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Josh Paster - Now It's Legal with Jim Cavale S3E3
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Josh Pastner is currently the head coach of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas men’s basketball team. He played on the 1997 National Championship team at the University of Arizona before becoming their assistant coach from 2002-2008. During the 2008-2009 season, Josh was an assistant coach and recruiting coordinator at the University of Memphis before taking the role of head coach of the men’s basketball team until 2016. He is the second winningest head coach for the first seven seasons in the history of Tigers basketball. Josh was the head coach of Georgia Tech from 2016-2023.
Josh joins Now It’s Legal to discuss his involvement with the transfer portal at UNLV, adapting to and embracing the ever-changing landscape of college basketball.
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About Now It's Legal
In July 2021, NIL forever changed the trajectory of college athletics. It’s been a long time coming as the NCAA has long needed changes like NIL, the transfer portal, revenue sharing and other benefits for college athletes. We introduce to you the Now It’s Legal podcast. Join us as we discuss the industry that holds the hearts of millions of fans who want to understand where its trajectory is heading. We are talking to those who are invested in and affected by NIL including: Former and current college athletes, presidents and head coaches, broadcasters and media personalities, investors and more. This is just the beginning of NIL and what it means for the future of college athletics.
Host Jim Cavale is a former college athlete and entrepreneur who has become an advocate for young athletes across the country. In 2017, he created the INFLCR app that allowed athletes to build their brand on social media, and in 2021, evolved into the NIL management technology for more than 100,000 athletes across 200 college athletic programs. INFLCR has since been acquired by sports tech titan, Teamworks.
In 2023, Jim founded Athletes.org which which is the players association for college athletes to negotiate the best terms for their college athletics experience. AO provides its member athletes with a free membership, empowering them with a voice, on demand support, and group licensing income in the same ways that professional league associations do for their member athletes.
Tune in to a new episode on Wednesdays this summer and join in on the conversation on Instagram with @nowitslegalpod and @jimcavale.
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Transcript
Season Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Now It's Legal and this one is going to be fun. We told you before this season is going to be full of conversations with head coaches, athletes, athletic directors, even authors.
00:00:23
Speaker
It's going to be a fun season. This episode is the first time this season we're having a head coach on.
Interview with Josh Pastner Begins
00:00:28
Speaker
We have the head men's basketball coach from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Josh Pastner. Now, I first came across Coach Pastner when he was still playing when I watched an ESPN feature about him as a walk on it. The University of Arizona playing for Coach Lute Olson and the whole piece was about how he was there playing for Coach Olson.
00:00:47
Speaker
to really learn the ropes of coaching so he one day could ah realize his dream of
Pastner's Coaching Journey
00:00:52
Speaker
being head coach. And he got that opportunity at the University of Memphis, then at Georgia Tech,
00:00:57
Speaker
And after a short time broadcasting with ESPN and NBC, he is now the head basketball coach at UNLV, coming in hot, building a new roster with the transfer portal, NIL, the house settlement coming.
00:01:10
Speaker
It's a lot. And coach is always thinking ahead. That's what I love about him. So let's check out the interview between Josh Pastner and I for this episode of Now It's Legal.
00:01:21
Speaker
What's up coach? Thank you so much for making time. I know it's crazy right now building a roster and everything going on in college sports. And we're gonna have a conversation around
Current Climate in College Athletics
00:01:30
Speaker
all that today. But, you know, just to start, like, what's it been like?
00:01:33
Speaker
um You're, you know, a little more than a month in as the head coach at UNLV. You know, Jim, a few things. Thanks for having me and excited to be on with you. and And you know this world probably better than most and maybe than most coaches of the new climate of of college athletics. and um And I would like to, ah before even go into your question, to say that you've been a guy that's kind of ah ahead of the curve and you've been ahead of the curve for for a while now and and kind of forward thinking. So good for you on that. And you know you and I have had many discussions in the past on kind of what you had thought that that the climate was going to be moving to, and it has moved to that before it actually happened. So
00:02:16
Speaker
you're you're You're able to kind of see around the corner. And, and you know, Jimmy, this has been fast and furious. I've actually enjoyed the new model. I really have. I mean, um i think it's way more efficient. I think you get right to the point.
00:02:31
Speaker
ah Jim, the program is when I took over at Memphis and Georgia Tech. You know this. you're You already have your team in place. ah Maybe you're recruiting one or two unsigned seniors.
00:02:43
Speaker
There was no transfer portal. There was no and n NIL. If there was a transfer, he was going to have to sit out. um and And then you're probably going around a little bit, ah ah you know going to all the different high schools in the local and in your local area and the surrounding states and touching base with the grassroots coaches. The difference now is you know you're you're wearing so many different hats, meaning that on the recruiting, you've got to make quick, fast decisions based on film, especially based on guys who've played in college basketball. So you're watching a lot of film.
00:03:15
Speaker
You're out there immediately fundraising. you know In the past, there was probably a separate department that would just kind of handle all the fundraising you know for the facilities and everything else. Now the the head coach has to be heavily involved in fundraising, more so than the – Jim, more so than the actual fundraising for maybe facilities, but more for the NIL and to get to increase your your pool of of n NIL. So um it has been a completely different world in that. And I still think it's ever changing.
00:03:48
Speaker
Like you've got to be willing to adapt, be willing to be flexible, be willing to change. i kind of sort of call it wearing loose fit clothing. that you've got to be able to but um maneuver and be ready to change in real time because I do think college athletics is continuing to change in real time, and that's where we're at.
00:04:09
Speaker
It is changing in real time. And and those the delineation be between your experience at Memphis and Georgia Tech versus um this experience at UNLV has a lot to unpack in it. um I think the biggest place I want to start when we look at the current state of college athletics, some call it chaos. Others call it the wild, wild west.
00:04:30
Speaker
One thing we can objectively say is it's an unstructured environment. There are no rules. I mean, there's really not even a transfer portal. And I have to knock that home every time I talk about it because they'll say, well, the portal is going to close and then the portal is going to open. But technically, the NCAA has even come out and said, you can unenroll and enroll at a school anytime you want right now.
00:04:51
Speaker
Xavier Lucas, the wide receiver, ah formerly at Wisconsin, proved that when he decided to leave for a better n NIL package to go to Miami. And, um you know, it's just the reality of the situation. There are no rules. So for you to build a roster um on one side, you get to start from scratch. You're getting experienced guys who've already played at the college level.
00:05:13
Speaker
instead of maybe unproven but talented high school guys. um How do you evaluate the talent um and and and look at it with a correlation of compensation value with the lack of information available in the market?
Challenges in Talent Evaluation and Compensation
00:05:30
Speaker
i mean, you're really kind of going off a hearsay when you hear what guys might be worth or what their value is. How how do you work on that without full data?
00:05:40
Speaker
Yeah, Jim, you know, you talk about it. I think that's probably if there was an issue that I had of the most, I think there's probably ah is that one of them is a transparency because it is like you said, it's it's not comparable to pro sports. Pro sports, um you know, you you you know, if there's an offer sheet and you know what someone's, you know, it's it's knowledge within the within the institutions of that pro sports. And I get it. There's only 30 some odd teams of different pro teams, pro sports, whether it's basketball, football, whatever it may be.
00:06:12
Speaker
And there's 300 some teams and in Division I college, men's college basketball. So I get it's little different, but I think the transparency part is is something that I think we all really want. Now you might say, and I, hey, and I think it's moving that way. I think again, that that the way to get the transparency part is it's got to be ah maybe a potential collective bargaining agreement and they become employees. And and maybe that's the, way I think that's the way it's going unless the federal government's going to step in. I don't think there's any other way.
00:06:42
Speaker
It's either got to be the federal government's making a law um or or there's going to be a collective bargaining agreement and they become employees. i don't I don't know any other way for it to be to get to that point where there's transparency.
00:06:55
Speaker
So you know you're not kind of um ah bidding against yourself and negotiating against yourself in the contracts. And so I think that's something I think everyone wants is transparency and the best way to get to that point.
00:07:07
Speaker
And then I also think the second thing is is is probably on contracts. that And I think it's important. And I think the best way to do it is you're through a federal law or have they need to become employees.
00:07:18
Speaker
um And through a collective bargaining that if you do have a contract and once you sign it and you break it, there's got to be a penalty, you know, as would as would anything and and um and in in in any way, but to get to that point, I think that's those are one of the two's got to happen for it to get to get to there so.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yes. And then to your question on about evaluating, you've got to do a great job evaluating through the film and you've got to then decide within your budget, this individual, can you pay this individual if you think he's at that level?
00:07:49
Speaker
Based on the film, um are you ready to to to make that type of offer sheet? And doing the intel with the other coaches um you know that he's played for to find out some of his you know good character, maybe character flaw, whatever it may be, so you know what you're getting on the front end if there is some issues that you've got to be aware of.
00:08:12
Speaker
So much there. So another accountability aspect, there's there's two accountability aspects to what you choose to pay the player. um The first one is, is, you know, wherever you're getting the money from, because we all know this isn't coming from ah cash flowing, profitable business, college athletics departments, even the biggest ones like a Texas or Ohio State. are coming up with $20 new million dollars to be able to pay athletes.
00:08:36
Speaker
um So you've got accountability to whoever is helping as a source for the funding to make sure that you got the compensation right. But then you also have to – you're building a roster from scratch.
00:08:47
Speaker
So the team chemistry aspect provides accountability because if you bring in a player for half as much as another player and that player who was getting paid half as much ends up playing twice as many minutes – You know, I mean, from a chemistry standpoint, that could create a problem. So how do you balance, um you know, i guess the answer is talent evaluation, but it's an important balance you're going to have to have to build team chemistry, what you choose to pay the players.
00:09:14
Speaker
Well, you know, it's interesting, Jim. I think the revenue sharing, if it goes through with the house settlement and all those things that, you know, eventually if it passes and and whatever else comes down the pipe, you know, down the road, and as it's ever evolving, changing of the of the landscape of college athletics, the more it can come from within, is as you just mentioned, is probably better because, um you know, Jim, because then what happens is,
00:09:37
Speaker
As you mentioned, the donors can become owners, you know, i mean, when they're giving the money, I mean, that's the reality of it. And I get it when you're raising money and and you're putting it into on some players. And and and and look, I say this all the time, Jim, the the the pro teams who spend millions and millions on evaluating probably get it right at about 50%, whether it's football, basketball, baseball, hockey. I mean, there's probably a 50% accuracy and they spend years and millions on trying to get it right. So you're asking the college coaches maybe in a two, three week time period to get it right too. and Without a front office.
00:10:14
Speaker
without a So, yeah, so so that's that's that's some – those are some of the things there. but But, um yes, you're right about that, about, you know, you're bringing in a brand new team, the chemistry. Guys are going to get – different guys are going to get different payments, you know, different – and not everyone's equal across the board, just like it is in pro sports in in a sense.
00:10:34
Speaker
I think the key to that, Jim, is a few things. Number one, you've got to be a good evaluator still. ah You know, as much as we can talk in recruiting, you've got to do a great to try to the best job you can evaluating in ah in a quick amount of time.
00:10:46
Speaker
Secondly, i feel I still believe in player development. I still think that matters. You've got to get guys better, even though there's, you know, guys still want to be be be able to be pushed and demanded of excellence and and be held at a high level.
00:10:59
Speaker
Three, I don't think you can try to play any secrets in this deal. That doesn't mean, i think, total transparency within your locker room. That doesn't mean you're telling each person what everyone's making because it's the contracts are technically confidential.
00:11:13
Speaker
But you've got to address it head on. like Everyone's not making same mounts here. Some guys are going to make more than others. That's just the reality that we're at. Let's just call it like it is. Some guys are, you know, not everyone's going to be unequal payment wise based on the initial part of the contract. That's, that's again, that's the reality part.
00:11:31
Speaker
I think being transparent to everybody on the front end at the beginning part's important. And then fourth and fifth, I think, You've got to coach your team as hard as you can without worrying about are they going to transfer. You probably have to assume you've got to coach your team in a way that you're going coach them hard, demand excellence, hold them accountability with the assumption that the whole team is going to go in the portal next year and you're going to start all over again. I mean, that's – If you try to think you're going to coach in ah in a way to keep a couple guys, I don't think that works personally. You just got to coach it and assume everyone's going in the portal. and then
00:12:06
Speaker
And then from there, I would say that the the the fifth and final thing is is, and it kind of goes back to to transparency about it, is um just knowing that, again, you know it's it's when the ball's tipped,
00:12:21
Speaker
you're not playing politics of it. You're going to play the best guys on the floor because as you just mentioned, Jim, and as I mentioned, you know, you're still going to be held. The head coach is still going to be looked at about winning, you know, his winning games and you're going to put the best players on the floor. And maybe if someone who's not making as much as someone else, but can help you win more games is just better. And you, and you had a,
00:12:42
Speaker
You're going to play that person because you can't get involved in the politics of the NIL of the money structure. You just got to play the best on the floor to try to win the game. And and that's the way you go. And so um I think you would and and I know you would agree with me, I think moving forward.
00:12:57
Speaker
if they can get to a way where either, again, and tell me if I'm wrong, either a federal law, which I don't know if they're, you know, they Congress and Senate have a lot of other things to focus on. I don't know if it'll get to that.
00:13:08
Speaker
You probably have a better feel than I do, and I would love to hear what you say on this. Or, You're going to have to make them employees and that way everyone can be helped. It's just so much more transparency and probably in a simple um structure for everybody.
00:13:24
Speaker
and there's no and And there's not as much gray area. So tell me, I like to add reverse and ask you on those two things.
Structuring College Basketball: Legal Paths
00:13:30
Speaker
There's really, there's there's two paths, highest level description. There's two paths. One is you can set the structure for college basketball within the current confines of the law.
00:13:42
Speaker
And the other option is you could set the structure for college basketball by creating a new law. With the first one, the current confines of the law allow you to set the structure for college basketball through making athletes who play college basketball employees and allowing them to unionize so that they can collectively bargain with the schools who they play for, not school by school, but the schools would all have to be a part of one entity, call it college basketball, LLC.
00:14:10
Speaker
And that entity And those athletes would collectively bargain. That is protected by the National Labor Relations Act and comes with an antitrust exemption that would allow the rules to be set without all these new lawsuits.
00:14:23
Speaker
And the rules could be everything from free agency to transfer rules to minimum maximum compensation, veteran bonus pools and incentive bonuses, health and safety rules, eligibility caps, all the things that we need to figure out.
00:14:36
Speaker
that's That's option one, do it within the current confines of the law. Option two, create a new law. There's really one approach right now that's falling flat on its face, and that's the leaders of college athletics asking Congress for an antitrust exemption, along with codification of the house settlement terms and preemption of all the state laws so that there's one NIL law federally.
00:14:58
Speaker
And the reason it's falling flat on his face is because the athletes don't have any voice in it and it would stop employment from happening forever. And those two things I just said are concerns from the Democratic Party. And you can't get a bill done without 60 votes in the Senate and 212 votes in the House. And even though both the House and the Senate have majority Republicans you still have to have seven Democratic senators you know vote on that bill.
00:15:25
Speaker
And so another way to do it in that second option of creating a new law is to revise the bill a little bit and say, you know what, we want to preempt all the state NIL laws.
00:15:36
Speaker
We want to have a uniform NIL law nationally. um We want to codify some of the terms of the House settlement. And we also want to have a compromise around this employment thing where We want the athletes to be designated as non-employee contractors, but we're willing to allow them to collectively bargain as contractors.
00:15:56
Speaker
And in that bill would be ah non-statutory labor exemption that allows an organization representing the athletes as contractors to collectively bargain for So there is technically a way, with the help of Congress, for college basketball players to collectively bargain without being employees, but it would take a new law. Whereas the current confines of the law, if they were made employees and allowed to unionize, would allow it to happen right away. so jim So Jim, let me ask you this.
00:16:20
Speaker
and i And I know, hey, look, I'm putting my meaty hat on now. You know what i mean? Yeah, no, love it. I love it. i'm it's a music You know, I'm asking you the question now. So the the house settlement goes through. Okay.
00:16:31
Speaker
So tell me, does that then stop lawsuits or does that, raise the is the house settlement, is it a It's a law. I mean, and judges would would sign off and and and put it through.
00:16:43
Speaker
but So what does that stop? what What does that mean once the house settlement goes through, I guess? Yeah. Unfortunately, the only thing the house settlement really addresses is some, not even all, of the compensation rules.
00:16:56
Speaker
Really, the biggest thing it does is it allows the schools to directly pay the athletes with a cap of how much they can pay the athletes. And it also addresses some some roster ah limits and and unlocks ah scholarships. You can give unlimited amount of scholarships.
00:17:14
Speaker
But past that, it really doesn't do much. It's not collective bargaining, not even close. I had a power for or autonomy for commissioner tell me to my face at the CFP this year that ah the house settlement is collective bargaining. No, it's not.
00:17:27
Speaker
It's not even close. Less than 0.1% of the athletes are were represented by the plaintiff's lawyers in that settlement. And it only addresses a small, small part of the rules that we need to set.
00:17:39
Speaker
And so the house settlement is gonna create a lot of problems. And that's actually where I was gonna go next. So I'll answer your question and segue into a question back to you. um but But there's many problems. It doesn't address transfer rules.
00:17:53
Speaker
And yet people are going to try to use these school NIL deals that are now allowed up to 20 million a year between the school and the athlete. to enforce a transfer rule by doing a multi-year term in the deal.
00:18:07
Speaker
But it's going to be tough to enforce if the athlete leaves early and owes a buyout. And I guess the school might sue the athlete, which would be bad for recruiting. And it's it's just a mess. And so the but the biggest problem, the biggest problem out of all of them, and there's a bunch,
00:18:23
Speaker
We're calling it NIL. It's not NIL. It's pay for play. These are performance deals. You're not going to a recruit, correct me if I'm wrong, saying, hey, I want you to come play point guard at UNLV.
00:18:35
Speaker
and And you're saying, I want you point guard and here's the type of NIL deal I can get you And I think it'd be about, you know, I'm making this up $100,000. Well, that athlete and you both think that he's coming to UNLV and going to make $100,000 to be a dang good point guard.
00:18:51
Speaker
But in the contract, it's an NIL deal. It's an endorsement deal where the athlete's going to endorse UNLV by representing it in different ways and doing appearances and all the things that you're seeing schools do. We're disguising performance pay-for-play deals as NIL deals.
00:19:07
Speaker
And that's why there's no transparency. Because I don't know what Patrick Mahomes makes on his NIL endorsement deals with State Farm because that's his information and it's protected by FERPA. But I do know what he makes to play quarterback for the Kansas City Chiefs because it's a performance contract with a base salary.
00:19:24
Speaker
And if he makes it to the AFC Championship, he gets a bonus. If he makes to Super Bowl, he gets a bonus. he wins a Super Bowl, he gets a bonus. If he leads the league in passing, he gets a bonus. It's all based on performance. That's how these contracts should be with the athletes,
00:19:37
Speaker
But the schools are so scared of employment happening that they're literally disguising pay for play as NIL. And we've been doing that all along. And it's a huge, huge issue that if we would just admit this is performance and call it what it is, it would start the steps of then saying, OK, what's the uniform contract look like? Let's set those across all schools to look the same.
00:20:01
Speaker
What's the minimum? What's the maximum? How do we create a veterans pool where athletes are motivated to stay in a school? What are the transfer and free agency roles in periods of time that work best for the athletes and academics and for the for the for the coaches?
00:20:14
Speaker
What are the academic standards so that the athletes still have to perform at a certain level academically? What's the eligibility cap so that athletes can't keep saying they want another year and another year and another year and another year?
00:20:25
Speaker
These things all can be addressed by having that negotiation between the athletes and the schools. But there's such a fear from a political standpoint of unionization that we're trying to to or swear pegging around home.
00:20:38
Speaker
To do that, to do what you're talking about, like a c a CBA um for on on option one, as you mentioned, yeah um you need to have like does every school like opt in to do that? And then you need to get you know, you're not going to get every single student athlete. um I mean, you know what i mean? So you have to have a how how does that work to get that to happen? I guess we've my question to you.
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah. So what what what you would do is, is um first of all, the schools can do what Kentucky just did and separate their athletic department from the school as a private entity. um And we just saw that last week at the University of Kentucky athletic department.
00:21:15
Speaker
From there, um you could do that even per sport if you needed to. And for the sports that want to deem their athletes employees, um so that they can collectively bargain, those schools would separate their sport as an entity. And that entity would be a part of a global entity for that sport or a national entity for that sport.
00:21:34
Speaker
And that would be the league body that would be collectively bargaining for the rules from the league's side. Meanwhile, in the contracts, each of the athletes would automatically be a member of a players association that they would be a part of to collectively bargain from that vehicle with the league.
00:21:52
Speaker
And from there, every team would have a player rep, one, and each player rep would take the consideration of their teammates and then have a vote on the rules. And those player reps, the majority of what they want would be their vote. So whatever 51% of them want with transfer rules, that's their vote for transfer rules. Whatever 51% of them want for anything.
00:22:13
Speaker
But, Jim, here's my question to you. In reality, you know, when you're dealing – because I hear what you're saying. In pro sports, it's all under the and NBA. There's 30 owners. You know i mean? In NFL, 32. thirty two There's 30. In college athletics, you've got – mean, let's use Division I basketball. There's 360 teams and 30-some-odd conferences.
00:22:32
Speaker
Plus you have in athletic departments, you have tennis, you have golf, you have soccer, you have football, you have volleyball. yeah yeah So, so how does that work? Because it, because i get it.
00:22:43
Speaker
It can't, it's not the NBA or it's not a pro sport because those pro sports is just, it's, you have such, it's a 30 to 32 team deal and all owners and, they're under one you know organization, if that makes sense. How does that work?
00:22:56
Speaker
How would that, how would your idea- think the cleanest way to do it is by conference. I think the cleanest way to do it is by conference because the conferences have a smaller sample size of teams. um I think you could also conglomerate conferences like the Autonomy 4 together.
00:23:11
Speaker
as four conferences doing it. I think that's the way to get past your quantity issue because it is a real issue. I think that at each school, there should be a player rep for every team at that school because there's some issues that affect all athletes, such as their sport even being in existence, having a certain amount of scholarships, travel and living conditions, academic requirements, transfer rules, that affects all
Impact of Revenue Sharing on Non-Revenue Sports
00:23:39
Speaker
sports.
00:23:39
Speaker
But then there's a layer of things that only affect college basketball. There's a layer of things that only affect college football. And those player reps for those sports at those schools would then be able to vote on those things.
00:23:52
Speaker
And so that's, i mean, what we've built at athletes.org is one general association with chapters within it based on sport and conference, because we believe all sports and conferences have differences and similarities where they need to be united in smaller groups to be able to negotiate for those specific things. So um I think there's definitely a way to accomplish um getting through the complexity of the amount of schools for men's basketball or whatever example you want to use football be, you know, just short of 130 FBS schools.
00:24:25
Speaker
um I think there's ways to get around it, but ultimately the real thing is who are the schools? What, what, what entity are they a part of that they're negotiating from?
00:24:36
Speaker
Because a lot of schools have it in their head. Well, we can't collectively bargain. We're in a right to work state. We don't allow unionization in our state, so we can't even do it. No, no. The Atlanta Falcons players don't collectively bargain with the Atlanta Falcons. Right.
00:24:50
Speaker
They collectively bargain with the NFL and there needs to be a centralized entity. Maybe it's this enforcement entity that my old friend, Ross Bjork from Ohio state and others are on the board of that's going to enforce everything and have the Deloitte system regulate fair market value. An entity like that is a good example.
00:25:08
Speaker
of the type of entity that the schools would need to be members of to collectively bargain from with the athletes. And i think that's the biggest thing that the schools have to figure out is who wants to collectively bargain and what is their vehicle to do it.
00:25:21
Speaker
So Jim, tell me about with the with the if the house settlement revenue sharing, does that hurt non-revenue sports? Where do you think that, where does that fall in and all all this model now?
00:25:32
Speaker
You know, with, with, with a lot of the Olympic sports, Yeah, I think it could. I think that the the the reality I brought up earlier, which is that even the biggest power conference schools don't just have 20 million laying around and aren't profiting 20 million a year.
00:25:48
Speaker
um So everyone's going to have to scramble to find the 20. And of course, those bigger schools will have an easier job of getting the 20 than the smaller schools. And so everyone is going to find out that there's not enough revenue increase opportunities two um to to keep expenses the way they are.
00:26:09
Speaker
And i think you're going to see a lot of different expenses get cut. I think coach deals are going to look different. Buyouts and coach deals are going to look different. AD and other. executive salaries are going to look different.
00:26:19
Speaker
um But I also think you're going to see some sports get cut and maybe they still exist, but they don't have scholarships. I mean, there's going to see a lot of that kind of stuff. And that's where I've sat in rooms at schools where we have player reps for athletes.org from every team.
00:26:35
Speaker
And we've all sat in one room together. And the player reps for the non-football basketball sports are all in agreement that those sports should get all the 20 million. Those athletes should get all the 20 million.
00:26:47
Speaker
They're fine with them getting paid and not getting paid themselves. They just want to know that in exchange for being okay with that, their sport's going exist, that there's still going to be scholarships and it's going to exist.
00:26:58
Speaker
And so um the fact that the schools have not involved the athletes at all in the house settlement is creating a fear um and and in ah in and a naivete sometimes that's not fair. It's unfair to the athletes. And we saw it for seven hours on April 7th during the house settlement hearing.
00:27:16
Speaker
We saw athletes and lawyers object to the settlement for hours, right? And and roster limits being the biggest point that was brought up. So um yeah, it's going to create problems I said earlier, like around the fact that we're disguising pay for play as n NIL, but also problems in the form of having sports that exist and how those sports are treated.
00:27:40
Speaker
So, much okay, you go ahead, you got no go ahead Jim. Well, I just want to ask you, like you're, you know, you're, you're, you're having to do it the way it is now. So how do you talk to an athlete knowing that they're really signing an NIL deal with UNLV or with your collective, but at the same time, you want to hold them accountable to play point guard? Like, how do you approach that?
00:28:01
Speaker
Well, I think, again, going back and and, you know, I think you've got to be up front as transparent with the with the with the student athlete that you're talking to. i think being being very direct.
00:28:13
Speaker
um um Again, I don't think you can be secretive about any of this stuff. You know what I mean? And so um and you've got to find guys who who who have who want to win within.
00:28:24
Speaker
Look. we're We're in America. It's the greatest country in the in the world. I mean, you the to be able to to to do a living being coaching or playing, it's an incredible gift. I mean, it's all a gift. And so, um so but but, you know, i the way I look at it, you want, whether it's a players or coaches, you you want guys who are going to be driven and and the drive to be to be great what regardless of what regardless of what the financial impact may be. And look, financial monies, it's part of life. It's part of um it's part of being what's being how why America is so awesome. and And that all being said, you still got to be guys who are going to be highly motivated, who want to win, who are going to be competitors. And
00:29:11
Speaker
ah ah and and and find ways to have to to to to want to do great things for the team, to have great success. And so I think it's that's part of the intel and the evaluation part, Jim, and and that you've got to find. Because I read a story the other day where the and NBA now personnel are really trying to find do guys who are making now money in NIL and are staying longer in college, which gives the NBA more opportunity to evaluate But do how do they handle the finances? Do they still play?
00:29:46
Speaker
Does that loose ball on the floor, are they still diving for it or are they not diving for it? And those type of things, they're really intelling on that now because obviously if you get to be a for be a professional, which every student athlete wants to play pro,
00:30:00
Speaker
You know, and they're now deciding, hey, can we invest into this individual or will the financial impact, you know, he he won't be able to play at the level that we need him to because he'll kind of just ah kind of go through the motions. And so I think there's a lot of things and that's where part of it, you've got to find the motor of guys, that the drive within Stoll's got to matter regardless of the payment.
00:30:26
Speaker
I mean, and the balancing of um the NBA dreams and if they're achieved, the financial opportunity of that versus whatever they're trying to get now, that's a teaching opportunity for you. And how they respond to that might tell you and inform you whether or not you want that young man to be a part of your program.
00:30:46
Speaker
but I think and you're 100% right.
Debate on Limiting Eligibility in College Sports
00:30:49
Speaker
And even going back to our earlier part of our conversation, Jim, I really think it's important. So transparency, there's two things I've talked about. I think every coach wants transparency. And I really believe every coach and most people that are watching college football sports want there to be a stoppage at some point of this eligibility.
00:31:09
Speaker
Like they do, I don't think it's it's right for, and I get the COVID thing was a totally separate deal. I get it. And everyone got the additional year, but as that has passed, like for for an 18, 19 year old to be playing against a 25, 26 year old, that that is not what college athletics was meant to be.
00:31:27
Speaker
Other. Yes, there's some exceptions. I get it. Military, religious, certain things. There's maybe you can look. But but just trying to continue to get an extra year here or there for because you want to stay in college longer.
00:31:39
Speaker
I don't think that's what the the best for model. And I don't think it's the best for the fan bases either. I do think there's got to be an expiration date at some point of college eligibility eligibility up. And end how do we get there? I agree with you, Jim, that. that There's either got to be within the collective bargaining or some law that says, here's the thing. Or I don't know how you feel. Maybe this is going to this way.
00:32:01
Speaker
You have five years to play five and that's it. There's no, there's nothing else. You can't, there's no waivers. You have five years. I don't know if that's the way to go. ah Whether it's whether you started in junior college, division two, division one, no matter what you have five years.
00:32:16
Speaker
If you red shirt, you got injured, you just have five years. Tell me your thoughts about the eligibility deal and and about the about eventually there's got to be an expiration date of as in terms of you can't be continue to be playing in college.
00:32:28
Speaker
Other than those maybe the the ah religious and and military exception, which they which the NCAA has on the books right now. Right. I think it's not a matter of um even if it's ah right or wrong of a rule, um it's more of you can't really set it unless you collectively bargain it. And the reason is, is you're going to be capping somebody's proven earning potential now because they're going to be able to show they were making this much a year. And now because of this dumb rule, I can't go to school anymore and play basketball. That's not fair. And then they can sue and you're seeing
00:33:01
Speaker
the results of that. i mean, personally, yeah, I think there should be a limit on eligibility. I think there should be limits on a lot of things. And most athletes that we engage, I mean, we have 4,400 members and we engage them in a lot of different ways through our app and polling and surveying and in-person and events.
00:33:18
Speaker
They want transfer rules. They're fine with eligibility rules. Matter of fact, I would say generally all of these categories we're talking about, the athletes and what they want is closer to the schools and what they want than both sides even know.
00:33:33
Speaker
But the fact that they're not able to have a seat at the table and negotiate these things just because of the schools not making it a priority and trying to get Congress to help them instead or trying to finish a settlement instead, it's prolonging the structure that everyone, both sides, deserves in this
Need for Leadership in Structural Changes
00:33:52
Speaker
industry. And and it's ah it's a really, really, really big issue.
00:33:56
Speaker
but but But also... I think, you know, there are there are a bunch of problems that could actually start being solved without collective bargaining, but through ah conversation between the athletes and the schools, and they all pertain to the house settlement. One example would be the contracts.
00:34:16
Speaker
Everyone should be working off a standard contract template. that's negotiated by the players with the schools. um You should know as a coach that the same template you use is the same template that any other school you're recruiting against uses. The numbers can be different, but it should be the same template.
00:34:33
Speaker
Shouldn't be able to you know fool an athlete or slip something in there and take advantage of them. um Number but two, there should be agent regulations. ah Why are we not certifying agents um who you know at least understand what they need to understand to provide good advice to the athlete? And why are we not regulating fees and um you know holding them accountable? like We need that.
00:34:54
Speaker
um And all the great agents want it. you know It's the ones who don't want it that you should be concerned about because they have that already with the MBPA or the NFLPA for pro agents, but they don't have that in college.
00:35:06
Speaker
um and And so those are two of of a few different examples of things that are already going to be a problem tomorrow. They kind of already are that we could address now.
00:35:17
Speaker
And it could be a progression, a phase toward eventually collectively bargaining everything else. And I think that those are the kind of opportunities i think I think you're going to see some leaders step up in the coming months and say, you know, maybe it's time that we start thinking about where this ends up and not just wait for it.
00:35:35
Speaker
But unfortunately, we're in an industry where everyone wants to, you know, nobody wants to be first and everyone wants to be second. And we need some people to step up and be first from the school side to really get the ball rolling on creating these structures.
00:35:51
Speaker
Good stuff. All right. I've asked enough questions of you now, Jim. I've interviewed you. I've done it. I'm going back to my coaching hat. Now I'm going back to my coaching hat. All right. All right. so let's talk about this. I remember you're going to kick out of this.
00:36:04
Speaker
I remember ah watching a sports center clip back in the day. I think I was still, I think it's before I left for college and it was a story about you walking on at Arizona And your your goal was to be a coach, right?
00:36:21
Speaker
And you've obviously pursued and clawed at that goal ah for your entire career. And it's really been fun to watch. um But when you think about why you originally got into coaching, and now you look at the fact that, because I'm sure it's going to be a lot about the relational side of things, developing players, developing young men into leaders,
00:36:43
Speaker
How do you balance the original reasoning for becoming a coach with this new transactional part of college basketball?
Balancing Coaching Motivations with New Realities
00:36:51
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, you're right. i And I know it talk but what you're talking about on the SportsCenter piece, too. And that's funny. It seems like yesterday. I can remember. I know exactly what you're talking about. It seems like yesterday.
00:37:02
Speaker
How time flies, if you're certain on that. goes back to my thought process that every day is literally a gift. Every heartbeat's a gift. Every breath is a gift because just time does not stand still.
00:37:13
Speaker
um But, yes, i've the reason I got into coaching, I mean, because I love – Basketball. I love, ah you know, look, my dream was to play in the and NBA. Obviously, I wasn't good enough and I recognize that. So I figured the next best thing to playing was coaching because it allowed you to have that to be around a team and the camaraderie. and And as a coach, you have a chance to.
00:37:33
Speaker
to help and get better. And it's, and you feel like you have a purpose in a sense, you know, i mean, yes, you look, every one of us want to win every game we coach. I mean, who doesn't you want to win every time you, I mean, if you're a competitor, you want to win. I mean, that's what makes athletics is, is so awesome as you it's a, it's an opportunity to compete.
00:37:49
Speaker
And but the real deal of being able to to get guys better, improve guys, make an impact and a positive difference in their lives, having like just having guys I've coached at Georgia Tech or Memphis or or or or even as an assistant coach at Arizona who've called me and just say, coach, man.
00:38:09
Speaker
I just had a baby or I'm getting married or coach. i Can you, you know, I got a, I got a, a, a piece of advice I need to get from you. I mean, those things are, you can't put a price tag on that.
00:38:20
Speaker
And, and so you, how do you balance the, the, the, the the deal now where there is NIL and trans and it can be sometimes transactional and a quick,
00:38:31
Speaker
you know, moving part. I think as the coach, you still got to make it about relationships. You got to still make it about that. Yes, you you can't take the personal, you can't take it personal that there's money involved and that there's contracts involved.
00:38:45
Speaker
And you've got to, you've got to somehow separate that mentally and that they when they get to campus, you've got to just be fully invested into them and and coach them hard and love on them hard and and and and and be excited and enthused about the profession you're in, not always thinking about the the contract part.
00:39:02
Speaker
Yes, they're going to get paid. Yes, there's accountability to that. Yes, they've got to perform and produce and all those good things. ah but But trying to still keep the contract not forgetting what, why you walked into this profession, why you wanted to get into it, why you had the excitement, enthusiasm and the energy to to want to be part of that. and if you can remember that, I think that helps keep a little bit of ah a line between that and and some of the, maybe the the transactional part.
00:39:31
Speaker
Well, I think, you know, coach, I love the fact that you're a grinder and I know that about you from watching your career the The little bit we've gotten to know each other. The first time we ever met, you were in a weight room at the same hotel as me. i was in Durham at the the Teamworks headquarters. It was right after I had sold my company to Teamworks. And I was there for a meeting. And I was headed to the Duke game.
00:39:56
Speaker
And who was playing Duke that night? Georgia Tech. 9 p.m. tip. And Coach Pastner is in the weight room at like 545, grinding on the Stairmaster. And that's that was the first time first time we actually met, and probably five, six years ago. but I bring that story up and and in reference you being a grinder because this is a time where a lot of coaches are retiring.
00:40:20
Speaker
This is just too much, especially the older successful coaches. You know, I mean, we've still got Izzo and self, but I mean, you know, Jay Wright, Jim Boeheim, coach K football side, Nick Saban, um,
00:40:34
Speaker
it's like that sony bennett i mean he Tony Tony Bennett. Yeah, that's ah that's a great example. so But you you seem to be the type of leader that, based on where you're at, some of it has to do with age, season of life, you got you got some you got some good stuff left in the tank, and there's a lot of opportunity with all the chaos.
00:40:56
Speaker
No, you're right. It's tremendous opportunity. What's amazing is I actually love the new model. I love I And that's what's crazy about it. Of course, being in television last couple of years, everyone was telling me how bad the profession is and negative about it.
00:41:09
Speaker
I look at the exact opposite. I have loved it. I have enjoyed it. um I'm a guy that looks at the glass as overflowing. I'm not a half full guy. i mean, I'm overflowing. So I see the goodness in everything. Of course, there's challenges with the current climate. I get that.
00:41:26
Speaker
ah Yes, I've been out two years, so maybe that's, re you know, I have a good energy about it. But just by my natural makeup, my DNA, my um my thought process, I'm just a very positive person.
00:41:39
Speaker
And just by natural, just instinct. And so I'm oh i'm not looking at things in a negative way. I'm looking at really in a positive way. And and you're right. I've been excited, enthused. I have loved this, the new I've been excited.
00:41:54
Speaker
i think it's I think it can be extremely efficient. I think there's a lot of good to it. Yes, there's some things that need to be cleaned up and and taken care of, and and there are some
Positivity Towards New College Basketball Model
00:42:04
Speaker
challenges.
00:42:04
Speaker
But I think that there's just so many positives with it. we've just And I think maybe that's just on how you look at it, the outlook of it, and and your viewpoint of it. And that's just personally my my my viewpoint on that. and so And I love dealing with people.
00:42:19
Speaker
Because you're you're dealing with people more so now than ever. And if you don't like dealing with people, that might not be it might be a harder deal in this profession. But right now, I love dealing with people. I've always have. I'm a people's guy. And and I think if, you know, I've got many, many weaknesses. But one of my strengths, I think, is is i kind of say I get it. When I say I get it, I understand human beings for the most part. I understand the situations and and and I can look at people, i can see things from different lenses at times and be able to to understand the big picture.
00:42:53
Speaker
So do you think that it was a fluke that there were four number one seeds in the final four this year for the first time in more than 15 years?
00:43:04
Speaker
Or do you think that that's going to become the norm and it's going to be harder for an FAU to make a run with this new new model? No, I don't. I think there was four number ones. There was the four best teams. Yes, they were older.
00:43:16
Speaker
um But I think they were the four best teams in the country. I mean, you go to the year that when FAU made the run, you could say the four best teams in the country were the four number one seeds. It's just in the tournament, I mean, Florida had a couple games. They could have easily lost twice during the course of their run to the Final Four. I mean, i mean you know you could have um you know Any of the teams could have lost along the way. It it still is a one-game scenario that anything can happen.
00:43:45
Speaker
And so I don't look at it like that. I just think it was this year. Those were the four. I think Florida was playing the best. Auburn was good all year long. Houston was you know it was obviously a dominant.
00:43:57
Speaker
So, I mean, you're looking at, you know again, the four number ones. is just that That's just the Duke was obviously – mean, I thought – and, again, covering the television – you know Duke was playing as well as anybody in the country. So I just think that's the way it was this year. It's not going to be like that every single year.
00:44:13
Speaker
You're going to have some teams have upsets. The tournament's still special. It just happened to be this year where the best teams – were the were were some of those upper tier conferences teams and they were able to do their job in the tournament.
00:44:27
Speaker
I just think it was one of those
Trends in Final Four Seeding
00:44:29
Speaker
years. We've had other years where it hasn't been like that. I don't look at as much as it's an NIL thing as it it's just it it was just a year where the best teams produced, performed, and they did their job in the tournament.
00:44:41
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. i think some people have come up with a narrative of, you know, the mid-major run is over and and I don't agree with it. Jay Billis had a great take on it recently as well and talked about the advantage mid-majors have at getting a younger talent who's not developed enough yet to maybe be like, ah you know, the the the point guard at Florida who transferred from Iona after proving himself there. And and and so do you think ah So we get a CBA done. We get a collective bargaining agreement done for college basketball. We set all the rules I said earlier. Right.
00:45:11
Speaker
and And with the transfer rules, do you think that a mid-major who develops a great player who ends up transferring up to a big time school should get a transfer fee for that?
00:45:25
Speaker
um you know i don't know on that. i mean look i mean i don't know should you you know I think if there's a in your contract, there's a buyout that if you decide to leave, I think that there i think it's a buyout, then you got to be you gotta hold you got to hold the line with the contract.
00:45:42
Speaker
But I don't think you should get a transfer fee. Look, if if we have a great player and we and the player here has great success and he goes in the portal next year and he forces us to either we got to match you know pay him at a level that he needs to be paid at or he's going to go and get something at a higher level, good for him. like i it's That's awesome.
00:46:01
Speaker
You know what i mean? I don't think anyone should pay us. you know, or anyone should, I don't think. Now, if we had a guy that had a contract and it was, I'm just making this up. That was a three-year contract. And, and if he left the contract to go to somewhere else and there was a buyout, either he or the team that he was leaving, you have to then buy out. Or if we wanted to say, you know what, you're not good enough. We want to get you out.
00:46:23
Speaker
Then we've got to honor the con and pay the, there were you know, the, the guaranteed part of what's remaining. So I think the contract part's got to be honored. I don't think there should be a transfer fee for anybody. I just think that whatever the contract is stated, that should be honored.
00:46:40
Speaker
And I think that's how that's what's great about America. that's That's how it should be. I mean, Jim, if you're you have a contract, i have a contract. If a player has a contract, you got to honor the contract and go forward from there.
00:46:52
Speaker
No doubt. No doubt. Couldn't agree more. um Coach, thanks so much for making time. This is fun conversation. ah love how you put your media hat on and asked me some questions as well and really enjoyed the conversation.
00:47:04
Speaker
I appreciate it, Jim. And keep, keep, Hey, you're ahead of the curve, man. So I'm going to be staying in touch with you all the time because you know, what's going on before anyone else does. You have a good, I would like to say some great leaders are able to kind of see around the corner before it actually what's coming around the corner before it happens. And you have that, that great innate ability in this topic to be able
Conclusion and Subscription Reminders
00:47:24
Speaker
to see that. So, um, uh, good for you and looking forward to staying connected with you.
00:47:30
Speaker
Great stuff from Coach Pastner. I mean, like I said, he's always thinking ahead. And that's really who we're going to keep featuring is people seeing around the corner at what's next in college athletics. And I almost felt like he was interviewing me sometimes more than I was interviewing him, which I love.
00:47:45
Speaker
I love having great conversations. Make sure you are subscribed to Now It's Legal on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, depending on which engine you prefer. Also make sure you're subscribed on YouTube. If you want to watch the episodes and follow us on Instagram at now it's legal pod, where you can get clips on upcoming episodes to stay in tune with what's coming next for everyone here on our team.
00:48:08
Speaker
I'm Jim Cavall. Thank you for joining us for another episode of now it's legal.