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Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog
62 Plays2 years ago
We take a small break from the Clone Saga to dig into the weird world of Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog! Learn all about how it began, the weird stories you could find, and the infamous Ken Penders.
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Transcript
Podcast Transition: From Clone Saga to Sonic Comics
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, this is Derek from the editing booth. Look, I just wanted to step in and let you know that this is going to be a slight break from what we have been doing. Corinne and I are actually not going to be covering the Clone Saga on today's episode. We are going to be diving deep into Archie's Sonic comics. This is going to be an interesting little story over the course of the next couple of episodes. I hope you enjoy it.
Introduction to Comically Pedantic
00:00:43
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Eric L. Chase, and joining me again on this episode is the wonderful Corinne Levy. Salutations, my children. I feel so professional. I have a microphone now, guys. Like a real microphone. Yeah, it's got heft.
00:01:11
Speaker
So it's real. Those are my determining factors on if something is real. If it has heft, it is real. If it does not have heft, it is fantasy. Like a, what about like a cloud? Clouds aren't real. Unless you have the cloud. At least you logically, you are consistent.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, unless you hand me a cloud and I go, oh, this is bigger than I thought it would, not real. And if you give me something and it's lighter than I think it should be, it's also not real.
Social Gatherings and LEGO Adventures
00:01:49
Speaker
So before we get started with today's episode, I should ask what your bright spot is? Well, we all got to hang out, so that was pretty great. That was awesome. I was unfortunately an hour late, but it still worked there.
00:02:06
Speaker
Time isn't that hefty. So I guess time isn't real. So that's okay. Um, no, it's fine. Uh, you all came to my house and we had a nice time. We ordered Italian food.
00:02:21
Speaker
and opened some prisons. So you and your lady got some Legos from us and that was a reboot. I hope you had fun with them. Oh yeah, I actually hurt my back. This is the most old man thing for me to talk about. But we were doing the Legos and I spent all day sort of like hunched over working on it. So that at the end of the day, I stood up and I was like, oh my God, my back hurts so much.
00:02:50
Speaker
The same thing happens to me whenever I do Legos because I get so enamored and hyper fixated on them that I just like keep going. And then I go to like sit up straight and I'm like, Oh my God, what did I just do to myself? I also love that these are the pains of like nerd hood instead of just like, this is our peak athleticism is just competitive Lego building.
00:03:15
Speaker
Well, so I will say that Austin took a break in the middle. Austin did a bunch. So I think she fared a little bit better than I did. Yeah, she paced herself. She had some good endurance.
00:03:27
Speaker
I did not. I went straight through. Because it was, it's so weird the way that it, there are so many tiny parts. Yeah.
Sonic LEGO and Podcast Relevance
00:03:38
Speaker
I was amazed at, like you, parts that you would think, oh, that's just one piece. It's like three. Yeah. And it's, it's so crazy. It's like a puzzle. Yeah. And so,
00:03:53
Speaker
This actually ties in pretty well. So my bright spot is the gifts that we were giving, seeing each other, all of that. And the gift that you guys gave me was a Sonic the Hedgehog Lego set. And what we're going to talk about today is Sonic the Hedgehog. I was actually editing another episode. And one of the things you had brought up, the silly, goofy Derek, is the Sonic the Hedgehog loving Derek.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah. And that's very true. And this is a story that I have wanted to tell for a couple of years now. In fact, if you go back really early into the podcast, like one of the first five or six episodes, I mentioned this is something I want to talk about on a future episode. It was the BC era before Corinne came into the podcast. No, no, I love having you on.
00:04:49
Speaker
This is one of the best parts of my week. Unfortunately, this is a good time. Scheduling is a bit of a problem every week, but that's not you. Life was not meant to be scheduled. It was just meant to happen. And life just keeps happening. It sure do. Not super happy about it. I'm relatively okay with it. I think there were some days where it's just like,
00:05:18
Speaker
Oh, but then other days I'm just like, I tend to be a very positive person when I'm at work. I'm very fixated on what I'm doing. And I like to goof and have fun with people I'm around, which translates well to, uh, them sending me places to boost morale, which is unfortunate that unfortunately means I go to places where there's a lot.
00:05:46
Speaker
not necessarily going right. And I come in to help fix it and also to give some people some levity while they're at work. And that's draining for me sometimes. Yeah, you're like Nanny McPhee. Sure. I've never read or seen any Nanny McPhee.
00:06:09
Speaker
You've never seen Nanny McPhee? No. Oh my God. No, it's the best. And the whole thing is like, if you need me, but don't want me, then I must stay. But if you want me, but no longer need me, then I have to go. And she's just like this woman that comes in and takes care of kids from
00:06:32
Speaker
of like this they're like terrible children of like a bunch of families and they're like we hate you nanny mcphie we don't want you around because you're like you have rules we didn't have rules before and then she teaches them how to be a loving family unit and they're like we love you nanny mcphie we want you to be a part of our family and she's like nah i did my job i must i must go
00:06:56
Speaker
It sounds like a mix of like Mary Poppins, the sound of music kind of stuff going on with families. Yeah, it is. It's a lot of fun. I think that you would like it as a cute family movie. I like the sound of music. Big fan. Big, big fan.
Sega's Quest for a Mascot
00:07:19
Speaker
So growing up in the early days of Nintendo and Sega, I have been around and seen the many ups and downs of early gaming, but probably none so volatile as that of Sonic the Hedgehog.
00:07:39
Speaker
In 1990, Sega president Hayao Nakayama decided that their company needed a flagship series and a mascot to be able to compete with the Nintendo's Mario franchise. The recently released Super Mario Bros. 3 had at that time been crowned the best-selling video game ever, while Sega was still porting arcade games over to their Sega Genesis system.
00:08:03
Speaker
To solve this issue, Nakayama held an internal contest to find the flagship game that they could use to promote their system and finally compete with Nintendo. Development on the game focused on speed to highlight the movements that could be accomplished through the use of an engine that allowed scrolling to happen far faster than before. When the developers agreed to focus on utilizing one button instead of Mario's use of two, they quickly realized they needed to find a way to allow the character to deal damage, so they settled on the idea that they could roll into a ball while in the air.
00:08:32
Speaker
The concept of a hedgehog character by designer Naoto Arshima, I'm going to just flat out apologize if I mispronounce any of these names because I'm sure I am, was quickly scribbled out on some paper and a few small adjustments later, the world would have their newest video game mascot. Knuckles! Mr. Needlemouse. Now, as often is the case,
00:08:58
Speaker
Early development on these types of series led to lots of things being thrown at the wall and Sonic's name was no different. The original name written off to the side of the sketches was Mr. Hedgehog, but this is often translated literally into English as Mr. Needlemouse.
00:09:14
Speaker
So like hedgehog in Japanese is needle mouse, which makes more sense than hedgehog, I think. Well, kind of. I mean, like some hedges and shrubbery could be pointy like a hedgehog.
00:09:31
Speaker
So I don't know, I'm trying real hard. I really like the name Hedgehog, so I'm rooting for it. I like, no, I'm fine with it. I just think it like, if you were to go in a literal description, needle mouse is great. There's actually in the IEW. I wonder if we should give Porcupine the Hedgehog title because Porcupines are much larger. Yeah. And they look more pig-ish.
00:09:57
Speaker
a little bit, they're kind of like a spiky capybara, but needle capybara sounds like a lot to say. Um, but then you could, so you could graduate the porcupine to hedgehog title, get rid of the porcupine name or have it like be an alternative. And then you can name hedgehogs needle mice. I see. I like that. Yeah.
00:10:19
Speaker
I think we got a plan. We're going to just upend the taxonomy that we have in America. I'm going to break into the Department of Biology.
00:10:30
Speaker
That's not a thing. I'll make it a thing and then I'll break into it and I'll be like, listen up, y'all. This is it. We got it. We're changing some things up. We're doing biology season two. Um, and that's going to be the whole plan. I also think it's funny, uh, before we get too far into the timeline of Sonic that Sega had to make something to compete with Mario, but now.
00:11:00
Speaker
because the Sonic movies came out and they did really well. Now Nintendo is scrambling to make a Mario movie. Well, have you seen the original Mario movie? Yes. With John Leguizamo? Yes. How could I not see it? It's iconic.
00:11:18
Speaker
Genuinely, I love that movie as not take it out of Mario. So let's just go like weird movies. The only way to love it is if you take it out of what it's supposed to be based off of. Right. That's the only way to love it. I went to the theater when that came out to see it.
00:11:39
Speaker
And I left being like, hell yeah, that was a lot of fun. I was also a child. I watched it on YouTube and I was, I think like 16 and I was like, this is goofy, but I like it. So the thing with SEGA and Sonic that I think is really interesting is, yeah, it comes out of we have to compete with Nintendo
00:12:07
Speaker
But it's also like, it's one of those things where how do we limit what we're doing? Uh, so that we can show off, like they decided to go off of one button and then that made them have to really innovate on how their character moves. So a lot of like what makes Sonic Sonic came out of them just saying, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna limit what we can do on, on our console.
00:12:35
Speaker
So therefore we have to get really creative now. And I think that's really fun. I like that. I think that is very cool, especially like, I mean, and it definitely shows their history with like arcade games. Cause most arcade games are only one or two buttons or they're just like a joystick and a button. Yeah. So like, and all of those are like super fun and cool and people still even get super immersed with like just general arcade games.
00:13:04
Speaker
Like in Providence, I went to school in Rhode Island. So for backstory, for anyone who gives a shit. Like the two people that give a shit. You're welcome. Now you know where I went to school in Rhode Island. Good luck figuring out where. But in Providence, there was the Barcade. And it was just like,
00:13:30
Speaker
Wait, was it like a bar? It's a bar and a huge ass arcade. So we have barcades here, but there's only like a couple that I know of and they're not huge. There's one in Jersey City and there's one in Newark. I've been to both. So this one was like, I mean, it was a good size and it was like,
00:13:51
Speaker
It was bouncing. It was packed to the gills. Like almost every night people would line up and it was just like this huge thing. Cause it's got, well now it has like the nostalgia element. But it's also just, it's a lot of fun. Like I feel like arcade games are so timeless because everyone can play them. Yeah. There's not a lot of like complicated. One of the things that I always end up getting messed up with is when I pick up a new game,
00:14:20
Speaker
having to learn the layout of the buttons and what does what, you know, even within Sonic games. If I play Sonic Colors on the Switch and then I switch to Sonic Frontiers, the thing that makes you go faster is a different button. So it's confusing. That was me with the LEGO games.
00:14:42
Speaker
It's because I'm a child. But for like pretty much almost all the LEGO games that I ever played, like your Star Wars, your Batman, like the first Batman, and then playing any of the other Batman ones. Because I'm not totally a child. I'm just mostly and some things timed out. But and like your first Harry Potter and your Indiana Jones, they all had the same controls.
00:15:10
Speaker
And then recently I just hopped into like the Lego Harry Potter, like the second half. And some of the controls are different. And it almost made me like hate the game. Cause I was like, this isn't what I was just doing my whole life. Like, why do I now have to hit B to dig? I always hit A. So it's super weird. It gets weird. I, and I, I.
00:15:37
Speaker
I understand why they would move things around and make adjustments, but then it's also like, well, I spent so long getting used to this thing.
00:15:51
Speaker
Mario Party versus like a Mario Kart. Like they're two very differently settings. Oh, yeah. This is like one of them is driving and the other one is like, you know, you're running around or doing minigames or whatever. So like that kind of control difference. I'm like, yeah, that's fine. But I guess when it's just like one franchise or it's all the same thing, I'm just like, I guess thrown off if you change it on me. But again, that's why like arcade games are so great because it's like everybody essentially knows how to play Pac-Man when you walk up there.
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. Because it's the same as it's always been, which is great. But yeah, I think that's cool that they just built Mr. Needlenose with one button, essentially. That's pretty cool. You might think it's cool, but I have some information that might say the Sega thought differently.
00:16:43
Speaker
See, the Sega of America CEO, Michael Katz, was certain that Sonic the Hedgehog would not be popular with American children. Something that you think would matter, but because he had done so poorly pushing the genesis to American audiences with catchphrases like, Genesis does what Nintendon't, he was let go and replaced by someone who would hopefully have better sense than base a marketing campaign around a bad pun.
Sega's Marketing Missteps
00:17:10
Speaker
Now, hopefully, is the operative word in that statement because at the same time, Sega was pushing their Genesis in America, the same system was marketed as the Mega Drive in the rest of the world, and in England in particular, it was advertised with incredibly sexual innuendo. One of the most famous adverts read, the more you play with it, the harder it gets, and features a hand holding a joystick in a very suggestive manner.
00:17:40
Speaker
That same advertisement goes on to describe the scenario. You sit there, eyes glued to the writhing arcade-quality graphics, pulling and squeezing your knob. Now you're breathing heavily over the digital stereo sound. Now you're shooting all over the place, but it's no use. Game over.
00:17:58
Speaker
I feel like attacked. I really hate that. This is how they were choosing to advertise. So you have in England that were going like incredibly sexual. And then in America, they were doing bad puns. And I feel like that they just didn't know what they what to do. I mean, the games were new, you know, like this type of thing. It's also like they clearly don't know what their demographic is. Yes. I mean,
00:18:27
Speaker
I think the sexual innuendo probably, you could totally do that now. No problem. I think it was a little confusing back in the day. I think if that was put on Twitter by Sega or something, or Genesis, then it would pass. But trying to make a legitimate ad off of that, I don't think that would work today.
00:18:53
Speaker
And I could be wrong cause maybe I'm not as much of a gamer girl as I think I am, but I don't know. I don't think that would, I don't think that would work cause it's also like, it's very male centric. Well, yeah, absolutely. And I don't, just because we're talking about the early days of gaming, I don't know if you've ever been inclined to do so, but I really hope you do.
00:19:16
Speaker
Go on to YouTube and look for Bill O'Reilly covering the Nintendo for the very first time because it is so funny. No one knows what Mario is or what Nintendo is and it's just fascinating to watch.
00:19:38
Speaker
Now, debuting in 1991 as a pack-in game for the Sega Genesis, Sonic's speed, innovative platforming, and catchy as hell music brought a dynamic new
Sonic's TV Success and Star Voice Actors
00:19:48
Speaker
method of gaming to home consoles, making Sonic a household name. The massive success led to Sega of America partnering with Deek Animation City to produce two TV shows simultaneously, Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog, better known as SatAM. This is where, now SatAM is Saturday,
00:20:09
Speaker
Morning, that's all it stands for. Okay, I was gonna say. I feel like I should clarify that. Thank you for the photo. This is where the writing on this episode becomes difficult to manage because the story of how Sonic ended up with two different shows at the same time with two wildly different tones is fascinating in and of itself. But there are so many other rabbit holes to fall down and we haven't even reached the main topic.
00:20:34
Speaker
For instance, the voice actor for Winnie the Pooh was also the voice actor for Dr. Robotnik on one of these shows. But musician John William Baldry, who toured with the Rolling Stones and the Beatles, as well as being in bands with Elton John and Rod Stewart, voiced the same character on another show. It's just wild the way that they got different people in here. They really split everything in half.
00:20:59
Speaker
or like into two because it's like you have the the two weird advertising things and then you have two totally different shows but it's all for the same thing the idea i think was we'll just cast a wide net and we will get what we can get you know what i mean we'll get as many people as we can into it because one of these things will will will hit it off i as a kid was a big fan of adventures of sonic the hedgehog
00:21:27
Speaker
I liked it. It was a dumb show where it was just Sonic running around and fighting against Dr. Robotnik and his two little henchmen, and I was great. I loved it. It's silly, and there's nothing to it. The Saturday morning cartoon show, though, was very dark, in terms of tone. Dr. Robotnik had already taken over the world, and it was Sonic and his team fighting against that, right?
00:21:56
Speaker
So I think they were just trying, what if one catches on? Well, that's what we'll go with, right? Okay. So it's also interesting is like the actor who played Steve Urkel on the hit sitcom Family Matters portrayed Sonic on both of those shows, which is just another little bit of... Really? Yeah. He was the voice of Sonic for a long time. Oh, wow. Good for him.
00:22:22
Speaker
But perhaps my favorite piece of trivia, and I'm willing to bet yours as well, is that Dr. Frankenfurter himself, Tim Curry, played King Acorn on the Saturday morning cartoon show. They got Tim fucking Curry to be in the Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon. I'm going to cry. I love Tim Curry's song.
00:22:44
Speaker
I do too. And when I read that, I was like, no fucking way. I need to see this. I love, okay. I love Tim Curry so much. Like more than someone probably should. I just find him so wholesome and so good and delightful. And he's just, he's so culty.
00:23:13
Speaker
in the best way. This man is a cult classic and it's fantastic. Also, this is a quick side note before we go any further. The fact that Muppet Treasure Island is number 10 on his list of movies and TVs
00:23:37
Speaker
That is what got me, like I loved him in that movie. I'm sorry, but that should be like at the top. That should be before Home Alone 2. Oh yeah, I forgot he was in Home Alone 2. And Clue should be number one. That's my personal opinion, but my personal opinion is strong.
00:23:56
Speaker
The proliferation of Sonic across multiple media would find the blue blur, gracing many comic books at the same time as well. So we got two cartoon shows, and now we got a bunch of comic books. And each iteration would have their own take on the character, like a Japanese manga that followed a hedgehog named Nikki that could turn into the superhero Sonic the Hedgehog, even though he was unaware of this transformation and believes that the hero is someone else.
00:24:21
Speaker
Chasing the American market, Sega would license out their character to Archie Comics, famous for publishing Archie, Betty and Veronica, Josie and the Pussycats, and Sabrina the Teenage Witch. Having only the bare bones from the games to create a story, Archie was forced to rely on the cartoon shows, and as Paul Castiglio, former editor of Archie, states,
00:24:42
Speaker
In the beginning, Sega instructed our editorial team to reflect the art and story styles of the syndicated series, but it soon became apparent from fan reaction that the Saturday morning series was the one striking a nerve. The comic soon followed suit with a mix of the two styles, but a heavier emphasis on the dramatic.
00:24:59
Speaker
As the comic series and the animated shows were simultaneously developed, the tight advanced scheduling of the comic industry kept us from keeping up with the last-minute changes made to the shows. This resulted in Sally being printed in various color schemes that didn't match her TV counterpart, as well as Rotor being referred to as Boomer. So basically, they were doing everything they could to sort of match the darker tone because that's the one that was hitting it off American audiences.
00:25:26
Speaker
So now Archie Comics is publishing Sonic the Hedgehog and following the cartoon series being produced at the same time. But any guiding principles outside of just make it more like the shows didn't exist. And this is where I think it's important to discuss the breakdown between Sega and Sega of America.
00:25:43
Speaker
We already know about the difficulty the Genesis had in making any headway against the Nintendo in America and how Michael Katz was replaced when they weren't performing well, but it goes much deeper than that. Next to no information about the story of Sonic the Hedgehog was relayed to Sega of America before its release, and what was made was so contradictory that there was no brand cohesion.
The Sonic Bible: Attempt to Unify Storylines
00:26:03
Speaker
This meant that the company would have only the basics of gameplay and character designs to craft a story that was marketable.
00:26:11
Speaker
Thus, Sega of America decided to create a Sonic Bible to detail what they believed was the way forward with the story of Sonic the Hedgehog. Three different versions of this document have been released, and it's interesting to see just how they change as they're revised. The first document created was around 13 pages in length in detail Sonic's history. Sunny Hedgehog, that's his name in this, Sunny, was born on- His name is Sunny?
00:26:38
Speaker
According to this Bible, this is not what they go with, but this is the first version of this. No wonder they made like a dark dramatic show. He sounds like he's like a cousin of the Sopranos. So Sonny Hedgehog was born on earth in the early 21st century in the town of Hardly, Nebraska, population 1226. He and his mother and five sisters live underneath a scraggly hedge beside the local burger joint.
00:27:03
Speaker
and subsist on burger scraps, milkshakes, and the occasional slug or bug that crawls their way. They are a poor and happy family." Now, the document continues to describe how Sunny's father died due to toxic waste, Sunny's pranking of others by pretending to be a bowling ball, and how he hangs out at a local quilting circle to hear the latest gossip. Okay, well, the father death is not as cute. But the other stuff is a bit goofy.
00:27:32
Speaker
The ways in which they just go in whatever direction and just shove it all together is interesting to me. I love that his hobbies are just pretending to be a ball, hanging out at the senior center, and then grieving the loss of his toxic waste father. When he leaves home in hopes of earning an Olympic gold medal, he befriends Dr. Ovi Contober, who would quickly become a father figure to him.
00:28:01
Speaker
And this doctor would lead a team of researchers on a project meant to restore Earth to its former glory until his funding was cut and he was forced to continue his research under a radioactive dumping site. Wanting to use the chaos emeralds, which were emeralds infused with pure evil to reverse the effects of manmade industrialization, he enlists Sonny to help him. When Sonny eventually breaks the sound barrier on a treadmill, his normally brown quills turn blue and he is nicknamed Sonic.
00:28:31
Speaker
Sometime later, a bolt of radiation strikes one of Dr. Kintober's machines and releases all of the evil from the Chaos Emeralds into Dr. Kintober, fusing him with evil and a hard-boiled egg that he had been eating as a snack at the time. I was going to say, is he going to be Dr. Eggman? The doctors were born as Dr. Robotnik, which is the American name for Dr. Eggman.
00:28:54
Speaker
See, in Japan, they had his name as Dr. Eggman, but because they weren't giving any information to America, they had to come up with what they wanted to call him. So they called him Dr. Rabat. Now, I don't know if I missed it. I don't think I did, though. Is there a reason they're not giving any information to their brother company, essentially?
00:29:15
Speaker
No, just that they just didn't think it mattered, I don't think. They were like, we're working on a product. You don't need to know all of the weird stuff that we've come up beforehand. And there's just a breakdown in communication. These two companies, even though they're part of one mega company, I think that they were just being run so entirely differently that they didn't see each other necessarily as
00:29:45
Speaker
together. Yeah. That's so odd to me, but I guess it's because now it's like, it's so universally globalized, like how we see Sonic, you know? Okay. Well, and we're going to get into a little bit of, especially for, uh, when we go over this episode and next episode, we're going to get into why things are a little bit more streamlined than they used to be.
00:30:11
Speaker
right okay so in the next version of this document sonic's history has changed and he's instead an orphan hedgehog who lives on the planet mobius with his animal friends sally acorn johnny lightfoot joe sushi porker luis flicky and tux now almost all of these characters and even the name of the planet would later be used in the saturday morning cartoon show and thus archie's sonic the hedgehog comic
00:30:36
Speaker
Sonic in this version would accidentally spin dash into Dr. Kintoba's lab and decided to hang out because it's cool. Essentially the same accident plays out and Kintoba becomes Dr. Robotnik again in this version of things. Okay, so I just want to make sure I have it right. So yeah, anything like Acorn Palace and Sunny Slash. Well, I guess he's Sonic at this point.
00:31:01
Speaker
And then Robotnik is all America, but then Egghead and like, I'm assuming like all the other normal characters that I might know are Japan. Yep. So essentially where we are in this story is right around the first Sonic the Hedgehog game. And really the only characters that are in it are Sonic the Hedgehog and Dr. Eggman.
00:31:29
Speaker
Japan's version of events is Sonic is kind of bored and he thinks fighting against Eggman is fun and Eggman is a genius Evil guy who likes to kidnap animals and Sonic frees them. That's about it for the story and that's part of why America was like we're gonna come up with our own version of it and they start introducing all of these other characters and
00:31:54
Speaker
And this is all behind the scenes. None of this is necessarily released to the public, except for some of the names get added as we go into the cartoon shows. And as we go into when they release the game, they call Eggman Robotnik. And that's about it. OK.
00:32:16
Speaker
Sega of America eventually scrapped all of these concepts in favor of the broad backstory detailed in the games, but these elements were recycled for several different properties down the line. The UK version of Sonic decided to adopt the Second Bible as the backstory for all of their Sonic-related media. So Fleetway's Sonic the Comic uses the story from this almost entirely. So this means that by 1993, just two years after his debut, there was a loose
00:32:46
Speaker
storyline in the handful of games produced by Sega, which itself is slightly confusing since some are canon and some aren't, two different TV shows that follow their own continuities separate from each other and the games, a manga that ditches absolutely everything that came before it, and a British comic book based on the American series Bible that was eventually abandoned
00:33:09
Speaker
as well as a comic book published by Archie that is loosely based off of one of those TV shows.
Conflicting Sonic Continuities
00:33:15
Speaker
That is where we are in 1993 with Sonic as a franchise. Almost everything contradicts everything else. Yeah, and it just seems like people keep adding new stuff and basing it off of the second degree of Sonic to the third degree.
00:33:37
Speaker
So it feels very confused. Now, is the UK's Sonic, is that also like a Sega company still? It's licensed, it's Fleetway put it out, licensed by Sega. Okay. So all of these, all of this stuff is going to be licensed by Sega. The two cartoon shows are put out by Deek, Deek Animation or Deek Entertainment. I forget what whatever it's called. There's the Archie comics.
00:34:05
Speaker
licensed from Sega. There's the Fleetway Comics license from Sega and then there I don't know who produced the manga but that's also licensed from Sega. So all of this is coming directly from them but with like no real oversight. And then the final question just to make sure I have my timeline right. Has the game come out yet?
00:34:27
Speaker
This is two years after the first game came out. So you get the game and it becomes a massive hit. And so they decide, it is wild how much of a hit. Okay, I thought it came out, but then I was like, wait a minute. What if this is all just crazy prep for this really simple game? No, they didn't. But okay, no, that makes a lot more sense. Are they starting to make a second game at this point?
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think at this point, Sonic 2 had already come out because they had already introduced, yeah, they'd already introduced Tails into the cartoon show. Oh, love Tails. He's so cute. No baby. So Archie's licensed Sonic the Hedgehog comics began with a four-issue miniseries in late 1992 that would be followed up by one of the longest-running comic book based on a video game and the longest-running franchise comic book.
00:35:24
Speaker
lasting over 290 issues of the main series and with dozens of spin-off comics focusing on different parts of the new universe that they were building and different characters, Sonic the Hedgehog was an immense success that grew far beyond what the games were doing at that time. This comic book is for most people, when you talk about the lore of Sonic the Hedgehog,
00:35:51
Speaker
you're going to eventually come up to what this comic book did. So taking its cue from the Saturday morning cartoon version of the show, Sonic would team with the not whole freedom fighters to fight Dr. Ivo Robotnik. Now these freedom fighters would be made up of various characters like Sally Acorn, the princess of the former kingdom that was overthrown by Robotnik, as well as a few others.
00:36:17
Speaker
Sonic himself would be changed from the official Japanese portrayal who only fought against Eggman for fun into a freedom fighter with a deep sense of duty and important ties to his family and friends.
00:36:29
Speaker
Throughout the series, Sonic would even have multiple love interests and engage in several relationships. Sometimes with Sally Acorn, for long periods these would be building. And that's something that is expressly forbidden in the games, at least up until this point. Sonic had to be the lone cool character. So therefore you can't have a girlfriend.
00:36:55
Speaker
So at the beginning of the series, the year was 3235 and Sonic had been living on the planet Mobius, an alternate future reality of Earth. In fact, going by the current calendar, it would be the year 14,015 AD. But they've just like renumbered. So this is like a far future that they've decided to start calling Mobius. That's why humans look a little wonky and some of the animal characters
00:37:25
Speaker
have grown to be more like humans. It's just because there's been a lot of changes. Yeah. They're really going in on lore. Oh, this comic book series has so much. When I got into Sonic as an adult, I got into it through the Archie comics.
00:37:46
Speaker
And it was confusing. And that was one of the things I liked about it. Is that it was confusing. There was always something new to pull from. I was like, OK, wait, how did this happen? So then I would do some research into that, buy more comics to get into it. And then I would be introduced to one of my favorite characters was like this digital fox thing named Nicole.
00:38:10
Speaker
And it was so cool. And that's not in the games. And there was no explanation when I first picked up the book. Where did this come from? As time would move forward, several characters and elements from the games would be introduced, such as Knuckles the Echidna, to follow a tweaked version of the games. This was the status quo for 247 issues of the original series, before the continuity was changed to bring them more in line with the video game.
00:38:38
Speaker
counterparts. So for 247 issues of the mainline Sonic the Hedgehog series, they just kind of did whatever. And this tweaking and slight reboot of the series was actually the original intention for writing this episode.
00:38:52
Speaker
But there turns out to be an insane amount of information that is far too interesting to not at least comb through. So we're going to hold off on talking about that until another episode. What's important to know, though, is that the reboot comes off of several behind the scenes issues that stem from problems with Sega, Archie, and one particularly infamous writer named Ken Penders.
Ken Penders' Influence on Sonic Comics
00:39:15
Speaker
OK.
00:39:17
Speaker
Kenneth W. Penders II started his run early in the Archie universe, making his debut in Sonic the Hedgehog number 11. From there forward, Ken was the main writer and architect of the series, all the way up through issue 159. And the mini spinoffs and one shots, those are usually written by him. Not all of them, but most of them.
00:39:40
Speaker
In particular, Kin seemed to have an intense interest in the Echidna characters that were introduced to fill in some of the backstory of this new world, going so far as to write several Knuckles the Echidna spinoffs. While Sonic was a comic book predominantly written by Penders, it was helmed by multiple writers. The sister series, Knuckles the Echidna, however, was entirely plotted by Penders and was heavily serialized to slowly unravel the secret origins of Knuckles and the Echidna race.
00:40:10
Speaker
So we're going to get much more into Pinder's obsession with the echidnas in the follow up to this episode, but it's important to note that they were extremely fucking weird. Okay. Like, what do you mean by weird? Just like that they were like, they're from a different planet. Look how crazy, or is it just like, Oh, this is weird. Why is an adult man writing about this kind of thing?
00:40:36
Speaker
Well, I'm gonna give you several examples of some of the weirdness. Okay, I guess I'm at, is it wholesome weird or is it like a bit cringy weird? A bit cringy. Okay. Thank you for preparing me. Yes. Because sometimes we'll talk about things and much like bird poison, it'll be way out of left field and I'm like, okay. I'm glad I'm aware now.
00:41:05
Speaker
several of the story arcs would try to cover the subject of fascism. Oh, okay. And you still surprise me somehow.
00:41:18
Speaker
This led to the infamous rewording of Martin Neemuller's First They Came poem. I don't know if you know that poem. Most people do. Yeah, they first came for like the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I didn't do anything. And then eventually they come for him, but there was no one there to stand there for him. So quoting from issue 22 of Knuckles the Echidna,
00:41:44
Speaker
During Dr. Robotnik's takeover through roboticization, the swap bots came for the foxes and I did not speak up because I was not a fox. Then they came for the rabbits and I did not speak up because I was not a rabbit. Then they came for the squirrels and I did not speak up because I was not a squirrel. Then they came for the hedgehogs and I did not speak up because I was an echidna. Then they came for me and by that time nobody was left to speak up.
00:42:14
Speaker
And I can't like, okay, I see what you're going for.
00:42:21
Speaker
But I think it might be a good one. This is not nearly as impactful as the original piece. And you could argue, oh, but it's for the younger kids or something to understand the story of what it's being said. It's like, no. You don't need the rabbits and the squirrels to understand that.
00:42:51
Speaker
It's pretty clear from like I remember seeing that I think in like fifth grade. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you read it and you're like, that's very powerful. I am 12. I understand. Like it's not the most complicated thing to like comprehend.
00:43:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I think there are ways that you can incorporate this kind of thing into the comic without necessarily just doing the poem. Yeah, don't just plagiarize the poem. Don't just copy and paste and put whatever animals you prefer in there. Like maybe make it a long drawn out story of like Knuckles struggling to stand up for his friends, you know?
00:43:45
Speaker
Like, but also maybe just don't surprise a great poem. Very weird. I mean, it's very weird. Even weirder, shortly before this story, Penders wrote a comic about Charmy B's friend dying as a result of eating a lemon sundrop dandelion or LSD-laced hot dog.
00:44:11
Speaker
which led to the entire Chaotix team investigating a shady amusement park where they all accidentally overdose on LSD and cause havoc. These comics are wild compared to similar books aimed at pre-teen kids, so the question needs to be asked
00:44:30
Speaker
How did we get here? I feel like if you are going to have a little blue hedgehog and like a little chipmunk and a little fox and a little red echidna, I feel like there are a lot of other stories that you can tell with those before you get to LSD weird trip. Or fashion. Either one.
00:45:00
Speaker
They killed off a, I mean, they introduced the character to die, but they killed off a character at the beginning of the story in a pre-teen age story. This is for kids. Look, you can talk about drugs and you can talk about death, and that's great. I think it's weirder to
00:45:28
Speaker
have it be this lemon sundrop dandelion instead of just saying it's LSD. I think that's weirder. Look, I don't have kids. So I'm sure my opinion may or may not change when that eventually happens in my life. But I don't know. When I was a kid, I watched Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
00:45:57
Speaker
I mean, I love the movie. I think it's a lot of fun. I was not. The only thing that traumatized me about that movie wasn't the fact that they were like solving a murder or, you know, anything like that. It was more just the fact that the villain at the very end is really freaking creepy. Oh, yeah. Terrifying. Oh, he's so scary. He's bald and he's got huge stuff. Just watch it. I'm not going to explain. I'm getting myself the heebie jeebies. But like,
00:46:28
Speaker
They did it and they did it fine. They didn't make it super weird. They gave you a concept and like, I think what made it work was because there was like a human aspect to it. But I don't know. I think sometimes when you have like, I feel like this could work if it had the right background. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
00:46:56
Speaker
Like- This is a weird, I don't think any of these are bad ideas. No, I don't think they're bad ideas. I do, just because, I mean, look, I don't know a ton about Sonic. I don't know a ton about much of what we do unless I have to read something. Well, that's the fun. It is the fun of it. I'm a little newbie. I don't know how long I'll be able to hold that excuse, so I'm holding it.
00:47:26
Speaker
Um, but to me, I just associate like Sonic with the same energy as I do with like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Where it's just like a fun rom. They high five. Oh, we should talk about the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle comics. Oh God. I'm sure it's all sorts of cooked. Um. It's wise and violent. I'm sure. There's so much.
00:47:51
Speaker
But that's not what it is today because society changes things all the time. Sociology, crazy stuff. But yeah, I really associate Sonic with just like it's very light. You know, the craziest thing happening is maybe like an energy ball gets thrown at somebody, you know, not so much like someone's getting like stabbed or like shot or doing drugs. Like, I don't know.
00:48:20
Speaker
Some of that does happen in the games, even. It's just that I think that there's a bigger story written around it. And it's more like if you're sitting down to watch a, not a kid's anime, but like an anime that's more open for like teen audiences, you know? Yeah, an older audience.
00:48:48
Speaker
So there are like, you know, there are guns and there's death. And, but there's also, there's also just these like little fun creatures running around and talking about how they like chili dogs. Yeah. Well, I mean, that is, that is cowboy bebop, essentially. Okay. Oh, it's a, it's not as adult as cowboy bebop. Oh, okay. Well, I do love me some bebop. That's like the one show that I've, the one anime that I've seen.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yeah, the music in that is amazing. And the music in Sonic is amazing. Oh my God, this is such a side note. So we started watching Bebop because Max really wanted to watch it. And I was like, you know what? The only anime I guess I'd really ever seen was Speed Racer and a little bit of Dragon Ball when I was a kid. I was like, I'll give it a try.
00:49:46
Speaker
Those are very different. Yes. Well, I'm all over the place. But all my friends, I would say 90% of my friends like some kind of anime or multiple shows, like whichever. And I just could not get into it.
00:50:06
Speaker
Like everybody kept telling me about Bebop and I was like, you know what, I'll give it a try. And man, that theme song came on and I was like, I want to dance. And it became for like a month or two. It was like we would just play it in the car every time we would start driving. And it just gets you so hyped up to go grocery shopping. If anyone needs
00:50:30
Speaker
That's how I wake up Austin's sisters when they stay over. I either play that or the opening to Neon Genesis Evangelion. Yeah, if anyone needs to get hyped up before they go to the grocery store.
00:50:42
Speaker
Play the cowboy bebop theme song and you will get through that grocery store in 20 minutes. I guarantee you. You will be like jazz running through the deli aisle. It'll be great. I highly recommend it. 10 out of 10. I recommend it just as much as I recommend any Tim Curry film. Anyway. So originally the Sonic comics were helmed by Michael Gallagher and focused primarily on puns and silly fourth wall breaks.
00:51:12
Speaker
After Penders took over, he continued this trend before slowly pushing for a more serialized structure. Even when Penders was considered the main writer of Sonic, he was never the only writer on the series. With many different writers and artists coming and going, the series had a varied quality and style, but built off of the strange events from before to create newer and weirder stories. It wasn't until 1997 that the Knuckles spinoff was created and Penders was able to create a consistent and serialized tone for the series that he clearly wanted.
00:51:43
Speaker
From the beginning, teases of the future were shown to entice readers to stick around in the hopes that it would pay off. The entirety of the comic was broken into three-issue arcs, where every issue and arc would lead directly into the next, while keeping mysteries running as to how anything would be resolved. As his tenure would stretch on the books, Pinders began introducing dozens upon dozens of characters like Sleuth Doggy Dog, a parody of Snoop Doggy Dog,
00:52:08
Speaker
or the unbelievably insane amount of echidna characters that are essentially knuckles but a girl or knuckles but with a beard. Knuckles with a beard? Give me a minute. I need to see this. So as Penders was going through and he was creating these characters, a lot of the time he would just be like, okay, now I need an echidna character that can be a previous guardian or something.
00:52:37
Speaker
It would just be knuckles, but then they would give him a beard or with a hat or, you know, things like that. Yeah. You know, that's so weird. Are we ever going to figure out why he loves these different knuckles like so much? This is so that's basically what I'm getting. Okay. It is because.
00:52:59
Speaker
he had the ability to start this series from scratch. He didn't have to follow anything about... They had nothing to tell him. They were just like, okay, do whatever you want with the character, as long as you keep it as... He was introduced in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, and you can do whatever you want with the character from there. Right.
00:53:27
Speaker
just write, and he was able to create a huge backstory and mythology around Knuckles that he couldn't ever do with Sonic. You can't do that with a character that you have limitations on writing. Yeah, that has like three different Bible things. Well, not even that. Sega is going to say, you can't make major changes to our character, but you can to Knuckles because they didn't care. They just created him.
00:53:55
Speaker
there's after his first game they were like okay that's probably all we're gonna do with it now they ended up doing a lot more with that character but originally they didn't have anything going they didn't they didn't have a story to go off of except for what they had just written so this guy's just high off of creative freedom right okay so the sonic universe was right for molding
00:54:19
Speaker
considering that there was very little story so early on this franchise history. With the introduction of the echidnas, Penders had a space where he could fill out that universe with basically no oversight, meaning he was free to change the tone of the series into something more in line with what he particularly liked, like Star Trek or Dungeons and Dragons. That's basically what he made the story into.
00:54:41
Speaker
This meant that there was a slight tonal irregularity with what the games and comics were putting out, and sometimes between issues of the comics themselves. For instance, Sonic's birth name was revealed to be Olgavi Maurice Hedgehog, and Penders convinced Archie to allow him to kill off Dr. Robotnik, the main antagonist of nearly every Sonic installment. So, he's just going wild on this series. Yeah.
00:55:09
Speaker
Now, I do know that the idea to kill off Robotnik is because the cartoon show ended, and most franchised comics like this, most like the license books based off of a property, don't live much past the cartoon that they're based on. So with the cartoon being canceled, they were like, we're probably going to be canceled soon. So they were like, yeah, why not kill off the bad guy? That'll be our main
00:55:38
Speaker
thing. We'll end the series here. Yeah, that's their big event. Right. But the comic was selling really well, so they decided to not end it here. Oh, okay. And this caused a bit of a problem when the comics had to adapt to Sonic Adventure, which featured Dr. Robotnik as one of the main villains. Penders still wanted Robotnik to remain dead, but writer Carl Wallers reintroduced an alternate universe counterpart named Robo Robotnik.
00:56:06
Speaker
This Robotnik had roboticized himself and traveled to the main Sonic universe after conquering his own. When his body was destroyed in a battle with Sonic, he transported his consciousness into a new, more advanced body and renamed himself Eggman. Eggman, finally! I was just about to say, I really don't like the Robotnik name. I think it's so boring.
00:56:28
Speaker
So I think it's fine. I don't really so in the in sonic adventure in the the game sonic adventure They wrote that dr. Robotnik's real name is dr. Robotnik. They liked that from the American But they only refer to him by that like once He prefers the name So he just goes by that
00:56:56
Speaker
So this allowed the comics to be able to use an Eggman character, firmly established the preferred name of Eggman, and finally adapt the Sonic Adventure game. This also had the side effect of making two distinct versions of Sonic's main nemesis and creating a very confusing backstory for a younger Derek to try to understand. Oh, because now there's two. Right, they killed off one. And then they made a robot.
00:57:23
Speaker
Right. But then he has like a body that's not really a robot body. And it's just he basically replaces the original bad guy, you know, and just becomes that bad guy. I'm totally realizing what would have helped little Derek. He just needed to listen to Mr. Roboto from the sticks. And that would essentially explain to you what this guy is.
00:57:47
Speaker
I mean, basically, I do know when I was first reading these books, I was like trying to get into like, okay, wait a minute. I don't understand the connections between this character and this character. And I kept reading like Robo Robotnik slash Eggman. And I was like, wait, I don't understand. How is this different from the original Robotnik?
00:58:06
Speaker
And then this took me forever, just one night reading and being like, wait, so they killed off this character and replaced him with basically the exact same character. Just like with a more confusing backstory. Exactly. That's exactly what they did. I love comics.
00:58:28
Speaker
Is there a time? So Pender's long run included more baffling moments that can really be included here, but I'll stick to some of the more egregious, like how he would consistently have Sally Acorn make out with Joffrey, or Jeffrey, sorry, Jeffrey St. John, a clear James Bond-esque character that is at least 20 or 21, while Sally was
Controversies in Sonic Comic Relationships
00:58:48
Speaker
15. That's weird.
00:58:50
Speaker
He followed this up in 2019 by stating on Twitter, the one story I couldn't tell was Sally losing her virginity to Jeffrey. Sonic may be fast, but Jeffrey was faster on the draw in that department. Oh, that's so weird. I don't know. There's something about like, I don't know. If the relationship is like,
00:59:12
Speaker
cutesy and stuff like I don't know like I think Sonic and the pink one were together at one point Amy and I'm like all this cute you know like but to me it's like I see that as like when fifth graders are dating on the playground and like they'll hug and it's like oh my god it's so cute I I can't picture animals or animal like characters
00:59:40
Speaker
getting down i just can't is weird and look if you're into it like that's good for you be into it on your own time please don't get paid to make story or self-publish on input i don't know i just i don't i would not want to read that personally i mean you don't have to not to shame anyone there is a there is a market out there for that kind of thing and i think that's fine maybe a kids comic is not that uh
01:00:10
Speaker
Not the place to tell that story. Yes, again, people like what you like. I don't I don't care what it is. That's fine. You can purchase whatever media fits you as long as it's like it's not a totally morally like fucked up thing. But yeah, for a kids comic, because at the end of the day, this is a comic for kids. Adults can still enjoy it. And that's fine.
01:00:40
Speaker
But like, why? This is so weird. So, Penders... Penders is a weird person. And after that tweet caught some attention, he began arguing about the age of consent on planet Mobius and how if Jeffrey didn't sleep with Sally, then he would have turned to the kingdom's red light district.
01:01:02
Speaker
Sexual misconduct did not stop here, as in Sonic 150 and 151, the evil anti-Sonic posed as the real Sonic and wooed Sally's best friend, Bunny. It is heavily implied in the comic that the two slept together while Bunny believed herself to be with the real Sonic, which you would understand that as being, you know, assault. You know what? This is all becoming very, like,
01:01:30
Speaker
the gross part of 80s comedies. That's I think where we find, you know, I don't know. I think that's what's actually making me like uncomfortable. Yeah. It really is like one, the age difference. And also the fact that this person is like, oh, but like it had to be like this child. If it wasn't this child, you'd have to go to the red like district. And it's like, okay, well, at least there's probably like
01:01:58
Speaker
at least the sex workers there are probably like adults. I'd hope, unless you world built this to be like totally cooked. And also, that's fine. Yeah. Go to the red light district. That's fine. We're happy with that. Yeah. That's okay. I would have preferred that, honestly.
01:02:18
Speaker
The fact that that is seen as like a negative alternative is also a very weird thing to throw out. Exactly. That's just a positive consensual business agreement at anything. Like in this day and age. So Penders would go on to describe his understanding of the character, especially in relationship to women, after reflecting on the death and resurrection of Princess Sally by stating, while I no longer believe Sally should be killed off, I'm no longer certain if Sonic is a one girl guy.
01:02:48
Speaker
When you stop and think how Sega looks at the character, he's all ego and attitude. He thinks about number one, he can accept Tails because Tails is the subordinate junior assistant to his main act. He'd consider Sally nothing more than a fun to be with every now and then, if that, and a drag the rest of the time. His attitude towards Sally and females in general, and probably much like that MTV, sorry, is probably much like that MTV character in the movie She's All That.
01:03:17
Speaker
This is hard to read because he makes a lot of typos and I'm just copying and pasting what he wrote. The way he ditches, this is him again. The way he ditches the girl is so sonic like. And then he puts in quotes. You think all I want to do is spend my life with you? That's cool and all, but I got to go fight Robotnik. Later, babe.
01:03:37
Speaker
And then he writes, I know I'm going to get into a lot of disagreement with people over this, but I've yet to hear anyone ever say, you know, he can be such an arrogant jerk, but he's really quite lovable under all that. They usually stop the comment after the word jerk. People who are conceited and full of themselves generally aren't likable. Check out most entertainers and athletes as my prime example.
01:03:59
Speaker
There are exceptions, but there are few and far between. And I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of being arrogant if I dare disagree with anyone's opinion or not answer their IM or email. It has nothing at all to do with arrogance and everything to do with lack of time. Which I like that dig in there at the end, be like, hey, look, I'm not arrogant, okay? I got other stuff I gotta do. It's just- If that many people are telling you that you're arrogant,
01:04:31
Speaker
I don't think there's a problem. And this is gonna get more difficult for us as we go through this because it's easy to dunk on him and talk about some of the bad things that he did or the negative outcomes of things that he did as we will get into on another episode. But I don't disagree with him on
01:05:00
Speaker
the reasons for doing those things. I think, I think at the end of the day, the things that he is writing are, I think they would have passed if it was for an adult audience. Oh, yeah. Because it's not. And I think that's like, that's the main problem. Like, I probably wouldn't be so heated about like,
01:05:29
Speaker
about squirrels having sex with other species. If I knew that it was adult content and not children content,
01:05:43
Speaker
Primarily like primarily children. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, I I understand what you're saying. Because again, like like look I'm an adult that reads comics. I am aware like that adults can read comics and like you read Sonic and you're an adult and that's cool. And that's great. We love Sonic. We intentionally got you a Sonic Lego because we support your love of Sonic. And like it's cool if you as an adult
01:06:13
Speaker
like, you know, possibly these funky or like LSD trips of a thing. It's just odd that it wasn't advertised to the adult. I just think that's a bit funky. And like, maybe I'm saying that just because maybe there are some child like parts of it. And I because I just haven't read it.
01:06:43
Speaker
But it just seems like a lot of these like funky, weird, more adult things are coming up and then like, it's a fun, lighthearted adventure. And so I don't know, it's just a bit. So this is where, so the breakdown here is between Penders and pretty much everyone else on what the tone
01:07:12
Speaker
of the book should be. That's that's kind of where I see because like Archie like first up until like 2015 Archie like never touched more adult material. That's the other thing too. That one is also definitely just like a light romp of a comic series and then like you know the CW show obviously like
01:07:37
Speaker
took a heavy... Well, and that spins out of that 2015 shift. Exactly. That definitely is a huge tonal shift. But again, they had that tone from the beginning that this was going to be like...
01:07:55
Speaker
you know, a seedy twist on Archie. You know, it just has the characters of Archie. Right, right. And that was pretty clear from the get go of that show being made. And I know that there are some like comic series that are similar to that. But like, I'm assuming that that will get because it wasn't 2015. So that didn't happen yet. Like, it's still like light hearted, like beach party fun for
01:08:25
Speaker
Archie yeah, so one of one of my teachers when I was in school was Fernando Ruiz and at this time Fernando was working at Archie and I have like I have one of his Archie comics like one of the pages on my wall and it's it's that Dan DiCarlo style of like when you think of Archie it's generally the first thing you think of that style of yeah, and it's you know, the the kids in high school having little like
01:08:55
Speaker
hijinks and Archie's got two dates to the prom kind of a thing. That's what's going on in the rest of the Archie universe, like the rest of the things being published at the time. And that I think is more of the tone that they were wanting to go with, with this
01:09:15
Speaker
this comic book. Yeah, bring in some of the darker elements of the Saturday morning cartoon show, but that's still a Saturday morning cartoon show. It has dark elements, but it's still for kids and it's still written with that lighthearted attitude. Yeah, absolutely. You can have a freedom fighters going out and fighting against the bad guy and you can still write it in a way that is
01:09:43
Speaker
fun and appealing to kids that doesn't have LSD and weird sexual assault in it. You know, okay, maybe the, what this guy is writing gives me the Ren and Stimpy vibes and that's. And I will also, I have, I would, I would. And I think that's why I'm comfy about it. Cause it gives me those vibes. I would wager he's a fan.
01:10:11
Speaker
because also if you see his artwork, there is, he had some weird details that I think make his characters look weird and uncanny, but they would fit right at home in like a Ren and Stimpy style. And that guy, like I'm pretty sure the guy who worked for Ren and Stimpy, like the artist for that was like, he was a bit of like a creepo, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I think you and I talked about this once before. I think so.
01:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, accused by two former artists of grooming and sexually abusing them in the late 1990s when they were teenagers. He apologized for his behavior. If I remember right, don't quote me on this. I think he would find younger lady artists and be like, oh my gosh, let me workshop with you and all this stuff. And then it would get really weird.
01:11:11
Speaker
you know, he entices them with like success in the art industry, but then just is like, it's very weird.
01:11:22
Speaker
I just did a brief reading of the things that he was accused of and the apology that he gave out. And you know what? I'm just going to go ahead and say, fuck this guy. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how I walked away from it, too. But you could see that in his art, just kind of like how he it's weird how you can kind of see people's brains through like what they create.
01:11:51
Speaker
Um, so that makes me uncomfortable because I like stuff. I like that weird disconnect with like the incredible. So when I say that the sonic thing makes me uncomfortable, um, it's because it's still within that sonic universe. But if you were to take it and you were like, I'm going to make an adult cartoon that plays off of sort of the ren and Stimpy vibe. I would be like, yeah, sure. I'm down for this. I like that kind of thing because there's that disconnect, that juxtaposition of, uh, complete irreverence.
01:12:21
Speaker
to social norms with a style usually associated with kids. And I think that's fine and fun. Yeah, well, because again, like you can have adult cartoons. I mean, like there's plenty of them. Yeah. It's more of like when you look at Ren and Stimpy as like a whole, you know, it's the art style plus
01:12:50
Speaker
Mainly, what are they doing? Like, you know, well, the thing that, the thing that for Ren and Stimpy in particular, that was, I think is a good move is they later, because they was originally for kids. Exactly. That's a bad idea.
01:13:08
Speaker
But they did later make an adult version of the show. And that is more like, perfect. I am on board for that. But like the sort of Nickelodeon, let's all sit around and watch it. Maybe not the best move for this type of thing. Well, that's what I'm saying. We're on the same page. We're just using different words.
01:13:37
Speaker
Yes. So as other writers would come into the fray, including fan favorite Ian Flynn, one of my favorite Sonic writers, they would attempt to change some of the strange romance plots or advance the comic closer to the game's continuity. This unfortunately upset Penders. He railed against one major story arc by saying that it was written to undermine his work and the moment he was able to follow up on his story, he did everything he could to make it as though that particular version never happened.
Penders' Resistance to Changes
01:14:08
Speaker
And this is the other side of Penders, one who wanted to be in control of the entirety of the content. So we've already seen that with the Knuckles thing. He wants to be able to create his own mythology, his own world. But the flip side of that is that means he gets really pissed off when people play with what he sees as his characters. He doesn't want to share. He got spoiled.
01:14:34
Speaker
When he found out Ben Hurst was in talks with Sega about creating a Sonic movie, he called Hurt to discuss the details. Ben was one of the writers for the Sonic Sat AM show, and he offered to bring Penders on board the proposed project. Shortly after, Penders went to Sega and convinced them it was a way for Hurst to get paid to develop their product, and then announced on his message board that Ben Hurst doesn't know how movies are made in Hollywood.
01:15:03
Speaker
So he got this deal just thrown out. This guy was trying to make a movie with Sonic the Hedgehog and Penders wanted to be involved solely to shut it down. And here's why. Penders would go on to pitch his own concept for a movie in September of 2003. His movie titled Sonic Armageddon would include Mobius being destroyed and many of the cast would have had major redesigns.
01:15:34
Speaker
Absolutely nothing came of this, but according to Penders, it is only because of massive corporate upheaval. Ultimately though, Penders cites Sonic Armageddon's possible creation as the reason he left the Sonic comics behind. This is possibly true, as he was also becoming very annoyed with Sega's lack of reference material for upcoming games that needed to be tied into the regular comic series. So here's a moment where I'm actually going to, I'm gonna send you a YouTube link
01:16:04
Speaker
Okay. To the, uh, Sonic Armageddon, um, the movie pitch. Okay. And I'm just, I'm just going to have you watch this. Okay. Okay.
01:16:23
Speaker
They said it was just a video game, but I knew better. After all, my dad's job was to search for life on other planets. Although many versions of the events he witnessed made their way out into the media, that was just security doing its job. Like who could keep a secret that big, right? Anyway, this is what my dad said really happened.
01:16:54
Speaker
That was like, there was nothing there. That's the proof of concept. That is what Penders put together to show the representatives at Sega. That is, that's, I'm sorry, but that's like a joke. I feel like I'm such, I am the asshole of the podcast today. But like, you're a professional person. If you've been, first off,
01:17:22
Speaker
you've been doing comics for so long. So like, you would think that like, I don't know, maybe the like screenplay or your draft would be a little neater. I don't know, not to be like, I can't, I don't work in the film industry. So maybe I'm being picky for no reason or I'm being picky now because I've just heard some unfavorable things about this person.
01:17:53
Speaker
But like, your pitch is gonna be like, oh, Sonic finds his birthday gift from who the fuck knows Uncle Chuck and goes riding on his little hoverboard only to be shot out and flying into some classic green screen trees. What is that?
01:18:13
Speaker
Where's the Armageddon? There is concept art that is a little bit, I wouldn't say it's better, but it gets more into what a story would be, right? It shows you kind of more of what his concept is, which you would think would be in the proof of concept. And in the whole first half, it's like these kids playing Sonic, and it's just like, my dad works for the government.
01:18:42
Speaker
he's looking for like other life on like other universes and they come through our media. But it's like there is not once where you hint really that like unless that was him getting shot off his hoverboard but like you would think it would be more of like he phases like into something
01:19:08
Speaker
you know, he gets beamed up or something. Not just like... There would be something more substantial to the story. And in fairness to Penders, he is someone like, you know, it's not like he only ever worked on Sonic. He worked for Marvel and DC, you know, did stuff with different people. He also, I believe, was like, did storyboard artwork on King of the Hill, which is one of my favorite shows. Yeah. And so he has some...
01:19:38
Speaker
It's just that I think, I don't know, this was not necessarily a good showing. And I think maybe he's got a blind spot when it comes to this stuff. Maybe this isn't his strong suit. Maybe. I trust the fact that he can be a very credible person if it comes to comics, because he has worked with so many for a while. Right. But I don't know.
01:20:08
Speaker
It's like saying an author of novels can direct a movie. There are different mediums and just because you really like Sonic or you really like the creative freedom you have working with a specific character in Sonic, that does not mean
01:20:33
Speaker
Like, there is always someone above you. Always. It doesn't matter. Like, Kevin Feige probably has somebody above him. Like, and we don't know it. You know? There's always someone better than the next person or who knows more than the next person. And I feel a little bad for this man that I feel like this is probably the day he learned that someone knows more about Sonic than he does.
01:21:03
Speaker
Cause, whoo. This is, it's, it's a little wild. And this isn't the only time that Penders would focus on Hollywood. Uh, like he created a political drama called the Republic that never really made it past the pilot. And, um, he also tried to get a movie adaptation of his indie comic, The Lost Ones made, but that was canceled after one issue.
01:21:27
Speaker
that comic book. And the feature film has as of May 2022, never even finished a demo reel. Like there's, he's been working on this thing for years. And that's fine. You can take your time working on things. A lot of creative projects take a very long time to get going. Absolutely. And I mean, like, man, again, I feel like I'm being such an asshole, but like, I also don't know if this man anything.
01:21:53
Speaker
But I want everybody to achieve their dreams and I don't know this man's actual dreams if it is somehow to make it in Hollywood I hope if he's a decent person that he gets what he wishes for It sounds like it's questionable If he's a decent person, I don't fully know it right now What a time but it just
01:22:19
Speaker
I don't know. Sometimes you just got a stick to what you're good at. You can find the Republic, the pilot, that he directed online. Okay. And it is not good. It's great for me to watch and have a good time watching it, but it's not like selling it as a political drama is perhaps the wrong move. It feels like watching The Room.
01:22:48
Speaker
Like that's the vibe that you get watching it.
The Lara Sue Chronicles: Penders' New Focus
01:22:51
Speaker
Now, what Penders spends most of his time working on now is a comic book continuation of his echidna series titled The Lara Sue Chronicles. How Penders is able to continue this when the characters were created under a work for hire contract with Archie and use characters that should be owned by Sega is what we will discuss on the next episode as we dig deep into how one man
01:23:18
Speaker
ended the longest running licensed comic book. Oh god. You can firmly place the blame on him. Oh. It is without a doubt. Ken did this thing. I don't, oh man, Ken, ugh.
01:23:42
Speaker
Now again, it's complicated. Part of me is like, you dumb son of a bitch. But the other part of me is like, I kind of feel bad for him because I feel like he's just so excited. But he's also being kind of shitty. He's not willing to share. He's gatekeeping.
01:24:10
Speaker
You know, he is gatekeeping a bit. Yeah. And now he's going to get. There is he's flying too close to the sun. There was a there was a point that I sat down to write the next episode where I was like, am I like. Do I think that he did the right thing? Because I think I'm rooting for him.
01:24:35
Speaker
in one regard. Well, I think this is one of those, which I like a lot in a sense where this is just like one of those morally gray things where no one is totally the bad guy and nobody is totally the good guy.
01:24:56
Speaker
Yes, that is absolutely where we are. Fuck both of the parties involved, but also kind of go, Ken. But also maybe dial it back a bit, Ken. I feel like I can't even be like, fuck you or fuck them or whatever. I feel like it's just kind of like, oh, what a time. And I appreciate that because I don't love to be like super extreme.
01:25:26
Speaker
like this. And I feel like this is kind of how 90 percent of like most things in life go, where it is just like this kind of gray area of like is kind of good. It's kind of bad. It's a thing that happens. It's just a bit odd. Which I think is funny that we're now doing this as opposed to like when we did gamer and comics gate where that is just the land of the extremes and like
01:25:53
Speaker
When you go through that, it really feels like there is just clearly bad guys and clearly good guys. So in a weird way, glad we're doing this. This is very refreshing, I feel like, to me and for other people that like, hey, not everybody is just like a totally terrible person. There are redeeming qualities even in the people that are doing negative things.
01:26:18
Speaker
Yeah. And someone that you may not like may do something that you agree with. Yeah. I found myself agreeing quite heavily. Like, as of right now, like, I am not a Ken fan. I don't... I am not. Like, in general, just not. Yeah, like, I don't really want to go read any of his things. But, like, I also am not like, I wish this man was, like,
01:26:47
Speaker
dead you know it's just like i just like i hope he's doing fine i hope he learns lessons in life and like gets better like as a person i hope he becomes a better person but he's not like he's not a dumpster fire he's just a person i don't agree with i don't know i will give you a fair warning i haven't quite written this part yet but i do know that it's going to come up there is going to be
01:27:14
Speaker
At least the rumors of someone being very Nazi adjacent. Oh, okay. As we all know, I don't like Nazis. I think they're mean and quite shitty. So, yes. Now they're not, they're not, it's not like Ken. Ken's not like, they're not like,
01:27:36
Speaker
suddenly coming out of the woodworks and being like, you know, Hitler seems pretty all right. But it does come up in the story that we are going to go on an adventure with. It does come up. I spoke too soon.
01:27:52
Speaker
I was like, this is going to be nice and gray. And now it's like, oh, well, there's now. It is a tangent. It's a tangential part to what we're going. But it's something that like I it is so heavily tied to Ken that like it would be kind of shitty if I were just like, oh, yeah, like let's not I could just not talk about it. But then you wouldn't really get a full context as to like some of the the aftermath of some of the things that can do.
01:28:22
Speaker
Oh, okay. Okay. You can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can follow us on Instagram by searching at pedantic cast and new episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedantic and gmail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question right on the air.
01:28:50
Speaker
We will be back soon with another deep dive into the world of comics, but until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop. Hello and welcome to Comically Padant. Hold on, I'm gonna try that again.
01:29:19
Speaker
He started, uh, uh, chewing right as I hit record. So it annoyed the fuck out of me. And then I stumbled. Hello and welcome. Take three. Okay. I also hope the furry community doesn't think I'm kink shaving.