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Corinne's Sandman Check In Part 3
24 Plays10 months ago
Taking a brief break from Spider-Man's Clone Saga coverage, Derek and Corinne instead revisit Sandman. This time around the two of them decide to create a tier list for the second volume of Sandman.
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Transcript
Introduction to Comically Pedantic
00:00:13
Speaker
Hey, hi, hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts and the characters and the history of comic book culture. It's to me, again, one of the hosts. My name's Corinne. And then also on the show since the beginning, which is not me, is Derek. That's the other host. He's here, too. Hi, Derek. How are you? Hello.
00:00:41
Speaker
Oh, what a fun intro. I do like how it's progressively more unhinged. I turn it. There's the, we are the duality of people where you are just like, I say it real fast. This is how I do it. And it's crispy. And then I'm just like, I don't know.
The Joy of Improvisation in Comedy
00:01:00
Speaker
If you know any comedians, right? Yeah. One of the things that
00:01:05
Speaker
a lot of the comedians that I know have talked about really enjoying is watching someone go on stage and either do something that they were completely unprepared for or to completely bomb and like just to have that experience and part of it is just because it is such a strange and a new thing that like
00:01:29
Speaker
it becomes a show in and of itself and it's really entertaining to watch. And I feel like the way that you put sentences together tends to follow this like the same kind of logic of like, I don't know where this is going. I like that you were basically like, I am a pre-written script and Corinne is improv theater.
Corinne's Bookstore Adventure
00:01:55
Speaker
Anyway, uh, what's your bright spot? I have no segue today. I love the lack of segue. So my bright spot is I went to the bookstore again and I bought two books and so far I'm reading both of them. So far you read books at the same time. Yeah. I mean, sometimes my brain could never,
00:02:20
Speaker
Sometimes you need a little bit of a break. Well, okay, this is a little bit easier because one is nonfiction and one is fiction. So like one is more of an, okay. So I bought two books. So far they're both good. One is a horror book with like some political leanings to it. It is called Feed by Mira Grant. So far I'm really enjoying it. The other one, the nonfiction one,
00:02:50
Speaker
is called Hi Honey, I'm Homo, which is by Matt Baum. And it is a look at sitcoms from like the fifties up to today and sort of detailing like how queer culture and like queer people are portrayed through them and like
00:03:13
Speaker
like why they're portrayed that way. And it's really interesting. I very much enjoy it. I read a chapter on Bewitched and about how the show never addresses gay people in the show, but there is a lot of subtext to the show about the gay experience. Right.
00:03:37
Speaker
It's fun. I'm enjoying both of them in very different ways. Cool. I think that sounds fun. I think, yeah, I think that would make sense. Like how you are able to read.
00:03:50
Speaker
kind of flip-flop between the two in the same period. I am very much like a hyper-focused completionist when it comes to reading. I'm like, this is the book that I'm reading and I gotta finish it and I won't pick anything else up until I finish it because I feel bad for the other book. I don't know why. I kind of understand that. No, I do understand the feeling bad part because I tend to feel bad
00:04:19
Speaker
in the same way, but I talk myself out of it because it's an inanimate object. It doesn't understand. Yeah. Maybe I watched Toy Story a little too much. I was like, if I turn around, they're going to start moving. No. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's also
00:04:42
Speaker
I think if I get distracted by another book, I'll forget too much of the first book and then I'll have to go backwards and I don't want to go backwards. I think that's the other thing for me. That's probably the main thing for me. I mean, that makes sense too. Again, it's a lot easier here because one is- Again, there's such different genres. Yeah. But anyway, we're going to end up talking way too much about books.
00:05:11
Speaker
We're gonna talk about different books instead. We're gonna talk about my books, the books that I read, like Sandman. Well, wait, you didn't answer your bright spot. You gotta do that first. I tried to segue out of my answer.
Derek's Concert Experience
00:05:25
Speaker
I got to go to Front Bottoms concert with your lady and I had a great time. I got a lot of videos.
00:05:38
Speaker
Oh, did you? I took some not great videos because I am a responsible but silly adult. So I was just really excited to be there and then like forgot that my phone existed a couple of times. And then I was like, oh, wait, I should take a photo of the stage. So I don't forget this moment when I am like 72.
00:06:06
Speaker
But yeah, no, it was a great concert. It was the front bottoms like 10 year anniversary of one of their like beginning albums. And so like Max had surprised me with the tickets literally the day before and was also like Austin's coming up. And I was like, Oh my God, Max arranged a play date. I'm so excited. Yeah, I was at work that night and I just kept opening my phone to find like
00:06:37
Speaker
videos of it. Who else was there? Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because I don't know that band as well as I know the front bottom.
00:06:50
Speaker
I knew them more than I thought I would. I thought I had never heard any songs. Yes. Yes. That is correct. But I thought that I didn't like know any songs from them, but then they would like, they would play like I would recognize like verses and stuff.
00:07:09
Speaker
And I'm like, oh shit, I know more about this than I thought. And I got very excited by that. But yeah, that was a great time. I had a real hoot. I'm actually wearing my sweatshirt right now. It's got a peach and a plum because that's one of my favorite songs. And that was the sweatshirt that they were selling. I think Austin got a, she got something there because I recognized the name
00:07:35
Speaker
on it. She got... Yeah, it's probably Talon of the Hawk. That was the 10-year anniversary album. But she got us matching t-shirts and then she got me the sweatshirt and I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited. And then I got us a bunch of Insomnia cookie, which is...
00:07:57
Speaker
top tier. Speaking of top tier things like insomnia cookie, you know what you do when you don't have insomnia? You sleep and when you sleep, you dream.
Exploring 'Seasons of Mist'
00:08:09
Speaker
And that's where Sandman comes in. We're going to talk about bloody Sandman today. Book two. So book two, where does this start?
00:08:24
Speaker
So book two starts with a story called Seasons of Mist. We have ended book one after a couple of shorter tales, like Dream of a Thousand Cats kind of thing, Calliope, and then Facade, like a bunch of those little ones. But the big stories to come out of book one were
00:08:51
Speaker
the origin story and the dollhouse storyline, which is with the vortex and the Corinthian and the blah, blah, blah and all that. So book two, we're going to go over another two pretty large storylines and then just a couple of little shorter fun ones. And we are going to go through them with the same tier ranking as
00:09:20
Speaker
the previous episode to kind of remind people like, how is Corinne determining where things go, whether they're S tier or A tier or Poopy C tier? But we're going to rank it off of whether I found it memorable or not. Like if somebody talks about this story, like, is this one of the first things that comes to my mind when I think of Sandman?
00:09:45
Speaker
Was I invested in the story while I was reading it? And then did it give me a lot of feelings?
00:09:53
Speaker
I don't care really what the feelings were. I want to know if they were strong or not. So let's dive into it. Um, book two, woo woo woo. We're going to start with, um, one of the big stories right off the bat. Again, it's called seasons of miss. Um, and this story is pretty much like, Hey, what if Lucifer just
00:10:21
Speaker
gave up hell, he was like, I'm retiring, who's stopping me? And kind of to fuck with Sandman, he gives him the keys to hell. He's like, here you go, have fun, figure it out. Because the main reason Lucifer is doing this is because previously in a different story, in a different book,
00:10:49
Speaker
him and Sandman had a kind of like mind battle essentially. And Sandman won, so Lucifer is very jaded. And that is really kind of the motive as to why he gives the keys to Sandman. And then the whole story pretty much goes from there and is like,
00:11:16
Speaker
You know, what's he going to do with the keys? Is he going to keep them? Is he going to give them to someone else? Because there are lots of characters that would love to have the gates of hell in their control. And these are all like mostly like new characters. Some of them are
00:11:39
Speaker
reoccurring. There is a demon. I think his, his name is like Azazel. Um, yes, he was in book one mentioned before. Um, and he had to do with like, uh, Sam and getting like his home back kind of. So it's all these people and characters they're going, trying to come up with, they're like, why I should have hell as my own
00:12:07
Speaker
for my realm kind of situation. And then they come to a conclusion in the end. You also do get a bit of redemption and kind of a good circle back with a different character. I don't know if you remember when we talked about Tales in the Sand. It's like that love story.
00:12:28
Speaker
between Sandman and the one queen and she like dies and she ends up in hell as like a punishment. She comes back and it kind of becomes like here's a redemption moment for Sandman because maybe he wasn't the best boyfriend.
00:12:44
Speaker
be better Sandman. So he gets that opportunity and then you can read it for yourself to see if you think he used his opportunity well or not. So that's all I'm going to tell you about the story. Did I find it memorable?
00:13:06
Speaker
I think I tend to find the larger stories memorable, yes. Just because I think Neil Gaiman knows like, hey, this is going to be a big deal. And like, I feel like he just knows what he's doing with like big event stuff. And generally, I think they are good reads. I like them. Yes, I remember the story quite well.
00:13:33
Speaker
Uh, yeah. So I think it is moderately memorable. I think like maybe doll house or, um, the, the other one we're going to talk about. I might have them more in the forefront of my mind, but yeah, it's memorable. Um, was I invested
Insights on 'A Game of You'
00:13:52
Speaker
in the story? I was pretty invested. Um, I really liked kind of how
00:14:02
Speaker
the Sandman brings all these characters together to hear their arguments as to why they deserve hell and all this stuff. And it's kind of cool to learn about their motives and everything. And they're cool characters to look at because they're all so different and funky. Some of them are from
00:14:26
Speaker
Egyptian mythology. Some of them are from Nordic mythology. Those were actually the two that came to my mind first. Some of them are from there. Some of them are like fairies and stuff from the Midsummer issue.
00:14:47
Speaker
So it's like, you know, there's a lot of cool things going on. I mean, like, demons are never going to be not interesting to look at because they always got something colorful or funky going on. So, yeah, I think I was like pretty I was I was interested to see like, oh, who's he going to give it to? This won't be pretty funky. I also wanted to know, like, would he set his his former lover free? Like, what's he going to do?
00:15:16
Speaker
feelings I mean like I don't think I had any like strong like
00:15:25
Speaker
I don't know, it didn't hit my sensitive side quite much. I wasn't emotionally invested. I was just kind of like, oh, this is a fun, interesting read. And I want to see what happens. But I don't think it really tugged on hard strings or made me feel super on the edge of my seat, like, oh my God. So for that, I think it's going to be lower on the scale.
00:15:54
Speaker
I think I would give this one either an A or B tier. I don't think it's quite S tier because I know that I can have quite an emotional reaction to Sandman stories and that did not happen in this one. I think also I just found that I don't want to spoil the ending because again, I want people to read this and I want them to have like
00:16:22
Speaker
a real reaction to reading it. But I found the ending to be kind of like, I just felt like I kind of went like, oh, interesting. Okay, cool. I do think the ending is interesting, but I don't think it necessarily fits with kind of where you're thinking everything is going to go and what your expectations are.
00:16:51
Speaker
for a story that is set up this way. Yeah, like I, if you had to say there was like a plot twist, like, I don't know if you could call it that big of a plot twist though. I think it's more of like a little, a plot askew, I don't know. Well, not to fully give it away, but honestly, what comes to my mind is the Deus Ex Machina. Like,
00:17:20
Speaker
It is just sort of like, we have a problem. We have to do this thing. And then literally, here's the solution is given from someone else. And it kind of works in that regard, but I think it might be a little too clever and not as interesting. Well, I think the idea of how it is resolved is very interesting.
00:17:49
Speaker
but just not for this story. Yeah, I guess so. So I think I'm leaning it towards B tier, I think. Look, if I were to rank it. I don't know though. What would you give it? Would you give it an A or a B? I would give it.
00:18:13
Speaker
I would give it a B. I genuinely love so much of that story. But as a story on its own, I didn't really care for it as much. And I thought it was interesting because when I was reading it for the first time, the person who gave me that, that was their favorite story in Sandman. And they were surprised it wasn't mine.
00:18:41
Speaker
And actually my favorite, they didn't really like it. The one that I think your favorite is, I am not surprised that it is your favorite. I'm so curious. I'm ready for it. Seasons of Mist, I think, is a great setup.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yes, you also I will I will say this now you do get to meet more of the the endless characters. So we meet destiny because destiny kind of gives the intro to this story. You also.
00:19:20
Speaker
You don't really meet despair in the previous book, but you are introduced to despair who is desires like kind of Gemini twin almost. And then you meet delirium and now delirium. This is the first appearance of delirium, I guess. Yes, it is because she wasn't in the first one at all.
00:19:50
Speaker
I'm just going to double check. I'm pretty sure no, because I know this is definitely the first time because, um, they like intro that delirium used to be something else. Yes. And I can't remember the word delight. Oh my God. There we go. I was like, it's a D word and it was a nice word, but now I can't remember it.
00:20:18
Speaker
So yeah, delirium used to be delight, but then it transitioned into delirium because it was too delightful. I personally find this character to be very delightful, but I also understand delirium, why that is more appropriate.
00:20:43
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. Um, but yeah, so you meet, you meet those three. Um, you were also introduced to the fact that they do have another sibling. Um, but they are either banished or missing or have run away. We don't know what the title of. Oh, they don't reveal that they don't reveal their title in this. No, they just keep saying like our brother, your brother.
00:21:14
Speaker
Hishimi's brother. I don't know. So I don't know who it is. I want to know who it is. And in Seasons of Mist, they do kind of like use that like unknown missing character. Some of them use it as kind of like leverage. Being like, oh, I might know where your brother is. Give me hell. And then Sandman's like, I'll think about it. But
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're gonna give, I think we're gonna give that a B tier. So I gotta mark it and then we're gonna move to book. Okay. So the next story that we are going to talk about is called Thermador. Thermador is a shorter story and it takes place during the French Revolution. So there is a character, her name is Joanna.
00:22:10
Speaker
Constantine, Constantine. Yeah, it's so, I always say Constantine, but technically it's Constantine. We will respectfully call her Constantine. Or just Joanna, her name's Joanna. And she, this Joanna is,
00:22:34
Speaker
How do I say it? Like either the granddaughter or the great granddaughter of a previous Joanna in a different story. Do you remember when we talked about the one where it's like the man who won't die and then him and Sam may become friends? Okay. So when they meet at the bar like forever ago, they run into like,
00:22:54
Speaker
This current Joanna's like ancestor and they have a little scuffle But so basically Thermidor is about Sandman goes to Joanna and is like, hey You got you gotta take I'll find my son's head And you gotta make history with And so literally like
00:23:22
Speaker
She goes on a whole mission throughout the French Revolution and collects the head of Orpheus. The Sandman is Orpheus's dad. And she basically uses his head to viva la revolution. And that is pretty much it.
00:23:51
Speaker
It is a fun story. I don't know if I was super invested in it because I was like, is the French Revolution my favorite part of history to learn about or think about? Not really. But I thought Joanna was cool. So I was like, boy, I hope she makes it out alive.
00:24:16
Speaker
And I thought it was like cool that you get introduced to Orpheus and the fact that like him and Sandman are related. I was like, that's cool. And like that's honestly kind of my only thoughts about this. Like it is, this is memorable enough that I, you know, I could be like, oh yeah, hey, there was that one time where we thought about the French Revolution and Morpheus together. What a time.
00:24:47
Speaker
But it was okay. So I think I would give this one just like solid B tier. I think it's just in the B. It's basic, it's fine. It's a good quick ROM. Good quick Sandman read. I think I maybe wanted a little more Sandman, but it's okay. Because I know sometimes he's not like always like the main thing in his issues. And that's okay. I think for this one, I just wanted
00:25:16
Speaker
I just wanted a little more this time. I genuinely forgot about this story. Yeah. I mean, it is like when you described it, I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of fun. I don't know. I just like it because there's a lot of points where they're like, where is this head? And it's like, I love that they're just looking for a head. And it's what a time.
00:25:45
Speaker
super quick. Anyway, the next one is called Augustus. The next few
00:25:54
Speaker
There's like three stories in a row that are all kind of like month-based. And I thought it was really fun in the book. I was like, ooh, this is cool. And I think only I thought it was cool. I don't know if anyone's ever noticed it. I had a cute tie with it though. But Augustus is about in Rome, you have
00:26:21
Speaker
like Emperor Augustus. And he spends the day disguised as a beggar. And he just uses that to like see his people and like witness his people with different perspective. And it's a very short thing. It's very much like a conversation almost with him and like his
00:26:50
Speaker
I guess it's like you would call it like a squire kind of, because his helper like assists him into getting out of like a castle. And basically he's just doing this because like he had a dream and like Morpheus came to him in the dream with like a prophecy and thus it's like a, here's a look into a character. Ain't this fun?
00:27:15
Speaker
I thought this was maybe a little less memorable than the Thermador one because it was just kind of like, all right, I don't really know what to do with this, but like, all right. I wasn't like majorly invested because it was very minimal. It was like the least amount of Sandman that there has been in a Sandman comic. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, I thought it was
00:27:44
Speaker
I had some nice feelings from reading it because I was like, yeah, it's an old man and a young man having a conversation and they're talking about life together. And it seems like, you know, they're trying to, you know, have some sort of like sympathy or empathy for each other. And I always like when that's like happening, I like empathy.
00:28:10
Speaker
But I think honestly this is going in C tier with Midsummer because I'm just like, it's good. It's fine. Whatever. So we're giving it a C. I don't know. Do you remember this one at all or? I remember that one more than the previous. And I think it was one of those things where the first time I read it, I really liked it.
00:28:38
Speaker
Okay. But I have reread Sandman a few times.
00:28:41
Speaker
And whenever I come to that, I'm always like, Oh yeah, I remember liking this, but then it takes it. It's harder for me to get through because it's like, okay. Like I get it. Yeah. I know we're not going anywhere. Yeah. You kind of get what they're saying pretty quick. Yeah. All right. Here's the next one. This is the second big boy story in book two.
00:29:09
Speaker
And it is Derek's, what I presume, his favorite. And it's called A Game of You. Is that your favorite? Did I get it right? This is absolutely my favorite. Okay. So A Game of You is a really good story. I really, really liked it.
00:29:31
Speaker
Oh, that makes me so happy. I genuinely love this. Oh, I had a great time with it. So you take this side character from Dollhouse. Her name was Barbie. Now, Barbie used to date this guy named Ken. Ha, ha, ha. Do you get the joke? I got the joke. They're no longer together because Ken was an ass. And also the Vortex kind of had a bit of clay into fucking with their relationship. Yeah.
00:29:57
Speaker
So Barbie is alone at this point in time, and she lives with, she lives in an apartment complex with some really cool, unique characters. You have a lovely lesbian couple, you have a beautiful trans woman, you've got this reclusive, younger, bookish girl, and then you've got a really weird tenant, or you got a really weird landlord.
00:30:25
Speaker
And basically what happens is Barbie's old dreams are starting to come back to her and they are finding ways to get into her reality because they need her help. There is a thing known as the cuckoo.
00:30:45
Speaker
that is trying to destroy her dream land. And they need Princess Barbie to come back and save the castle. And she's like, all right, fuck it, we ball. And it is like this super cool fantasy journey.
00:31:08
Speaker
And now, because Barbie has to enter the dream world, that creates some problems. The cuckoo is also trying to get Barbie in the real world, so that also creates some problems. All of the fellow neighbors
00:31:28
Speaker
come into play and start to help out. And very much like in the dollhouse where you have the dreams that teach you about all the secondary characters, you get a very similar thing with here. So you get really awesome perspectives into the lives of each individual.
00:31:48
Speaker
And I really, really liked it. I thought it was super good. I thought it was very fantastical while also keeping me really invested in what could be like real people out in the world.
00:32:04
Speaker
and i really really liked it so like if you couldn't tell already this one's in in friggin s tier baby uh wait i think this one actually i think this one has the least amount of sandman in it
00:32:19
Speaker
like pretty much out of, like, cause he really only shows up like at the end. At the end. Yeah. But it's also like, it makes the most sense. Oh yeah. No, I genuinely love it. Like his entry into his own story is like so well earned and it's like delicious when he comes in and I love it. Um,
00:32:44
Speaker
Because he comes in at the best, worst point of the book and he makes it all. You're like, oh, everything's going to be okay now because it's here. Homeboy has arrived. It's just such a good story. I really liked the character Wanda. She was really great.
00:33:08
Speaker
And like, I really felt for, I really liked Wanda and Barbie's friendship. I think it was really special and they clearly just like, they just loved each other in like this like way that sisters do. Yeah. I think that was evident like very early on. And I felt like everything between the two of them was super well done.
00:33:31
Speaker
Yes, like you could 100% be like, yes, I know the exact kind of friends that these two are. And I loved that. The other thing that I really liked, now I cannot say for sure when this was published. In 1991 and 1992 are when they were published and they were collected in 1993. Okay.
00:33:59
Speaker
So that's like early 90s. Oh, yeah. Before even the close saga started. Yeah. It will look around that area. Yeah. So we're within that ballpark. And look at the massive difference. Look at the difference, gang. Can you tell which one Corinne likes most?
00:34:27
Speaker
I wonder. Okay, so for the early 90s, and also it's not my place to decide if this is a good representation or not, because I'm just an ally here. I just like all the people that are good people.
00:34:51
Speaker
I don't really care what you look like and stuff, but I thought that this was pretty good. Like this was a good trans character, Wanda. Like you showed that it's like, yes, like she has a complicated life, but also just look how like kind and happy and supportive of a friend she is. And also look, she has this super kind, supportive, loving friend. Like, cause this person deserves love.
00:35:17
Speaker
And I thought that that was really special. And a few times in the issue, there are some... They do kind of play into the dreams of... Because the bad guy is trying to fuck with them. So obviously it's trying to torment them a little bit. And there's some not fun imagery there.
00:35:40
Speaker
And also the landlord is a bit shitty, but all in all, everybody's pretty supportive of this person just being who they are. And I thought that that was really nice, especially for the early 90s. And I don't know how far you are in your honey, I'm homo story. But you know,
00:36:07
Speaker
I think even in the early 2000s, just having LGBTQ representation was a bit tough. Yes. Neil's being pretty cool in the early 90s, just having some good friendships. I can think of some criticisms that could be lobbied against this.
00:36:27
Speaker
I think that's fair. I would also say, I'm not saying this is a perfect thing. No, no, no. And I don't know how much I could agree or disagree with those. I just know I can point them out. But I also know that this is not representative of where we were as a society.
00:36:56
Speaker
in the early night. This is leagues above what generally was being published. I think that is what I am mainly trying to say. Right. Because the main positive points that I really liked that they did for Wanda
00:37:14
Speaker
was, again, just having that really solid, good, loving friendship. And then also at the end, because it's very clear that Wanda did not have great parents that were very supportive, Barbie goes to the funeral and essentially writes over the gravestone to be the proper name. And I'm like, hell yes.
00:37:40
Speaker
give her justice, like we love. I really, I spoiled a bit there, but like dodge over it. Well, I mean, I can tell you, I, I remember
00:37:52
Speaker
when I finished reading this. Because I finished, like I remember, I was in New York. I was in New York at like a deli. And I was like, oh, well, I have some time to kill. I'm just gonna finish reading. I remember finishing it because I remember going, damn. I loved that whole story and that ending really hit me.
00:38:18
Speaker
The ending really hit me too. It was very good. Um, so yeah, again, this is not a perfect piece of material. Cause again, it was, it was the nineties and hopefully everybody's growing now. Um, but I liked, I liked again, I like all the different characters, all the different people that are doing their lives and they're all coming together for one reason.
00:38:48
Speaker
and is to save the real world and destroy a bird character. The stakes are a little higher in this one than most too. The stakes were pretty high. There's a point where like the moon gets affected and it like fucks shit up. It's wild. But yeah, I think this is an S tier. There was not a character that I didn't like.
00:39:15
Speaker
and it's just a really good story, everyone should read it. So yeah, a game of you gets an ass tear. I also realized I skipped one because I was just so excited to talk about a game of you. We have two more.
Analyzing 'Three Septembers and a January'
00:39:33
Speaker
The next one is called Three Septembers End of January. This is one of those month-themed ones because September and January. Basically,
00:39:46
Speaker
It's a short story where despair is like, I'm going to have a competition with y'all. I'm holding this man in despair. And y'all got to get him out of it. Good luck. And so it's like delirium gets a shot.
00:40:11
Speaker
Death is there, every once in a while, desire is there, and then dream is there. They're all in competition to like, get this man out. And it's pretty cool. It is a bit confusing sometimes, but I think that's just because you got delirium in there. And like, are you really supposed to have things make sense with a character like delirium? I liked seeing all the endless characters kind of like,
00:40:41
Speaker
hanging out together. It is interesting what they have this man go through. He like declares himself a king and like everyone really likes him and I really liked him. Which I don't know if you know this. That's based on a real person.
00:41:08
Speaker
It felt like a familiar story. That person really existed, and people really did just kind of play along. They were like, all right, you're king, man. And they were just like, where with it? That was a real thing. I thought that was great. He was like the king of San Francisco, I think. Yeah.
00:41:35
Speaker
I think he's dead now, but no, he, he was a real person who, uh, kind of became like a local celebrity and, um, just like, I guess Neil must've heard of him and wrote him in his, uh, uh, yeah, he died in 1880.
00:42:00
Speaker
He proclaimed himself Emperor of, I think, the United States, actually, but just decided what he was doing. Yeah, I loved it.
00:42:17
Speaker
I think this one is an A tier. I think it just, it made me feel very like this is a cool like hometown story kind of thing. I liked, you know, I wanted to know like where this guy was going to go. And like, ah, I just liked how all the endless characters like came together in a very weird situation, but like it was still very cool. Um, so yeah, that's an A tier.
00:42:48
Speaker
The last story is Orpheus, because we already did Game of View because I was too excited to talk about your favorite thing.
The Tragic 'Orpheus' Story
00:42:57
Speaker
So Orpheus, as we know now after Thermidor, Sandman and Orpheus are father and son situation because Calliope was Orpheus's, or not Orpheus's, Calliope was Orpheus.
00:43:15
Speaker
That's a different story and that one's called Oedipus. That one is called it.
00:43:24
Speaker
Oops. No one needs a Freudian complex here. Anyway, so family tree time, Calliope and Sandman Morpheus Sleepy Time Boy got together at one point and had a baby. And that baby's name was Orpheus. And Orpheus was really good at songs and singing and being cool.
00:43:54
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds familiar. I know, right? Hadestown. That's a musical now. And he falls in love with Eurydice, who's just a really cool lady. And they fall in love and they get married. Oh, so cute. Now, here's the thing.
00:44:14
Speaker
The rest of this comic is essentially if you just read the Greek mythology of Orpheus and Eurydice. They just toss in the conversation of Sandman being like, hey, son, maybe you shouldn't go retrieve your wife who just died and is now in the underworld because people who go to the underworld and are living don't typically come back. Not a good idea.
00:44:43
Speaker
I will be very upset with you if you do this because you're basically just like you're not playing by the universe's rules. And a grief-stricken Orpheus is like, screw you, dad, I do what I want.
00:45:04
Speaker
And yeah, the story goes from there. It's a Greek tragedy, so I think you can assume it doesn't go well. Orpheus don't make it out of like a thousand year old story. And yeah, so Orpheus's head ends up
00:45:25
Speaker
on this really cool island and then somehow ends up in the French Revolution, but such is life. And it is a fun story. It's a fun read. I like Greek mythology. So in terms of memorable points is quite memorable, but also I find a lot of like
00:45:44
Speaker
big Greek mythology stories like this one to be easily memorable. I mean, if you had a story that used to be told only through spoken word and then it was eventually written down like forever ago. It would be memorable. It's got multiple adaptations like a Sandman comic strip and a musical and
00:46:08
Speaker
in a popular video game, I think it's going to be pretty memorable. So it's pretty easy over there. Was I invested? Honestly, yeah, I was kind of invested because they got my Greek mytho biased lockdown in this one. Did I have a lot of feelings? I don't know if I had a ton of feelings from this one because I knew what was going to happen.
00:46:38
Speaker
I think maybe I got some feelings towards the end because I was like, oh wow, like this ends with a father and son really not liking each other. But then in a way I know that in the future.
00:46:52
Speaker
Morpheus Sandman is going to kind of like try and help his son out, you know, by stopping his head from getting in the wrong hands. I mean, it fills that role of tragedy because you can kind of, you can see it. It's not just like what happens to Orpheus, but knowing where it's going and how
00:47:19
Speaker
pretty much everyone involved got screwed over. Yeah, well, because you know that it ends with, I mean, Eurydice dies from the beginning. She gets attacked by a wedding guest and then steps on his name. Orpheus, he ain't coming back because he goofed. Yeah.
00:47:42
Speaker
Morpheus. I don't know why I have now chosen to call him Morpheus. I think it's just a lot of rhymes with Morpheus. But Sandman now has a weird relationship with his son and it takes him a couple like millennia to try and fix it. He obviously is not together with Calliope anymore, so it breaks up another marriage. Um,
00:48:11
Speaker
And then friggin' Hades is just like, hey, what are people doing here that aren't supposed to be here? That's a lot of paperwork for me. Hey-oh. So yeah, it really just goofs up a lot of people's day. What a time. Did we already give it a letter title? No, I don't think we did. I think I got too distracted. I'm gonna give it just a good old A tier, because I'm biased.
00:48:40
Speaker
Yeah, Greek mythology is one of those things that you really gotta fuck up to make it not fun. And honestly, well, I don't know. We probably will not keep this rant. I'm just gonna stick with it. Yeah, you're right. Keep that. But I don't know, there's some renditions of Greek mythology that I'm not a big fan of, but I think it's more because it's not
00:49:03
Speaker
is I'm not the audience that the people who are writing it are going to, you know? Cause I think I've aged out of it. Um, like I don't, I don't, I'm not a big fan of like, uh, I'm not a big Laura Olympus person. And I think it's just, cause like, again, I'm not, it's like, do you know what webtoon is? Oh yeah. It's like one of the biggest like webtoons.
00:49:33
Speaker
So I think I still have webtoons, but I did it for one that was, someone said on CBR or something, this is one of the scariest webtoons and I was like, all right, I'm gonna check this out. And I thought it was kind of garbage. So I just didn't really check many others out.
00:49:51
Speaker
Well, so, yeah, so there's, there's Lore Olympus and it's like, it's mainly the story of Persephone and, uh, and Hades. Yeah. And they kind of make it from my, like, from the bits that I've seen this kind of like Twilight esque thing. Wait, do they make Persephone actually like Hades? Yeah.
00:50:19
Speaker
Which is like I know sometimes like in tons of different like, you know adaptations Like that goes back and forth and it's debatable and all that stuff. Yeah
00:50:34
Speaker
But, um, and I don't think that's too much of like what my, my, my thing is with it. I don't know. It just feels like weird. And like, I think it's too like, I think it's too Twilight teeny bopper for me. Yeah. I can, I can, I can imagine. Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
I don't know, but if that's the thing that other people like, that is okay. I will not yuck your yum, but I will yuck my yuck and that is not my favorite thing. But yeah, this adaptation I think is really cool. Big fan. I'm going to give it an eight here. And that is book two. Whoop-de-doo. Yeah. Did you, do you, I mean, well, a game of you is in here. So I guess that is your favorite, but do you have other favorites from this one?
00:51:29
Speaker
from this particular one. Yeah, I don't know. The Orpheus one sticks out a lot to me. I don't know how much of that is because it's tied to just the Greek mythology. But it does stick out and I remember really liking it. If I'm going back over...
00:51:53
Speaker
Yeah, so much of Seasons of Mist I like, but as a story, as a whole story, it's not a favorite. Oh, okay. There is one part of Seasons of Mist that I really, really liked, and I would maybe give it S tier, keeping it separate from the story as a whole. I think I know what you're talking about, and I really hope I'm right.
00:52:20
Speaker
I think you are. So there is a point. Okay. So because back to season, the mist was forgives keys of health to salmon and fucking leaves. So that means that like for a period of time, no one is managing hell. So does anyone can do whatever like they can just leave if they want. So, so demons leave and like dead people leave.
00:52:48
Speaker
And there's this, there's this one issue that just broke my heart. Yes. And it is this boy, I'm laughing cause I'm so sad. There's this little boy, he's alive and he is alone at a private school because like his dad's like,
00:53:12
Speaker
at a military base or something. And like they can't pick him up for spring break or something. So he's alone for the week with like the headmaster or whatever of this school. Right at the time when hell is not being managed. And this public or this private school is like centuries old. So like all of the ghosts from like centuries past of this private school come back
00:53:42
Speaker
pretty much as consequence of Lucifer giving up hell. And they just are the worst people. And this poor boy is like, man, I really don't like this. This really sucks.
00:54:00
Speaker
And he makes friends with a young ghost boy who died in the school. And it's a whole journey. And it's very sad. And it has a bittersweet ending to it. It's just a whole time. And I would give that story alone.
Dead Boy Detectives Discussion
00:54:20
Speaker
That's tier. When I talk about the things in Seasons of Mist that I really like, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
00:54:27
Speaker
I love that we both love really fucked up dark stories. But I am a very, everything's fine personality. I have a little bit of trivia for you just based off of some of what we've talked about. Oh, okay. We kind of already mentioned the emperor of the United States because that just kind of came up.
Dead Boy Detectives Trivia
00:54:57
Speaker
a couple of other fun things. So the dead boy detectives that we just talked about, they actually returned, not in Sandman that I know of, but like throughout, like they had their own little mini series published by DC Comics.
00:55:15
Speaker
Oh, good. Because the little boy's like, basically like death is like, I'll come back to collect you later. Like you guys have fun. And it's like so cute and I love it. Cause it's just, is little, little boys having a nice time in the end, being friends and I love when people are being friends. I'm also going to give you something to look forward to because they are making a dead boy detectives show.
00:55:45
Speaker
Ooh, fun. And so it was originally announced it was gonna be on HBO, but recently they announced it's actually going to be added to Netflix instead. Okay, I do have Netflix. Also, speaking of TV shows, the whole premise of Lucifer closing up shop and leaving hell, that led to a separate series called Lucifer.
00:56:13
Speaker
This is about like a TV show where there's like a British man. Right. So that's loosely based off of the comic book. The, uh, the comic book is very different from the show. Um, but, uh, but I mean, that's like a pretty fun idea. Like, you know, to, to move that, um, and, uh, last bit of trivia, this is much, much smaller.
00:56:41
Speaker
It's not like I was building to this, but the lesbian couple in a game of you. Oh, I think I know what you're going to say. Can I guess? Oh yeah. Okay. So there's a point where like, um, one of the, the women has a nightmare about like a previous relationship and that previous relationship, um, the partner in that,
00:57:08
Speaker
is in the diner issue. Right. It's Judy. Judy, yes. Was that the trivia bit? That was the biggest part of it, yeah. Okay. And the thing that I thought was so interesting is that these two, Foxglove and Hazel, they must have been characters that Gaiman really liked.
00:57:37
Speaker
because if you read more of Gaiman's sort of like Sandman universe stuff, specifically death, they show back up.
00:57:51
Speaker
Good. That you follow along their lives for a bit. I love this shit. Because I thought really invested in their relationship. Oh, me too. And that was another thing that I really liked about that story was that it showed a complicated lesbian relationship. Yes. And at no point did it feel
00:58:19
Speaker
exploitative, I think, at all. No, exactly. Just a genuine relationship. Yeah, I think that's like the thing that I really like the most about that issue.
00:58:33
Speaker
a lot of his other issues, like, cause you see it a little bit in the diner scene too, kind of, but it's like people are allowed to have complicated relationships and people are also still allowed to like love each other. And I think that is super cool and special and not a lot of people are good at writing that. No, not at all. I think that like, well, maybe, okay, going back to, maybe we will add the Laura Olympus rant, but I think that's maybe why I don't like it. Cause I think like,
00:59:04
Speaker
Persephone and Hades is, I think in history, one of the most complicated relationships because, you know, some interpretations are like, it's the rape of Persephone. It's the kidnapping of Persephone. And then others are like, I'm actually maybe. And like, you know, it's a complicated, questionable relationship. And that is hard to write. And some people don't write it well.
00:59:34
Speaker
No, and I think, man, just another interesting fun thing about A Game of You. It is such a feminine story in that pretty much- It is literally all feminine story. Almost every character is a woman. And from different- And I love that it's like a different,
00:59:59
Speaker
Each individual woman, like there's no showing of like, Barbie is just like Fox stuff or Fox stuff. Just like they're all very different. And you have like, uh, uh, like so many different viewpoints on what it is to be a woman.
01:00:21
Speaker
and they're all valid and I love it. It's so good. Like I generally- And it was the early nineties. Like, can you believe this? I don't want to take anything away from the, like what follows in Sandman because it's all amazing. It's all good. But I,
01:00:41
Speaker
That is a high point for me in that series. I think there's always a really high point from each book that I've read so far because I did really like A Game of You, but holy crap, I still love Dollhouse and I love The Man That Doesn't Die. There's too many that I'm like, oh, they're so good because they do capture different moods.
01:01:11
Speaker
of the reading for me, it's really nice. I think what I like a lot about this book too, this collection, so much of the stories in this second book are all really just different variations of like, well Morpheus was kind of shit, and now he's a little better.
01:01:33
Speaker
Well, and I think like, so when we first ever talked about Sandman, there was a point that I, an opinion that I had that like, compared to a lot of other gods that I've read their stories, Orpheus, I keep saying Orpheus, Sandman felt the most like neutral, you know, like less
01:01:59
Speaker
petty, it was kind of like, well them's the rules, gotta follow the rules. Instead of being like, I'm going to turn into a bull and have sex with people. Um, and I, I really. It's amazing how many, uh, uh, like different, uh, like religions have that be like a thing that gods do. Like I'm thinking, oh man.
01:02:27
Speaker
or just like, I was like, damn Zeus. And then I immediately was like, Loki does shit like that too. Yeah, it's weird. Stop doing that. Um, but I was like, yeah, he's the most neutral. And then like, as some stories went on, I was like, Oh, he's a little petty, but like not in the way that, but he uses like his neutrality as like a buffer from the pettiness. Yeah.
01:02:56
Speaker
And like, it's nice to, I was like, all right, so this character does have flaws, but I was still like, I was in the end, I was okay with them. And then reading the second book, I was like, oh, he's like actually trying to work on himself. And again, that doesn't happen with a lot of like, you know, like deities and stuff like that I have found. And I'm like, oh, this is really cool. I like it. What a time. Um,
01:03:25
Speaker
So yeah, I had a great time. I really like these books. Big fan. I think the writing is very good. Top tier all around. Sandman is S tier. In conclusion.
01:03:43
Speaker
But yeah, I think one day I will read book three once I eventually get through the current book I'm reading and the clone saga. These episodes have been me hardcore procrastinating reading maximum clonage, which hopefully I will read soon.
01:04:08
Speaker
Um, who knows? I'm not that we're basically going to get three episodes in a row of me being like, hi, and welcome to the column. I did. Uh, I started reading my section, like part two of maximum footage. Yeah. I gotta read part one. A lot of responsibility and power in this microphone.
01:04:35
Speaker
Well, gang, this has been great. I'm having a great time. I will continue to have a great time next week with Derek. Um, you can find more information at comically pedantic.com. Uh, you can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedantic cast. That is again, P E D A N T I C C A S T.
01:05:00
Speaker
new episodes come out on most Sundays on iTunes and Stitcher and Google Podcasts and Spotify and at comicallypedantic.com.
01:05:12
Speaker
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01:05:33
Speaker
Uh, if you would like to send a donation to the games and online harassment hotline, you can go through fuckcomicsheat.com because that's the whole reason that we got that domain. Um, protect, protect people. Yay. Um, we will be back soon with another deep dive into the world of comics, but until then you can find more and exciting adventures at your local comic shop. Bye.
01:06:13
Speaker
you