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Spider-Man Clone Saga: Time Bomb
28 Plays8 months ago
Derek does a brief rundown of the behind-the-scenes intrigue surrounding the editorial staff at Marvel during the Clone Saga before describing the events of "Time Bomb"
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Comically Potantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm Derek L. Chase, and joining me on this episode, as always, is the wonderful Corinne Liebe. Oh, hi. It's a me. My name is Corinne. That is a very soft answer. I feel like I came on very strong, and you were just like, hey, how's it going?
00:00:36
Speaker
I love the duality of co-host. Yeah. Um, okay. So we, like I'm, we've already spoken for like an hour before we even started recording. So I do kind of want to like, yeah,
Discovering the Digimon Card Game
00:00:49
Speaker
I know. Let's, let's start by just getting directly into Corinne. What is your bright spot?
00:00:56
Speaker
Oh, you know what? After the whole hour that we talked, I can't, I did not even concede an answer to this question. I can give you one that's completely unrelated. So if you want to, if you want to have time to like, go for it.
00:01:12
Speaker
All right, so we, I mean, you and I had talked about like some of the stressors in our lives and some of the like, you know, there's some good stuff coming out of it too. But for me, last week I went on like a little adventure around town, actually in your old town. And I stumbled into like a games and hobby shop. And for anyone that is aware, I'm a huge Digimon fan and
00:01:41
Speaker
When I was younger, I was really into the Digimon card game and I actually learned how to play it, but it was really complicated and kind of sucked. So they stopped making it, but they relaunched it a few years ago as like a whole new game, new cards, new rules, all that good stuff. And apparently it's quite good. So when I wandered into this games and like hobby shop, I kind of got to talking to the guy that owns the place and
00:02:06
Speaker
He offered to like teach me how to play this new game. So I have found a new thing to take all of my money and a new thing to take up my time.
The Appeal of Trading Card Games
00:02:17
Speaker
And for whatever reason, I'm very happy about that. Welcome to the world of trading card games. I mean, I've been into trading card games before. It's just that usually when I was much younger and it was
00:02:35
Speaker
Honestly, like where I grew up much harder to get people that were invested in the same thing. No, I do love a trading card. I'm more of a Pokemon person for sure. I have like a whole binder of just Pokemon cards and I've like made my own decks. I've like bought decks.
00:02:54
Speaker
I would love to find a place where I can play against other people. Um, cause right now it's just max and I play each other and it's fun, but I need somebody else to kick my butt. I can get some Pokemon cards and get started. It is a fun time. Um, I highly recommend if you want to actually play it by just a deck or like a, like a build your own deck first.
00:03:23
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm doing that with the Digimon thing. Yeah. Because the booster packs, they are really just for like, once you have a solid deck and you have booster packs that kind of fit the generation or whatever that's been released, that's when you can like swap everything out.
00:03:45
Speaker
Those are like the real gambling tickets. I somehow ended up with a bunch of Digimon cards from this game, either through just buying them if I see them out because I like the artwork and I like the characters, or I went to a Digimon movie a few months ago and they were giving out Digimon cards as you walked in, exclusive to the movie.
00:04:14
Speaker
So I have like a bunch of those and then I'm buying like a starter deck. And then I'm just going to go through and like, as I learned, swap some of the, cause I probably have like 50 cards, but not enough to like make an actual working deck. Like none that like fit the right. Cause you need like X amount of like a certain type of card and then X amount of. And I have a lot of like things that don't really go together.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, no, I get you. Because there are a lot of people that make gimmick decks. It's supposed to do a specific strategy. I'm bad at doing that. My toxic game trait is that I play strictly off of vibes with what I think is a neat little guy. That might not mean it's the strongest card or the smartest way to play.
00:05:06
Speaker
I just like looking at the cards and I like having them out and then I'm emotionally destroyed when my Pokemon gets knocked out. Well, I'll tell you what, I think when we're done recording, I'm going to run to that shop and I'll see if they have any Pokemon starter packs too. Oh, they definitely do. All right. Well, then I'll get both.
Gifting Experiences and Plans
00:05:28
Speaker
As you should. It's a lot of fun. So I support this journey you're going on for your trading card era. Okay. I think my bright spot is I got to finally give Max his Christmas gift. I had gotten tickets for us to go to Radio City Music Hall.
00:05:50
Speaker
and watch an orchestrated viewing of Lord of the Rings, like the two towers. Oh, I wanted to do that. Yeah, so it's like a 280 person orchestra. Yeah. Yeah, it's really great. We got to, so is the second movie. It was the two towers, like going with the giant fight scene at the end. Like, you know, a lot of great stuff happens in the movie. That's my favorite, by the way.
00:06:18
Speaker
I think Max has seen that one the most. And then I think it would be Return of the King and then Fellowship, I think.
00:06:28
Speaker
I don't know. So I was like, I got to make it a whole day because we're going to have to take a two hour train to get to New York. So we get on the train. I had made dinner reservations to lay a Japanese barbecue spot. So you're cooking on the table yourself and the food was really good. And then I had the root that I planned out.
00:06:55
Speaker
made it so that one, it's not that far of a walk from the train station. So it was like, we got food and then on the way to Radio City, there was the Lego store at Rockefeller Center.
00:07:11
Speaker
I took him to the Lego store and I was like, you can pick a Lego as long as it's not like the freaking elf palace. That's like $500. I was like, I will, I will get you a Lego price. There's one that Austin really wants. That's also like $500, but I don't, I think it's like a Hogwarts thing.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, there's like crazy Harry Potter ones. There's crazy Star Wars ones. Like I know the Millennium Falcon's like huge. Yeah, I kind of want that. Yeah. And then there's like the big Lord of the Rings one. I think it's like Rivendell. I think that's what it's called.
00:07:49
Speaker
I can't fail now. I went to an orchestrated Lord of the Rings thing. I have to be a fan now. Um, I was before, but anyway, um, I took him to the Lego store. He got a little, um, little brick heads of Gandalf and the, the ballrog, like a little weird demon that he fights in the mood. So God is the ones that have like the, they're like the bigger Lego heads or is that something else?
00:08:19
Speaker
They're like, they're like little figurine statues that are very like blocky and they have like- Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I know what they are then. Yeah. Yeah. They're really cute. Um, but I got, that was like a little, that was one little like box. So I got him that I got myself some Lego flowers because I love to have a decorated toy. Um, of course. Yeah.
00:08:41
Speaker
And then we saw the show and it was, we saw the movie. It was great. He had the best time. And that is probably why it's my bright spot. I love when a gift that I give works out so well. And like, he just was like, so happy. And I'm like, this is great. I, I, I championed this. Like, this is my thing. I love that. So I was very proud of myself.
00:09:06
Speaker
We just recently went to Radio City Music Hall because I got tickets to see Taylor Tomlinson for Austin Mine's anniversary. And yeah, it was a great time. It's like a, I think it's coming out on Netflix this year because it was like a recorded thing.
00:09:24
Speaker
Uh, it was a hell of a lot of fun. We had like, it was just great. She's wonderful. Um, but like, you know, we, I just recently got Austin, I got Austin a gift and I got myself a gift and they're both like events, which are usually not my type of gift, but, um, I got awesome. Well, for me, I, I, my personal gift was just, I'm going to see a show. It's like my favorite podcast. I'm going to go see these guys do a live performance.
00:09:52
Speaker
It's really fun. I'm looking forward to it for Austin. I got us tickets to go see Manchester orchestra again. Oh yeah. This time in Brooklyn and like there's no one else on the ticket. So like I have no idea. I think it might just be Manchester orchestra for like the entire time.
00:10:09
Speaker
That'll be fun. That's great. I mean, I love that we have things that we have going on, um, where we can actually like get out and do something versus being, I'm literally stuck in the room that I'm in right now because we're redoing our closet and I'm surrounded by things. So maybe I'm more excited about the idea of being outside than usual. No, it's nice. It's nice to like get a break from something and like, you know,
00:10:36
Speaker
I had bought these tickets in like November so it was nice to like have it finally like oh like this is what I paid for this is great um because I couldn't tell I was like this is either gonna be a great gift or just gonna be like fine
00:10:52
Speaker
Um, but max is like an experienced person all the way. And, uh, so like last year for his birthday, I took him to the Ren fair. He had a great time. Uh, and I was like, I don't know how I'm going to top that cause like, I took a lot of effort into like coordinating and I'm not always the best planner. I'm usually pretty good with the flow. I don't like often make reservations for things. It'll be like, hmm.
00:11:14
Speaker
you know, oh, you know, we're going to go to this place and we're going to kind of hang around this area. And if we found something that's good, cool. But I like planned this out. I like planned out timelines and everything. I covered it and I was like, this feel pretty cool. I did a good job. And like he was very happy. So that's like all that matters to me. I'm very, I'm very plan oriented. So like the idea of like doing a
00:11:40
Speaker
an itinerary and having it go off flawlessly is, yeah, I totally understand.
Spider-Man Saga and Comic Book Challenges
00:11:49
Speaker
So last time we took a quick look at what Ben was getting up to over on his side of the Spider-Man books and what was supposed to be a sort of epilogue to Maximum Clonage. He was leaving town before getting pulled back into the superhero gig for one last job, while at the same time adding a little bit more mystery and depth to his longtime friend, Seward Trainer.
00:12:06
Speaker
This episode, we're gonna dive into a two-part storyline time bomb and get a look at what's going on with Peter Parker after rededicating himself to Mary Jane and possibly even giving up on being Spider-Man altogether. So before we dive in, I wanted to read a little bit of Glenn Greenberg's comments from The Life of Riley.
00:12:28
Speaker
He states, Time Bomb was designed by Spider-Man group editor in chief, Bob Budiansky, and the core Spider-Man writers to set the stage for the big switchover to Ben Riley. By now, I think all of you are well aware of my feelings about how the clone saga had become horribly overextended, so I won't belabor that point here. The one saving grace about the Time Bomb storyline was that it was only two issues long rather than the usual month-long monstrosity that spanned all four Spider-Man titles.
00:12:57
Speaker
And side note, as someone who has read it, I agree. You know, as someone like, cause we're reading this in a different time in which these were sent out into the world. I didn't really fathom the fact that each little segment that we've been doing per episode took a month for people to get through. It was one, one issue per week, essentially. Yeah. I like didn't like fully
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah, because I was like, oh yeah, issues get out once a week or whatever. That is a month. I didn't comprehend that until you actually said that out loud. Because I've just been like, all right, I got to take 30, maybe 40 minutes out of my day to read, fully read this and see what's going on. I'm not just going to skim it.
00:13:53
Speaker
But yeah, that's a lot of time for a reader to just be dragged through. It's also a lot of money because a lot of these books are usually published monthly. So if you're reading Web of Spider-Man and only Web of Spider-Man, you would only be paying for that once a month. But because of the way that they were publishing it, it was every book. And if you wanted to understand what was going on, you had to buy every book.
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's just like a full on weekly expense. Like, yeah. Thank you. While we are on the subject of editors in the Spider-Man office, let's take a brief look at where we are in the behind the scenes nature of the storyline. Prior to Ben Riley's return, upper management at Marvel had dictated that Spider-Man had to do something similar in scope to DC's death of Superman storyline that had broken multiple sales records at the time.
00:14:43
Speaker
Terry Kavanaugh, one of the writers for Web of Spider-Man, had brought up the idea of bringing back the clone and suddenly the ball was rolling. Many of the creatives on the books felt that this would be a good opportunity to restore Spidey back to basics, which they felt was sorely needed since the stories had all been dark and convoluted. In particular, they wanted to get rid of Mary Jane to help free up Spidey for more stories involving romance.
00:15:09
Speaker
Spider-Man editor Mark Bernardo had said that the story was supposed to end in Amazing Spider-Man 400, which would leave Ben Riley as the original Peter Parker, allowing the Peter we have been following to leave with Mary Jane. Tom DeFalco, the editor-in-chief, approved starting the story and the clone saga had begun.
00:15:28
Speaker
And I don't think that that's crazy. I do think that a lot of the storylines prior to the Clone Saga had been really convoluted and dark, but I don't think that ended with the Clone Saga. Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like still everything that we're reading is convoluted and mildly dark.
00:15:47
Speaker
You've got Cain having premonitions of a woman's murder. You've got people questioning their identity and who they are, like as a human being, if they even are a human being. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it could be done really well, but I think there, there's a fine line to walk and they're not doing it. Like it keeps going silly and dark and silly and dark in a way that like it's tonal whiplash, at least for me.
00:16:17
Speaker
Yeah, and... Because he can't even call it dark comedy? No. That's like a whole different comment of himself. Because it's not even funny. No, it's not. Unfortunately.
00:16:33
Speaker
But as the story progressed, Tom DeFalco came up with the idea to have Mary Jane be pregnant, which would help Peter choose to leave superheroing for a family life, which makes sense. That's around the time that Marvel hit a huge financial crisis and the company nearly went bankrupt. This all stems from the speculator market at the time, as well as Marvel's expansive catalog being so expensive. I'm not sure how much we talked about that before, but this is like mid 90s where
00:17:00
Speaker
Everyone was buying every comic book. So like Marvel was just pushing out more and more just creating this huge glut in the industry But in reality a lot of these people are only buying number ones or whatever because they think it's going to end up being like it's they're gonna earn all of this money from having this like collectible but
00:17:22
Speaker
not every issue is going to be a collectible. So as these people are buying up and realizing they're not going to get the money that they want, they're going to stop buying comics. And if you're expanding your catalog, you're going to eventually have a shitload of stuff that no one's buying and you're going to be out all that money.
00:17:40
Speaker
Right. Because it's also, it's, there's more than just being number one that makes something a collectible. Um, they talked about it on the weekly planet before, or maybe it was, um, on a different podcast, but they were talking about, it might've been on do go on. I listened to a lot of Australian podcasts. Um, because I, I love the weekly planet boys and I love Nick Mesa and he just guesses on a lot of other Australian podcasts. And I'm like, I gotta keep hearing this man talk. But, um,
00:18:11
Speaker
Basically, they were talking about it was the story of Superman comics and the people that have written them. And there used to be just so many of the original run, like Superman comics, like so many of like the number one first appearance Superman. There were so many of them to the point that they basically valued as like nothing.
00:18:39
Speaker
People were using them to fill in holes in their walls and stuff like that. Something has to be in so much. It has to be valueless. And then over time, when it then becomes reappreciated and there's so little of it because people are just using it as whatever, does it actually become a valuable collectible? So you can't, in my eyes,
00:19:08
Speaker
thinking from an investment point of view, you can't just make something and think that it's going to instantly gratify the collectible value because it hasn't been a part of history yet. I think this is the most intellectual thing I've ever said in my entire life and I can't believe it's on this fucking channel. What a time. It's the sunglasses. The sunglasses made me smart.
00:19:37
Speaker
Well, because of all of what we just went over, the consequences to all of this is that DeFalco was fired from being editor-in-chief and the comics were split into five categories with Bob Budiansky as the editor-in-chief of Spider-Man comics. That's kind of around where we are, right? So after Amazing Spider-Man 400 failed to end the clone saga and lead into the Mark of Cain story,
00:20:03
Speaker
Sales had actually started to climb for the Spider-Man series as everyone was interested in seeing what was going to happen next. At this point, Aunt May had died and Peter was sent to prison, so public interest was pretty high. Like, what can you do with this book if this is where you're going with it? That makes it a more like valued and collectible thing. Again, like if you're making a bunch of number one things,
00:20:26
Speaker
It doesn't mean that the stories are going to be good. The thing also has to be like of quality or like, again, have some sort of major impact on like product or the industry. Like Superman against such an icon. So of course his number one is going to be like now of huge value. Not a ton left and pop culture made him blow up.
00:20:52
Speaker
I never knew the Clone Saga existed. I knew who Spider-Man was before this podcast because again, he's a huge part of pop culture. But this story over time has just become so shit that it doesn't have a ton of value. So it's either maybe or maybe it's become just the worst that because it's so bad people want to buy it now,
00:21:19
Speaker
I do think that there is something to be said there. I think it has- It has to be an extreme though. It can't just be some mundane thing. And I would say for Amazing Spider-Man 400, I have that comic. There is the only reason why- But again, because it has such a big impact. That's where she died. It had a big impact. I think that was really well written. And the only reason why I don't think it is more of a collectible is because there were so many printed. There needs to be a scarcity involved.
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, people haven't shoved it in their walls yet. Right. But because of the growing number of sales during this time where people were actually genuinely interested in what the fuck was going to happen, the writers were encouraged to keep the clone stories going. So now we have marketing and sales saying like, you got to keep this going. You can't just stop here.
00:22:09
Speaker
With maximum clonage, the intent was to finally wrap up the storyline and get Ben as the main Spider-Man for all the books. However, the story kept changing to the point that many of the clone storylines never actually concluded. Like we talked about Gwen Stacy, the Gwen Stacy clone was supposed to die and instead they just wrote her out. So she's still out there somewhere. And like that's technically a dangling plot thread for this.
00:22:35
Speaker
And we haven't heard from like Scryer or Judas Traveler in a while or, you know, any of those. So what's up with them? Because they were, I guess, supposed to be like a big part as well. You know, they get Peter Parker out of prison. I think there is like something to be said, like they could be a continuing threat throughout, but like,
00:23:05
Speaker
Yeah. There, there's a lot of like weird stuff. Like you could wrap up the clones and then have Judas traveler be like the next big thing, you know, cause they didn't even effectively do that stuff, you know, how he knows like the bigger picture of everything. And, but then he just goes missing for a long time and it's just kind of weird.
00:23:28
Speaker
But this is sort of where we are now, with each book having their own editor and all Spider-Man books reporting to Bob Budiansky. And this will be the status quo for a while as Marvel tries desperately to figure out what they want to do. But we had talked in a previous episode a little bit about what
00:23:45
Speaker
the editorial, like where we are with that. Like we did have the editor in chief was fired. And they're like, they did put a new editor in charge of Spider-Man, but it is not a lot of it is coming directly from consequences of the storyline because as far as Spider-Man comics and like marketing is concerned, it's doing well.
00:24:13
Speaker
because people want to know what the fuck is going to happen. It doesn't mean it's good. It just means it's selling well. Yeah. So that brings us all the way to spectacular Spider-Man volume one, number two 28, which is written by Tom DeFalco and Todd DeZago, penciled by salvage Emma inked by Bill Sinkevich, colored by John Kalis and Malibu color, lettered by Klim Robbins and edited by Eric fine.
Comic Book Art Styles Discussion
00:24:38
Speaker
We've talked a little bit before about Sal Buscema and Bill Sinkiewicz's artwork not really meshing well. I'm going to keep bringing that up every time I have to read one of their books because it really doesn't mesh well. Buscema's blocky and cartoony style gets muddied and weighed down by Sinkiewicz's scratchy and extremely rendered inks. That's still the case here, but I do feel that there are several scenes that actually make more sense in this book than they normally do.
00:25:04
Speaker
Like that blend of styles kind of works, but it's sort of the same as like when we were talking about like Dr. Octopus's death. It's because of the nature of that story, not because of like, not because of Spider-Man, but because of that specific story working. Yeah.
00:25:26
Speaker
This comic begins with Peter having a nightmare, which is part of why I think it works in this situation. Kane is chasing after Mary Jane, Peter tries to stop him, only for Kane to reveal that Peter is going to be the one to kill her, which causes him to wake up screaming. Throughout the next day, Pete keeps seeing the Jackals image, which causes him to almost call Seaward Trainer because he's just like going like, oh no, what's going on with me? Seaward Trainer might know.
00:25:53
Speaker
But he's rendered unconscious from an intense burst of mental pain. That's when the jackal appears and tells him that before he died, he had triggered a genetic implant that would command Peter to kill the person he loves the most. So it's like a hallucination. But you just see like the jackal just suddenly appears before him. Right. Naturally, after hearing this, Peter goes home to wait for his wife.
00:26:19
Speaker
Cause like, of course, you know, you're told the person that you're going to kill is the person you love the most. And so you go home and wait for your wife to get there. Like that's what. Okay. Now hold on a minute. Have you ever had a nightmare about your partner? Like, and they do something that upsets you in your dream. Have you ever had? Okay. Now I've done the bad thing.
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, now when you wake up sometimes, because I am a person who is very like vivid dreams. Like sometimes I can like feel what's happening or like, you know, the senses are too strong sometimes. Sometimes it's too real. Sometimes I have nightmares where Max says or does a really mean thing to me.
00:27:09
Speaker
And, you know, it feels real. You get upset, you get freaked out. And then I wake up and basically what I have to do sometimes is I have to like, the only way I can kind of chill out from the experience is I have to talk to the person.
00:27:27
Speaker
not about the dream itself, but just have a conversation with them to get a vibe check on who they are in reality again, to then be like, oh, it's okay. We're fine. That was totally a dream. This person is normal. So I guess that makes sense, wanting to try to check in. He's just like, I gotta get home. I gotta vibe check my wife. Make sure there's no immediate weird tension.
00:27:54
Speaker
As Mary Jane gets home, Peter is waiting for her in a dark room. And as soon as she walks in, he yells at her to leave and run away. So she's like... Okay, well, that is not what I'm saying to do.
00:28:11
Speaker
Well, I can see things may be changing for him. You know, like you're like in a good spot, but then seeing her, you're like, Oh no, this is like vibe. Check has not passed. Like we need to, we need to get out of this situation murder feelings. Mary Jane is able to escape and rather than call the Avengers of the fantastic four for extremely contrived reasons, she calls the new warriors.
Peter Parker's Struggle and Storyline
00:28:37
Speaker
She has apparently been reading their book because she knows Ben has been hanging out with them and she thinks Ben is the only one who can help. The comic ends with Spider-Man finally catching up to Mary Jane just as the new warriors arrive. So that's the end of part one. That's what we got. Wait, so Spider-Man, so Peter Parker is now going after his wife who he told to run away. I'm afraid I'm going to kill you. Why is he chasing her?
00:29:07
Speaker
He can't help himself. It's like, it's just a, a, an urge that he can't stop. To murder her. To murder her. Apparently, according to the Jackal, it's like he programmed it into his DNA that upon. So essentially when the Jackal died, he like said a specific thing before he died and that is supposed to be a mental trigger. Okay. So like he actually does have a mental trigger. It's not him just being manipulated into thinking he's like a sleeper agent.
00:29:36
Speaker
According to this comic book, yes. I'm assuming there's like some sort of like some hypnosis or something involved. I don't know. I don't know. Now the new warriors continued involvement with the Spider-Man comics is simply due to them like falling under the same editorial bracket that we discussed earlier. You know, Marvel being split into five different groups. You have Bob Budiansky in charge of Spider-Man. Somehow new warriors got looped into that.
00:30:02
Speaker
And because of this, Ben has been showing up in their book and helping out, continuing to have the new warriors pop up in a Spider-Man book was just a simple way of getting them more exposure to readers. So like, I mean, it makes sense, but it's kind of silly. It's kind of dumb, but like, okay, I guess. Now, do you remember, maybe not, but like a little while ago we discussed Peter accidentally slapping his wife in a fit of rage.
00:30:30
Speaker
Oh, yes. Cause he finds out that he's a clone and he's like grappling with it and he's grappling physically with Ben, but then Mary Jane steps in and like kind of caught in the crossfire. She gets like a pad. Yeah. Right. So this is one of those situations where I don't know if you realize this, that was technically two issues ago.
00:30:56
Speaker
So that would be like two months in real life. Right. But it's because of the way that like the comics are being told in parts over different issues. It was two issues of spectacular Spider-Man.
00:31:11
Speaker
So you know what I mean? Oh, that's so weird. It drives me crazy. I hate how this whole saga is set up. I think I've said it before, but juggling the four different titles drives me insane. It's very weird. Wait for a couple of episodes because it's going to get fun.
00:31:36
Speaker
Now the reason this story, you might think it might be a little bit weird because like they had a huge blow up over the fact that he accidentally hit his wife and that was like a big issue and they didn't want to accidentally like promote whether real or fake like violence against women. This story is all about Peter trying to murder his wife.
00:32:01
Speaker
You might think it's a little weird that this got published, but the actual reason for that is because at the time that they published Spider-Man 2.26 and that being the story and that becoming a problem, this one was already so far along in production that they couldn't really change much about it. Now, the one thing that they did change, at least according to Glenn Greenberg, was that they changed the cover of the comic book because in this one it's like,
00:32:31
Speaker
angry Peter Parker holding on to Mary Jane, but in the original one, it's like basically the same image, but he's holding a fist in one hand and he's holding her wrist in the other, so it looks more violent, but they changed it a little different for this. But that brings us all the way to Web of Spider-Man volume one, number 129, which was also written by Tom DeFalco and Todd DeZago.
00:32:59
Speaker
This time though, it's penciled by Steve Butler, inked by Randy Emberlin, colored by Kevin Tinsley and Malibu Color, leaded by Steve Dutrow and edited by Eric Fine. This is actually going to be pretty simple to get through. This was like one of the fastest reads I have had, which is good because I technically read this months ago and did not remember a fucking thing about it. So I went back until I was halfway through this story before I was like, I've read this.
00:33:29
Speaker
I remember parts of this now. I've been here before. Now the main story beats really kick in for the comic when Mary Jane runs into Ben. She quickly fills him in on what's happening with Peter and Ben rushes off to try to stop him. Mary Jane tries to escape in a taxi, but because of the superhero nonsense going on, the driver runs away and MJ is forced to just get behind the wheel and try to drive the taxi herself.
00:33:56
Speaker
Ben can't stop Peter, so he instead relies on slowing him down to help Mary Jane get a head start. Peter chases her all the way to Aunt May's house where MJ surrounds herself with photos of their family and like the years that they spent together. She tells him that she believes he can break the programming, but she forgives him if he can't because she'd rather die in a house full of memories than anywhere else, which is kind of sweet. This poor woman.
00:34:26
Speaker
Peter is overloaded by all the memories and he breaks down crying in Mary Jane's arms. And that is the end of Web of Spider-Man, volume one, number 129. Oh, great. Okay. So Mary Jane doesn't die yet? No. She gambled on all of the memories being enough to like override whatever programming Peter had. And apparently that worked. He just started crying.
00:34:53
Speaker
And she, she comforts him, which is pretty sweet. I mean, it's a very simple, a lot of running. That's all it is. Yeah, I can picture that. Very, very chase scene heavy. Okay. Cool. Mary Jane's not dead. She is one of my favorite characters. Probably is my favorite character in this whole.
00:35:19
Speaker
Which is one of the things that I thought was interesting when they were talking about how they wanted to get rid of Mary Jane. Yeah, that is kind of the weird thing, isn't it? Because she is the most compelling character. Like, especially supporting-wise. Supporting-wise, definitely. And they're like, oh, this really brings down Spider-Man. And it's like, no, you wouldn't have Spider-Man if you didn't have her, at least right now.
00:35:46
Speaker
In the book, I see Ben and Mary Jane as being the most compelling characters. Like I actually give a shit and I want to read about them. Yeah. Which is fascinating because not to like tip my hat to like too much, but in modern comics, I kind of hate both of them.
Character Dynamics: Ben Riley and Mary Jane
00:36:08
Speaker
But I love Ben and I love Mary Jane in this run. They make sense. They are genuinely good characters that their decisions are based upon the things that they have gone through versus just, we have to have a thing happen. Yeah. No, that definitely makes sense.
00:36:33
Speaker
On the topic of Time Bomb, Glenn Greenberg had stated that the main thrust behind Time Bomb was to give Peter a reason to give up being Spider-Man and leave New York with Mary Jane. After all, the fact that he was apparently the clone did not necessarily mean that he had to give up the superhero identity he had held for the past years, which you and I had talked about in a previous episode. Like why are they even bothering to say who gets to be Spider-Man? Like both be Spider-Man?
00:37:01
Speaker
The other thing that also, um, I don't want to like totally veer off of what you're going to be saying, but a question that I've been having with the issue just summarized essentially is Mary Jane runs into Ben Riley in New York. So my question is a lot of like, when is this happening? Because they decided.
00:37:26
Speaker
in what we just, like last episode, that like Ben Riley is the one that is supposed to leave New York. They decided that already, like, I guess in the time of the past, like over a month ago, or a month ago, I don't know. And he does leave, he goes to Vermont.
00:37:44
Speaker
And I get that he had to go back to New York to help Dr. Seaward. But it did not seem like he was there that long. And then he had just the side quest of the vulture stopping. And it ends there. It's just, oh, I gotta run back real quick. I gotta save my friend one more time. You know, classic action style. So when is this happening? Is this before?
00:38:13
Speaker
I'm assuming it's after what you read. Oh my God, I just stopped the vulture man. I'm so tired. I'm just going to get a cup of coffee and leave New York. Oh, hello Mary Jane. Do you need me to stop you from being murdered? Sure. I guess I have another 45 minutes. Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure that's exactly like the way that it plays out. I don't know for sure.
00:38:42
Speaker
Um, and I don't know if the editors were like passing notes on like timelines at the time. So it might've just been like, they just assumed that Ben was still in New York full time. Yeah. Cause that's the weird thing to me is they already decided this thing. I get that there was a side track, like had to go back real quick. I would really have loved if it was
00:39:07
Speaker
Like, Ben Riley, you gotta help me. And he's like, add a kiosk, getting a hot dog. Oh, I was just getting a snack before I left, but anything for you, old friend. Right. I would have loved to say, maybe mention that he was on his way out, but had to stay again to help.
00:39:26
Speaker
But just mainly just so I could understand me, I've gone back to simpleton. I had all of my IQ used for the collectible philosophy thing. And now I'm like, I don't know where we are. I don't know. I think it's a thing where you're just expected to sort of do the mental retconning yourself. I guess so, yeah. How does this fit in? I mean, there are places online that sort of do a chronology of,
00:39:54
Speaker
When I'm reading the X-Men, I usually use an X-Men chronology website that tells you, at what point does a specific book take place? Because even though it has flashbacks, you're supposed to know those flashbacks.
00:40:11
Speaker
because sometimes I mean sometimes it's kind of obvious you know with the last one it was very much like it picks up pretty instantaneous between issues because the vulture thing was happening at the same time as the doctor saving and then he runs into the crime scene from the last issue that seems pretty clear and it's not like they really like um
00:40:35
Speaker
stated it obviously. They used just mainly visuals and being, oh, here's a crime scene with evidence of the vulture doing that crime of the last issue. So you can kind of tell like, okay, this is like when it's happening. These things are very similar. Cool. Got it. It's sometimes just in between the very big chapters where it's how much time has really passed because sometimes it feels like it could either be
00:41:02
Speaker
same day within a day or months. And sometimes I'm just, am I supposed to? And then they maybe mentioned something that happened in the months between that we haven't heard about and it gets kind of weird. So.
00:41:21
Speaker
Well, I mean, keep in mind the original Clone Saga took in real world time. It was 20 years prior to this, but in comic book time, it's five years. So that means that every book that was published within that 20 years has to fit in within a five year timeframe.
00:41:39
Speaker
Right, which is just to me sometimes super bizarre. But I guess that's just the way that publishing works because you have a whole book series, like full on books where it's just, you know, sometimes the sequel doesn't come out for years, but the story picks up where it left off or, you know, but sometimes I feel like the Harry Potter books all take place in the nineties, even though they finished publishing
00:42:09
Speaker
in the early 2000s. Yeah. I think though with novels, oftentimes though, when you have a series of books, I feel like they pick up better
00:42:24
Speaker
and giving you the context on where you're at. Because with Harry Potter, with the ones that I had read when I was younger, you knew based on how they described the setting and everything in the activities they were doing, it was generally the book started, you know, the summer or a couple days before he was going into his next year of school. And with like Percy Jackson, you know, it started with
00:42:52
Speaker
He's in this grade. This thing happens. He's got to go back to camp. So you can get a range of how old he is. You know, stuff like that with I read like James Patterson books a lot. You know, it's not the most like intellectual thing. They're very quick reads. But you know, like.
00:43:13
Speaker
this happened after this. It's in chronological order and it's pretty like clear what wounds are fresh and what aren't, you know, stuff like that. Sometimes I just can't tell with the clone saga. Yeah. I think it's just the way that it's written. It doesn't quite like, and it could be because there are different writers, you know, on each book. So you don't really have the same thought process going into like the events.
00:43:42
Speaker
true. But I want to get back to a little bit of what Glenn Greenberg had been saying. Yes, because I just had that question. I liked what you had to say. It is a good question and it's a good thing to call out. It's just that he had been talking about how this was supposed to clear the way for Peter to leave New York and Ben to be the one taking taking his place, which
Insights on 'Time Bomb' Storyline
00:44:12
Speaker
we've now had like maximum clonage omega kind of alluded to that. And then, uh, what was it? Uh, the exiled or exiled, like that was also supposed to, but like in the opposite direction. So now we're finally like trying to get this done.
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah, in Exile, they said, okay, Ben Riley decides he's going to leave because Peter Parker already has a family and roots down here because he's married and having a child. So don't bother him with the stress of moving. Move this solo guy. That's what we literally talked about last episode. So it's weird that they're now just like, let's change it.
00:44:55
Speaker
Let's change the thought process was Ben would try to be the one that like gives give something up for Peter, but then it doesn't work. Right. And in this this kind of it makes sense. I kind of like that. And it kind of works for Ben's character. You know, now what Glenn Greenberg was saying, though, was that he doesn't necessarily believe that time bomb completely accomplished the goal of setting up a reason for Peter to leave.
00:45:25
Speaker
And I'm gonna continue quoting him. Other than having Peter place MJ in jeopardy and have to overcome some retcon mental programming from the jackal, there's nothing in this story that clearly leads Peter and MJ to decide to leave New York. At this point though, I was just glad to see the light at the end of the tunnel and was looking forward to seeing the new era of Spider-Man begin. But the ghost of Age of Apocalypse was still upon us and Marvel's marketing department reared its ugly head once again.
00:45:53
Speaker
Now, what Glenn means by this, we're going to cover in a future episode because the Spider-Man books are about to get even more complicated. Well, and then the other thing, I don't, I agree and disagree with what Glenn kinda says. Glenn Greenberg? Yeah. I agree in the sense that it's like they didn't really give a read.
00:46:17
Speaker
Well, they kind of gave a reason, you know. I think it makes sense for Peter to say it's time for me to go. Yeah, because he has so much association of being Spider-Man there and the Jackal and Kane have given him so much trouble and have really explicitly jeopardized his outside life. Kind of unlike, from my knowledge, other villains have. I think this has a more profound effect.
00:46:47
Speaker
Maybe I mean, I would say the green goblin maybe is like the green goblin and venom have like had a big impact on Peter's personal life outside of his superhero stuff. But that's because they knew who he was and did things to target those, like that aspect of his life. And so that's kind of what the jackals doing too. Exactly. So, you know,
00:47:10
Speaker
And now that his wife is expecting, there's even more reason to kind of take a step back from, but that's the step back from being a superhero. And I guess, you know, if you're in the place where you constantly associate being a superhero, then there's a reason to move. But it's not as though they had a conversation or highlighted that.
00:47:36
Speaker
It was just, oh no, I got sleeper agent into killing my wife. That's crazy. But, you know, you also went to Pennsylvania where the Jackal used to live. So I guess it could have happened there too.
00:47:52
Speaker
I can see maybe wanting to just like get a new fresh start somewhere where things are a little different. And I like, I can see this setting the stage for that. I don't think that they actually made that super clear in the book. No. And I totally agree with that. Yeah. I think that like, I don't know about your next reading. Maybe that will be like an, or maybe it's mind the impetus for Peter to say, fuck it.
00:48:21
Speaker
I'm done, and we're going somewhere else. Now, the part about the age of apocalypse I find really interesting, because I didn't factor, like, I know what Glenn Greenberg's talking about.
Spider-Man Comics Marketing Changes
00:48:35
Speaker
And I didn't. Well, I can give you, like, it's not a huge spoiler, like, story-wise, what's going on, but it does change marketing about what's going on. We have coming up,
00:48:50
Speaker
a relaunch of every Spider-Man book. But as like instead of Amazing Spider-Man, it's going to be the Amazing Scarlet Spider. And so each book is going to be retitled and given a new number one for only a handful of issues. And then it's going to go back to being Amazing Spider-Man.
00:49:15
Speaker
that just make a Scarlet Spider lie in general. Why do you have to read the lines of that? The idea would be because Ben is supposed to be taking over,
00:49:30
Speaker
it's going to be this huge marketing thing like, say, Age of Apocalypse Alpha or Maximum Clonage Alpha, where it's a big number one that you have to get, but then once you're done with those, I think it's four issues per book, once you're done with those four issues, it just goes back to being Amazing Spider-Man because
00:49:55
Speaker
You have like a certain legacy numbering there and you want Ben to be Spider-Man, not Scarlet Spider. No. But he's only known as Scarlet Spider right now. I'm sorry. As an audience member and as maybe a consumer, that doesn't make sense.
Comparing Spider-Man and Dr. Who Webisodes
00:50:14
Speaker
Like it, I guess it kind of does, but it doesn't. It's just, I feel like it makes the reading experience more confusing.
00:50:23
Speaker
You know what? I didn't actually think about this until just now, but Austin and I are rewatching a lot of Old Doctor Who. And when I say old, I mean like the new Doctor Who, but from years ago. I've watched a lot of Classic Doctor Who and I still love Classic Doctor Who, but in the newer stuff we've been rewatching, because she gave up watching at a certain point, and I gave up watching way after that.
00:50:52
Speaker
So I was like, Oh no, there's some really fun, interesting stuff. And we both really got back into Dr. Who with like Russell T Davies coming back, having like a whole new thing going on. It's really interesting. So we're trying to like bridge that gap. But one of the things that I think is really interesting is that around season six, season seven of the new Dr. Who, they started doing webisodes
00:51:19
Speaker
of tiny stories that would lead into the episode that was being released, where there would be things that happened between episodes. And it's funny because you don't necessarily need to watch them, but they do provide some context to some of the story that's going on.
00:51:39
Speaker
And I just remember getting to certain points and being like, wow, it feels like not a lot has happened between these characters. And that's because they happen in the in-between stuff that was really solely online. And it's like, I don't give a shit to go and hunt that down. You're making it harder for me to get the full story. Especially when a lot of context is behind a paywall now.
00:52:05
Speaker
And I don't know if their webisodes are behind like a paywall, kind of like when people get- You know what? I didn't even think about it. It might be only on iPlayer, which you can't watch outside of England. Yeah. And a lot of- I don't know. A lot of like podcasts and YouTube channels will do like similar things. It's, oh, if you want extra context on this thing, or you want to hear more details about the topic that we're discussing in this already detailed thing, go pay more money.
00:52:36
Speaker
to listen to it or to get more context. So you're like a true fan who understands all the stuff. So I just, I never liked, I don't like elitist fandom situations. Where it's like you have to buy extra and extra just to keep getting kind of like almost
00:53:01
Speaker
what ends up making it a fuller experience. If you want the product to be a good experience, make it inherently a good experience. And then if you want to add extra things as little treats, make them exactly that, little treats. That if people want to pay extra for a little thing, go for it. I was just about to say, there is a podcast I pay for to get the added content, but the main informational
00:53:31
Speaker
educational, higher brain functioning part of the show is free. It's the dumb, we're just gonna sit around and talk about stupid shit that you pay for. And I like the dumb, sit around, talk about stupid shit, so I'll pay for it. Yeah, and that's totally one thing.
00:53:52
Speaker
I don't know how many people listen to this podcast and I don't know how many you're fans of certain things. So maybe I'll keep my mouth shut, but I'll tell you later who I'm.
00:54:06
Speaker
who I think about is a lot of people I think that don't actually need the money but are constantly trying to optimize by making something that's being collectible when really in fact you're totally ripping off your fan base. That is mainly what I'm thinking of. And I think a lot of marketing faces that have all the resources and the money are mainly the people that are doing that.
00:54:32
Speaker
Well, it's interesting you say that because originally when I had put this podcast out, I had a Patreon set up and stuff like that in order to get money. But that was because at the time it was a cost sink from... I mean, it's still kind of a cost... We don't make money off of this show. No.
00:54:54
Speaker
In terms of what I was bringing in income wise and the amount being paid in order to keep our website up, keep the servers going, things like that.
00:55:10
Speaker
a good percentage of my income and it was like, not necessarily incredibly difficult, but it was a thing that I would like, if anyone wanted to give me money in order to help that, absolutely. Also some of these books are crazy expensive, but I found ways around that too. But as like part of my decision to take away Patreon and just go to like, if you want to donate a few dollars at like our, on the website, there's the like,
00:55:39
Speaker
cup of coffee thing. Part of my impetus to do that is I've started making more money and I don't need it to offset our costs as much. And I think it's better if people want to be able to give me $2 to go towards server costs or whatever.
00:56:00
Speaker
shouldn't have you shouldn't be locked into a subscription base because like we're gonna give you this content no matter what like so casual and yeah like
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:56:12
Speaker
it shouldn't be an obligation to people who listen or for you know comics for people who read if it is just a casual thing you know you shouldn't be under some kind of obligation especially if the other side really isn't
00:56:28
Speaker
You know, if it's all voluntary and like, that's fine, but silly, silly. Well, I mean, so we've talked about time bomb and we've gotten into a bunch of different things. I don't really have much more to go over. Is there anything you want to add to this? Literally three minutes under an hour. I'm so impressed with us.
00:56:56
Speaker
We finally figured out a method that works for us. And this was less than half of the clone saga, which is still quite a bit of clones. All right. So I'm just going to wrap things up. Then you can find more information at comically pedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedantic cast new episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google podcast, Spotify, and at comically pedantic.com.
00:57:25
Speaker
If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comic league pedantic at gmail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question red on the air. And don't forget, we still own fuck comics gate.com. If you'd like to send a donation to the games and online harassment hotline, we will be back soon with another deep dive into the world of comics, but until then you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.