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Andy Kennedy - Now It's Legal Podcast with Jim Cavale - S3E4 image

Andy Kennedy - Now It's Legal Podcast with Jim Cavale - S3E4

S3 E4 · Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale
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Andy Kennedy is currently the head coach of the University of Alabama Birmingham men’s basketball team, leading them to two March Madness appearances. His coaching career began as an assistant at the University of South Alabama from 1994-1995. Andy was also an assistant coach at UAB and the University of Cincinnati before becoming Cincinnati’s interim head coach. From 2006-2018, Andy was the head coach of the University of Mississippi men’s basketball team.  Andy joins Now It’s Legal to discuss his coaching career at UAB and Ole Miss, and his thoughts on the current landscape of college athletics.  
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About Now It's Legal   
In July 2021, NIL forever changed the trajectory of college athletics. It’s been a long time coming as the NCAA has long needed changes like NIL, the transfer portal, revenue sharing and other benefits for college athletes.   We introduce to you the Now It’s Legal podcast. Join us as we discuss the industry that holds the hearts of millions of fans who want to understand where its trajectory is heading. We are talking to those who are invested in and affected by NIL including: Former and current college athletes, presidents and head coaches, broadcasters and media personalities, investors and more. This is just the beginning of NIL and what it means for the future of college athletics.        

Host Jim Cavale is a former college athlete and entrepreneur who has become an advocate for young athletes across the country. In 2017, he created the INFLCR app that allowed athletes to build their brand on social media, and in 2021, evolved into the NIL management technology for more than 100,000 athletes across 200 college athletic programs. INFLCR has since been acquired by sports tech titan, Teamworks.        

In 2023, Jim founded Athletes.org which which is the players association for college athletes to negotiate the best terms for their college athletics experience. AO provides its member athletes with a free membership, empowering them with a voice, on demand support, and group licensing income in the same ways that professional league associations do for their member athletes.        

Tune in to a new episode on Wednesdays this summer and join in on the conversation on Instagram with @nowitslegalpod and @jimcavale.

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Transcript

Introduction to Andy Kennedy and College Athletics

00:00:00
Speaker
Manziel had the high selling jersey, brawn move back to Cleveland. Drake made a song about a man he ain't even working. Welcome to another episode of Now It's Legal and we're gonna have a fun time with this conversation as we're gonna be talking to UAB head men's basketball coach Andy Kennedy.

Candid Opinions on College Athletics Issues

00:00:22
Speaker
Now If you know AK, like most of the college basketball world does, this is a guy who is as candid as possible about everything. And there's a lot to be candid about with the house settlement and the transfer portal and NIL and the lack of structure and rules we have right now in college athletics.
00:00:40
Speaker
And AK goes in hard on all of these topics and more from a head coach's perspective.

Kennedy's UAB Legacy and Challenges

00:00:45
Speaker
Now, Andy Kennedy was the head coach for over a decade Ole Miss and then a broadcaster with ESPN.
00:00:52
Speaker
But he's a UAB guy at heart. He played there, scored 2,000 points there. And he's a guy who has taken over that program and won more games. than most. He has actually only got 10 other teams that have won more games than him in the last five years.
00:01:08
Speaker
So he's averaging 25 wins a season and crushing it at UAB at a time where it's not easy to do if you're not one of the big boys with an unlimited budget. How does he do it? What does he think about college athletics? Where should it go? Let's check out our conversation.
00:01:24
Speaker
Well, coach, first off, thanks for making time. I know you're in the middle of building a roster and all that goes into the current reality of being a college basketball coach. And and so so thank you for

Chaos in College Athletics and Roster Challenges

00:01:36
Speaker
for making time. Of course.
00:01:38
Speaker
You know, I think where I want to start is we're living in a a recipe for chaos in college athletics in general, but definitely college basketball. I mean, you have no transfer rules or free agency rules, no salary cap.
00:01:52
Speaker
and no real accountability or enforcement and i just love this start there like what does it look like with those realities for you at uab to go out and build your roster jim first off man yeah my pleasure you and i go way back man i appreciate you i just finished my 18th year as a head coach my 28th year as a coach, 10 as an assistant, 18 as a head, and then four years as a player. So I've been in this space for over 30 years, and this has probably been the most challenging spring of my career.
00:02:28
Speaker
just because of all of the unknowns. it We always say, hey you know what's the goal? what Give us the outline as to what do we have to do in order to achieve success.
00:02:40
Speaker
But the outline seems to change. It's like the old Etch-a-Sketch. You and i are old enough to remember the Etch-a-Sketch. they put the outline on the Etch-a-Sketch and then every other day they're shaking that thing up. So it's just hard to to navigate.
00:02:52
Speaker
But the reality is nobody really wants to hear all that. if anybody will when when When the fall rolls around and we start playing games, they want to have a competitive team. So for us, it's been challenging on a number of fronts. It's the first time in my career that I've had to replace an entire roster. I said that correctly. We do not return one minute of action off of last year's 24-win team.
00:03:17
Speaker
wind team so We're trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together as best we can. i always encourage my players to play off two feet. I say encourage. That's what coaches do, right? You encourage.
00:03:28
Speaker
I encourage it pretty strongly, but I want my guys to play off two feet, meaning when they get in traffic, if they play off two feet, they have the ability to pivot out of trouble. And I'm having to live that now as a coach, trying to play off two feet, make sure I can pivot to find the right avenues.
00:03:46
Speaker
So you talk about losing all of your minutes, all the guys who played last year. um lot of great stories of of guys who developed some in just one year with you, not even a full calendar year, just one season, um made great progress.
00:04:01
Speaker
And obviously the ultimate example of that is Yaxl. um You are a coach who does not try to push guys to stay. If they've developed past a certain level, you want them to get the best possible situation for themselves. And I think think that's something that that should be celebrated.
00:04:20
Speaker
Talk about losing some of these guys, but seeing them go play at ah at a higher level power conference, or maybe with Yaks at the NBA, knowing where they started with you.

Player Transfers and Honest Coaching Dynamics

00:04:30
Speaker
Well, at the end of the day, we we have conversations every year. Even before the transfer portal was as prolific as it is today, even before NIL was so in your face, at the end of every season, I was a transfer.
00:04:45
Speaker
And when I was a transfer back in 1987 from North Carolina State, from Jim Valvano to Gene Bartow at UAB, was almost like a scarlet letter. It was a dirty word. Like, hey, if you're a transfer, something must be wrong with you. Right. and obviously so Obviously, that hit the bill with me. However, now it's almost like if if kids don't transfer, it's like this FOMO thing. Like, oh man, I got to put my name in the pool or I'm missing out. and The thing has just really changed 180 degrees.
00:05:14
Speaker
For us, we always try to put the kids in the best position possible to be successful. If that happens to be here, great. But if it doesn't look like it's going to work out, I want guys to have an opportunity to play because if you if you don't play your whole experience your whole collegiate experience is going to be marred by woulda, coulda, shoulda and we try to avoid that. um I'm very very honest with guys maybe hey here's how it's looking I think maybe you should look at a different level and then to your point this year we had guys that are all transferring up to P4 levels and and we were very
00:05:49
Speaker
forthright and trying to help them navigate these things just based on what they were looking for, what they told us they were looking for. Some guys are trying to grab a bag and, hey man, I ain't mad at that.
00:06:02
Speaker
Do what you gotta do. And then some guys are just looking to take that next step in their maturation, like a Buddy Johnson. Buddy Johnson was with us for three years, loved the kid. And he's just looking for something else in year four.
00:06:14
Speaker
And so I think he found a good match in Clemson. We've got ah a number of guys that all gone to different levels. And then the actual story has been ah an amazing story. You know, nobody knew how to pronounce his last name when he first got here. And now hopefully Adam Silver is going to have to pronounce his last name on the biggest stage of all. There's a kid that could have left after year one, trusted the vision,
00:06:40
Speaker
We built a bond and he understood that we were what we said we were and we were going to continue to help put him in the best position possible So he could be standing where he is currently.

Talent Evaluation and NIL Dynamics

00:06:50
Speaker
So you're coaching in this this modern era where athletes can be paid It's not pay for play It's nil, but we all know it really is pay for play just disguised as nil How do you evaluate talent and balance the you know, money topic that surely gets brought up in all of your recruiting conversations now with the development topic, the team chemistry topic, the winning topic that used to be a part of the the core sales pitch of coming and playing for a program.
00:07:21
Speaker
It's odd, Jim, you know and and I'm not saying we always get it right. There's a lot of times we get it wrong. It's speed dating for sure. You're trying to to do a lot of evaluating on a number of fronts. Number one, you have to be, but before they're going to get a call from me as the head coach, I've got to make sure that you're good enough.
00:07:37
Speaker
Right. Are you good enough? Do you check the talent box? Once you check the talent box, then we've got to really start vetting about what is the ulterior motive? Is it is it chasing the biggest bag?
00:07:47
Speaker
Again, I'm not mad at any of that. right I'm just telling you that it's not gonna be at UAB. If that is the ultimate goal, God bless you, but let's don't waste each other's time. So we go through that and then we go through, again, schematically trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
00:08:04
Speaker
I made reference earlier to the fact that that we didn't have one scholarship player returning from last year's team. We had signed three kids early and we had had a commitment out of a fourth. So we knew what those four people, we we felt like this is what the strengths of those four kids are. Now we have to build around it. So piece five comes, then we're looking for something else in six and something. So it it is ultimately the the game of putting the pieces together so that at the end we have a puzzle that makes sense.
00:08:35
Speaker
um It has not been easy because a lot of guys can solve problems with the stroke of a check. We don't happen to happen to be in that in that genre. For us, it it is about putting yourself in a position to play to the Bartos standard. I've always coined that when I first got here. Nobody says, what does that mean? it means playing Competitive basketball where you're competing for championships as you as you go throughout the course of the season. We've been able to do that in all five of our years, competing for championships as we get down to the stretch of the regular season and then ultimately playing meaningful basketball in the month of March. And we've been able to accomplish that as well. There's 364 Division I basketball teams and only 10.
00:09:15
Speaker
out of that 364 can say they've won more games than us over the last five years so as we've won 125. So we sell all of those things and putting them in the best position possible to increase their value, whether it be at the professional level or whether it be putting themselves in a position for the following year to get back in the portal and increase the bottom line.
00:09:37
Speaker
It's amazing that that's even like, that that really is a part of it It's like, there's a reality that you may have a guy for one year and he could be a really good player for you and um you know you develop him, but the reality is, is he gets to a certain level that he's gonna go to Texas A&M, he's gonna go to Clemson, and you just have to accept that as a coach. Exactly. There's nothing you can do about Nothing you can do. So we embrace it. We talk about, hey, this is what the kid came in, and this is what his value was when he got to UAB. This is what we were able to do for him, and this is what he's getting now. he Becomes a partner to pitch.
00:10:10
Speaker
Oh, without question. Pretty good pretty good return on investment. yeah Now, how do you build... team chemistry, like how do you get, like getting that to click is an art of its own in a short period of time and and a lot of, you you've had to do it during seasons. I mean we've seen two different teams this past year, right? The end of the year team was completely different than the beginning of the year team.
00:10:32
Speaker
What's that? What's the formula there? you know I think team chemistry is probably one of the most overused cliches in our space. and And I use it as well. I think it's very, very culture, chemistry. We all talk about those things. but What does it mean?
00:10:48
Speaker
Chemistry, team chemistry does not mean Gemini holding hands singing Kumbaya. Right. um I'm going to have 12, 13 guys on scholarship in my locker room, and they all were probably the best player from wherever they came from.
00:11:05
Speaker
A lot of those guys in the room are going to be alphas. So we've got to just come together with a common cause. That's all. yeah That's all. that That's what chemistry means. It means we all have to sacrifice, starting first with me as the leader of the program.
00:11:18
Speaker
We all have to sacrifice in order to put our team in the best position possible to have success. And then with that success, everybody eats. And it's easy to say that.
00:11:30
Speaker
It's hard to live it. so So we're looking for a certain temperament. We're also looking for a certain chip. We're looking for guys that want prove something on a bigger stage. We're looking for self-starters.
00:11:42
Speaker
I would rather have to ratchet you down a little bit than constantly have to pump you up to get you to go. All of those things are important as we're trying to to go through the process of of finding guys that check the majority of the boxes. I'm not foolish. We're probably not going to get someone who checks every box, but if they check the majority of the boxes and we have a good feel for what they can bring to this program, then there's somebody that we recruit and we recruit hard.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I think on top of the team chemistry thing, think you're right, like getting guys to be best friends and, you know, comrades is, you know, that's nice. But just guys knowing how the other player on the team gets over a pick versus has to be helped out with a switch or, you know, just certain looks they give each other that is going to help them know what play to run, improv, and embeds tough situation. People just need to complement one another. Complementary, yes. That's what a team is ultimately. Yeah,
00:12:39
Speaker
um All right, so thinking more about the industry and and and where

Structural Changes and NCAA's Role

00:12:43
Speaker
we're going. So, you know, and this can be more of a conversation. If you have questions for me, feel free to challenge me on something. But what's interesting is you have ah a multi-billion dollar sports and entertainment business, college sports.
00:12:55
Speaker
And most of that comes from football revenue. But March Madness is a you know multi-billion dollar revenue producer. March Madness is what the NCAA keeps their doors open by. Correct. Their number one revenue. And you know this, but for our viewers, exactly. football the The football championship it kind of goes to the teams that are playing in that. That's separate from the NCAA under their auspice of of of authority. incor Correct.
00:13:18
Speaker
The NCAA is run. All of the championships are run off the back of the revenue that's produced by the men's championship. Correct. Yeah. So the the men's March Madness is... is really what is the 90 plus percent of the NCAA's revenue comes from that, and that's how they run.
00:13:34
Speaker
and And football actually doesn't even go to the NCAA. It's the CFP, which is a separate entity. So like you said, to educate those who might not know some of those things. But in any multi-billion dollar sports and entertainment business in America,
00:13:47
Speaker
there are rules and there's structure. And a lot of the rules and structure pertain to not just how the games are played, how many games you play, but the talent, right?
00:13:59
Speaker
And so the NBA, they do $10 billion dollars of revenue annually, and they collectively bargain all the rules, free agency, health and safety standards, minimum salary, maximum salary, veterans bonus.
00:14:11
Speaker
And it's all based off the revenue earned. It's all based off revenue earned. They make 10 billion, 5 billion goes to the players, 50% revenue distribution. In the NFL, it's 20 billion, 10 billion goes to the players, all through what is known as collective bargaining, right? The players have a vehicle in the NBA, it's the MBPA, and they collectively bargain all the rules with the and NBA, right?
00:14:31
Speaker
um In college athletics, what we have right now is we have a multi-billion dollar sports entertainment business, that's been going through this transition from scholarships and some of the associated benefits being enough to justify the talent existing as they exist.
00:14:49
Speaker
But now we're learning, well, because of lawsuits, we have to pay the athletes, right? And of course, I've always been a proponent of this, you have too, um but there's a way to do it with structure. right um If you were to think about some of the you know the the top five or three things structurally you'd like to see happen for all of college basketball, but also to make your job a little ah more linear, what would those things be The first thing would be,
00:15:15
Speaker
conformity, as you know right now, it's almost like state by state because of the legal system. Certain people are more involved than others as it relates to state government and they're making rules that benefit their constituents, which makes perfect sense. That's the whole point, isn't it? right I think we we need some national conformity. How do we do that with ah with an NCA that really doesn't have the power to and to to initiate that any longer? So then everybody's saying, well, we need Congress to step in.
00:15:43
Speaker
I don't know how that's gonna work. Who's gonna step in? I mean, what does that mean? I don't even know what that means, honestly. um and And I think they're just continuing to stick their finger in the hole, and then something else pops off over here.
00:15:59
Speaker
I was a player, I'm for player empowerment. I also think there there needs to be a system of checks and balances so that it's fair. I'm even okay with this and some people aren't gonna like this. Back when I played here, UAB, I played here 88 to 91. So in 88 to 91, UAB, Alabama, Auburn were all in the same canoe.
00:16:23
Speaker
You know, sometimes Alabama was at the front, sometimes UAB was at the front, sometimes Auburn. But we were all in the same canoe as it related to recruiting the same players, having the same goals, having the same resources in order to achieve those goals.
00:16:38
Speaker
Those days are so far gone. he them know I'm still in the canoe. But but they're in submarines. way ah It's just changed so much. yeah so yeah I just want to be able to play whatever it looks like with people that are fighting with the same tools that I'm fighting with. Yeah. You know, I just need some conformity. That's what I'd like to to see, number one. and And I'm like you, I don't think any of this gets resolved. And I'm 57 years old. I don't know how much, i don't know I don't know if I'll ever see it. But I do think that collective bargaining, figuring out a way to, to
00:17:17
Speaker
contractually obligate student athlete to university and university to student athlete. That's the only way any of this, in my opinion, is going to get resolved long term. Yeah, and what you're talking about with the state laws would be just, it's called preemption, and it would create a uniform federal bill, and you do need Congress to provide that preemption.
00:17:36
Speaker
um So, you know, I think that's a, for you to mention that first, I think is wise, because that's the first thing we need, we need uniformity. Instead, what we have right now is a pure race to the bottom.
00:17:48
Speaker
Everybody likes having different state laws and not having rules if they have a lot of resources because they can take advantage of it and get the biggest head start possible for when we do have rules. And that's why you're seeing this gap. do you think What do you think about these theories that now the mid-major making a run to the Final Four is over?
00:18:09
Speaker
Do you think that's true? I'm not sure it's over. i take a Florida Atlantic, for instance. ah Which was only two years ago. Right, the ability to hold that team together and try to run it back, which they obviously didn't do, those days are over. But if you can come together and have this collection of guys, I still think it's possible. I think the likelihood of of of that happening has has been diminished considerably. Like you think about the George Masons, the VCUs, those teams got old together and they were able through a continuity, through a through a chemistry, they were able to overcome maybe some lack of other things that maybe the high majors have that they didn't because they'd been together long term. I think those days are over, but I do think that you could still
00:19:00
Speaker
you know, have an opportunity to hit it in the gap and and and score some

Mid-major Teams and NCAA Tournament Challenges

00:19:04
Speaker
runs. Yeah. I hate it because I don't think You can't create these Cinderella's. I'm not for, hey man, throw all these teams in there with the hope of finding a Cinderella.
00:19:14
Speaker
But without opportunity, you certainly are not going to have many Cinderella's moving forward. Do coaches, when you're amongst other coaches, these solution topics, do they come up a lot? Collective bargaining, we need rules.
00:19:27
Speaker
Is this something coaches talk about on their own? You know what's crazy, though? It's changed so much, even in my... Tenure as a coach, we used to think more big picture problems, but now because the landscape shifts so rapidly, it's all in the here and now. We're all just trying to survive the week and then the next week. Seriously. I mean, the i mean the whole the whole like guy looking down the road piece those conversations are not nearly as prevalent as how do we stop this avalanche? I mean, how how do we keep from being crushed with this avalanche that is happening right now?
00:19:59
Speaker
So it's almost ah like like you don't want your players to be, but but you're you're almost just reacting to something as opposed to trying to put something in place long term. But we don't have the ability to do that.
00:20:11
Speaker
The NCAA certainly has not taken the forefront of of of trying to say, hey, I'm the lighthouse, that was the goal, right? I'm the lighthouse, you guys follow me.
00:20:21
Speaker
Because now they're just getting sued to oblivion. And I don't think that's gonna stop. I think i think the it's foolish to think, okay, like right now it is the wild, wild west. Because there's monies that have to be spent before the house settlement rules go into place.
00:20:38
Speaker
The numbers are just... astronomical for the viewer out there. Trust me, I deal with them every day. It would blow your mind. so So there's all this money out here. There's all of this unease. There's all of this uncertainty.
00:20:52
Speaker
And so then they say, okay, but once we get this house settlement, then everything's gonna settle down. Whoa, whoa, whoa. So then then we're gonna get into some Title IX stuff. If you go one way, this group's gonna sue you If you go the other way, that group's gonna sue you. That's gonna happen.
00:21:05
Speaker
And then they're going to get into, okay, we're gonna... We're going to nominate Jim here and you're goingnna you're going to tell me the fair market value of my kids for anything above $600. That's going to get sued to oblivion.
00:21:21
Speaker
ah So we're just going to continue in this tumultuous phase, in my opinion, for another couple of years until something else happens. The way I look at it is the the leaders in college athletics, coaches and ADs are being waterboarded just with all this stuff, right? And and there was a little bit of a phase earlier this year where I would talk to athletic directors, especially at the power conference schools and commissioners, and they would say, you know, getting the house settlement done is us doing what Congress told us, which is to get our house in order. They were using it as a pun intended. Right. the House settlement is us getting our house in order and Congress is gonna protect us setting the rest of the rules.
00:22:02
Speaker
Well, that hasn't happened. Ted Cruz, who was supposed to come out with a bill that was gonna solve all the other problems, it's not, it's fallen on its face because, I mean, let's be honest, right now, what can Congress really agree on? There could a ah Republican bill for world peace. right Seven Democrats ain't voting for that bill. So,
00:22:18
Speaker
Now that the Congress game has slowed down, think a lot people are realizing the House settlement's only gonna solve like 5% of the problems. It's almost like paying past dues. is. We're not talking about what's happening moving forward. Correct. And so what you just talked about, I think, is even worth breaking down further.
00:22:37
Speaker
There is a a myth that you can't keep doing collective deals, NIL collective deals like you're doing them today, once the house settlement's approved. If you're at the cap of 20.5 million. Correct, so so now it's like, let's get as many collective deals done as possible.
00:22:52
Speaker
Now, at a time where guys are being locked in for next year for football and basketball anyway, let's get them done now. And then, when the house settlement happens, starting in July, we'll be able to pay the athletes directly as a school.
00:23:02
Speaker
up to $20.5 million, dollars so we'll do that too. But that's going to inflate what the value of some of those players is worth. So when we get, fast forward a year from now... The numbers will have to be back down. They say that, but I think it's going to... It might not. Because I don't think the Deloitte system is going work. I just don't think... I'm not even there yet.
00:23:24
Speaker
Isn't that called collusion? I don't think you need to those things. So then we're going to get... Then let's say house gets approved, we're gonna get to a point where, okay, it's been approved, everybody's done all those collective deals, but now people are gonna get, you know, play the system and see how it works. They're gonna test it, right?
00:23:40
Speaker
And it's, damn if you do, damn if you don't. If you test it and they say no, there's gonna be a lawsuit. I can't tell you how much to sell your house for. It's what somebody's worth, It's worth what somebody's willing to pay. um But then on the other side, can be a situation where you know um you get away with it and you're just gonna keep doing more and more and the cap's not gonna really be 20.5 million, it's gonna be 20.5 million plus whatever your collective can do. So it's still not in a place where there's an agreed upon cap that's been collectively bargained between the players and the schools and anything else that relates to player compensation can be governed.
00:24:16
Speaker
Let me give you an example, WNBA. WNBA has a collective bargaining deal. The average salary in the WNBA is somewhere in the 70 to 80,000 range per player. The Las Vegas Aces got an offer from the city of Las Vegas for their players to promote the city through social media and other ways for 100 grand each.
00:24:34
Speaker
The league stopped it. Why? Because that's an unfair advantage for the Las Vegas Aces on top of compensation. All the ladies would want to go. to Exactly. course So that's and the purest example I could find in pro sports of a collective type deal being ah regulated.
00:24:49
Speaker
and it's because there's a collective bargaining agreement. So whether it's that, whether it's agent regulations, regulating agent fees, certifying agents, whether it's you know health and safety standards, minimum salary, maximum salary. How about a veteran's bonus that allows you to have motivation to stay at a school?
00:25:06
Speaker
ah multi-year deals where maybe Yaks has signed here for two years. He just played last year and now he wants to go to Michigan. Michigan's got to buy him out of the contract with you. This is what's mind-boggling too, because we've had a lot of these conversations. How about this? if If you can put in incentives, like I have incentives in my contract. I get a bonus if we win the league championship. I get a bonus if we go to the NCAA tournament. I get whatever, okay? Built-in bonuses um ah that that I'm trying to aim for as a team.
00:25:33
Speaker
<unk> I've posed the question, well, why can't we do that with our team? Hey, if if if our team, everybody, if if we go to the NCAA tournament, then everybody gets X. If we do this, everybody.
00:25:44
Speaker
And I've been told that you can't do that because that's that's more tied to performance. less But but but i can I can give you a bonus if you're all conference. So I'm trying to create this incentive for you to be selfish. conference is the worker.
00:25:58
Speaker
All-caverns is the word I am. I can give you a bonus if you're All-Compers, but I can't give you a bonus if we win something that that collectively we're trying to do as a team. One of those trophies, nobody gets a bonus, but if you're All-League, then I can give Isn't that crazy? It is crazy, and it's it's sad because As you know, I worked in college athletics on the business side for the past decade, and I worked with a lot of the leaders. i didn't work with presidents, but I worked with ADs and commissioners, and obviously athletes and coaches with influencer and team works. And I have some great relationships with different leaders, including the leader here, Mark Ingram.
00:26:33
Speaker
but But the reality is college athletics leaders are very integral people. The ones I know, they have high integrity. But they're missing integrity on this one. There's not one leader that can look in the mirror and say that this isn't pay for play.
00:26:51
Speaker
We're calling pay for play NIL. It's not NIL. These aren't endorsement deals. These are performance based deals. And the only reason they're doing that is because they're scared of employment happening.
00:27:01
Speaker
But just doing a papered up contractor deal with all the players is already going create employment anyways. Like let's call it what it is. Let's put in the contracts real performance clauses so coaches can hold the players accountable to what they signed on to play point guard, signed on to play shooting guard.
00:27:18
Speaker
and And this thing where we're working around it with all conference is, it's missing the boat because like you said, there's really a way to create incentives that are tied to performance that the school, if you go to March Madness, is gonna win off of that. Sure, more team-oriented as opposed to individual. Correct, correct. But they're they're they're missing the boat. There's no way they can look in the mirror and and say, this is not pay for play.
00:27:40
Speaker
It is. And if we structured the deals as such on paper, it would make your job a lot easier. Yeah, yeah i don't i would I would like to know, mean, you you know a lot of but more about this than I do.
00:27:52
Speaker
um But what is the answer? In my opinion, it's it's not even going to be an NCAA thing. It's not going to be a a Congress national edict. I think it's going to go league by league. I think i think the SEC, Greg Sankey, brilliant man, friend of mine, and and and Big Ten and Big 12, they're all going to get together and say, this is how we're going to rule our fiefdoms, so to speak. Yeah.
00:28:16
Speaker
and if And I'm not saying you have to do this if you go to UAB in in and another league, but in our league this is going to be the set of standards and it'll have to be collectively bargained ultimately. Do you agree? Yeah, I do agree. And and I think actually the purest example of the entity that could collectively bargain with the players is this enforcement entity that's been created for the house settlement.
00:28:39
Speaker
It's an enforcement entity with board members from the A4 schools, the autonomy for schools. and That's the group that's gonna have the Deloitte system that we just both said we don't think is gonna work. But um to back up, collective bargaining will be the solution. there's There's no other way to do this, to set rules that can be enforced without further litigation.
00:29:00
Speaker
Collective bargaining is going to be the route. Now, right when I say that, there's a bunch of leaders that say, well, we can't collectively bargain. We're in a right to work state. We don't allow for unionization or state. The Atlanta Falcons players don't collectively bargain with the Atlanta Falcons. The Detroit Lions players don't collectively bargain with the Detroit Lions. right They all collectively bargain with the NFL. right There needs to be a league entity that the schools are a part of to collectively bargain from.
00:29:24
Speaker
And there needs to be an athlete entity that the athletes are a part of to collectively bargain from. We built the athletes entity. It's called athletes.org. But the schools need to create their own entity to be able to then negotiate the rules that all the schools will be governed by.
00:29:40
Speaker
And now whether or not there's segments of schools that do that, maybe it's conference by conference, maybe it's group of six has their own entity to collectively bargain with those players and A4 has their entity.
00:29:53
Speaker
I don't have the magic wand on that. i don't know how that will work out. But I know one thing. If nothing happens, there is a very, very, very high cost to the schools coming in the next few years. If they do nothing, and this situation we're in right now continues, Johnson versus the NCAA is still out there, and it's going to make these athletes employees.
00:30:14
Speaker
And that is an eight-figure-a-year set of costs to the schools at all levels. Minimum wage, workers comp, payroll taxes, overtime. okay and And so I think that there's some very smart leaders that see that coming and understand there's a cost of doing nothing.

Future of College Football as a Separate Entity

00:30:34
Speaker
And I think you're gonna see if if if there is nothing done and and this new entity isn't created that they're all apart, I think you'll see a break off. And I think that break off will be the new entity. I even think you could see break off for football on its own where those players are employees and they unionize and they collectively bargain and it's already protected by the National Labor Relations Act and Congress isn't needed at all.
00:30:56
Speaker
So there's a real cost of doing nothing and right now there is a way for the schools to say, you know what, let's collectively bargain the rules as one entity, one league.
00:31:07
Speaker
And if they did that, we would be able to really get around a lot of the issues we've talked about in this conversation. Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of questions, very few answers right now, but I'm like you.
00:31:19
Speaker
The cost of doing nothing is going to be way higher than trying to figure out a solution right now. Yeah, and they think 20 million a year is high.
00:31:31
Speaker
The cost of doing nothing is going to be lot. the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, I mean, what if you had to collectively bargain with an aggressive union that thinks $20 million low and they go for $50, you know, because the football players technically create, you know, more than $10 billion a year in revenue and they deserve more. I mean, it could spawn into a place that...
00:31:50
Speaker
I fear some aren't considering. So regardless, it's been fun like having a conversation with you about all this. And what I admire about you, aside from all the winning, and you know you just said it, I mean, only 10 schools have won more games than you over the last few years. It's it's amazing.

Instilling Championship Habits for Success

00:32:06
Speaker
is i i know you really care about these guys and I've really enjoyed, especially this past year, and know you guys fell short of winning the title, but you still had a great year and all your guys ended up in great places and I know you supported them in that.
00:32:21
Speaker
Yeah, without question. At the end of the day, you know, I'm in the scoreboard business. Sometimes people say, hey, you're talk guy. What do you do? And I was like, oh, I see you're a big UAB b fan. No, I tell people, I'm in the scoreboard business. What does that mean? Well, the scoreboard better make sense or I'm not going to be in this business long. So ultimately, I understand the main thing better be the main thing. But then I truly want to put my kids, meaning my players, in the best position possible to be successful short term and long term.
00:32:52
Speaker
by teaching them championship level habits. I know i believe this, Jim, and i'm I'm sure you would attest to it as well. I think habits over everything, habits over intellect, habits over ability, habits over motivation, inspiration. We're all creatures of habit. We're gonna go back to a habit. So while I have them, whether it be eight months or three years,
00:33:12
Speaker
I'm trying to instill in them championship level habits that will help them throughout the course of their life. No doubt the compound effect is real. I appreciate you man. Thanks for making time. Absolutely.
00:33:24
Speaker
AK cracks me up. I always love visiting with him, known him for a while, and he's a guy who college basketball needs to have coaching. Hopefully he's got a lot of years ahead of him and hopefully a lot of his ideas for solutions will be a part of the future of college athletics. So I really appreciate him joining us for this episode.
00:33:42
Speaker
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00:33:53
Speaker
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00:34:10
Speaker
Thank you. for tuning in or listening to this episode. We'll be back with more here at Now It's Legal very soon.