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S2E3 - Hamilton College - Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale
103 Plays4 months ago
Episode 3 of Now It's Legal takes place in Wellin Hall at Hamilton College in Clinton, NY. On Monday, September 9, 2024, Jim joined Jeremy Foley, University of Florida’s Athletic Director, and Amy Perko, CEO of Knight Commission On Intercollegiate Athletics, in a conversation focused on the uncertain future of college sports. As the model shifts from amateurism to pay-for-play, there are questions surrounding Title IX mandates and gender equity, the impact on Division III athletes and college athletics' financial sustainability.
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About Now It's Legal In July 2021, NIL forever changed the trajectory of college athletics. It’s been a long time coming as the NCAA has long needed changes like NIL, the transfer portal, revenue sharing and other benefits for college athletes.
We introduce to you the Now It’s Legal podcast. Join us as we discuss the industry that holds the hearts of millions of fans who want to understand where its trajectory is heading. We are talking to those who are invested in and affected by NIL including: Former and current college athletes, presidents and head coaches, broadcasters and media personalities, investors and more. This is just the beginning of NIL and what it means for the future of college athletics.
Host Jim Cavale is a former college athlete and entrepreneur who has become an advocate for young athletes across the country. In 2017, he created the INFLCR app that allowed athletes to build their brand on social media, and in 2021, evolved into the NIL management technology for more than 100,000 athletes across 200 college athletic programs. INFLCR has since been acquired by sports tech titan, Teamworks.
In 2023, Jim founded Athletes.org which which is the players association for college athletes to negotiate the best terms for their college athletics experience. AO provides its member athletes with a free membership, empowering them with a voice, on demand support, and group licensing income in the same ways that professional league associations do for their member athletes.
Tune in to a new episode on Wednesdays this fall and join in on the conversation on Instagram with @nowitslegalpod and @jimcavale.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:09
Speaker
I always tell you, I love that track. NCAA is the name of the song. 2 Chainz is the artist. A lot of truth in it. And a lot of truth in what's happening right now in college athletics and where we're going with college athletics. And we're going to talk about that in a second. But first off, welcome. Welcome to another episode of Now It's Legal. I'm Jim Cavall, the founder and chairman of athletes dot.org and your host for this show.
00:00:33
Speaker
And this episode is gonna be a really fun one because it's a conversation I was invited to have by Kit Morris. um Kit's a legendary executive in the college athletics world. He led college sports marketing for Nike for decades. And Kit was asked by the folks at Hamilton College to put together a really interesting mix of leaders in college athletics to talk about the future of college athletics at Hamilton College in New York where They have a series called Common Ground, where you can talk about these debatable subjects, if you will. The college athletics future is definitely a debatable
Future of College Athletics
00:01:09
Speaker
subject. And so you're going to hear the conversation we had live at Hamilton College. You're not only going to hear from Jeremy Foley, the longtime AD from the University of Florida, who is now the AD emeritus there. And Jeremy ah led this conversation between myself and Amy Perko.
00:01:25
Speaker
the Knight Commission CEO. knight The Knight Commission has been around for a while and they've done an amazing job of putting together research around what's happening in college athletics along with suggestions strategically for the NCAA and conferences. You can hear from Amy, you can hear from me and obviously mylensthroughathletes.org and our team.
00:01:42
Speaker
in our athlete community and how we're looking at this, but you're also going to hear from Jeremy. Jeremy's a guy who, ah during his time, Florida won three national championships in football, so Steve Spurrier, Urban Meyer, but also basketball, two in a row, Billy Donovan, and really, Jeremy had success with all of the sports during his time at the University of Florida. He read led a really well-rounded athletic program. And one thing that Jeremy, Amy and I all had common ground on is we want to preserve the academic excellence of the college athletics experience.
NIL's Impact and Legalities
00:02:13
Speaker
But this is a really good conversation. I saw talked earlier, I mentioned the two chains track and and there's some realities in that track about the realities happening in college athletics. Listen, it's proven that you need talent to win and you need to win to generate revenue, right? We know that in college athletics.
00:02:31
Speaker
You ask any coach, they'll tell you, I got to be able to recruit. I got to be able to get players. And for a long time, the way that you got players was through facilities, through winning, through a proven track record of getting athletes to the next level, through academic excellence. But also, let's be honest, a lot of programs went around the rules. A lot of programs we know paid players under the table.
00:02:52
Speaker
And with the advent of NIL, which many think stands for name, image, and likeness, it really stands for now it's legal, which is why this podcast has named that because it's now legal to pay talent. NIL is being used through collectives to pay talent today to go to schools. And we all know it, even though it's against the current NCAA rules to induce recruits to come to your school, it's not being regulated. It's not being governed by the NCAA. And now with the house settlement, the proposal is,
00:03:22
Speaker
we're going to pay athletes directly from the schools, not through employment or salaries, but through NIL deals between the school and the athlete. And so now it's legal to pay talent, whichever way you look at doing it. And as we look at the present and that aspect I just described, we need to look at the future and what is sustainable, what is possible for college athletics to have more structure and for athletes to have equity in the experience that they help create as players on the field court, Matt,
Guest Introductions and Contributions
00:03:50
Speaker
et cetera. So here it is, my conversation with Jeremy Foley and Amy Perko at Hamilton College in New York this past month.
00:04:01
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's so good to be with you all tonight. As Mr. President just said, I didn't go to Hobart and, you know, I'm a D3 athlete, I guess athlete, but being back on this campus, great memories being around the students today.
00:04:16
Speaker
just it's ah It's a great honor, and I know I speak for both Jim and Amy. We appreciate you inviting us. We appreciate being here tonight. So we are going to talk a little bit about the future of college athletics. I'm going to briefly introduce these two. I'm then going to set the table a little bit about some things going on in college athletics, I think will give you a better idea why we're talking about the future. And then we're going to get after it with Jim and Amy. But again, thank you for being here tonight.
00:04:41
Speaker
I'd like to first introduce Amy Perko. She's the CEO of the Knight Commission of Intercollegiate Athletics. She is a recognized leader in college um sports. I've known Amy ever since I was AD there in Florida. She's always always been a voice of ah reason in the business and obviously an advocate for every student athlete in the profession. um She is a college basketball player at Wake Forest. She's in Wake Forest's Hall of Fame.
00:05:07
Speaker
She was recognized by the NCA with a silver anniversary yeah award that's 25 years after she graduated. They only give out six a year, incredible honor. Amy was a recipient of that. and In 2015, she was a sports business journal game changer, and certainly she's worked her whole life
Challenges in Division 1 Athletics
00:05:26
Speaker
to effect change in this profession. Before I do, Jim, Amy, quickly tell these folks what the what the Knight Commission does.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah, the Knight Commission, we're funded by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation. We're an independent think tank whose purpose really is to lead transformational change that prioritizes education, health safety, and success of college athletes. And I look forward to sharing more about our views on the issues at hand.
00:05:53
Speaker
Thank you, Amy. I'd like to introduce now Jim Cavallo. He's the CEO of athletes dot.org, a highly successful entrepreneur. He's a former college baseball player, D2, and D3 player. He's built and sold multiple companies in the sports and fitness fitness industry. He founded um a sports tech app called Influencer that 220 The Vision One School subscribed to and supporting student athletes and building their social media brands. He sold it in 2023, and twenty three he started Athletes thoughtugh dot.org, which is a players association. I want to talk more about that in just a minute. He has been named by ESPN, one of the top 11 power brokers in college sports, and he was named by Sports Business Journal as top 40 under 40. So Jim, why don't you briefly tell them what Athletes dot.org does, please.
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, just like in pro sports, you have players union that represents the interests of the players with the league. College sports is desperately missing that and desperately missing a partnership between the league and its athletes. And so athletes dot.org is built to organize athletes, give them the support they need to make key decisions, but also give them a voice in a seat at the table with their schools as all these new decisions about the new frontier of college athletics are being made.
00:07:09
Speaker
Thank you, Jim. All right, just briefly, you know why are we talking about the future of college um college athletics, intercollegiate athletics? Why do we have competing interests here? Let me just give you just a quick synopsis of things that are going on in D1. Maybe repetitive for some of you, but if you don't understand what the issues are, then I'm not sure our conversation will be quite as meaningful. quick I started at University of Florida in 1976.
00:07:33
Speaker
Our athletic budget there was $7 million. dollars um When I retired in 2016, it was $120 million, and I've been retired for eight years now, and it's $181 million. um There are two athletic programs in America. Their athletic budget exceeds $220 million. The Vision One Sports.
00:07:58
Speaker
generated and spent in 2022, $95 billion. dollars um I paid Steve Spurrier in 1996, $2 million. dollars It was the first $2 million dollars salary in all of college sports, made huge net news. Right now we have football coaches making 13 million, 11 million. We have six making 10 million. NCAA basketball attorney, TV money.
00:08:28
Speaker
You all watched March Madness. That generates $1.1 billion dollars a year. The Big Ten new television contract, $1 billion. dollars The SEC just handed out to its membership $750 million. And
Revenue and Policy Changes
00:08:44
Speaker
athletes can transfer at WILT. It's called a transfer portal. You used to have to sit out here. There's no more of that. There's a new, and we had some conversation today with some of the student athletes. So obviously, this part is not unfamiliar in this room. it's called name, image, and likeness, which allows athletes to benefit from their name, image, and likeness, which I'm 100% for, but what it's turned into is a pay for play, a recruiting inducements. There's a football team in this country whose football team has been built this year with $20 million of name, image, and likeness, okay, money, all right? Quarterbacks making six or $700,000. There are athletes making seven figures right now.
00:09:27
Speaker
that's That's the current environment in college athletics. um There are lawsuits galore because athletes want their a piece of the pie. They, you know, coaches making 13 million, one billion dollar television contracts, obviously that's being generated by the athletes. So obviously that makes sense.
00:09:49
Speaker
However, it has totally changed the landscape of what I did for 40 years, AD for 25 years, and I'm not here to rail about change. I'm not the old guy in the room. is not who is not willing to change, but is therefore, while we're sitting here today, talking about a future that is difficult at best. So they describe college athletics right now, a lot of people, as the wild, wild west. It is a wild, wild west. Whether it's good or bad, you know we'll we'll discuss that in a minute. So the first question I have for Jim and Amy, and you know we'll let Amy start on this, is how did we get here? Is it only because of the money? Is it because of lack of leadership?
00:10:28
Speaker
You know, because some of these things have been anticipated earlier, and I'm a Monday morning quarterback in here, but there's a reason where we're here today. And first of all, I was part of the system. I'm not putting, I mean, I paid a coach $2 million, dollars which back then might be worth $10 million. But I'm saying we are in a system that's incredibly difficult now. So, Amy, how did we get here?
00:10:48
Speaker
Yeah, great question. um And thanks for for giving that background. As you said, you know, there's so much change going on right now, but how do we get here? A couple things I would say, you know, we work our organization has worked to push policy changes.
00:11:04
Speaker
and changes that we think are good for the collective and and for the good of the future of college sports and that will enhance college athletes' experiences. Just a quick example, um when I started with the Knight Commission, I thought it was going to be a two-year consulting job because we were pushing for an academic threshold for postseason eligibility. And our goal was to help improve graduation rates in Division
Leadership and Governance in College Sports
00:11:28
Speaker
I. Graduation rates for football and men's basketball players were very low.
00:11:33
Speaker
University presidents were embarrassed about it, and they said, we've got to change we've got to change something here to improve graduation rates, create more accountability. So we pushed a solution that teams should have to be on track to graduate at least half their players to be eligible for March Madness and Championships. What some now say, that's a pretty low bar. Again, we thought this is this is going to happen. this will We can get this done in two years. Jeremy, it took 10 years.
00:12:03
Speaker
right so policy change happened a lot slower than what we felt it should happen now since then graduation rates for division one have reached an all-time high and and people now say yeah that seems like that policy should have always been in place so the lesson there is sometimes change happens slowly and why we are here today um you know you you mentioned name image likeness and that's been one of the most You know, dynamic changes that that has has been created in terms of allowing athletes to have the compensation for their NIL. The Knight Commission, we held a national the first national public meeting ah about name image likeness in 2008.
00:12:45
Speaker
I think a lot of you were maybe in first grade. you know So it wasn't even called NIL then, but it was about these video games and and the avatars and these video games were starting to look an awful lot like the actual players. The players were not getting royalties like pro players did in Madden as an example. And we said, you know from a policy standpoint, that's really not fair.
00:13:08
Speaker
So either don't have the video games or you got to change the rules to to you know give the athletes their fair share for the use of their name image image likeness. Fast forward several months, Ed O'Bannon files a lawsuit and the NCAA at that time chose to. We're just going to litigate this because we don't want to change our policy.
00:13:31
Speaker
Fast forward it, you know, to Ed O'Bannon wins the lawsuit, and it still was an opportunity for the NCAA to change. But again, the NCAA did not want to change its policy, and then it was forced to change. And so now we're in a chaotic environment because and And what we've said all along is it's time for the university presidents and the leaders, the athletic directors, commissioners to to decide the future that's best for college athletes and best for the future of college sports. But because of a lack of action and not wanting to disrupt the status quo, now what's happening is the courts are deciding the future of college sports. Well, we hear Jim.
00:14:19
Speaker
Well I think going along with the timeline that that Amy just provided there's been a lot of clues that leaders in the industry could have been proactive and getting in front of. But the time it took for instance with the Ed O'Bannon case which to me was writing on the wall that name image and likeness was inevitable. It wasn't a matter of if but when.
00:14:38
Speaker
once Ed O'Bannon beat the NCAA because his likeness was used in a basketball video game that he and the other athletes weren't paid for. The second he won that case, that's when you got to get on offense. You got to say, OK, how do we do this in a way that's going to work with our model?
00:14:54
Speaker
Right? And when when you try to do that in college athletics, and these folks know more than than anyone, it's hard because there's so
Athlete Empowerment and Compensation
00:15:02
Speaker
many competing interests. There's only a certain amount of schools that play big time college football, big time college basketball.
00:15:10
Speaker
And they're supporting a lot of other sports at their school, let alone the fact that there's other schools outside of that that have their interests. So getting everyone to agree has been very difficult. But one thing that happened from 08 when she told that story to the present is revenues exploded.
00:15:28
Speaker
And the commercialization of media deals, going into a multi-billion dollar a year revenue stream for the schools, dramatically and exponentially grew. And so it just really was a perfect storm of, okay, we already have this court case we've lost, name, image, and likeness and compensating athletes through name, image, and likeness is inevitable. How do we structure it?
00:15:51
Speaker
And then we've got these revenues exploding. The pie is getting bigger. For some athletes, a scholarship might not still be enough. We might have to do more than that. And figuring those two things out could have stopped a lot of where we are today, where it's been forced upon college athletics. Like Amy said, the courts are dictating how we're running.
00:16:10
Speaker
our profession. You know, when I was sitting the table there and I talked about lawsuits galore, there's a lawsuit. It's called the House. It's a plaintiff's lawsuit. The House settlement. They're trying to settle the case. It was supposed to get settled last Friday and there were some snafus, but it's the most significant court case out there. And if it gets settled, because the NCAA does not want to go to court on that.
00:16:32
Speaker
You know, the NCAA owes to athletes in the past something like $2.1 billion dollars that were going to have to be paid. Everybody, NCAA schools are going to have to collectively pay. But the most significant part of that lawsuit, in my opinion, is that schools are going to have to start sharing their revenue with the student athletes.
00:16:53
Speaker
The court's not going to tell you how to do that, but the the formula that's part of the settlement is 20 to $22 million dollars is going to come out of the existing revenue pool that the University of Florida had and other schools have, and now has to pay that to the athletes, okay? So with that background, and I can tell you right now, I haven't done it for a long, long time, balancing budgets, I don't care what school you're at, it's very, very difficult, and you've got to take $20 million dollars out of your revenue stream and now give them to athletes, and they may be deserving of that. i'm not that's not That's not my point here, all right?
00:17:24
Speaker
But i want i want to tell I want to read something from the Knight Commission that I found because it's kind of how I ran the shop at Florida for 25 years. I'm quoting now. It's time to get back to first principles. Interclusion athletics exist first and foremost for the student athletes.
00:17:42
Speaker
whether male or female, majority or minority, whether they play football in front of $50,000 or field hockey in front of their friends. And that's what I always believed in. A lot of people in this country believe in. You know, the total sports program is incredibly important. All 21 sports at Florida added three women's sports, okay? So knowing now that the revenue that we're dealing with, just talking about, the thing that frustrates me, and I'm ah in a retired chair, is who's been looking out for the interest of the total program? What I would call the enterprise. Who's been looking out for it? We're trying to sell lawsuits. We owe people money. We're going to pay athletes money. That's going to have an effect on these other sports. so
00:18:31
Speaker
You know, Jim, I'll start with you. who is Maybe that's Paulie Anish on my part to say that, but who's supposed to be looking out for the total enterprise? Well, I think a lot of that has to do with the enterprise thinking about it for itself and thinking about it based on the future and not what they're used to doing. And so the reality is college athletics programs are a part of higher education institutions that have no matter how much money they've made, spent just about as much as they've made every year. They found a lot of places to spend it. You just talked about going from 7 million to 180 million in Florida from the time you were starting to the where we are today. They found a lot of other places to spend money. Guess where they spent it?
00:19:12
Speaker
on attracting talent because you can't win without talent and you can't keep making money without talent. So they spend it on facilities, they spend it on all kinds of barber chairs and the locker room and all the things you've read about is where they spend it. Well now they're used to spending on all these things. They've also had a fun new sports.
00:19:30
Speaker
and now they have to find twenty million dollars and that is going to be hard especially when another place they spend it is coach salaries not just coach salaries but coach buyouts and that's happening a lot in college football where there's big contracts where they're making eight figures a year and if they don't do well They fire them. It's a really interesting situation because it's really all about the enterprise looking out for itself, and looking at the pie every year, and looking at the slices of allocation to coaches, to staff, to facilities, and looking at that slice that's been going to the student-athlete, which is scholarships and benefits, and it went from 20% of gross revenue, then it gets down to 15% of gross revenue, then it gets down to 11% of gross revenue, and at some point you gotta say,
00:20:15
Speaker
We need to make sure we invest more in that slice of the pie or else. And so last thing I'll say is athletes while they're in college, first of all, they're doing whatever they're told to do and they don't want to rock the boat. And most athletes aren't busy or are busy and have a little amount of time to learn about all this. As you know, athletes here, it's a full-time job, really, along with school.
00:20:40
Speaker
But when they get out, they become at O'Bannon. They become Alston. They become Hubbard. They become Carter. They become Johnson House. And that's where if we educate the athletes while they're in school on how the business works at the school and let them have a say in what's decided, there's a lot more chance that you can have a partnership that can protect yourself from these lawsuits.
Advocating for Athlete Representation
00:21:02
Speaker
And that's your organization's goal? Absolutely.
00:21:06
Speaker
Absolutely. and And it's the only sustainable path for college athletics because without a partnership, they'll continue to be lawsuits and there'll be nothing to protect the schools in those lawsuits because they don't have a deal with their athletes. And we've seen it work in pro sports, but it doesn't exist in college. Would you say your organization's focus is on just the football and basketball piece of this?
00:21:31
Speaker
Absolutely not. That's why when we launched, we launched with a brand name like athletes dot.org. We said it's for all athletes, all divisions, all sports. But when it comes to starting from scratch, there's 500,000 student athletes in in this NCAA realm. And our focus is the 10,000 athletes that play.
00:21:50
Speaker
power conference, football, men's and women's basketball, because those athletes make up more than 90% of the revenue produced in all of college sports. and And so organizing those athletes first is a focus, but we're for all athletes. And what I've noticed when I've sat down at at universities and talked to athletes who represent each sport in one room, which we've done many times,
00:22:13
Speaker
I've learned that that athletes who don't play football understand that football produces a great deal of their revenue and is the reason they have scholarships and they have facilities. And if they don't know that, they're willing to learn it. And once they learn it, there's a way for all athletes to be able to find something that they feel is the best benefits package for them. But the only way they can do that is they need the types of facts that you guys do such a great job of putting out for leaders in college sports, athletes need to understand that stuff. And that's why we started this. So, who Amy, who looks out for the whole enterprise?
00:22:49
Speaker
Well, in terms of who looks out, it should be. you know the The university presidents set the tone, set the philosophy for um college sports that that exist in our universities. And in terms of you know what the Knight Commission has tried to do and with our purposes, putting the athletes at the center. And in terms of we've We've advocated for a long time that college athletes should have a greater voice at the policy table. um there There is a national student athlete advisory committee, but it's advisory, and and they're there should have been more athlete athlete votes.
00:23:27
Speaker
and in actual policy and so that's something that still should change and actually college football is probably the most underrepresented in terms of athletes voice at the at the policy table.
00:23:43
Speaker
um another, you know, change that that we've really pushed. and And something that, you know, I want to go back to a little bit of how we got here and talk about one of our solutions for where we think it should go. But I want to set the stage as well. Obviously, a lot of the things we're talking about with the revenue really only applies the sixty to 60 to those 60 to 70 power schools. And what's happening with the courts and some of the state legislatures and even the public perception
00:24:13
Speaker
is all ah really guided by what they see with those 60 to 70 schools. And so we want to make sure that there may be something very different structure that needs to happen for football. And we've actually pro proposed that. But we want to make sure that so the solution that works for big time college football is not the same solution that works for Division 3.
00:24:37
Speaker
And our fear is that what is happening, that those problems are overwhelming the entire ecosystem, and that what could happen as an outcome could harm Division III, Division II, and some of the athletic programs at Division I schools that you know, have a very different budget. But for those 60 to 70 schools, every other college sports program really relies on the institution to fund and support those opportunities and student fees to fund and support those opportunities. And with the Knight Commission, we see these, you know, these four years you have as a college athlete. We want this to be a transformational experience for college athletes. That's what it was for me as an athlete.
00:25:21
Speaker
um And not just a transactional experience in terms of how much money am I going to make from NIL this year or that year. Again, we support NIL, but again, college sports needs to be a transformational experience for young people, not just a transactional one.
00:25:39
Speaker
um But our solution in terms of college football was for there should be a separate entity to govern big revenue football. um And it needs to be funded by the college football playoff, which is separate from the NCAA.
00:25:54
Speaker
um and And then the NCAA can better govern all the other sports. One of the most misunderstood facts is that the NCAA really receives zero in revenue from the college football playoff. It receives zero in revenue from big revenue football, but yet it is absorbing the legal liabilities, the house case that's going on down the line. And that's just an alignment. it's It's a misalignment, but it's only that way because We haven't changed it. It's just built up through the system. The college football playoff started in 2015. And you look at, we've got all the data on severance pay, coaches' salaries, and that's when it really exploded, when the college football playoff began and the money has flowed disproportionately, as Jim said, to the to the coaches.
Media Influence and Governance Proposals
00:26:42
Speaker
And so that's that's led to you know a lot of where we are now. I do believe that
00:26:48
Speaker
In 2030, there will be a college football super league. um if If we continue down the path we're on now, there still will be a super league in 2030, but it will be become be because that's what the networks want and not because that's the decisions that college leaders made. Jeremy, in 2011, we hosted a public meeting And at that time, it was around the time of the first kind of big realignment when Texas A and&M went to the SEC. And the then chancellor at LSU said,
00:27:22
Speaker
I believe we're going to end up with two conferences, one named Fox and one named d ESPN. And if you just so you know, Fox is invested with the Big Ten. Fox is the Big Ten partnership. SEC is the ESPN partnership. And if you look at what's happened since then, both those conferences have grown. That's where the money is. And that's what TV wants consolidation.
00:27:47
Speaker
And our point is, if you're going to run let the networks run college sports, then, I mean, that's that's a different business. And that's where college football is right now. That's who runs college football. But let's let's return and put the athletes first and and have a better better policy for all these other sports that are frankly going to, you know, there's going to be a lot of lost opportunities with some of those other sports if we move forward with the path that's been drawn out.
00:28:17
Speaker
You know, I've heard some people say that, in fact, as a former colleague of mine was testifying in front of Congress and talking about the system we're in and we don't change it, it's going to cause us to drop sports. And that's another conversation here in a minute. But then one of the national sportswriters made a comment, it's not football's job to support all the other sports. Would you agree with that?
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think that it's football players' job to support all the other sports. And I think that the amount of revenue that football produces at those 60 to 70 schools should be shared proportionately with those players. I think that it would be very fair and equitable to do that and instead we want football to not do that so that we can pay for all the other sports when nobody else is making sacrifices. There can be sacrifices made in a lot of places
00:29:14
Speaker
That's why you have a negotiation. That's why you put together a plan that that all sides can speak into. But yeah, I don't think it's fair that football has to pay for everything in the sense of football players not getting paid so that other sports can be supported.
00:29:31
Speaker
But I do think that there's a beautiful way where football can continue to fund those athletic programs outside of football at those schools. And it's through one league. If there's anywhere where we have common ground, Amy and I, it's on that. like College football is the second most popular sport in this country, behind the NFL.
00:29:52
Speaker
And it gets outperformed by the other pro sports leagues, the NBA, MLB, $3 to one per consumer, $6 to one per consumer. And it's because it's not ran like a real business. It's starting to be ran like a business, which is why revenues have exploded. But if you get the top schools, you put them in one league with one media deal that they all share in, you give the best teams upside.
00:30:17
Speaker
And you really create a system where there's central scheduling. You have the best match-ups every weekend. There's billions more dollars per year available over time for the schools that play in that league. And they're going to be sharing that money back with their school.
00:30:32
Speaker
and their athletic department to pay for the sports at those schools, which those schools are the training grounds for our Olympic teams that just want all the gold medals they just want.
Structural Changes and Athlete Protection
00:30:43
Speaker
So there's ah there's a way this works, but you have to have a line item on that budget that compensates the athletes for those football teams that are helping produce that billions of dollars per year of revenue. And is that a how you and the Knight Commission envisioned a separate football model?
00:31:02
Speaker
Well, we we didn't map out all of them all of what needs to happen in detail after you create that model, because from our standpoint, to to begin addressing the problems that are there, you have to start with the structure. And and so our call was for you know, there has to be a different structure. This is misaligned right now and until we get the structure right, the solutions that are going to come out of this misaligned structure really aren't going to work in the long run for for all in the best way that they can.
00:31:38
Speaker
We think our proposal to have a separate entity for football will better enable leaders to tailor solutions for that sport. It's a unique sport. It's a high-injury sport. Players need to have protection. Players need to have long-term medical care protection. um there There are unique issues with that sport. And then, from a structural standpoint, then the NCAA can focus on reorganizing around its unifying sport of of basketball and and really ah addressing all of the other sports in a much better way than they have in the past. I mean, it's, as Jim said, all the other sports, we we have obviously a unique system in the world, and and our system is the reason America won the gold medals, the the count at the Olympics, seventy what is it, 76% of the medalists participated in college sports.
00:32:35
Speaker
um So again, not and not saying it solely for that, but just all of the incredible experiences ah over 500,000 athletes receive every year.
00:32:47
Speaker
We want to make sure that athletes have those experiences and opportunities moving forward and we don't want to see the opportunities being lost because we're not ready to call a duck a duck. Big revenue football is highly commercial and it needs a different structure and a different setup.
00:33:08
Speaker
And you've got to start there before you can before you can create the solutions. And again, the college football playoff just expanded $1.4 billion dollars a year. Doubles what the college football playoff did bring in so that's you know 600 700 million new money flowing into the system and that's been a major part of the problem as well is by adding by adding three games to the season and More teams to the playoff and the players were never asked Do you want to play three more games? Yeah, the NFL at a 17th game took two years to get the players to agree to it even though they get 50% of all the new money and so
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah, it has grown. It has grown because they added more games and they let more teams be in it. yeah and Many years ago, we recommended to the CFP that they add athletes on their board. yeah um And and that was that was denied. But again, that's that's where we get back to who's looking out for um you know the athletes. And so there there does have to be we We obviously have common ground on that, maybe be a different way of a setup, but there has to be more athlete voice and power at in in voting on policy. um We also have another policy that we think is is, it could have been adopted by the power conferences, but we have next week, three Division I conferences will receive what we call our care model conference grants.
00:34:34
Speaker
And CARE stands for Connecting Athletic Revenues with the Educational Model of College Sports. And three Division I conferences have adopted this model and are able to show ah transparency, number one, with the demographics of their athletes and their staff. They're able to show and and meet expectations of their financial distributions and and their financial distributions value, education,
00:35:04
Speaker
gender equity, and opportunity, and then they have to meet a certain metric as it relates to financial responsibility. And so this is a, it's it's kind of hard to, for you to grasp the big deal this is that they've signed on to this, but these conferences know it's a new day in college sports and they've got to show that they're doing things differently.
00:35:26
Speaker
and And just to give you a real tangible example, one of the policies that a couple of the conferences had to change, when you look at conference incentives, and again, you know we're we're talking about some of the the athletes in and n NIL, but at the big picture, the NCAA gives out financial incentives.
00:35:45
Speaker
two institutions, and one of the incentives they reward is for performance in the men's basketball tournament. So Division I schools receive $170 million dollars a year. It's divided up based on how the men's teams do in the tournament. And it was our position from, ah again, a principal standpoint um that college sports, one of its core principals is gender equity.
00:36:09
Speaker
And we don't we feel that gender equity needs to apply across the board. So that also means national incentives. So we said to the NCAA, if you're going to reward men's basketball success, you should also reward success in women's teams, for women's teams in the tournament. And so they are moving forward with that plan in another year. ah They recently adopted that. But for these conferences who will be care champions,
00:36:35
Speaker
They are equitably incentivizing success for their men's teams, their women's teams at an equal amount of their men's teams. And for many of those that required a policy change that, you know, when you've been doing something a certain way for 20 years, it's hard to change. But they've they've stepped forward and they're doing that. and So we're really proud of this initiative and we think it can can only grow from here.
00:37:00
Speaker
Even though this is called uncommon ground, you guys having some common ground on this subject in terms of you know what the structure needs to look like. I think that's really important. um You know, and but I'll go back and not want to put words in your mouth, nor do I want you to say something you're uncomfortable with. As I see this from 20,000 feet, because I'm not in the chair anymore, but I read and try to pay attention, and it seems like the leadership in college athletics, it's kind of whack-a-mole right now. Lawsuits, settle this, fix this, we'll do this, we'll do that. And no one's moving towards, that's kind of why I get concerned, nobody's moving towards,
00:37:38
Speaker
To keep this enterprise that we all enjoy a model you said we need to figure out a way to keep our model by doing things differently, it does not appear that that's a focus for anybody. Maybe you. I'm talking about people who can affect that change. You deal with these people. You talk to these people. Are those conversations that happen anywhere? Or are we just trying to settle lawsuits and get on to the next season and the next television contract?
00:38:04
Speaker
I just think for those who are out in front, the bigger schools, bigger conferences, um the current system, while it's chaotic, is working. uh... you know collectives are funded at those schools and they're spending the money to get athletes and win and they're hitting their budgets and they got to do the house settlement and start sharing twenty two million a year next year with their athletes they're going to do that too they can add more scholarships now with scholarship limits coming off in baseball and softball have unlimited scholarships so that the haves if you will uh... are not feeling is much pain even though it is welcome all
00:38:41
Speaker
because the current system is working and they're allowed to stay ahead of the have-nots. When I say haves and have-nots, I'm not talking about you know a Big Ten school and you know Murray State. I'm talking about um you know a Big Ten school and an ACC school. ACC and Big 12 make tens of millions of dollars less per year on their media deal per school.
Engaging Athletes in Governance
00:39:02
Speaker
than the Big Ten and the SEC. And so I think the the that aspect is one reason that's paralyzing change. I think another thing is you know a lot of leaders are just trying to get through this and just figure out what they can do to just get to their next contract hoping that by then this thing will have changed.
00:39:23
Speaker
But once again, it's going to be reliant more on the judiciary branch. And they're asking for help from the legislative branch, you know, Congress. But like, really, they are the ones that have to figure it out and make tough decisions and be leaders. And I'll tell you this.
00:39:40
Speaker
I talked to a lot of my former colleagues who I used to serve with my software company, Influencer and TeamWorks. I still talk to a lot of those ADs around the country because what we're doing at athletes dot.org plays into what they need to do to figure out how they're going to approach all this. And a lot of them are trying to think forward.
00:39:58
Speaker
You know, but to their defense, they have a board of trustees. They have a president that they need to get up to speed on all this change. And that's why it takes so long. You talked about 2008 is when all that started to get changed to happen, because there's a lot of channels to work through and steps to get by to make it happen.
00:40:16
Speaker
Is there anybody saying to you on, you know, position of authority, ADs, commissioners, NCAA office that, you know, hey, Amy, your your your idea of having a separate football league is probably where will we need to go. Is anybody having those conversations at all? Well, i heard we heard we heard great support from it. Actually, football coaches, if you polled football coaches, they're in support of that because they think it would help unify, bring a unifying message to get things done that they need to help their sport. you know Right now, if you say, who do i who do I call who's in charge of college college football, you have to call you know but four different commissioners, a couple of TV executives. I mean, that's who's in charge of college football.
00:41:02
Speaker
um So, you know, coaches want it. Some ADs, yes, want it. Some were hopeful that that might come out of the house settlement. Maybe that's, you know, if the house settlement totally goes off the rails, maybe it's an opportunity to try to design, you know, a different structural change moving forward. But, um you know, that's, yes, people have said that, but not,
00:41:27
Speaker
not the ones who can get it done because again a lot of the changes as it relates to football has to be agreed upon by the commissioners um and the commissioners are doing a great job with what their job is which is to create more revenue that's their job and so again it's it's a function of um you know, not looking out for the collective good of the whole because their job at the SEC is to bring in more money than the Big Ten and Big Ten to compete in a way, you know, so it's a very competitive obviously environment with no one centrally trying to coordinate for the good of the whole. And obviously Charlie Baker at the NCAA, he's trying to do that, but again the NCAA has limited authority over football.
00:42:15
Speaker
And so I think that's why there's been a vacuum of of leadership to really plot out what's in the best interest of the sport of football and how it impacts the whole. um So you know we're hopeful that that we can still move forward with that. that really bold change for all of college sports. But in the meantime, we have had leaders come to us and and leaders who are actually stepping out there, and they're they're ones outside the power conferences, but Division I ADs who know this is there's a different future for college sports. We are in a different moment. And so they are looking at different ways to construct a model where these opportunities for young women and young men
00:43:00
Speaker
to really develop their human potential through sports where those opportunities can continue in a really positive way, but in a different model. And there's like there's a couple of keys to that. They still want to compete for Division I championships, but um they understand they'll have to change some of the ways in which it operates, giving athletes more of a policy um involvement and a very meaningful policy involvement on campus at conferences and also as it relates to control um to educating coaches that there are limits to what you can control in an athlete's life and we've we've you know division three I think is is a much healthier environment in that respect because you still have
00:43:48
Speaker
um You know, a lot of off-season, you don't have the summer expectations of the Division I program, but, you know, there's so much control now that that coaches put on athletes that, frankly, is is potentially a trigger for employment. And so that's what this group is working on, a model that addresses kind some of those triggers of employment, and how can we change this?
00:44:13
Speaker
and and and make sure that athletes see the academic outcomes, the experience outcomes, the development outcomes that come from participation so that athletics participation is not seen as um having a negative impact on your academic experience but is part of that academic and educational experience because that was what it was always set up to be.
00:44:39
Speaker
and can i Can I just, on the back of that, she's she's right. like If you go to the first two pages of the NCAA's World Book, you read about all these principles that have to do with academics, and all those things are great. But you talk about calling a duck a duck, right? The Pac-12 was destroyed.
00:44:58
Speaker
so that several schools could make more money per year in media revenue in the Big Ten, right? And it's all about academics, yet Oregon is gonna be playing Rutgers on a Wednesday night in women's volleyball, and I can name 10 other examples just like that. And it's gonna be really hard for those athletes to be able to compete and be up to par athletically, but also academically manage their schoolwork. And Cal,
00:45:28
Speaker
Cal is in the Atlantic Coast Conference. They're going to play a 24,000 mile travel schedule this year. I mean, just think about that. That's a prestigious academic institution. So you talk about calling a duck a duck. I mean, that's the reality here is we're saying one thing, and there's a lot of those examples in college sports, NIL being used as pay for play as another example we haven't gotten too much into, but it it doesn't, it's it's not congruent. It's not congruent with the mission, with the principles of what this is supposed to be about. This is supposed to be a stage setting experience for the rest of your life.
00:46:05
Speaker
But and to that point, that realignment happened and in the demise of the Pac-12 happened because of the football footprint. Right, and they got dragged along. So that to our point, if you had a different structure for football, you could have more alignments that make sense in in the other sports that's better for the athlete experience in the long run. And the longer you wait, the more debris there's going to be. Because with this settlement coming next summer,
00:46:30
Speaker
Half the power conference schools will have no problem affording $22 million a year. they'll have They'll internally, it'll be hard. But they'll they'll make it happen, right? But then the next half of the power conference schools might even borrow money to be able to afford paying players. And you know what else they're going to do? They're going to cut some costs. And that's where we you're going to see a school cut some sports. And that's where you see another school cut some scholarships. And so the beginnings of more debris where you drag along other sports and other athletes that have nothing to do with football to be able to keep competing in football will happen. And that's why football separating is the end of this. It's going to happen. It's just a matter of one.
00:47:12
Speaker
First of all, we're going to talk about one more thing and then we're going to get into question and answer. If you have a question, you need mics in front here, right? But i Jim, he and I may not, we may have on ground common ground on this. I don't think it's just totally easy for the some schools to take $22 million dollars and make it work, right? Maybe on the front end, maybe the universities chip in, you know, that is going to be a whack-a-mole also. And who's going to pay a price there? Football and basketball is not. And that's why we are here discussing about the future of college athletics, because it could trickle all the way down. It could, you know, not to be chicken little, it could trickle down to you folks if the NCAA decides not to put money
00:47:53
Speaker
in the division three championships, which would be the biggest travesty. So that's why I'm harping on somebody needs to start paying attention to what Jim and Amy are saying. We need, we can't wait 10 years to figure this out. 2030, that's six years. That would probably be as quick as it could happen, right? But something has to change or the enterprise, I like to call it, is going to pay the price and not football and basketball players. And I'm not saying they should. Jim's right.
00:48:19
Speaker
they shouldn't They shouldn't bear the burden of ah paying for everybody else. But universities need to figure that out. There's nothing more special than, as you all know, because you all represent a broad-based program, than college athletics. And if we continue to play whack-a-mole, and we continue just to get to our next contract, to get to our next TV contract, you know, some student athletes in this country are going to pay a big price, in my opinion. And I think generically it could be part of that as well. Do you know what I mean?
00:48:48
Speaker
Well Title IX is a federal law and so that that's a big question with the proposed House settlement if um you know if they start sharing revenue with the athletes you know I've heard some AD say well most of that's going to go to football and men's basketball Well, wait a second, how does Title IX apply here? And so that that's a major policy question that is yet to be answered. And we think Title IX applies in a lot of ways that it's it's currently not being addressed even if with NIL when institutions are involved with NIL. And so Title IX is one of the
00:49:27
Speaker
Best you know laws that ever came to be it's the reason I'm sitting here And I'm looking out and I see you know a lot of female athletes I think in this audience and the opportunities that have been created um And so again, there's a lot of revenue being generated, but this is also revenue at universities tax exempt organizations that by law Need to comply with Title IX I mean, I think that's absolutely right. And I think it's going to be interesting with Title IX, not just on revenue sharing, but on scholarships with the limits being you know broken down. And now you can really add scholarships and in sports as you wish. I think it's going to be really interesting to see how the schools approach it all. But I also, I think it's interesting how they're doing the back pay for the settlement.
00:50:24
Speaker
And you know more and more of this data is going to be released, I think, once the class notices get sent to athletes going back to 2016, which will allow them to find out what they're going to make from the settlement. But athletes from 2016 to the present will be getting paid in all different sports in Division I. But 90% of that money is going to go to football and men's basketball athletes, because commercially, that's what their share is of the $2.8 billion.
00:50:51
Speaker
So like understanding that formula for the schools. so And then for the schools, if if they want to go with the same formula, what's interesting is you know we're not calling these payments pay for play. These are NIL deals between the school and the athlete on paper. That's because the schools don't want the athletes to be employees, and they don't want to pay them salaries. And and there's that's a whole other.
00:51:17
Speaker
common ground next conversation. But the the point is is, and that's another duck, call a duck a duck thing, because it's clearly, you know, this is pay for play. I mean, the judge in the House settlement hearing last week, that was the biggest thing she challenged them on. um And so where I'm going with this is,
00:51:35
Speaker
There's a lot of things that this football separation would help, and that would just be another one, the Title IX issue. Because if you're going to compensate football players more because they produce more revenue, doing it inside of the school is going to be a lot harder and still be able to comply with Title IX than it would be if they were part of a separate league.
Q&A Session and Audience Participation
00:51:58
Speaker
We're supposed to start asking questions at the 45-minute mark. We're there. Questions for us?
00:52:06
Speaker
It has to be able to break the ice. it's always the Once the first one goes, there's a line. Yeah. The microphone's up front.
00:52:17
Speaker
sorry were you gonna go um So I guess it's pretty understood that the NIO is pay to play. I think that's kind of something that a lot of us can agree on. Um, something that I remember was Leonard for net, not, he was kind of the one that sparked it in my mind and choosing to withhold from paying, playing in the college football playoff for his future in the NFL bowl game. Yeah, the bowl game. Yeah. So how does the and NCA or how do you guys see that playing out with if schools are paying players to play, but they're not fulfilling their expected games in the and NCA?
00:52:51
Speaker
What does that look like going forward with contracts and stuff? Yeah, so so here's the thing. Whether it's bowl opt-outs, which are becoming an issue. We saw it Florida State and Georgia this past year, right? Whether it's transferring every year and, you know, basically athletes leaving each year for a new school. Whether it's coaches tampering and stealing players. We've seen coaches, seen squirrel cam videos of opposing coaches going up to players after the game when they're shaking hands, you know, talking to them and then you see that player transfer.
00:53:20
Speaker
four months later to that school. All those things can be regulated through a collective agreement between the athletes in the school on, okay, we'll sign contracts to make X amount of money and we'll do a two-year deal. And so now,
00:53:35
Speaker
I can't transfer until after two years, but in exchange, that deal needs to be something the athlete feels is fair, not just an amount, but maybe how much of it's guaranteed. Okay, we won't opt out of bowl games, or if we do, we won't get a game check for that game, right? So there's ways to solve a lot of the things that older school folks complain about with college sports and how it is today, but it comes from having that collective agreement.
00:54:02
Speaker
think
00:54:09
Speaker
He broke the ice.
00:54:17
Speaker
guys So I'm here in a room full of successful students. And I can't help but put myself in the shoes of those D1 athletes. I know I'm just a D3 athlete. But if you gave me seven figures a year,
00:54:39
Speaker
You know, that Friday class at 9 a.m., I might be willing to not go to it. And so, because, you know, I wouldn't be as concerned for my future perhaps in terms of like financially supporting myself with a good job post grad. Do you think, um you know, giving giving that fair share to the athletes could have perhaps some bad consequences in that sense? Do you get what I'm saying? Absolutely. What are your thoughts on that? I would just say that the eligibility rules still apply. But that is a big question moving forward in part because of
00:55:25
Speaker
um Academic eligibility rules that were put in place as a result of the original Knight Commission work that Kit worked on, athletes have to be show that they're making progress toward a degree. And so there's certain, you know, benchmarks you have to meet. So those are not being challenged.
00:55:44
Speaker
because that is part, being a student, is part of college sports. And so so again, and Jeff Kessler, who's the one who brought all these different lawsuits, he has said, we're not going to challenge the academic eligibility requirements because that's That's not an antitrust violation. That's, you know, that's legal because that's part of being a college sport. That's part of part of being a so student. and And that's what, you know, again, our work is to really, college sports should be more than just the name of the college on the jersey, right? It should be yeah what that experience is for the students participating in the sport. and you Thank you. Thank you.
00:56:35
Speaker
oh You guys want like athletes to be involved in the decision making but there's little to no continuity in the player bases as opposed to like the NBA where the heads of the players associations have been there for 10 to 15 years and they they know the deal. So how would you manage their inability to see like a long term full picture and have the best interest for athletes for years to come?
00:56:57
Speaker
Well, the NFL, the average lifespan of a player is 2.7 years, which is less than the four years of eligibility that college athletes have. So it's proven that it can work. You have to have a good system for incoming athletes to be able to know that this is part of their college experience, being a part of this association, learning the business that they're now entering. And every team will have a rep.
00:57:21
Speaker
And that one player on the team, their job is to understand this really well so that they can involve their teammates who some may be very interested in, some may not. My business partner on this, Brandon Copeland, just retired from a 10-year NFL career. um And you know last summer when we retired, he was a player rep.
00:57:40
Speaker
There's 32 player reps in the NFL, one for each of the 32 teams. He was a player rep his last few seasons. And he said, you know, really us 32 players, one from each team, really represent what all 1800 are going to end up having happen. And a lot of those other 1800 don't really participate much in it.
00:58:00
Speaker
You know, so the voice happens through the player reps in the NFL and the NBA and most pro leagues. That's how it's set up. But giving each team a leader that can vote on these key issues with their school is something that can definitely be done. Even with a four year average term, it's done in the NFL and it's 2.7 years average term.
00:58:20
Speaker
I want to, that's, you know, of course, ah Jim's model for athletes dot.org. The Knight Commission, we recommended years ago now that that the NCAA change its governance policy at the national level. And that, and and we drew it from actually the USOC, the National Governing Board for for our Olympic and Paralympic They require a third of their board has to be Olympians that have competed within the past 10 years. So it doesn't have to be a current athlete, but someone who's very fresh and coming out of that experience. And so we replicated that and what we had recommended to the NCAA to change its governance, to have you know more athletes within that 10-year experience, um to have you know seats and votes at the table.
00:59:08
Speaker
um And you know again, unfortunately, they've gotten more votes, but not enough in our view. But that's my answer to your question, to have you know ah more representatives for athletes. And again, you know the seats at the table, there's just been too much self-interest the way the NCAA is governed. And so if it would open it up, have more athletes, current former athletes, and also there should be a mandatory seat Voting at the table divisions one two and three for someone who is designated and an expert on health and safety issues And and that's another recommendation again past time for that to happen But you know that sounds very simple and so it's really you know Disappointing that it hasn't happened in the face of you know all the litigation that's coming about and those were easy changes that presidents could do tomorrow
01:00:00
Speaker
ah you both
01:00:08
Speaker
Good evening. First and foremost, I'd like to say that I am a swimmer here at Hamilton. And recent events, specifically the House lawsuit, has led to the NCAA proposing roster decreases across D1 NCAA swimming, both for the men's and women's team. And as of right now, athletes are getting cut, recruits aren't getting recruited, and MEGA conferences are causing conference meets to become almost as competitive as the Olympic trials.
01:00:39
Speaker
Going the extra mile to maximize profits in this business model that mainly fits basketball or football schedule, where you know every game, every week counts, doesn't really fit with a lot of sports, specifically in swimming. like Dual meets are basically just training blocks, and now we have to go like the extra mile and make them like more profitable, have higher performance, which gets in the way of ah like optimal training.
01:01:04
Speaker
and so I just don't know how it's really helping all sports when I feel like it is actively hurting our sport. Why do we have to go the extra mile to go out of our way to not do optimal training to fit this business model that does not fit our sport? Well said.
01:01:25
Speaker
sure um Yeah, I totally totally agree with what you said, and and the the roster limits, that's a whole nother, you know, complicated detail of of the House settlement, but the young man made the point that, you know, again, our broader point is there will be lost opportunities because of the solution we are, that is being formulated because of commercial, you know, the commercial business of big time football.
01:01:52
Speaker
And so, um we again, we just think let's listen do something for the collective good. This is about opportunities in all sports and it would be much cleaner to separate that sport and and protect the opportunities with all the sports that mean so much to you and and young women and men just, you know, that that compete in that sport and others that are having, you know, roster changes at Division I just to make the numbers work for what they're doing with football. Yeah, I would just add that it's it's ah it's a reality that I mentioned earlier that a lot of things are being unraveled.
01:02:35
Speaker
while we wait to fix the problem we all know we need to fix. And if if football was separate, um not only would there be a bigger pie of money because it would make more money on its own, but a lot of these other things could be rethought and done in a way where schedules are more regional.
01:02:57
Speaker
You know, rhythms of play make more sense for each of those sports. I could keep going, but ultimately, so all these sports aren't being dragged along with football. And that's that's where it will end up. But the question is, how long will that take and how much will be unraveled once we get there? And like Jim and Amy said earlier, the basic issue there is that the courts are telling us how to run our business. That's a part of a settlement.
01:03:27
Speaker
is roster limits, scholarship, you know expansion. it's The professionals aren't running our profession. Courts are running our profession right now. And the courts are being pushed to do that by former athletes who, if they were just given a voice while they were there and included, might not have gone to those lengths. And that's kind of the full circle aspect of this. Thank you. Thank you.
01:04:00
Speaker
ah I just wanted to start off, thank you so much for a great discussion so far. So my question doesn't relate as much to n NIL money. I think a lot of us D3 athletes can agree that we don't really get much access to that. So I was kind of more focused on the transfer portal.
01:04:19
Speaker
So with the transport portal rules now changing, you have a lot of athletes changing schools or given um incentive to change schools, like the Colorado quarterback, Colorado State quarterback offered, I think it was 300 grand or 600 grand, something like that to transfer schools. um And then you also have Dabo Sweeney, who's not taking transfers. But on the D3 level, um you have athletes who, you know,
01:04:46
Speaker
Maybe their dream school is to play soccer at a school like Hamilton. And they play goalie. But sadly, a junior at another school is now transferring and plays goalie. And now their dreams are kind of crushed. So I was wondering, what are your takes on the transfer portal? And are there any policies that might be in the works to change those kind of rules regarding to that?
01:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for the question. I'll jump in first if that's OK. Your first example was, I think, one in which you used the example of a quarterback being offered over $300,000 to transfer. and And we all know that is going on. That activity is actually a violation of the NCAA rule, which prohibits NIAL from being used as recruiting inducements.
01:05:37
Speaker
But that those rules were suspended because the NCAA, again, is being sued in terms of trying to enforce its NIL rules. So that particular example, I wanted to highlight that because it's a great example because where we are today, college sports has less regulation than pro sports around endorsement in NIL.
01:06:01
Speaker
pro sports have Pro sports teams have salary caps and team owners cannot be involved in endorsement deals for the pro players. So we're in this crazy moment in time when college sports was always over regulated and now at the highest levels it has less regulation than than pro sports. um the The transfer portal though, I think you know in a big picture,
01:06:28
Speaker
the The changing the transfer rules was the right thing to do because you want to from a principal standpoint again with our work we always look at what's the principal in play here you want to be fair to athletes across the board and treat athletes like every other student and not penalize an athlete in football who wants to transfer and and you know, allow that immediate eligibility since there were three sports that that when you transferred you had to sit out a year. um And so it was to treat athletes fairly across the board and treat them like other students. So, you know, the the where it has gotten chaotic is because that transfer rule changed at the same time NIL started and there's been no, you know, and no ability to enforce the the recruiting inducements part of it.
01:07:22
Speaker
um So, I think, you know, if if the NCAA can find a way to to, you know, not allow the recruiting inducements for transfers that, you know, so that schools actually are are abiding by the rules in play, I think that will help. I think there are some changes with regard to, um you know, windows of time in terms of the transfer portal shortening those windows when that can that can be open.
01:07:52
Speaker
But again, the academic rules are still in play. If the student transfers, you still have to meet those progress toward degree requirements. And so those haven't gone away, and there have been cases where athletes have not transferred to a certain school because they weren't going to meet those those progress toward degree requirements. Yeah, I mean, the the transfer portal happened at and a time where NIL happened, and it was like the perfect storm.
01:08:22
Speaker
where um you already knew that when Pandora's box was opened with NIL, boosters were going to get involved somehow. Nobody could foresee the word collective, meaning a shell company that donors use to clean money so they can pay players to go there. like Nobody saw that. But you kind of knew something along those lines was going to happen. And then you couple it with the DOJ saying you can't you can't treat non-employees with non-competes.
01:08:51
Speaker
No transfer rules at the same time. It just created this this explosion and there's a lot of there's a lot of good examples of of the transfer portal like I used earlier today adult and connect you know the lottery pick with the Lakers like starts off.
01:09:07
Speaker
playing basketball, I believe Juco, and then small d1, and then ends up at Tennessee, and and here he is. And there's other stories like that. And Jay Bilas said to me on my podcast, he said, why should Connect be, if he was a one-star or a two-star at high school, well, maybe he gets better. Why does he always have to be at the same school the whole time? He should be able to transfer up. And he did. And there's other examples like that.
01:09:29
Speaker
But on the other side, you know, Transfer Portal is eliminating a story that we've we've seen or some of you may have lived out where a good player goes to a school and it doesn't work out the first year but they stay and they work it out and they persevere and they go through a system with their coach where they earn some playing time in year two and then year three they start and then year four They're a captain and then they're at the team banquet at the end of the year and they're crying, telling the story about how their mom and and and their coach told them to stay and they worked it out. and That story's gone. But once again, the commitment to the team, the commitment to that kind of story
01:10:10
Speaker
can be put back together with a structured deal that the athletes agreed to, with multi-year terms, with regulation around how recruiting inducements are used to tamper and and steal players. But you can't can't regulate any of that without without that kind of partnership between the athletes and the schools. What you should look at it like is free agency and pro sports. you know if there's If there's no rules, just imagine what would happen.
01:10:37
Speaker
But in free agency, the the team can't use recruiting inducement to the free agent. Because there's a collective bargaining agreement. In the WNBA, they have a collective bargaining agreement. And they shut down a deal between the city of Las Vegas and each of the players on the Las Vegas Aces. 100 grand each, which is more than their average salary per player to play in the WNBA. And they shut it down. Because that would give the Las Vegas Aces an unfair advantage, right?
Prize Money and Amateurism Debate
01:11:05
Speaker
that's That's the only way you stop collectives in college sports. But you'd have to have that kind of that kind of agreement. And I think you know last week when the the hearing took place for the House settlement, the reason that it did not get preliminarily approved like most thought it would is she wanted the NCAA lawyers and the lawyers for the athletes to take a few weeks and come back with better language around NIL limitations for athletes on top of revenue sharing.
01:11:33
Speaker
which basically means that collectives are going to stay around, even when schools are able to share revenue with the athletes. And so it's pretty tough to regulate without a collective agreement between the athletes and the schools. We've got time for one more question.
01:11:54
Speaker
Good evening. I just wanted to quickly ask what your thoughts are on players receiving official prize pool earnings under non-NCAA competitions such as recently a sorry a friend of mine went to the US Open and was paid six figures in official earnings and he was not able to receive that due to him going to a college.
01:12:20
Speaker
I was wondering if you believe he should or should not be paid those earnings and why. You know that's a new court case. So that's another one that just got started. And and I would predict that they'll win, as most have against the NCAA this century. And it's because it's not just that they would not be able to receive that prize while also playing college sports, especially when We just talked about what's happening with with other athletes playing sports and being able to be paid by collectives and other NIL brand deals. So i would I would say I agree with them being able to keep the money.
01:12:59
Speaker
I think it goes back to the you know we're amateurism word is is really no longer but amateurism is whatever the organization defines it to be and for many years and and that's why this court case is an athlete cannot accept prize money and retain their their eligibility unless it's prize money under the Olympic gold plan there there's a couple of exceptions and so I think as this system has evolved and you know that you can win win prize money at an olympic but not at the US Open it's really kind of inconsistent so I think I agree that that there will probably see some type of
01:13:46
Speaker
change in that rule as it pertains to prize money. And again, it's we're we're in a new era of just really re-examining what's fair and what's you know what's really necessary for college sports to be college sports and and played by students. So, yeah, thanks for the question. Thank you.
01:14:12
Speaker
I'm um um'm a moderator. I have a little flexibility here. Do we have one more? Someone's been waiting? We have more.
Funding Models and Revenue Sharing
01:14:23
Speaker
So there's been a lot of talk of like separation of college football from the other sports. But obviously, college football is the revenue stream for all of these other Division I sports, especially you know women's sports. So without college football, who should be funding these sports? Do you think that it'll end up turning into like these big Division I schools without football? They turn more into like Division III programs? Or do you think that they should pull funding from other places in order to fund these sports?
01:14:53
Speaker
well the Well, I'd say that in terms of um you know the funding right now, um there are over 200 universities in Division I that don't compete in big revenue football. um And the majority, more than 60% of their funding comes from institutional funding and student fees to provide the opportunities.
01:15:19
Speaker
100% of the funding you know in Division III and Division II are like that in terms of the institution providing the funding for these opportunities. So you know I think what we're saying with with the big revenue football, those 60 to 70 programs, again, they're still going to be playing big revenue football under the university's name.
01:15:40
Speaker
so it's it's not gonna be, they're not gonna lose total funding you know for their other sports programs from separating football. It'll just be a different structure than it is now. Yeah, I mean, if you think about it from a standpoint of this being similar to the NFL, the NFL teams are owned by owners and they do their best to make the team as profitable as possible so they can, them and all their shareholders can can make money. Right? Well, this would be different in that the school would be trying to run football, make as much money as they can, make as much profits as they can to put back into the athletic program each year for the other sports. But their costs would include compensating athletes in that model.
01:16:27
Speaker
it still would allow them to be profitable enough to give back to these other sports and support athletics. For the the licensing of using the stadium, the the marks of the school, like all of those things would justify that rep share revenue share between the football program separate from the school with the athletic program. Thank you.
01:16:48
Speaker
All right, we are... You know, I would say this. You were in softball? Yeah. Well, the Division I Women's Softball Championship actually makes revenue. I mean, it's a very popular sport. So there are other sports programs that are generating revenue for the athletics program. Well, we're coming here. Thank you.
01:17:16
Speaker
We're coming down. This is the home stretch here. And first of all, thank you again for all being here tonight. Thank you for those questions. They were incredible. Thank you, Hamilton College, for you know having me, Jim, and Amy. Quickly, before we end here, Amy, do you have a final comment?
01:17:35
Speaker
I think you know if if it didn't come across, I've been saying we've been experiencing the dog years of college sports. For those of you who don't know, you know a dog ages seven years for every human year, and we've experienced about 14 years worth of changes of policy in the past two years. But again, the most important thing from our standpoint is for the way forward, you know, for for presidents, commissioners, athletic directors to really put the athlete experience at the forefront of the decisions that are going to be made. And, you know, the young man speaking from swimming, I think, you know, provided a great example. You know, let's not lose opportunities for some sports because we can't figure out the solution for, you know, the most successful sport.
01:18:23
Speaker
College athletes that are affected by what we talked about tonight, whether it's the swimming example or the football player or in between, deserve to be informed at a high degree on all that's going on in the business that they play a part in.
Conclusion and Future Outlook
01:18:37
Speaker
And is they're informed, they deserve to have a voice and a seat at the table to really be able to help their school create an equitable plan for all the athletes. um And so you know that's To me, one of the two inevitable parts of the future of college sports because having an agreement with your athletes and partnering with them is how you protect yourself in court from more lawsuits. But it's also going to be a recruiting advantage for the schools that choose to do it. And it's going to give their athletes a chance to understand the business they're a part of in an earlier age. so
01:19:09
Speaker
I'm excited about that. I think the House settlement really kicks it off if it gets approved because revenue sharing starts 10 months from now. you know and that's that's ah That's a new era for college sports. It's not the last era. There's still more of that has to happen, but it will be a big ah big transformational period.
01:19:28
Speaker
Thank you, Jim. And Amy, before we leave, I just wanted to share, you know, I want to read a quote here that my friend Kip Morris gave to me. And um it's written by, it's it's about, it's from a graduation speech at Williams College that was given by A. Bartlett Giamatti, who used to be the commissioner of baseball back in 1997. And his whole speech, I'm not going to read it, but it talks about why do we care.
01:19:48
Speaker
And obviously, you folks care. That's why you're here tonight. Obviously, Amy and Jim, this is their life. I cared for 40 years about college athletics. you know it's that's That's what I did, and that's what we do. And obviously, there's a lot of caring in this room. But his comment was, why do we care? We care because we truly believe athletics plays a valuable role in an individual's education.
01:20:12
Speaker
Athletics can be a liberal pursuit, an activity pursued in and of itself for the sheer joy of stretching the spears, perhaps nothing else can. There are values, and we hear so much about values in education and how they are missing, the individual learns of cooperation, fairness, dedication, discipline, as well as listens about lessons about limitation and how to live with failure that are valuable and necessary to learn for life. You know, that's the value of college athletics. That is why we care, and with people like this, you know, Amy and Jim and others leading the charge, you know, the future has challenges, but I've been around college athletics long enough to know that, and I did it for a long time, whatever the challenge was, somehow, some way, we figured out, and I'm confident we will hear. So thank you so much for being with us tonight, and again, Hamilton, thank you for having me.
01:21:05
Speaker
Cannot thank Hamilton College, Kit Morris. ah There's so many people. Katie at Hamilton College, you were unbelievable at hosting us. It's just a really great experience to be back home for me, upstate New York, not far from Syracuse where I grew up with some really, really impactful leaders who've accomplished so much.
01:21:23
Speaker
over the past decades, whether it's Amy, Jeremy, Kit, who brought us in. Just want to thank everyone for the opportunity to be a part of that experience and for the ability to share our conversation, which was live with students in the audience. You heard students ask great questions. A shout out and props to the students who had the guts to get up and ask those questions.
01:21:43
Speaker
But ultimately, that's what we want to bring you through this podcast. Real conversations, real facts, real perspectives from all the different stakeholders in this college athletics industry and even outside. you know Some of the next couple episodes are big name athletes, football, basketball, that played college sports at a really high level and went on to have long time pro careers and are now really fighting for the college athletes to be able to really get equity in their experience um and in the the revenue they help create for their college athletics department in their school. So um those conversations coming soon. Thanks for listening or watching this one. ah Make sure you're subscribed on Apple podcasts or Spotify podcasts.
01:22:24
Speaker
Also, YouTube, those are all three places where you can subscribe to watch or listen every time a new episode comes out. You also can find out about new episodes, watch teasers and sound bites from episodes that are about to drop through our Instagram account at Now It's Legal Pod. So all those links are available in the podcast. Make sure you subscribe and follow us. And for everybody here at athletes dot.org, I'm Jim Cavall. Thank you so much for watching or listening to this past episode of Now It's Legal.