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Spider-Man Clone Saga: Crossfire Part 1
42 Plays1 year ago
Derek and Corinne play a drinking game.
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Derek L. Chase, and joining me on this episode, as always, is the wonderful Corinne Levy. It's me. So we have the past, I think, couple of times recorded, have had the privilege of hearing our own musical intro.
Musical Intro Discussion
00:00:38
Speaker
like, because now we can just hear it like you press play and it's like it's going through my eardrums. And I think that's very exciting. However, have you noticed to me, our musical intro in in the best way, I love it to preface. Um, you know, those like, those country music, like ABC family, like drama shows, where it's like,
00:01:05
Speaker
Do you know what I'm talking, like your Nashville drama? Tazar? Tazar it should not sound like, it would be like the part of the commercial for like tonight on Nashville.
00:01:27
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I like it. I think it's fun, but it's got that vibe to it. I gotta put on my good denim and like burst through a bar and like punch a purse.
00:01:40
Speaker
Look at my I come from Indiana. I have a Midwestern background. So this is kind of like, I guess, playing into that a bit. This song reminds me that you're from Indiana. Before we get too far into this episode, before I talk about some of the weirdness of this episode, I need to ask what your bright spot is.
00:02:03
Speaker
Remembering you're from Indiana.
Personal Updates and Interests
00:02:06
Speaker
No, I don't know. I think my bright spot was I got to see some friends and some family this weekend. So that was a lot of fun. I took my family to the Mystic Aquarium, which was very fun because I didn't know they had beluga whales there. Oh, shit, I didn't know.
00:02:31
Speaker
I had never seen a beluga whale in person. I know the baby beluga song and I, sorry, I'm burping now. This is gonna be a problem for the whole episode. But you see pictures of them and stuff and I'm like, yeah, belugas are so cool. But I saw them in person and they are so fascinating.
00:03:00
Speaker
They are like unnaturally, naturally smooth. Just like that. I know exactly. Yeah. They look like flexible, like marble. It's super bizarre. And they got like the most articulate heads. Like, like, you know, I don't know how better to explain like their head shape. It's kind of funky. It is very fun. It is. It is that funky in real life. And it's crazy. I like.
00:03:30
Speaker
It's so, I feel like this is the equivalent of meeting like a celebrity in person. You're like, oh my God, this is what your face looks like in person. I feel that for the belugas. And that was a really great experience for me. That might peak it, like getting to see, getting to see people. We have a friend coming to visit tomorrow. We're going to all go see the D&D movie coming out because we're a bunch of frickin' nerds.
00:03:59
Speaker
I'm interested in your thoughts on that. Cause to me, I'll let you know. I think it looks like it's a very, uh, middle of the road movie. I, well, I'll let you know my intentions going into the movie. And then the next time we record, I'll let you know how if I liked it or not. Um, my intention with this movie is that this is a straight up popcorn movie going in with my friends and like, uh, if
00:04:26
Speaker
I have casually played D&D for a decent amount of time. Like I have done some really long. I don't know if they're like I'm not like a critical role person who's like, you know, doing eight hours a session for three years or whatever. Like I I did I think we would do like three hours a week for a couple months. And I did like maybe two campaigns of something like that.
00:04:55
Speaker
because we all decided during COVID to play. I had a fun time. I would do it again. I've got somebody who wants me to join their campaign, but I got to figure out if I can actually squeeze it into my 24 hours a day, seven days a week kind of schedule. We'll see.
00:05:15
Speaker
because the clone saga comes first, Derek.
Cake Decorating Background
00:05:21
Speaker
But yeah, I understand concepts of D&D. I know lingo. I don't know every spell, but I got the gist of it. I've played it enough. I'm sure I'll be like, oh, ha. I get that. I understood that reference.
00:05:40
Speaker
and maybe you'll understand that reference, reference on reference. But yeah, I'm excited to see it. I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm gonna eat popcorn, drink a soda, live, laugh, love. If you have more time afterwards, you guys should have a drink and watch the, it was like 1999 Dungeons & Dragons movie. Oh my God, I wanna watch it so bad because I'm pretty sure it's like,
00:06:08
Speaker
wild. I saw it when it came out. I feel like it's straight goofy and I'm so about that. It's as good as it looks. I love that. Yeah. That brings me a lot of joy. What's your bright spot? Oh, I know. I have so many actually, cause things have been going pretty well on my end. Like I've been incredibly stressed about lots of different things, but very busy. Uh, as you know, um,
00:06:38
Speaker
But along with that, like I've got, I've had a lot of good things happen. I bought a, so for my store, for where I work, I ended up purchasing, you know those like cricket machines? Yes. Oh my gosh. Do you have a cricket machine now? I got the like the small one, the cricket joy. It's like, I didn't know who's called the cricket joy, but that brings me joy.
00:07:06
Speaker
It's, it's a tiny thing. It's like, I don't know. It's like maybe, uh, like a foot long or like two feet, like, you know, it's, it's much shorter than the big ones. And, um, I don't know. The big ones are meant to be like, if forever stays on a table. Yeah. But I have to have one that I can like move back and forth. Right. Like I have stuff that I'm, I'm, I'm doing and.
00:07:29
Speaker
You got a cricket on the go. Right. I purchased it because I was talking to, we're putting together this like thing at work and I was talking to the person that I put in charge of doing it. And the, the cricket came up in conversation and she quickly was like talking me into buying it. So I was like, hold on, let me bring it up to Austin.
00:07:56
Speaker
Let me see what Austin thinks. And Austin was like, absolutely buy it.
Spider-Man's Clone Saga
00:08:01
Speaker
Well, okay. I love Austin. And the reason I love shopping with Austin is because she will tell you, like she will be enthusiastic very quickly about the right things to purchase. Yes. She was very on board. And part of the reason why is because she wanted a toy to play with and she has been playing with it.
00:08:25
Speaker
She, I don't know if I can, let's see if I can show you. Uh, she made us this, uh, she made the little Starfleet symbol that I put on the back of my phone. And it's like, I have like a red phone case and it's a gold, like a glittery gold, uh, design. So it actually, it looks very.
00:08:49
Speaker
It looks like the uniform. It looks like it's meant to be there. I'm going to say that is my bright spot. I love that. It's been a lot of fun. That's fun. Man, I love a cricket. I'm so happy for you.
00:09:09
Speaker
forever ago. So cricket has a fondant, um, oh really cutter machine. Yeah. And so like, it's a separate machine entirely because like, I can't see how that would
00:09:24
Speaker
going back and forth from Mr. Heels. From flat paper goods to confectionery. Right. Play-doh. Yeah, so like fun little Corinne backstory, I guess. The thing that got me into culinary was cake decorating and like baking.
00:09:45
Speaker
So what about like, uh, well, when I was a kid, like I had to do an extracurricular activity, like in middle school, it was always like, you have to do something. Um, and then eventually when I got to high school, it was like, you had to do something a season or get a job. And I was like, well, I found things to do overseas. So, um, but when I was in middle school, I needed something to do in the winter because I wasn't like doing track or whatever. So,
00:10:12
Speaker
I guess in like fifth or sixth grade watched enough cake boss to be motivated to want to decorate cakes because I thought they were really neat. I mean, they are neat.
00:10:24
Speaker
They're really cool. I loved the Cake Boss as a child. Like, oh my God, the TLC channel had a tight grip on Corinne. Did you ever go? I did, yeah. I don't remember the name of the, Carlos. Did you ever go to Carlos? Yes. And then eventually, like a couple of years ago, they built a secondary location like 20 minutes from my home.
00:10:53
Speaker
because it's just like another part of Jersey. But yes, so I have been there. It's a lot of fun. My favorite thing is the lobster tails. I love the lobster tails.
00:11:03
Speaker
Oh, you know what? I think you and I have talked about this. Yeah, it's like a flaky pastry with a good Italian cream in it. It's really good. But I wanted to be a cake boss and I was 11. So we went to AC Moore where they would host Wilton cake decorating classes. And so it would be me and then five other 50-year-old women.
00:11:28
Speaker
I did like every course. I did, I think there were like four or five courses. I did the four or five courses. Like that's just what I did after school. Um, but yeah, so I was really into it and I would make like family holiday cakes and I would make cakes for my like
00:11:48
Speaker
classroom or whatever. And so I guess like for Christmas one year, my parents just got me like this cricket machine that like it cuts fondant letters out or like, you know, fun patterns. It's really cool. I'm sure it makes your job easier.
00:12:07
Speaker
I mean, no, because you have to make the fondant and dye it the right color and stuff with your food coloring. And you also have to definitely make sure that it's rolled out to the right thing, which I was bad at doing. I was a very okay cake decorator.
00:12:29
Speaker
But it does seem like you have a very straight line in your life of like Corinne's culinary interests. Yes, it's like its own podcast. But that's okay. It's a it's a funky journey that I've been on. Perhaps I will share more stories in time. But maybe we should talk about a different funky journey, such as the Clone Saga.
00:12:53
Speaker
So throughout the last few issues, we saw a huge change in Peter's already tumultuous life. Shortly after the death of Aunt May, we find that Peter has been arrested for murder and the evidence seems pretty airtight. That's where Ben Riley, Peter's clone and easily the best Spider-Man during this era, steps in and switches places with the wall crawler so that he can both spend time with his pregnant wife and try to clear his own name.
00:13:20
Speaker
That brings us all the way up to Web of Spider-Man 125, where we get a brief one and done story to lead us into the Crossfire storyline, which we will be discussing next time.
00:13:33
Speaker
And before we get too far into this, I have something, I don't know how well this is going to go, but I will say we're going to do a drinking game episode because as I got through writing the notes for this, I was like, holy shit. There are so many moments where I'd be like, well, take a shot, take a shot, take a shot. And I am going to, I'm going to be, you don't have to tell them what you're drinking. I'm going to be drinking a sour monkey during this.
00:14:01
Speaker
I've got, I don't even know what I got. I got Gunner's Daughter Milk Stout from Mass Landing Brewing Co. It's good. It's milky. It's a stout. Those are two things I like. I love stouts. That's usually what I go for. I just really like these sour monkeys and they're pretty high in alcohol content.
00:14:22
Speaker
So as we move through the issue, that's right. We're only going to do the one issue for this episode. The one issue. As we move through the issue, I'm probably going to hit a little button here and make this noise. And that is going to be the sign for us to take a drink. And I'm going to do that where I feel like things are either brought up that
00:14:52
Speaker
Uh, don't make any sense or contradict something that came directly before it, or it's going to be something, uh, that is brought up. That is entirely new and is not followed up on in this story or the one that follows it. Cause I have read past this. So it's just another one of those instances of like, why are we, why is this here?
00:15:21
Speaker
You know, anything that makes me go, why is this here? I'll hit that one. Okay. So we're going to get silly over silly stuff. Oh my God. Yes. And I, I don't want to tip my hat too much on like how I felt about this issue. Uh, I think you can kind of get an idea, but I, I, I, I will say starting this out. I really liked it.
00:15:43
Speaker
And I will not say anything more about how I felt until at the end. We're going to go into Web of Spider-Man volume one, number 125, uh, which actually has two stories in it. The first one and like the main story, uh, is titled Lives United and is written by Terry Kavanaugh, penciled by Steven Butler, inked by Randy Emberlin, colored by Kevin Tensley and lettered by Steve Dutrow and Janice Chang.
00:16:09
Speaker
Other than Janis Chang, this is the same exact team as the previous issue of Web of Spider-Man, which would normally, that would be something I would commend in this comic, but I genuinely thought that the writer had to have been someone new to the series based on some of the shit we're about to get into.
00:16:32
Speaker
Now question before you get started. So you said there's two different stories in this issue. Is that kind of like there's an A plot and a B plot or is it like with unlimited Spider-Man where it's more like anthology? It's more like unlimited Spider-Man and the way that this comic is set up.
00:16:50
Speaker
You have the main story, and then there's the backup story, and the backup story just kinda, so the idea for the backup story, and we'll get into it, but the idea for the backup story is that it gives you context to the main story. Oh, okay, so it's like a peel behind the curtain after we've watched the show. Okay, I got it, we're good.
00:17:11
Speaker
So we start the issue with Peter in the Scarlet Spider costume, breaking into the Daily Bugle to check any files they may have on Miles Warren, better known as the Jackal. Now I'm going to already hit the button. Oh, I was going to say that seems to make sense, but okay. It does accept why the fuck is Peter wearing the Scarlet Spider costume?
00:17:34
Speaker
Because the P3O... Fuck, I'm already drunk. No, I'm just kidding. P3PO stole his costume. But he has multiple costumes. Oh, yeah. He has the Black Spider-Man mask, because I'm assuming he got it back after the...
00:17:59
Speaker
Right. So he's got the black costume. He should have a backup regular Spider-Man costume because of how often he gets into fights. I'm going to like, I will accept your reasoning. Okay. But I am going to push back on it a little bit. Because I know that they switched before.
00:18:21
Speaker
Oh, wait a minute. Hold on. Okay. Now that I'm thinking about it, why would they have switched before? Well, I guess it makes no sense. It actually brings more suspicion. They switched before so he could get home. What? Oh no. I already nodded my brain up. Right. It makes less sense than anything. I was thinking the last episode, I was like, this makes a lot of sense.
00:18:50
Speaker
Because what's his face? Ben Riley. Oh, no. OK. It still kind of makes sense in my brain. So in the end, Ben Riley trades clothes with Peter Parker because he's wearing the whole like the gray prison uniform. Right. And he just has a jacket and the black mask on. Yes. And then so so Ben Riley takes the sweatsuit and you can't just have like
00:19:21
Speaker
a black Spider-Man mask and a naked man flying through the city. So like he would have to have Ben Riley's uniform.
00:19:30
Speaker
Right. So the thing that I have a problem with here. But that makes sense only for that day. I feel like afterwards, once you're home, you take a shower, you do the laundry. Now I'm not sure. I do get the impression that this is supposed to happen very soon after that interaction. The whole like cane villain fight on the way home. Right. And we'll get into a little bit of why, like how that ties together. But
00:20:00
Speaker
I still think like, I guess he could, he could just be like leaving. A whole thing happened with his wife and it feels like he should be with her at least let's go with like an hour. Yeah. Like he's not doing the thing that like they switched purposes for. Right.
00:20:24
Speaker
Like, the whole point, Ben Riley was like, go home, take care of your wife, she needs you. And like, the whole excuse for going out and seeing all the big bad guys fighting at once was because he was like, well, I gotta protect my wife, and if I'm hearing gunshots, then I gotta go do that. But like, you don't have to investigate the jackal right now, because that's not,
00:20:54
Speaker
Congratulations, we have made it- I'm taking a, ding it, ding it for me. Congratulations, we have made it through one page of this comic book and have had to stop and debate the logic behind it. We have to debate Spider-Man's laundry cycle.
00:21:11
Speaker
Because to me, it also makes sense for him to want to continue. I mean, he might not be thinking logically, but it makes sense for him to want to continue wearing the regular Spider-Man costume because then it would... Because if Spider-Man is suddenly just like not around. Right. But Peter Parker is in prison.
00:21:34
Speaker
It brings up a lot that you have to kind of like square. Not that everyone's gonna put that together. And it's like the Daily Bugle's not putting a thing out for this person, but they always got great shots of Spider-Man. And the connection between Peter and Spider-Man in the public eye is somewhat important to the backup story. So like it is a thing that is acknowledged. Yeah. But anyway, Peter breaks into the Daily Bugle.
00:22:05
Speaker
And he is looking for anything to do with Miles Warren. He scrolls through all of the reports that they have that are about his time at Empire State University and how the death of Gwyn states, already had too much drink.
00:22:23
Speaker
and how the death of Gwen Stacy changed him, effectively giving the audience a brief review of Miles Warren's backstory, like just like why he went crazy. Oh, okay. And I like that. That's an interesting way of putting that into the story. And I think I'm getting used to the whole like comics retelling in some way of like a
00:22:52
Speaker
you know, a backstory or a hint as to what happened. Sometimes it's like a hint to what happened in the previous like issue or whatever. Um, how did this take up a lot of pages? This like, no, no, no, this was a very, this was like maybe this was good. Uh, we're going to get a little bit more. Um,
00:23:16
Speaker
But so far, we're good. And Peter comes across a report that catches his eye, which is about Miles Warren being listed as the owner of a house in New Jersey. And this was all during the time that the Jackal would have either been dead or in that incubation chamber. So it stands out as something that's like, oh, this shouldn't be the case. Does the world know
00:23:46
Speaker
Like is, is Miles Warren like an alias for the, like, do people know that they're the same? I don't know. I don't like, I'm going to guess no, but it also, I like, I'm trying to think back to when the Jackal was in Ravencroft and if they refer to him as professor Warren or anything like that.
00:24:16
Speaker
because if they do, that would indicate that it is public knowledge. If they don't, then this story makes a little more sense because it does get confusing if anyone knows that Miles Warren is the jackal. There might be a ding here or not. Okay, questionable ding. Right.
00:24:41
Speaker
Before Peter can learn anything more, his spider sense goes off, warning him that someone is coming in. So he quickly just leaps out of a window, which is, I guess, his preferred way of exiting a situation. Now, we the readers get to see the thoughts of the person who entered the room. Not the person, they're like in shadows, but we get to see their thoughts. And we learn that it's someone who is in
00:25:08
Speaker
in the Daily Bugle looking for their uncle. Now, being a huge nerd, I knew exactly who this person was. Oh, okay. But it turns out that this is their first appearance ever. So I'm not gonna ruin the surprise of who it is until we see them pop up a few more times. I am gonna hit the little...
00:25:30
Speaker
because this is a thing that is brought up, it's hinted at, but then unless you know exactly what's going on, it does not connect to anything else in the series. It's someone looking for their uncle. Correct. That works for the Daily Bugle. Yes, and I could tell you, but I think I don't know if they play a role in your story or not. Should I make a guess? You can make a guess, yeah, sure.
00:25:59
Speaker
Oh, no, wait, I'm realizing now that this is a terrible idea because the only people that I know that work at the Daily Bugle are J. Jonah James. And that's it. No, I'm just kidding. Ken Ellis, Betty Brant. The. The one that oh, oh, I can't remember his name is like Yurik or something. Yeah, Ben Yurik. Ben Yurik.
00:26:27
Speaker
Wow, go me, okay. You pulled that out, nice. Of my ass. Oh, the editor, that's like a reasonable decision-making person. Yeah, Robertson. Robertson. Hold on, now I'm gonna. Robbie Robinson. Yeah. I think that's it, I think that's all. Oh, and then like the other guy that sometimes takes photos, I think he's just an intern though.
00:26:55
Speaker
Oh, I don't remember their name. They didn't have a name, that was the thing, I don't think. And then doesn't Eddie Brock, the guy who was Venom? I think at one point he might have sold, but he used to work for the Daily Globe, I think. But he hasn't been around since the very beginning, so it's not gonna be him. I don't know. Okay, maybe I don't know.
00:27:22
Speaker
I guess I just use that opportunity to list all of the Daily Bugle employees that I know. Well, it's one of those things where I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things to the clone saga, whether or not you know. Okay. But I do know that they do make at least one more appearance after this very soon, and I think in your story arc.
00:27:49
Speaker
And that's why I didn't know if they reveal anything there. Because if I'm reading this, if this were a brand new issue that came out and I know nothing about the future of Spider-Man comics, I would not know that this person existed, who they are, why they're related to someone who works at the Daily Bugle, or how it connects to the rest of this issue. It's just another punk looking for their uncle.
00:28:15
Speaker
Right. And it's a thing where like knowing who that is, I know how this connects to the rest of this issue, but it's never made clear in the actual comic itself. Has this character, and then now it's just guess who, has this character been in other runs of Spider-Man?
00:28:37
Speaker
This is their absolute first appearance. Oh, this is like their absolute first. So like genuinely, if you read this when it came out, you would be like... You would have fucking no idea what's going on. Who's this person? Okay. Yeah, that's... Okay. That's why I put the little ding there. Because this is a thing where, like, again, it does connect to the rest of this issue. But also just what a funky reveal.
00:29:02
Speaker
But you still, you would not know how it connects based on how this issue was put together. Okay. So meanwhile, at Rikers Island, Ben Riley starts thinking about all of the ways that returning to New York has ruined Peter and Mary Jane's lives and how he wasn't able to be there in the moment that Aunt May died. Despite
Character Reflections and Confrontations
00:29:23
Speaker
everything, he believes it's best that he's in prison since it was his fingerprints, as he says,
00:29:30
Speaker
that put Peter behind bars in the first place and Peter has a growing family. This is interesting to me because there have been hints at it being Ben Riley's fingerprints, but this is the first time Ben says it's his fingerprints that got Peter arrested for murder. And I don't know that it's ever been made clear before, you know? I...
00:30:00
Speaker
I don't think it has ever been because like, I also don't think it matches with what comes later. Gotcha. I just, I mean, we all know that like the crimes that Peter is being convicted of, like we witnessed them, like Kane is the one that we witnessed do those crimes. Right. So like we know that it's Kane's fingerprints, but I guess he doesn't know about Kane.
00:30:31
Speaker
that much which is kind of goofy at this point like you've dealt with them enough you think that they would have some conversation in passing maybe when they're switching shirts or whatever like oh by the way like i think it could be cane but i also think now that it's like if that's what ben is saying that he's like i guess they're my fingerprints like has just peter bullied him so much
00:30:56
Speaker
to make him just be like, yeah, I guess it's not Kane, the person that I witnessed or was soft, at least fighting the Grim Hunter. Like, you know he didn't kill him in the Grim Hunter. Psychologically, it does kind of make sense for Ben to feel this way because he is the first person to kind of look at, I am the problem. You know, time and again, that's how he reacts. Yeah, he does a lot of self-blame. He does it in the beginning, too. Mm-hmm.
00:31:24
Speaker
So I think he just read that one or two hate comments and he just forgot all the little positive parts about him. I mean, so this scene does nothing really other than to like reintroduce us to Ben Riley and to get a glimpse of how- It just kind of shows you where he's at at the moment. And like, I am still thinking the same things.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, I think it's still a nice moment to see how Ben feels about everything and kind of like get a an understanding of of Essentially, it's not just a self-sacrifice of I will take Peter's place It's also a punishment because he feels he deserves it and it's all like the other thing that I like about this is that is his attitude of like
00:32:19
Speaker
Peter and Mary Jane, not like, oh, I could have been better for her. Like, cause if it's that like, oh, I should have helped her more, then it's, then you get back to the regression of like taking his individuality back. And then he starts acting like he's just like a straight up clone again. He'd be like P3PO. It's the mentality that's behind that. So like, I still like that like he, even though
00:32:49
Speaker
is feeling a lot of guilt still sees himself as an individual. I feel like so far with a lot of the decision making, they're still taking good care of Ben Riley, I feel like. Yes. Everybody else though, I have no idea. It depends on the day.
00:33:10
Speaker
So we cut from Rikers Island all the way to Ridgefield Valley, New Jersey, which seems to be a fictional town. I mean, there's a Ridgefield, New Jersey, but the comic specifically states that this is Ridgefield Valley, which I think is just probably their way of being like, it's basically Ridgefield, but we're just gonna come up with a fictional place. None of that really matters though. The star of this scene,
00:33:36
Speaker
is the train that we see Spider-Man writing, which proves and provides our first explanation for how he gets around to locations that are further away than a quick web swing. We actually get to see him do a thing. Oh my God. Wait. Ding. Ding and celebration.
00:33:58
Speaker
He took a train to the Catskin. I was so worried. I was like, they walked for like three days. When I got to this page, I was like, holy shit, they explained it. They explained how he got to New Jersey. I love that he takes New Jersey transit.
00:34:24
Speaker
So Peter arrives in the town and decides to check out the house that was listed under the jackal's name. He quickly finds, however, that the roof is electrified. When he creates a web cushion on it, he was trying to catch himself from falling. And he notices quickly that the webbing is becoming electrified. So he lands in the backyard and finds a window into the garage. So he breaks the window open and sneaks in.
00:34:53
Speaker
And when he sneaks in, he discovers a sophisticated lab. And this is another of the like holy shit moments, just like the train. Because in this scene, Spidey mentions that the lab is way beyond the needs or the means of a university professor, which is one of the first times this comic has stopped to acknowledge how ludicrously expensive all of these fucking secret labs have to be.
00:35:21
Speaker
Ding and celebration. We're just going to get drunk in this episode. I'm just going to drink this one beer, I think. Because then I'll get sleepy. I actually never looked at the percentage on this. Stout's put me to sleep. That's insane. OK, this one's lower than one of the ones that I had was like nine percent. This one is five point five. So that's OK. It's like it's a normal beer. Mine's nine point five.
00:35:57
Speaker
So breaking into the kitchen, he then finds a regular suburban house, like just a normal house, like outside of the secret lab, it's just
00:36:08
Speaker
a house, which is pretty fun, pretty exciting because it shows that like, it's, it's like, you can have the weird sci-fi stuff, but then you, you still kind of gotta, you kind of have a place to like live. You also gotta have some equity in your life. Right. So Pete comes across a wedding photo of Miles and Gwen, uh, which is,
00:36:34
Speaker
a little interesting. Well, listen, I thought she was just a student. She was. Oh my God. Did he just like Photoshop wedding photos of them? Oh my God. That would be way creepier than what actually happened. Oh, that's so creepy. Oh my God. What if that... This is so... Ew. He's like the guy from Love Actually with like the videographer. Ew. Gross.
00:36:59
Speaker
So at that moment, his spider sense goes off and he spins around to find Gwen Stacy. And she's standing there with like a broom ready to hit him. And now up until this point in the comic, I really didn't have many actual issues with the story. I was actually enjoying the fun and engaging little mystery about like the train while the train about where the Jackal, like how he got this house, what's going on. You know, it seems like it was leading somewhere fun.
00:37:28
Speaker
It's interesting to see a villain's off-the-clock space. Yeah. This feels more like the start of a Batman story. Okay.
00:37:41
Speaker
doing a little bit of investigation into like, how do I find this person? Let me look at, you know, whereas like, you know, Spider-Man, it's usually, I found this person, let me find their secret lab, and then we fight. Where Batman is like, I want to find the person. And the motive. Right. So, that was kind of where I was with it. I really enjoyed it up until this point, but I got a little,
00:38:10
Speaker
upset seeing Gwen Stacy. Okay. And the reason why is because we've seen clone after clone after clone and we've seen Gwen Stacy clones in particular not too long ago. We saw one. Yeah. Like a couple of weeks ago.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah. So this feels like retreading the same beats from other comics and just like throwing, like you cannot surprise me with a Gwen Stacy reveal if we've already been introduced to Gwen Stacy clones. And if we've been introduced to Gwen Stacy clones relatively recently. Yeah. You can't like, you know where it's going. Like I could, I didn't,
00:38:58
Speaker
love P3PO because it was pretty drawn out. But it's like, yeah, of course he would have multiple of multiple Spider-Men, you know? Yeah. Because that's who he wants to bother. Or like, I don't know, clone, clone Peter's wife.
00:39:17
Speaker
and really like mind fuck him, you know? Which one's your wife, Fader? Huh? You've been so worried about her knowing who you are. Have you paid attention to your wife enough?
00:39:33
Speaker
In the 90s animated series, they cloned Mary Jane, but it was a little different. Mary Jane disappeared into a portal. She dies in the same way that Gwen Stacy dies, but she disappears into an interdimensional portal instead of falling to her death.
00:39:55
Speaker
They later introduce Mary Jane again, and then you find out that she was a clone, and then she dies, and then Peter goes in search of the real Mary Jane. That's actually how that cartoon ends, by the way. It ends with Peter going, like, on an interdimensional travel to find Mary Jane. That's how the whole cartoon ends. Oh, wow. So, I mean, there was something kinda like that that happens. Anyway.
00:40:22
Speaker
Peter quickly pulls off his mask to show his face to Gwen, but she gets visibly upset and tries to hit him with the broom before Miles Warren, in human form, zaps him with a taser. So again, this is not the jackal, this is Professor Miles Warren. Oh. Right. Wait, that's really confusing, because I thought he was just genetically mutated. Right. To be funky looking.
00:40:47
Speaker
This is where we're getting into some a little bit more of the mystery and that I kind of like. So Miles Warren shows up and he zaps Peter with a taser. And then Gwen quickly runs over to him and claims that Peter is the man who has been haunting her in her nightmares.
00:41:06
Speaker
We then cut away from this scene all the way back to New York City, where Mary Jane and the Black Cat are discussing recent events, which includes Felicia learning that Peter in prison, it was actually Ben Riley. So it kind of like, she comes through, she was like, oh, that's why he was being so weird. Yes, she realized that, like the last issue.
00:41:29
Speaker
Right. She gets confirmation in this, in this conversation with Mary Jane. Okay. That like, yeah, it is a different person. Like she kind of had that like thought, but this is where she, she really solidifies that. It's a cute scene. Um, like I, I, I like it. Do they tell you like what the bad news was?
00:41:51
Speaker
Yes, so Mary Jane reveals that there might be some complications with her baby relating to Peter's irradiated blood. It's one of those, there are indicators that there will be a problem. Not that there is a problem, but that there might be a problem.
00:42:09
Speaker
Gotcha. I thought it was going to be bigger, but... Yeah. So Felicia... Well, Felicia tells Mary Jane, like, you really don't know this doctor. You probably shouldn't trust him. But Mary Jane says, like, you know, who else does she kind of trust? Which, I mean, like, the Fantastic Four. Like, you know, there's like... Do they know them? Yeah.
00:42:32
Speaker
I think at this time, Peter had had already like Peter's friends with Johnny Storm. Mr. Fantastic, the doctor though. Yeah, but I mean, he's got an in with them, you know? And I think I'm pretty sure at this point, he would have been on a substitute Fantastic Four team. There was a Fantastic Four that was like,
00:42:58
Speaker
uh, Wolverine, Spider-Man and like the Hulk and or whatever, you know, uh, dude. Yeah. Uh, so I mean, there are, but for the, for the context of this issue. Okay. Yeah. So who else are you going to trust? All right. I get it. Um,
00:43:16
Speaker
And Felicia then realizes that Mary Jane needs Peter just to be with her. So she agrees to try to go find him and bring him back so that they can talk about how stressful everything has become. It's a nice scene, showcases these two women bonding over the insane lives that they have. I'm never going to hate on having Mary Jane interact with more than just Peter.
00:43:46
Speaker
Yeah. I'll make some friends. I like bad. I was so happy when she, remember, man, remember when she went to go visit her family? Yeah. Oh, those were the days. And now she's like pregnant and alone all the time. That's rough. That is a rough 180.
00:44:10
Speaker
I am going to hit the button just because Felicia does this whole thing about how she's going to go hunt down Peter. And again, I have read this issue and the storyline following it. That's it that she's gone. Oh, dang. It's, it's such a weird thing to include her and then cut her out. She comes back. Yeah, I, I genuinely, I really like Felicia. I think she's a really fun character.
00:44:40
Speaker
She seems cool. I like cats, so. Back in New Jersey, Peter wakes up, basically like on the kitchen floor, and he learns that Miles and Gwen have fled their home. And they've sped away in a car while Warren is assuring Gwen that he didn't kill Peter, he was just trying to protect her. Like he's really trying to calm her down and be like, I promise, like I'm not a murderer. He does, however, have a gun with him.
00:45:09
Speaker
But he's just telling you, it's all good. I'm just trying to protect you. Yeah. Professor Warren then flashes back to when his first wife left him because he basically was ignoring her. He kind of was just doing work and completely let her
00:45:33
Speaker
run everything in the house and was like, I'm not giving you the time of day because my work is too important. Yeah. So she leaves and she takes their kids, their two children with her. And you find out later that they died in a car accident. Oh, wow. That really just like, they were like, no divorce. Yeah, no, they're not in these books. All gone. So he lives like a very sad, lonely life.
00:46:03
Speaker
until he meets Gwen when he is her professor at Empire State University. So it kind of gets a little more. So that's like even before, like at first I was like, when you said he was ignoring his wife, I was like, is it because he's obsessed with a student? Like in a nineties thriller sense or is it? Okay. Interesting.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah. I think, you know, that gives him some context as to like his psychology. I mean, it doesn't make him any nicer of a person. That actually makes it more interesting than the whole like Michael Douglas thriller thing of it. Because it's like he lost people so tragically. And now when he meets like Gwen Stacy, it's almost like he's over correcting his past.
00:46:56
Speaker
to like the obsessive level. Interest, oh wow, hey, good job, spider writers. That's cool, okay. I don't wanna get too far into how I feel about this comic, but there are a lot of things I really like. It's just, there's some other stuff we gotta get through. Yeah, I gotcha.
00:47:18
Speaker
So back in the house, Spidey searches for any clues as to what's going on and he finds documents proving that Miles knows he is a clone and that the Gwen Stacy he is married to is not only a clone, but a clone that had showed up years earlier during the evolutionary war storyline. I'm going to go ahead and hit the ding and then I will explain what it is we're talking about. Okay.
00:47:49
Speaker
In the evolutionary war storyline, which happened like... Is it directly before the Clone Saga or is it like a couple runs before? It was like four or five years before this. Okay. So it was a while ago. It was the 80s. It was the 80s. And in that comic... Oh boy. The High Evolutionary. Do you know who the High Evolutionary is?
00:48:18
Speaker
Derek, do you think I know who the high of a... I don't. Well, he's going to be in Guardians of the Galaxy 3, or at least a version of him will be in Guardians of the Galaxy 3. So you'll see a little bit of him in a movie soon. If I watch it. Yeah, I mean, it looks good. I like James Gunn. Okay, I think... Okay, we're gonna take a moment to talk about this. Because now I'm feeling ballsy. It looks like...
00:48:48
Speaker
it all looks the same. Yeah, I would say that movie is the only one that I'm kind of like, all right, I'm interested. Man, I don't get it though. Like Max said the same thing. Everyone I talked to about like that trailer, they're like, I'm interested. I'm like,
00:49:09
Speaker
Why though? Cause I can't, I don't get it. I don't get it. I watched the first one. First one was fine. I tried watching the second one. I gave up halfway through. Oh, I really liked the second one. I wanted to cause I love Kurt Russell, but man, I couldn't get into it. And now like the max has come to listen to me. Well, I just, I heard you ranting and I used to do stuff.
00:49:38
Speaker
He's deduced that it's about Guardians of the Galaxy. But the only thing of note, Max is walking away because he didn't care anymore. The only thing of memory. I'm on the podcast now. What's going on? Max is on the podcast. Max is on the podcast. Max is on the podcast. Max is on the podcast.
00:50:11
Speaker
The only memorable part of that is there's a point for like two seconds where they're all in spacesuits and they just look like the fucking classic astro Lego astronaut minifigs
00:50:24
Speaker
That's all. That is the only thing of note to me. Everybody else just looks like, oh, we got a job to do there. Are you like the Suicide Squad? I really like the Suicide Squad. Yeah. I've seen it. I have no desire to see it again. Sure.
00:50:40
Speaker
I think maybe eight years from now when we're doing like a summer block, summer movie night and we're outside, we're all like, what do we watch? Yeah, we can watch a superhero movie. That's fine. That is when I feel like eight years down the line, I will rewatch a superhero movie for right now, unless it's back then. No, I get that. Someone who- Or like Tobey Maguire. I'll rewatch him maybe every like
00:51:07
Speaker
four years. As someone who a year ago was like superhero fatigue isn't real. The Batman was cool. Spiderman was cool. I guess this was like a year and a half.
00:51:21
Speaker
Uh, no way. No way. Yeah. And then you liked it a lot more than I did. I liked it. And I was like, ah, totally move. Why are the handsome lad? But then I, then I watched Dr. Strange and I was like, Oh, that didn't live up to expectations. I liked the skeletons. They're really cool. And then I watched expectations and then I haven't seen Ant-Man.
00:51:47
Speaker
The Marvel shows have been kind of hit or miss for me. Yo, the Ant-Man. Oh, what's that? Madoc? Is that? Modoc. Modoc. Modoc. Yeah. Fucking George Lopez, Sharkboy and Lava Girl. I am like, OK, so. George Lopez in Sharkboy and Lava Girl looked 10 times better than that Modoc thing. That thing, I can't even call it a person. That thing looked like there was a face
00:52:18
Speaker
app when like iPhones and iPod Touches had just come out where it was like you just took a selfie and then you could just stretch your face and trampoline. Yeah, Mario 64 did that like 20 years ago. Cool, but I'm not ancient like you and Derek. I'll leave on that one. I'm trying to break my back. I love you, best friend. He's leaving now.
00:52:46
Speaker
Oh, I was going to, I was going to include him in this next part. Oh wait, Max, you're getting included. Cause I have a question. I don't know if there's a way for you, uh, for him to hear me care. I'll take just, I'll share headphones. Sure. I'll, I'll lean in close to you. Hello.
00:53:03
Speaker
So my question here, well, one, I'm gonna point out a little bit when it comes to the modoc thing. It is played as a goof in the movie, modoc entirely as a character, as a goof. And I don't know if you know this, but they also fired the head of their visual effects department. Yes, because the working conditions at Marvel, and it seems like maybe Disney in general, for special effects people, has not been the best.
00:53:33
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like that's been the thing for a while. Moving on from Ant-Man, which is like, I don't know, it feels like a Rick and Morty movie with Ant-Man pasted onto it. Interesting.
00:53:47
Speaker
I just wasn't smart enough to understand the movie then. That's what it was. Well, the guy the guy that wrote it wrote for Rick and Morty. That was it is. And to me, it was very clear that he wrote for Rick and Morty down to like like silly goofy characters that are silly and goofy because they're like nonsensical. And then they are like the the people that you root for. You know what I mean? Like Mr. Poopy Butthole.
00:54:16
Speaker
It's like that, exactly. To be fair, that my favorite character in the movie was the like the Mr. Poopy butthole character in the movie. Austin's too. And we both left the movie going like, that was fine. I didn't care. Now I have a question based on Guardians of the Galaxy 3. Max, do you know who the high evolutionary is?
00:54:45
Speaker
All I know, and I don't know if it's a spoiler, it's kind of in the trailer. I know he does weird science experiments on creatures. I have gathered from the trailer that he is probably the guy who made Rocket. There was an otter at one point in the trailer too. I assume he made the otter as well. Don't know if he made
00:55:13
Speaker
It's not crypto, the space dog. I'm, I'm, I'm blending two characters. Cosmo. Cosmo. Crypto is Superman's dog. I do know that. Yeah. Good show as a, as a kid. Well, it's also because, um, so do you know who, uh, do you know star kid productions? Uh, Derek, you gotta watch holy musical Batman. I don't, I don't talk about crypto, but no, I really do not know much about the, the high up.
00:55:42
Speaker
So the reason I was curious about it was because Corinne was saying, what is standing out that are getting people excited? For me, I know the high evolutionary and I was like, this seems like it would be an interesting story. Now for me, it's mostly the fact that, again, I'm definitely experiencing a little bit of that superhero fatigue, but I like James Gunn as a director. So is that what's getting you excited about it?
00:56:09
Speaker
I think that is definitely part of it. I think that the Guardians of the Galaxy franchise, if you want to call it that, I think has probably had the most consistent showings in my mind. I really like the Captain America trilogy. I know you don't. You have opinions about black SUVs driving in a line. We don't got to get into it. Excuse me. I am the co-host of this podcast. We can get into it because, again,
00:56:38
Speaker
I listen to the podcast and I know you've gotten into it before. Or if I kick Derek off and just have a fight on the internet.
00:56:48
Speaker
Anyway, I like his visual style. I feel like he puts a lot of care into the movies that he makes. I feel like those characters are the most consistent showing and through line. You didn't watch the holiday special, but I thought the holiday special was delightful.
00:57:10
Speaker
There was like, there was some fun musical numbers in there. I saw the part where like, Kevin Bacon did a song. I saw the part where like Mantis is like, I'm your sister. Yeah. And then he's like, oh, that's a great gift. I thought that was cute. Yeah. I'm just saying like, to me, like, and I know everyone's over Chris Bratt at this point, but like, I like him in that role. I think Dave Bautista is having fun. So it's mostly like, it's the ethos.
00:57:39
Speaker
the credibility that Guardians of the Galaxy has built. Yes, and I think that franchise is fine. And my final thought on this, and then I will let you guys get back to the podcast that you worked very hard on, is that much like how we were talking about before with Rocky, where it doesn't matter what's going on in the movie, when that theme song starts playing, I'm like, let's go, Rocko, you know? So it
00:58:06
Speaker
So when James Gunn does his stupid little record needle drops, it doesn't matter. I'm like, I pretty much always start losing it at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 when they have the funeral for Yondu, and they're playing the blue guy, and they're playing fucking Cat Stevens. Oh, is Yondu the one that has the blue horse? Yeah, I think they play Cat Stevens at the end of that. But like, it's sad.
00:58:32
Speaker
Right. And I feel more sad because of the music and I know James Gunn does it in every movie that he's made in the last like 10, 15 years. It doesn't matter. It gets me. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to it. I get the feeling some of those characters are going to die. I'm probably, I might cry a little. Okay. Yeah. That's okay. I still love you. I love you too. Best friend. Best friend.
00:58:58
Speaker
I'll stop interrupting. I feel like I'm feeling gradually more and more every week here. What are you talking about? Every time I'll just pop my head in. So the high evolutionary is basically Dr. Moreau. He like makes crazy animal stuff. Yes. How does that connect to when Stacy? OK.
00:59:27
Speaker
Hold on. I'm bringing it back, Zart. The High Evolutionary is essentially a mad scientist that is Dr. Moreau-ish. He mixes and matches stuff. He's crazy, and he also doesn't like... He thinks that humanity is not moving fast enough. So he's going to push everything. He pushes the boundaries of everything. Does not give a shit where it's going. Now, in that old comic book,
00:59:56
Speaker
the high evolutionary comes across this Gwen Stacy clone. And he claims that she is actually a woman named Joyce Delaney who was transformed using a genetic virus to look like Gwen Stacy. Right. Okay. I remember hearing about the virus thing before.
01:00:21
Speaker
Right. And it's a weird thing because it contradicts everything in the clone saga. Ding. You essentially, you cannot have that explanation and also have the clone saga. Yeah, because now you've validated what happened before this whole run. Right. Which is totally different from this whole run. Right.
01:00:51
Speaker
Now, in that old comic book, a woman named Daydreamer, who is essentially a god, it's way too complicated to get into. Sure. She uses her powers to remove any of the memories of Gwen Stacy from this clone's mind, which allows her to live as Joyce Delaney again. So basically, it's like, I am freeing you of Gwen Stacy. You are now Joyce Delaney. Just with Gwen Stacy's face.
01:01:21
Speaker
Right. Okay. Now that was the last we saw of that woman before this issue where she shows up living as Gwen Warren. Okay. So, or Gwen Miles. I wrote Gwen Miles, but that doesn't make sense. Miles Warren. Gwen Warren.
01:01:47
Speaker
Yeah, let me, Miles Warren-Clone, I think, cause I'm just curious if they changed their name. Cause then that would also take away something that I complain about later. Give me just a second. I just want to make sure. Yeah, that's fine. I'm not being pedantic about something that's dumb. Okay. No, I was right. Uh, I'd, so she, she shows up living as a Gwen Miles and, and,
Gwen Stacy Clone Revelation
01:02:13
Speaker
So one of the things that I was gonna complain about really is, and I'm still gonna count it when we get to it, but the names are dumb. If you're hiding, you need to change your names. And it would be as if I decided to go as Chase Derek instead of Derek Chase. You're not hiding.
01:02:43
Speaker
It doesn't make sense. Now, what I think is even more interesting, so keep in mind, she is freed, she's living as Joyce Delaney, and then you'd never see her again, and then she shows up here married to Miles Warren. Yeah. What is even more interesting in all of that is that this comic
01:03:07
Speaker
acknowledges that Gwen can't be that different person for any of this to make sense. So... She has to be Gwen, she can't be Joyce. Right. So you just have to assume that all of that was a lie, but they do it with like a fuckload of mistakes. So get ready for some dings. Okay.
01:03:27
Speaker
Daydreamer is misidentified as Dreamweaver. Spider-Man claims he knows Gwen was once using the name Joyce Delaney, even though it is a major part of that previous story that he never learned her real name. That's a thing that he says at the end of that comic book. He wanted to know who this person was and all he knew was that she was Gwen Stacy.
01:03:49
Speaker
And, as I pointed out just a little bit ago, if they both know that they are clones, or, well, I guess she doesn't, really, because we do find out a little bit more about her. But if he knows that he is a clone... If Miles knows. Yes. Okay. Why the fuck would he still be living under a name at least somewhat similar? And why would she be living as Gwen, especially since the last time we saw her, she was going by Joyce.
01:04:17
Speaker
So you see, this gets very confusing. I guess half a ding for that would be taken back if we figure out whether or not the whole Miles Warren jackal together is public knowledge or not. Yes. And also I will say, I'll take a little bit of, of, of the Dean back, I guess there is some explanation about why she's going as Gwen. Um, but
01:04:47
Speaker
It's complicated because none of it really makes that much sense. We'll get into it. Okay. So we then learn that Spider-Man had placed a tracer on their car before he had entered the house, even though we don't really see that, that's fine. And he decides to go after them. The interesting thing about this is that Peter realizes that they didn't break any laws or do anything wrong. Like he just decides, I can't let them get away.
01:05:16
Speaker
Which, I mean, I guess him acknowledging the fact that he's going after them for no reason. Yeah, is he going out with the intent of getting more information or is he trying to pick a fight? Because, I mean, he very clearly was trying to find Miles Warren.
01:05:36
Speaker
Right, and I think at this point the implication is that he's going for more information. But it's weird because I was like, why does he give a shit? If he knows they're clones and they're just living a regular suburban life... Oh yeah, wait, if you now know that you're... Oh no, but does he know that they're clones? He knows, because he finds the documentation that says who they are, right? It's like in a safe or something.
01:06:05
Speaker
At the house. Yeah. But when slash. Joyce slash non Joyce is not privy to that information, but the miles one is because it's like his safe or something. Right. Oh, okay. We got now we got at the same time as all of this is happening, we learn that a green goblin has just taken a glider out into New Jersey to look for action.
01:06:35
Speaker
I'm gonna hit a ding, because we are given no context as to who this goblin is, where they came from, or anything. The other characters that we know who have been goblins, specifically green goblins, which are Norman and Harry Osborn, have both died. So there's just this random other goblin that shows up, and that's not crazy. And it's not the hobgoblin?
01:07:03
Speaker
Nope, it's the Green Goblin. It is specifically the Green Goblin. And he's got a slightly different costume, but it's pretty clearly the Green Goblin. It's very clearly not the Hop Goblin. Right. And I would say it doesn't matter so much because it is like an introduction of this new goblin so that you don't have to explain all of that. But
01:07:26
Speaker
I feel like we have enough on our plate, though, don't we? We have a lot going on. And we don't know why is this goblin showing up in New Jersey and not New York? Because he sees Spider-Man and decides to follow him, so he has to be in New Jersey. It's not like I'm going to continue to follow him from the first train station.
01:07:56
Speaker
It's, it is, it is a weird thing to like have, I'm fine with the goblin showing up, that's fine. Yeah, it's just, why is he there though?
01:08:09
Speaker
Why is he specifically at this location is what bothers me. Introducing a mysterious new goblin, sure, you go for it, that's fine. Putting him in this exact spot is very convenient to the story. I feel like they should have put him maybe as a little background Easter egg in the beginning when he's doing the reporter investigation stuff.
01:08:38
Speaker
the Daily People stuff. Like, you know, maybe he's like gliding out the window as Spider-Man's jumping out and then like, you see him a little closer behind the train and then, oh my gosh, he's there. And he's like, what's Spider-Man doing? I'm not a writer though. It's also like, so this is going to end up happening. There's going to be an event
01:09:05
Speaker
on a bridge. Oh my God. Wait a minute. We haven't even hit like the second story. We're, we're almost there. Okay. The second story is like a paragraph long. I can sum it up very quickly. Okay. So there is going to be an event that happens in a minute on a bridge. And the thing is you could literally just have the goblin show up there. Yeah. Okay.
01:09:31
Speaker
Having him follow Spider-Man is the thing that I have a problem with. It makes no sense. Yeah. Unless we're about to somehow learn that, like, Miles and this green goblin are neighbors. Oh, that would be interesting. And also a bit convenient. They have two supervillains living right next to each other. But they don't know. Well, technically... Oh, that would be a fun sitcom. Oh, that would be great. I hope Willem defoes in that sitcom.
01:09:57
Speaker
So Professor Warren makes his way to what is clearly drawn to be the Brooklyn Bridge, but it's labeled the George Washington Bridge. And now that makes some sense. I'll explain why that makes sense later. It's kind of funny. But we see Spider-Man behind him and Professor Warren sees him and that causes him to freak out and it causes a big accident.
01:10:25
Speaker
Spidey swings in to help the other drivers on the bridge, but Warren crashes, and the green goblin then swoops in to pull Gwen from the car. The goblin takes her to the top of the bridge, which is very reminiscent of how Gwen died originally, and promises, your husband is next. Seeing this happen, Spidey leaps to try to save Gwen, and Warren pulls out the gun from earlier and starts shooting at both of them. Oh, okay.
01:10:54
Speaker
You have Gwen Stacy on top of the bridge, which again is very similar to her, like how she died. Yes. You have the Green Goblin floating around, Spider-Man trying to stop him, and then Warren just fucking firing bullets into the air. Okay. Trying to dodge all these bullets, Gwen ends up falling off of the bridge because of, that's what, if you're a Gwen Stacy, that's what you do. Unfortunately.
01:11:20
Speaker
So Spider-Man is able to swing down and save her at this time, which is cute. But unfortunately, Warren's car plummets from the bridge and lands in the water, so Peter has to jump down to save him. Okay. When he hits the water, he finds him, he pulls him back up, but he finds that Warren has already started degenerating. He's just coming up as goop as he's pulling him out of the water. Oh.
01:11:48
Speaker
Which is kind of sad. So that's kind of the end of this conflict. There is no follow up to what happens after this. You're led to assume the Green Goblin just fucking leaves because the next time you see him, he's returning to his home.
01:12:06
Speaker
and he takes off his mask, you don't see his face, but you see what he's thinking. And he just keeps thinking about how he was actually trying to save Gwen and Warren. When he said, your husband is next, he was saying, I'm going to pull him out and save him. But he was obviously not very good at that. He failed miserably. So this is a heroic Green Goblin that we have.
01:12:34
Speaker
And it's, it's underlined in probably the most like crazy specific way for a Spider-Man comic where he starts thinking about there are two things he needs to learn more about power and responsibility. Oh, so it's probably going to be another Peter Parker.
01:12:56
Speaker
I don't wanna build this mystery up too much. Don't get too hung up on who he is because if you don't have a reveal of who he is in your story, I'll just tell you who he is. It's Uncle Ben. That would be interesting. Yo, that would be wild. So we then cut back to Gwen at the bridge, the maybe George Washington, maybe Brooklyn bridge.
01:13:24
Speaker
And she's looking down into the water and all of her memories come out. She realizes that she is not Joyce, she is not Gwen Stacy. She's a clone and now she's alone. She is just alone. She's a clone of Gwen Stacy now alone. Right. Okay.
01:13:47
Speaker
So that's how that story ends. You get like, there is no follow-up to Felicia going after Peter. There's no follow-up to that mystery person in the Daily Bugle. There is no follow-up to why the fuck, I mean, you don't really need the Green Goblin's follow-up, that's kind of- But there's no even real follow-up, like just check in on Mary Jane. And I feel like with the last, like, I don't know, the last storyline- I mean, there's the tease of there is something wrong, but that's it.
01:14:16
Speaker
Yeah. I just, I don't know. I guess I expected more, but they really like dropped her. Oh, and just wait. Cause the next story, a story arc that we're going to go over it, it is a, we do not get much more of a followup. Great. Um, so that is this story and the ending really felt rushed. It like Warren hits the water. Peter grabs him. He's goop.
Story Conclusion and Backup Narrative
01:14:44
Speaker
cut immediately to the goblin already home and then cut immediately back to Gwen Stacy. Yeah. And yet we had all this insane like long winded 20 bajillion other things happen. That was, that felt weirdly paced.
01:15:00
Speaker
It was very oddly, it might've been good as like a two-part story because like the first part of this, even though it's wonky and there's a lot to nitpick, I liked the pacing and sort of the fun mystery nature of it. And then it just went off the fucking walls. But I think the story itself is fine. It's just weirdly put together.
01:15:27
Speaker
I think I liked parts more than I liked the whole. Is that sense? Oh, absolutely. Now this brings us all the way up to the backup story, which is titled Shining Armor. And it is written by Terry Cavanaugh and Mike Lackey, I think, penciled by Todd Smith, inked by Jimmy Palmiotti, colored by Nell Yumtove and lettered by Loretta Kroll. And this'll be a very quick backup story.
01:15:57
Speaker
Okay We start the backup story in the past with the Gwen clone distraught and pouring through a book titled webs Spider-Man in action, which has a bunch of pictures of spider-man taken by Peter Parker. It's like just a photography book. Okay, and This is supposed to take place Pretty soon after the evolutionary war story arc. So like two or three years in the in the comic book world, right? Yeah
01:16:27
Speaker
And she is in the Stacy's family cabin in upstate New York. She's been hidden away when she couldn't really figure out who she was. Her memories have been just jumbled ever since the incident with the daydreamer. And when she was going through this book, it brought back all of the Gwen memories to the forefront of her mind. And it just short-circuited her brain. She was crying, just incredibly distraught.
01:16:58
Speaker
And just then the Miles Warren clone enters and finds her on the floor. And through narrative captions, we learned that the original Miles Warren had planned for his clone and Gwen's clone to live the life that he and the real Gwen Stacy could. He was like, I'm going to give them the life that I can't have.
01:17:19
Speaker
Right. Which is kind of sweet in a weird, twisted way. Yeah. Yeah. And Warren picks Gwen up and he takes her to bed before tossing the book that she was looking through, tosses it into the fireplace and then he like nurses her back to health. And over the following few days, she starts to get better. Her memories start to go away. She starts to fall in love with Miles and then the two quickly get married. Oh.
01:17:49
Speaker
as the two leave the church, the priest, the witness, and the photographer all degenerate behind them, proving that they're all part of the Jackal's plan, which makes no sense.
01:18:06
Speaker
There is no way to plan for Daydreamer messing up Gwen Stacy's or the clone of Gwen Stacy's memories. There is no way to plan for the two of them randomly running into each other. This is like the thing that they keep coming back to in the clone saga.
01:18:27
Speaker
version of cloning is that he like programs them to do things at certain times, which is insane. That then becomes almost like a cyborg situation, I feel like. Cause like you'd have to be some form of like, like some level of robot to have a programmed timer in you. Yeah. So I'm going to, uh,
01:18:52
Speaker
ding that because like, I mean, what the fuck? There's no way for this to work without the jackal being like omnipotent. It also like, it turns the whole like, I just, you know, want it. I don't know. It turns something that could have been like sweet into something just like, oh, this is just mad gross, you know?
01:19:18
Speaker
Yes, I think with the way that the story was written, I think the idea was, oh, we have to tell the story of how this Gwen Stacy and this Miles Warren got together. And that could have been a fine story on its own. But the writer got ahead of himself and decided that there to be this hook
01:19:45
Speaker
like twist ending in order for it to like catch the reader's attention. And to me, it makes the whole thing fall apart. Like if it was separate, if it didn't have to be tied to this, like whole saga, I think that whole, the general concept of basically a like woman in crisis being tricked into a relationship that she
01:20:13
Speaker
realize is not it. That in and of itself, great thriller. And maybe then it's her getting out of it or being liberated of it. That's what I would want from a story like that, a thriller like that. And maybe she uncovers the information that Miles has been keeping from her.
01:20:42
Speaker
but there's no way, they're not gonna touch more on it. Like, it's very clearly a background story and they've already killed off Miles. And also it just makes it even more confusing. Like, okay, so then why would the Green Goblin character really want to save them? Maybe because he doesn't know. I can't answer it. The Green Goblin, it's because he has no idea who they are. He wants to be a hero.
01:21:12
Speaker
He just thinks that these people were running away from a person in a mask, doesn't understand who Spider-Man is, and then...
01:21:20
Speaker
Well, I think it was, he tried to save them from, cause they crashed and he was trying to save them after the crash. And I think that kind of works, but it's very convenient for the story, but I can overlook that. Following Spider-Man before. That's the, cut that part out and it works. It's convenient. Like if they're trying to make it like, yeah, oh, this is,
01:21:51
Speaker
I don't know if it's like just because I'm I had one beer like I'm just sleepy I know that I'm that it hasn't made me stupid you know like yeah no I the there's so much keep keep in mind this was one issue that we went over and I had to stop I don't know how many times to explain not like this like they may question it
01:22:18
Speaker
Yeah, well, what was going on? Why make these decisions? But then also to go back and be like, okay, this is what they are referencing. We have to give you history, and I understand why. Yeah, this is like, because for me, I wouldn't have noticed anything. But because I'm learning this with you, I now have to share this pain.
01:22:46
Speaker
It is, so they do, they stop in the comic book to give you some of this backstory, but they get the backstory wrong when they do it. Oh my God, they're trying to gaslight us. It is, like getting a daydreamer's name wrong is like, that's fine, I guess. That is whatever, like she is a very minor character. Right.
01:23:13
Speaker
And having the introduction of this clone again and trying to smooth away some of that stuff, that's fine, I guess, because you do have to address it. You can't just have the storyline existing that contradicts the story that you're telling. Unless you just make it clear that the story you're writing is not canonical.
01:23:41
Speaker
Or just, yeah, like somehow find a way to write that other one out of con... The way that Marvel tends to handle these things is that unless it is specifically stated to not be in continuity, everything is. And then you have to go and retcon it in some way. Yeah, and I don't like that. I don't... I think I would rather... You like the Grant Morrison sort of approach.
01:24:04
Speaker
I do. Everything is and everything's not. But I also like that it's very clear when it's like, okay, what I'm reading right now, I just have to focus on what I'm reading. And then if I wish to continue in this universe, there will be a title similar to that that will hint at these things are canonical.
01:24:30
Speaker
And I can go to and I can read another, I don't know, Green Lantern or whatever. And that will be different. And I don't have to worry about what I just read. I'll come back to it differently because it's a different thing, a different story.
01:24:48
Speaker
and I can accept that. But when you make me constantly worry if it's canonical is what pisses me off sometimes. The thing with Marvel is
01:25:04
Speaker
And I think that's why I don't like the movies either. If we are somehow going to add the rant of my Guardians of the Galaxy. I'll probably leave part of that in, yeah. Or we could just make it separate, whatever you want. But it is all so...
01:25:24
Speaker
aesthetically same-sy, and that's its own thing. But it's also just like you feel like you have to see all of it. You have to put in all of the hours to understand the little bits and boops and bops. And sometimes I just want to sit and watch a movie and then never think about it again.
01:25:47
Speaker
Like, I want a one and done. I don't need a franchise. And if it's going to be like, just make it a little one, you know, maybe like a little. Actually, that brings something up. I don't need the whole like.
Standalone vs Interconnected Comics
01:26:03
Speaker
I don't need the whole universe in my face. I just want a good story, you know. Yeah. I mean, if you.
01:26:10
Speaker
That's one of the things that I like about some of the standout stories that you get from Marvel or DC are because they are generally standalone or as close to stand... You can read it and there might be references to other things, but it doesn't matter. You're good. And Marvel can sometimes do that, but because they have
01:26:41
Speaker
way more, well, I would say DC has a very complicated history, but part of their complicated history is that they mostly just kind of go, fuck it, we're back to normal, and we'll figure out how we did that later. Or what matters and what doesn't. With Marvel, it all matters, it all happens.
01:27:02
Speaker
And I think that is an interesting way of approaching it, but it does, if you sit down and you made a list of like the most important or interesting runs in Marvel and in DC, you could almost always pick up a DC comic book and just go with it. Yep. And if you pick up like the important runs from Marvel or the fun runs from Marvel,
01:27:32
Speaker
You might be able to do that, but you will also be confused because there are plenty of callbacks. Like I love. So one of the first thing, one of the first comics I read even before saga was, uh, Scarlet Witch and Vision. It was 12 issues. Yeah. I got it all in one bundle and that was like a finite thing. And I was like, this is good. It's a carrot. Like I've always wanted to read about the Scarlet Witch because I was like, it's a cool female character.
01:28:02
Speaker
Love that. And again, it was one through 12. It had a beginning and an end. And I was like, this is perfect because getting into comics can be very overwhelming and a lot and intimidating. But even in that, a one through 12, there were callbacks and from blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I don't know what these books are.
01:28:31
Speaker
and I didn't know any of the shit. I don't know, I just work here. I am a continuity fan. I love the complicated nature of it all, but it does weigh things down. I like it when I'm prepared for it. And I like it to a certain degree. I do think at some level it's cool that it's like, oh,
01:29:00
Speaker
You know what Captain America is doing while Iron Man's doing this or whatever. Or you know, you know, like that's cool. And it does make it like, yeah, this is like a world here. But it's like the forcing me to buy it and read it. I feel like I can just see that it's like,
01:29:29
Speaker
I very quickly start to feel less like, what a cool world building to like, you just want me to buy things. We are in the middle of the worst era of that. I mean, just the clone saga in general, it is an ongoing storyline that is being published across four different Spider-Man titles. Yes.
01:29:56
Speaker
that you have to buy every single one of them to understand. And every so often there is a fifth one that sometimes matters. It is it is bonkers. I do think that like this is the worst era for what you don't like. And for what I don't favor for sure.
01:30:19
Speaker
But it is a thing. I am a huge fan of The Immortal Hulk and it came out, it was like a 50 issue series, wonderfully done. Yeah.
01:30:36
Speaker
early on it was creepy it's a horror book starring the Hulk yeah and the horror is that he can't die it is really good and early on you just focus on little bits of things about the Hulk and then occasionally they'll bring in something that's from like the
01:30:57
Speaker
50 odd years of that character and they kind of recontextualize it, but they usually do a really good job of explaining what that is and giving you the history so that you don't have to look that up. Where it got hard to read for me, I mean, I still really enjoyed it, but where it got hard to read for me is where it started relying a lot on the history of that character.
01:31:22
Speaker
And I happened to know some of this stuff and it, but it still was kind of like, okay, I, I don't need, like, I don't want to have to like refresh my, my memory on Joe fix it or, uh, or, or the, uh, how, what's his name? They're like the Sasquatch or anything like that. Like that's.
01:31:48
Speaker
I don't just give me the info I need, and we're good. And they do do that. I mean, you can read it that way, but it did start to weigh the story down a bit. Right. And it's not gonna get any better. Yeah. So I'm gonna do what's good, what worked for this. I really liked the Green Goblin design.
01:32:18
Speaker
It's funky, it's new, it's very 90s, but it's 90s in a fun way that I really like. He's not wearing... Do you know the classic goblin costume? The classic one is green and purple. Yeah, he's got a purple outfit on. Yeah.
01:32:34
Speaker
And in this he's got like a purple tattered sort of like cape, but he's got a muscular green goblin chest. It is so wildly 90s, but it's fun. I like it. I think Peter feels like Peter in this story and Ben feels like Ben. The characters that are in this are good.
01:33:00
Speaker
Yeah, I like it that we don't, I like that we get a break from Peter Parker clones. I do too. I feel like in all of our hearts, we know how a Peter Parker should behave. And we like Ben Riley.
01:33:22
Speaker
Ben Riley. You're done after that. No notes. Like no notes because he's just doing his thing and I'm happy about it.
Character Portrayals and Critiques
01:33:31
Speaker
And Peter Parker, I like that he has like, you know, gotten out of the bird poison phase and he seems back to like his general self looking out for his wife.
01:33:43
Speaker
I mean, he does kind of ignore his life, but like, like he jumps into the water to save, uh, what is essentially like his arch nemesis at this point. Like he wants to save people. He wants to help people and he's trying. He's just trying.
01:34:05
Speaker
So that's good. And in terms of the rest of the stuff in the story, I still really like Mary Jane. I like seeing her with Felicia. She's in one page or maybe two of this entire comic book. I wanted more of them. The two of them talking. At least more of Mary Jane. There is a scene where Felicia puts her hand on Mary Jane's belly as she's talking to her. And I think that is adorable. And I wanted more of that.
01:34:34
Speaker
The other weird thing now that I'm thinking about it is I feel like we've totally shifted again. Because at least for the past while, there's always at least been Cain sitting and watching. Yeah. There's no Cain.
01:34:52
Speaker
That's true. And maybe that adds to something that I liked about this because as much as this was like an infuriating read toward the end, it was only really infuriating when I stopped to question things. The actual story itself is fine. Like, it's okay, you know? Yeah. What didn't really work in this was, well, one, the entire backup story. I think
01:35:21
Speaker
Stop it, they got married, you're done, you're fine. I liked it separate to this. Yeah. I would have wanted it as its own thing with more detail. I think I want that background story to be a different thing. I agree. Because I like the concept of it. Again, I like it as a thriller. But that's not what it is, so.
01:35:52
Speaker
Well, the way that I kept looking at it was like if we had that character focused origin story for Ben Riley in the backup stories, that's what this could have been. And I loved, that was my favorite thing that we've read. And so this feels like a half thought through story that should have been a short story and like a backup of creepy or like some sort of a horror comic book.
01:36:24
Speaker
And the rest of the story, I mean, we've kind of nitpicked it already in terms of what didn't work. Yeah, what didn't work was a lot of the inconsistencies and questionable details that just kind of drive us insane at this point. Yes.
01:36:44
Speaker
Now, we're going to get into some trivia. Again, I'm going to quote from Life of Riley with editor Glenn Greenberg commenting on this particular story.
Continuity Issues and Humorous Mistakes
01:36:55
Speaker
And the first part he gets into, he says, quote, this was an attempt to finally explain away all of the stuff established in the evolutionary war.
01:37:05
Speaker
but it probably could have been done better. And I really didn't like finding out that the Gwen Stacy clone had set up housekeeping with the clone of Miles Warren in the suburbs. So that part, I thought, I don't know what he's referring to, because I went back to the story and I was like, what housekeeping is he talking about? Maybe it's something I missed. Well, I think he just means that they're married and that like, they think house together. I think that's all that. It's just a weird phrase.
01:37:32
Speaker
Since, uh, he goes on further to say, since I had no role in the development of this particular story, uh, Eric Fine was the editor and I was still Tom Brave Arts assistant. My involvement was limited to that of an observer. And I don't think I even knew what was happening in Web of Cideran 125 until I saw it in print.
01:37:51
Speaker
returning to the bridge where Gwen died had become an established Spider-Man cliche by that point and an overused one at that. And I'm gonna cut in not just that, but the introducing of Gwen clone, introducing like the shock reveal of this, like it's been done in comic books that came a month or two before this.
01:38:16
Speaker
So I'm done with that. But back to what Glenn Greenberg said. To this day, whenever a Spider-Man writer tries for dramatic irony or poignancy, it usually involves Spider-Man being at that bridge. I was guilty of using this cliche myself in the very first professional Spider-Man story I ever wrote. It was in the 1995 Spider-Man holiday special, which we'll presumably get to in a few weeks. But it's now about six years later
01:38:42
Speaker
at the time of writing that. And I've seen this scene played again out a number of times since then, so all I can say is enough with the bridge already, move on. Yeah. Boy, do I agree. Well, I think they were on the bridge earlier in this series. Yeah, probably. Like Ben Riley goes on the bridge. Incidentally, it's still unclear, and this is, I brought this up earlier, it's still unclear exactly which bridge was the site of Gwen's death.
01:39:12
Speaker
In the original story told in Amazing Spider-Man 121, it was drawn as the Brooklyn Bridge, but writer Jerry Conway referred to it in the script as the George Washington Bridge. Spider-Man even comments that it's appropriate that Norman Osborn would go to a bridge named after his favorite president, and that Osborn has the same sort of hang-up about dollar bills.
01:39:35
Speaker
In later reprints of the story, the dialogue is changed so that the bridge is identified as the Brooklyn Bridge and Spider-Man's comment about Norman's love of money is deleted. However,
01:39:46
Speaker
plenty of other stories were still being done in which the bridge was referred to as the George Washington Bridge, which only added to the confusion. To deal with this, whenever Tom Breivor and I worked on a story that referred back to the events of The Amazing 121, our approach was to simply not refer to the bridge by a specific name. That's how we had writer Kurt Busek deal with it in the legacy of evil one shot and how I dealt with it when I wrote the Osborne Journal. And that's why
01:40:15
Speaker
in this comic, it's drawn clearly as the Brooklyn Bridge. Like if you've ever been on the Brooklyn Bridge, it's very noticeable. Yes, you do know it's that bridge. Yes, and it continues to be called the George Washington Bridge. That's why, because in the original comic, it is drawn as the Brooklyn Bridge and called the George Washington Bridge. And so they just, I like that. That's just the thing that they keep doing. I love that they can't decide on a bridge.
01:40:45
Speaker
I think it's great. Flip a coin. The idea of having a mistake continue is fun to me. It's sort of like... I think that one's a fun bit. I like it. I don't mind it.
01:41:00
Speaker
That one I really like. I'm fine with, it's kind of like if you tune into, I mean, I guess with us, like P3PO, like it's sort of like an inside joke that just keeps going. Yeah, I like it. As long as like, you know, I think that's a good fun bit. It's not like it's really confusing anybody.
01:41:22
Speaker
Like, don't let you know if they want you to believe it's the bridge that Gwen Stacy died on, you know? They'll let you know. But that brings us to the end of this, I forget even what issue we read.
Preview of Next Storyline
01:41:41
Speaker
125.
01:41:42
Speaker
Web of Spider-Man 125. I'm freaking on it. And the next storyline that we do is called Crossfire for no reason. It literally has nothing to do with the story. It's just a weird name. But we will get into that next time. Love it.
01:42:08
Speaker
It also really has nothing to do with this. It's just there was, this was kind of like the breather between like big event and like, not really big event, but like other weird event. Okay. Uh, so. Funky.
01:42:24
Speaker
We'll get into that next time. You can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedantic cast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recordings at comicallypedantic at gmail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question read on the air and don't forget,
01:42:49
Speaker
We still own fuckcomicscape.com if you'd like to send a donation to the games and online harassment hotline. We will be back with another deep dive into the world of comics. But until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.
01:43:17
Speaker
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