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Spider-Man Clone Saga: Amazing Spider-Man #400
42 Plays1 year ago
Corinne catches Derek up on a surprisingly touching and "amazing" issue of Spider-Man... the 400th!
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Transcript
Introduction to Comically Pedantic
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Eric Hillchase, and joining me on this episode, as always, is the wonderful Corinne Levy. We now join your regularly scheduled programming already in progress.
Amazing Spider-Man 400: The Gift
00:00:29
Speaker
So this issue is a very special issue, which I have had the privilege to read.
00:00:36
Speaker
It is Amazing Spider-Man 400. This one kind of has two different titles. The one inside of the comic, it's called The Gift. And I kind of wish that they kept it at that. And unfortunately, they did not.
00:00:58
Speaker
Which is, because the other title, which I don't really want to say right now. We can do the other title at the end. I'll do the other title at the end. Because there's also, we're going to have to talk about the cover too. Yes. So we'll go over all that at the end.
00:01:21
Speaker
the front cover is actually, but we're just gonna call it the gift right now because it is really special.
Stan Lee's Influence on Spider-Man
00:01:28
Speaker
And I'm gonna just real quick before we get to the actual story, when you open this issue, there's like a little letter.
00:01:36
Speaker
And it is from Stan Lee. So I just wanted to read that real quick. Wow. Did it really happen more than 30 years ago? It seems like only yesterday that I, as a comic book writer slash editor, was trying to convince our publisher to give artist Steve Ditko, I'm sorry if I said that wrong, and me the go ahead to try a new superhero strip called Spider-Man.
00:02:05
Speaker
I never expected the reaction we received. We were told, you can't call a hero Spider-Man, people hate spiders. Then when I said Spidey would be a teenager, Mr. Publisher blew a gasket, teenager can't be a superhero, teenagers are only sidekicks. And finally, after being told that trouble plagued
00:02:27
Speaker
Peter Parker would be the original hard luck kid with all the problems and hang ups of any average teenager. He went ballistic. Are you off your rocker? Whoever heard of heroes with everyday problems? Heroes are superior to other people. They don't have ordinary problems. That's why they're heroes. Well, you get the idea.
00:02:52
Speaker
The Amazing Spider-Man was not an easy sell, but truth, justice, and the American way finally triumphed. And in the months that followed, a perceptive, culturally cognizant, socially aware reading public proved that even an all-knowing publisher can be wrong. And now, three dazzling decades later,
00:03:15
Speaker
Thanks to the uncanny acumen of fans such as you, your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man is known and loved throughout the globe. So thanks for being with us to celebrate his 400th incredible issue, and be sure to catch us again when number 1000 rolls around. Excelsior is signed by Stan Lee. And I may have not done the best reading of that, but I thought that that was just a nice like special story
Why Spider-Man is Relatable?
00:03:45
Speaker
And I think it kind of goes to what I was saying before about like why I like Ben Riley story of it's like, it's just a guy figuring out who he is. And like that is a normal person conflict. And that is really special when you get to see these people that you think are super powerful, like have normal problems. And it kind of,
00:04:12
Speaker
showed me that letter being like, oh yeah, that is why Spider-Man is special. And like, maybe he wasn't my favorite superhero before, but he's a good superhero. And I think that that whole letter explains why. So congrats to 400 a little while ago. I thought that was nice and special. Yeah. I did like, Spider-Man was one of my favorite
00:04:40
Speaker
superheroes when I was younger. I still really like Spider-Man, but I think there's a lot that is piled on top of him. There's a lot of excess baggage that kind of weighs down my enjoyment of the character. This being one of them, the clone saga and the stuff that was just piled onto him.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the things that you and I struggle with in this are all of the extra fluffy, crazy problems, as opposed to the self-discovery part of it. Because the self-discovery part of it is really cool, and it could even be great if it just so much of the extra crazy fluffy stuff
00:05:31
Speaker
wasn't so much so because like obviously with comics you're supposed to have some crazy stuff you're dealing with superheroes but like i don't know sometimes bird poison makes me wonder like was that necessary well maybe the bird poison wasn't necessary but but is cadence necessary no and there is a reason why like that's where the fluff gets weird
Adaptations and Spider-Man's Journey
00:05:56
Speaker
When they do adaptations of Spider-Man, when they go in to do a Spider-Man movie or like a cartoon show or something like that, so often they focus on the early days of Spider-Man.
00:06:09
Speaker
That's because those are the ones that are about someone trying to figure out their place in the world, trying to be a good person. There is magic between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. As much as they did not get along very well, they had a way of making things just
00:06:41
Speaker
Yeah, and that's kind of like the opposite of like the artists we were talking about in one of the issues that I wasn't a fan of. Like, you know, maybe like those artists were friends in real life, but they weren't great team players. Right. These two may not have been great friends, but they were good teammates. In the early days of Marvel, you had Stan Lee and Jack Kirby doing like
00:07:10
Speaker
everything.
Marvel's Success Story
00:07:11
Speaker
And then Stanley and Steve Ditko, mostly just doing Spider-Man and like Dr. Strange, stuff like that. And none of these people are like friends, or were, they're all dead now. But like when they were doing this work, I think there was a friendship that started, but you know, business can sometimes come
00:07:37
Speaker
In between that, Stan is a very outspoken, or was a very boisterous personality. And that can not always be a good thing to be around, you know? Yeah, it's not everyone's cup of tea for companionship. That's okay. Well, and I think you can also, you can see where someone who is
00:08:03
Speaker
buying maybe into their own mythology could for a while not be a good person and then come out of that being like, wow, I did a lot of shitty stuff. I think Stan is one of those people, but you have these people who like worked so well together. Between Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and Stan Lee, you have pretty much all of Marvel comes from these three people. It is insane.
00:08:33
Speaker
And, uh, that, that story of, of, uh, Spider-Man stemming from, you know, you can't do this, you can't do that.
Spider-Man's Unexpected Popularity
00:08:43
Speaker
Like that, that's true. Spider-Man debuted in Amazing Fantasy 15. And the reason why it was the 15th issue of that, because that was an anthology.
00:08:58
Speaker
And they, they threw that on because it was a dying book and they were canceling it. Right. Spider-Man was so popular for like, that was one of their most popular books. That's why they decided to go further with it. Like it is fascinating the way that this has, you go from that to 400 issues of Amazing Spider-Man later.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's a cool accomplishment. And it's like, it's a cool thing to be proven wrong. Like I very much like to say that I like to be proven wrong when it comes to like first impressions. Um, cause there's some people that it's like, I met them like for maybe like the first one or two impressions and I was like, man, I don't like this person. I'm like, not a fan of this. This is not fun for me. These are not good interactions. I'm not like ordered.
00:09:52
Speaker
I was told too much shit about the person from like another person. And I was like, these are just bad first impressions. I'm not a fan. And then after like maybe three or four more interactions, I'm like, oh, I'm so glad I was wrong. These people are like, these guys are fun. Or like, this is actually like, I'm glad I now have developed my own opinion. I like to be proven wrong. And I like that kind of Spider-Man had the same kind of thing. He got two people wrong. That's fun.
The Creative Minds Behind 'The Gift'
00:10:22
Speaker
Um, so let's get into the gift of the 400th issue. This is written by J. M. Demetius, and the penciler is Mark Bagley, and the anchor is Larry Mollstead.
00:10:40
Speaker
And there are more people, I'm sure. I'm going to have to find them. Because for some reason, I only write half the credit. I got you in front of that. I have it in front of me, if you want. If you would like to finish it off so we could properly honor this issue. Sure. So in addition to inking on the gift, we had Randy Emberlin, colorist was Bob Sharon, letterer was Bill Oakley.
00:11:08
Speaker
Uh, and there are actually two stories after the gift, but we can get into those later if need be. Also, like one of them, I will recap in my next episode.
00:11:26
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And I think this was like a really nice team before we like against when we got into it. I thought the writing was really nice overall, and also the art that went with the panels.
00:11:42
Speaker
I thought was really nice. Like there were certain parts where I was like, wow, these people's faces look great. And like the expressions they're making are really nice and like really true. And like you get a lot of emotion from them and it's very cool. Yeah. Mark is one of my favorite, uh, artists when it comes to this kind of stuff.
00:12:04
Speaker
And like this is, this is like in a, you know, it's an emotional issue. It's one of those very like character based ones, which is, it's very nice to get like the proper, they picked the right people to do this one. And they made a note in the very beginning, this is like specifically dedicated to Stanley, just as a note.
00:12:27
Speaker
Um, so we are gonna begin the scene with Aunt May.
Aunt May's Storyline
00:12:31
Speaker
She is awake, as we said before. Little finger guns of confetti. And Peter is rushing into the hospital.
00:12:42
Speaker
He is like super thrilled. He's got like happy tears that she's like finally awake. Aunt May's really happy to see him. And she's just like, she's like, all right, we're going to go home in the morning. And their doctor is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I want to run some more tests. Like, I'd like you to stay for like a couple more days. And Aunt May's like, nope, I'm fine. I'm going home.
00:13:11
Speaker
I don't care what you say. I'm going home. This is what I want. This is what I'm gonna do. I feel fine. I'm going home. And so the doctor happens back and forth and Peter Parker's like, I don't know, like maybe we should keep you here. If like doctor wants to run tests and she's like, nope, I'm going home. Like she's just, she's ready. She knows what she wants to do. While this like debate is happening,
00:13:35
Speaker
Peter Parker like goes to like briefly look out the window and just like sees a glimpse of like the scarlet spider out the window like escaping because he's just been he's been keeping a watchful eye this whole time. You saw it in the very beginning like with the exile returns him kind of peeking in on May and then like escaping before Peter Parker shows up.
00:14:01
Speaker
And there was a point in Peter Parker's like, man, I can't believe that he's like being so reckless, just like dressed as Spider-Man staring into this window. Cause like Aunt May is like afraid of Spider-Man and like she would have a heart attack if she saw Spider-Man out the window. Like what the hell? And Ben Riley, as he's like climbing up now from his point of view, he's like,
00:14:29
Speaker
I've been doing like my own thing now for five years and it's like, I know who I am and I have myself identity, but it's just like, there's some people where it's like, like Aunt May, that he just like, he holds so incredibly close to him because that's just like one of those memories that's like, I can't let go of, like I have such strong feeling of like love and compassion towards this like woman. Like, I gotta check on her.
00:14:56
Speaker
which is like, I get that, that makes sense. There's some things that you just like can't shake off from, you know, whatever. As he's like escaping the hospital scene, Scarlet Spider catches a glimpse of Kane, but it's only for a second, he disappears in a flash of lightning. And literally the scene ends with Ben Riley being like, ah yes, Kane.
The Jackal's Dangerous Nature
00:15:23
Speaker
One of my enemies, no clue why he wants to destroy me. I'm like, that's how it ends. And I'm like, me too. Me freaking too. There is an interlude.
00:15:39
Speaker
with the jackal and he's at Ravencroft and he's like, I want to get out of here. Get me out. I'm not crazy. Like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like he attracts the attention of a guard. And like when the guard is close enough to like his window, he's like, I'm not actually crazy. I'm actually just super dangerous. And if I wanted to get out of here, I could, and I could turn your head into a melon and eat your face.
00:16:07
Speaker
But this is where I want to be. I'm exactly where I want to be. I'm going to go back to pretending I'm crazy now. And it's just like, it's a super weird scene. And I'm like, all right, that's the end of that. It's a weird thing for Jackal to be pretending to be crazy and be so acting crazy in pretty much every other scene. So there's really no difference.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting character. I think the only purpose of this scene was to be a reminder of like, hey, this isn't over. He's going to come back. He's where he wants to be. That's all it served.
Main Storyline's Compelling Nature
00:17:01
Speaker
I think what happened is this was maybe a thing that was added.
00:17:06
Speaker
during editing maybe. Because again, if we thought that this was going to be the last issue of the clone saga, why would you add this?
00:17:15
Speaker
I think they had the idea was they were going to end it here, but when they went into like probably a few months before this, they were like, Oh, Hey, this is doing fine. Let's extend it out. And so a lot of their plans to wrap things up here. That's, I think that's why you get the, uh, the loose ends to keep coming back. Yeah. And then, then you get like, Oh, well now we got to check in on Jackal and stuff like that. But I think.
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah. That being said, you know, the everything else seems to be working just fine. And so far, the loose ends are annoying, but they're not, they're not destroying the story. Yeah. It's like, okay. Yeah. But we're going to get back to the better part of the story now. Aunt May gets home.
00:18:11
Speaker
Mary J has just like cooked all of her food for her and like cleaned up the house for her. And Aunt May is being very like kind of just remembering the past, just kind of like, everything's like how it was before. This house smells like years ago, like kind of things like that where it's like, she's just looking back a lot.
00:18:39
Speaker
very fondly and she congratulates MJ on her baby though she was not told explicitly about the baby she just kind of she's like I know these things and then kind of retells a story of like I remember when Peter's mom like you know got pregnant and like the whole story with that and again she's just she's really like she's being very reminiscent and like to her heart
00:19:07
Speaker
and just kind of sharing all these stories that she wants to share. And it's really nice. She's being the sweet grandma that we love. Yes. She's being very family-oriented. And she's moving a bit slow and a bit uneasy. And our lovely married couple of Peter and MJ, they're like, are you OK? Are you sure?
00:19:35
Speaker
we shouldn't have kept you at the hospital and she's like nope I'm exactly where I want to be like I'm just gonna go take some of my medication and I'm gonna go to bed and I'm fine so yeah so she goes to bed it's all nice and stuff and suddenly Scarlet Spider turns up and like kind of sneaks Peter away to like talk in private in secret without anybody seeing them
00:20:05
Speaker
And this whole conversation essentially is Ben telling Peter that he's going away for good. And no matter what kind of gaslighting the jackal was trying to pull, he knows like who he is and what he wants to be. And this is essentially just Ben saying goodbye. And he promises that like, Peter is never going to see him again. He's like, we're not,
00:20:33
Speaker
You're doing your own thing. You're going to go do your own thing. We're not going to keep in touch. Like I'm wishing you the best, but like I'm staying away from you so I can go beat me. And it's very interesting to see like how Peter reacts because he's kind of like he wants Ben to keep in touch with him.
00:20:57
Speaker
even though in the past it was very much like he didn't really want anything to do with Ben. So it's very interesting to see how his opinion has changed since the whole Jackal debacle, because you can kind of tell, excuse me, that his experience with the Jackal really shook him up kind of existentially, and it's kind of made him appreciate
00:21:25
Speaker
who Ben is in relation to him. Yeah, I was gonna say, even in the previous story that we just covered, Peter thinks of Ben as a brother. Yeah, it like slowly develops and you kind of see the peak of that year. Yeah. Because Peter kind of realizes like, oh man, I'm gonna like,
00:21:49
Speaker
I don't really want this person to go. I understand why they're doing it, but I don't want them fully gone from my life. But as of now, Ben is leaving. He's gonna be gone. Upstairs, Aunt May is discussing with MJ the importance of being your spouse's friend. And she's going back to talking about her marriage
00:22:17
Speaker
to Uncle Ben and Peter's parents and how they were not just partners, but they were friends. And that friendship is important in a strong romantic relationship.
00:22:36
Speaker
which was like really cool. I was like, this is a great conversation. And I totally like, it's a thing I agree with. Like, man, Aunt May slaps. She's just the best character. Compare this to every time Anna has shown up.
00:22:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah. It's so funny though, because Aunt May is just like, and I'm still my best friend. And they kind of just talk about Aunt May is like, oh, and your aunt and I were trying to get you and Peter together for so long. And again, with friendship and relationships and things like that,
00:23:17
Speaker
And it's just like a, it's a very nice conversation that she has with MJ. And it's, it's pretty much like just being like, I really love that you're there for my son slash nephew kind of situation, or grandson, whatever. And like, you know, just really happy that you're in his life and that you're in my life. It's a very like kind, validating experience. And then she goes to sleep. She's like, good night.
00:23:49
Speaker
snooze, snooze, snooze. And then they go downstairs and Peter and MJ are watching some old home videos of Peter's childhood.
Peter Parker's Identity Struggles
00:23:59
Speaker
And this kind of makes Peter have an existential crisis about his memories and how they define him as a person.
00:24:10
Speaker
And this apparently like, this surprised me because Mary Jane is just like, is this have anything to do? Like this is about Ben Riley, isn't it? So she knows about Ben Riley and the clones and everything. She's just never seen them. I thought she had, I guess I just didn't think that she knew anything about them. I mean like he, they, they're married.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I kind of forget sometimes that, like, she knows he's Spider-Man. Yeah, I mean, they are married, and it makes sense that, like, Peter would tell her about just, you know, these big, important, I mean, imagine if he didn't, and then Ben shows up, like... Yeah, like, that would have been pretty wild. So I just, I guess I just, it wasn't a thing that I thought about. I was like, yeah, she probably doesn't know. And then I was like, oh,
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, they would know. But essentially like the whole like, is this about Ben Riley thing? The scene ends with like her being like, look, we have our life together. Your life is yours and ours. You're fine. Like kind of basically like telling Peter what Ben Riley had to tell himself.
00:25:31
Speaker
You know what I'm saying? But it's kind of cool to see how that conversation happens when you have your significant other telling you. It's very interesting. And again, it kind of shows that it's like she is his friend and is there for him. So that was nice. Now, if we zoom out of
00:26:00
Speaker
the house and this very nice scene. There's just like a man on the other side of the street, kind of stalking the Parker house. And it's very bizarre. We're like, who is this man? He's got very round glasses and a trench coat and a fedora. He's a man of mystery. It's very bizarre. And he is on a call with Judas Traveler. He's back. Oh, everyone's favorite.
00:26:31
Speaker
Everyone's favorite convenient man. And so he is communicating the Parker whereabouts to Judas Traveler. And Judas Traveler is with this woman named Medea. I don't know. I don't think she's come up here before.
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah, so Medea was with Judas Traveler during the power and responsibility arc, but she was one of the people that it didn't matter. It was just like his pack of people and none of them were any special, there was nothing to them for me to really give a shit about their names.
00:27:17
Speaker
Okay, but yeah, so he's with Medea and they're like, they're planning to mess with Peter and Ben in some way. And we discover that the man who is outside of the house, his name is Mr. Knocked. I have not heard that name before. He also might've been one of the people that was with the traveler gang, but like- Okay, one of the travelers. They're all so weird and just not, none of them stand out.
00:27:47
Speaker
That's the end of that whole scene, essentially. And then we go away from the house. We go to where Ben Riley is. And it's kind of like he was supposed to have left by now, but he's struggling to do so. He just can't quite pack up his things and go. And I think it's kind of supposed to be like the real final test.
00:28:16
Speaker
He wants to go be his own person, but he just, he feels like he has to stay a little longer. He feels like something's keeping him here, and he can't quite figure out what it is, and it's kind of torturing him a little bit. And then it goes straight to a tiny scene with Peter Parker 3.0, and he's sitting on a bench, having his own little, yes, P3PO. I forgot about that already.
00:28:44
Speaker
Um, so P3PO, he's sitting on a bench. He's in a lot of mental distress because he's just like, I don't know who I am. I don't know where to go. I have no resources except for my jeans and t-shirt and jacket and like.
00:28:59
Speaker
So he's just been sitting on this bench for a couple hours, apparently, and he gets approached by a police officer who's like, young man, you've been sitting on that bench with your hand holding your head for so long. Like, you got to get out of here. You got to go find a place to sleep and.
00:29:18
Speaker
P-3PO is like, I don't have a place to sleep. I didn't think that through. And the cop accuses him of being drunk. And then P-3PO is like, wait, I'm not drunk. I don't know what's happening. I'm just really confused. And the police officer is like, let me see your ID.
00:29:42
Speaker
And he's like, I don't have an ID. And then suddenly his body just takes control and he just like crawls up a wall and flees the scene, which really confuses him. He's like, what the hell did I just do? What's happening to me? Why did I flee the scene? He's really confused.
00:30:06
Speaker
How did I crawl up a wall? He's like, what the heck has happened? That's not what I wanted to do. Like it was just like his body was an autopilot. It was very bizarre. Now we're going to flash forward to a week.
Aunt May's Heartfelt Moment with Peter
00:30:25
Speaker
A week has gone by now.
00:30:27
Speaker
And it's like it is a perfectly normal uneventful week. Nothing happens. Like everything's just copacetic and chilling and good and fine. Peter.
00:30:44
Speaker
takes like Aunt May out on like a little like, you know, mother-son kind of date kind of thing. And they go to the top of the Empire State Building and Aunt May is like, oh, this is like one of my favorite places to go all the time.
00:31:04
Speaker
Uncle Ben would take me and sure it was like a cheap date but it's always like such a beautiful view and like she's just having a very nice time being up here and she's happy to like be out and about and not kind of just in bed. And there's a point where she's like, Peter, how does it feel flying around the city from building to building?
00:31:32
Speaker
And he's like, feels pretty great. Wait a minute. How do you like, I'm so, and he like, he realizes that she knows that like he's Spider-Man. And she's like, and he's just starts apologizing. He's like, so sorry, I never told you. I just, I just felt like, you know, you were so afraid of him and I didn't want you to be afraid of me. And he's like trying to explain himself. And she's like, no, no.
00:32:02
Speaker
It's okay. Like, you know, you did what you had to do and you did the right thing. And like, how, like, how could I not know? Like, cause of course it's you and just like your uncle Ben would be so proud. And like, you just have like such a good soul, all of these things. And then eventually she's just like, I'm proud of you.
00:32:31
Speaker
and they hug on top of the Empire State Building, and it's just like the cutest little panel. And I was like, oh my God! It was really nice. I had a very good time reading it. And it was just like Peter getting the piece of validation that he needed as a person. He got his maternal figures approval in his life.
00:33:01
Speaker
which is like really cool and really special. And I really enjoyed that.
Aunt May's Passing and Funeral
00:33:09
Speaker
After this really nice scene though, things start to go a little south. Aunt May starts to not feel very well. And she's like, I'd like to go home now. Like we gotta go home. And so they get her home, they get her in bed. And she's like, it's my time.
00:33:27
Speaker
And like you kind of see it coming as you're reading it because it's just like it's very much just like you're seeing the scene of this like old woman doing like she she's very clearly finishing things up as she's talking to people. You get there's the seeing Peter connect with like old memories lots of
00:33:49
Speaker
There's a sense of things coming to an end. And Aunt May kind of talking about the importance of, like, relationships and, like, you know, validating that it's okay that he's Spider-Man. Like, she's very clearly, like... She's settling the score. She's doing... She's laying her cards down on the table. Right. She's walking away. And she's just, like, she's... She has time alone. Nobody else is in the house yet. It's just her and Peter before, like,
00:34:18
Speaker
his wife and like Aunt Anna come in and everything and are with him in the end. But they get this very next goodbye. There's a lot of references to like Peter Pan in like their goodbye dialogue. I guess it was like a story that she would read to him. Yeah, and I don't know. There was that weird scene in a previous story where
00:34:44
Speaker
Peter kind of dies and he goes to that weird nexus heaven thing. Right. So she tells him during that weird death. Like go to the second star to the right. Yeah, the whole... Right till morning. Yeah, she does the Peter Pan thing.
00:35:04
Speaker
And he mentions that he had like a nightmare where he died and that's what she told him to do. So now he's telling her to do the same. And then she like passes away in her bed and Peter's there and MJ and her aunt show up and they're all just together. There's a couple of panels where it's just like,
00:35:35
Speaker
you know, time passing, there's no words. And then it's like the photo of her like gravestone. And I think it says, it says like, uh, she, she taught love and it's right next to, to uncle Ben's gravestone. And it's like,
00:36:01
Speaker
He was loved kind of thing and it's like it's a very nice duo of like they're together again, right? And There is a funeral It's a it's a small panel that kind of goes with like the silent Mm-hmm set of panels And as this is going on like when she passes away in the house Ben Riley is on the roof of the house and
00:36:30
Speaker
Yeah. And that is kind of, yeah. And he's like, he's alone and he's very, you know, distraught and grieving alone. And at the end of the funeral, he goes to the grave alone to like pay his respects. So it's, you're seeing kind of like the two ways that it's like
00:36:51
Speaker
people are grieving about it. And that's kind of like the thing that was holding him back from fully leaving. Cause I, it's like, it was alluded that like he could sense that like something was going on with her. So this whole kind of like funeral and grieving period is, is very abruptly stopped because there's like a knock at
Peter's Arrest: A Dramatic Cliffhanger
00:37:19
Speaker
Peter's apartment, he's with his wife, and it's the police. And they're like, we have a warrant for your arrest. The warrant has come in. And Mary Jane's just like, what are you talking about? He didn't do anything. This is insane. What are these charges even? And they're like, murder. It's like, uh.
00:37:46
Speaker
And he gets taken away in a police car. And as he's driving away, he sees the scarlet spider is on top of his house. And Peter's just like, what the hell? This is insane. And inside the house, Mary Jane is like freaking out. She's like, oh my God, I have to find a lawyer.
00:38:06
Speaker
Who am I going to call? Like I can't call Matt Murdock because he's dead, but apparently he's not dead. He's Daredevil. And like, I don't know who to call. And then she's like, no, I just got to go to the police station. Like Peter needs me right now. And so she's like about to run out the door and then all of a sudden just like Scarlet Spiders in the house. And he's like, hey, it's about time we met face to face. And he like pulls off his mask and it's Ben Riley slash Peter Parker's face.
00:38:34
Speaker
And it's like, it's a very like high energy ending because it's full of panic when you were just at such a low grieving sentimental moment. It's like, it just really like pitches up. It's kind of crazy. And it just, it really shows you that like, it's not, it's now not over. You had like a lot of like things, things are,
00:38:59
Speaker
Things were like coming to like a nice conclusion. If it were to end here, it kind of would be like, yes, Peter's moving to the next hardship, but now he has better tools to take care of himself. And he's like gonna be with his partner to deal with it kind of thing. Right. But not anymore. Nope. And then they were just like, fuck it. We're gonna do a whole new thing now.
00:39:28
Speaker
Yeah. And then they kind of take it a little further. They have like a little, I can't really call it an epilogue because it's not, it's not fully like directly after this. It's just kind of like a backend interlude really where it's Peter has a nightmare remembering like the burglar that killed uncle Ben. And he's like, Oh, like, you know,
00:39:57
Speaker
It's like a point where he was wondering if he should kill the burglar or not, and then he wakes up and he's like, ah, my uncle! And this is very far back when he's a teenager, and he's like, well, I want to show Aunt May that he got justice still because Spider-Man saved the day, and he's maybe going to tell Aunt May that he's Spider-Man, and it's at a point where Aunt May was very afraid of Spider-Man.
00:40:23
Speaker
And he's like feeling a lot of this, like as his fault, like, and that's, and he's determined to just make everything right again. And that's kind of where that back end interlude ends. Back end flashback maybe is a better term. Cause it's very clearly like when he's a teenager kind of starting out. Yeah. This is actually specifically supposed to be the day after
00:40:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's called the morning after. Yeah, it was an interesting thing to add at the end of this. Like, because we just got to, if anything, it would have been better to start with the morning after and then do the gift because it would have reminded readers, like, this is how Peter always thinks Aunt May thinks of Spider-Man.
00:41:15
Speaker
And then you end with her being like, I approve. I'm proud of you.
Revealing 'A Death in the Family'
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I kind of, it feels weird to have it at the end where it's like, cause then you're kind of like, okay, well shouldn't feel like that in the end. Like I, I think it would have been maybe more impactful at the beginning.
00:41:36
Speaker
I can definitely see that. So yeah, I can definitely see where it would be better had this story was placed at the beginning. I still like, I mean, this is a comic that I own. It is one of my favorites. Well, so do you want to tell them what the title is?
00:42:03
Speaker
on the actual cover? The title on the actual cover is a death in the family. A bit of a spoiler. The cover itself, which I'll go into more detail in a minute, is an actual tombstone.
00:42:21
Speaker
That Spider-Man is like squatting on, he's owling on top of. Yeah, it's weird. And like, I get that they were really trying to going like, hey, you need to buy this. But at the same time, you're giving away one of the like, the points of this being something that like, you don't fully see coming. And it hurts, you know?
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah. And like it like it it was very emotional. Like and I think I could have gotten more emotional if it was just called The Gift and they came up with maybe like if they had kind of a little hidden thing that they wanted to like, you know, put a little Easter
Marvel's Milestone Strategy
00:43:09
Speaker
egg. Yeah. In the corner. But I understand like, you know, they wanted it to be big, but I don't know, maybe the lean into like the 400 thing.
00:43:19
Speaker
Definitely to lean into the 400 thing because that's how Marvel approaches anything that is like if it is a Multiple of 25 they do something crazy and One thing that I thought was really interesting is the morning after I don't know if you noticed it has two writers and one is JMD Mattias the other one was Stan Lee and
00:43:45
Speaker
So Stan actually came back for the 400th issue to write this cute little scene with Peter as a teenager. And I really liked that. I thought that was fun. Yeah. I thought it was a really cool piece, especially just looking at it by itself. Yeah.
00:44:08
Speaker
Now I'm going to, I'm going to be covering the other backup story in my next episode because it actually goes with those stories. It's called. Did Stan Lee come back for those too? No, but you have John Romita Jr. and John Romita Sr., both well-known Spider-Man artists.
00:44:40
Speaker
coming back to do the artwork for those stories. And this is, I mean, all cards on the table right now, these three backup stories, my favorite thing that we have read for this. Oh, okay. It is, so if we could have had more of this kind of thing, I think this would have been
00:45:10
Speaker
a very different clone saga. Right. I definitely think that this, I think the 400th as a whole is one of my, is definitely like in the top of like what we've read. Oh, absolutely. It's a great, it's just a singularly a great issue.
00:45:32
Speaker
Like I was a bit nervous cause it's just like, you know, we've had, we've had a journey reading the clone saga and you know, the fact that the 400th was right in the middle of it. And I guess, again, I guess I thought it was going to be the end and I don't know how it really did during, excuse me.
00:45:55
Speaker
But I was kind of just like, oh, I hope it goes well. And then I saw that it was like dedicated to Stan Lee. And I was like, I hope he likes it. And then I ended up being like, I liked it. It was good. It's emotional. And it's like, that's a good one to dedicate to him. Because it really just, it focuses on like, one of the best characters of
00:46:27
Speaker
Now I'm going to get into some of the trivia for this so that we can wrap this up. We've been recording for, I think, longer than we ever have. I went on one too many rants about Kane and now it's like midnight. Not actually.
00:46:49
Speaker
The first thing I'm going to do is, uh, I'm going to quote from Glenn Greenberg, uh, from the life of Riley. And then I'm going to possibly, uh, take some of the fun out of, I don't know, fun, some of the goodness out of amazing Spider-Man 400. When I explained.
00:47:14
Speaker
how Marvel treated it later on. So let's first start with Glenn Greenberg. So he says, I have to say I really love Jack, the Jackal's little apprentice. Don't ask me why. I just latched on to him and really got a kick out of him.
Jackal's Apprentice: A Lighter Tone
00:47:30
Speaker
He was witty, he had a lot of energy and spirit, and he brought a certain lightness to an otherwise very serious storyline.
00:47:37
Speaker
I remember being at the Spider-Man writers' conference and just going on about how much I enjoyed Jack's presence in the stories. My exact comment was, and I'm gonna be quoting him specifically, please remember it was a different time, and certain things were seen as more acceptable than they are. My exact comment was, he's a midget Jackal. How can you go wrong with that?
00:48:06
Speaker
Um, and like, look, I like Jack. Uh, I think he's definitely annoying, but like, it was kind of a fun little character to have her. I like him way more than I liked the Jackal. And I like him more than I liked the Jackal, but I know he wouldn't work without.
00:48:26
Speaker
The Jack. Right. Yeah, yeah. So he goes on to say, I could go on and on about Amazing 400, but I'll try to focus on what I feel are the most salient points. First, after reading the issue, Tom Brevoort and I both figured that Aunt May probably figured out that Peter was Spider-Man as a result of the events of Amazing Spider-Man 200, published back in 1978.
00:48:53
Speaker
In that story, by Marv Wolfman and Keith Pollard, Spider-Man rescued Aunt May and she finally overcame her fear and hatred of the web slinger. Once she got past that, she was able to put two and two together and finally realized that the heroic young masked man who saved her was her own beloved nephew.
00:49:09
Speaker
But she decided to keep it to herself for a while until she could fully reconcile herself to that knowledge. I suspect that as far as JMD Martinez was concerned, Aunt May knew all along from the days of Stanley and Steve Ditko. But I just couldn't buy that, not from the way she was written in those old stories. We had access to her thoughts and there's simply no way she knew, not that early anyway.
00:49:31
Speaker
Also, it would have retroactively made Mae look pretty manipulative and conniving to have let Peter go on for all that time thinking she didn't know to have let him work so hard to protect her from that knowledge.
The Importance of Aunt May's Death
00:49:45
Speaker
She could have eased so much of his burden by just telling him that she knew and that she was very proud of him.
00:49:52
Speaker
But I could accept her knowing after ASM 200. And in my mind, that was the case. The good thing was that it was never stated definitively in Amazing Spider-Man 400 exactly when May found out. So it was pretty open to interpretation. Yeah. And I like that because it's very clear that it's like it took her time to be okay with it. Yeah.
00:50:16
Speaker
because that's the normal reaction to something like that. Yeah. Um, and I, it's, I think it was nice that she kind of opened up about it when she knew she was a hundred percent okay with it. Yeah. Cause like, I, you know, I'm sure that would be hard if like, you know, you had a big thing about you and
00:50:44
Speaker
Someone's just like, oh, yeah, that's totally fine. But in actuality, like they're still processing. Right. That big thing. Because then it's like, you know, you might try and have a conversation with them about it and they might have like more negative feelings about it. And it's like, but I thought you said you were OK. And, you know, you might want your support at that time. Wow. So crazy how this is also just so close to like a coming out story. Yeah.
00:51:16
Speaker
which is also just very heartwarming. Yeah. Cause it's like supportive family. I don't know. I like supportive family. Glenn Greenberg goes on to say, now onto Aunt May's death. I had mixed emotions about it.
00:51:32
Speaker
As I've said before, I'm not really big on killing off characters, especially ones who were as important to the series as Aunt May had been. I disagreed with the writers that Aunt May had outlived her usefulness, that there was nothing left to do with her, that she should just be killed off already. I felt that was very short-sighted. Sure, these particular writers felt that way about her, but the fact was, they weren't going to be writing the books forever. Therefore, why make such a drastic permanent change that could hamper the series in the future?
00:52:02
Speaker
And I'm going to break in here because I am of the same opinion that like killing off characters is not always the best thing to do. But this was an important thing to do. I think I agree. I think this was super important. I think that like I'm sad to see her go because I like her, but. Like, no, I can think of a lot more useless character killers than this.
00:52:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And I think from a character standpoint, it makes so much sense for Peter to have to move on now. Yeah. And she decided to, you know, like in a, in a very like realistic way. Cause she is an older adult and like now Peter is an adult.
00:52:57
Speaker
Right. And having, you know, a kid of his own. And so I'm going to skip ahead a little bit in what he was saying, because it's pretty much just restating some of what we've already said. Yeah. But he says, maybe I didn't like the idea of Aunt May dying from a creative standpoint, but it was so beautifully done in the actual story that it totally worked for me. So much so
00:53:20
Speaker
that I felt very strongly that this death should remain permanent, that it should not be undone in some future story, that it should stand as one of the most powerful moments in Spider-Man's history. Alas, we all know what happened later on, and I'll try to get into that in a later column. And I will fill you in on what happened later on in just a minute. Is it during the Clone Saga or no? No, it's after the Clone Saga.
Controversy over Aunt May's Death Reversal
00:53:47
Speaker
Uh, which is, I was waiting to bring it up until we got to this point because it also recontextualized some of, some of the stuff that we've already read. Okay. Now for some behind the scenes stuff. Bob Budiansky had been in place as Spider-Man editor in chief for a short while by the time, uh, amazing Spider-Man 400 was being put together as a courtesy. Bob placed a call to Stan Lee to let him know that we were planning to kill off Aunt May and to ask for Stan's blessing.
00:54:15
Speaker
Stan, gentleman that he is, was very gracious about the whole thing and certainly gave his blessing. He offered his best wishes to Bob and the Spider Gang.
00:54:24
Speaker
Of course, when May's death was greeted with dismay and contempt by contingent of very vocal fans, Stan publicly denied any knowledge of or involvement with that story and said that he would never want to see Aunt May die. Side note, he did the same thing with Gwen Stacy's death. He said it was fine. Oh my God. And then later said, oh, I never said that. That's petty. Stan.
00:54:54
Speaker
Sufi stan. You wrote a whole letter being like, I love Spiderman. All the things that he does. A normal family problem. Grief. Great. So you can't take it back.
00:55:10
Speaker
Greenberg goes on to say, we had a good laugh over it in the office because it was so typical of Stan. He hates to have any fan angry at him. But the absolute truth is that Bob Budiansky did indeed call Stan in advance to let him know and to ask for his blessing. And if Stan had not given his blessing, would we have done the story anyway? I mean, probably. But like I said, Stan is a true gentleman who would not have wanted to put Bob and the writers in that uncomfortable position.
00:55:38
Speaker
So no matter how he may have really felt about it, he was very cooperative. Yeah, that's funny. This is where Bob, sorry, this is where Glenn is going to get into the gimmick for the Amazing Spider-Man 400. And I'll tell you a bit of my thoughts too. Okay.
00:56:00
Speaker
Now, remember that gimmick cover for Amazing Spider-Man 400? It was supposed to be a tombstone featuring both the familiar Amazing Spider-Man logo and a small Spider-Man figure engraved upon the face of the stone. So I don't know if, my guess is it doesn't look this way on Marvel Unlimited, but the physical copy is a cutout. It is a hard, like a card stock cutout of the tombstone.
00:56:30
Speaker
and the image on it is supposed to be like embossed, but it's done so poorly. You can't read it. It looks like a gray blob. That's all it looks like.
00:56:47
Speaker
So, uh, Greenberg goes on to say, I remember that this was the first gimmick cover that Bob had to oversee a Spider-Man EIC, and he was a little overwhelmed by it. I'm not sure it was his idea to do this gimmick cover. Um, it was a night, or if it was an idea that was foisted upon him by our marketing department. I suspect it was the latter because the marketing guys were obsessed with gimmick covers and used any excuse to do one as often as possible. And as a.
00:57:17
Speaker
comic book fan that liked a lot of the 90s stuff. Yes, they absolutely did. Everything had a gimmicky cover at some point. So this, I'm looking at it now on the Marvel Unlimited. I misremembered he is not owling on top of it. There is a like white, it's supposed to be like an etched Spider-Man on a gravestone.
00:57:47
Speaker
It says, like, the Amazing Spider-Man 400, like, on the top arced, and then a Death in the Family underneath the, like, the marble-looking Spider-Man. And then, like, there's, like, a lot of, like, weird green and blue and brown hues on the gravestone. It's interesting. So imagine this, right, where
00:58:16
Speaker
the shape of the tombstone that's on there is just a cutout. And everything on there is supposed to be embossed onto this gray thing with no ink. And so what you end up having literally is just the shape of a tombstone and you can't read anything on it. It's just this flat piece. I love it. It's awful.
00:58:44
Speaker
It is one of the worst things I've ever seen. The only things that were worse is when they would do the holographic things because those would die out so soon. And then it would just be like this weird thing. We should do a side by side. Yes. Of the two covers.
00:59:01
Speaker
Greenberg finishes this up by saying, final thought, I was really jazzed that Peter wouldn't get a moment's rest after Aunt May's funeral, that there was not a clean ending to the issue. I thought it was a great way to handle it. I felt that the cliffhanger ending would prevent readers from looking at ASM 400 as the jumping off point, a good way to stop following the series. I believed Peter's arrest for murder would get the readers very intrigued about what was going to happen next.
00:59:27
Speaker
So they would stick with us. At that moment in time, it was a really good feeling to be part of the Spider-Man group. And I can see that. This was a really good ending. I think it was a really good issue, you know.
00:59:42
Speaker
Yeah, I really liked the issue and I guess because I know that it has to continue because we have a lot more scheduled to read. I'm like, okay, like this is good. And like, I think if it was again, another scene where it's like, you're in the police station and they're like, the warrant papers still aren't in yet. That would have been really lame. The last thing I want to talk about in regards to
01:00:11
Speaker
Uh, this before we wrap things up, cause we have, we have also, we've just been recording for two goddamn long. Um, yeah, the Aunt May's death, it was eventually undone and it was undone in what I think is the absolute dumbest way possible.
01:00:37
Speaker
I am not going to get into like the lead up to revealing that she's alive. I actually have those issues too. Um, because I was so into that, but it, it deals with a lot with like sort of the end of the clone saga. So I'm not going to talk about that, but what you do eventually find out is that there is a person who has kept Aunt May prisoner.
01:01:06
Speaker
since she had a stroke, which means that the person who was in a coma was not Aunt May. It was an actress hired and made to look like her in order to mess with Peter. And this is where it gets
01:01:35
Speaker
Awful in terms of like going over what we've already read because we've seen what Aunt May was thinking We have seen like her coming in and out of the coma. We've seen her like her spirit And we've seen her thoughts like trying to let go and then we get this amazing issue where we deal with everything that like Peter's been dealing with and what Aunt May has been dealing with and
01:02:02
Speaker
You see her pass on and Peter is dealing with that. And then however many issues later, it has revealed that this is not even- The most meta actress we've ever seen in our lives. It is the most insane. And I don't think they, like, I don't think they get into much detail as to like how this happened.
01:02:24
Speaker
But it is insane. The whole point, honestly, of bringing her back was to, because this, it happens after the Clone Saga. The whole point was to just move Spider-Man out of the Clone Saga and get everything back to kind of the way it was before the Clone Saga happened. So part of that was, well, we have to bring Aunt May back because we can't, they're trying to make it as though the Clone Saga never happened.
01:02:54
Speaker
It is awful. It is one of the worst decisions I think they have ever done. And which also means Aunt May knowing that Peter is Spider-Man is not really a thing. When she comes back, she doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man.
01:03:12
Speaker
That's frustrating. In fact, in, in the early two thousands, uh, there is a, an entire storyline where she finds out he is Spider-Man on accident and she's mad at him. It's so the exact opposite of, okay. This is, um, I'm just going to pretend that's like not a thing. And I'm just gonna, I, cause I actually, I like what they did here more.
01:03:42
Speaker
Right. I do too, you know, and I like having Aunt May around for some of those other stories. But like I said, there could have been a different way of doing that. Like even just Dr. Strange magically brings her back and she doesn't remember anything. You know, that's fine. Yeah. I feel like that's such a punch in the face way to bring that person back. It's a shame. Well, anyway,
01:04:10
Speaker
I hope everyone enjoyed this chaotic mess of what I assume is going to be two episodes. I'll make a decision. I think it has to be. Yeah, it's crazy long. Thanks for going on this journey. Yeah.
01:04:27
Speaker
You can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedantic at gmail.com.
01:04:45
Speaker
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01:05:17
Speaker
Brownie wants to show you his donut. That's weird. OK, we're back. Oh, OK. I realized I went to the other tab and then I was like, I can't see when you hit record so that I came back. It does a little countdown. It's fine. I don't see the countdown ever. Yeah, for me, it says like three, two, one. And then it starts recording. Oh, that's fun. Anyway, back to Spider-Man.