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Spider-Man Clone Saga: Aftershocks
40 Plays1 year ago
Derek and Corinne learn about the fallout of Peter's recent arrest while Ben and Mary Jane finally sit down and talk.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Derick L. Chase, and joining me on this episode, as always, is the wonderful Corinne Levy. It's me. Hi.
A Bright Spot Amidst Difficulty
00:00:27
Speaker
I don't think it's a secret that you and I, look, we talk a little bit before we start the show, and you kind of just unloaded a lot of bad stuff that happened today. So I'm going to start it off with asking you, what is a bright spot that you have a good start to this?
00:00:43
Speaker
Um, yeah, for some context, I literally, I had to go to the DMV today, which is not a good experience for anybody ever because like bureaucracy is quite a time. Um, but I had an extra special shitty time at the DMV. It started off real, I was like too preface. I had a nice lady that I started working with.
00:01:05
Speaker
And then as it progressed, as I had to go do other things at the DMV, the people there got shittier and shittier. I was like, this is really sad. It was a really humbling experience. I had to think a lot about myself after that time. And I essentially just ranted entirely for like five minutes about how terrible my experience was. And then I was like, anyway, back to Spider-Man.
00:01:31
Speaker
But my bright spot is gonna be my cat. He's a good boy. I love him.
00:01:41
Speaker
Max is great too. Don't get me wrong. I love him very much. He's my bright spot too, actually, because we went to a nice dinner yesterday and we had a real hoot. Conversation was A1. The food was very good. I picked a nice wine to go with it. That was a great time. I will say that was like 10 out of 10. I hope we do that again.
00:02:04
Speaker
Um, but also just my cat. My cat is with me at the moment, every day, all day, because we're both stuck in the house. Um, and he keeps me sane. He's just a good little boy. And sometimes I wake up and he's just like asleep on my tongue. And I'm like, wow, I feel so maternal. So my cat, my cat is the answer to all.
00:02:31
Speaker
That's a, I mean, that's a good one. I mean, I have, uh, two cats here that have become very, uh, needy when it comes to attention. If I'm awake at all, they come chirping and running into the room. And it's fun except for I've one who is very aggressive about being held. He will walk up and just, uh, like basically headbutt you until you pick him up.
00:03:02
Speaker
Well, I think Oliver, he is not super aggressive when it comes to attention, but I think it's because Max and I are so ready to give him attention. We're just like, oh boy, the cat. We are 10 out of 10 cat parents. I don't mean to toot my horn, but root, toot, toot.
00:03:23
Speaker
Um, cause we just love to give him attention and like sometimes I'll pick him up and I'll just stand in the doorway, like talking to Max for like 10 minutes and the cat stays there. Like obviously he is a cat. So some days he'll just be like, get away from me. But the past couple of days, he's just been like following me around and like, this is great. I'm truly.
00:03:51
Speaker
milking this up as much as I can until he goes into his teenage boy phase where he's like, mom, get away from me. And then I will be heartbroken again. But I'm not there yet, so we're good. That's good. What about you? I was thinking about this because there's a few different things that I feel like I could go with. I was very close to saying,
00:04:20
Speaker
I found today Skittles makes gummies. And like the two things that I love the most when it comes to candy are any gummy and Skittles. So the fact that those two are together is quite a highlight for me. It's also a low light because I have a hard time like stopping eating them. So would you pick like a Skittle over like a chocolate?
00:04:50
Speaker
Yes, any day. Interesting, because I am the opposite. When I was younger, I used to really like starburst and like licorice and things like that. And now I'm like, I'm very limited on the times that I've wanted something like a fruity candy.
00:05:06
Speaker
I am all for fruity candies, but like chocolate, it's I'm, I've never been very big on like, I like chocolate. It's fine, but I am, I'm super into any, any sort of, of, uh, fruit style. Candy. I think they're so good. One of my favorite things I go to the AMC near me and I get the kids pack because it is a, like, it's a small drink.
00:05:33
Speaker
It is a small amount of popcorn, and it comes with fruit snacks. It is the perfect combo. Oh, but I do love fruit snacks. But to me, they're not a candy. They're a snack.
00:05:44
Speaker
Uh, well, okay. But I mean, to me, like, so I go and we usually get kid, uh, like kid packs for me and Austin. And like, she doesn't really want them. So I end up with her fruit snacks. That's like the, that's like the how I met your mother, olives thing. Yeah. But like, I hate olives, but somebody always has a jar of olives.
Spider-Man's Clone Saga Chaos
00:06:08
Speaker
The, the clone saga has so far been a relatively weird, but slow story that we've been going through. It wasn't until smoke and mirrors where things really kicked into high gear and mystery upon mystery was thrown at the reader with Peter getting his life together and Ben trying to do the same. It of course had to be upended with Aunt May dying and Peter immediately being arrested for murder, something that we, the audience know must have been perpetrated by a clone.
00:06:35
Speaker
Speaking of clones, there's a third Parker that we don't even know anything about, and it was suddenly introduced as either another clone or the original Peter Parker. We don't know. We've also made it canon that he will be known to us as P3PO. That's right. Yes. So P3PO is now in the mix. We got Ben, we got Peter, we got P3PO, and maybe Cain? We don't know.
00:07:02
Speaker
I mean, like they've made, they have given us no context as to where Cain came from or how he's like legitimately related to things. Like at all, like there's never been like a, they've like alluded to like him and Ben Riley like interacting five years ago in like
00:07:27
Speaker
while he's exiled. But there's never been a point where we witness any moments from his exile period. So it's all really limited. But then they'll just throw in context, not context clues, but random potential foreshadowing of
00:07:50
Speaker
Potential foreshadowing is a great way of putting that. It's kind of just throwing things at the wall and being like, will we get around to this? We don't know. But it's there so that someone at some point might pick it up and do something with it.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah, like, I mean, like, I mean, it's obviously very huge that we just had Peter Parker get arrested in the last thing. But that's like the only like now that's the first like major thing, arguably, that the detective side of the story has done. Because otherwise, it's just been like they get Detective Raven in to New York. He looks at some pictures. And then they automatically start like
00:08:34
Speaker
making a warrant and this happens like their cameos happen like once every like I don't know like three storyline kind of things like it's it's very sparse and now suddenly they're just like okay we're putting them in the forefront now so like I hope that if anything we're just gonna get more context for my least favorite character so hopefully I can change my mind about them but I don't know
00:09:01
Speaker
One of the things I do like about that kind of storytelling is one of my favorite style of ongoing narrative structures is to have like a main story and then have something simmering in the background so that when the main plot finishes, you have something ready to go. Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
I don't think it's being done great. I don't think it's being done terribly. I just don't think it's being done great in this series.
00:09:39
Speaker
I just started going back and reading the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comics from IDW. I've read them before, but I wanted to go back and read a little bit more of it because I wanted to see if I could get a little further in the series than I was. And I wanted some of that background information. And it is done so much better. And I mean, granted this like 20 years later.
00:10:02
Speaker
But the way that we get to the way that it's structured is they slow down and they focus on the characters and they let them kind of do what they're doing and you just get hints at things. So if you were to read the first six issues or like what, four or five issues, something like that of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comic books put out by IDW, you would have
00:10:31
Speaker
a story that's going on in the present day with flashbacks to things that happened over a year ago. And still you don't get a full origin for the characters until like the very last issue in that series. And it's because you kind of have like the action driving things, but you're able to slow down and let characters interact and get to care about them.
00:10:57
Speaker
And then you go back and fill in some of those details, but it's not like, it's clear that it was there to begin with. It's like, no one was writing this and going, we'll, we'll figure it out later. You know? Yeah. And like, you know, I like exposition all the time is the boring way to write a story. So like, you know, and I, I am aware of that and I love like a good mystery. Like I am a sucker for a thriller.
00:11:24
Speaker
where you don't have any of the, you kind of just slowly get answers as you go along. But either way, information, whether it's about the past of the characters or the present of the characters, that all gets revealed to you.
00:11:44
Speaker
Slowly, you know, in a good like mystery or a thriller or just like any character development kind of thing. And with Kane, we haven't had that. We just like are like, okay, he's a guy. He kind of has the same DNA. And there's no hints.
00:12:06
Speaker
of like his past, like what he's been doing. And he gets weird flashbacks of a thing. And it's like, well, why does that matter? I don't think they have given him anything to do that is that interesting. No, they haven't. Like he's been killing off characters and he's been fighting Ben, but we don't know or care why he's doing these things. Exactly. So yeah.
00:12:29
Speaker
But anyway, that brings us all the way up to Spider-Man volume one, number 57, which was written by Howard Mackey, penciled by John Romita Jr., inked by Joe Rubinstein, colored by Kevin Tinsley, and lettered by Richard Starks and Comi-Craft.
00:12:46
Speaker
Now, this is a different team than we've had before. And I want to point out that this issue sees John Romita Jr. and Joe Rubinstein step in for the art duties. Uh, the rest of the team is pretty much the same and John's art style may not be for everyone, but I have to admit that this particular era of blocky Spidey fun was always a favorite of mine. So I was extremely happy to see John Romita Jr.
00:13:11
Speaker
doing some of the art on this. No offense to Tom Lyle, because I think he's great, he's fine. But there is something I think special about John Romita Jr.'s art style, specifically in this era, that I really love, and it was so much fun to see him on this book. I don't know if you know his style,
00:13:39
Speaker
And it changes over the years. So like every couple of years, it's going to be slight, slightly different, but it is very blocky and fun. And it's, it's, I think it holds a lot of weight to it. Uh, and he tends to be.
00:13:55
Speaker
Really good at driving a story and so like it's not like he's not going to spend 14 hours getting into like the details of like how this thing looks Is it dynamic and does it tell the point he wants to tell and he moves on and I like that, you know, okay
00:14:12
Speaker
So we started the issue directly after Peter has been arrested in Ben with his hair being absolutely immaculately drawn by Romita. It is like a cloth this man has, it is wonderful. His hair grows between issues and that's like a continuity issue, but it is like, he has a fantastic hairstyle in this. Yeah, I mean like they've kept him with the same look for a very long
00:14:42
Speaker
I think the whole time, for me at least. I feel like I always see him wearing, you know, the same hairstyle and almost always the same outfit. Yeah, and I mean, we don't really get much of a change there because he's kind of wearing his Scarlet Spider costume, but he, you know, maskless in this instance. No, I mean like when he's like Ben Riley, Ben Riley. He is always, I think he only has
00:15:11
Speaker
one pair of clothes. Yeah, probably. Which either he smells really gnarly or he's got a big laundry budget. It could be both. Or he washes in the sink. I don't know. I could be wrong. Anyway. So Ben is with Mary Jane. He's offering to help her after seeing Peter be arrested. And overcome with anger, she blames Ben for Peter's arrest and slaps him across the face.
00:15:39
Speaker
And I want to point out, showing extreme understanding, Ben says he's going to help with Peter's issues with or without Mary Jane and leaves, reminding her that he can't help that he looks just like her husband. So he's kind of like, look, you might be mad at me for this thing. I can't help that. I can only take responsibility for my actions and I'm going to do something good here.
00:16:07
Speaker
which is just, again, Ben being the best Spider-Man in this era. It's so nice. I don't think he really could have hoped for anything better either, because it's not like I know that she knows about Ben, but like would she know about Kane? I don't think so, because remember, like Peter just met Kane. Yeah, he like just met him. And then like right after Aunt May came out of the coma and then died.
00:16:36
Speaker
And also, nobody really knows anything about Kane, even if they've met him. There was the point previously where Scarlet Spider's swinging around during issue 400, and Kane flashes, and it literally ends with, I have no idea why he wants to kill me. No one knows anything. So I guess, yeah, you only know so much that this is your clone, and now
00:17:05
Speaker
You're being arrested. Like, yeah, that's a reasonable conclusion to jump to. So the comic then cuts to Peter before his arraignment, where the judge decides not to set a bail considering the nature of the crimes, essentially being like, these are heinous murders. We're just not even going to think about sending a bail.
00:17:29
Speaker
So later in his jail cell, Peter is confronted by Detective Raven, who suggests that he knows Peter under a different name and asks why he didn't run since, well, Peter should have recognized Detective Raven if he is the person that he thinks he is. Right. And this seems like a way for the writers to gloss over the fact that Raven should have realized something was weird if Peter didn't recognize him. Yeah.
00:17:56
Speaker
Like he's run into him in the past and been like, boy, this guy is, he's acting like he doesn't know me, but he never brings it up until this moment. So I think that was kind of why that was written in there. Just to be like, we, we kind of screwed up a detail. Let's kind of gloss that over. So like, so is he like catching on because of that or is it just being like, why are you being weird boy?
00:18:23
Speaker
The way that it's written here is the kind of why are you being weird, but I do think it kind of plays into things a little bit later. And we'll get to that a little bit. Because I mean, like, that is a... Like, when it comes to, like, crime thriller tactics of, like... You know, that is... I don't know. That makes me think of, like, that... Have you ever watched Primal Fear? No. Oh, okay. Well, you should watch it. It's a very interesting thing.
00:18:55
Speaker
But now, oh, I don't want to spoil it for you though. So now I can't use that reference, but damn it.
00:19:04
Speaker
If you have watched Primal Fear, maybe you'll know what I'm talking about or trying to connect. If you haven't watched, just watch it. Pause what you're doing right now. Watch Primal Fear. Come back and be like, Grin's not crazy. I'm slowly losing my mind right now. Please continue.
00:19:27
Speaker
We then cut to the Daily Bugle where J Jonah Jamison and Joe Robertson are fighting about how the Bugle will report the story of Peter's arrest. Jonah argues that they will treat the story like anyone else and no special treatment should be awarded to the Parker family. But Joe refuses to believe that the charges are real or maybe not the charges is real, but like that they should be applied to Peter and feels something more must be done. He essentially is saying we need to protect Peter.
00:19:56
Speaker
And when Joe leaves the office, Jonah gets a call where we learn that he has been paying for Peter's legal defense and that the money is coming directly from his pocket. So Jonah is paying for the lawyer, not the Daily Bugle, which I think is just really sweet. And it's a nice moment. I also think that like,
00:20:15
Speaker
Joe, as much as I understand his ideas and how he wants to protect Peter, I think it's the exact wrong way to approach things if you are a newspaper. Okay, this is gonna be like the most insane thing I've probably ever said. When you say Joe,
00:20:35
Speaker
Oh no, Joe Roberts. Joe Roberts. So there's J. Jonah Jameson and Joe Roberts. My heart was pounding. I thought you were about to tell me J. Jonah Jameson's first name was Joe and that it's not actually J and that J is just the letter initial.
00:20:54
Speaker
so that it then would have been Joe Jonah Jameson. I almost lost my mind, but apparently, my brain turned off for like two seconds. We're back on track, so Joe Roberts.
00:21:08
Speaker
And Joe Roberts. Yeah. So Joe Robertson, uh, he's, he's one of the editors at the daily bugle. He's, he's a pretty big character. Been around before. Cause I mean, like, I feel like I've had a lot of like scenes with the daily bugle involved and usually they just, it's the reporters that are talking like Ken Ellis and like, and Betty brand. And then they mentioned.
00:21:31
Speaker
My guess is he's in the background and you just aren't aware of who he is, so you didn't register that he's like a character to pay attention to. True. Like I didn't really know who Betty was until I read this thing. So that's right. So I genuinely really liked Joe. I think he's a great character. He was in the Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies, but very briefly.
00:21:57
Speaker
Oh, okay. You would be forgiven for not knowing that he was a named character. That's cool, because I really didn't. Also, just as an FYI, the J in J. Jonah Jameson stands for John. It's John Jonah Jameson. So it is an initial. His name's not just J. No, it's John Jonah Jameson.
00:22:24
Speaker
That is a lot. Yeah. So anyway, the whole, I mean, the whole point of that is just. You see that triple J really cares. Yeah. And I think I always like moments like that because you know, he's a hard ass and, and, and stuff, but it's nice to see the softer side of him. I mean, he's a human. I'm a sucker for that. Yeah.
Art and Storyline Critiques
00:22:49
Speaker
So we now get to see P3PO walking through Queens while he tries to determine why all of this seems so familiar to him. They're just the surrounding area.
00:23:02
Speaker
We don't get any follow up to this because the comic is running at warp speed and we cut immediately to the Parker and Mary Jane home with Mary Jane sitting with a lawyer. Except we then cut immediately to Detective Raven in his hotel room as he starts to doubt himself. All of these scenes that I just described, the one with P-3PO, the one with Mary Jane and the one with Detective Raven, all of those happen in one page.
00:23:31
Speaker
That is like how fast this story is moving. Oh, so it's like a third of the page is three people. Yeah. Yeah. We get a third of the page with P3PO. We get a third of the page with Mary Jane and a third of the page with detective Raven. That is an insane amount of cuts to go. Like if you were watching a movie, that is lightning. That is, um,
00:23:55
Speaker
Oh shit, what is his name? That is Edgar Wright style of like editing. Yeah. Cut, cut, cut. This is already starting to make me think of, I think it's the Exile Returns or Power, whichever, the first one that I read was Venom. The Exile Returns. Yes, okay. Everything's really making me feel like that right now. Cause it's just like all of, it's like 20 different characters.
00:24:23
Speaker
and they're all doing stuff. And it's just like, quick, tell everyone what they're doing now. It can be overwhelming, yeah.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, so we next cut to Cain as he stands brooding on top of the building in the rain. He is again haunted by visions of Mary Jane's death. He then reaches up to the side of the building and tears part of the wall down in frustration. Now the art is very vague here and I initially thought that he just tore a small like piece of the wall off like sort of just like grabbed like a handful of bricks and like ripped them off the wall.
00:24:56
Speaker
But the next panel makes it seem like the whole side of the building fell. Like if it's the side of the building, then he caused way more damage and could have potentially hurt so many people, but the comic brushes it off. It's not addressed. It's just like you see a panel where he's like ripping bricks from the wall and then the next panel, I can't, it looks like there's smoke and debris everywhere on the street. So I don't know exactly what he did.
00:25:26
Speaker
But one way, he causes a little bit of property damage. It's pretty fitting. We don't even know what he does. Like, we don't know what he do. We don't know what he did. We don't know what he going to do. We don't know. He is bad. Yeah. So we cut then back to the Parker residence where Mary Jane is crying over everything that's happened and questions why Peter doesn't just break out of jail.
00:25:53
Speaker
Her mind then quickly wanders to whether or not her child will have irradiated blood like Peter and if this will cause issues, which I guess is like a, that is to me more of an interesting idea than like, what if my baby has superpowers? It's like, what if the messed up DNA actually causes
00:26:15
Speaker
like harm to the baby. And they kind of alluded to that a couple issues ago where she's at the doctor and they're like, we want to run some extra tests. So, I mean, yeah, that is like a fair concern. And then also like with all of the arrest going on, is she even going to have a support system, not just for the baby, but for herself?
00:26:41
Speaker
Right. And so there, I also want to point out, uh, it'll be something that I bring up in a future episode.
00:26:48
Speaker
not part of the Clone Saga, but on an episode I'm writing about comic book mistakes or things that were put in that were later censored or things like that. There is an issue of a comic book called Spider-Man Reign. It's like The Dark Knight Returns of Spider-Man, set in the future. Old Spider-Man coming out of retirement to do one last thing.
00:27:14
Speaker
It's really depressing. And one of the issues in that Mary Jane is dead and she died. It is very heavily implied because of Peter's irradiated sperm. It gave her cancer and she died. Oh my God. That's not the only thing we're going to be talking about in terms of Spider-Man reign. That's just one of the things. And I was like, Jesus Christ, what a story.
00:27:44
Speaker
Anyway, back to this. We then see the Jackal at Ravencroft Institute in a session with Dr. Kafka. Dr. Kafka being the doctor that runs Ravencroft. Yes. Jackal gets angry after being asked about Gwen and claims he, in quotes, will pay before being dragged away by security. Then we cut again.
00:28:06
Speaker
to Queens where P3PO catches a thief while in the process of remembering the phrase, with great power comes great responsibility. So we then cut to Scarlet Spider who has been following Mary Jane as he tries to figure out how to convince her that he's here to help.
00:28:26
Speaker
This is actually the story that takes a little bit longer, but all of these other things are happening like rapid fire. But Ben's story is like the main story of this. So we then see Mary Jane being approached by Judas Traveler. And this enrages Ben as he rushes in to separate the two. But as he rushes in, we cut to a different scene.
00:28:51
Speaker
This one with Detective Raven, who approaches the Parker home, only to realize that Mary Jane isn't there. And as he turns to leave, he's attacked by Kane, who tells him that he's arrested the wrong man. Kane then places his hand on Raven's face and scars him in the same way that the murdered victims have been left scarred. Which is an interesting
00:29:20
Speaker
Wait, I mean, I think he, I think it's implied he can kind of control it. So he's like, I'm just going to scar your face. I'm not going to kill you, which okay. But it's interesting that he's like, Oh no, I accidentally got Peter in trouble. Let me step in and not.
00:29:41
Speaker
give any evidence other than I will hurt this man and tell him he arrested, which like, yeah, I guess that works, but you could have also made Peter in more trouble. Cause it could seem like someone was trying to like, uh, to influence him, you know, try to bully the, the cop that arrested him. I don't know. So if a giant blue man came up to you though, and we're like, by the way, I'm the murderer, like,
00:30:10
Speaker
He doesn't actually say that he's the murderer. He says that he arrested the wrong man, and then he implies he's the murderer. I just don't understand. Like, two issues ago, he threw Spider-Man off a building. He had a lot of faith in Spider-Man's ability to catch himself.
00:30:32
Speaker
Like off a building, a multi-story building, and then repeatedly like fights Ben Riley. Yeah. I don't understand. He's got some complicated motivations that we still don't understand. No, not at all. Like, why does he care so much about Mary Jane? Like, is there some weird, like Frankenstein storyline that just they haven't written or like, I don't understand.
00:31:01
Speaker
We will be coming up on some of, uh, some of the, some of Kane's background. I hope so. Cause maybe like three or four episodes from now. Oh my God. Yeah. That's so many issues. I know. So as Ben lunges for Judas traveler, uh,
00:31:22
Speaker
the streets around him explode. Like, just blow the fuck up. And dodging the debris, the Scarlet Spider is able to make it to Mary Jane and Judas Traveler decides that he will leave them be. So he just shows up, goes up to Mary Jane, Ben jumps in, and then he goes, eh, fuck it, and leaves. Because Judas Traveler is a terrible villain.
00:31:49
Speaker
So Mary Jane then decides that she will work with Ben, but he must remain in the mask because she doesn't want to see her husband's face worn by another man, which as shitty as that is, like I kind of get, you know? She's putting, she's making boundaries. Right. Which honestly, again, I think that makes sense. If you, the last time you saw your husband was your husband getting arrested for horrendous murder.
00:32:19
Speaker
And then someone else with his face came up to you and was like, want to hang out and solve a crime? I wouldn't want to see that face. I would be like, what is happening? Like, I want a different person to help me. Yeah, it's very jarring. So we then we then end the comic with Peter being transferred to a new prison.
00:32:44
Speaker
the Jackal gloating about how he couldn't have planned this better, and P3PO stating he must find out who he is, and he knows exactly where to start looking. Which is like, such a weird way to end this particular issue. Just like all of those stories kinda coming to a, well, Peter's moving, Jackal says he planned all this thing, and this other guy says he now knows where to look. I don't know, but I guess we kinda got somewhere with it.
00:33:14
Speaker
And there's actually a second story printed at the back of this comic, but it's not included in the Marvel Unlimited version, which kind of pissed me off. I had to go hunt this down. And it follows up on the story from the back of Amazing Spider-Man 400. I'm going to detail all of that at the end.
Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 1, No. 223
00:33:32
Speaker
So then we cut to Spectacular Spider-Man volume one, number 223, which was written by Tom DeFalco, penciled by Sal Buscema, inked by Bill Sinkiewicz, colored by John Kalis, lettered by Clem Robbins, and Loretta Kroll, which is the same creative team with the addition of Loretta Kroll. So this is, we fall into the same issue that you had with this, which is Sal Buscema and Bill Sinkiewicz being
00:34:01
Speaker
mismatched in terms of art styles, I would say. Yeah. It's tough, right? Like, it's hard to see things. Yeah. I, again, I really want to, I want to show you some of Bill Sinkiewicz's work outside of, you know, trying to ink over someone else because it is really good. Yeah. And again, like, it's not that I question the individual talents. It's just like they, I don't know, they tried to put a pen in an apple.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yeah, it is. It is a very strange team. I don't know. I don't know who put this together, but it was very poor. So we begin this issue with Jackals. He sits in session with Dr. Kafka again.
00:34:46
Speaker
And while I say sits, I mean, he's actually strapped down like Hannibal Lecter, which kind of makes sense considering he's altered his DNA to be a lot more deadly. He's like just straight up on that. I don't know what that's called that like giant board. And then they have like, he can't move a finger, you know? Oh, it's kind of like a gurney. Yeah. An upright gurney. Right.
00:35:10
Speaker
So Jackal refuses to answer any questions and just mocks the security and Dr. Kafka herself during this entire thing. And this leads Dr. Kafka to think that of the villain shriek who has absorbed the carrion virus and has been treating the virus as though it were her child growing inside her. Now I will explain what I just told you. Thank you. The carrion virus is a virus created by the Jackal.
00:35:38
Speaker
And it is incredibly complicated because there are a ton of retcons around how it works and why. So just for this unit, for just for this storyline, how does this one work? So it kind of makes you into like a zombie. That's kind of, so we're going to get into a lot of like how it works later on when we start talking about the high evolutionary.
00:36:07
Speaker
Essentially, it gets into you and you start to decay, but then you get super powers as well. It's called the carrion virus because there was a person who was infected with it who became the creature carrion, which is essentially like a zombie, but it's supposed to
00:36:30
Speaker
It's supposed to kind of make you live longer, I think. I don't have a full understanding of it because, again, the actual virus itself has been retconned so many times as to what the fuck it does. I don't know what it was supposed to have done at this time. Right. But essentially, it kind of makes you a zombie. But somehow, Shriek is a character who had teamed up with Carnage during the Maximum Carnage storyline.
00:37:01
Speaker
Okay. And she, so they had created like a villain family and they had adopted a couple of supervillains to kind of act as like their supervillain children, one of which being carrion. And she had absorbed the virus from his body and it is growing inside her and she is like just mentally broken and treats the virus as though it's a baby. Okay.
00:37:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's really weird. And it's also, it's a strange scene that like, when I originally was doing notes, I was like, this makes no sense for it to be here, but it actually does for things later on. It's just, it was just a very strange scene to have included. Gotcha. Meanwhile, Mary Jane prepares some tea for Ben and the two discuss their current situation. Ben, again, mentions how he hates the name Scarlet Spider, even though it's a pretty fucking cool name.
00:38:00
Speaker
And during their conversation, Ben removes his mask, which causes Mary Jane to remind him that she doesn't want to see her husband's face on someone else. Which I think it was just a way for like them to include that because if you're picking up just one issue, you kind of got to like, here's kind of the rules of where we are. Yeah. There's some times where you have to just kind of add like, Hey, remember this thing from last week? Cool. Yeah. Bye.
00:38:25
Speaker
At the same time, Peter is visited by Joe Robertson from the Daily Bugle. Joe is asking for anything that could prove he's innocent since Detective Raven has eyewitnesses and fingerprints as evidence. Peter's only response to Joe is to say, I can't. Which is kind of like, I mean, it's true, but it's got to be deflating for, for Joe to hear, you know, like, I just can't, I can't give you anything that proves I'm innocent.
00:38:54
Speaker
But like, does he not have some kind of alibi? Oh, but I guess he would also have to say he's Spider-Man. Yeah, that's the other thing. All of the times he goes missing, that's going to be tied into, well, were you sneaking off to murder these people?
00:39:13
Speaker
And he's like, no, I'm sneaking off to be Spider-Man. Right. And you have to keep in mind, this is coming off the tales of like the life theft storyline and back from the edge where he was just missing for long periods because he wanted to just be the spider. Yeah, and then he got bird poison. Yeah. I can never forget. So we then cut to Detective Raven in the hospital as he is visited by a colleague.
00:39:42
Speaker
They discuss Raven's disfigurement and when his colleague mentions that they will find the person responsible, Raven claims he said the same thing about the murderer he was hunting and he got the wrong guy. He is now completely sure that he has arrested the wrong person. Well yeah, I mean if someone put evidence on my face, I too would realize I caught the wrong guy.
00:40:05
Speaker
At the same time, P3PO is wandering the streets of New York when he finds a copy of The Daily Bugle with Peter's face on the cover announcing his arrest. This gives him some more clues as to who he might be as he is still confused about who he really is. Which, I mean, that would be a little bit alarming if you're like, I had no idea who I was. And then I suddenly stumbled upon a newspaper with my face on it. And they were like, hey. Saying that I was arrested.
00:40:32
Speaker
specifically for murder. And at the Parker residence, Ben tries to convince Mary Jane to let Dr. Treanor run tests on their baby to make sure that there isn't anything wrong with it. And Mary Jane reacts in intense anger at the suggestion
00:40:51
Speaker
She begins to question what Ben is really after, which I think is kind of shitty because you were thinking the same thing. I guess I understand getting angry that someone is suggesting something weird about your child, but you were thinking the same thing, Mary Jane. Yes, but Ben is not a part of their relationship. That's true. To me, personally,
00:41:19
Speaker
When it comes to either weddings, family planning, or moving, the three big things that you often do usually with a partner, whether it's a roommate or if it's a life partner or whatever. I typically don't want to hear any advice from anyone unless I ask for it.
00:41:49
Speaker
So when I moved into my first apartment, I was getting gas with my mom. And I was like, OK, before we start this whole moving in thing, I'm just going to let you know now. Don't give me any advice. Don't suggest where to put the plates. Don't suggest where a good spot for the couch is. Please, just let me figure it out. If I somehow realize I've blocked where the cable's supposed to go, I'll figure it out on my own.
00:42:17
Speaker
Don't tell me same thing with like if i'm ever gonna have kid like don't tell me what kind of diapers are better for my future baby. Don't like tell me how i should or should not feed my baby unless you're my doctor.
00:42:35
Speaker
Or I am, you're my partner and I'm, we're figuring it out, you know? Like, it's because it is shitty when like, I don't know, freaking Sue Ellen is telling you like, oh, spinach is bad for your two months old. Like, leave me alone.
00:42:54
Speaker
So yeah, I would be annoyed if someone was like, oh, you should go to the doctor and see like, because like, yeah, it sure it's that's her husband's face. But like, Ben knows that he's not Peter Parker. Ben is right. And Ben is not married to Mary Jane. So he should she should have kept his mouth shut.
00:43:16
Speaker
You know, he can ask like, how are you doing with your pregnancy? Are you feeling all right? But like, I wouldn't be like, you should do this. Oh, especially if it was from a man. I'm like, when's the last time you've been pregnant? Leave me alone. That's my argument on that one, my guy. Those are valid points. It comes off a little strange to me, but like, I'm also, you know, it's not,
00:43:46
Speaker
Ben takes it in a good way. He's kind of like, okay, yeah, you're right. I'll shut up. I just thought I'd give my two cents. And I mean, hey, that is the best way to react to that. He's learning. I'm not saying he's a bad man. I'm just saying that he's a man who needs to learn. I still like him.
Carnage's Brief Appearance
00:44:11
Speaker
back at Ravencroft, we get yet another cameo appearance of carnage that amounts to absolutely nothing as he taunts the jackal in the cell next to him, which I just, it's like every other issue we get one of the, one of the symbiotes in it. And I just don't.
00:44:29
Speaker
I don't care. Like one, one panel or one page of them is not a story that I give a shit to read about, you know, like did scream ever come back? I know. No, that's the only one I wanted to come back. I wanted to know what happened.
00:44:48
Speaker
Yeah, I do. Like, I don't know what it is about her design in particular, but I remember when I saw her for the first time, I kind of became obsessed with trying to learn more about her. And she was part of the Islands of Adventure Spider-Man ride where it just inexplicably
00:45:07
Speaker
She's part of like the bad guys that you are sent out to stop. And I was obsessed with her after I saw that. Well, she looks cool. When you said shriek, I was like, oh, she's back. And then I was like, oh wait, no, that's scream. Also, I don't know who shriek is. Is that a symbiote? It's very clearly not, but you can dream. Shriek is a mutant who can scream.
00:45:36
Speaker
Good for her. Yeah. I mean, she's in, she's in the last venom movie, which I didn't see, but whatever. We then learned that the security footage at Ravencroft has been tampered with to show the Jackal is asleep when he is actually out of his cell and accessing files on Malcolm McBride.
00:45:59
Speaker
Malcolm McBride was the second person to have been infected with the carrion virus who became a supervillain and fought Spider-Man. So, like, now we have our second mention of the carrion virus here. Okay. Meanwhile, P-3PO wanders to the warehouse where Spider-Man confronted Uncle Ben's killer and realizes that there is something important about this place. He then realizes he knows where he might learn some answers and runs off.
00:46:29
Speaker
Which is the second time he has said that. It's more like the third. Also, we've already had so many reintroductions of the Spider-Man origin story. Ben has gone back to the place where it happened. Spider-Man is forever going back to the place where it happened.
00:46:58
Speaker
P3PO is now. We're the place of Gwen's death. We've already covered it in this storyline. We got it. It's good. Now, the one interesting thing, well, I don't know about interesting. A weird thing that happens here is that as P3PO runs away, we are shown that Scryer has been watching him the entire time. So we have
00:47:28
Speaker
Another intro, another like reintroduction of a character that just sits around and watches shit happen. Right. So back at the park of residence, Ben reveals to Mary Jane that he once wanted to take Peter's life for his own, but has learned to come to terms with who and what he is, which I think is like, that's a. It's a hard thing to tell the wife of the person you're talking about, but, uh, it is also like, I think an important and interesting
00:47:57
Speaker
thing for him to open up about and be vulnerable. Man, every time you retell one of their interactions, it just feels so weird that they're interacting. Ben and Mary Jane? Yeah. I know that it's Peter Parker's clone.
00:48:24
Speaker
but just because of the development that he's gone through. He's a different character. I just feel like their chemistry would be so bad. Yeah, and they don't seem to hit it off very well. No, not at all. They're at odds pretty much this entire time. I don't want it to. I don't want them to have some kind of chemistry. It's just like...
00:48:55
Speaker
I almost just didn't want them to meet at all. I was hoping that it's just like bad first intro and then he goes to find out how to help in his own way without even interacting with her. And then maybe, excuse me, and then maybe later she finds out like, oh, he was helping me the whole time. Thanks, never see you again.
00:49:21
Speaker
Like I almost would prefer that, but maybe, maybe they'll prove me wrong. I don't know. Well, one interesting thing during this conversation, he reveals that the clones degenerate and die quickly. So he has decided that he wants to use the time that he has left to help the Parkers. Uh, which again proves.
00:49:44
Speaker
He's the best Spiderman. He's like, I'm going to die soon. So let me just help you before I die. It's God damn, it's so good. You know? Yeah. Like he could have gone on that one date with his, uh, apartment neighbor, or he could have hung out with Betty Brant or got a dog or something. I don't know.
00:50:08
Speaker
But instead, he's going to solve a murder. Having heard all of this, Mary Jane decides that she can trust Ben because he's opened up and he's told her about like he's dying, essentially, and that he wants to use his time to help them. And I think that that's enough for her to be like, okay, whatever you need, we can work together. We can get through this together, which is nice. It's a sweet moment.
00:50:36
Speaker
And just then, security at Ravencroft learns that the alarm and shrieks sell has gone off and they find Jackal inside. He explains that he has come to take the carrion virus from her because it was created to cause the did
00:50:53
Speaker
It was created to cause the degeneration that clones face in regular human beings. So I guess that's where we are with like it right now, but it still kind of doesn't fit with making someone into like a super villain at the same time. I don't know. Jackal knocks out shriek and the guards, then makes his escape as Carnage threatens to kill him for harming shriek. So I don't know. He like,
00:51:22
Speaker
steals the virus and knocks everyone out and then runs out. Wait, but how does it get the virus from her though? Yeah, that's not really explained. I think he like, wouldn't it be inside of her if she's carrying it around like it's her child?
00:51:40
Speaker
Yeah, he's got some sort of an extractor, but I don't know how it extracts the virus. You know what I mean? Because, like, I'm out here thinking, like, he's burst her open. No, he's like... And it's like almost like he's cutting out some kind of tumor. And I'm like, oh my God, this is some like Hannibal Lecter shit in Spider-Man that I didn't anticipate. But it's not at all that. No, it's like a needle. It's like syringe, okay.
00:52:10
Speaker
which doesn't make sense for if you know how viruses work. Oh, well, I mean, none of this makes sense. But it's comics. Right. So meanwhile, at Rikers, Peter tries to convince himself that Ben can't be the killer since he is a clone of himself and he feels he couldn't be a killer. And at the same time, P3PO,
00:52:40
Speaker
finds Aunt May and Uncle Ben's graves, which causes him to remember who he is. So finally, something happens here. That's not just vague hints at him knowing something. Okay. And now that he has his memories, he becomes convinced that the Peter in jail is an imposter and decides he needs to go and find Mary Jane, all while being watched by Cain. Oh! And the scene where this Peter meets Mary Jane
00:53:09
Speaker
is shown with no dialogue. So like that's like the very next scene is he just shows up at the house, Mary Jane opens the door and this P3PO is standing there and they decide to go for a walk. There is no understanding for how she reacted to seeing someone claiming to be her husband or why she chose to go on a walk with him. This is, it's a silent page and this is where that story ends.
00:53:42
Speaker
My brain hurts. Right. And that's, that is where this comic ends. You would have gotten a phone call. There would have been something. So like, you don't, the police would have been like, come pick up your husband, weird lady, or they would have been like, dropped him off or something.
00:54:04
Speaker
And she doesn't know, is this Peter? Is this another clone? What is going on? It's just some person who, she's already been exposed to someone who looks just like him. And like, if they've talked as much as they have enough for him to admit he's going to die soon, you would think that they would been like, oh, by the way, we walked to the cat skills. We walked over there.
00:54:32
Speaker
We took a couple days. We blew them up and we found a third one of us. Yeah. Or the alleged... Well, he didn't see the third one. The third one popped out when pain was there. Right. They just saw the pod. But they saw a pod. I mean, like, they could have assumed. Right.
00:54:49
Speaker
I don't know.
Conclusion of 'Aftershocks'
00:54:50
Speaker
Weird stuff. So that brings us to the end of Aftershocks, which is that whole storyline. It's fairly quick and there's a lot of rapid cuts to get so many characters in. I feel like this should... We've had storylines before with four issues that had less happening in them. Oh, yeah. I mean, Web of Life was very like one thing, one direction,
00:55:19
Speaker
Right. And so it's a weird feeling because I feel like it is simultaneously slower and character driven because I really do feel like we get to know more about Ben and Peter and like things that are going on, just like how they're reacting to the world and how they feel.
00:55:40
Speaker
And I like that, but it is, it is such a weird mix of that with like rapid cuts to every other character. Yeah. But anyway, I, I, before we get too far into like kind of what I liked and what I didn't like, uh, I want to get into the backup stories that were in this. So we had the, the back of the issue for amazing 400 and then these two issues and those make up a storyline called the Parker legacy.
The Parker Legacy
00:56:09
Speaker
And now is a good time for us to like really break that down. So I'm going to do all three of them as one long story. That way, like, cause if you read them as like separate stories, like they kind of work separately, but not really. Cool. So it's story time. So in, in this story, this is, um, right after, uh,
00:56:36
Speaker
right after Ben supposedly died five years ago. And he is alive. He visits Aunt May before realizing that he can't be part of her life because there's already another Peter there. And he decides that he has to leave New York.
00:57:00
Speaker
So he goes and he boards a bus and he's rude to a few passengers, particularly like an extremely obnoxious passenger, who we'll know a little bit more about him in a little bit. And he thinks it's okay because he's not the real Peter. So like he doesn't have to live by the same sort of moral rules that he's lived by his entire life. Right.
00:57:21
Speaker
He then sits down and he starts to fall asleep. He has a nightmare about his villains, all the Spider-Man villains, and being alone just in the world. And then he wakes up to the bus skidding out of control in the heavy rain. And he questions, like, should I even act? Like, do I even have a purpose in helping out here? Right.
00:57:47
Speaker
And while the bus is careening out of control, Ben is frozen in this indecision, but the bus driver gets control of everything and they're fine anyway. That's like, that's one of those, like they ended one of the backup stories with the bus is careening out of control. And then the next one they're like ads.
00:58:04
Speaker
Well, that's very much like in the beginning of his storyline with the Clone Saga. Like there was, he's sitting in the diner and there's a robbery happening across the street and he's like, do I even go put the mask on and then the police take care of it? Like that is very, I feel like that's very true to his character in the beginning.
00:58:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So because of all of the unsafe driving conditions, they are directed to a nearby motel instead of continuing on the trip that they were supposed to go on. So Ben is the only person who doesn't go to the motel and the obnoxious passenger from before decides to convince Ben to stop for drinks with him. This passenger is named Clifford and he tells him that his wife has left him, his children have disowned him, and his business is falling apart. His life is in pure shit, right?
00:58:57
Speaker
Yeah. Ben, angry at hearing someone trying to skip out on their entire life, even though he just told him how his life has fallen apart, starts to trash the bar. And when the bartender tries to get him to stop, Ben hurts him before realizing that he's acting horribly and he just leaves. He just takes off because he can't handle the fact that he's kind of being a dick.
00:59:20
Speaker
Right. And he kind of blames it on being drunk. I think he mentioned something about never like that. This is one of the reasons why he doesn't get drunk, you know, uh, his, uh, he goes to his hotel room and he gathers all of his things so that he can leave. And as he is on his way out, his spider sense goes off and it leads him into Clifford's room. Ben finds Clifford with a gun in his mouth and he leaps to keep him from pulling the trigger.
00:59:48
Speaker
See, during the fight that they had in the bar, Ben was particularly terrible and kept telling him how much his life didn't matter because he was skipping out on it. So this guy was depressed and was going to kill himself. Wow. They then sit down and Ben explains that even if his life is a mess, he should be fighting to create a new life, which is clearly mirroring what he's going through at the moment.
01:00:18
Speaker
The next morning, Ben boards the bus, but learns that Clifford is staying because he wants to rebuild his life. To which Ben responds, he is going to do the same thing. And when Clifford asks his name, Ben says, it's Ben, Ben Riley. This is the first time that he has used this name and it is in honor of his foster parents, Ben and May. He thinks that if he can't be Peter, then his name keeps alive the values that Peter was raised on.
01:00:48
Speaker
And that's how we end the Parker legacy. Oh, okay. It, I loved that. It gets a lot darker than most things in this. Yes. So like the fact that they're even like drinking is pretty like, wow. Yeah. It's one of the, I think maybe that's something like there's more realism to it that I appreciate.
01:01:17
Speaker
Like it brings the emotional impact home a bit more, you know? Yes. Cause they're going to be like, Oh, there's a clone here and the clone is doing clone stuff and it's all sci-fi and craziness. But like the part that you connect to is the part that you can understand, like it's the, the emotional human element of it. And part of that's going to be like, what do you do in a normal life? You know? Yeah. I mean, like even bringing up like, you know, someone who's going through a divorce.
01:01:47
Speaker
or like bankruptcy, even if they just picked like one of those things. Like, you know, even I mean, it's it's very impactful, obviously, that they picked all three, like they really wanted to make you feel like this person was in the shitter. So, yeah, I'm just also surprised that they were like gun in mouth. Let's do it. I'm like, wow, there are
01:02:16
Speaker
Spider-Man comics go through eras where some are a little bit more Ridiculous and less like they're more supervillain based and crazy big and some are a little bit More pared down and I have always been a fan of the more pared down ones Now I'm not saying that the other ones don't work. Oh, yeah, I mean like everything has like it's
01:02:43
Speaker
I mean, look at all the Batman movies there are, they all work, but they're all incredibly different vibes. Like you can do that for sure. I guess I just wasn't expecting it. There are some issues of Spider-Man that I would love to have you read just to have like a different take on. Well, I guess, yeah, I mean, I wasn't expecting it while tied to the clone saga.
01:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, no. So one of the things I wrote in my like, what's good, what worked, uh, I wrote, we've kind of already talked about part of it. I think that this being a slightly slower character face story works when we are slower, but like all of the other stuff is going a little fast and that kind of ruins the pacing. I think of this like more character driven story arc, but for the Parker legacy,
01:03:36
Speaker
It was really well put together. If you made that one issue of a comic or two issues of a comic, it is masterfully done in terms of what I give a shit about. Those are great character moments that really flesh out who Ben is and why we should give a shit about him. We don't need to see him punching Venom to be like, oh, this is an interesting and important character. Now, that is a fun thing to add to that.
01:04:05
Speaker
But like the character himself being someone who struggled and you get to see the different things where he's done wrong and then done something right. That's interesting. Like I'm surprised that wasn't earlier. I am too. And I have some notes later for how that came about and why. And I think
01:04:34
Speaker
I think we would have benefited from that a little earlier too. Oh, absolutely. And now I'm going to get into what didn't work in this. I've already told you about the pacing for this because the pacing is all over the place.
Critique of Storyline Pacing
01:04:55
Speaker
The slowing it down for the character moments, big fan. Pairing that with rapid cuts to other things, awful idea.
01:05:06
Speaker
On top of that, the Jackal is quickly becoming one of the most annoying characters to have around. He has learned to break out of his cell and hack the security system of this state of the art, maximum security, like prison slash like mental hospital.
01:05:29
Speaker
And none of this is explained, nor is the virus thing, the extraction of the virus, and none of that is explained. He is just able to do this shit. Now, those things can happen. This could be exciting moments of narrative storytelling, but it's glossed over. They just juggle all of these other storylines, whereas you could have an entire issue dedicated to the jackal.
01:05:59
Speaker
and how he pulls this off. And that I think would be really fascinating and would get across why he is like a villain to be scared of. But instead he can just do it because we've said he can do it. Yeah, because if it's just like you see him for one second and he's being really manic with Dr. Kafka and then like
01:06:24
Speaker
He's gone for the rest of the issue. And then the next issue, it's just like a guard being like, Oh, where'd he go? Oh, there he is. Like that's not as, as thrilling. Yeah. It's just kind of like, what? Yeah. And this, I'm going to pair this a little bit with the next thing that I want to talk about in terms of what didn't work. I have a very strong suspicion that the writers were being heavily influenced by Batman at the time.
01:06:54
Speaker
Now, considering these issues are coming out around the same time as Batman Forever, the third major Hollywood Batman movie, and the fact that they keep cutting back to Ravencroft, which is essentially just Arkham at Marvel, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that they were trying to copy things that worked with the Caped Crusader.
01:07:16
Speaker
fact, while we haven't read this book for the podcast, there is a storyline that ran through amazing Spider-Man in 1993. So not very far before this called trial by jury where Spider-Man pulls a piece of a wall off of, uh, like he pulls like the bricks and stuff off a wall with his web and it mirrors a moment from Batman returns where Batman does the same thing with his grappling gun.
01:07:42
Speaker
And he calls it out in the comic saying you should have seen Batman Returns and does the thing that they do in that movie. Now that's weird.
01:07:53
Speaker
While the writer for that story is different from the writer for this story, I think it's important to note just how wildly popular the Batman movies and comics were at this time. So I can imagine that multiple comic book writers would feel inspired to try creating something similar with the book that they're writing. In fact, JMD Matias is one of the people who created Ravencroft for the Spider-Man comics, and it came out just a couple of years after the Batman movie did.
01:08:21
Speaker
I mean, how could you not be inspired by Batman forever though? How could you not? And you may think, oh, she's just joking. No, I'm not. Yeah. We actually had before we started recording today, I don't remember how we got on it, but you and I started talking about Batman forever. Oh, it's because
01:08:47
Speaker
Um, Derek and I are going to, we're going to hang out with another dude who podcasts. And I have saved his episode where he, there's an episode where he talks about Batman forever. And I'm really interested to see if like, it's going to match my opinion of Batman forever.
01:09:13
Speaker
It's okay if it doesn't, like I'm excited to hang out. But I know I have very niche opinions sometimes when it comes to that movie. The only Batman movie that I have ever gone back to and felt like I really don't want to finish this is Batman v Superman.
01:09:35
Speaker
The rest of them I enjoy in one way or another, you know? I'll be honest, the Batman movies that I've rewatched the most is probably Batman Forever. And then... Batman and Robin. Okay, if I had to rank them. Okay. In terms of like, most rewatched down. Batman Forever is number one. For sure.
01:10:04
Speaker
And then it's Batman, the first Michael Keaton one. OK, the 1989 with Captain Nicholson. Yes. And then, though I want it to be Batman Returns,
01:10:22
Speaker
I think just it factually ends up being Batman and Robin because that one was always more available to rent and it was just on TV more than Batman Returns. It's a bit more kid friendly. Batman Returns caused a huge upset.
01:10:40
Speaker
But I always really had a craving to watch Batman Returns. So the craving could be number two spot, but the availability of it was very low. So it ends up being lower on the list of rewatched properly. Wait, I have a question for you. How long ago was it that you last watched Batman Returns? Batman Returns? Maybe. Danny DeVito.
01:11:10
Speaker
Maybe like three years ago. Oh, so way more recent than I thought. Yeah. And then the last time I watched Batman Forever was a couple months ago. And then I watched Batman 89 shortly after, keyword after I watched Batman Forever. Very different vibes.
01:11:37
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and then I would probably say like. Underneath Batman and raw or no, Batman returns is going to be the dark night. Then the dark night rises. Then Batman begins. And then I only had the pleasure of watching just the Batman once, like with raw bat, bat and bat. I only got to watch that once.
01:12:04
Speaker
But boy did I have a great time. It's probably gonna actually go, that one's gonna go right under, if anyone wants to make a list, I'll make the list, it's fine. Don't worry about it, I got it. The Batman probably goes directly under the Dark Knight. And then the other two Christopher Nolan ones go below that. And then a big old zero to all the Zack Snyder ones. Because I just, I refuse.
01:12:34
Speaker
I am not interested. No offense. I went with a big group to go see the Batman. I thought it was great. I really liked it. I enjoyed the hell out of it. It's one of my favorite Batman movies. The Batmobile scene.
01:12:56
Speaker
where they're doing the high-speed chase on the highway. Oh, with the penguin? Yeah. Austin was sitting next to me, and she was freaking out about how into... She was so into that scene. I don't care about car chases a lot of times in movies, but holy... It was interesting. Oh my God. When the engine starts, it's like a demon.
01:13:26
Speaker
It is. It's great. I love it. Uh, and just like the way he, uh, we're gonna have to, this is gonna have to be a whole nother episode. Just the way he like walks into scenes. Like the way he comes in. Just, just a spooky tank.
01:13:50
Speaker
It's so good because it's like you don't see him for a little bit. And then you're like, is that great? Now, my original point in bringing up Batman was to say that it's I think it's very clear that the Spider-Man writers were trying to sort of mimic some of the Batman stuff. And I think that comes down to the Jackal pretty much just being the Joker. Like, yeah, it's like a bad Joker impression. I get what you're saying.
01:14:19
Speaker
There's a lot of stuff going on in this era that I was kind of like, and even to the Clone Saga being kind of a response to the Nightfall comic books where Batman's back is broken and stuff. There's a lot of Batman being so into the zeitgeist at the time that it's kind of the DNA of it is going into Spider-Man.
01:14:49
Speaker
Which is not necessarily the greatest thing. Not bad, but like, I don't think, I don't think some of the influences should have been handled this way. No, because now I'm thinking about it, the jackal is making me think of if they tried to get Jim Carrey to play the Joker instead of the Riddler. And like Jim Carrey plays a great Riddler, but he would not to me be a good Joker.
01:15:21
Speaker
You know what I'm saying? I think, I think there's a level like when it comes to the Riddler, especially in that movie, it's very camp and like, and like, there's a silliness to it. And yes, the Joker Ken is like silly and he has all of his like goofy clown stuff, but there's a level still of horror to him.
01:15:50
Speaker
being Batman's biggest baddie. And I don't think the Jackal really has the horror element down. It's trying. No, I don't think they've established that. Yeah, it's trying a little. There was a point in the last episode where the Jackal's like, I could eat your eyeballs or something like that. And I'm like,
01:16:20
Speaker
All right. You still look like Rumpelstiltskin. I don't know. Um, so yeah, I just, I don't think they nailed like, if that's what they're trying to get. Again, I think like there's a horror element to that that they're not doing. And like, maybe he's just not supposed to do that. Maybe he's just supposed to be the Jackal, but like the Jackal is not Jacqueline to me.
01:16:49
Speaker
And I'm not digging it. Yeah, it's a little weird. Now, I have some quotes from Life of Riley, specifically from editor Glenn Greenberg, who commented on this story for Life of Riley.
Insights from Editor Glenn Greenberg
01:17:06
Speaker
And it starts with him saying, and so Judas Traveler returns once again. As Ben Riley points out in the story, Traveler seems even more powerful than before.
01:17:18
Speaker
and how the current crop of super baddies are a far cry from guys like Mysterio and the Shocker. In my opinion, this wasn't necessarily a good thing. I always preferred a more street-level, realistic Spider-Man, as depicted in the stories by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko.
01:17:33
Speaker
and John Romita Sr. I had been feeling for quite a while before I even started working at Marvel that Spider-Man was being pushed in a direction that took him away from his simple roots, and I was hoping that would change in the new regime. For example, I knew how popular characters like Venom and Carnage were, but I didn't really like them from the start because I felt they were too far out for Spider-Man. With rare exceptions, Spider-Man shouldn't really be dealing with alien lifeforms or supernatural weirdness
01:18:01
Speaker
where Epic saved the world scenarios. I felt that Spider-Man stories above all else have to be about people. And that was getting lost amidst all the stuff that was going on with the character. To some extent, I kind of agree with that. I think I'm fine with- I think there's a threshold of sci-fi.
01:18:18
Speaker
Because I mean, and I think we've passed it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, because if you think about Spider-Man, like, it's he got bit by a spider and spider DNA. And like, that's all sci-fi. I guess like. I don't know, I'm probably going to be wrong. Well, I totally am about to contradict myself because saga is a blend of magic and sci-fi.
01:18:46
Speaker
but they do that blend really well, you know? I think, so I think I get the point that you're going for. Like I was about to be like, if you're going to have a sci-fi hero and you're building that kind of world, but you still want to keep the element of like very human characters, then maybe just commit to one outlandish thing like sci-fi and give it a threshold. Like, you know, and just don't pass the threshold.
01:19:16
Speaker
but also the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking of there's both sci-fi and supernatural elements in a lot of stories. So that doesn't really work. But there is still some threshold to be had, I would say. There's an element of groundedness that you still have to at some point come back to.
01:19:44
Speaker
I think it's fun because so Michael Straczynski did a run on Spider-Man that I actually very much enjoyed in the early 2000s. And one of the things that he introduced was a bit of magic to Spider-Man's origin. In Michael Straczynski's telling of Spider-Man's origin story, the spider chose to give its powers to Peter. Oh, okay.
01:20:13
Speaker
And it's an interesting, it was one that like, I read it at the time and I was like, I don't really like that they're adding magic to it, but it's an interesting way to take the character. It was, it was fun. You know, uh, it's been pretty much ignored outside of doing like totem stuff. Like the magic aspect of it is seen as like sort of this like weird otherworldly thing. And that gets brought up in sort of.
01:20:42
Speaker
web of life in a different context. It's weird. It has stuck around, but they still kind of go back to, oh, the spider gave him powers because of sci-fi stuff. But back to Glenn Greenberg's comments. He says, the biggest problem with Judas Traveler was that he was just too much of an enigma.
01:21:03
Speaker
What were the scope and nature of his powers? No one seemed to have an answer. What was his primary motivation? The answer from the Spider-Man writers was always, well, he's trying to understand the true nature of evil. Um, okay, but that's a bit vague, you know, what does traveler hope to gain from understanding evil? What's his ultimate goal? That always remains shrouded in mystery, even to us.
01:21:30
Speaker
Now with the best Spider-Man villains, you understand who they are and what they want. For example, they're master criminals seeking to become the absolute crime lord of New York, or they're high-tech thieves out for wealth and glory, or they're power mad lunatics, or they're simply career criminals with superpowers. You get the idea. Even Venom has an understandable motivation as contrived as it is, but with Traveler,
01:21:59
Speaker
there just wasn't anything that you could really put your finger on. And it was difficult to get interested in him, at least from my point of view. Yeah. It's the backstory that gives them motivation. And like the backstory, I would say, I guess comes second to motivation because you don't totally always need to have it, but yeah, you just need, you just need to understand their motives.
01:22:24
Speaker
That's one of the issues we keep coming up with. It's with Kane. Kane, yeah. I don't like him. He continues to say, this kind of thing was going on in the X-Men books at the time back then. These new villains would show up with a lot of flash and hype, with a lot of mystery and veiled references surrounding them. And in the end, nothing would come of it. None of them ended up having any real staying power because they were so half-baked, ill-defined, and poorly developed.
01:22:53
Speaker
As a budding writer at the time, I learned a very important lesson from watching this happen at Marvel. Try to know who your characters are before you introduce them. Maybe not every last detail of their lives and histories, but at least know who they are, what they want, their connections to other characters in the story, their powers and abilities, and their weaknesses. It's kind of like method acting for writing. It's not even. It's like just filling out a character sheet for D&D.
01:23:21
Speaker
It's as simple as that. That's really all it is. And if you want to be even better at it, so I used to play a little bit, especially during COVID and then a couple of years after that. And Max would be our DM.
01:23:40
Speaker
he had done a thing, he like home brewed a game. So he built his own world and everything and had all the context of the world and everything. And the group was getting together, we were building our characters. And then what he would do before we even like had our
01:23:56
Speaker
first session as like a group, he met up with each person individually and hosted their own little private session zero. So he would pick like three different points in that character's life and just do a little like one-on-one like scene with them. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. And like, honestly, like I think it helped me make like the best character that I ever made for that game.
01:24:25
Speaker
Because I just like, I actually had time, I took the time to write out the sheet, obviously. But I had that little extra time to kind of like almost act him out or at least think about how this character would react to things in their life or like, you know, maybe what got them to where they are today and how certain mechanics of the character would work. And like,
01:24:54
Speaker
I think that just makes sense. Like if you're struggling with a character, like give yourself a session zero. I don't know. No, I completely agree. Yeah. Now I'm going to, well, actually kind of speaking of that sort of session zero thing, I'm going to transition a little bit into Greenberg's comments on the backup stories that we were reading.
01:25:24
Speaker
the Parker legacy featuring Ben. He says, I recall that early into Bob Budiansky's tenure as Spider-Man editor-in-chief, one of his desires was to get John Remita Jr. back on the Spider-Man comics in some capacity.
01:25:37
Speaker
At that time, I believe John was the regular penciler of the uncanny X-Men. And while he was doing terrific work on that book, I think he was kind of longing to do Spider-Man again. And certainly the Spider-Man editors would have been thrilled to have him back. But the reality of the situation was that he was one of Bob Harris's X-Men artists, and it would not have been very prudent to try to steal an artist from arguably the most powerful editor at the company.
01:26:04
Speaker
Of all the Spider-Man writers at that time, JMD Matthias was the best suited to tell this particular tale. He seemed to really get the character of Ben Riley, to really understand how he thought and felt and what he went through in those early days. And I'm going to side note here, that seems to be pretty consistent upon the issues of anything I've read written by JMD Matthias. He seems to be the one who really wants to get into the motivations of the characters and like,
01:26:33
Speaker
He might have some of the pain and stuff show up, but he's the one who was writing a lot of the stories with Puma and Nocturne. He really wanted to get into the weird mind space with these characters.
01:26:52
Speaker
He also seemed to be, this is back to Greenberg's comments, he also seemed to be the writer most enthusiastic about Ben, the one who understood all the story possibilities inherent in the character. He did his usual wonderful job on the Parker legacy, and I think that story did a lot to make Ben a character that the Spider-Man fans could like and respect. Ben should have had it before. John's work had changed considerably from the last time he had done any major work on Spider-Man. His style had gotten a lot grittier,
01:27:22
Speaker
a lot more dramatic, but still very recognizable as John Romita Jr. Clearly John had grown considerably as an artist and as a storyteller over the years. And to have him as the artist of the Parker legacy made it truly a special event. And of course it was so cool to have JR Sr. inking him again. So this is a fun thing. So John Romita Jr. was the penciler and John Romita Sr.
Al Milgram and Artistic Contributions
01:27:45
Speaker
was the inker. So it's a lot of fun. No, family.
01:27:50
Speaker
They didn't work together nearly enough in my opinion, and their combined efforts on the Parker legacy were pretty exciting to this long-term or long-time Spider-Man reader. Alas, John Senior didn't ink all three chapters, but Al Milgram turned in a great inking job too. Al is one of the best and unfortunately one of the most underrated anchors in the business, and it was always nice to see him get the chance to strut his stuff over high-quality work. So essentially what we got here is Bob Budiansky coming in and saying, look, we gotta find a way
01:28:20
Speaker
to get John Romita Jr. onto this book. And then I guess the idea they came up with is doing a backup story. And since JMD Matthias was someone who really seemed to care about the character, they were able to get that, this story put together. So if we're keeping track of how the clone saga is put together,
Spider-Man Series Challenges
01:28:47
Speaker
We have the storylines being dictated a little bit by editorial and a little bit by marketing at this point. Yeah. And they're kind of all over the place. There's good quality stuff in there, but there's also stuff that's maybe not the best quality. And there's a lot of jumbled mess here and there. And then you look at the Parker legacy where you have a writer who seems to really care about a character, an artist who seems to really care about a character.
01:29:17
Speaker
an editor who's willing to let them kind of do what they need to. And we have a fucking amazing backup story. I don't, this is such like a, why aren't you letting the writers write? Yeah. It's almost like you don't trust them to do their job. And there's the, like the, the weird mingling in terms of like letting us, so we have to have four issues across like all four titles so that we can tell
01:29:45
Speaker
a story like in parts that way everyone has to buy each part. Just tell a streamlined story with one writer. Yeah. And you can write all four issues across all four and then cycle in a different writer for the next story, if need be. Yeah. That's kind of where I'm coming in at this because I really was shocked at the dramatic quality change. Gotcha. For these backup stories. I mean, yeah, again, I mean,
01:30:16
Speaker
Even the tone is different. Everything's different. Right. It was so much better. And I'm not saying like what I read was fine. I actually really liked this story. I liked, well, I liked the story. I liked Ben and Peter's part of the story. Everything else was kind of rushed, but
01:30:38
Speaker
It's not like it was bad. It's just the other thing was better. I just would really like, I know it couldn't have happened because of the way that they were releasing issues, but it very clearly feels looking back in hindsight that it just needed to be one team. Oh yeah. No, I agree with you.
01:31:07
Speaker
And I think that would have fixed a lot of things. I'm sure there would still have been like, you know, weird moments and issues and maybe there would have even been new problems or whatever. But if you just had one team, you'd be like, okay, this is what I have. At least I know what I'm getting. Like I will start at, what am I reading next? It's like, I think I'm reading next a section called like the Mark of Cain. And every time I start a new section, I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to be getting.
01:31:37
Speaker
What's this going to be like? Yeah, it's a bit all over the place. I think we're definitely in for a strange
01:31:56
Speaker
mix of stories. Because again, I've read some of these and they're perfectly fine. And they're perfectly fine as like single stories. Yes. I feel like we keep ending up with that conclusion. And then it's like we have to think of it in the big picture and that's the hard part. Yeah. In context of the Clone Saga, they're just like, there's nothing that's really driving anything until it's like a lot all at once. Yeah.
01:32:24
Speaker
The quality is all over the place, so it doesn't feel cohesive in the slightest. And I know that's not necessarily how this was planned, but I think it really drives down what could have been great. Yeah.
01:32:43
Speaker
I feel like the more we read, the more I want it to be great. And then I'm like, but this is what we have. There's good stuff that we're reading. And I think that's what you're coming up against is you're seeing the like, oh, wow, this thing was done really well. But now I'm having to deal with something that's not so great. It's such mismatched quality.
01:33:09
Speaker
I don't know, I feel like we just keep coming back and forth on the same thing. We're just restating. And we just, okay, for more context, we recorded maybe a couple days ago
Upcoming Guest Appearance
01:33:21
Speaker
also. So it's just like, man, I really haven't. It's just been very Clone Wars, not Clone Wars. That's a different franchise. Shit. I could, to be fair, I kind of feel the same way about that. We gotta call it.
01:33:38
Speaker
Too much clone. Well, we are, so I don't know exactly when it'll be out, but we'll tease it here. Yeah. We are going to be guesting on another show. We'll be on Superhero Cinephiles at some point in the future. Maybe actually by the time this is out, I don't know. Who's to say? And we'll be talking about Power Rangers, which is one of my favorite things, and I'm sure is something you don't give a shit about.
01:34:12
Speaker
Oh, I've never felt more outed in my life. It'll be, I'm gonna learn, it's gonna be fine. No, we're gonna be talking about the Power Rangers movie that came out in 2017, which to be fair, when I watched it the very first time, I left the movie going, well, that wasn't very good.
01:34:38
Speaker
Oh, great. I'm so excited to watch it now. I'm making Max watch it with me. I'm trying to make Austin watch it with me, but she won't. She refuses. That's fair. Max at least said that he was cool with it. I'll take that. My cat is fighting with a tin of
01:35:01
Speaker
which Hazel got it. Oh, that will be coming out at some point. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll deal with that.
01:35:12
Speaker
Like the marketing of that, I guess, when we figure it out. It'll be fun. We're excited. I'm looking forward to it.
Podcast Details and Listener Engagement
01:35:20
Speaker
Until then, you can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com.
01:35:34
Speaker
If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicalupendanticagmail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question read on the air. And don't forget, we still own fuckcomicsgate.com if you'd like to send a donation to the games and online harassment hotline. We will be back soon with another deep dive into the world of comics. But until then, you can find more exciting adventure at your local comic shop.
01:36:11
Speaker
I, we got a little bit off of what I was going
Batman Movie Series Discussion
01:36:14
Speaker
to ask. So the reason I asked you about, uh, Batman returns is I feel like there is an episode you and I could do like pretty easily if you're interested. Because there, the reason Batman returns went directly into something like Batman forever. Well, it's very political. Like it's a, it's a big political drama almost. Cause he's going for the penguins going for election.
01:36:41
Speaker
Right, but the reason why the movies took such a sharp turn in style and vibe, there is an actual reason for that. And it involves McDonald's and a bunch of pissed off parents. Oh, I think I know why. Because I really like these movies. I really like them.
01:37:11
Speaker
to such a stupid degree. I really like these movies. This is fun, because I grew up with them and I was obsessed. I had the McDonald's Batman Forever mugs. Well, so if I remember right, it's like the penguin was too scary, but they wanted to make toys, but he's so horrified that you can't have a toy like that.
01:37:38
Speaker
they had signed an agreement with McDonald's so that they would make toys for it. And then the movie came out and they're like, you can't show this to kids. So how are we gonna sell toys for this? Because holy shit, this is dark. Yeah, it is. But yeah, what a time. And then they got Jim Carrey. And he did great. Because I really like those for me.
01:38:09
Speaker
and his telling of it. Can we pause for a second? Yeah. My cat, he just started meowing at me and like stood on my chair for my attention. And I just, I gotta, I gotta give him a little hello. He's already purring. He's so happy. How baggy. How I give back to him. He's my friend. I know.
01:38:40
Speaker
Okay, you can continue. He does not have a bell on, so he won't jingle-jangle about. He won't just be a good voice.