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Chris Ogden - Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale - S3E7
104 Plays11 days ago
In this week’s episode of Now It’s Legal, Jim Cavale sits down with Chris Ogden, General Manager of Texas Men’s Basketball, to unpack the complexities of building a competitive roster in the modern era of college sports. Ogden shares how his role as part recruiter, part negotiator, part strategist, has rapidly evolved amidst a chaotic landscape of NIL, the transfer portal and the House settlement. He explains how retention, culture, fit and long-term development must now be balanced with real-time market pressures and limited structure. Despite the volatility, Ogden advocates for standardized contracts, shared rules and a sustainable model for athletes and programs alike.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Manziel had the high-selling jersey, Braun moved back to Cleveland. Drake made a song about a man he ain't even working.
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Now It's Legal, the podcast where we talk about everything past, present, and future in college athletics, which is going through in a massive amount of changes, especially with the house settlement and the fact that there'll still be no rules because we don't have collective bargaining.
Spotlight on Chris Ogden
00:00:27
Speaker
I'm your host, Jim Cavall, and we have a really fun episode today because we've been talking to college basketball coaches, um but we're also going to talk to GMs.
00:00:37
Speaker
And Chris Ogden is the GM of Texas men's basketball. Chris played at Texas, actually, when they went to the final four, lost to my beloved Syracuse Orange back in the early 2000s, 2003, Carmelo Anthony. Shout out, Melo.
00:00:52
Speaker
um But... Ogden ended up becoming a head men's basketball coach at the University of Texas, Arlington, and then came back to his alma mater in this hybrid role that's become the GM.
Challenges in College Basketball Management
00:01:05
Speaker
He's going to talk about what it's like to build a roster in this modern era of college basketball where we have the portal, we have NIL, we have the house settlement, and we still don't have any rules. We're to talk about all that much more.
00:01:17
Speaker
Here's my interview, Chris Ogden, GM, Texas Men's Basketball. So, Augie, we're here in Austin, Texas. I had to wear my my cool hat. I felt like, you know, this is the most Austin thing I have right now. I don't have a cowboy hat, you know? but um But, man, I'm really excited for this conversation.
00:01:35
Speaker
you're a guy who has such a unique background. You played at Texas, played in the Final Four. um You've coached not just at Texas, but you've been a head coach before at the college level, D1 level.
00:01:46
Speaker
um And you're a guy who right now is in this new, almost undefined role of being a GM for a college basketball team. So I wanna start right there.
00:01:58
Speaker
When somebody's asking you what you're doing right now, and they know you as Auggie, the player, the coach, and you say, I'm a GM. like How do you describe what it's like to be a GM at a big time college basketball program like Texas in this chaotic climate?
00:02:13
Speaker
ah Yeah, well, thanks for coming to town. It's interesting because I do get asked that a lot. I've been asked that for a few years now and and it's continued to change. My answer has continued to change.
00:02:27
Speaker
And it's such a different answer than a coach. um And and it's it's continuing to evolve and change. it's it's What it was even two months ago was a little different than what it is today.
00:02:41
Speaker
ah And where it is today has evolved into, you know, it's it's it's heading more towards what you would think GMs do or what GM general managers do in um in the pro sports, which is a lot of roster construction.
00:02:59
Speaker
and And that's my passion. That's what i love. But but it's it's not it's not just that in college by any means. I mean, there's there's a lot of different hats that that you've had to wear, wear whether whether it be from ah contracts, whether it be from setting up things and have an entrepreneurial hat and think about things that way, whether it whether it be...
00:03:20
Speaker
negotiating to a certain certain extent. And then there's basketball side of things that that come in play that that still would be aligned with what you did as an assistant. There's still a recruiting side to to all this that you you have your hands in to some degree. There's an evaluating side. There's there's so many different parts of it. and And the other answer I tell people is it's different at every university.
00:03:45
Speaker
um You know, there's fundraising involved with it. So at some at some schools, you know, the the GM may be totally different than what I do. It's just, um you know, it's an evolving position.
Collaboration with Coach Sean Miller
00:03:59
Speaker
And, ah you know, there's some days that I'm like, what am I doing? And then there's other days you feel like you're on the forefront of something. So you're the continuity here at Texas basketball. There's been several coaches, head coaches who've been in and out over the past decade, and you've been the constant.
00:04:17
Speaker
And so... You're in this GM role at a time where a new coach is coming in, Sean Miller. um And talk about what that's been like, because all coaches these days seem to have to start from scratch with the roster for the next season. There isn't a lot of continuity when it comes to player personnel um at any school because of the portal. But with you in this GM role, new coach, how's that process been? What's the vision? What's the situation? What have you got to build up from since he got here?
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Usually usually when ah when when a coach comes in, they they they want to they want to bring their own staff, which absolutely, I was the same way as a head coach. And Sean and I knew each other little bit just from being in circles of recruiting and coaching, but we didn't, we had never had breakfast together or anything like that. We didn't know each other.
00:05:07
Speaker
um But he got here and he was getting his feet um settled in and and we had a conversation and then another conversation and just just over time we got to know each other a little bit and aligned in a lot of ways of of the way we saw things and how you build rosters. um you know he he He hadn't had the GM position um per se at at Xavier.
00:05:30
Speaker
um So you know just kind of getting learning what I do and what I did and how how, um you know, in some ways on the forefront we've been with it.
00:05:41
Speaker
We just, we just eventually, you know, it came to the, ah came to the, to the agreement that he, he was like, Hey, let's, you know, let's do this. I, I think this could be a great move forward. And,
00:05:53
Speaker
It worked out great for me and my family. And so it's it's been great. I think he's he's highly intelligent. He's very thoughtful and organized. He's got a real plan in building rosters.
Complexities of Roster Building
00:06:05
Speaker
and um And I'm here to to help help him do that and hopefully provide some ah some different ways of thinking at some times. Yeah. So you talk about building rosters and you know the the reality is right now we're living in a recipe for chaos. There are no rules, right? um There's really no transfer rules. I like to tell people like, yes, there's a transfer portal, but technically you can unenroll and enroll anytime you want.
00:06:35
Speaker
um Contracts are difficult to enforce. um And so when you talk about building a roster, like what does it look like to build a roster right now with the lack of rules and with some of the impending things coming with the house settlement and revenue sharing, collective implications on that? There's a lot of unknowns and there's not really any rules, but you have to build a roster. How how do you go about that?
00:07:02
Speaker
Yeah, look, it's it's it it makes it really tough. It does. And we all want we all want some guidelines just just so you know where to start because that's the hardest part is how do you start.
00:07:13
Speaker
um I think we would all agree, coaches, GMs, whoever would all agree that that retention retaining and and and developing players is how you're going to win and build a program uh we're all in agreement there now it's how do you retain them how do you keep them how do you how do you get to that point um and some of it depends on um the situation you're in are you a new coach well you might have to lean more on the portal than you do high school and you don't have the time to develop right away and then you know, win now, build along the way. Or are you established and have already have some retention and and you just continue that and you supplement through the portal. So so you're figuring out um where you are, what you need at that moment, and then and then ultimately, you know, you've this is opinion, but but you've got ah you've got to get up a philosophy, an internal philosophy that that you believe in as an organization, as a head coach,
00:08:11
Speaker
as a general manager, as an organization in general. And I'm a big believer that that you build the roster for the coach. um The coach has a vision of the way he wants to play. um Coaches are brilliant in their in their in their thinking and and ah building out teams and winning and and there's an art form to it. And so you so you definitely want to build for for the coach. and so figuring out what that coach wants and what you are as an organizational as an organization philosophy-wise, I think you start there and then just you it's just one by one.
00:08:45
Speaker
So you talk the head coach and it's like, this is the type of defense we're going to play. These are the of players we want, not just size, but you know speed, quickness, all those things. And you go and identify the talent.
00:08:57
Speaker
that fits that vision.
NIL Deals vs. Professional Contracts
00:08:59
Speaker
But at the same time, there's this reality that the market value of that talent is still pretty relatively unknown because the data of what athletes are getting paid is almost entirely unknown, right? Like in the pros, you said earlier, the NBA,
00:09:15
Speaker
is an analogy of this when you were talking about your GM role, there's some similarities between a GM in college, a GM in the NBA. The reality is in the NBA, we know what every player is making. And we know if we're going to make a move for a player at this team, we know what we got to pay him, right? Like that part is unknown and that's got to be hard.
00:09:36
Speaker
And then also, The yeah idea that you do this like in conjunction with like not just building a team that fulfills the vision of the coach, but has chemistry. Yeah, that's the hardest part is is the unknown. we don't know what You don't know what you're up against. you don't You don't know what's real. You don't know what's true. And it's hard to build strategy around that.
00:09:57
Speaker
um And so you just right now, you just um you collect all the data you can and information to to help you three, four, five years down the road.
00:10:08
Speaker
um but But right now, you just you just take it one one situation at a time, one player at a time, one one opportunity at a time. Hey, this this player has an interest in Texas and and you and you make a decision based on what you already have and and that in that single situation and then ultimately, does it fit into what in my case, what Coach Miller believes in offensively, defensively, and player wise, does this fit what we need for for us to win, for Coach to to be excited about walking on the practice court every single day in the product that we're going to put on the court.
00:10:43
Speaker
So the compensation that that athletes are being offered, ah technically, whether it comes from a collective or whether it's this school revenue share that's starting with the house settlement, technically, it's an NIL contract.
00:10:58
Speaker
It's name, image, and likeness contract, which is another ah phrase for an endorsement deal. Right. Right. Now, I've always been confused. You know, I've i've always thought it was, I wish we would have named it something different earlier on, like endorsements, because we have the NLI, which is the national letter of intent. Well, that's gone It's gone. at the time, we have NLI, and then you have NIL, and you're trying to explain it to people, and it's like, it's endorsements.
00:11:24
Speaker
So for like fans or leaders or whoever's listening, watching the the easiest analogy is is that you have Patrick Mahomes. He does a endorsement NIL deal with State Farm.
00:11:36
Speaker
Right. And that's tied to deliverables like commercials, social media posts to promote State Farm. But then Patrick Mahomes also has a deal to play quarterback for the Kansas City Chiefs.
00:11:47
Speaker
And that comes with a base salary to play quarterback, but it also comes with bonuses and incentives for how well he plays quarterback, completion percentage, amount of touchdown passes, making it to the AFC championship, that Super Bowl, whatever it is, right?
00:12:01
Speaker
And that's how all pro athletes work. They have their endorsement deals, which is NIL, and then they have their, we'll call it pay for play, which is their contract with the team. Now let's bring it down to college. We're calling everything NIL, and we're basically disguising the pay for play portion as NIL because the leaders in college sports are worried about employment happening.
00:12:22
Speaker
And we all know what it is though. All the fans, everybody everybody knows this is pay for play. So you're tasked as a GM and your coaching staff is tasked with doing an NIL deal with players.
00:12:34
Speaker
And you bring them in but you can't really do that same type of pay for play contract that Patrick Mahomes has with the Chiefs where you can hold them accountable. You can give them a base salary, but there are incentives for shooting a certain three point percentage or getting a certain amount of rebounds per game or making all conference or making it to the final four.
00:12:53
Speaker
You can't put that in there because it would it would be a pay for play deal if you did that. That's gotta be really hard for a GM. There's also a reality that you can't, it's gonna be interesting to see the multi-year deal aspect be held up in an NIL deal versus if it was a pay for play deal.
00:13:10
Speaker
So all of these complexities end up falling on on you and the staff to figure out, okay, we have to figure out first, we don't know what they're getting paid or getting offered, but we're gonna come up with something we think can get a deal done.
00:13:22
Speaker
Then we get the deal done and now we gotta to keep them here and and And also make sure that there's chemistry in the locker room and everybody feels good about what they're getting paid and we got to hold them accountable to playing well.
00:13:35
Speaker
as That
Roles and Innovations as a GM
00:13:36
Speaker
seems like a really difficult task. Yeah, I mean, you summed it up. It it is a difficult task. That's where that's where you you you wear a lot of different hats from and entrepreneurial mindset and creativity of how do you ah do you give yourself a competitive advantage with a compliant hat that's how do we do this compliantly with a roster building hat and a team building hat and you know a coaching philosophy hat, a recruiting hat. And so, so so yeah, it all goes into this
00:14:06
Speaker
kind of hodgepodge of information being being thrown at you to make some decisions in a world that's just, you know, all right, players can make money in IL, go.
00:14:19
Speaker
You know, and and so, yeah. and and And early on, um you know, when I came back to Texas, I was the head coach at UT Arlington, and I left that position to come back here specifically for the role I'm in now, general manager.
00:14:35
Speaker
At the time, I called it managing director, just kind of being foolish and funny because Grant Hill is managing director of USA Basketball. so And so you want to talk about confusing people. They were like what is a managing director? That really confused some people. So so eventually changed it to to general manager. but But at that time, the thought process was, okay,
00:14:55
Speaker
It's coming down the pipe. NIL was not a thing then, but it's coming down the pipe. How do we at Texas close the gap between us and a Duke or or or or historically Duke? A blue blood. A blue blood, right? and And how do we close that gap? Well, now NIL has entered the game. Here's a new variable that's entered the game that hasn't been here.
00:15:16
Speaker
How do we close it out? so you So you started thinking entrepreneurially and strategically of how to how to take advantage of it competitively. um And so we actually, me and me and a a guy local here in Austin named Nick Shuley, we set out to solve this problem.
00:15:33
Speaker
and and And what we had at the top of our list was, how do you how do you do this but keep the cohesion in the locker room, keep the team, and do team building stuff?
00:15:45
Speaker
So we actually created the first ever collective. um based on team building type opportunities that we wanted our players to go out together in the community, do things in the community, quid pro quo, be paid for that, but then also connect them to the community to come to our games.
00:16:05
Speaker
Innocent start to this whole thing. And then everything just kind of went from there. And so now here we are in in this world and it's just, look, it's it's ah it's a different problem daily. It's a different problem, um,
00:16:18
Speaker
you know dealing with agents daily dealing and and dealing with uh players and confusion educating people on on what nil is and what the difference is and what endorsement is and you know states are different laws are different yeah taxes are different yeah um so there's just so many variables in in in the in the whole grand scheme of things that you just got to be mobile and you just got to be a problem solver and um and then and the rest of staff it is not just me as the gm um and it's not just a GM at another school, the whole staff, the assistant coaches, the the intel work they do and the relationship building they do with the players and with the agents, the the head coach, the there's a lot of people that go into making very important decisions, all getting getting back to roster development or or roster construction, team development, and at the end of the day, we're all we're all trying to win
00:17:14
Speaker
Right. Yeah, it's ah it's very complex. And you talk about the agents. you know You hear stories about the fact that the players right now in college basketball have all the leverage because there's no structure, there's no rules.
Financial Impacts and Challenges
00:17:28
Speaker
They can always be a free agent.
00:17:30
Speaker
um and We've heard stories about you know if a player has a good game, The agent will reach out to the team and say, hey you know, he's playing well if you want him to stay.
00:17:41
Speaker
How often do you think that's happening across college basketball? You know, look, I can only speak for us. I have had zero problems with with that's great with agents. Really. and and and i And and i and i say, first of all, I respect the job they're doing. They're doing a job for a client.
00:17:57
Speaker
yeah So I respect their role and in in the whole the whole landscape. um They didn't ask for this. right they're They're just doing a job and and and and taking advantage of a market. and but i But I've had none of that, of what of what you just described about Colin, about a player, he just played well, okay, I've had none of that. i've Every dealing I've had with an agent has been ah ah upfront and respectful, and I've actually enjoyed it because Because a lot of time in recruiting, you'rere you're selling and and there's a lot of salesmanship to it. And and with the agents, there's there's it's pretty it's a lot of times it's black and white. And they've been you know if you do what you say, then they have no problem and I have no problem. and
00:18:40
Speaker
So far so you know that world of things that I think sometimes gets up gets a bad stigma. Yeah Well, I think experience ah i think it gets a bad stigma sometimes because of the maybe newer agents that are emerging we'll call them right like the bad actors um Which of course is another thing that that could have some regulations around it does at the pro level you have to take a certification in your your fees are regulated, right?
00:19:05
Speaker
So, um interesting. All right, so moving back into that recruiting conversation. All right, so you you're at Texas. This is a place that has an above average amount of resources, but you know everybody's got limits, right? um you know When we look at the house settlement, one thing that's interesting is every school, even a school like Ohio State that's making the most gross revenue out of any athletic department, Texas is right up there with them as well.
00:19:32
Speaker
saying, hey, we don't have 20 million new dollars to spend on revenue sharing. We're going to have to figure out how to make that work. So um there's that aspect, but there's also the reality that going back to the beginning of NIL, you were in this role. This is a place where people are passionate about athletics, basketball and football especially.
00:19:51
Speaker
How have you been able to um play that to your advantage to make sure that you have the resources to compete with deals? Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, you know, um the the administrators, our bosses, the ADs, the presidents, the conference commissioners,
00:20:09
Speaker
um they they they've they've got a tough problem to solve, too. And and and part of it is that let's just take the $20.5 million. That's a new line item expense in a budget. So that's that's no, that's nothing. I don't care where you're at, Texas or any. I mean, finding $20.5 as a new operating cost, is that's that's a lot of money. yeah And so so that is that is a um a hefty task for athletic directors, administrators and people across the country.
00:20:39
Speaker
And then figuring out how that affects everything, Title IX, et cetera. You know, a lot, you know, we get to talking about all the money in college sports. Yes, we all we all agree. It's there.
00:20:51
Speaker
We do forget what what what all of the money from football media, basketball tournament media, like we we forget. it it does It does go to funding some really good things for other sports and opportunities and thousands of of young women and young um men that that play in sports that aren't revenue generating. So there is that side of it too. it's not like It's not like the money is just going to coaches and just going in.
00:21:19
Speaker
and blowing it it right it's funding a quite an operation ah you know across the board and in NCAA sports yeah collegiate sports some schools it's even 30 sports right like yeah exactly how state in North Carolina are exactly around there so you're you're and and now now that they're moving into roster so you know potential roster limits and ah full scholarship, I mean that's a huge deal. if you're you know If you're a swimmer from somewhere somewhere and you've you've been used to the best programs in the country having 40 people on the roster but only 12 scholarships to spread out and now they can have 35 all full scholarships, if you benefit from one of those full scholarships that's life changing in some families, right?
00:22:02
Speaker
So there is a lot of there was a lot of um there's a lot of good that's happened that I think you know we are failing to recognize to this point. And a lot of good that's going to come out of all this.
00:22:16
Speaker
um It's just right now we're in this very interesting time where where you feel that college college, the college landscape is is flipping a little bit. It's it's changing. yeah And it's rare in our lifetime that you see that.
00:22:29
Speaker
It is, it is. I mean, we are at a, it's a very crucial tipping point that we're in right now in college athletics, but it's been a culmination, right? This has been something that's been going on really, you know, since the seventies and eighties as college athletics commercialized its revenue, um, more and more, um, there is more and more attention towards, well, what about commercializing your expenses, meaning paying the talent. And Ed O'Bannon probably was the tipping point of that, which is why we have NIL. And that took, you know, seven years after the the case was decided, six years.
00:23:04
Speaker
And then we had NIL. But here we are with this settlement. And to your point, like, um you know, now scholarships are uncapped. We have less less roster spots, so the quantity is down, but the quality is is gonna be increased for all of those athletes, um but there are a lot of athletes that are gonna miss out because of that. You know, but one point on all this too is like, you know, and I don't have the answers, it's just, I just love the conversation in general. And and it's, um okay, if you start, I think you just said, um paying the talent.
00:23:36
Speaker
Right. Well, if you're if if going back to pro sports, they pay the talent, but the talent then goes pays for their housing and their food and their their their living expenses. i mean, you forget in college that their housing is paid for their college is paid for. That's a lot of money.
00:23:52
Speaker
Their food is paid for their medical is paid for their, you know, nutrition, nutrition. All these all these things are paid for. So now is it okay if you're going to pay the talent, do they pay for all that? you know I think people too many times pick a side and don't and don't and try and don't see both sides of the fence. like theyre There's a lot being taken care of. And I was a benefit. I was a college athlete and i benefited from that.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, so the the the settlement actually takes all that into consideration. So the the proposed split is very comparable to the NBA or the NFL. The split in those leagues is 50% of gross revenue goes to the players. So NFL does 20 plus billion a year in revenue and half that money goes to the players. And of course, that's via salaries, not the other things that you just mentioned.
00:24:40
Speaker
um They do get some benefits like medical and such, but they don't have their living paid for, to your point. um What they've done with this settlement is they've said, we're gonna count scholarships and benefits that you referenced, and we're gonna count these now NIL cash payments all together, and the total sum is 50% of the gross revenue. The difference is is some schools actually produce two, $300 million dollars of gross revenue a year.
00:25:09
Speaker
Some schools produce $50 to $100 million dollars of gross revenue a year. And so for everyone, it's going to be different in how they find that $20 million. And not all schools are going able to just start funding all these new scholarships. Some schools will say no. Some schools will get rid of sports. right So that's where these these negative fall-offs. And that's just the beginning of the the chaos that I think the settlement will cause. But...
00:25:31
Speaker
I totally think what you're saying is something people need to hear. I think that there is a lot of value in all those other benefits. I think there's also a reality that most of the money is driven by basketball, men's basketball and football.
00:25:44
Speaker
And those players didn't necessarily sign up to not get paid so those other sports could be paid for when they're generating as much revenue as they're generating. And I think that's the you know that's the devil's advocacy no do of it.
00:25:56
Speaker
um But you guys have all these resources and you attract a very high level athlete in in every sport at Texas, um but especially in basketball. And so that means that a lot of those athletes have and NBA dreams that are actually realistic.
Balancing NIL and Career Goals
00:26:14
Speaker
And so how do you, when you're talking about money in college, how do you remind them of the bigger picture and the fact that, hey, listen, like we're going to do it a really good NIL deal for you. You're also going to get this scholarship and academics, and you're going to play in this offense and all the things that are in the pitch. But then you say, and also, if all this goes right and you follow the system, you can realize your dream, and there's way more money in that. How do you balance that in your pitch, and how does that work? Well, it starts in the evaluation process, and nothing's more important than than evaluating the player, not just from physical skill set, basketball ah set of tools, but but ah family, ah how much do they care academically, how much are they about the bigger picture. And and so so you're you're you're gathering all this information for your pitch, and speaking here at Texas, the pitch is bigger than...
00:27:11
Speaker
this uh i don't want to call it small uh you know rev share publicity rights whatever it is moving forward contract because that's a lot of money uh to me um but there is a bigger picture out there and you try to get them to understand that that that being at the university of texas in particular there there is you know you're you're sitting in you're sitting in a uh in our nutrition area on a daily basis with Olympians.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, right. And and first picks in MLB drafts and and lottery picks in football and basketball. and And so it's it's a much bigger world. oh And by the way, you you walk across campus and you're with, you know, Pulitzer Prize winners and and scientists that are creating just, um you know, it's so so there's there's just so much, there's a bigger world to all this that in some cases includes their future as an athlete, which is a much bigger world than than what they're trying to do here. So we try to make it not about the money, more about the opportunity and about bettering somebody's life.
00:28:11
Speaker
I love it, I love it. And i think think that's the balance that allows you to also build a team that has retention and can grow chemistry together, right? Is having the types of of players that get that.
00:28:23
Speaker
right um you know again speaking just for texas it's you know texas isn't for everybody um and and and and so there's certain fits i mean as a when i was growing up being recruited you wanted to find the right fit it's all about the right fit and and uh even in pro ball and you're a free agent you want to write find the right fit a lot of times as opposed to ah just the most dollar um just because of the longevity of that. And so the same thing here, what what may be a fit for us may not, may not be a fit for ah Washington or, or, or LSU or somebody else. And, and so you just try to evaluate the kids and know that you're, you're bringing in the right fit, not just from the basketball side, which is, which is very important. You start there on the evaluation process, of course but it's all the Intel you gather.
00:29:17
Speaker
Otherwise, otherwise you're not going have retention. Right. So retention, is that how you measure how well you did at finding the right fit, like like your retention percentage from the previous year?
00:29:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's i think that's ah that's a good place to start, no question. and And this year was a little different because you have a new coach. But how about like last year? like what are some What are some numbers you could throw out on how well you guys with this year with the new coach, I mean, ah we we we we have retained six players from last year's roster. Yeah, that's great. Four of which played...
00:29:54
Speaker
meaningful minutes yeah and time. um And had played, three of which have played in multiple NCAA tournaments. Then Coach Miller, ah we we we brought in two players that played for him and at Xavier and had been on a tournament team, played the NCAA tournament.
00:30:12
Speaker
So between those eight players, even though they haven't played together, and even though two of them weren't here, they at least know the coach, we have a form of retention.
00:30:23
Speaker
We have some kind of yeah bond that's bigger than just individual talent. and And so you know when you can start with a base like that, then you feel like you're, okay, now you can build.
00:30:34
Speaker
um And over the last three years, we've we've we've certainly had that. We've had ah ah few changes in coaching you know over the last four years, but but like year two at Texas, the reason we were in Elite Eight team, retention. We had a bunch of transfers year one.
00:30:49
Speaker
Year two, six of them came back. Now you're good. yeah You look at the final four teams, they're just their their their retention. you know Duke had the freshmen, but they also had enough returning.
00:31:00
Speaker
Proctor. Houston had a lot returning, added a couple of pieces. Florida had a lot returning, added a couple of pieces. Auburn, lot returning. So it even last year, UConn and Purdue, their retention is is king at the end of the day, and we've benefited from it two years ago. We benefited from it a season ago, and we benefited from it this year.
00:31:23
Speaker
um you know just We just didn't, we we just, not enough of it you know to to to advance like we needed to. Well, I think that's still very impressive to have a new coach come in and have six players come back, four played, three meaningful minutes. I mean, that's ah that says a lot. And that that also backs up a lot of what you said on your approach throughout this this conversation.
00:31:48
Speaker
um So going back to NIL. So first of all, like the name of this show is Now It's Legal. I always joke that that's what NIL really stands for. And what I mean by that is, you know for for a long time, athletes have been getting money under the table at certain schools and certain sports. And we all know that.
00:32:05
Speaker
um And now it's out in the open. It's legal
Legal and Financial Implications of House Settlement
00:32:08
Speaker
to do that. And that's what NIL really became from 2021 when it started to the present through collectives. right It's out in the open, just enough. We don't know what athletes are necessarily getting paid.
00:32:18
Speaker
We don't get to see their contracts like we would in a pro league, but it's out there enough where we know that boosters are using you know a collective to be able to pay players to play at certain schools. Well, we're going to have the house settlement.
00:32:30
Speaker
So the house settlement, ah should it get approved, which it looks like it will, um is going to be ah really taking that collective NIL and moving it over to allow the school to do it itself, right? Up to 20 million a year cap.
00:32:46
Speaker
And you said the first problem of what I would say are the the three to four main issues with the house settlement. The first problem you brought up is even for a Texas, that's 20 million new dollars. Like, that's not going to be easy. And so the question is, how many schools will be able to actually afford $20 million? dollars I would say, if you just say the Power Conference schools plus a few others, probably 70, 75 schools, that's $1.5 billion dollars is going to go to athletes starting later this year.
00:33:14
Speaker
um the The second big issue is how do we split up the money, right? You mentioned Title IX, right? And so are we going to split up the money like a lot of schools where it's kind of going like 75% football and then you got you know somewhere around 15% going to basketball, 5% women's basketball, 5% Olympic sports.
00:33:33
Speaker
Some schools might do it different. But the the second big problem is you gotta to figure out how to split up the money. And there's probably gonna be a lot of lawsuits around how you choose to do that as a school. um and And then the the third problem is, what does the paper look like between you, the school, and the athlete?
00:33:51
Speaker
And that has there's a lot of reasons to ask that question. There's a lot of reasons that question's a problem. The biggest one is because it looks like employment, and it's probably going to lead to employment if if Congress doesn't do anything.
00:34:03
Speaker
um because it's a contractor agreement for somebody that's kind of treated like an employee as far as how often they're supposed to be certain places and and asked to do certain things. um but But there's also this reality of the contracts that, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't necessarily allow the the team to hold the player fully accountable for what what they're getting paid for because it's not a ah performance contract. So I wanted to get all those out.
00:34:28
Speaker
and And off of that, I wanted to ask you, there's all these other multibillion-dollar sports leagues that are out there. This one's different, right? um College athletes get all these benefits you mentioned earlier that are valuable.
00:34:41
Speaker
There's an experience that sets you up for the rest of your life that's valuable. There's sports that are really important to have ah continuance, especially for the Olympics, right? So there's all these other aspects that are important to acknowledge, but we need to have rules.
00:34:56
Speaker
right We should have a standard contract. We should have transfer rules. We should have ah compensation rules, minimum salary, maximum salary, veterans pool. We should have health and safety standards across all the schools. right We should have those things. and And so that's the mission you know that I'm on with athletes.org because I believe the only way to solve that is collective bargaining. But I want to ask you, like just thinking as a basketball guy who's been around the game for decades,
00:35:24
Speaker
if you were the commissioner of college basketball, like what are some of the rules you would like to see set for the game that you think would make the game better and preserve the things that are important for these young men?
00:35:36
Speaker
Like the basketball game itself or or or centered around the NIL? Not just NIL, centered around the rules that we need that we don't have for basketball to work. Yeah. um
00:35:48
Speaker
You know, I think i think that the the main one that that that I can speak on is I would love to see us all just under the same, ah if if Texas is under contract with a player ah for a publicity rights agreement, it should be the same ah wording, the same contract minus the number or whatever.
00:36:11
Speaker
as everybody else so a standard contract that's the first that would be the first thing that way it's just so much confusion as is as to you know um in that space you know that that that's one of the biggest things that that you don't know what you're up against kind of deal and it's very it's very unnerving and um and so that that would be the that would be the biggest thing that i would i would um push for is is that Anything on so outside that, I don't know, man. I read a different article every day. i try to research as much information as I can, and and and and I don't have the answers. um
00:36:48
Speaker
But do... but i do um I do ah do wish that. I wish we were under this all all under the same the same format. and and And then I do wish there maybe was multi-years.
00:37:01
Speaker
Okay, so that's another hard to rebuild. So that would be transfer rules. yeah so So what about, you mentioned earlier you haven't had issues with agents, and like I said, there's some really phenomenal agencies out there that have represented pro athletes for decades that are doing a great job coming down into college doing the same thing.
00:37:19
Speaker
And most of them would even say, be nice to have Agent regulations in college. Yeah, there's there's yeah, there's no doubt um Although like I said, I I really haven't had a problem. i mean if some of this other if if ah if the contracts were all the same I don't I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't be saying that as much because I think that kind of causes confusion in their world too and it causes them problems. I mean, I mean they're they're they're having to go through 50 different states' laws and 50 different yeah teams' contracts are all different, and and it's all based on that educational institution. and
00:37:56
Speaker
And so I think that causes a lot of confusion. And then you have the ah portal every year type thing. I mean, you know, the the NBA, we'll go back to the NBA and the pro league. I mean, you there's only about four or five contracts you can sign. on A rookie, a rookie extension, a veteran, a veteran minimum, ah a max. Like, there's only about, you know, four, five, six contracts you can sign.
00:38:18
Speaker
you know and so and so getting under you know getting under So you can build long term. you know When MBA organizations are building you know they're building for 10 years out probably.
00:38:29
Speaker
you know We only have kids for maybe five years. um And so it's a little quicker build, a little more instant strategy, but it doess ah it would allow you to build some strategy.
00:38:41
Speaker
Well, you know, just going into the the agent aspect, like the reality is in the NBA, it is a little simpler and less complex because there's a uniform contract that's agreed upon between the NBA players union and the league and the agents have to learn about that contract along with other regulations, take a certification, be certified,
00:39:03
Speaker
their fees are regulated and what they charge their clients, right? And as you just said, it's even more complex in college. There's different state laws. There's not a uniform contract.
00:39:14
Speaker
And so if anything, there's even a greater need for agents that are representing college athletes to be educated. I think this all goes back to There's a copy and paste a set of regulations that all these things are a part of in the NBA, to use basketball as the analogy. There is a standard contract. There are agent regulations. There is a minimum, a maximum. There's a salary cap.
00:39:39
Speaker
There's also, there's free agency, which is similar to what transfer rules would look like. And I agree with you. I mean, if you ask, if I was commissioner, sure, I would love to set all that in place. There's no doubt.
00:39:53
Speaker
How do you do that, thinking about the other side, how do you do that and protect these educational institutions? I don't know that I'm asking the question. Yeah, well, the way you do it is is um in the NBA, the Bucs players don't collectively bargain with the Bucs and the Hawks players with the Hawks and the Knicks with the Knicks, but they all collectively bargain with the NBA through the NBA Players Association.
00:40:17
Speaker
And so all of these higher education institutions would have to be a part of an entity that mimics a league like the NBA. um Maybe in college it would be this enforcement entity that's been started using Deloitte to regulate non-school and NIL deals. Maybe an an entity like that would be who negotiates from the school's perspective with the players to then have a standard contract, have agent regulations.
00:40:42
Speaker
have free agency and transfer portal rules, have all kinds of things that I think would bring a lot more structure to everyone, including you doing the job you're doing here in Texas. So that's how I would i would look at it.
00:40:54
Speaker
Yeah. No, I you know ah think that's the ah question that that that I would like to know. Yeah. because Because, sure, I'd i'd love to.
00:41:05
Speaker
see it as simple as as as the program. I mean, it may, you know, there's the endorsement side and then there's the contract side, which is the the salary side. and it And it seems pretty simple in those terms. But then when you throw college and institutions and whatnot, and and I'm not educated enough to know how that would work. So,
00:41:22
Speaker
um Yeah. Well, it is it is a very complex topic. Unfortunately for college athletics, the house settlement is going to only make it probably more complex because um how realistic is it? You know basketball really well. How realistic is it that whatever a school does choose to do out of the 20 million to pay athletes directly, there's not an icing on the cake from collectives?
00:41:48
Speaker
how how How is that really going to go down? And and when Deloitte and this enforcement entity says, oh, that deal is too high. That player is getting $100,000 from that collective or that agency, whatever the collectives position themselves at in doing that deal.
00:42:04
Speaker
That's too high $100,000. I don't know that that's gonna hold up right? And so whether it's that, which is I think going to be a mess, whether it's contract disputes, because these contracts aren't standardized, they're all different, like you were saying earlier, an athlete might get paid, but then leave and the school wants money back, but the athlete's not gonna pay it, or they're gonna sue the athlete for the quote unquote buyout, that might hurt recruiting, um let alone Title nine I mean, the annual tax of lawsuits,
00:42:34
Speaker
from the house settlement moving forward is gonna be significant. And it's not gonna be lawsuits against the NCAA. It's gonna be a lawsuit against Texas. It's gonna be lawsuits against Xavier. Lawsuit against the actual school and sometimes the coach.
00:42:46
Speaker
And that liability is I think why more and more people I'm talking to in private who are leading college athletic programs are like, maybe we do need to figure out how to do this a little more like the pros, because they don't get sued at all.
00:42:59
Speaker
They're protected by the government. you know And so that's where I'm coming from when I when i ask you these questions and and and say some of these ideas is, how do we stop the lawsuits? How do we bring structure? How do we bring more commitment back to programs from the players?
00:43:14
Speaker
um How do we set them up better for success after they're done? That's that's my motivation, which is the same as yours. yeah No, and and that's i mean that's it that's a ah ah great response to that question, and and I think one that ultimately...
00:43:32
Speaker
leaders in college are are looking for, you know, is is how do we fix it but protect it and protect us? Yeah. You know, so I do think that is um that that's the that's the big elephant in this whole deal that everybody, you know, the the elephant in the room that everybody's really trying to figure out is, OK, we get it.
00:43:51
Speaker
We get that it's moving this way. But how do we How do we protect ourselves, our institutions? our Yeah. you know Well, and and you know what what' what I love about you is since we met five years or so ago is you're always thinking forward. like We met through a mutual friend who is an innovative person, and he said you know we had a talk. And from the second we started talking a few years ago, um i always gravitated towards your forward thinking.
00:44:19
Speaker
Because like you said, you're not just you're not a basketball coach. You're not a GM. You're an entrepreneur. like You're thinking about this in an entrepreneurial way. um But when you bring up the eight figure cost that every new every school, is for them it's a new cost, it's $20 million dollars a year.
00:44:34
Speaker
The reality is there's actually a cost of doing nothing with setting these rules and collectively bargaining with athletes. And the cost of doing nothing is all those lawsuits that I just went through. Don't worry, I won't repeat it all again.
00:44:46
Speaker
But it's also, if you do nothing, it's a pretty good chance all college athletes are gonna be employees. And you want to talk about an eight-figure cost, having to pay minimum wage to every athlete, having to pay workers' comp and payroll taxes on top of whatever you're paying the athlete from this $20 million dollars number. That's another eight-figure cost to the school.
00:45:07
Speaker
And it's complex. And so we need more forward thinkers to think about how to structure this now before some of these costs of doing nothing only add to this new $20 million dollars cost right now.
00:45:22
Speaker
So so do you do you see it eventually getting to the to the world of a super conference that some people have written about or or a breakaway to some? sometimes Do you see that that happening?
00:45:35
Speaker
I mean, i think that it will happen in football for one reason, and that is all the schools are going to need more money. They're not going to be able to afford this new frontier of college athletics.
00:45:50
Speaker
And the only real new money is in one football media deal where everybody goes together to ESPN, Fox, and the networks.
00:46:01
Speaker
instead of a fragmented set of deals where the SEC's doing good and the Big Ten's doing good, the others aren't doing as good, and if they went together, I think they would make billions more a year, and I think that will motivate schools more and more as they have to go through this. I also think that big schools,
00:46:18
Speaker
who um bring most of the value to college football or college basketball, but especially college football, um I think they're going to want upside that they don't get right now.
00:46:29
Speaker
What I mean is, is Texas gets the same amount from the SEC media deal as Mississippi State. And Ohio State gets the same amount as Rutgers. And there's just a reality that the bigger schools are going to need to find new
Future of Revenue Sharing in College Sports
00:46:44
Speaker
sources of revenue. And getting pro rata upside on the conference media deal is something that I think a lot of schools are going want, too. The media money is really what the big money is. So within the conference media right deal, Texas and Ohio State,
00:47:01
Speaker
they work something out where they get a little more or no? Yeah. I mean, there's the problem. Now are you major league baseball or how does, well, you don't have to be, they, they, they could do it where they're all equal, but they go to market together and get a bigger total number that they're all splitting. That's what the NFL did. And that's why Wellington Mara,
00:47:21
Speaker
My beloved New York Giants, I'm a big Giants fan. Like, Wellington Mara made a huge sacrifice when Roselle did that AFL-NFL merger because the Giants had the most to lose and the Green Bay Packers had the most to gain.
00:47:34
Speaker
And a logical person who's advising Mara would have said, why the heck? are you go Are you doing this deal? You're going to be helping them and hurting yourself. But he saw the bigger picture and he said, I'll take three steps backwards because we're going to take a hundred steps forward.
00:47:47
Speaker
And he was right. And the NFL has become what it's it's become. But I'm just telling you that when Ohio State goes to the CFP final and makes 20 million bucks to do it and has to split that evenly with all 18 Big Ten schools while Notre Dame makes it, makes 20 million and gets to keep it all. Right.
00:48:07
Speaker
i can't I can't think that there wasn't a little bit of a, hmm, how long should we be doing this? And that's just the CFP deal. Then back it up. You got 18 schools in the Big Ten splitting the Big Ten deal evenly.
00:48:19
Speaker
And there's a reality that three or four of those schools, maybe five, drive the great majority of that value when it comes to viewership. Yeah, i think there's only probably you know anywhere from 12 to 15 schools that drive it all across the country. That's exactly right.
00:48:34
Speaker
But they can't live on their own. because they have to have, yeah, because nobody was going to watch the 12-team league all year. yeah But the question is, how many the other teams are a part of that league, yeah and what type of deal can they go out and get together?
00:48:48
Speaker
And then how much is the base that everybody splits, but where's the upside for the teams who perform well and win? That's going to be where I think college football ends up, but I don't think it gets there until the 20th. I mean, is there not benefit in, let's just use the Big Ten and the SEC for sake of comment.
00:49:06
Speaker
conversation. I mean, does their competitiveness in the market for for the rights not keep driving it and they still have the upside of the college football playoff? Yes, but there's really not upside in the college football football playoff because they're still splitting it evenly with the entire league. And these are 16 and 18 team leagues.
00:49:24
Speaker
And so I get what you're saying. I mean, there's, there's a, but ah ah I could be wrong. you You may have way more information on me than me, that but, but if, if Ohio state, uh, the further they advance, it still goes into the pot and they split it evenly. correct Are you sure they don't get an, uh, an extra unit on top of not in CFP, not in CFP, but in, but in basketball, that is what happens. Yes.
00:49:50
Speaker
Why not CFP? that's how it's currently constructed um so and that's where and there's the money's just a lot bigger yeah there versus march madness march madness is nice but you know cfp i mean 20 million dollars that's a that's a nice and that's that's your house money your house settlement money for the next season for notre dame they got it funded by getting to the championship so yeah i mean i hear you i think that the to go back to your question the the need for increasing revenue and the realization that doing it by putting a logo on a field or putting a logo on a jersey or you know finding some creative ways to do some sports marketing, like that's going to be pretty incremental revenue increases.
00:50:30
Speaker
And so the real way to do it is going to be through media
Need for Structured Rules in College Sports
00:50:35
Speaker
money. And the real way to grow media money is for the top tier of college football teams, whoever they are. It's the 12 teams you mentioned and another probably 30.
00:50:44
Speaker
those teams going to the market together for one media deal. And when that happens, it's going to be in the 2030s because conference media deals are pretty locked up for now. But I think that's where it ends up. But I don't think we need to wait for that to set all these rules.
00:50:59
Speaker
think we set these rules right now and protect the athletes and protect the schools in a beautiful partnership that looks just like the pro league partnerships. So...
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:51:10
Speaker
Man, I appreciate you spending time having this conversation and hosting me in Austin and excited about our time here together next day or two. And for those who got a chance to watch this, make sure you follow Texas basketball this year. They're on to something. And I'm excited to see what your re attention is this time next year.
00:51:28
Speaker
thanks for ah Thanks for having me and welcome Austin.
00:51:34
Speaker
Thank you so much to Chris for opening up his doors in Austin, Texas. Got a chance to really enjoy my time there with him, both in the podcast and outside of it around campus. And he's a guy who's forward thinking, right? He created his own role at Texas men's basketball, thinking beyond coaching. He left head coaching because he saw that all this was coming with NIL and now the house settlement, the transfer portal.
00:52:00
Speaker
And we need more forward thinkers like Agi to really be in a place to help guide the industry forward. So thanks to him, thanks to his ideas and his ability to talk about them with you.
00:52:12
Speaker
And thanks to you for giving it a watch or listen. If you're not subscribed, make sure you are on the podcast engine of your choice, whether it's Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts, or YouTube. too Just search Now It's Legal. You can find us on all three of those engines and subscribe.
00:52:27
Speaker
Also, make sure you're following us on Instagram at NowIt'sLegalPod, where you can get clips of upcoming episodes. For everybody on our team, I'm Jim Cavall. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Now It's Legal.