Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S2E6 - Sandy Barbour - Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale
121 Plays3 months ago
Sandy Barbour is a former athletic director who served at the Pennsylvania State University, the University of California, Berkeley and Tulane University. In 2020, Sandy was on Sports Illustrated’s "The Unrelenting" list of powerful, influential and outstanding women in sports, and has been recognized by Forbes as one of the top executives in sports. Sandy is a member of the NCAA Football Oversight Committee and represents the Big Ten Conference on the NCAA Division I Council.
Sandy joins Now It’s Legal to discuss her involvement in the NCAA Football Oversight Committee and the NCAA Division I Council, making decisions that focus on enhancing the overall student-athlete experience and promoting athletes’ personal growth and leadership development.
.
.
.
About Now It's Legal
In July 2021, NIL forever changed the trajectory of college athletics. It’s been a long time coming as the NCAA has long needed changes like NIL, the transfer portal, revenue sharing and other benefits for college athletes.
We introduce to you the Now It’s Legal podcast. Join us as we discuss the industry that holds the hearts of millions of fans who want to understand where its trajectory is heading. We are talking to those who are invested in and affected by NIL including: Former and current college athletes, presidents and head coaches, broadcasters and media personalities, investors and more. This is just the beginning of NIL and what it means for the future of college athletics.
Host Jim Cavale is a former college athlete and entrepreneur who has become an advocate for young athletes across the country. In 2017, he created the INFLCR app that allowed athletes to build their brand on social media, and in 2021, evolved into the NIL management technology for more than 100,000 athletes across 200 college athletic programs. INFLCR has since been acquired by sports tech titan, Teamworks.
In 2023, Jim founded Athletes.org which which is the players association for college athletes to negotiate the best terms for their college athletics experience. AO provides its member athletes with a free membership, empowering them with a voice, on demand support, and group licensing income in the same ways that professional league associations do for their member athletes.
Tune in to a new episode on Wednesdays this fall and join in on the conversation on Instagram with @nowitslegalpod and @jimcavale.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Now It's Legal' Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
All right, another episode on tap. Now it's legal. I'm your host, Jim Cavall. And this is where we talk about everything past, present, and future when it comes to
Guest Introduction: Sandy Barber's Role in College Athletics
00:00:19
Speaker
college sports. And today our guest has been a staple in the industry for several decades. Sandy Barber has been the athletic director at schools like Penn State and Cal. She's also been at schools like Notre Dame, Tulane, and she is somebody who has a really, really well-rounded perspective of how we got here in college athletics with all the litigation and all the issues that the industry is facing. But she also has ideas on the solutions that we need to have in place for college athletics to have a sustainable future.
00:00:55
Speaker
Sandy is a board member at athletes dot.org. So I get to work with her pretty regularly. And she has been so helpful. Just ah a lot of wisdom comes from Sandy and her perspective. And you're going to feel that in this interview. So let's go right to
Women Leaders Event and Sandy's Impact
00:01:11
Speaker
it. My interview. Next episode. Now it's legal. Sandy Barber. Sandy, first off, thanks so much for making time for us. And before we even get into some of the stuff we're going to talk about, I know you just got back from ah the women leaders event and would love to hear about it because it's such a great organization that Patti and company have put together. Want to hear how it went. Yeah, Jim, you you nailed it. It's Patti and her team have done an amazing job. It's 6,000 members now. We've broadened the brand to include
00:01:45
Speaker
women in all aspects of sport. For 40 plus years, it was women in college sports. And now now we've broadened it to ah women women in all aspects of sport, whether it be the professional level, whether it be facilities management, whether it would be agents, again, ah you you name it. And just just a ah lot of energy. And again, Patty and the team do a tremendous job um with leadership development, training, helping women advance from ah from a career standpoint, um maybe kind of a placement service, if you will. But that's that's obviously just ah just a small part of it. And this was about 13 to 1400.
00:02:28
Speaker
ah men and women. we We have male members and and and obviously men like yourself who who support us and organizations like athletes dot.org that that support women leaders and ah just a place that I always throughout my career really went to kind of fill my cup and get rejuvenated and and share stories and and challenges maybe and and it' it's always been a place that's been under an organization.
Launch of Athletes.org and Its Mission
00:02:54
Speaker
It's been very near and dear to my heart.
00:02:56
Speaker
it's awesome That's awesome. Well, I appreciate the the perspective that you've given me in getting to know you over the years as a leader that's been at many levels of college sports, including your last stop in the big chair at Penn State, um because it's given me more perspective as we've built teams at Influencer and TeamWorks and now AO with some amazing women leaders and all those organizations. So appreciate that. But you know, going into the conversation, I think where I'd like to start is last year's September 2023, we launched athletes.org to mixed reviews, right? I had a good network of folks like yourself that I worked with during my time at influencer and TeamWorks and um some really
00:03:46
Speaker
saw the vision of of why I wanted to build this this this new organization. um Some did not. And while that's evolved and changed in conversations I've had with leaders throughout college athletics, um you were somebody that called me right away. And you were like, this is interesting.
00:04:03
Speaker
And we, of course, met in Los Angeles and spent some time going through the vision for AO and you since joined the board. And I think it's important that we talk about the fact that you are on our board before we go into some of the question and answer portion.
Transition from College Athletics to New Focus
00:04:19
Speaker
But I want to start with just like, why did you give me a call? What did you see when you saw the launch of AO and why did you want to jump in and get involved?
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, first of all, Jim, very proud to to serve on your board and and ah and play a ah small role in in what you and and your team are trying to do here. you know as ah As you know, as our audience probably knows, I retired from college athletics in the in the summer of 22. And I'll be very honest. ah the name, image, and likeness, the potential of RevShare, had very little or anything to to do with that. It was it was just my my time. I wanted to spend more time with my family. I wanted to come back out to the West Coast. And I reached out to you because ah in in all the things that I continue to do, whether it's my consulting work at Huron, my work with the USOPC, we've got to solve this.
00:05:22
Speaker
and look I'll raise my hand, I was part of the feet dragging for how many ever years you you you want to ah put that label on it. ah And it was it was out of, it was it's out of fear, you know, what's what's something radically different look like. But we've come to a point where we've got to have a solution. um Otherwise, something that we've all worked so hard to to to help build and help be really impactful for student athletes um was really going to suffer. And um and I'm sure we'll we'll talk about the House settlement, but i'm I'm in favor of the House settlement, not because I think it's perfect.
00:06:07
Speaker
ah But because I think it's a step, it gets us off the dime.
Challenges in Communication with Student Athletes
00:06:11
Speaker
It gets us headed towards what can be solutions that benefit first and foremost student athletes, but institutions and the enterprise of of college sport that has meant so much to so many with student athletes at the top of that list.
00:06:27
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. And and as we met the first time and went through the vision, um the idea that that athlete voice being included in how we approach the new terms, if you'll call them that, of of college athletics was an integral part of a sustainable future, was something that that you agreed with. And and so I guess you know where I'd like to go first is if you still were in the big chair,
00:06:56
Speaker
right you're You're still at Penn State or whatever school, fill in the blank. um you know You have a dynamic on these campuses that I think a lot of fans and and bystanders don't understand being an athletic director is really different at every school. Some schools, presidents and and the board are are really hands off and and and the athletic director has maybe a little bit more power to influence decisions. Some schools, the board and and the president may be more involved.
00:07:24
Speaker
um But at all schools, there's a general counsel that is going to try to err on the side of conservatism naturally. And and so if you're still in the big chair and you got ah an organization like AO coming to you saying, listen, we're a way to organize your athletes and get all your sports represented in a conversation and negotiation around how you're going to approach the house settlement. ah What would be your reaction? How would you handle that kind of ah you know option? Well, I will tell you this, i think Jim, I think one of the biggest challenges that our athletic directors have today, and you mentioned it,
00:08:05
Speaker
you know, what whether you talk about what what level of involvement your board or your campus leadership have, but you mentioned the general counsel's office. And and look, I always felt like our general counsel, ah those those were always some of the better relationships ah that that I had on the various campuses that that I served on. ah They were my friends. They were my they were they were in it in it with me, in it with us. um But one of the challenges that athletic directors have today and And it's because of the litigation. it's It's where they're being told. This is going to sound really strange if you haven't already heard that they're being told they can't talk to their student athletes. Because their student athletes are plaintiffs.
00:08:51
Speaker
and the the athletic directors and the athletic departments and the institutions are the defendants. And typically, um um i don't I don't have a law degree, but but typically, you know plaintiffs and and defendants don't talk to each other outside of ah mediations or courtrooms or or whatever. And that puts athletic directors and departments and frankly institutions in really, really difficult position.
00:09:20
Speaker
um I have, and and look, I just want to acknowledge, you know this, you you and I have talked about this, but I don't sit in the seat anymore. So there are things that are easier for me to say and do now um than than than when I say, and I fully we acknowledge that. and And hopefully I do everything I do with with some empathy ah towards my my ah my former my former colleagues. ah But all what I want is for our student athletes
00:09:51
Speaker
to make decisions with full information. like It's like the they we're coming up on a point in the house settlement where, where um and and this is primarily former student athletes, but um ah on the on the back damages part. But opt in or opt out. Certainly not gonna tell anyone. Here's what I think you ought to do. But I want to make sure when they pull the proverbial lever to say, I'm opting in or I'm opting out, that they know that they know what that means. And I think right now this plaintiffs and and defendants can't talk to each other. um and And I know that that's not a 100% bright line, but that's the kind of um of advice as some athletic directors are getting on many institutions.
00:10:47
Speaker
ah But I would try my very, if I were still sitting in the seat, I would try my very, very best to ah get advice about, okay, what kind of subjects can we can we approach and what can't we? ah And and be getting be be having conversations. But again, I know, I am i have firsthand awareness, there are campuses where they're being told, athletic directors and athletic administration are being told, do not talk to your student athletes about this.
00:11:19
Speaker
What we've heard ah from the conference level that GCs have told the GCs at each school, hey, listen, we know you might have a relationship with Jim Cavall, but beware of of associating too much externally with him or athletes dot.org. Beware of involving your student athletes in any of the strategic planning you're doing for the house settlement. That's been leaked to us, right? We've heard that. ah But the reality is doing nothing is why we're here.
Understanding Business Dynamics in College Sports
00:11:49
Speaker
doing something is how we create a sustainable future. And the something that we have to do is exactly what you described. Student athletes need access to information. They need the ability to understand, here's how the business of college sports works at my school. Here's how my sport has funding. Here's where most of that funding comes from.
00:12:12
Speaker
Here's what I should be speaking up about that could change in our favor for my sport or for me individually. Here's some things that I probably might have unrealistic expectations on because of the sport I play or the school I play at, right? Like there's a lot of misinformation because right now the fact that's not happening from the school to the athletes that go there is a dangerous situation because athletes are still reading about the house settlement and hearing about it from the media. And it could create some really unrealistic expectations for a lot of folks. So um this doing nothing aspect that comes from the GC, and and this is not to attack the GCs, they're doing their job, but but it seems to be that that's why we're here. We've done nothing instead of doing something. Doing something, for example, in the past would have been
00:13:03
Speaker
Gee, Ed O'Bannon just beat us in this lawsuit. If we do have NIL, let's figure out exactly how we'll do it so we can have parameters and recruiting inducements from boosters doesn't end up being what n NIL is used for, right? But that never happened because there was too much risk in figuring that out. And so now we have collectives dominating NIL and we have the issues we have, right? So doing something with the house settlement seems like less of a risk than doing nothing. Do you agree?
00:13:31
Speaker
I absolutely do. And and in and in fairness to ah campuses and athletics administrators, um yes, we didn't address the NIL piece. We didn't certainly didn't address revenue sharing. We did start to address, okay, let's provide more benefits to student athletes. um and it And it's been a slow trickle and it's been concentrated um in the in the Power Five or or the Power Four. But, I mean, you you look at what institutions, and just look at it purely from an NCAA permissibility standpoint, what's permissible today, and I'm, again, not talking about NIL, what's permissible today in terms of the kinds of benefits and the kinds of assistance and things we can provide for student athletes versus 10 years ago. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing.
00:14:26
Speaker
um So let me just stop right there. That's a great point. yeah And this is an example of the information that student athletes need to be able to consume and understand across all sports. Here's what my school is doing versus maybe the the floor or the standard. And in a lot of cases at the school they attend, there's more being done for these categories of the transformation committee report. There's more being done at their school than even the standard or the the floor, but they don't know that. And so understanding that might have certain student athletes appreciating those things, whatever they are, from a benefit standpoint. But instead, it's just kind of like, hey, we'll come up with what is best for you, and we expect you to take it because it comes with these opportunities for your future, which I think is why we're here.
00:15:21
Speaker
Absolutely. and And Jim, you and I both and know that's just not where we are as a society.
00:15:30
Speaker
whether whether so So that's where we as institutions and we as athletic departments needed to have kind of come ah come along and and and taken steps towards towards student athletes ah in terms of their involvement. And I think some athletic departments have done that better than others.
00:15:51
Speaker
whether it be through SAC, whether it be through something else that maybe an athletic director ah devised, whether it be just through individual conversations. Athletic directors go into practice or traveling ah ah with with teams on the road and having conversations with groups or or individuals. Again, just like anything else, some do that better than than than others.
00:16:14
Speaker
ah And I think just as a general statement, we needed to be doing, all of us needed to be doing more of that.
Involving Athletes in Decision-Making Processes
00:16:23
Speaker
Absolutely. Okay, so um you you mentioned SAC, the NCAA does the settlement. um And of course, the schools and conferences were involved some more than others, which has been a frustration for some of the non autonomy conference schools and conferences.
00:16:41
Speaker
Understandable. Yeah, understandable. very understandable yeah um But the reality is um the student athletes, aside from a few plaintiffs who are current or former student athletes, um were not included through SAC. The NCAA did not choose to use SAC to include the student athlete voice. And and even if they did, it it it feels to us like a conflict of interest because SAC is still an organization within the NCAA and the schools. So we've seen past examples of the NCAA bringing student athletes to DC. And you can kind of tell a lot of what they say is is coordinated by the NCAA and their testimony, right? So um the idea of athletes really speaking up with their own voice seems
00:17:30
Speaker
more realistic and legitimate outside of ah the NCAA than within it. But either way, they had this organization, the SAC that's existed, wasn't included in the settlement. So really to this point, everything that's been decided, whether it's Jeffrey Kessler and Steve Berman and the plaintiffs or the NCAA and the conferences, who are the defendants, has been decided without really a ah mass sample of student athletes involved. And should it get approved, April 7th,
00:18:00
Speaker
The schools will now have the option to choose how they do it from splitting up the money per sport, splitting up the money per athlete, what the contract terms are between them and the athlete at the school level. Is that the first real opportunity for the schools to finally include their student athletes in how they decide to do things? and not only protect themselves with an agreement or a partnership, but also empower them in a way that could be a recruiting tool because they involve student athlete voice at their school.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think it's the first, but but I certainly think next is next it's the it's the next, um and it's the next most important and and impactful. and And I want to go back to to what you were talking about with Zach for a minute. I mean, the NCAA and the conferences in the school were the defendants. Where where were the plaintiffs in terms of broadening um ah discussions and input from their class ah of of plaintiffs. But um I do think that this is a really important um inflection point is probably an understatement ah in terms of, I mean, when I talked about i am admit that that that I am supportive of the house settlement
00:19:22
Speaker
because it gets us off the dime and starts to move us in the right direction. Well, I think that direction should include significant student-athlete voice. um Now, having said that, um I am also of a certain age and a certain ah number of years having been involved in in intercollegiate athletics to understand that, or not to understand, but to believe that that there is a challenge um about providing a certain extent of voice to a group of 18 to 22, 23 year olds versus negotiating with a bunch of 30 and 40 year olds. I just think that looks and feels and acts differently. But do should do I believe they should have voice and that this is a moment that we can craft that? Absolutely, I do.
00:20:17
Speaker
And so when you think about that, there is a legal reality. We'll bring the GCs back in. There's a legal reality. I told you, they're my friends. They're my friends. Me too. Me too. But obviously, there's a differing approach. and And I don't want to generalize the GCs because I've talked to GCs who are all about let's figure out how we partner with our athletes and protect ourselves. ah But there's also a camp that's the antithesis of that. um But to bring them back in. Let me say this about GCs. I think what you just described are the ones that are about risk management, balancing risk, assessing risk. And those are the great ones. Right. The partners in this. The ones that think they can eliminate risk, yeah smoking something.
00:21:09
Speaker
ah and and And secondly, those that's that's where you get into so these rips. Yep. That's a great point. so So one thing that is a reality is if the athletes have a voice, but they're not employees and they can't fully unionize, ah whatever they decide together with their school ah will not be a true collective bargaining agreement.
00:21:36
Speaker
protected by the National Labor Relations Act. Instead, it'll be a quasi-CBA, we we call it Collective Negotiating Agreement at athletes dot.org. And so instead of it being a CBA protected by the and NLRA, let's just throw a bunch of acronyms in, it'll be a CNA ah that will eventually need some protection from Congress.
00:21:58
Speaker
um but But we've talked to a lot of folks in DC, both sides of the table, that say that's something they would get behind and protect, because now we've come up with a solution inside of college athletics. They didn't have to come up with it. Congress didn't have to come up with it. But it's a solution that checks a lot of
Congressional Support and Standardizing Rules
00:22:13
Speaker
boxes. Athlete voice is involved. Athletes are now negotiating the terms of their experience. And it's something they could get behind. How do you feel about all that? Once again, thinking back to your time in the chair as this moment approaches us, where that's a possibility now, if you're an AD
00:22:29
Speaker
and ah in a school, you can do a CNA, collect a collective negotiating agreement with your athletes. Well, first of all, Jim, you know this because we I call it a negotiated solution. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah I mean, and you know, language is is important. and And obviously, we have we have we have stepped into um a huge legal morass that we need to be very careful about. um The employment piece is one that I am adamantly opposed to.
00:22:59
Speaker
and i think and And that's only because you I believe that in an employment model, 90% of our student athletes would be upside down from ah from ah from a benefits standpoint. ah and And so that's why I'm i'm opposed to to employment. But you nailed it. We need help from, we do need help from Congress, which I'll be honest,
00:23:25
Speaker
four years ago. I taught an NIL class to a bunch of alums at Penn State. And I said, this is silly that we need help from Congress. I mean, first of all, they got lots of other things, more important things, not more important to me or you, but in general, more important things.
00:23:45
Speaker
Well, ah to today we need we need a limited piece to make this all work. Everybody has to be operating under the same set of rules. ah so So I do believe we need to go there. But the the the other thing that you hit on, we need to go to them with a solution. I think prior to to to to today, we've just gone and gone, help, we need you to fix this for us.
00:24:13
Speaker
um Now, that's a pretty broad brush, but in general, I think that's what we've done. I think if we go to Congress with, okay, here's our system, here's our negotiated solution, um and we need you to nail down this piece for us, with this piece for us being the 50 states, one rule. and And I think that helps us get there, but to your previous question,
00:24:43
Speaker
um We've got to, in terms of what we do as institutions, ah we've got to include our student athletes. They've got to have voice in this. and And maybe, you know, I maybe have an idea in my head of what that looks like. Maybe there's a better there's a better answer to that. But they're they've got to have voice because otherwise, if they don't, we'll keep this litigious train going.
00:25:12
Speaker
Absolutely. And we had Senator Tuberville on a previous episode of Now It's Legal. And um you know a lot of people might say, well, a Republican senator would be against any sort of agreement that mimics a collective bargaining agreement just because the party has a reputation of being against unionization.
00:25:32
Speaker
And yet he was like, wow, this is a solution. And it makes it easier for us to get support for that. I mean, you listen to that interview, you're gonna hear that repetitively from him, that athlete voice should be involved. And of course he's a former coach as well, but we've heard that a lot in DC.
00:25:49
Speaker
I was just going to say, he gets it. He's lived it. Even though it's you know it's been a few years since he's he's been in the locker room. But but he he gets it. He understands how it works. He understands the the the thought and the mind ah of of student athletes. And and and that that's what's that's kind of the linchpin that's going to be necessary to ah to get this tidied up, if you will.
Revenue Generation in College Football
00:26:14
Speaker
So recently, you're your former coach, he's still the coach at Penn State, James Franklin, ah went on the Joel Klatt show before big noon Saturday um on Fox and did a great interview about college football and what it's like being a coach right now. And it's a crazy time for college football coaches. um And he championed
00:26:37
Speaker
the fact that athletes need a voice and we need to have a way to collectively bargain and we need to have an even playing field, as you said earlier. um But what one thing that they talked about is the opportunity for college football to grow. And they didn't get into it as much in the interview But we've heard of it a lot with Disney executives and Project Rudy or college sports tomorrow or last week's episode with Jack Swarbrick where like there is a lot more money to make in college football to ensure that the money is there to support the rest of the sports surviving this because people are worried about sports shutting down.
00:27:17
Speaker
And so I just want to ask you, like generally when you think about football separating or just football being more centralized, even with a current conference structure applied to that, but having a centralized scheduling system, more ah viewership and and media money, do you think that that's a ah big part of funding this future of college athletics? No doubt. Absolutely no doubt. In all these these, at minimum, Power Five athletic departments are are about to take on a a new 22 to 30 million ah bill if the the or expense if the House settlement ultimately gets ah gets approved. And ah you know we don't go a day without hearing an institution, a college athletic department talk about we need new new revenue streams, ah which means they just need more money. They didn't need more resources.
00:28:11
Speaker
um People really, people way smarter than than me who who who I either work with it at Huron or or that i that I talk with on a frequent basis would tell you that there's somewhere between one billion and two billion um incremental dollars in some kind of aggregation of rights in in football media. um there's I don't know what the timing is, but there's no way we're not going after that.
00:28:41
Speaker
and and And how do you do it? But I would also say I completely agree with some of the voices out there that are talking about, well, we don't need to do that with private equity. We don't need to do that with some other group here here or there. um the the Not necessarily the current structure, ah because obviously we need to be able to aggregate those rights in a way that's different than today.
00:29:08
Speaker
um We have everything we need right now. Do we need to ah change the way we make decisions? Do we maybe need to change some of the structure? I am not an advocate of football going out and and being independent and doing its own thing. it's It is part of ah an enterprise that, yes, I think they need to be governed.
00:29:33
Speaker
a little differently. I think they need to have the opportunity. I think we all need to have the opportunity to be more nimble and more move more quickly and make make decisions quicker. um But I do not support football, not ultimately being under the college athletics umbrella. And maybe I'm misunderstanding what this independence piece is. But because what football does impacts, obviously,
00:30:00
Speaker
And I'm not just talking financial, but impacts the the whole the whole enterprise. So they need to be a part of the umbrella enterprise, but they do they they are the funding mechanism for the whole thing. So they do need to be governed in a way, I think it's reasonable and justifiable, that they're governed in a different way from from the rest.
00:30:22
Speaker
basketball could probably make the same argument that they're different from the Olympic sports. So they might need to, under this same umbrella, they might need to to to have a little bit of a different a different governance governance model. um but But I do think ah we need to be different than than we are today.
00:30:44
Speaker
um From an NCAA perspective, yes, ah football presents some expenses ah to the NCAA model and none of the, none of the revenue because the revenue sits in the CFP. I don't think that's right.
NCAA Enforcement and Need for Federal Law
00:31:00
Speaker
ah So, yes, football needs to bring some revenue to to that model, but then should get some independence ah for that.
00:31:10
Speaker
You know, we talked earlier about inconsistencies in rules across states, and of course there's also a reality that there are rules that the NCAA has that they're not enforcing, right, one of the few rules on NIL is that you can't induce prospective student athletes through an NIL deal.
00:31:30
Speaker
um And I thought it was interesting in the hearing, the House settlement hearing, when that was brought up by the incident of a lay's counsel and the judge asked the question, well, you know, he said, we already have this as a rule. And, you know, it's it's already against the rules to use an eye on this way. And, you know, Judge Wilkins said, well, how are you doing enforcing that? Right. And so um How do you see governance playing out in college athletics with where things are going, even with the House settlement? um Because the NCAA seems like they're in a tough spot to really be able to enforce a lot of their rules, especially when it comes to NIO. They've always been. They don't have so subpoena power. ah you know i i The NCAA leadership in the and the NCAA staff um have always been in a tough position.
00:32:27
Speaker
ah when it comes when it comes to that. And ah somehow we we need to alter that. I mean, where they are today is even more tenuous than it's ever been because of these state laws that are coming out that are superseding and say, uh-uh, you can't, you know, in our state, NCAA, you can't touch us. Well, that's not the NCAA's fault.
00:32:53
Speaker
um And it's just our it's just our reality, which again goes back to what we talked about a few minutes ago. when that That is the place where we need Congress's help. They they they they need to ah they needed to give us the backing to do the the the one the one federal law. ah But again, you know the NCAA, and ah you know we hear it all the time, but they are they are us.
00:33:19
Speaker
whether it's our presidents or or whether it's our athletic directors and the governance structure. I mean, Charlie Baker is is there to certainly provide ideas and provide leadership and provide solutions. But if he's doing something that we don't want, the presidents need to tell him that.
00:33:39
Speaker
and the presidents did and and And the athletic directors need to advise and and and collaborate with the presidents. So it's ah it it has devolved into a really, really tough situation. um And again, I think we need to go back to to the top, go back to the base set of rules. What are they? what do you know do Do we have help from Congress ah to be able to actually enforce them so that we don't get end runs? ah and ah and And as members, what do we want?
00:34:14
Speaker
I mean, we're talking about an independent, right now with the House settlement, we're talking about an independent third party to enforce the settlement. That's right. Fascinating times.
00:34:28
Speaker
But with disruption comes a lot of problems that create opportunities for new solutions. So um that's why I love this conversation and love having you as part of of our board. Because we we talk about this kind of stuff really every every month, right? And it's continuously evolving. and And it will. I mean, this thing is, it's ah first of all, it'll never be over.
00:34:53
Speaker
we're We're talking about, you know, human human dynamics, and we're talking about a highly, highly, highly competitive environment um is is, you know, obviously one of the the basic tenets here. It'll continue to evolve. I just, I hope and I pray that we get ourselves to a point where um we're not, that the that the way we, our rules um and our our culture incentivize us to act isn't
00:35:24
Speaker
um isn't leading to things that are are hurting student athletes from an educational
Concluding Thoughts and Appreciations
00:35:35
Speaker
standpoint. And I'll point i'll point to to the to the transfer regulations. I get it.
00:35:41
Speaker
um I do think we were ah we were probably too restrictive. There was no justification for why one set of sports didn't have to sit, ah you know, a residency year and another set of sports did. ah But we're now in a situation because we completely took the top off of all the rules that there are things going on that we will see five years, 10 years,
00:36:06
Speaker
15 years down the road have been really detrimental um to student athletes experience, to their education, and then whether those impacts going to be on on them down the road. And I think we need to have the opportunity back where we started this conversation, to have those conversations with student athletes. um And if we, as the campus leadership, to feel like those things are most important to the educational efficacy, then when, as we negotiate a solution here,
00:36:35
Speaker
you know, so then we got to put a stake in the ground around those things. Absolutely. Well, I appreciate your continued support and helping athletes dot.org ah get to the point where we can negotiate that solution and with schools and get us to a place where Congress has a solution to protect. um So thanks for taking the time to have this conversation today and for all you do for athletes.org.
00:37:01
Speaker
Always a pleasure, Jim, and appreciate what you and and your team are are are trying to do. And and let's so let's keep going.
00:37:13
Speaker
Great stuff from Sandy. And listen, General Counsel folks, hope you understand that we're just trying to point out that not doing things is really how we got here. Being overly conservative is is why we're in this situation we're in today. We have a chance with risk in mind to approach this more proactively. And Sandy talked about that throughout the conversation we just had. And that's of course why we exist at athletes dot.org and many GCs we talk to are starting to see there's a way to involve our athletes. That's not so risky, but actually it's a way to avoid risk. It's a way to protect the future.
00:37:54
Speaker
um So I really enjoyed that part of our convo and really appreciate Sandy coming on board. We have so many great episodes coming up. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple Podcasts, Spotify Podcasts, and of course YouTube. And make sure you're following us on Instagram. It's at nowitslegalpod. And when you follow us, you're going to get teasers from interviews like this as they come out. So you're aware of new episodes that are being released, whether it's Spotify, Apple, or YouTube.
00:38:23
Speaker
For everybody on our team, I'm Jim Cavall. Thank you for watching and listening to another episode of Now It's Legal. More to come.