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Spider-Man Clone Saga: The Mark of Kaine Part 1
53 Plays2 years ago
Corinne takes the reigns to fill Derek in on the events of The Mark of Kaine, where we get our first real look at P-3P0 and whatever his deal is.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Comically Pedantic'
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Derek L. Chase, and joining me on this episode, as always, is the wonderful Corinne Levy. Hi! Oh my god! It's been a minute! For us, at least, I don't know if it's been a minute for the internet or not.
Hosts' Personal Catch-Up
00:00:38
Speaker
Um, no, actually the last episode, it's been about a month since you and I have sat down to record an episode of our show. I think it's been like three weeks since we've recorded someone else's show, which is essentially a month. I don't know. Yeah, it's basically a month. And, um, I actually, we had enough of a backlog of episodes that we are currently caught up. So as long as I can get this edited and put out on time,
00:01:06
Speaker
there will be no break between episodes. All gas, no breaks. Yeah. I love it. Also, I guess because what we record on updated, I got to hear the theme song for the first time in a while and it was pretty cool.
00:01:25
Speaker
because we never hear it before we record. So I only would have had to hear it if Max had our podcast on in the car before I got in. And then I'll hear the guitar and I'm like, what's that? Oh no, it's going to be me. Turn it off. Because I hate hearing my own voice. It's a time. I hope other people enjoy it, but like,
00:01:52
Speaker
I sound so strange to myself. I'll never get used to it. This has been an interesting transition for me because I always hated my voice. And now I've just gotten to a point where it doesn't even like I recognize it as me, but like I don't think of.
00:02:08
Speaker
of it being my voice, if that makes sense. I'm just like, oh yeah, that's a thing that I said, but it sounds like it's being said by someone else. It's more of like the mannerisms in which I speak that bothers me. Like I know, it's more of just, I just, my existence bothers me. It's not the words that come out.
00:02:29
Speaker
I used to like laugh at the end of every sentence for a while, and it's always because I'm nervous, but I try and do it less. My first episode, I've never been recorded before. I would just be like, oh no, sexism is bad to me. And now this podcast is beating me down so I can no longer laugh after sentences.
Corinne's Life Updates
00:02:53
Speaker
I do that still, but I do try to keep it in mind when we're recording certain things that I do that to me sounds fine, but then when I go back and listen to it, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, this sounds terrible. Don't do this ever again. Yeah, it's like my body forgot what punctuation is. Like he, he, he is a period to me. Before we get started, I need to- What's making you he, he, he? What's your price cut? Cutting me off, I see.
00:03:21
Speaker
I actually have a lot. Oh, good. There was so much going well. That's my favorite thing to hear. So I actually was thinking about this before I went to work today. I was like on my way to work and I was thinking, how am I going to answer this question? And I was going to just flat out talk about Scream 6.
00:03:50
Speaker
I went to go see last week, Scream 6, and I was so into this movie. It's not better than the first one, but it is a very good sequel. It might be my favorite sequel.
00:04:09
Speaker
I wanted to go see it. Um, recently I put, I gave Max a couple of options. We could either see cocaine bear scream six, or we could see creams three and he chose all three of those. They look great. He wouldn't even want to go see cocaine bear. And I was like, but it's a bear. How would you not? I love bears. And it's Elizabeth banks and you can't really go wrong with her. I know.
00:04:39
Speaker
So we've learned. We watched Power Rangers for those who don't know. We watched Power Rangers. She's in it. She's great. We talk about it more on a different podcast.
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah. And when that comes out, we'll let you all know I, after I got to work, I, I, I was made aware there was a competition over the weekend for all of the stores in my area. My area is quite large. It encompasses pretty much my entire state and, uh,
00:05:14
Speaker
It turns out, you know, I did a lot of hard work over the weekend. So did my team. It's not obviously not just me. We came in number one, the entire area, which was, uh, blew me away.
Derek's Work Celebration Plans
00:05:28
Speaker
I couldn't believe it. Uh, but I got the email at like, as I got to work and I was like, well, I'll be damned. Feel pretty good about this. That's exciting. Are you going to like celebrate with your crew?
00:05:39
Speaker
We're having, my boss is buying my entire team lunch this upcoming weekend. Oh, good. On both days where we're getting a full thing that way. That way everybody gets it. Right. Nice. And I'm going to talk to them about it not being something like pizza. Cause that's kind of a silly, like it doesn't really feel like a celebration. It feels more like a, it feels more like,
00:06:08
Speaker
a consolation. I get that. There are some foods that are like, you know, when it comes to something big like that, like underwhelming almost. Like, yeah, everybody loves the pizza party, but like everyone loves the pizza party when they like reached the reading goal of like the classroom.
00:06:32
Speaker
Or like, like that isn't appropriate because the audience is, you know, children and tired teachers and they damn it deserve a good cheesy pizza. Um, so like that makes sense. Is it underwhelming if it comes from Domino's? Absolutely. But if it's from like a good pizzeria, you're like, Oh, zah. So I get that, you know, maybe something different.
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, I'm going to be connecting with my boss probably tomorrow to be very honest. And there's so much good food like around where you work that it's like it shouldn't be difficult. No, no, no, no. I'm sure that we'll find something good. Yeah. Because I also like I'm truly amazed at the work that
00:07:23
Speaker
my team has put in. And I think that they deserve something more than some pizza. Absolutely. Hey, shout out to them. Good job, Derek. You guided a team to greatness. Oh, it feels weird to take a compliment. So I should ask- You can't escape it though. Cause if you do, that means we have to stop recording and we can't do that. We do what you talk about.
00:07:51
Speaker
So what was your bright spot for the last week? Or I guess since the last time we talked, since it's been quite a while. It's been a hot minute. Did I see you before or after I went to a cat show? Did I ever tell you I went to a cat show? I don't think you told me about this. Okay, well, one thing. Like cats doing circus stuff?
00:08:14
Speaker
No, almost like the equivalent of a 4-H club competition where they look at the cat's fur, they have it go on a scratching post to look at the expression. Okay, I've seen these. Yes, super funky, super cool. I literally drove from
00:08:37
Speaker
Connecticut to Lancaster, Pennsylvania to go to this cat show with some lovely friends. So I got to do that. And that was a lot of fun because I did that when I basically just moved. So it was like, I was itching to see some friends and they were like, come visit. And I was like, thank God I'm coming.
00:09:00
Speaker
So that was a lot of fun. I've been reading a lot. I always am reading though, so that's not new. And I did get a job. Now that I have moved, I am employed again and it feels so nice to like clock into a place.
00:09:15
Speaker
and then clock out of a place and be like, I did work today. It's so nice. I'm very grateful. My job has very like achievable goals that are like reasonable. And you're probably what like, I feel like other people are like, wow, this sounds like a basic, normal job. And that's exactly what I want.
00:09:38
Speaker
I wanted a job that was not unhealthy for me and I found it. It's long, like the days are long, but I can't complain because it's like, it's a good adult job that makes sense for me. And I'm very happy with that. So. That's good. I can't handle not having something to do. I took a week off and I planned something to do literally every single day.
00:10:07
Speaker
because otherwise I get depressed. I can't, I need something to do.
00:10:12
Speaker
I think I did get depressed, to be honest. It was like, so, I mean, it's March now. We moved in February. I was finding, I was looking for a job all of February and like, I am aware that I'm very lucky that it's like, you know, I think I found this, I shook hands on this job end of last week. I had done like a trial week of work.
00:10:40
Speaker
at the place because it is very laborious. So they want to make sure that I can handle it and stuff. And I need to make sure I can handle it. And I can. So we shook on it then. So beginning of March, essentially,
Comic Book Anecdotes
00:10:53
Speaker
I took on this job. And I'm very fortunate that it was so, in retrospect, short of a time to be unemployed.
00:11:04
Speaker
but I was not doing well in February at all. I was like, I'm not going anywhere. I don't know where I'm going to be going. It was no bueno, but we're good now. I have a paycheck. I'm going on hikes. It's fine. I needed to start doing more of like actually getting out and doing stuff, but like my job is very far away from where I actually live.
00:11:33
Speaker
And- There is a comic book shop in- I went there. So for those who- And I know this because I used to work in that town.
00:11:44
Speaker
For those who aren't fully aware of sort of our day-to-day lives, which I would assume are most of the people who are listening, I caught COVID right around the time that we recorded an episode for the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. And literally the day that we recorded, I went to that comic book store that you were referring to.
00:12:14
Speaker
Um, it is, I don't want to, I don't want to name names because I was unimpressed. They have a lot of stuff there. Uh, but to the point that it is very disorganized, uh, I spent probably 45 minutes in that store walking around looking at stuff because there are things everywhere. And I ended up things as in like. Merch other than books.
00:12:42
Speaker
And in addition to the books, there was just everything in this place. And the books...
00:12:50
Speaker
there are several sections that you can look at and some of them are like what you would normally think of as the new releases rack. They're not all new releases. I, in fact, I bought a Power Rangers comic book while I was there and I didn't really look at the title or anything. I just saw the cover and I was like, that's pretty cool. It's a number one.
Spider-Man's Clone Saga
00:13:10
Speaker
I will just buy it and that'll be that. I ended up buying a Power Rangers comic book that I already have under the
00:13:20
Speaker
I mean, it's fine. I like this. It's a variant cover. Oh, okay. I enjoyed the variant and that's kind of why I bought it and it was a number one. So it was kind of interesting. Even though it, what it actually was, was like a single issue that came out as its own thing, right? Okay. So it was like a little one shot.
00:13:40
Speaker
Right, but so after I got it and I opened it up, I was like, wait, I actually know this book because I bought it before and it's like months old. But it was on the new releases rack. Right. So, I mean, it was an interesting experience. I probably would never go back into that comic book store. I didn't hate it. It was just, it's very overwhelming and I don't do well with that level of disorganization.
00:14:10
Speaker
No, that's just not the kind of shopper that you are. Like, that's okay. It's like some people can't shop at TJ Maxx because they don't want to go through the wrap. And it's like, all right, snoozy Liz, sweaters are mine. Well, that's fair. This wasn't your style. But that being said, we are here to talk about Spider-Man and in particular, the clone saga.
00:14:38
Speaker
Uh, which, um, I honestly, I don't even know what to expect from this because the last issue sort of ended with Mary Jane, uh, meeting with another Peter and then that was kind of how it ended. So this kind of storyline is five issues.
00:15:02
Speaker
And it really felt like it was five issues. We're doing the Mark of Cain. Yes, this is going to be the storyline of Mark of Cain. It starts with Web of Spider-Man number 124. And this issue is called Walls.
00:15:22
Speaker
Uh, I found the, the titles of these to be very silly, by the way, but it's fine. I guess it's a comic book. I guess it's fine if it's silly. It's okay. But yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a long journey, but it is a straightforward journey fairly. Um, so it's gonna be fine. Anyway, web of Spider-Man 124. You got your writer, Terry Cavanaugh, your penciler, Steve Butler. Uh, anchor is Randy.
00:15:52
Speaker
Emberlin, and then colorist Kevin Tinsley, letterer Steve Dutrow, and your editors are Eric Fain and Danny Fingeroth, and I have successfully listed off all of the credits of this issue. I haven't forgotten one, and I'm gonna be honest, everyone, I don't think I forgot a single one in this episode, and if I did, I'm sorry, but I don't think I did, so.
00:16:22
Speaker
Go me, anyway. So this one is gonna start off with original Peter Parker. He is at a press release and he's with his lawyer, which is Brandt Buckner, who I think we have mentioned before, but he's a very expensive defense attorney.
00:16:47
Speaker
Jay Jonah Jameson is personally paying, I remember this from my story. Yes, he is paying for him. But no one, people don't really know that. Yeah, no, it's a secret. Jay Jonah Jameson is trying to help Peter, but he doesn't want anyone to know that he's helping Peter.
00:17:08
Speaker
Correct. So we're basically at like a press conference with the public. Uh, reporters are there like, you know, your Ken Ellis and your Betty Brant. Those are commonly reoccurring people. And Peter Parker is in front of all these people in chains. He's pretty stressed out. Um, also like all the detectives involved with his arrest are there as well. It's kind of just the typical, like, we've caught this man. He's going to go on trial. And then people ask a bunch of questions.
00:17:39
Speaker
Um, this scene is pretty much just a purpose to kind of get into a look into each character's head. Um, Detective Raven is like, basically, he's kind of like, I got to keep looking because now I've got this new evidence on my face. If you don't remember, he got.
00:18:02
Speaker
Cain on his face. He got Cain faced. He's not dead. He used his like weird magic powers, yeah, to like, I guess like burn his face. I don't know what it does. It just, I think it's a burn. At least for this sake it is. Otherwise it kills you. So maybe it's like acid, I don't know.
00:18:31
Speaker
They don't explain it. Knowing Cain's origin, which I know you don't at the moment, I have a guess as to how it works, but I don't think they ever actually say how it works in the comics.
00:18:56
Speaker
I just want to know what it is. I'm at this point, the bare minimum of understanding Cain is what I need. The bare minimum. So we do, coming up, we will get into it, but I mean, I think once we get into his origin, I'll kind of explain my thoughts on how his powers work. That's fair. Okay. A Cain master class. We're about it. But anyway, that's what, that's what detective Raven is thinking. He's just like,
00:19:25
Speaker
Ah, I gotta get this shit figured out. And Peter is incredibly upset because he's obviously, it really, thankfully it does remind you how quickly like Aunt May died and then he was arrested. And like they are just not letting him process that. And he is aware and he is sad. So he's still grieving about Aunt May. He's very worried about his wife, Mary Jane.
00:19:54
Speaker
because she's pregnant. And he's like, Oh my God, my wife is pregnant and I'm in jail. And on top of all of this, he's just because he's seeing all this press and everything. He's like very aware of like, my life is literally never going to be the same. After this whole experience, whether I'm found guilty and I'm arrested or I'm found not guilty, I still have this experience and
00:20:20
Speaker
people have seen me like this now and that's pretty poopy. So that is kind of how it opens up, pretty bleak. There we go. I think it's kind of interesting that he keeps saying, or I guess he's thinking that his life will never be the same because then I, in my mind, I start laughing because in like 10 years, it's as though that never happened.
00:20:50
Speaker
I know. It's amazing what 10 years can do. Just forget all of your past traumas. What a time. Or just have them erased from your life entirely. Who knows? But we go next to Mary Jane, who's essentially like feeling the same way. She's just pretty overwhelmed and upset because she's worried about her husband and she's worried about her pregnancy experience.
00:21:16
Speaker
She is currently at Dr. Seaward's lab with Ben Riley and the doctor himself. And they're just running tests on her pregnancy to see if everything is going like as it should. She's in the first trimester. So it's like early, but like, you know, still pretty like getting developed. So they want to just make sure everything's going good.
00:21:46
Speaker
I don't really know much about pregnancy, but it seems like that would be when you would have a lot of questions. Yeah, well, because like the first trimester is just like, you want to make sure that things are starting off well. And like, it seems like Dr. Seward and Ben Riley also are testing to see because Peter Parker is obviously Spider-Man and he has radioactive spider shit in his
00:22:15
Speaker
radioactive sperm. It could. We don't know. Um, that's what we're trying to figure out. And it's, it's kind of like you feel bad for Mary Jane because it's like, she obviously like understands the relationship that she has and that she's been in and like,
00:22:35
Speaker
the complications of being pregnant in general. But it's like, sometimes you just want a normal thing, like a normal doctor, but she's got to go to freaking Dr. Seaworth, who is like, not the most like, he's not a doctor that you want at your bedside, you know? He's kind of, he's a fine guy, but he's not very like,
00:22:59
Speaker
How are you feeling? He's like, all right, IVs, let's go. So, you know, she's a bit. I think it's interesting to like with Dr. Seaword trainer,
00:23:13
Speaker
Yes. He is someone who has like multiple laboratories in multiple states. It's just another one of the like, I don't think that you can do that without being kind of shitty. It's sort of like the whole, you can't be a billionaire without like hurting someone. He's straight logos and no pathos. Right.
00:23:40
Speaker
You know? But she's still obviously very appreciative that she does have these resources and people willing to help her in such a shitty situation.
00:23:50
Speaker
And so you get a glimpse in her mind, um, of what's going on. And of course, like at the end of the scene, you see that Kane is watching from afar and he knows that like, I guess he now knows that Mary Jane will die with child. And it's like, Jesus Christ. Has that been something that has,
00:24:16
Speaker
been revealed before? It's always been the thing where, like, Cain will have some sort of migraine and vision that is like, Mary Jane will die. She will die. And now it's just gotten a tad more specific. Now she will die with child. So she allegedly will die while being pregnant, according to Cain. But Cain is also not very reliable. Shit could change. That's pretty much how that scene ends.
00:24:45
Speaker
And then we go to P3PO. Our lovely third Peter Parker that showed up out of nowhere a couple issues ago is just at Aunt May's place. So reminiscing, he's like reminiscing and like grieving over her death. But like this confused me because
00:25:13
Speaker
He was around when she died. He was an existing character when she died. And they didn't look on him at all then. It's only now that he's dealing with her death. And I'm like, that just seems sus, because it's like they never made it a thing that he remembered all of these things
00:25:43
Speaker
like Ben Riley did until maybe like some details like recently, but like Aunt May dying was a present thing. So it's like, how does he know that she's dead? Does this make sense? Does my confusion make sense? Yes, because I'm also confused and I think it might have to do with the breakdown between the writers, between the last story arc and this one.
00:26:11
Speaker
I think like it's also like Ben Riley knowing Aunt May died makes sense to me because he already was aware of Spidey senses. He had memories of Aunt May and he did develop his own life and personality and individuality. But it was very clear that he still had some strong bonds to her
00:26:41
Speaker
because sometimes you just can't fight feelings that you have towards some form of maternal figure. I get that. And again, he knows what the feeling of a spidey sense is. He knows that something is going wrong. So of course he'd want to go check that out because he knew the context of Aunt May. But with this P-3PO,
00:27:08
Speaker
He like, out of nowhere, just involuntarily fought a bunch of robbers and he was like, what the fuck is this? So like, does this make sense? Like there's one clone, yes, who has, understands all the context of where he came from.
00:27:27
Speaker
and what things mean in his body and in his mind. But now there's this other one who, as far as I understood, didn't understand the complexity of their powers, still didn't know who they were, and maybe heard the term Peter Parker once and slowly started to remember maybe the power and responsibility kind of origin story. But how would you have known
00:27:54
Speaker
It just, it felt weird. I got the impression in the last story arc and this is where it gets, so the last story arc, like it ran through so many plot points. This is a five issue story that you're doing. Mine was two.
00:28:12
Speaker
And there was so much that went on. Right. So my impression was that P3PO at the end fully understood who he was, like came to the realization at the very least I am Peter Parker. And most likely also remembers that he is Spider-Man, right? Like he's all of this is sort of coming together.
00:28:37
Speaker
And the thing that's weird for me is the last story arc sort of ends with what I assumed was I miss, maybe it's been now, but like what it looked like was P3PO showing up to talk to Mary Jane. So that was Ben showing up to talk to Mary Jane and we're going to get to that literally. We're going to get to that right now though. I promise you. So, um,
00:29:07
Speaker
Yes, because P3PO, he's reminiscing. He becomes violently angry. That was another really weird thing. I was like, damn, you actually maybe just figured out this person died and you are viciously angry. He's breaking shit. He's angry about not knowing how long he's, quote unquote, been gone and who's done this to him. And he runs away from the scene.
00:29:36
Speaker
like and he's allegedly just like going around searching for the person who like stole his face because he's very convinced that he is the real Peter Parker at this point. He's like I am the one who is taking over who took over my life for the past god knows how long and like he's mad. So like that's a thing and he's gonna come back at the end of this issue. We're going back
00:30:05
Speaker
to marry Jane and she decides that she wants to go home and she wants to go on a walk by herself. She wants to walk home alone and Ben Riley is like, I should go with her. But she wants to be alone and Dr. Trainor is just like, no, we have things to do. You're going to stay here.
00:30:26
Speaker
So that's like a time. And then essentially as she's walking home, she gets taken by Cain. Cain just like kind of pops out of the sewer grate and is like, gotcha. And then he drags her down like it style. So we have Cain is now part-time Pennywise, the clown. He lives in the sewer. Interesting.
00:30:51
Speaker
and he takes women. So he grabs ahold of her. She, like, I guess there was just a really strong hose or a pipe or something in the sewer and just like blasts him with a water pipe and runs away. She gets out of the sewer and the issue ends with her running into P3PO. Gotcha.
00:31:16
Speaker
And so that's why I say like, I'm 90% sure that in the issue that you read, she meets up with Ben Riley. So, cause she's pretty like shocked. She's like, what the hell? There are like some small side things that happened that I've just like, it's like,
00:31:32
Speaker
whatever. Like one of the editors at the Daily Bugle talks to J Jonah Jameson being like, I know you're paying for Peter Parker's lawyer. And also like, are we going to publish the story that we wrote about the press conference and triple J's like Barry. Uh, Joe Robbie Robertson. Is he a black guy? Yes. Yeah. That checks out.
00:32:00
Speaker
Uh, I, he is in most iterations of the daily bugle. I, I like him more than I like J Jonah James. J Jameson is an interesting character, but I think, um, uh, Robbie tends to be the nicer character. And so I tend to like him a lot more.
00:32:21
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was fine. It was basically, it was literally just a conversation of them debating on whether or not they should publish the story about Peter Parker and J. Jonah Jameson doesn't want to. And someone also calls him out for like paying for the lawyer and they end up burying the story. It's because they don't want to be a part of like tearing down Peter Parker is essentially
00:32:51
Speaker
the Triple J motive. There's also another like little thing that will come into play later where Detective Raven is grabbed by Stunner, who if you don't remember, because I didn't briefly, but it was Doc Ock's girlfriend before he died. She's like super tough and cool and stuff.
00:33:15
Speaker
And so basically she grabs ahold of Detective Raven and is like, Hey, we both know Peter Parker didn't kill Dr. Octopus. So why don't we buddy cop this out? And, uh, that's the conversation. So those are the two little side things that happened, but pretty much that is Web Spider-Man 124. I have a little bit to add to the stunner conversation. Yeah.
00:33:44
Speaker
So in going through Life of Riley with Glenn Greenberg's comments, he actually had something to say about Stoner. He said, as I recall, Stoner was created by Tom DeFalco. She was an interesting character since she obviously had very strong ties to Dr. Octopus, even though we had never seen her before. There was clearly a lot of backstory to her, and I was curious to see how Tom Dee was going to retroactively work
00:34:09
Speaker
her into Ox history. Tom Dee definitely had a lot of ideas for Stunner, which he would reveal over time. In fact, an entire storyline would later be done that would be the culmination of all the groundwork laid down for her throughout the Clone Saga and beyond. So her introduction was like only a few story arcs ago. Right.
00:34:36
Speaker
She actually does seem like a character that they have some idea about, at least from what I have read. Like she doesn't seem like a character that's just like, here's a mystery for no reason. And we're just going to keep hammering home all of these random mysteries. It really does feel like she was a fully fledged character put down and they're going to slowly reveal. It's very different from Kane.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yes. I liked the scene. It was small, but I also liked it because it made sense. I honestly, I genuinely still feel like if they nixed a couple things, because obviously it's very clear that they came with the intention of now continuing it after.
00:35:29
Speaker
the 400th issue of Amazing Spider-Man, but it could have ended there. It could have, if some things were changed. Yeah, just small tweaks. Yeah, but I like how they've brought Stunner back from Dr. Octopus dying, because it does make sense. She has a very valid motive and
00:35:58
Speaker
She is kind of carrying out Doc Ock's wishes of saving Peter Parker, essentially. And so I think it's cool. I think it makes sense. And I like it because actually for the rest of this, in the future of this Mark of Cain little bit, she comes back and you get to see work being done. So that's one thing I liked overall.
00:36:28
Speaker
Uh, so far I'm on board. I like what's happening. I think it's fine. It was, um, it was definitely like a feelings issue. Like, uh, everyone's feeling the feelings and we're going to hear them. And I don't mind that. Um, but yeah, now we're,
00:36:49
Speaker
We're gonna pick it up with Spiderman 58. It's called Spider. Spider, who's got the spider? What is that? Actually, no, just kidding. I scrolled too fast. We're actually going to Part Dos, which is the Amazing Spiderman number 401, Down in the Darkness. Instead of Down with the Sickness, it's Down in the Darkness.
00:37:13
Speaker
Writer is JMD Matias. Penciler is Mark Bagley. Inker is Larry Maustad. I hope I said that right. I'm so sorry, Larry. Colorists are Bob Sharon and Salvador Mancha. Letters are Bill Oakley. And the editor is Jani Fingeroff. And I still didn't miss a fucking credit. It is literally gonna start two seconds.
00:37:41
Speaker
after where we finished part Uno. Keith Rapio is frantically yelling at Mary Jane being like, I'm the real Peter Parker and the one that you're married to right now stole my life. And I've been in prison for five years and Mary Jane is really confused because only a couple of days ago she actually met Ben Riley. She did not know that there was potentially a third clone. Seems like not really any of them did.
00:38:11
Speaker
that much, so she's really confused. To be fair, I don't think the writers really knew either. Yeah, I don't think anyone knew. It feels very obvious, but what a time. So yeah, she's confused, but she's honestly far more concerned with the fact that Kane is still literally chasing her, and she is losing ground by having this conversation with the third Peter Parker.
00:38:35
Speaker
So she basically is like, okay, that's cool. I don't have time to deal with this right now. And if you're the real Peter Parker, then you should just, you should beat up Kane over there so I can get away. And then she just starts booking it. And P3PO is basically like, anything for you, wife, I'm gonna kick his ass. And then Kane catches up and
00:39:04
Speaker
P-3PO gets the ship beat out of him. Very quickly. If I'm thinking of P-3PO's personal history, if he was cloned at the same time Ben Riley was, which it seems like he was,
00:39:24
Speaker
He has no personal history with Mary Jane other than they kind of dated for a very brief, I think they went on a date maybe and then they were good friends. But like, it's weird that he would be like, this is my wife and I must protect her. I mean, yes, he should be protecting people who need protecting, but like to have this devotion to,
00:39:52
Speaker
a relationship that he never experienced. Yes. But also. I don't know, because to me. Like. There's obviously moments where it's like Ben Riley is aware that like Mary Jane's a great lady and like they have some nice moments and he's like, I understand why Peter Parker is married to her.
00:40:21
Speaker
And, but I feel like because he is so sound of body and mind at this point, he's having like very good reactions to their relationship. I think if I woke up from a coma with no context and found a person that I was in a relationship with,
00:40:51
Speaker
like married to someone with a face like mine and I didn't know that I was a clone, probably would be like, yeah, that's my husband because it's my life and you took it from me. I can see that reasoning. Because it seems like, I don't know how long they've actually been married, but five years seems to be like the number for clones being created.
00:41:20
Speaker
So arguably any of them would have just been dating her five years ago. And then maybe the following year got married. I mean, something like that checks out. The timeline is very confusing anyway, when it comes to how long things happened. Exactly. So it's like, I don't really know, like,
00:41:47
Speaker
what's going on with this this third one's truly a time but he's just like determined he's like I'm gonna prove I'm the real Peter Parker I'm gonna save and then he gets the shit kicked out of him as I said but he picks himself back up and he heads back on the hunt to protect Mary Jane so I don't know he's kind of he's really just unhinged like if you look at photos of his
00:42:14
Speaker
It sounds like kind of fun. Yeah, it's really weird. So now we're going to go to Peter Parker in original Peter Parker in his jail cell. I refer to him as the original because he is the one who started out as the original in this series. So because it's starting to get confusing now that there's three of them actively like doing things. So OG Peter Parker in his jail cell. Um, he's hoping things will turn out okay.
00:42:42
Speaker
Suddenly, Chakra just shows up in his cell and basically is delivering a message from Judas Traveler. She tells him that Cain is after his wife, and then she just leaves. Peter goes to make a phone call.
00:43:03
Speaker
because he's like, that's some scary news. I should go check on my wife. And it makes, okay. So he picks up the phone in the comic and then it goes to a cool transition where essentially like Ben Riley is also on the phone and I watched it half. I like read it and I was like, oh, that's a cool transition. Fun. I just wanted to make that note that I thought it was creative. Good job. Basically, he was on the phone with Mary Jane.
00:43:33
Speaker
Uh, Mary Jane basically just sums up what happened in the past 10 minutes to her and then she abruptly hangs up on him because she's like, I gotta keep running. Yeah. Um, she's pretty pissed cause she's like, I'm tired of being victimized and like pushed around by men in tights.
00:43:52
Speaker
Um, and she's gonna, she's like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go and try and take control of my situation. Cause it's like, honestly, you go lady. That is a very reasonable choice for you. You're pregnant, there's clones and a man tried to drag you down a sewer. I too would be pretty bad. Um,
00:44:11
Speaker
I consistently like Mary Jane, especially in this era of Spider-Man comics, where she is, like, she doesn't always make the right decision, but I at least always understand her decisions. Yes. I couldn't agree more. Her and Aunt May, top tier, top tier characters, and Ben Riley. Ben Riley's pretty great. Anyway, Meg does Spider-Man.
00:44:37
Speaker
So she goes off and now we are back to OG Peter Parker in prison. He decides that he is going to sneak out because he is willing to risk his life and reputation to save his wife. And if someone tells him mysteriously that his wife is going to be killed, he's like, well, shit, I got to fix that. So as soon as he gets outside of the prison, he is stopped by Judas Traveler.
00:45:06
Speaker
is a big scary thunderstorm and he's all there in cape and shit. Judas says that he'll help Parker by creating the illusion of him in his cell, another convenient superpower apparently, while Chakra helps him get to where he needs to go via the astral plane, which I guess is how Chakra works.
00:45:31
Speaker
I guess that's their power. But wait, if it's the astral, so I don't understand how that works at all, because that would seem like that would be just your spirit, not your body. You know, I don't know either. But maybe it's one of those things where it's like, beam me up, Scotty, and then you're just, you're all there.
00:45:57
Speaker
I guess when it comes to Judas Traveler and his group, you just kinda have to- Convenience is key with them, you know? Yeah, you just have to go with it. I was actually gonna say, he should have a superhero name that is something more like just convenience man. Should be 7-11. Spelled out. 7-11. Oof. Foolish. This seems like a- 7 Judas 11. I can see this being a thing.
00:46:25
Speaker
You know, he's just like an old man. And like with his like, he's not like the shovel. Like he's the clean cut old man. He's a bedazzled cowboy. He is a bedazzled cowboy that I would a hundred percent expect to see at the slushie machine. So his new name is 7-11. I will forget that in like five minutes, but. I'm honestly surprised we remembered P3P.
00:46:52
Speaker
It's because it's the quickest way to write my notes, so I always just write P3P, because I'm garbage. And I write back those vitamins. So Peter agrees to this, and so him and Chakra are off to go where they need to go.
00:47:15
Speaker
Scryer, who I did not know was here at all, is now here. And him and Judas just have a really confusing conversation about knowing each other for a long time, but not knowing each other. And it was really dumb. But I mentioned that it happened, so I can't get in trouble.
00:47:39
Speaker
We now go back to Mary Jane. She truly has taken matters in her own hands. She has pulled out her gun from her closet that she's just been hiding for a long time for the day that she felt like she needed to use it. And now she feels like she needs to carry it. And she's very sad about that. I'm sad for her. You really like empathize with her in this like story run because she has just truly been like, I have had enough
00:48:07
Speaker
I hate that I have to like use this tool to protect myself so she's kind of monologuing about that and then suddenly someone approaches from behind her she's like in her bedroom like at the foot of like her closet essentially. She turns around and it's it's spider-man it's.
00:48:26
Speaker
like, spider suit and all, but she's talking to Spider-Man and, like, after a minute of talking, she realizes that it's piece-free PO. And he's put on Peter's spider suit.
00:48:42
Speaker
And she's just like, Oh my God, it was so unsettling to read. It was, I was honestly like, I was creeped out like, and his face in like express, it was so creepy. Cause he's just like, we're together now. And it's like, no, um,
00:49:05
Speaker
So she's like mad freaked out and she shoots the gun in his direction to like scare him away. Or is it another reason? Because now Kane is behind P3PO and knocks him out again.
00:49:21
Speaker
So it's just like this poor woman is being like terrified over and over again. Kane gets the gun out of Mary Jane's hands and like knocks her out as well and kidnaps her
Impact of Market Pressures on Comics
00:49:33
Speaker
again. She wakes up in his sewer lair. He's got a lair in a sewer.
00:49:39
Speaker
of pipes. And then essentially the issue ends with Ben Parker showing up at Mary Jane's house because he just had that chaotic phone call and wants to be wants to check up on her and then he just sees like P-3PO knocked out on the ground and then immediately after he sees that OG Peter Parker comes out of the astral plane and it's a little bit of the like pointing
00:50:07
Speaker
The Spider-Man meme where they're all pointing at each other. Yes, kind of. This is getting weird. It's getting weird and it's getting a lot. Was that the end of the issue? That they all show up in the same house? Yeah, that was the end. Basically, my thoughts on this was I thought it was fine.
00:50:34
Speaker
really like Mary Jane and I'm really sad for how she's doing. And I was really surprised by the whole really creepy tone, almost like scary 90s thriller of P3PO. He's like getting, he's getting creepy. And I didn't expect that from the clone saga.
00:51:01
Speaker
but they're doing it. And it's like, wow, you guys can do scary. And I don't know why they didn't do that with Cain instead. I mean, give him literally anything that isn't just, he's a guy that stares at things and is a mystery. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's a weird decision for them to make.
00:51:27
Speaker
And it's just, it's very, they're really putting P3PO right now, like in the forefront of this storyline, which I found to just be a weird decision because I didn't really give a shit about him before. And now I have to like watch him be insane, which it's like, I am the fan of thriller novels and things like that. So it's like, it kind of, it, it pokes that part of my brain, but overall I'm like, this is such a weird tonal shift.
00:51:56
Speaker
what's happening. I think you and I both kind of like horror, I think. Yes. And so there's this weird, I think both of us can get behind a horror superhero story, but this, it's weird for it to take such a turn now. It doesn't, there doesn't seem to be a big buildup to it. It's weird and it's also,
00:52:26
Speaker
Yeah, and it's also like, it just, I feel like we literally just had a conflict where like, people didn't know who the real Peter Parker was. And I know that like, that's what, I mean, like, I guess it's like, how could I not have known for it to happen again? I guess like I knew it would happen again, because it's the clone saga. But like,
00:52:53
Speaker
It just happened. I actually have some notes from, again, from Life of Riley with Glenn Greenberg about this particular thing. He starts by saying, okay, at this point, the Spider-Man books were in danger of becoming like that old Marx Brothers movie where everyone was running around dressed like Groucho. Now that the three Peters were in the same place at the same time, there needed to be some sense of resolution to all of this.
00:53:22
Speaker
The clone saga was still very engaging and compelling, but from a story point of view, things really should have been headed for the ultimate conclusion, which I think you and I have been kind of saying that for a little bit now. It does feel like they were building to something and then they just keep going. And Greenberg says, as an aside, it should be noted that the sales on the Spider-Man books at this time were phenomenal.
00:53:49
Speaker
I feel the need to point at that, despite popular belief, the Clone Saga significantly boosted sales on the Spider-Man books. At a time when the comics industry was starting to head downward, with sales dropping across the board on every title, the Spider-Man line was bucking the trend, with sales holding steady and even increasing each month. Of course the downside to it was that everyone on the business side of Marvel was pushing us to keep the Clone Saga going for as long as possible.
00:54:17
Speaker
to milk it for all that it was worth. Looking back, I can understand their position. The Clone Saga was one of the very few things that was actually working in the comics industry at that time, and there was a great deal of fear that the sales would drop like an anvil once the story was over. But of course, unnaturally prolonging what was, at its essence, a very finite storyline was extremely short-term thinking and the kind of approach that could hurt the entire franchise.
00:54:46
Speaker
We, the editors and the writers knew this, but the sales and marketing department wielded a lot of power and influence at that time. And we had little choice but to follow their lead, which is why Marvel was doing so many gimmick covers and alpha issues and Omega issues and multi-part crossover storylines. And well, you get the idea. And I think that is very evident with where we are in the Clone Saga. And I can also say as someone who reads comics from this time,
00:55:17
Speaker
Oh boy, there was so much going on where they were pushing in what they thought sold and not what made a good story. Yes, I can taste the milk that is being milked. And it's milky. Oh boy. What a sentence that was.
00:55:45
Speaker
As someone who read a lot of, so I'm not like a comic historian by any stretch of the imagination. I know a lot about very weird, trivial things. But I can tell you, there's an episode that I want to write for us to go over that would explain why the sales department has such a stranglehold on editorial.
00:56:15
Speaker
essentially at the time. And it's really, I mean, I could sum it up for, I mean, we could get into the details in an actual episode, but sum it up for you right now. It's essentially the beanie baby market. That's what the comic industry is at this time. People are buying it, thinking it's going to sell a lot. And the sales department says, okay, how do we sell more? And it's really similar to how, like you'll see, um,
00:56:45
Speaker
agitators online. I'm going to pick on the daily wire with like you get Ben Shapiro and those assholes over at the daily wire. Their shows are incredibly boring, but what they do is like, let's say their show is an hour long. They have five minutes of it, which is incredibly inflammatory, very like people want to see that part of it. And that can be edited down to a Tik TOK or an Instagram reel.
00:57:14
Speaker
something like that. And that is what gets them all of the attention. It's short-term thinking, but it does work to an extent. And that's what the comic book industry was doing. They wanted as much attention on a short-sighted thing as possible. Right.
00:57:36
Speaker
I mean, it's definitely a strategy. It's just, I think. It's a shitty strategy. Yes. I agree. And because when it comes to just something like books and literature, story-based media, like it is important to market it, but you're marketing a story.
00:58:06
Speaker
So you need your product, your story to be good, you know? Yes. Like we'll go to Starbucks. Starbucks is marketing coffee, but it's a large brand. They want their coffee to be consistent from store to store. So that way it's like when you go get a caramel macchiato from Cleveland, it's going to be the same in Toronto.
00:58:36
Speaker
I realized those are two different countries, cities, but you know what I mean. I have something that might actually work a little bit better there. And it's only, it's another thing that we have. Oh, no, wait. Okay. TGI Fridays. TGI Fridays is a big old chain in America. What they do
00:58:59
Speaker
And bar drinks, cocktails, or like a big thing with TGI Fridays. You go, you have some apps, you have some drinks, it's a time. Every bartender that works for a TGI Fridays has to be specifically trained in order to make their drinks their way, their shots have to be poor. They do poor tests all the time, so that way,
00:59:28
Speaker
You could work at any TGI Fridays ever. If you were on vacation in Hawaii and you live in like Utah or whatever, like you could pick up a shift in Honolulu, TGI Fridays.
00:59:44
Speaker
because of how just like, I'm not saying, you know. Because it's so consistent on how it's run. Yeah, because they care about the product and like, I mean, who doesn't in America know what a TGI Fridays is? It's how much it's advertised. They gave a shit about both. I'm not saying it's like the best thing in the world, but like it's pretty impressive that your cosmopolitan can taste the same in 50 different states.
Climactic Rescue of Mary Jane
01:00:11
Speaker
Pretty cool. Right.
01:00:13
Speaker
The only thing that I was going to mention earlier was McDonald's. There was a point early in McDonald's history where the French fries tasted different in different states because they were using different potatoes from different climates, blah, blah, blah. And what they learned was there was a way for them to extract some of the moisture from the French fries.
01:00:36
Speaker
They could literally get it down to these should all be the same consistency so that when you fry them in a particular area, they are going to taste the same. And that's literally like one of the most advertised fast food places ever. Again, you have to care about both things. The quality and the sales.
01:01:00
Speaker
You have to care about selling and the product for sure. And I understand that they're caring about selling these comics, but the quality is very wavery. And you can tell by like how much is put in, like we just spent so much time just talking about Web of Spider-Man 124. Granted, there was like a couple of little like sides, but like,
01:01:26
Speaker
Spent a good amount of time on it. And we just freaking zipped through 401. And now we're going to even, I think even quicker zip through Spider-Man 58. And this one is Spider-Spider Who's Got the Spider. It's written by Howard Mackey. Penciler's Tom Lyle anchor is Scott Hanna. The colorist is Kevin Tinsley. And the letter is Richard Starkings. And the editor is Dandy Fingereth.
01:01:59
Speaker
Okay, that's like a personal goal of mine is to be better at that because I'm I'm bad anyway Okay, again, it's gonna pick up literally right where it left off three spiders really confused at each other the two Peters so p3po and original Peter Parker straight out of Rikers they get into an argument about who's the real the real boy for
01:02:24
Speaker
and who's the Pinocchio. It almost gets physical mainly because of P3PO, but Ben breaks it up because he's like, we don't have time for this. People are in trouble. P3PO passes out from his injuries from Kane, Peter, OG Peter Parker,
01:02:43
Speaker
Basically he, because somebody else is wearing his, somebody else has been eating my porridge. She's gotta take a different porridge from the cupboard. So he puts on the black mask. He has a black spider suit, I guess. Yeah, from the, after he had the symbiote suit, he created a cloth version of the same thing.
01:03:14
Speaker
that. Didn't know that. He's wearing that mask as his disguise. So that is how in the comics you know who is who. Ben Riley is in Scarlet Spider attire. Original Peter Parker is wearing his black mask and like a jacket and basically a gray sweatsuit. And then P3PO is in OG Spider-Man costume. So now
01:03:41
Speaker
Peter Parker and Ben Riley are gonna go and look for Mary Jane. Basically a lot of this dialogue between Peter and Ben is Peter just wanting to go save his wife and then he's gotta go. And he's like, I'm gonna just do this on my own. Cause he is really annoyed that P3PO is like mucking shit up.
01:04:09
Speaker
And Ben Riley is very much like the voice of reason being like, no, I'm going to come with you because I have experience fighting Cain. I understand and I emphasize that you're like worried about your wife, but I am the only one that has legitimately fought Cain. So you need me to come with you because it's hard and you can't do it alone. So there we go. That's like a lot of dialogue that happens.
01:04:39
Speaker
because it was kind of a debate, like who's gonna look after the third Peter? No one's gonna look after him, it's not worth it, because eventually it's gonna get back up and start being weird again. But Ben Riley, Peter Parker, original one, are on the hunt for the wife.
01:04:56
Speaker
Mary Jane is still trapped in a sewer with Kane who we really like to call Kane just the person that watches things. That's literally all he's doing right now. He's literally like owling on a rock just like watching Mary Jane. He's not doing anything with her, he's just watching her in a sewer. It's weird. He has internal thoughts being like,
01:05:21
Speaker
She's pretty and alludes to the fact that he wants what Peter wants, which is really cryptic and just alludes more to the fact that he's... It's super creepy. Super weird. I feel so bad for this woman. She goes to leave. She's like, he's just standing there. I'm just going to try and leave.
01:05:43
Speaker
but Cain threatens her. He has another migraine in front of her, just being like, Mary Jane will die soon. She, I don't know if this had been mentioned before, but she has like a little spider tracker button, like it's a little like call, it sends out a signal that only the spider can hear. I don't know if that was ever mentioned in this storyline or even if it was brought up before, but it makes sense.
01:06:11
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think it was like explicitly meant, but that's like a tool that she has. She was really debating on using it for a while because she's like, my husband's in prison. What good is this going to do? And she's kind of like, I don't, I'm just doing it. Cause like, I have no other options and I need to get out of here. I don't have a gun anymore. So she,
01:06:33
Speaker
hits that little like tool and both Peter Parker and Scarlet Spider get the signal and they follow it. This is when we find out P-3PO is trailing behind them. He seems like still kind of brain damaged though, or he's just really creepy, hard to tell.
01:06:55
Speaker
Eventually Peter Parker and Scarlet Spider, they make it to the sewers where her signal is like the strongest and they come up with like a logical plan. Basically the logical plan is Ben Riley is going to kind of be the brute of the fighting and fight Kane because he's got more experience and Parker will focus more on getting his wife out of there and
01:07:22
Speaker
That's how they're going to do it. The two of them together, they don't know that they're being followed until literally right now they get down into the sewer and then just like P3PO busts violently through like a wall and get into like a small argument with Peter Parker and then he punches through another wall, which reveals the hidden tunnel leading to like the
01:07:47
Speaker
the lair, essentially. And this is just kind of another thing showing how really reckless and easily to violence that this P3PO is, which is another thing that just really makes it feel like this is a straight up clone that's just weird in the head. Because Ben Riley was not really a quick to jump to
01:08:13
Speaker
violence. Peter Parker himself, yes, is a superhero, but the intention is always to save people, which involves fighting. I've never had an instant where I see like Ben Riley or Peter Parker
01:08:28
Speaker
punching something because they're angry or breaking something because they're frustrated. It's usually like, Oh man, I need to process these feelings. I don't feel great. I'm going to go swing amongst the city. And like, I feel like that, that's more of how Peter is usually portrayed, but there in one of the storylines that I covered, he was needlessly violent, but it was,
01:08:55
Speaker
seen as to, at least to me, very out of character. So it makes sense that like a violent, someone who would act that way would not necessarily be seen as like a Peter Parker. Yeah. Okay. It just, he's really, he's really a loose cannon, this one.
01:09:21
Speaker
Um, but in a way it kind of helps because it did help them find the secret tunnel that helps them find Mary Jane in this weird sewer system. That is New York city. She is being chased by Kane because she, you know, tries to make a run for it again, which like, see it initiate. So they have all kind of met essentially underground at this point. And P3PO just goes straight into like,
01:09:49
Speaker
fighting instantly because he didn't know of a plan but he's messing it up now um right but he gets like knocked away very quickly because
01:10:03
Speaker
Kane's just really good at beating up this version of a Peter Parker. Because the plan has now gone haywire, Peter Parker starts fighting and then the Scarlet Spider takes over and now that the plan is back on track and Kane is occupied and the other Peter Parker is like...
01:10:21
Speaker
incapacitated again, or just like he was knocked away for quite a while. Original Peter Parker takes his wife. He's like, let's get out of here. And she's like kind of freaked out because again, it's all the clones, but like, she knows that she's with the right one at this point. So she knows that she's going to be getting to safety. So Peter Parker is trying to get Mary Jane out of the sewer. P3PO basically
01:10:52
Speaker
comes to again and blocks their path, and he's like, no, I'm the real one, Mary Jane. You gotta come with me. And she's like, no, you're not. I'm sorry, but what I got over here feels correct, and I'm gonna stick with that. And I trust her opinion. And he just kind of starts,
01:11:21
Speaker
losing it. He goes like full crazy and just starts saying that he's going to kill everybody. He's going to kill them all. And, um, it ends with basically original Peter Parker, Mary Jane stuck between a crazy P3PO who wants to kill everybody now and Kane. They're just in between
01:11:45
Speaker
a rock in a hard place. And that is the end of this issue. Again, it's pretty quick.
Episode Conclusion
01:11:51
Speaker
It's just like there's an argument. They find the sewer. They fight in the sewer. One of them goes even more crazy than before. Hey, everyone, this is Derek and Corinne from the editing booth.
01:12:06
Speaker
We're in a booth, not really. We're in a booth. We had a lot of issues recording this whole episode and we decided also, I mean,
01:12:16
Speaker
It went longer than I think either of us thought it was going to. It went a lot longer because there's a lot of, I forgot how much chaotic content was in this storyline. And I also forgot how equally chaotic my internet is at the moment in one particular room of my apartment. So we, we called it a night, but now we're back. So we're going to, we're just going to wrap up.
01:12:46
Speaker
Um...
01:12:47
Speaker
Real quickly, I'm just gonna do the outro and then we'll see you guys next week for part two of this. You can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedanticagemail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question read on the air and don't forget
01:13:17
Speaker
We still own fuckcomicsgate.com. If you'd like to send a donation to the games and online harassment hotline, we will be back soon with part two of this deep dive into the world of comics. But until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.
01:13:48
Speaker
My cat is jingling at me being like, you dumb fuck. That's not what clothes are for.