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S2E7 - Malcolm Jenkins - Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale
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Malcolm Jenkins is a former NFL player and Super Bowl champion. After earning All-American honors during his college football career at Ohio State University, and winning the Jim Thorpe Award, he was a first round draft pick for the New Orleans Saints in 2009. From 2014 - 2019, Malcolm played for the Philadelphia Eagles, winning a Super Bowl ring in 2018. He returned to New Orleans in 2020 before announcing his retirement in 2022.
Malcolm joins Now It's Legal to discuss The Malcolm Jenkins Foundation, a nonprofit charity with the goal to create positive change in youths' lives by providing resources and opportunities that will help them succeed, as well as the Players Coalition, which he co-founded with retired NFL wide receiver Anquan Boldin, to organize NFL players’ fight for social and racial equality.
Buy Malcolm's Book: https://a.co/d/eNqWEK2
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About Now It's Legal
In July 2021, NIL forever changed the trajectory of college athletics. It’s been a long time coming as the NCAA has long needed changes like NIL, the transfer portal, revenue sharing and other benefits for college athletes.
We introduce to you the Now It’s Legal podcast. Join us as we discuss the industry that holds the hearts of millions of fans who want to understand where its trajectory is heading. We are talking to those who are invested in and affected by NIL including: Former and current college athletes, presidents and head coaches, broadcasters and media personalities, investors and more. This is just the beginning of NIL and what it means for the future of college athletics.
Host Jim Cavale is a former college athlete and entrepreneur who has become an advocate for young athletes across the country. In 2017, he created the INFLCR app that allowed athletes to build their brand on social media, and in 2021, evolved into the NIL management technology for more than 100,000 athletes across 200 college athletic programs. INFLCR has since been acquired by sports tech titan, Teamworks.
In 2023, Jim founded Athletes.org which which is the players association for college athletes to negotiate the best terms for their college athletics experience. AO provides its member athletes with a free membership, empowering them with a voice, on demand support, and group licensing income in the same ways that professional league associations do for their member athletes.
Tune in to a new episode on Wednesdays this fall and join in on the conversation on Instagram with @nowitslegalpod and @jimcavale.
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Transcript
Introduction & Episode Overview
00:00:11
Speaker
What a track, two chains, NCAA, look it up, Spotify, Apple Music. So much truth in that track, so much truth spit by the guests who come on the show. Welcome to another episode of Now It's Legal. I'm your host, Jim Cavall. This is where we talk about college athletics, past, present, and future.
00:00:32
Speaker
And we've had a US Senator on an episode this season. We've had Jeffrey Kessler, who is the lead attorney in the house settlement, which could transform college athletics to new heights. But this episode, we're gonna move to the athlete. We have Malcolm Jenkins. This is his new book coming out. And Malcolm wrote this book, What Winners Won't Tell You, because he cares about helping a younger version of himself.
00:00:58
Speaker
He cares about college athletes gaining equity in this huge market that they help create so much revenue for on an annual basis.
Malcolm Jenkins' NFL Career & Advocacy
00:01:07
Speaker
You're gonna hear a lot of that passion throughout this interview. This is a guy who's a three-time Pro Bowler. He's a two-time Super Bowl champion.
00:01:15
Speaker
For many years during his career, he was the top safety in the NFL, but he was also an NFL Players Association player rap who was a part of the collective bargaining agreement and understands how hard it is to get athletes on the same page, get them educated.
00:01:31
Speaker
and give them the ability to have a seat at the table to negotiate for themselves. He did that at the pro level, and he has a lot of thoughts on how it would work at the college level and what it really means for college athletes to have equity in this beautiful industry that is college sports. So let's go to it. Episode four, season two, now it's legal with Malcolm Jacobs.
00:01:53
Speaker
All right, Malcolm, first off, I really appreciate you joining us on Now It's Legal, where we talk about everything with college athletics past, present, and future. You had a legendary college career, but also NFL career, but now post football, you're doing a lot to give back and help athletes. And so where I want to start is just talk a little bit about your work with the Players Coalition, which you founded, and then also your executive board seat with the NFLPA.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'll start with the with the latter. As a young player in in the NFL, I think I came in in 2009, we had a lockout the next year.
Players Coalition Growth & Impact
00:02:30
Speaker
ah So right right away, I was forced to kind of understand the business of football, right? Drew Brees was my quarterback. He was a president, one of BP's, the plie. And so we got to see very quickly kind of like the collective bargaining agreement, what that looks like negotiating and trying to organize and how hard it is, how difficult it is to get people on the same page or how necessary it was in order to gain, you know.
00:03:00
Speaker
access to better quality health care, standardized practices, you know, all of the things that players need and complain about, we had to fight for. You realize really quickly kind of where those lines are drawn business-wise. And then later in my career, once I realized or looked around the country and saw inequities and The communities that I lived in and wanted to do something about it, I began to protest and I saw very, very quickly what Colin Kaepernick and other guys in the league, even with guys in my locker room, how they were intimidated off of their stance or punished for what they were doing. And we realized that even trying to do some of that work, there was a necessity for protection and organizing.
00:03:46
Speaker
And so we took a similar approach to what I saw in the PA. We created a player only player-driven organization that is both a nonprofit but also a political vehicle so we can push for bills and in and lobby, but we can also raise funds and raise awareness for grassroots organizations and really created a vehicle for any athlete who wants to be socially involved to not have to deal with the pressures of finding all the information, being an expert, trying to navigate all of that while still being a full-time athlete.
00:04:25
Speaker
we have the resources to where you can kind of just be the vision for it, show up how you want to use your voice and platform, how you see fit, and join a collective of athletes that are also speaking out on these things so that you're not in a situation where, you know, you're dealing with a team or pressure from fans or an organization by yourself. And and and we've grown that since we started in 2017. We started with about 12 NFL players and now We're at about 12 professional of sports leagues across the country and dealing with a lot of collegiate athletes as well on various campuses. I love it. I love it. um You know, it plays into a lot of what's going on in college athletics right now because
00:05:11
Speaker
ah There definitely is an intimidation factor for athletes to stand up and speak um because their future is on the line, right? And that's used against them in a lot of situations, let alone just the information gap and the lack of access athletes have to how the business of college sports works. So let's have a conversation about how that business works.
College Athletics Revenue & Allocation
00:05:30
Speaker
And a lot of our athlete listeners, our parents, and college athletics administrators who watch and listen to this show can can hear our conversation.
00:05:39
Speaker
about this really important topic. Um, so we're here in the 21st century where college sports has boomed commercially, right? 17 and a half billion dollar annual revenue, uh, industry right now is what college athletics is when you add up all the media deals of the conferences, the CFP, March madness, the revenues that schools make with tickets, et cetera, 17 and a half billion. And in the NFL, well,
00:06:06
Speaker
you know, about eight to nine billion of that would would be going to who? To the players. But currently, about three billion of the 17.5 billion goes to all the athletes, regardless of sport, via tuition and benefits. And about seven billion of that 17 billion is going to coaches and administrators. So the allocation ah has been under a lot of heat with lawsuits and stuff that we're going to talk about, but just hearing how big it's gotten from a commercial standpoint and how it's being allocated, like what are your thoughts on the current state of the business of college athletics?
00:06:44
Speaker
Well, i think I think it's no surprise when you break it down that way where we are right now in the state of business, right? It was a model that wasn't sustainable, or at least would it be able to carry on to the future? There's going to be that that point in time where we look and see how lopsided that allocation is and for how long it's been that way.
00:07:04
Speaker
And I think what you're starting to do what you're starting to see now is you know it's opening our eyes to exactly what college athletes are going going through, how much money they're generating, how little they get, and what happens to them after they're done playing. We're paying more and more attention to that. And and I think that's a good thing. It's necessary. because and And then secondly, we're going retroactively. go like We're looking at today's athletes. Well, what what about yesterday's athlete, and what do they owe, and and what do they do?
00:07:33
Speaker
oh because this system has really just been more exploits exploits players than athletes than it does lift them up or empower them. And so I think the only thing now, and the reason it's so in such disarray is because the unraveling of that is gonna be a messy situation, but I think standardizing it, get into a place where athletes have a voice and there's a partnership as opposed to this kind of you know, where it's ownership where the NCAA has pretty much the the full power and and say so, becomes a partnership between players and their leagues and their schools. Suddenly, I think that it settles those waters. I think it it gets to a place that looks a little bit more familiar to other professional sports leagues we've seen, however the system pans out. But right now, I think we are in the wake of kind of
00:08:30
Speaker
peeling ourselves out of an old system that that we don't want anymore. Exactly. And I think when you look at that $17.5 billion dollar annual revenue number for college sports, you can peel off the onion a little bit and see that 12 billion of it comes from football.
00:08:47
Speaker
Right? Big time college football makes up the lion's share of the gross revenue. um And, you know, I got to ask you, I mean, how important is it that there is a system that is regulated for especially those athletes who more than half happen to be African-American? I mean, they're producing the lion's share of the gross revenue and there's not really equitable compensation for them, which obviously could be life changing from generational
NIL Transformation & Athlete Empowerment
00:09:15
Speaker
wealth. But I mean, just setting them up to be the leaders that they're empowered to be when they're done playing. Yeah, I think that we took these athletes out of football and we start to really think about the social and economical impacts that this can have, especially for African American players, their families, and thus their communities. I think this is a very important aspect of time and point in history because, you know, that that
00:09:44
Speaker
ability to make a living off of your body and so fight for athletes, especially football where the injury rate is 100 percent. Every single person who plays football will get injured and you risk your body you put in the time and this is every collegiate athlete whether you make it to the pros or not.
00:10:02
Speaker
But all of them are kind of holding on to that dream of maybe going professional, you know, the large percentage, meaning less than 2% of all collegiate athletes would play in professional sports. And then what happens, you know, when the fandom stops and nobody's paying attention, I think that's really what we have to to consider.
00:10:20
Speaker
This gives them an opportunity to not only change the trajectories of these universities while they make their money and build other programs and continue to feed into their systems, but also give them an opportunity to empower themselves, their families, while they serve at the university.
00:10:39
Speaker
So we've seen athletes take a stand after they're done playing when there's not as much risk and push change at O'Bannon, NIL, right? Alston, Carter, Hubbard, Johnson House, all more recent cases about antitrust implications and exposures that the NCAA has that has gotten us to a play where place where people are talking about actually sharing revenue from the schools to the athletes.
00:11:03
Speaker
um But the NIL aspect has really changed college athletics and in a lot of ways. Now, NIL to delineate is outside of that $17.5 billion dollars of gross revenue, right? Whether it comes from a brand that wants to do an endorsement with an athlete.
00:11:19
Speaker
Or what we've seen most of NIL become at the college level is a vehicle dressed up as play pay for play funded by donors through collectives, which are entities separate from the school that the school uses to, coaches use to lure and entice players to come play there. Like that's what NIL is, whether you want to admit it or not, like it is what I just said it is. And so there's a ah lack of structure that comes with that and it allows coaches to recruit with an IL in a way where they're making promises that we're starting to see are not being kept. um We don't have standard contracts. We don't have guaranteed money. We don't have minimum maximum salaries. We don't have free agency. We don't have some of the things that we know a collective bargaining agreement could bring
00:12:07
Speaker
um So like, what's the best route in your mind, having done it at the pro level, for college athletes to be protected and empowered in these situations? Because it's great that some athletes are getting paid with NIL, but what's not great is the lack of structure and how some athletes are still being exploited.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think two things need to happen. There are there really are two systems, and I don't i kind of see them simultaneously happening. I don't think we should ever limit, and I said this because being in the NFLPA, there was always an issue that we had, a core issue, is that your main earners or your quarterbacks or people who are selling a tickets or receivers, realistically, the system is working for them. They're getting top dollar with nearly TV deals and the salary cap goes up. They are making the large line share of that money.
00:12:56
Speaker
The other majority of the league was getting squeezed. As money contracts went up, the middle class got squeezed. And so we had a very like low salary majority, where I think almost the average, at one point in time when I was in a league a while ago, ah the average salary was about a million. right And that was like the majority of the league is made up of minimum salary players, minimum contracts.
00:13:26
Speaker
And I see the same thing happening. And it was really hard for us to fight for the middleman without pissing off the quarterback. So those top earners, you start to limit what they can do. Then you break up the ability to really be cohesive and stay unified. And I see the same thing happening. You have the majority of sports, right? That is outside of football.
00:13:48
Speaker
But it is college athletics and then the same still putting up the same time still getting injuries and still valuable right in need to be compensated, but then you have the football is the basketball that is making up the majority of that.
00:14:04
Speaker
And two of the ways that we got through that was, one, creating obviously some type of standardized system so that there is a cap that can be spread around multiple, that everybody has the same standard of play regardless of where you go to school. That stops everybody from being in a wild, wild west where the places that have the most money you know get all the best recruits and therefore dominate.
00:14:28
Speaker
But at the same time, there are things like pay for or player performance that we had, benefits where the pool of money that gets into the locker room says for one team is now broken up, not necessarily by like stats or predetermined contracts, but it's based off of how long and how much you play in the game. How much are they actually using? Yeah, your physical performance, right? So snaps.
00:14:56
Speaker
And if you're a person, so if you're a rookie who has a low contract, but you end up being a starter that whole year, your earning potential goes way up as opposed to, and if you're a vet, and you may not get, you know, and it, and I thought that was fairer than the veteran who had the $10 million dollars contract who, you know, gets bench and is just sitting on on the bench collecting his money, regardless. So I think that some elements of those systems,
00:15:24
Speaker
unnecessary, but I definitely think that NIL has to stay. You have to give guys the ability, I think, to make as much money as possible off their names. You know, I think that it's getting crazy because you have these collectives, but I think the spirit of it is really about, you know, if I, if the university can sell my jersey, I should be able to sign it and make money off of it. I should be able to make t-shirts and sell it and merchandise my own brand and name. I should be able to go get endorsements, things that, you know, you couldn't do under the old regime still makes sense. But I definitely think there needs to be some way to get around all of the collectives that are making this a little bit
00:16:04
Speaker
crazy and unsafe for a lot of today's athletes.
Financial Settlements & Athlete Compensation
00:16:09
Speaker
All right, so I mentioned some court cases earlier, athletes that have brought suits against the NCAA and the schools. There's a consolidation of three cases right now um within what's known as the House settlement. And it's pretty close to becoming a reality. It has not been approved yet by Judge Claudia Wilkin, but should it be approved starting next year, a 10 year deal will begin that will allow schools to share up to $22 million dollars a year. That would be the cap to go back to what you just said with any of their athletes.
00:16:40
Speaker
And the cap goes up every year. It's based on the gross revenue of the big time schools and the average is applied. And so it could be as high as 33 million by year 10. So it's a 22 to $33 million dollars ah annual cap that schools can share with athletes. and we're We're hearing a lot of schools publicly ah say, you know if we do this, we're probably going to share most of the revenue with the athletes that play football and basketball and women's basketball and the revenue producing sports. And we may not have the money to keep funding ah some other sports to ge even exist. right we may We may lose some Olympic sports. We may not have scholarships anymore in this sport or that sport. And when when I hear that, I feel like
00:17:25
Speaker
Basically, they want football and football players to forego getting paid so that they can afford to fund these other sports when really rebalancing their budgets rebalancing what the salaries are for.
00:17:40
Speaker
athletics administrators for coaches i mean we just saw a rumor last week that florida had its boosters pulled together 26 million dollars to buy out a coach they want to fire so they can then hire a new coach and pay him 10 million a year right so if they have the money to do that but they don't have the money to pay the $22 million dollars cap. It once again seems like a little bit of of talking out of both sides of of their mouth. And so I just want to ask the question, like, like what do you think about football and basketball to this point? They foregone being paid so that the school can afford to fund all the other sports. Should that continue?
00:18:19
Speaker
Well, here's what I say. I think when you frame it that way, you automatically put it on the athletes to determine, right? Then you make you put it on the football and basketball players and say, no, we don't want to share ours with the rest. And I think that's the wrong way to look at it. I think.
00:18:34
Speaker
it goes to your point, right? What are we really talking about? We're really talking about if we pay football players, then that drops our profit margin. And instead of taking any kind of drop in margins, we'll just transfer that from these other sports. We'll get rid of them.
00:18:51
Speaker
But in reality, we can look at D2 sports and other divisions and other schools where they don't bring in a ton of money from football and basketball, yet they still have all of these sports. It's paid from tuitions and other things. So there's no lack of money. There's just a lack of them wanting to let that cut into any of their profits.
00:19:10
Speaker
And I think that that's the ethos of why we're here in the first place is because we've been in an ecosystem you know where it's been very, here they've been able to exploit and extract as much value as possible out of the collegiate athlete, especially the star players in football and basketball.
00:19:27
Speaker
And now there's a struggle for that power and imbalance or a rebalancing of that, that is going to require them to redistribute you know that that power and a little bit of that wealth. And what they're trying to do is come up with solutions that does not change their position and in in making the athletes the ones responsible for making up the difference.
00:19:51
Speaker
Absolutely. and And we saw last week, um some of our member athletes at athletes dot.org were a part of ah a letter from 100 women's basketball athletes, current women's basketball athletes that are demanding that their schools start to share more information in how they're thinking about the house settlement because athletes are starting to read in the paper, or I should say online, athletes are starting to read that this could happen. And they're starting to see that $22 million dollars number. And everybody wants to know, how's the money going to be split up per sport? How's the money going to be split up per athlete? What are the contract terms going to be between the school and the athlete? Because this won't be employment and salaries. this will just be an NIL deal between the school and the athlete, which is a whole other conversation. But the point is this, college athletes generally have never been equipped with the information to understand how the big business of college athletics works at their school or across the country. um They have always been expected to take whatever they're offered. And
00:20:56
Speaker
Um, you know, this is, this is something that is, is so important. You've experienced it at the pro level, having a player's association that can educate the athletes and then have player reps who can speak on their behalf in a negotiation.
Athlete Involvement & Leadership
00:21:12
Speaker
is something that's been done over and over at the pro level. It's not easy. There's 32-player reps, and a lot of the guys on your 53-man roster don't care about this when you go talk to them at the team level, but you do your best to get their perspective before you go sit in that room, and the information is at least available. um And so I just just want to ask you about that. like what what is you know How vital is this that that athletes make it their mission and parents to understand this more and gain the access to the information on how this is gonna work?
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think the the first thing I like to say, because I get questioned a lot from parents of athletes, other people who are just curious about sports, like, you know, do that. well Don't they offer you guys any kind of lessons on financial literacy organization? And, you know, is somebody teaching you this stuff? And it's like, and I have to remind them, because I learned this in the NFL.
00:22:08
Speaker
If they taught us how to be stronger, financially more stable, communicate, how to how to organize, and really set ourselves up to be in a stable situation, and that would put us in a better position when it came time to negotiate our collective bargaining agreement. And that would be in the the opposite of their interests, right? That would be contrary to their interests. It's the same and with the collegiate level.
00:22:33
Speaker
if you're in this you know battle over millions, billions of dollars, it's not going to be in the NCAA's interest of creating an educated college base and parents. right So it's like yeah that has to come from the want-to of the players, the individuals and voices who are you know wise enough and and understand enough.
00:22:56
Speaker
And then that's the importance of a collective, that collective, because in the NFL there's a lot of turnover. Players retire, get hurt, move teams, and you need to continue that momentum. What was built before us is handed to us and we'll continue to build and pass it to the next.
00:23:11
Speaker
And that constant, that's one of the biggest challenges and the biggest purposes of our union is to educate the players as soon as they come in. We talk all the time about how we get to players early, and we meet them at the collegiate level, and we meet them in high school so that they can be prepared for what's coming. And I think it's important that they are proactive in finding that information because they're You will not get it from a university, you will not get it from a team or coach. If you do, you're lucky. But even then, there's no real incentive for you to be empowered. Once athletes gain the information, um they receive what they need to to start to have a voice and have a seat at the table. um There still is this reality that athletes are going to have to be comfortable taking a stand.
00:24:06
Speaker
and I talked about it earlier, like that's something that you've seen. in creating the players coalition. Like you've seen athletes get intimidation brought their way on taking any stand whatsoever. Some have even lost their career over it, right? um But it seems like we're in a time where college athletes can speak up and they they won't lose their spot to speak up. We just saw quarterback last week ah leave his starting position because of a promise that wasn't kept, but also because the system allows him to.
00:24:40
Speaker
right um So like how powerful could the college athlete voice be if if they embrace this moment in time to not just gain access to information, but to be a part of a group like athletes dot.org where they can have a seat at the table and speak up with their school?
00:24:56
Speaker
Now, I don't see a better time in history than than right now, right, where, to your point, it's it's not only the NIL deal and the money that gives you leverage, it's also your ability to make choices about where you play and be able to just transfer and say, okay, well, you didn't keep your bargain, so I won't keep mine. That was an option that I didn't have, you know, when I went to Ohio State. Not that I would have left Ohio State, but Mel Tucker, who was the defensive coordinator, was the reason I came to Ohio State, and he left the year I got there.
00:25:23
Speaker
Before I even got to campus, he was on to the Cleveland Browns. And I wouldn't have an opportunity you know to really just make a choice. now Now athletes have those kind of decisions, and that gives them leverage when it comes to how the teams must deal with it, especially for the most talented. And I think that's really the biggest thing. It's it's your stars being involved and engaged.
00:25:46
Speaker
because the stars really are the reason that the stadiums fill up, the reasons that people buy the jerseys. And when those voices speak up, when those voices take stands, things have to happen, right? The games can't move on because this is what everybody's come to see. I think it's so much harder when you have some of the less popular players, even though their interests are most important, they have the least amount of leverage. And usually they're the ones that allowed us because they're getting squeezed to titles.
00:26:15
Speaker
But if if I were to encourage today's athlete, it would be to the stars of the of the league. The ones who benefit the most is to take a look at what is happening in the landscape, the the power you have with your voice, and figure out how to join you know organizations like athletes dot.org, get educated, and be able to so really not only set yourself up, but set up the generations of athletes that are yet to come. Because that's really what's at stake right here at this moment.
00:26:42
Speaker
All right, last question. There's been a lot of criticism about athletes using this newfound power from everyone ranging from fans to coaches to you name it, right? A lot of people, we just saw it on game day last weekend, like it was a whole segment, right? Like, like has the college athlete gotten too much power, right? I even had and a student at a debate I was a part of ask me a question about like,
00:27:11
Speaker
do I really think it's okay for somebody who's only 20 years old to have a million dollars? And so, you know, there's this kind of disconnect on like, this is the value being created by these athletes. When tennis athletes at 16 years old generate millions of dollars and win a purse at a tournament, they make the money, right? So what do you say to fans and others who feel like this newfound power is being misused and abused by college athletes?
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think you know football in and of itself is a very traditional game, conservative at its at its core. And it changes slower than any other sport out there in my opinion. It's fan base as well. And I think what we have been so used to are the core principles of football are things like teamwork, selflessness,
00:28:05
Speaker
you know, where you really are, you kind of dumb yourself down. Like we literally had rules about not celebrating and things like that, right? So I think when when it comes to athletes now having the power to be able to, you know, walk away from a coach or walk away from a team or make decisions for themselves,
00:28:27
Speaker
it makes the game the entire game feel uncomfortable. But for me, I'm i'm a fan of it because i'm um I think it creates more, it requires us to be more dynamic as consumers and as participants. You see a lot of coaches getting frustrated oh because now all of a sudden players have the choice to leave or go or do whatever they want.
00:28:50
Speaker
And they certainly have a an inability to create teams and and continuity. And it's like, yeah, it requires you to be a more dynamic leader. You know ah you no longer have the ability to just say, do this because I say so and i have your whole future in my hand. Now you've got to deal with somebody who has options. And that's it's not uncommon. We see it in a professional ranks all the time.
00:29:14
Speaker
It requires a dynamic leader. It requires partnership and collaboration. Those are things that we are not used to or given to college athletes. where It's more of a do as I say kind of situation, even for the fans.
00:29:27
Speaker
And so I think it's going to require us to be, a mind like I said, a more dynamic consumer of the sport. I've been, for one, I'm all about people being able to make choices for themselves, especially when they create the value that they create. We forget that even though this is a game, these are some of the best in the world at what they do. And I believe that any other you know profession, if you're the best in the world at what you do and you create value for a large immun organization, you should get a fair share of that product.
00:29:58
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, Malcolm, man, I really appreciate you making time to talk about this.
Conclusion & Audience Engagement
00:30:03
Speaker
I'm excited for our listeners to hear your perspective. And thanks again for your support with everything we're doing at athletes dot.org. No problem. i Thank you for having me. Great stuff from Malcolm. So appreciate him joining. Listen, if you're a college athletics leader, if you're a parent, an athlete,
00:30:23
Speaker
Check this book out comes out here in October. And listen, if you like what Malcolm had to say, I really, really, really, really want to encourage you to check this book out because he's a guy who has a lot of strong thoughts and spending a lot of his time on helping athletes get informed. And as you heard him say in the interview, understand their power to stand up and speak out.
00:30:46
Speaker
to have a seat at the table, which is of course what we're all about at athletes dot.org and what we're working on every day with thousands of current college athletes who are members of our Players Association. So it was a great opportunity to hear Malcolm talk about those same principles from his perspective. Now listen, we have a lot of great episodes coming out.
00:31:04
Speaker
here in season two. You may have noticed if you're on Instagram and you follow us at Now It's Legal Pod, we're always putting out teasers of new episodes so you can see who's next. So make sure you're following us on Instagram and if you're not subscribed yet, make sure you're subscribed to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify Podcasts, or on YouTube. So until the next episode of Now It's Legal, I'm Jim Cavell and for every one year, thank you for tuning in to episode four of season two.