeah I think you said of ah of the big push for African Americans
00:20:35
Speaker
I would probably say 95%, 96, 97% of those athletes came from probably low income situations. You know what I mean? So it's just like the money's new to us as athletes. And the first thing you want to do is obviously take care of your family. So where are those lines drawn? So my whole thing is I think with this new burst of athletes getting paid what they're worth, whether it be from the NCAA or NIL, there needs to be something to help them manage that because I was a you know, an NBA guy and bounced around and I probably saved my first five summers and When I got into the NBA, I was 21. So my first four or five years at the end of every summer I was broke I was broke, you know, I was making the minimum at the time and didn't come from a background of financial wealth or literacy and I would spend and as probably a ton of formats used to it it goes out a lot faster than it comes in. So how are we able to make sure these kids one stay focused, stay disciplined and understand the bigger goal but to give them some kind of financial structure because a majority of us and a majority of them didn't come from anything.
00:21:45
Speaker
Well, you know, you're gonna meet Brandon Copeland when he's out in l LA with you in a couple weeks at your guys event with uninterrupted UCLA and USC student athletes. um But you know, cope played 10 years in the NFL was an undrafted free agent and just released an awesome book about ah you know, helping younger versions of himself think about the things you're talking about, how to manage money, how to make sure you're thinking about it the right way. And what he and I always talk about is um that is a big issue that needs to be addressed. An association like athletes dot.org can have the tools to help athletes, at least have an option to put money in a trust, to put money away. But that shouldn't be the reason that the athletes don't get paid.
00:22:27
Speaker
but Because because ultimately, just like a young tennis player is going to get or a golfer is going to get what they're worth at 16 years old. Sometimes ah these athletes deserve that too. And I know you I know you agree with that. But I think you're making a really good point, which is, listen, athletes need information and protection, right?
Financial Literacy and Education
00:22:45
Speaker
That's what they need. And on the information side, they've never really been equipped. College athletes while they're still in college have never really been equipped with the information around how the business of college athletics works at their school. ah you know they They don't necessarily know how much football brings in. They don't necessarily know how football has to do well for the other sports to have what they have. They don't necessarily know how much money is going to payroll for coaches and ADs versus how much is going to their tuition and benefits. right So it seems to be where everything starts, the information, the education, so that athletes can understand this. And I just ask you, like how vital is it
00:23:27
Speaker
um for college athletes to gain access to this information so that they can really have a seat at the table and negotiate for themselves. I think it's huge, but I think the bigger challenge if I'm being honest is is getting the athletes to pay attention to the information.
00:23:45
Speaker
how do we feed these athletes the information so it's cool so it's not being they're not being talked over their head it's bite-sized pieces I think you know again if I'm putting myself back it in 1998 just turned 18 in l LA I'm hitting the Hollywood Strip I'm going to these years I'm doing all this crazy fun amazing things I don't know if i want to sit down and learn something that i know for sure will benefit me but there's just you know there's just so much other stuff going on in these kids worlds today and i can only imagine again this is late ninety s where there was no technology you know we're in twenty twenty four and in in coming to the end of this year There's so much stuff going on in these kids little ecosystems, you know, our young men and young women's ecosystems. um And I'll take it back to the NBA. I remember the NBA always tried to arm us at the very beginning of every season, come in and bring people that financial people and and pitfalls and they and they would try to arm us with all this information.
00:24:45
Speaker
And when I say a majority of us didn't start listening, if we were lucky enough to play till into our late twenties, we didn't listen to our late twenties. You know what I mean? I got in the league at 21 and I was in these meetings and it was in one ear and out the other. And probably because of my age, or I'm thinking about something else I'm going to do, or I got a girl lined up or we got a big game coming or something. So there's just so many distractions. So not to be long-winded, but how do these organizations, particularly your organization and all these organizations that want to educate and help people. How do you get through to this next generation that has so many different outside distractions, although what you're telling them and feeding them is important to further further from here on out is very important, but just to get them to understand that in the moment, how important that is.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's ah it's a great point. um I think it's been used against the athletes in college for a long time. I think if you look at the history of college athletics, ah the leaders have made the rules and told themselves they know best. And they've then told the athletes the rules and expected them to take whatever they've offered them.
00:25:54
Speaker
ah They've never expected the athletes to speak up or speak back. Some of that's because this is not the end all be all for the big time big name athlete. They're trying to go to the pros. So that's been used against them as well. Don't mess things up. Don't speak up too loud. You might get blackballed. Right. And so we've seen that.
00:26:11
Speaker
um But also just because they don't expect athletes to take the time to gain the information, to be ah equipped to have that conversation and push back. And so that's just the the nature and the history of of college athletics. And ah while all that has been going on, all of the lawsuits that are pushing the change forward ah have come from former college athletes, like a peer of yours, Ed O'Bannon, who was at UCLA right before you were. You weren't on that national championship team. You came right after that, right? I came three years after that. Probably had an influence with why you went to UCLA, though. And and ah those great teams, the Tyus Edney and Charles O'Bannon. Well, listen, you know, those those guys won a national title. Ed O'Bannon gets out of not just college, but the NBA, and then
00:27:00
Speaker
decides to learn about how college sports works because he was in a video game, he wasn't being paid to be in, right? And so whether it's Ed O'Bannon, whether it's Hubbard, Alston, Carter, Johnson, House, these are all athletes who later in life were like, oh, here's how it works. And so that's the beauty is, I think you're right. I think how you communicate to young athletes is vital. How we at athletes.org is key. It's got to be cool. It's got to be bite sized. But Right now, what we're talking about connects to how much they can make while they're in college, because all of that is being decided. So I think there's at least enough of an interest where it's on the level of the movie premiere they got to go to or something else that's fun, because like this might be the only money I get a chance to make, and I got to make sure I have the best possible scenario. Agreed. Agreed.
00:27:52
Speaker
like So fans, I want to go back to fans, you have a ton of big time college sports fans that listen to or watch your show all the time so you know the fans very well. um The media has really started to demonize the athletes to the fans around NIL, right? ah It was on game day this past weekend with Kirk Herb Street, Nick Saban. They talked about this topic. I thought, actually, Coach Saban said a lot of great things around how the athletes do need a seat at the table.
Media Misrepresentation
00:28:20
Speaker
They should collectively bargain. And this thing should be structured. But there also was a lot of talk around Sluka, around you know how many more athletes are going to do this now. Leonard Fernet was the first to opt out of a bowl game. And now athletes opt out of bowl games all the time. How many athletes are going to follow Sluka and do what he did, right? And these three Twitter it's his fans,
00:28:40
Speaker
These athletes are greedy. What happened to the college sports? I knew but but the reality is is this isn't about the athletes this is about the lack of leadership in college athletics to create a structure where you can regulate a transfer portal a structure where you can pay athletes and have Transparency a structure where you can stop coaches from tampering and stealing players. They haven't put that together The athletes are simply playing within the boundaries ah that exists which there are many of so what do you say to the fans?
00:29:10
Speaker
who are really looking at the athletes layer the problem when when really they're not. yeah It's tough because if you aren't educated on the situation, again, I try to put myself in both shoes. I can see frustration coming from the fans because they don't know all the ins and outs and intricacies of what's going on.
00:29:27
Speaker
you know we live in a society today where we read headlines so if the head you know in the headlines most of the time don't even really explain what's going on in the article so if you don't take the time to really understand you know the ins and outs and and and and the athlete and what they need and in their journey I can understand how fans can be mad, but I think at the end of the day, like you just said, I mean, this should have been in place. You know, something like the NCAA should have been able to see this coming. You know what I mean? People have been complaining about players not getting paid. It didn't just start. It's it's been 20 plus years of guys like, hey, what's going on? Why is this not happening? But instead, they stayed stubborn. And like you said, wrote the rules and and the players were just supposed to follow them. so
00:30:09
Speaker
Again, I think a ton of responsibility comes on the at or excuse be adults in the situation, which would be the NCAA, these league, these these conferences, and then the schools. Because again, they knew how their bread was being buttered. They knew how much these sports programs are bringing in and all these big time events that these athletes are driving and driving revenue for these schools. And they always just wanted to you know all this and and and keep it here.
00:30:34
Speaker
and instead of saying like hey you know maybe we do need to figure out a structure that it you know compensates and you know so now we're here in 2024 and it's a fast forward with all these court cases I you know Reggie bushes we just had Reggie Bush on the show not too long ago he's right in in the thick of things fighting but um You know, we're here now and it's going to be the wild, wild West for a little bit, because like you said, there is a lack of structure and parameters. um You know, that's why, again, what I love about your company, Athlete for ah dot.org, that is, you know, trying to solidify a space in the foot is, is it is it's educational, it's beneficial, um and it's adding some structure to an otherwise unstructured situation. So,
00:31:17
Speaker
i Mean your company and then I'm sure other companies are on the horizon I still feel like it's gonna be a little bit of the wild wild west for a while because it's new We're finally to the point now where athletes are getting paid. They've been asking for this for 25 30 years. So it's new It's gonna be unregulated for a while who was gonna really put their foot down and make a print in this to kind of help calm the chaos So I want to shift from fans to athletes. think that you know we already talked about how important it is for athletes to ah gain information and understand how the business of college sports works at their school. um But there's also an importance for athletes to understand the power in them uniting and standing up.
00:31:57
Speaker
And listen, ah whether it's the NBA, which in the 60s, we saw two great players who had a lot to lose and little to gain, Oscar Robertson and Bob Pettit stand up at the All-Star Game in 1963 in each of their respective East and West All-Star team locker rooms and say, we're not going out to play. We're not playing in this game. And the reason was the owners had a new media deal and they still weren't providing the players with the pension they asked for and other benefits they asked for.
00:32:26
Speaker
And so the players, it lasted about 10 minutes. They said they weren't going to play and the others gave in right now. It still took years to get the structures of the pension and benefits the players wanted to actually happen. But that was the beginning of it. We've seen this throughout players with much to lose little to gain using their big name and ultimately their likeness to stand up. ah We saw it. We saw it it with college football during the George Floyd ah era when we saw schools ah not practice because the players told coach, we're not
Athlete Unity and Power
00:32:58
Speaker
practicing today. I want you to come out and march with us. And I've talked to coaches who are in locker rooms at universities where they happen. I said, how did it play out? And they were like, the players basically said, we're not practicing today. And you know what? but We didn't practice. You know, it's so like, like the reality is, is there's a lot of power in the hands of the players. But
00:33:19
Speaker
A lot of them have been scared to use it because they've seen situations like Colin Kaepernick. They've seen situations where they they don't want to rock the boat. But right now seems like the best time in history for college athletes to gain information, unite, and stand up. Would you agree?
00:33:37
Speaker
yeah absolutely and and i think speaking as a former athlete unknown alwaysll be scares the shit out of you you know am i going to lose my scholarship am i going to be cut you know there's just so many things that you don't know but to Your point if you are together ah can't you know your you athletes have always had the power, have always had the skill, and and and and ah have been over the last 10, 15 years, you know, actually, excuse me, way longer back using their voice, but understanding, uniting those strong voices and those bigger platforms now, because kids now these days are coming into college with bigger followings than the actual college. You know, these are businesses coming into these universities, these individual kids are business is coming into these universities so understanding you know what their voice means how to be able to unify and and and and get stuff for the the greater good of everyone but you know my whole thing and and where I've kind of seen not to play devil's advocate but
00:34:36
Speaker
college is such a short window for certain athletes the top athletes let's say you know top basketball players you're probably one and done two and done at the longest you know i think in it football you have to stay three correct yes you know so how do you get these guys that that are trying to make this just a pit stop to engage or is it the guys that are yeah on the four-year path or redshirt and four-year path like who is going to be the one that kind of as an athlete put their voice and their platform to the forefront be like hey this is what's going on and and will that person have enough power for everyone else to be like yo you see what's his name well what's his name dip or in you know i mean so i think that is another thing that because a lot of the top athletes use college as just a pit stop
00:35:21
Speaker
do they Is their mind there to be like, all right, well, shit, my NIL is good. Damn, if the college is going to give me some money too, I'm straight. I'm not i'm only going to be here for a year anyway, and I'm gone. you know how do we If that is the thinking, and I'm a so i' its assuming because I'm not there, but if that's the thinking, how do we change that thinking? Or is that not the group you're going after, possibly the group that you know is going to have the long haul in college and really going to have to you know play these four years out and see what happens if they are able to go to the pros?
NIL Influence on College Choices
00:35:49
Speaker
Well, I think when it starts to affect their earnings potential through current and NIL structures, as well as how they earn money from the schools, um it's going to become more and more of a thing they care about, no matter who they are as an athlete. Let's let's remember, you know, I'm friends with a lot of basketball agents, and I always was the guy kind of challenging about like,
00:36:09
Speaker
Man, have you seen how many guys have left one and done and not made it in the NBA? You know, I'm i'm a Syracuse guy. ah we've had i gotta I could name a whole 12 man roster of guys who left too early, but it was the right financial decision for them at the time. Well, the NBA has changed, right? I mean, Dalton Connect was a lottery pick for the Lakers this year.
00:36:27
Speaker
Guy started in junior college, then transferred to northern Colorado, then ended up going to Tennessee and becoming one of the best players in the country. And now he's on the Lakers, right? So the transfer portal, um but also the second round of the NBA draft, right? like It's just like you see mostly two-way contracts. They're not very lucrative. And you can probably make more while still developing yourself by staying in college. So I do think there's some opportunities with continuity in college athletics with getting a lot of these players, three year minimum for football. And I think basketball, the lifespan is increasing because guys have seen they can make more if they stay a little bit longer. Yep. No, i could I completely agree. I completely agree. And definitely on the women's side, you know, the women are staying long. Absolutely.
00:37:11
Speaker
You see the Angel Reese's and the Cleveland Clarks that are coming into their professional sport taking a pay cut, which is crazy. I mean, they're leaving college and taking a pay cut to play in the W. So, no, I agree with you. Like I said, I just think it's going to obviously take a solid organization such as yours behind it, but it's going to take some of these athletes to really take that stand. And then again, the the the the information you're giving them has to be creative and and educational and and again bite sized because again we're we're talking about 18, 19, 20, 21 year old kids that have the whole world ahead of them ah and a heavy agenda as far as just life in itself.
00:37:52
Speaker
Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Well, you know, I appreciate you making time for this conversation. I think your perspective is so unique as a former player, both at the college and pro level, and then as a dad, and as a guy who who really is trying to help a lot of people gain equity in society in general. And this is an area where Let's be honest, if this thing was structured the right way, this would change the lives of not just the athletes, but generations after them and their families, if this is done the right way. This is a lot of money. This is a big market that could be life changing. Of course, they still have to make the right decisions with the money, and there has to be protections in place, all the things you said, but that's why this topic is is what I'm so passionate about, and it's why athletes dot.org exists.
Supporting Athletes' Empowerment
00:38:39
Speaker
Man, I appreciate you having me. And again, you know, up from the night we met after that ah softball game and and and your your your knowledge and the space and your passion for the space is obviously what but drew me to you. and And, you know, I'm definitely happy to be able to, you know, jump on board as busy I am, but but to really help where I can um because I do understand I have a platform and I do have kids coming down this pipeline and I want to make sure that they're prepared and and get what they need and and and understand the process.
00:39:07
Speaker
Absolutely, Matt. Well, thanks again, man. What about? Great stuff from Matt and so much to highlight, but I think the biggest thing is this. We have to unite. Athletes must unite. And that may take standing up in a time where you feel like it might be scary to do so, but there's never been.
00:39:28
Speaker
a more popular time to stand up, learn, and ultimately be in a position to have a seat at the table than right now for college athletes. And with so much changing, it's important athletes are sitting at the table to have a say in how those changes go down. And so I want to thank Matt again for not only being a part of the podcast, but other things he's doing with athletes dot.org. I mentioned the uninterrupted event that he's going to with Brandon Copeland.
00:39:54
Speaker
And Colt and Matt are going to talk to USC and UCLA athletes. They want a lot of the same stuff you just heard about today. And so really want to thank Matt for his investment in athletes.org. And I want to thank you for watching or listening to this episode. ah We have a lot of exciting guests coming up this season. ah We've already had some great episodes so far. We have many great episodes to come. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts. But also, I would definitely follow the Now It's Legal Pod account on Instagram.
00:40:24
Speaker
If you follow that account, you'll get snippets, ah little videos of new guests coming onto the show so you know that a new episode is coming and who it's with. So make sure you're following us on Instagram at Now It's Legal Pod and make sure you're subscribed to the podcast on Apple and Spotify and YouTube. And for everybody here at athletes dot.org and Now It's Legal, I'm Jim Cavall. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode.