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Spider-Man Clone Saga: The Mark of Kaine Part 2
54 Plays1 year ago
Corinne finishes The Mark of Kaine. Everyone still wonders what the point of this actually was.
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Transcript
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello,
Exploring Complex Comic Concepts
00:00:14
Speaker
and welcome to Comicly Pedantic, where we talk about complicated concepts and characters and history of comic book culture. I'm one of the hosts. My name's Corinne. Usually I'm second in this intro. And joining me on this episode, because I'm taking over, baby, is the wonderful Derek L. Chase.
00:00:39
Speaker
That was wonderful. You did such a good job. It's like I did theater once. Welcome to the show. How you feeling? How you doing? It's been so long. It's been a solid 24 hours since we last spoke. I think you and I were both a little delirious when we got to the end. I was slowly going insane because so we're, we're doing part two of our Mark of Cain.
00:01:06
Speaker
episode. I was really confident in the beginning because we're recording this a little while after I had read the issues. And I was like, yeah, this will be a breeze. It's like it's one straight through storyline. It'll be fine. And then I slowly descended into madness of how, of how just like in depth these issues are. And then equally chaotic, my internet was being a poopy face. So we had to stop.
00:01:35
Speaker
My guess is, because I've thought about this the last few times that we've recorded, my guess is we might end up having to do a lot more two-parters as we go into. I can see that happening, yeah. There's a storyline coming up that you and I have already split in two. Yes.
00:01:57
Speaker
it might end up being a four-parter. Oh my gosh, right. Because originally it was, it's like crazy long. And I was like, oh, we'll split it up and we'll do, we'll do part one and part two. But as we're getting into these, like it's weird because it's simultaneously, I don't think enough happens. And yet there's a bunch of shit that needs to be talked about in the things that like don't matter. Yeah. Well, because we're kind of hitting the point where like,
00:02:26
Speaker
the series is starting to be milked. It's starting to feel inflated. And so instead of just like focusing on like, here's the story, is the story written well? Yes, no. Now it's kind of like, what is happening? Why is this particular thing happening? Like it's all of the topics are becoming inflated. So now the time has expanded. Now I feel like we're at a point to
Chaotic Comic Storylines Discussion
00:02:55
Speaker
where you're starting to see all of the cracks. It's not like it was watertight when they started, but even last episode we talked about with Glenn Greenberg, this is where you can see where the sales department was saying, no, no, no, no, no, you can't end this storyline. You have to continue it. I feel like
00:03:25
Speaker
from this specific storyline on is where you start to see where the story starts to like show what characters are well developed and then which ones were clearly just fillers that they now have to finish filling. I'm really feeling that. And I especially with the end of this storyline, I really feel that with with Kane and
00:03:52
Speaker
P3PO, which is if you somehow don't know, it's what we've been calling regularly the third Peter Parker that's been introduced to the storyline.
Personal Highlights and Gifting Joys
00:04:03
Speaker
I guess before I fully dive into this again, do you somehow have a bright spot that's developed in the past 24 hours? Well, now I feel bad because last time I had, I basically had two. So I have
00:04:17
Speaker
a brand new toy for my dog. And that's going to be my bright spot because I think I am more excited about this stupid thing than I think he will be. I think he'll be interested in it, but I think it's adorable. Uh, you and I have already talked about it because we, we had an extended period of talking about cat toys right before we started recording so much.
00:04:42
Speaker
There is like, I like to shop. It's not something I'm proud to admit because I, but to me honestly though, I am fine with it. Cause shopping for me is just going to a store, touching things and then putting it back down and not actually buying it. But then eventually I'll buy some stuff. Something about pet toys and things for my little kitty cat. God, it is so hard to not
00:05:12
Speaker
By the things Because he's just like like my little baby and it's like it's a treat for him. It's a gift for something someone else It's not for me right and like I get excited for seeing I mean this is in in general Not just with with pets, but like I really like Finding something that someone else enjoy. Yes I was
00:05:40
Speaker
I think Austin got a little mad at me because for Valentine's Day, there was a game she wanted to play, but it wasn't out on anything really except for PS5.
00:05:51
Speaker
I bought her a PS5 to then buy her the game. She, Austin texted me. She was like, guess what? Derek got me for Valentine's day. And I was like, Oh, did like, he take you out for coffee? Like, did he get you like,
00:06:11
Speaker
I don't know my brain was like it's something coffee related or like he's taking you thrifting or like your guys are going to a cool like the sushi spot or whatever and then she was like no a PS5 and I was like holy shit. It was my I I could not think of anything like I had a few things that I was like oh I'll get it for her but nothing that I thought that she would enjoy that much like something that she would be like oh that's kind of fun I
00:06:41
Speaker
you know, shove it off into the corner after you're done playing with it for 10 minutes. And then I had something, I knew she wanted this game, so I was like, well, clearly I have to buy the PlayStation now. And I
Video Game Preferences Debate
00:06:57
Speaker
played it for about 20 minutes the other day. It's gonna, this is definitely a her thing. I like, I like games, I like,
00:07:11
Speaker
I'm way more, I'm very simple when it comes to games. There's a lot of bells and whistles on this. I do not know how to work it yet. So I'm not even going to bother until there's something I'm excited about that comes out. So this is very much a, she gets to play with this as much as she wants, whenever she wants, and I will be in the corner reading a book. Yeah, I am a Switch Light person.
00:07:36
Speaker
I don't like playing video games like on the big TV or anything. I just want it in my tiny grubby hands or like it can be on my laptop because I have like slap in my laptop because I have like a steam account and that's where I got like. That's where I started to get back into video games like in my current adult life, if that's what we're going to call it. So like I have like a mix of either like a handful of things on steam and then a handful of things on the switch and they're all like fairly basic.
00:08:07
Speaker
I attempted to play Elden Ring and was really like garbaggio at it. So I think that's too complicated, but I can do like Pokemon, Scarlet and Violet pretty well. And I think that's like the level of complication I'll keep it at and that's fine.
00:08:32
Speaker
Max is the gamer out of the two of us. He just actually steam in the months of March is doing their spring sale, I guess. The Spider-Man game is actually, I think it was on sale. I don't know if he ended up getting it, but he might have.
00:08:55
Speaker
We have that on the PlayStation 4. It's a really fun game. Oh, okay, yeah. So they made it for, I guess they got it to work on Steam now, or for a little bit they have, and now it's on sale. So he has the app. It's a lot of fun. Now that is a more complicated game, but- Exactly. Like I probably won't be, I would probably fall off all the buildings if I tried to swing around, but he's doing well. So that's good.
00:09:23
Speaker
I mean, you and I have talked on
In-Depth Mark of Cain Analysis
00:09:26
Speaker
this show about, you know, my love is like Sonic the Hedgehog and Super Mario and like Spyro the Dragon. I like stuff like that. So I don't really need a PlayStation 5 or anything like that. I was very happy with the Switch. Yeah, that's what I'm sticking with. I'm happy with that too. I don't need a lot.
00:09:49
Speaker
No, same. I really don't. Like what I've got right now, good system. I'm sticking with it. It's fine. I'm very content. Do you have a bright spot from yesterday to today? Oh, yeah. Okay. So I wake up like before the sun wakes up for work and it's very difficult just because I'm new to the job. So I haven't gotten used to it yet.
00:10:17
Speaker
Um, but one of my favorite things is like, is the cat will just follow me around all morning and just want to hang out and snuggle with me. And I will just be like, almost just like a tired old man with their cat. And it's so nice. I love that very much. He's sitting behind me right now being an extra special good boy.
00:10:43
Speaker
Um, so that was like a nice bright spot. And then I made a really nice egg, like an avocado toast sandwich for dinner today because I didn't know what else to do. And it was really good. So that is my other bright spot.
00:11:02
Speaker
I think that's going to be it. Is my cat about to be a dark spot and try and jump on the counter? Yes, he is. But yeah, you're not good. Okay, we're good. Everything's fine. But yeah, good sandwich, good mischievous cat. I'm content. So I guess we should get started with the remaining two issues of the market game.
00:11:27
Speaker
It is the last two, a lot happens, but we're going to get through it because we're tough. So we ended last episode on Spider-Man 58 where they finally catch up with Mary Jane who's kidnapped by Kane and they essentially, the three Spider-Men attack Kane.
00:11:52
Speaker
Peter Parker, who just escaped prison, grabs his wife and is like, we got to get out of here. And she's like, you're right. And it ends with OG Peter Parker and Mary Jane being cornered in the sewer with a crazy P-3PO who's just once again been rejected by Mary Jane.
00:12:13
Speaker
because he gives her another opportunity to be like his wife and she's like no. And then on the other side is Kane who is also caught up with them from fighting a Scarlet Spider. So that's literally where it's going to pick up.
00:12:28
Speaker
in Spectacular Spider-Man issue 224. The title is The Assassin With My Face. Haha, because they're all clones. The writer is Tom DeFalco. Penciler is Sal Buscema. Buscema? Buscema. Okay, like Buscemi. Oh my gosh, good for you. Anchor is Bill Senkowitz. Sentevich. Okay.
00:12:56
Speaker
Okay, Anchors, Bill Sinkiewicz, Colorist
P3PO's Tragic Transformation
00:12:59
Speaker
is John Kaliz, Letterer, Clem Robbins, and Editors are Eric Fine and Danny Fingerer.
00:13:07
Speaker
So. You got the, you're continuing your streak of getting. I am, I'm, I'm snapping to myself. Cause I'm now a professional everybody. I've done an intro and I do full credits now. Now you and I have talked before about Sal Buscema and Bill Sinkiewicz working together. Yes, it's usually very, it's tough to see. From what I remember about
00:13:36
Speaker
the photo because I don't have the photos in front of me and it's been a couple days since I read it. Right. So something happens in this issue literally in the beginning. So we'll talk about it right now. Basically, as we know, cornering situation, P3PO has progressively throughout this storyline in particular has been getting more quick to violence and very aggressive and angry.
00:14:03
Speaker
a lot of breaking things, things like that. He's been a lot. The Leo Aries energy is strong in a not great way, unfortunately. So eventually we've kind of are gonna see the peak of that because he starts to physically like transform. It's kind of like your classic like Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde kind of thing.
00:14:31
Speaker
where he's just like, he's going straight ugly. He kind of has a person face, kind of an ape man vibe. It's, it's werewolfish, but still that kind of hide extra violent, strong, scary, hunchback kind of thing.
00:14:55
Speaker
So kind of like, have you read the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? I have not, but I know that it takes a lot of like classic literary characters. Yeah. Right. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, Mr. Hyde in particular are characters in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. And I was curious if it's something similar to that, but I guess if you haven't read it.
00:15:19
Speaker
So honestly, kind of, you know, like obviously they are going to look a little different, but like the vibes are kind of there. So I think that is a fair comparison. A very long winded way of answering that question. P3PO is probably a lot hairier though. It's very bizarre. So everybody is
00:15:39
Speaker
shocked to see this transformation. Um, and it is kind of like, what the hell is this? And we learn that the Jackal has created him to be some sort of like monstrous, like spider killer. So just to kill out all the, the spider men and all the clones, which I don't know, seems of character or not.
00:16:06
Speaker
Because it seemed like the Jackal really liked making clones to confuse. Yeah, I don't know what the plan would be there because everything has been to kind of screw with... Yeah, I don't... Well, especially with how I know where the clone saga will go, I don't really...
00:16:31
Speaker
I don't think that makes sense. Unless it's kind of one of the, my other thought was it was one of the situations where like, remember when they first, when they first hiked over to the cat skills and. They took a nice little. Yeah. They took a jaunt over and there was the other kind of like monster Spider-Man thing that got killed off pretty. Oh yeah. The, the guardian. Yeah. So then my, my backup thought was like, Oh, he just did another one of these.
00:17:02
Speaker
and let it get out or something. But I don't know. They don't fully like explain.
Complexities of the Clone Saga
00:17:08
Speaker
They're just like spider killer. So Peter Parker, the one that's not like a giant creepy thing is helping Mary Jane escape. And Scarlet spider stays behind to fight Kane and now
00:17:26
Speaker
P3P monster. While this fight is going on, we're gonna focus in the sewer for a second, while they're fighting, P3PO is still saying that he's the real Spider-Man, he's the real Peter Parker, and his logic behind this and what he's saying to everybody is basically the Jackal cursed him to be like this until he destroys all of
00:17:54
Speaker
Jackal's enemies. This is getting kind of sad. The delusion is upsetting people. It's very heartbreaking, but it's also just kind of ridiculous because it's just so much happening. But it is kind of sad. It's like you're just watching someone in delusional denial and it's
00:18:23
Speaker
it's very bizarre. The Scarlet Spider is still like very confused by like everything that's just happened in the past two minutes, but he is clearly very confident in who the real Peter Parker is and who he is himself. So everybody's continuing to fight and it kind of starts to become more of like Scarlet Spider's just trying to make sure like nobody fully
00:18:48
Speaker
dies, but like maybe some people are like incapacitated. Kane is very focused on getting rid of a P3PO because I guess he just sees that as more eminent danger, which I guess is fair. So yeah, that's happening. Back at Rikers, we're going to have a quick interlude with Judas and Scryer. They're waiting for Peter Parker to return.
00:19:18
Speaker
The illusion, so a couple issues ago, one or two issues ago, when Peter breaks out of prison, Judas puts an illusion on, he basically puts a fake Peter Parker into his cell. That illusion, they're basically saying, hey, if this can't hold forever, are you sure that Peter Parker is gonna come back? He's not just like,
00:19:43
Speaker
abusing this favor, quote unquote, that you gave him. And Judas specifically says, the real Peter will do the right thing. And that's like how the scene ends. And you're like, okay. That's interesting. That is a thing. I guess,
00:20:10
Speaker
I like that sentiment, but I also think it's interesting because I feel like Ben Riley would also do the right thing in this situation. Honestly, out of the three, I'm still gonna count the like, the essentially, the monster of Peace Rubio. Those two would, I feel like, at this point in the story, I feel like they would both make the same decision.
00:20:36
Speaker
We will see how it plays out. It's interesting. But yeah, I feel like both of them would make that decision.
00:20:45
Speaker
Meanwhile, we're gonna go back underground. The Scarlet Spider is struggling. Kane and Hammer, again, like I said, they're both at this point focusing on trying to get rid of the Spider Killer. They keep calling him Freakazoid also because it's the 90s, by the way. So from now on... That just makes me think of the cartoon show. I don't know if you ever saw Freakazoid. Yeah.
00:21:11
Speaker
That was an okay cartoon. I didn't watch it a ton, but I vividly remember his face, because I kept thinking he was in one of the animated Batman series, and then it wasn't. Now you got to look up Madman. There's a lot of Madman in Freakazoid. Oh, yeah. I think Madman's cooler.
00:21:35
Speaker
Madman is an interesting book, so I mean. Like the style of Madman I think is much cooler and neater than Freakazoid. Freakazoids, what is it? His proportions really confused me. And he also just has like
00:21:56
Speaker
the voice of like, I feel like a 12 year old boy. Like the voice for Freakazoid does not match the body in my eyes. So the proportions for Freakazoid are, I mean, that's a Bruce Timm thing. He's very much a creation of that time. Bruce Timm is the one who did all of the DC, Justice League, Batman, all of those shows. And I love those.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah. I think they fit really well. He has a particular style. And I think over the years, it's grown into its own thing. Whereas before, if you watch the early seasons of the Batman show, it does not look the same as Batman Beyond does. No, it doesn't. It gets way more stylized as it goes on. Anyway, back to Spider-Man.
00:22:55
Speaker
we're underground,
Peter and Mary Jane's Supportive Relationship
00:22:56
Speaker
they're fighting, prioritizing trying to get rid of freakazoid spider killer. Kane is definitely fighting in a more chaotic way. Cause he's like, I don't care if anyone dies, I'm just going to like throw rocks and shit. That kind of checks out. Yeah. So the fighting is intensifying because Kane is chaotic and also because as like punches and rocks are being thrown,
00:23:22
Speaker
They're learning more about the potential power that Peace Repio has because he's growing in size and stature and everything. As they're fighting, you basically find out that the Jackal has done more than just turn him into a really creepy monster. He's also made it so that Peace Repio can, quote unquote, recode his DNA and morph his body to how he needs to.
00:23:52
Speaker
Okay. Really bizarre, weirdly like a convenient obstacle, but like kind of funky. I don't know. Um, I like that idea. That's one of the things that I liked about, uh, Shin Shin Godzilla was that the whole concept of that version of Godzilla was that he's constantly evolving to overcome whatever like obstacles are in his way. That's an interesting concept. Sounds like this was sort of
00:24:22
Speaker
thrown in at the last minute. It did feel kind of like it was thrown in, but now that you kind of mention it in that way, I'm like, oh, well, like maybe that would make sense for a clone to have that because it's like genetic modification and like. So interesting because like we're at a point now where I don't think any of the clones can count as clones because they're all being changed. Yeah. So.
00:24:51
Speaker
Hmm, well now I'm back into, I don't know how I feel about it. Here's the thing, I don't wanna, I don't wanna not like, like I want to like this like issue, this little storyline, but I don't know. It's just like something is stopping me from like being like, all right, hell yeah, this is the time.
00:25:18
Speaker
Um, but we're almost done with issue four and we're almost then going to be done issue five. We're moving on above ground. We're going to do a whole new scene now. Mary Jane tells, uh, Peter to, to go help Scarlet spider. Like she knows her husband. She knows that this whole time he has been feeling bad about, you know,
00:25:46
Speaker
leaving Ben Riley, who's already done so much to help in this lost cause of a fight. She knows and understands this overwhelming sense of responsibility that he has towards other people. But she also knows that he doesn't want to do that without her support. So she, before he even can ask, tells him to
00:26:15
Speaker
to just go do it. And like that has been like kind of like thought bubbles throughout the issue. He's kind of like, I'd got to save my wife, but also I don't, I don't want to just like leave someone with a real shit mess to clean up. So he, so Peter feels really like grateful for her saying that. And they basically end the conversation with like,
00:26:42
Speaker
They're going to have their happily ever after like someday soon. It's going to be okay. I'm like, oh, that's great. Like this is good. They have a good, good marriage, even though they're still dealing with like the prison, they're dealing with pain, all this stuff. Like they're, they still got some good bones. So that, that was nice.
00:27:06
Speaker
After she's gone, the rest of the crew essentially come bursting out of the ground and the fight continues, just now in open air essentially. And then eventually, just after some action panels and stuff like that, the fight ends with our little freakazoid spider killer and Kane getting away in an explosion. We don't see them at the end of this issue. The Scarlet Spider,
00:27:35
Speaker
was in the fire of the like, you know, this whole explosion and Peter drags him out. And they're both just very stressed about this like whole situation. And Peter essentially starts lamenting that like, he's got to go back to Rikers and like, he's got to wait his trial now. Like he just had this whole crazy complicated fight.
00:28:02
Speaker
There's so many unanswered questions and now he has to go back to prison. And he's like, this is kind of shitty, but like, guess I gotta go do it.
Ben Riley's Sacrificial Offer
00:28:14
Speaker
And he kind of lets out this little comment of like, it seems like he is like the only one that doesn't really understand that like, this is like Kane's fault. Like Kane is the one who the murderer is.
00:28:33
Speaker
And so sometimes he still has moments of like, what's Ben Riley been doing? Like what's going on here? So he kind of puts out this little like side comment of being like, you could have been the murderer for all I know. Like what the heck is going on here?
00:28:54
Speaker
And Ben Riley responds to this and he's like, I know I'm innocent of all these crimes and I know just as much that you are fully innocent as well and that you're going to get out of this. And to prove it to you that we're both innocent, he is offering to switch places with Peter Parker.
00:29:23
Speaker
He's like, I will go to prison in your place. You go home to your wife because your wife needs you. She's pregnant. She, she needs you more than the prison needs you. So, um, fair point. Yeah. And it's basically like, they're like, we'll switch costumes. Like you just take mine and like I'll take your, your jail uniform and
00:29:52
Speaker
just go take care of your family. And so the issue ends officially with back to Judas and Scryer knowing all along that the two men would switch places. Interesting. Yeah. It's a cool plot twist, but I just, I like Ben Riley as Ben Riley. I do too. You and I have talked before just about
00:30:22
Speaker
Ben being the better Spider-Man at this point. And just an interesting character. Yeah. I like that he has his own life going on, and I like that Peter has his own life going on. But I also think it's interesting and fun, maybe fun's not the right word, for Ben to be there for Peter. Yes.
00:30:50
Speaker
I think that the decision that Ben Riley makes is very heroic. It's just a very good character decision. He is witnessing a lot of doubts from Peter, a lot of a very mixed opinion from him.
00:31:17
Speaker
And he probably doesn't want to deal with that anymore. And, like, you know, it's a very bold way to prove something, but it does make sense for him. I just don't want it to be this whole thing where it's like, again, Ben Riley vs. Peter Parker deciding which one is which.
00:31:37
Speaker
But like, they should take shifts. Yeah, they should. Ben goes for three days. Peter goes for three days. Yes, absolutely. I'm so about that. But yeah, so that is how the four out of fifth issue goes.
00:31:54
Speaker
Well, I
Characterization in Mark of Cain
00:31:55
Speaker
have some comments from Glenn Greenberg. Yeah. I mean, a lot happens in this one. It kind of felt like this could have been the end. I finished this issue and I was like, how is there possibly a fifth one? That's actually something that I'm currently thinking. Yeah. We'll talk about what happens, but please share fun facts. The comments that I have from Glenn Greenberg, again, taken from the life of Riley,
00:32:22
Speaker
The first thing that he comments on is P3PO getting so violent and saying that he would kill anyone that's in his way. He states that pretty much killed any speculation that Peter number three could be the real guy. Peter Parker would never condone killing. So from that moment on, Peter three was essentially nothing more than another plot point that needed to be wrapped up, which sounds pretty accurate for
00:32:51
Speaker
how most of the characters and plots that were sort of introduced in the last dozen issues are being handled. Well, and that's how it felt. Like, it was just, he was so much less quippy. He was just so aggressive and psychotic that it's like, there is literally, I know that like in the beginning of this storyline that like, you know, OG Peter Parker was like going through it, but that was more just like almost like
00:33:20
Speaker
depression boy trying to come out of it as opposed to like a literal psycho, just. So it felt pretty clear from the beginning that like he was just a guy and now he's just a crazy guy. So it was a time. Well, and then Greenberg goes on to talk about his death, Peter, P-3PO's death.
00:33:49
Speaker
He states, I liked the fact that the third Peter Parker went down absolutely convinced that he was the real one, despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Tom DeFalco did a nice job with this issue, injecting Peter III with a real sense of tragedy. He wasn't just a run-of-the-mill, morphing, wise-cracking bad guy.
00:34:10
Speaker
which it sounds like he kind of was at the end. But he wasn't. It was really just straight up deranged. And I think a lot of my negative and tired feelings of the character is because it definitely felt like it was just a loose end that was being trimmed off finally. It doesn't even feel like it was that interesting of an idea.
00:34:36
Speaker
We just had him wander around for a while and then he goes crazy. Yeah. It didn't become interesting until he was crazy. Greenberg goes further on to say, uh, that I guess during this storyline, they also, they call him freak face. Yes, it was freak face. Um, not freakazoid, but it's whatever. Freak face is fun. Freakazoid is a better name. I guess. So during this.
00:35:05
Speaker
They call him Freakface and apparently that was Tom DeFalco pushing for that to be the character's name. So the idea was that they were going to like have him stick around and the name for the character would be Freakface. And according to Glenn Greenberg, I'm going to quote again, it certainly was no worse than the name that was actually used later on.
00:35:28
Speaker
which I don't know what that is. This is a blind spot for me. So I don't know what that name is. But he goes on to say, overall though, my belief was that once Peter III was revealed to be just another clone, he should have been disposed of as quickly and as permanently as possible. He'd already served his purpose as a red herring and there were already too many variations of Peter Parker running around. We never should have seen him again in my opinion. So I guess that's foreshadowing that he does show back up
00:35:57
Speaker
It's yeah, I, it's not in this next issue, but it's kind of vague. There's a scene that like involves like kind of like, whoa, where is he? It's again, it's just it feels very much like a loose end. I think that's like it being being finished finally. And I think that
00:36:18
Speaker
couldn't have said it better. So it was a very cool way to like, you know, trim the loose end because it was interesting. But again, I think that's why I overall, I'm not a fan. It's because I was just, I was hyper aware of like what it was, I think.
00:36:36
Speaker
So that makes sense. But we are finally going to wrap up Mark of Cain with the Spider-Man Unlimited number nine. And this is called Unholy Alliances. The writers are Tom Lyle and then the pencilers are Ron Lim, Ron Garni and Todd Smith. Your anchors are,
Villains Plot Against Kane
00:37:01
Speaker
get ready for this, Tom Palmer,
00:37:06
Speaker
Randy Emberlin, Tim Toy. That name is the one I don't know. It's T-U-O-H-Y. Al Migram. Okay. Jimmy Palomati, or Palmiati. So Al Milgram and Jimmy Palmiati. Yes, Palmiati. I do know those things. Okay, great. Klaus Jansen.
00:37:30
Speaker
Sam De La Rosa and Don Hudson. Colorist is John Colise and the letterer is Joe Rosen. Editor is Danny Fingereff and your girl did it. Full storyline, full credits. That is a shit ton of anchors. That's the most amount of anchors I have seen.
00:37:52
Speaker
Right. I actually wanted to comment on that. So that indicates to me, this is one of those things where like, if you start getting really into comic books and you notice something like that, that means that this was done in a rush. They had to hand this off to all of those people. Unless it's done for a specific, like a purpose in the story, like you have an anchor does a particular,
00:38:19
Speaker
time in, you know, or a pencil or does a particular, I don't know. There were a lot of characters in this issue. So I didn't know if it had to do with that. I didn't know if it had to do with, are we entering a period where like,
00:38:33
Speaker
new employment is coming in and old employment is going out. Like I really was not sure what was going on. My guess here is, cause this is sort of the playbook, especially the Marvel runs by, they were running up on a deadline. They needed this to be put out ASAP. So what you have is you have a completed issue by the penciler. They send off.
00:38:59
Speaker
two pages to one anchor, two pages to another anchor, two pages to a third anchor, and then they all run through it as fast as possible. And now is the anchor just like the black and white, like the black lines? Yeah, so the penciler lays down. Lays down like the base. And then the anchor does. The anchor then goes over it, they add the textures,
00:39:24
Speaker
Uh, they add in, sometimes they'll add in some of the spotted blacks. Sometimes it's just really adding a little bit of extra weight to where a character would be. It gives depth. Yeah, absolutely. Like, and then, um, the colorist is like, it's color child baby. Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought. Um, so glad that was finally confirmed.
00:39:50
Speaker
Probably should've asked that earlier, but whatever, we learned at our own face, people, let me live. So this is gonna open up with the Sinister Six. Great start. Yes. It's all the people from funeral for an octopus. So your Mysterio, your Electro, your Hobgoblin,
00:40:18
Speaker
your young vulture. So it's them. Because I guess it never fulfilled to six because Doc Ock is dead and I can't remember who the actual person was. But so it's them. And then it's also shocker, beetle and Scorpia. They are all at a meeting together.
00:40:44
Speaker
all of them. It is a big bundle of bad people. And basically, they are having a meeting to discuss that they all have mutual hatred for Cain, because Cain is a threat to all of Spider-Man's villains, as we can see from
00:41:04
Speaker
Doc Ock being dead, Mysterio being like attempted murder to like, you know, a bunch of villains being attempted deaths. Grim the Hunter is like dead because of Kane. And they're like, we got to get rid of Kane before he gets rid of us. So even though we don't like each other, we're going to band together and get rid of this guy and then we can go back to fighting each other. So they have collected data of like Kane's frequent like sightings and like his
00:41:34
Speaker
spots. So they are basically going to dispatch across the city, look around these frequent sighting spots and try and find him and kill him. That's how it opens up. The only one that's like really complaining about this is like young vulture for some reason, but he has like a tiny brawl and then they, they deal with it and they go out on their separate ways. I mean, last time we saw him, he was kind of insane.
00:42:03
Speaker
Young Vulture or Old Vulture? Young Vulture. Well, Young Vulture was the one that wanted to bird poison everyone. That's true, yes. And then he was also in the funeral for an octopus because that's how he gets like a tracker on him while he fights.
00:42:24
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. He was less crazy in that one. What a time. What a journey that this vulture goes through. But so this is all happening, I guess basically around the time that the fight from the last issue is ending. So at this point,
00:42:44
Speaker
Peter Parker is now on his way home. He's in the Ben Riley suit. He's swinging home. And then as he's doing that, his Spidey senses are starting to go off. And he's looking around and he notices the beetle.
00:43:02
Speaker
just kind of out and about. And he's like, hmm, this is a weird place for the beetle to be. I should probably stop him because he seems like he's going to do a bad thing. Now the beetle sees spider or scarlet spider, or at least what he thinks is the scarlet spider. And he's like, oh no, I've never fought this guy before. And I don't have time for that. So he's like trying to escape who he thinks is scarlet spider.
00:43:32
Speaker
And Peter Parker's like, whoa now, and goes after him. Cause he's like, oh, he's fleeing the scene. And essentially, um, the beetle flies through a building literally just to get away from him. He's like, I will do anything to flee this person.
00:43:52
Speaker
like fly through a building. And this stops Peter Parker. He has to now like help civilians that could have been hurt through a busted building. And he eventually like he helps all the people and like they're all okay. So part of like the Scarlet Spider uniform is there's like a little backpack. I don't know like if you ever really notice it, but it's like I there's still a little backpack.
00:44:19
Speaker
I think that might just be something that he carries around, maybe as he quick changes. I guess so, but this backpack gets left behind in this building and it has the black Spider-Man mask in it. The mask?
00:44:41
Speaker
Right. And none other than Ken Ellis sees that in the backpack is this mask and is like, how did the Scarlet Spider get a hold of this? And that's like where that scene essentially ends. I don't think that's such an interesting question. It's about, yeah, like I, it's like, they're almost like, how could one spider person not like be connected to another spider person?
00:45:10
Speaker
Yeah. To me, if I, if there are two superheroes that are very similarly themed, have the same superpowers and operate very close to each other, I'm not saying that they have to know each other, but it would be something that it would definitely cross my mind. Yeah. Like I just know if it was like maybe like, Oh, like.
00:45:33
Speaker
I'm literally trying to think of any Marvel superhero. Like if Captain America showed up and then just had like a freaking like the visions cape, it would be really weird. Like these two don't add up. I mean, but that kind of makes sense because they're on the Avengers together. It would be weirder if it were something like Captain America shows up and he has
00:46:03
Speaker
like a new mutants costume or something. He's got the Wolverine mask. It's such a weird thing to be like these people are so closely associated.
00:46:16
Speaker
but I'm weirded out by that for some reason. Like I don't, I don't. Ken Ellis is a bad reporter. He is. I don't like him. His instincts are of like action or terrible. I just don't like him. I think he's really annoying, but it's whatever. He's here, I guess, to stay. There is a quick check on like how the sinister six plus others are doing and they haven't found Kane yet, but they're still looking.
00:46:46
Speaker
Now, Peter does get home to Mary Jane. This woman is an absolute mess from the past couple hours, I guess, that have gone by. The gun
Mary Jane's Emotional Turmoil
00:47:01
Speaker
was left at the house. Literally, Cain had just knocked it out of her hands last episode. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So essentially, what she is now witnessing is
00:47:14
Speaker
someone dressed as the Scarlet Spider is now in her house. So she's pulling out this gun again. And she's like, I have had enough of this. Like everybody leave me alone. Like I don't know. I understand. Um, thankfully like Peter does prove that he's the real Peter to her. He basically is like,
00:47:39
Speaker
This is a valid response to how you're feeling. It is me. I am your husband, but I don't want you to be uncomfortable or scared. So I can leave if you want me to. And I guess throughout this conversation, she's like, it is you. It's really you. And she's like, very relieved.
00:48:02
Speaker
And she just, she just zonks out. She's so exhausted. And they just like have a nice moment of like, oh my gosh, you're here. Please just be with me in this moment. And then she knocks out. Because it's been a long, it's been a long hot minute for her. So. Yeah, I can imagine when you mentioned that it had just been like a few hours of this, I actually thought back to
00:48:33
Speaker
This won't spoil anything for you. It's a very offhand comment. I'm about to talk about screen. Okay. At one point in screen six, they, they make a reference to the fact that the events of screen five take place over three days. And I had hadn't really thought of that until they made a reference.
00:48:58
Speaker
in Scream 6 and I was like, damn, a lot happened in those three days. Yeah. Horror movies really know how to pack things in in short amounts of time. It's impressive. Yeah. And I guess when comics decide to go a little bit horror, it's the same sort of thing. Just the fact that all of this happened in a very brief period to Mary Jane.
00:49:19
Speaker
It is understandable that she is acting the way that she is acting. She is a tough cookie. I'm like, she's so impressive. I'm like, good for you, lady, you're killing it. But not killing anybody because she's a good person. Anyway, we're going to go back to Rikers now for the first time in this issue.
Ben Riley's Identity Confusion
00:49:40
Speaker
And Ben makes a phone call to the Parker House to check on them.
00:49:48
Speaker
He just, because he cares, he's like. He's a sweetheart. He's so good. Like we love Ben. We're Ben fans here. Now, another thing happens at the prison. He gets a visitor and it's, uh, it's Felicia Day. Now they just refer to her as, is it Felicia or is it Felicia? I think it's Felicia.
00:50:16
Speaker
Would it be, is it Hardy? Maybe Day is the name. So Felicia, Felicia Hardy is the black cat. It is the black cat, but they just say that she's Felicia Day. I don't know.
00:50:30
Speaker
I don't know, maybe that was a name she was going by at the time. I don't really know, to be honest. So I really empathized with Ben in this moment because he has this visitor. She's speaking kind of cryptically, just being like, how are you? Whatever. Like, I know you didn't do it or something. And he's like, yeah, I didn't. So I don't, so he, I don't, I'm assuming, I guess I'm not super up on my Spider-Man lore. I don't know if he would know.
00:50:58
Speaker
Well, so Felicia, so she leaves this experience being like, wow, that's really odd. Like Peter was acting like he didn't know me or the black cat at all. So in this, Peter Parker knows who Felicia Day is and he knows that she is the black cat.
00:51:19
Speaker
but Ben very clearly does not know this woman and also definitely doesn't know that she's like the black cat. That's also my, one of my favorite periods of Spider-Man comics is in, in the mid eighties. And that would be around the time that Peter was hanging out with Felicia and they were kind of dating. Okay.
00:51:46
Speaker
They had a weird relationship. Yeah, it was kind of confusing for me as well as Ben Riley. Because I know who the Black Cat is. I know it's like that as a villain in Spider-Man. Or sometimes, I guess, kind of like an anti-hero almost. Yeah. Yeah. She...
00:52:13
Speaker
It's kind of like with Catwoman. That's what I was exactly thinking of. It seems like kind of the Catwoman for Marvel. Right. So it was kind of a weird interaction because, you know, she thinks she's talking to Peter.
00:52:32
Speaker
but she's not, and then has no idea who this woman is and why she's visiting. I still don't really know why she would visit. I just didn't picture them to be close. She and Peter do care about each other quite a lot. And they spent a lot of time together, at least in the 80s.
00:53:01
Speaker
Well, one of the things, well, one of the things I was going to say is that I genuinely am more interested in where this story is going with the fact that Felicia is now involved. I really like, I think she's like, I mean, more power to having female characters. It does make it, you know, for me, like, okay, there's a lady here. That's fun. Um,
00:53:27
Speaker
just because I feel like for a long time part of me not getting into comics was because I couldn't think of a lot of like female characters aside from like Catwoman and like Poison Ivy. And so like it's always cool to see women in comics like doing things for the plot other than being like a victim or something. So I like, I hope she continues to be like cool and helpful
00:53:55
Speaker
or something, I don't know. So yeah, weird interaction. We're gonna go back to the villain squad now, and they are still searching. Hobgoblin, who has kind of been like the leader of this
00:54:09
Speaker
mission, essentially, he initiated it, he organized it, everything. Um, he's like about to give up because it's been, he's like, it's been hours and we haven't found him. And it's like, dude, he's the supervillain. Like, do you think it takes like an hour to find you in New York city? I was going to say, it's also New York fucking city. I think his goals were a bit, uh,
00:54:36
Speaker
I think he pushed himself too hard. He gave himself too high of expectations. That's what I was looking to say. But he's about to give up, but then he's literally ambushed by Kane. But the way Kane enters is so dumb. He enters wearing a Spider-Man costume. And like... I'm trying to picture this. It's like a giant Spider-Man.
00:55:05
Speaker
not like punches or like throws Hobgoblin.
00:55:11
Speaker
Is this hair hanging out? I got to look at it. I don't I don't think so. OK. And then like Hobgoblin's like Spider-Man. And then he just rips everything off and he's like, oh, it's Cain. It's kind of to me the equivalent of like a platypus. That's exactly what I was just thinking. Yeah, it's basically essentially that. Just a side note, there was
00:55:41
Speaker
When I was, it was the summer before I was going into my freshman year of college and I would take care of a bunch of like, we had an international program at the camp I worked at and I made friends with like a lot of the internationals that worked that year. Lovely people, love them all, hope they're all doing great. There was one guy that,
00:56:03
Speaker
Yeah, we were friends who did an amazing Doofenshmirtz impersonation. And I don't talk to them a ton in the most recent years. But
Spider-Man's Intervention in Villain Battle
00:56:15
Speaker
man, the urge I have right now to be like, can you please send me this sound button? Just for myself, it's really strong right now. I hope they're doing well.
00:56:30
Speaker
great Dรผvenschwartz impersonation. One of the best I've ever heard. Anyway, yeah, so that's Kane's version of a sneak attack. And
00:56:41
Speaker
It's, it was pretty goofy. I'm not going to lie. Um, the hobgoblin and like immediately fires back with, um, they have guns. They, they all brought guns this time. Usually they a lot. That's smarter than what they normally do. He fires off the gun, which is like quite loud. Um, and it catches the ears of Peter Parker.
00:57:09
Speaker
He's like, what's that gun sound? I should go figure it out. And so he has left his wife nervous at home alone as he goes to investigate the gun and his logistics behind that are there's danger out there. I got to protect my wife who's in here. So there you go. I mean, it makes some sense. It makes some sense. It's like still the Spiderman thing to do. He's like, Oh no, there's trouble afoot. I gotta go stop it.
00:57:37
Speaker
And this poor woman's just traumatized still. So that's probably gonna be a thing for a while. You just made me wonder if at any point have the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles ever said there's trouble afoot. Because they don't have to. They have like weird. It's because, I was wondering if you knew anything about this. The bad guys in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles lore are the foot clan.
00:58:06
Speaker
they're like ninjas, ninja assassins called the foot. Oh, I did not know that. There's trouble. Oh man, I'm really sad I didn't get your joke before. And it's also the, so they are a parody of the ninja clan from Daredevil called the hand. That's why they're called the foot. Oh, oh my gosh, it's a joke on a joke.
00:58:29
Speaker
Yeah, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comics are, they started entirely as a joke.
00:58:39
Speaker
And then it just, I mean, they were a dark joke, but they were, it was fun, ironic to not ironic. I live, but yeah, a foot. What a time. Uh, you know who else heard the gunshot? Literally all of the other villains from the squad that, uh, were in the meeting from before.
00:59:01
Speaker
So this is about to get pretty messy because essentially Spider-Man who is dressed as Scarlet Spider is about to enter just a full on villain battlefield where people just want to murder the other side. And this time they have guns. And this time they have guns. I would be a terrible superhero. I'm going to preface it with this because to me,
00:59:32
Speaker
I'm so tired of Cain that I was really rooting for the villains. I was like, yes, just get rid of him. Go for it. Like, why would you stop?
00:59:46
Speaker
But Spider-Man is very clearly better than fictional superhero Corinne because he's like, no one can die. So he's literally gonna be entering a fight where he's stopping everybody from murdering each other, but he's also trying to incapacitate everyone. So that is actually one of those things I like about superhero comics. I like it too because it makes it more complicated.
01:00:16
Speaker
And in terms of how you're gonna solve the plot, which is really cool. It makes the character have to be smart in order to solve the problem. But I think for the sake of me not liking a character, I'm like, just write it off, write it off. It is commendable, but it definitely makes it a challenge for him.
01:00:45
Speaker
At another scene, we're gonna go to Stunner and Detective Raven.
Stunner and Raven's Investigation
01:00:51
Speaker
And we talked a little bit about Stunner in part one on how she is a well-developed character. It's cool that she's a part of this. I couldn't agree more. Because this scene, though it was small, very important stuff happens. Essentially, Stunner takes Detective Raven
01:01:11
Speaker
to interrogate some mob members to get the scoop on who is Cain and when did he come into town. And I really liked this scene. I think this was probably my favorite moment from the whole comic because it brought back
01:01:32
Speaker
Remember the mob people in the very first thing I ever read for this? And I was like, I feel like we're never going to see them again or like they're just like hanging around. They're finally back.
01:01:47
Speaker
And they're getting beat up by Stunner until they spill the beans as to when Kane arrived. And it's like, oh my gosh, not only did they come back as I hoped they would, but they also were useful for the characters. That's so interesting. I was very happy about it. Wow. I like when they do it, like they dig those things back up. That's great.
01:02:15
Speaker
It felt such a wave of satisfaction that this happened. I was really, really happy. So now, basically, in a very effective way, Stunner and Detective Raven have good information, getting them closer to maybe catching Cain, which is great. Basically,
01:02:41
Speaker
It then jumps back to like the big fight where Spider-Man, dressed as Scarlet Spider, is fighting still and, you know, Kane is ducking in and out when he can. It's a time. Now, Mary Jane gets a call from Dr. Seaward. We're changing it up again. It's, it kind of gets a little jumpy towards the end in terms of seanage.
01:03:09
Speaker
But Mary Jane gets a call from Dr. Trainer if she can come into the lab to discuss some of her test results. Dun, dun, duh. Yeah.
Mary Jane's Pregnancy Concerns
01:03:21
Speaker
She's like, well, this can't be like good because you want to talk to me in person about this. You know, it's not just like, Hey, I just want to tell you everything's fine. You know, it's a fun time when a doctor calls you and I was like, Hey, I want to talk to you about something vague.
01:03:35
Speaker
Sounds great. Maybe you should sit down. You should sit down. So she heads out alone again, walking to the lab and she's just, again, feeling very sad. She's very alone. She's tired. She just needs like some support. We aren't told again, we aren't told what the findings are, but it seems like it's going to be bad news as we kind of discussed.
01:04:04
Speaker
You won't want to sit down for this. We're going back again to the fight. Still, Spider-Man slash Dress Discard Spider trying to, you know, stop everybody from killing each other. It's very difficult. Kane and Spider-Man slowly, you know, for their own reasons, are bringing down the members of the sinister six, seven, bajillion people that are here in this scene.
01:04:33
Speaker
Um, and it eventually gets worked down to like two to like four members. There's one point where like Mysterio pretends that he is Kane and like uses it as like a sneak attack on Spider-Man, but it doesn't last that long. And yeah, it's just, it's just a big, messy fight. It's a time, but eventually like.
01:04:54
Speaker
the big herd of bad guys gets whittled down. So now we're gonna go to the crime scene of the last issue where we think that P-3PO died. And it's, the reason we think that is because there's just a bunch of goop. There's like, you know when they like degenerate the clones? Yeah, and they kind of, they become like dust. They get goopy. I've always seen goop. Yeah.
01:05:22
Speaker
Goop, goop, goop, that's what, that's the word I've chosen. But Scryer is at the scene and he picks up some of this poop and he takes it with him for later use. That use, we do not know what it is. News, this is such a weird way to end this thing, because it's literally just a couple of like fast and short scenes of like a bunch of different stuff.
01:05:51
Speaker
So we've got the crime scene with the goop. Scryer takes it. The next thing is news breaks out of the Scarlet Spider backpack and how there was a black mask in it. Oh, yeah. See, I had already forgotten about this. Literally, so much happens in this last issue. And it's like, I understand that you're obviously continuing the storyline, but sometimes I just can't
01:06:18
Speaker
stand like when a season finale has so many things. Like sometimes I just need one ending merging into a beginning or like one turning into two new things. I don't need like four different things showing up. It's really confusing. Um, and it's just overwhelming. But so Felicia
01:06:48
Speaker
has the TV on as this news comes up with the whole Scarlet Spider backpack and the mask. And she's like, oh my gosh, I don't think I was talking to Peter. I think I was talking to Ben. I don't know how she knows who Ben is. Yeah. Did we miss something? I feel like they missed telling us something.
Mary Jane Seeks Support from Felicia
01:07:18
Speaker
I don't know, but it ends, the whole issue ends with Mary Jane knocking on Felicia's door, basically being like, I know we're not friends. Like we don't particularly get along, but like I need someone to talk to because I just got some bad news and I need someone to talk to. So, and that's like abruptly how it ends. There you go.
01:07:45
Speaker
That's how it ends? Wow. What a weird final chapter to this. Which gave me... It's really bizarre. Again, it's like slowly ending one thing, just ending the P3PO, and then going into four different things. Still a giant fight. The villains are working together to try and kill Kane.
01:08:13
Speaker
Detective Raven is still working, news about the Scarlet Spider and the Black Mask, like Scryer with Goop, Black Cat, so that's six different things, actually. Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of stuff. I mean, the idea of having all of these things sort of happening in one comic book,
01:08:40
Speaker
We're not crazy far into the clone saga, but we're pretty far into the clone saga now. I think we've sort of gotten the idea of this is the way that they're approaching stories. So I mean, I guess it makes sense in that regard. It just is not, it doesn't make sense from a fun to read. It makes it very like, it makes it a slog to read. And it's just because like,
01:09:08
Speaker
I don't know. I looked at this and I was like, okay, this is going to be five issues. All right. Some of them will probably be long. Some of them will be short. Like that's fine. But then as like they were by issue three had essentially like peaked with P3PO. I was like, he's about to go. Like he's either going to go at the end of this issue or he's going to go in the beginning of like the fourth issue and
01:09:36
Speaker
And then what does that leave us with like an issue and a half of things? Like, I feel like they're just going to throw things at me. And they did. It seems like they just threw things at you. And I mean, I do have some information here actually from the life of Riley, uh, Glenn Greenberg about Spider-Man Unlimited and its role in
01:10:00
Speaker
the comics at this time, so it might have some, it might give some sort of information on why that is. So he goes, he says, Tom Lyle, who was the writer for this, was promised the opportunity to write when he came over to Marvel to draw Spider-Man. To fulfill that promise, Spider-Man group editor Danny Fingereth gave Lyle the Spider-Man Unlimited title as a regular writing assignment.
01:10:30
Speaker
For those of you who don't remember, Spider-Man Unlimited was a double-sized comic that was published quarterly, sort of like an annual that's published every three months. I could certainly relate to Tom Lyle's desire to write, and he was very enthusiastic about being a part of the creative process.
01:10:47
Speaker
But to be honest, he really wasn't ready for such a big writing assignment. Certainly not in the middle of the clone saga, during which every chapter needed to be a winner. And in that regard, even experienced season writers occasionally stumbled. But Danny felt he had an obligation to Tom Lyle and wanted to keep his promise, which is certainly very admirable.
01:11:11
Speaker
When Bob Budiansky became editor-in-chief of the Spider-Man group, Danny was still in place as group editor, and Bob didn't want to upset the apple cart too much at the beginning, nor did Bob want to undermine Danny's authority as group editor. Despite his own doubts about Tom Lyle's writing, Bob chose not to overturn Danny's decision. Again, this was admirable. Creatively, however, this would prove to be not the best move. So it seems
01:11:39
Speaker
that they kind of, my guess here is they had certain plot points they wanted to use. And all they knew was we have to have Spider-Man Unlimited be part of this because it's coming out and we have to sell it. And Tom going in probably didn't have a whole lot that he wanted to
01:12:05
Speaker
or didn't have a whole lot to add to the Mark of Cain story. So it became an afterthought. And Tom seems to be, again, this is conjecture, probably threw in everything he could that he was interested in writing about into this one story. And it seems like maybe that was a bad idea. And it's a shame because it's like,
01:12:35
Speaker
Yes, you wrote the, almost like the what if statement of the thing you wanted to write for, but it seems like you're not even getting the chance to actually write it out because now it's gonna be delivered through three other comics, you know? Yeah, it's this whole thing from a structural standpoint
01:13:05
Speaker
is a little bit of a mess. I mean, we can go back and rewrite history and say, here's how it should be done. But what we're given is at least an interesting, like the story might not be super interesting, but the behind the scenes aspect of like how this got put together, I think is very interesting. Yeah, I mean, like, and so it's not like my, it's the best thing that's ever been creative.
01:13:35
Speaker
It is still like impressive that it's like, it seems like the clone saga is just one big like insane puzzle that like 20 people had to put together. And like, they did it. They did a thing and it's very impressive that it happened. It's got duct tape all around it, but it's- Yeah. So like, I give it that.
01:14:05
Speaker
It's just, and I think like all of these individual plot points can be really interesting. Again, it's just like, it's so much going on. And it kind of feels almost like to me, did you ever watch Supernatural? I forget, have we talked about Supernatural before? Yeah, I watched up to like season 10 of that show. Same. And I stopped at season 10 because to me,
01:14:31
Speaker
the pattern was always the same of one of the brothers does something and doesn't communicate it because they're worried and, or they think that they're fine and this shit hits the fan and then they fix it and they're like my brothers. And it just kept happening and happening and happening. And I feel like the pattern of like, okay, we're resolving one thing and now we're throwing five things at you.
01:14:59
Speaker
is just like the pattern of Clone Saga. And like, it is, you get tired of it kind of fast. Because- Yes. And I- Yeah. I think that it's evident in the, I don't know if we talked about this on the show or not, but you and I moving outside of
01:15:28
Speaker
Spider-Man have decided to go in very different directions with what we are taking in, uh, media wise. Definitely. Like, again, I'm a huge X-Men fan. I don't want to read any X-Men right now because this is exhausting to me. And I just don't want to look at a superhero comic book right now. Yeah. Like I, well, I told you I finished book one of Hellblazer cause I was like, okay, it's spooky.
01:15:59
Speaker
It's that like 80s punk monster kind of look and it's dark. And there is a overall some kind of resolution and it's one main thing happening with like kind of monster, the weak things happen and it makes sense. And I was like, this is good. And then immediately after that, I went to reading like another like dark thriller, like book.
01:16:26
Speaker
And now I'm reading, outside of Spider-Man, I'm reading a 90s fantasy, Lord of the Rings style kind of book. I'm just anything but men and spandex. The whole thing is just so weird.
01:16:47
Speaker
I mean, I'm not hating it. You need an after dinner mat, an after dinner mint after you read an excessive amount of clone saga. Yeah, again, I'm not hating it. No. It's just exhausting. Yeah, and it's like, I look very fondly back on some of the beginning issues. I really liked those stories. As I think about them in hindsight,
01:17:13
Speaker
Um, and I still really liked the 400th issue. Um, so, and like bird poison was funny. Um, so like there were, there were fond memories I have of the clone saga. And I mean, I, I said it before and I'll say it again, even in this, like, though I, the main reason I didn't like parts of this issue or this
01:17:40
Speaker
storyline is because I just was hyper aware of how I saw it as a writing device. Like, you know, P3PO going insane is again, like I thought the Jekyll Hyde thing was kind of was interesting because I just think that that story in general is interesting. Like I like a good classic.
01:18:06
Speaker
literature spookiness and love that. Um, so I thought it was like a cool homage. I respect it. And I thought it was like a fun, a funky way to go. Um, and if I just was less aware that it was clearly like a loose end, I would have liked it more, but I was just too aware cause I have to be aware cause I do this podcast. So
01:18:32
Speaker
Well, before we wrap all this up, I have one last comment from Glenn Greenberg, which is just glancing over it. I think he agrees with some of what we have already said. So he starts by saying, all the identity switching, multiple versions of costumes, it was reaching fairly ludicrous proportions. As mentioned earlier, this was an ultra confusing storyline, but there was at least some forward momentum.
01:19:02
Speaker
The trouble with Mary Jane's pregnancy was obviously the most compelling subplot.
01:19:07
Speaker
bringing in the black cat and having her interact with Ben, who was pretending to be Peter, was a nice idea. And we saw more of Scryer's mysterious solo activities. But considering the fact that the story was called the Mark of Cain, we really didn't learn all that much about him. We learned nothing about Cain except for the fact that he thinks that Mary Jane is pretty and that
01:19:33
Speaker
he vaguely mentioned that he wants what Peter has. That is literally all that we learned about him. He left no mark. He left less of a mark than he did on Detective Raven's face. If anything, he took away marks from the story. I completely agree with you.
01:19:57
Speaker
Oh boy, I can't wait till we get to the origin of that character just so that there's something to talk about. It's just, he's, it's so frustrating having this far in such an irrelevant character be forced into importance. Yes.
01:20:19
Speaker
Well, with that, I guess, you can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedantic at gmail.com.
01:20:45
Speaker
Please indicate if you'd like your name or question read on the air, and don't forget we still own fuckcomicsgate.com if you'd like to send a donation to the Games and Online Harassment Hotline. We will be back soon with another deep dive into the world of comics, but until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.
01:21:18
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comic Leaf Botanic, where we talk about all of the things that have to do with all of the complicated concepts. Hello, and welcome to Comic Leaf Botanic, where we talk about the complicated concepts of comics and comic book culture. Is that what it is?
01:21:46
Speaker
It's so many C's, I'm aware of that. It's like the most insane alliteration. It's complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic books. Fuck, okay. I love it, okay. I can't see now because I made myself giggle too much and then my eyes got watery. I hit the button but it didn't play. Oh well, I mean, I'm adding an impulse. Okay. I love you, capital L. Yeah. And I love Derek.
01:22:17
Speaker
I tell us that. I might keep that. I'm so sorry that this is going to be a pain to edit.