Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Spider-Man Clone Saga: The Lost Years
45 Plays1 year ago
Derek dives into Spider-Man: The Lost Years to see just what Ben Reilly has been up to since he left New York.
The audio on the last few episodes has been a little wonky. Sorry about that. We are working on some technical difficulties.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Comically Pedantic'
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Derek Colchase, and joining me on this episode is always the wonderful Corinne Levy. Oh, well, hi.
Corinne's Bright Spot
00:00:29
Speaker
So before we get started, I have to ask what your bright spot is. I have a very fun special bright spot. I had a friend come visit this weekend. Number one, I love hosting my friends and that is always a good time.
00:00:46
Speaker
But also this friend listens to the podcast and is a very dedicated listener. And it was just very nice because I didn't know really that I knew people that listened. And I'm just like, oh man, my friend supports me and I think that's really cool.
00:01:07
Speaker
So thanks to my friend for just being a really cool and supportive pal. We appreciate you and we are excited for all the things that they are doing. Because there is truly nothing better than catching up with the pal. So I got the opportunity to do that this weekend and I think that's my bright spot. I got a lot of fun things coming up and that kind of just like kick started
00:01:34
Speaker
all of the things that are to come. So it's been a good time. What about you?
Gaming Talk: 'Legend of Zelda' & 'Sonic Frontiers'
00:01:41
Speaker
So, uh, well the new, um, the new legend of Zelda game, uh, just came out.
00:01:48
Speaker
It's like a sequel to Breath of the Wild, right? Right. It's essentially Breath of the Wild 2. It has a different name. I don't remember it. So, of course, everyone's really excited about that. Everyone's talking about it online. And so, of course, I decided to buy a second copy of Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Frontiers, and not buy Legend of Zelda. And I'm having a blast with my second copy of Sonic Frontiers. Wait, why do you have a second copy?
00:02:14
Speaker
Because we have the PS5. So I was like, I want to see what it looks like on the PS5 and I bought it. You can do that? Yes. I thought it was a strictly Nintendo game. No, no, no, no. Actually, it's probably from what I've found online, it is like the worst version of it is on the Switch.
00:02:38
Speaker
And it's not like the game isn't wildly different on the Switch. It's just like the way that it runs and the graphics are a little- But is Sonic not an Nintendo? No, it's a Sega thing. Oh, that's right. You would think I would know that because we did literally a whole thing about Sonic property. I totally did not learn.
00:03:02
Speaker
Sega did a lot of like teaming with Nintendo. And that's- Yeah, because they did Sonic and Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games. Yeah, right. But they used to do their own console. Okay, so I'm not crazy. No, it's its own thing.
00:03:13
Speaker
But it looks amazing on the PS5. It runs so well. It is, and they've been doing a lot of like, this is just an ad for the game. They've just been doing like free DLC for it. So you can now like play your own mute. Well, not your own music. You can play like old Sonic songs. You can like, they've added it. So like you find music notes in the different areas that
Ben Riley's New Life
00:03:37
Speaker
you play. And then that unlocks new songs. Okay.
00:03:41
Speaker
to play. They also added like battle modes and like different ways to like race and have fun and yeah just like oh also they added a springtime thing for it so like all the little cocoa that you collect throughout the game are now little uh easter eggs it's cute genuinely i'm it is this is my third time playing the game all the way through and i'm having just as much fun uh as i did the first time
00:04:10
Speaker
Oh, I support that. So is the DLC just for, is that for all consoles? Yeah. Um, so, and they're doing like waves of it. So, uh, there's like, so I dunno, they're doing like a bunch of the thing I'm most excited about. It won't be until like the end of the year.
00:04:29
Speaker
It's like their third wave of DLC. They're gonna introduce a new story with other playable characters. And I'm hoping that means Knuckles and Tails and Amy, because I love- I love Tails. Right. And I think for sure they have to do Tails as a playable character. Oh, I mean, like, yeah. He's like the, like after Sonic, it is immediately like thought of Tails. Right.
00:04:59
Speaker
And so I'm hoping that at least is going to be fun. I genuinely, I could not believe how much fun I was having playing this because I was like, oh, I'm going to have to rush through this. Nope. I'm having a blast. I don't even care.
00:05:15
Speaker
Well, I get that. I like, so I play a lot of Stardew as I'm sure, I feel like I've mentioned it a lot. I do play a lot of Stardew though, big fan. And I had it on, I have it on my computer, but I don't know. There was just something about having it on the Switch. I just, I have a Switch Lite and I really wanted it on that. And so I got that this weekend because it was like on sale.
00:05:44
Speaker
Oh yeah, it goes on sale a lot. I know. It's such a fun game. I love Concerned Abe. And so I was like playing for like quite a while, like last night, just like little, little Switch Lite stardew action. And then I was having a great time. That is like the one game that I always come back to. There's a new game coming out soon, right? Yes, the haunted chocolatier.
00:06:13
Speaker
I want to play it so bad. I'm going to get it from my little switchy switch. I'm very excited. I really like the stuff that this guy, um, that concerned AP has made. Um, cause you can just tell he's so dedicated to like the things that he works on. And it's just, uh, the content is so wholesome and like just immersive. And I love it. Um, very passionate about starting.
00:06:42
Speaker
But yeah, I'm excited for it to come out. I don't know when it comes out, but best believe I will be playing it all the live long day. It looks great. I love the art style that I've seen so far, which I mean, it's obviously it's similar to Stardew Valley, but there's different colors and I love that color. Yeah, it's a different place. So it's got different styles to it, but it's still in the same
00:07:12
Speaker
like art mode and I like that. I do be a fan and it will be yet another game that I can like play for hours and then disappear from and then just come right back to you with all the same little guys. Speaking of disappearing and coming back to all the same little guys, aren't we going to talk about the lost years today?
00:07:36
Speaker
I absolutely love that segue. Thank you. Queen of segues here. I'm going to brag today. I'm a cocky son of a bitch this evening.
00:07:47
Speaker
In one of the most recent episodes of our show, we learned that Cain, the brooding, mysterious stranger whose entire personality is that he is brooding and mysterious, is actually the first and never before mentioned deformed clone of Peter Parker. Yeah, he's like the Phantom of the Opera, like Peter Parker's first clone.
00:08:07
Speaker
We also learned that Ben Riley, the person who we thought was the long lost clone from the original clone saga way back in 1973, was really the original Peter Parker and the Peter Parker we have been following for the last 20 years has actually been a clone this whole time. And this made me unhappy. It made a lot of Spider-Man fans very unhappy. This was not a well thought out, well,
00:08:36
Speaker
scheme that we've stumbled into. Whether or not any of this is true and how this all works on a continuity level is what we will learn in future installments of our own show. For right now, we are going to assume that this is the truth and we will take a look at what came in the five-year window between the original Clone Saga and the one we are currently reading.
Exploring 'Spider-Man: The Lost Years'
00:08:59
Speaker
That's right, we will be reading Spider-Man the Lost Years. And I wanna take a moment to let everyone know that I'm actually gonna be covering this a little differently. First, I'm going to cover the whole series in largely two parts, rather than as an individual issue. Like, I'm not gonna go through issue one, this is what happened. I'm just gonna tell you the whole story.
00:09:22
Speaker
And we will get to the reasons why very shortly. Secondly, I will get my personal opinion on the story out of the way before we get to what I liked and what I disliked, because I think it would be hard to hide my genuine feelings about this book. Okay. So how did you feel? I fucking loved this story. Oh, you did? Okay, good.
00:09:47
Speaker
genuinely like I started it and well well okay when I started it I was like oh no this is going to be terrible and then I got past that part and I was like holy shit I think this might be amazing
00:10:02
Speaker
And I genuinely loved it. This is what the Clone Saga should have been written like. It is a well-paced, darker in tone Spider-Man story that focuses on the characters, more than shocking endings. It has a great script from Dematius. It has a wonderful artwork from Romita Jr. and Klaus Jansen. I genuinely loved this.
00:10:29
Speaker
The only thing that really, well, I have a few things that I'm not super big on, but the thing that really weighs it down is not actually part of the story itself. It's the issue zero, which is what we're going to start with. So Spider-Man the Lost Years issue zero is a collection of short stories that are all jammed together to make a comic book
00:10:57
Speaker
And it kind of works, kind of doesn't. Most of the stories that we have, that are published, we have already read. And I'm not really gonna cover those.
00:11:09
Speaker
Depending on the version of issue zero you buy, it's either a collection of like the double plus the Parker legacy, which we kind of went over before. It's like the Parker legacy was like the story where Ben wanders home, sees that like Peter is with Aunt May, he decides to leave New York.
00:11:34
Speaker
he like, Stu goes to, he ends up staying at like this weird motel and he- Oh, with the, any encounters with the guy? Right. Right. He ends up like saving that guy from like shooting himself and it's a really good story and it's the same creative team. That's- Okay. I think, and that was my favorite thing we had read up until this point. Yeah, because that was- So I feel like this is just like the winning combination.
00:12:01
Speaker
That was just after Spider-Man 400 because part of Spider-Man 400 was the Peter Parker flashback where it discusses like why Aunt May was like afraid of Spider-Man in the beginning and like didn't like him. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I think that was the same or a similar team. I don't remember cause it was a while ago since I read it now, but
00:12:31
Speaker
But the vibes are similar, like background stuff for context. Right. And so we also have a story called The Double, which was a backup story that I will get into because we haven't read that one.
00:12:49
Speaker
But if you get a different version of issue zero, it has all of power and responsibility and a bunch of the other story arcs that we've read also as part of it. It's a long issue. Are all of these Ben Riley focused? I'm still for now gonna call him Ben Riley.
00:13:15
Speaker
Right. Because so I think this is going to get too confusing. If we start there, there is only a certain amount of times you can, yeah, you can number a Peter Parker. We already have Peter Parker attempted OG and we have P three PO and I think that's enough. Yeah, no, we're good. The, so yeah, these are all been Riley focused and, uh,
00:13:46
Speaker
there's a good reason for it. Because I mean, when we get into the last years, we're gonna be talking about Ben Riley as a character and like what he's been through. So we're gonna just skip some of what I've already talked about. We're gonna get into the double, which is reprinted here from backups that ran during the power and responsibility arc. So the very first Clone Saga story that you and I covered,
00:14:12
Speaker
So all the Judas Traveler and... Right. Okay. And it is written by JMD Matias, penciled by Liam Sharp, inked by Robin Riggs, colored by John Kalis, and loaded by Bill Oakley, Steve Dutrow, and Joe Rosen. In this story, we see a Peter Parker clone emerge from the cloning tank, and he is cared for by Professor Warren. This is the original clone from the original clone saga, who I am going to continue calling Ben for simplicity's sake.
00:14:41
Speaker
because that's how we know him. He is Ben, right? Ben is confused, unable to understand who he is or what is going on. When he grabs ahold of Professor Warren, like out of instinct, who grabs ahold of him, the doctor beats him into submission using a special device to control his clones. Ben then wakes up in a cell and is being experimented on before he finds a way to overpower Warren and escape. He like runs out into the city.
00:15:10
Speaker
As he's running through the city, he starts climbing the skyscrapers because he's really just acting on pure instinct and he kind of knows that as like a thing that he can do.
00:15:19
Speaker
He is then approached by the jackal with a jet pack in one of the silliest panels of the entire story. I genuinely had to stop because I started to giggle at seeing this guy wearing a green jackal costume with a jet pack flying through New York City. And it made me realize that, well, I mean, it's not the only thing that made me realize this because it's been a thing.
00:15:48
Speaker
It beats taking the bloody subway. Just kidding. That was a thumb. I don't live in New York. It made me realize how much the Jackal lacks a commitment to his own gimmick.
00:16:09
Speaker
Like, why is he, why is the jackal green? Why is he, he doesn't look like a jackal. Why is his thing cloned? Like, okay, I can get behind your thing is cloning. That's fine. We'll separate that from the jackal. But then like, now you have a jet pack and you're flying around. Like, it's such a weird thing for this character. You know, like the green goblin at the wall and seeing if it sticks.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah, he's just a weird character. But anyway, the two characters fight until Gwen Stacy appears and the Jackal takes advantage of this by knocking Ben out because he's of course enamored by Gwen Stacy and loses control over like what he's doing.
00:17:01
Speaker
And from here we see the hypnotic conditioning that the Jackal Force has been through. And when finally he has gone through all of that and he's ready, we see the original Clone Saga play out with Spider-Man waking up to another Spider-Man.
Ben's Realization and Departure
00:17:17
Speaker
So the two Spider-Man fight and the whole events of the original Clone Saga play out and there's an explosion again that seemingly kills Jackal and Ben. But then we see that Ben has woken up just outside of the smokestack where Peter had disposed of the body.
00:17:35
Speaker
So in the original Clone Saga, there's an explosion. Peter is the only one left standing. He takes Ben Riley's body because you can't just have a dead Peter Parker laying around somewhere, and he drops him in a smokestack. But in here, we see that after that, Ben wakes up outside of the smokestack. We don't know how that happens. We just know that he wakes up outside and he's alive.
00:18:01
Speaker
They've mentioned the smokestack before, like Ben Riley has in previous issues. Yeah. Cause that's where he throws out the floppy disk. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like when they're originally trying to be tricked, like in the stuff that we were reading, he's like, Ben Riley is like, I don't need this. I know who I am. I began at these smokestacks. So I mean, like, but that was still like clone Ben Riley.
00:18:30
Speaker
right now. So yeah, we'll, we'll figure out a little bit more of what's going on as we move through the. I just want to let you know that that's where my brain's at. When Ben leaves, he goes to visit Mary Jane and he sees Peter with her and he realizes that he must have been the clone
00:18:55
Speaker
all along. And that's what leads into the Parker legacy with him leaving and blah, blah, blah, blah. So that ends issue zero. And we then get into Spider-Man the Lost Years as its own story, which is it's a three issue miniseries. Issue zero is like fine. It's like preamble.
00:19:20
Speaker
But yeah, it really is. It's not a story. It's a bunch of little stories. They tried to give context to the actual story. Yeah, I guess like context for readers who don't really know anything about the original clone. I mean, it's.
00:19:38
Speaker
Like me. A lot of it's here. I don't think you need it, but also I've been steeped in Spider-Man lore since I was like fucking 10. So, and I have not. So I found some of it helpful, but also it to me, if I were reading this in the order, like, I don't know when the last years was real. Was it released after the one we just read? Around there. Yeah. Okay. Cause we are reading them in release order.
00:20:08
Speaker
We're moving some things around, but for the most part, it's in release order. Okay. If I was reading this in the order that we have read this, which I have. Which is mostly release order. Okay. To me in my head, I would still be like, nothing.
00:20:30
Speaker
makes sense as to the plot twist, the major one that they released last issue. Oh yeah. Yes. Okay. I just want to make sure that that hasn't been justified yet. Nope. Cool. All right. Uh, so then we started in the last years, which is written by JMD Matias penciled by John Romita
The Nomadic Journey of Ben Riley
00:20:50
Speaker
Jr. Inked by Klaus Jansen, colored by Christie Scheele, lettered by Richard Starkings and comic craft. And, uh, this picks up three years later.
00:21:00
Speaker
So it's already been three years after Ben has left New York City and he's sort of developed a life kind of like a nomadic life. Right.
00:21:12
Speaker
We follow Ben Riley as he makes his way to Salt Lake City. We begin with establishing our characters. So late at night, a trucker suffers a heart attack and runs off the edge of a cliff, but a mysterious man rescues him and performs CPR until the authorities arrive. This is establishing Ben Riley as still a heroic character, even if he's not really sticking around to go do Spider-Man stuff. He is not sticking at a place to be their friendly neighborhood Ben Riley.
00:21:41
Speaker
He's just being friendly Ben Riley.
00:21:45
Speaker
We also learned that Ben has already met and befriended Dr. Seaward Trainer because he is taking a job at a local university based off of Seaward Trainer's recommendation. And apparently this is an ongoing thing. He goes from town to town and he takes like small jobs based off of Dr. Trainer's recommendation. And then he finishes the job, takes the money, skips town.
00:22:14
Speaker
but they don't tell us how they met? Nope. Not at all. Uh, that might be something that comes up. I don't know. Yeah. I, the one thing that threw me off was at this point, Kane already knows Ben and Ben already knows Kane and Ben already knows Dr. Seaward trainer. So like,
00:22:37
Speaker
You're kind of starting after where you would want to know some of this stuff, but there's a chance that this is answered later in the Clone Saga. I don't know. I mean, but also it's called the Lost Years because I was hoping it would be like context for the years that were lost. But it hasn't
00:23:01
Speaker
There's a lot of context here and I do have an answer as to like kind of why it's still a little vague. Because it just makes me feel like Dr. Trainer really isn't like that, maybe that trustworthy. Could be, I don't know. I don't know, all right.
00:23:20
Speaker
So we later learned that Kane has tracked Ben Riley and is slowly watching him from the shadows. But instead of being in the blue and purple, he is just a regular man with long flowing hair and a thick beard that covers his scarred face. He looks like Alan Moore, if anyone knows what Alan Moore looks like. Just a very, like a wizard is what he looks like. Just big messy hair and a big bushy beard.
00:23:44
Speaker
a shaggy Judas traveler. Yes. And when a sex worker tries to get his attention at a local bar, he ignores her and he is then approached by her pimp and Cain is forced to fight the man into submission. Cain then gives the woman some money and he leaves, but he bumps into a woman named Louise Kennedy.
00:24:08
Speaker
The two are charmed with each other, but Cain leaves before a lowly criminal named Jimmy the Mouth approaches Louise and she punches him in the stomach and then she leaves.
00:24:19
Speaker
We later find out Luis is Detective Raven's partner. That thing was familiar. Right. And she has been working undercover to bring down Jimmy the Mouth's uncle, Vincent Tannen, who was already in prison, but his operation is still in full effect. It's like sort of... Yeah. Like the boss on vacation almost. Yeah, essentially. And so Jimmy the Mouth is sort of running it in his absence, but they're trying to take the whole thing down.
00:24:49
Speaker
And Detective Raven believes that they can make a difference. It's going to be a hard thing to do. But it comes up over and over again that it really is a matter of faith to him. And we learn that he's a deeply religious man. He's a Mormon that is really tied to his faith.
00:25:15
Speaker
So Riley stops at a local diner and he meets Janine, a beautiful redhead who he immediately finds attractive. He's got a thing for redheads, I guess. He also meets Detective Jacob Raven and learns that he seems to really like this guy because he radiates decency. Janine, on the other hand, doesn't really like Detective Raven and we don't know why. It's just a thing where she seems a little bothered by him.
00:25:46
Speaker
Wait a minute, if like, okay, when you say that they've met, have they been like sitting down, like having a long conversation?
00:25:56
Speaker
No, it's like a really brief moment where they talk, you know? But it is a thing that I thought was weird because if you remember when Raven visited Peter in prison, he's like, oh, you know, you should have seen me, blah, blah, blah. So like it was clear that he knew who he was, but like it was never brought up how weird it was that Peter never reacted to seeing Detective Raven
00:26:25
Speaker
before, like it was clear that he didn't know who he was. It's just like a weird thing that they, there's a lot of weird shit going on in that. And I guess you just kind of have to go, I don't know. Like based on what I had read, I never would have, like you would think that like detective Raven would be like, Hmm, this Peter Parker looks familiar. But again, maybe it was just like such a brief moment that it was like insignificant to
00:26:54
Speaker
Like when he goes to meet Peter in prison, and I think it was in one of the ones that I read, he does act as though they have known each other. But like, it's just, it's a weird thing because it's not the other way. If that's the case, you would expect Peter to recognize Detective Raven, but he doesn't. But Ben was the... Right. Well, no, I'm saying if you are Detective Raven,
00:27:23
Speaker
Oh, okay. This guy knows you. Yes. Wow. The clone saga really got me for a second. No, this is, it gets confusing. Okay. So Ben and Janine talk and they hit it off immediately and they decide to plan to go on a date with each other.
00:27:43
Speaker
Later on, a bust by Luis goes wrong and Tannen's men gain the advantage. They are ready to kill her until Kane crashes through the window, rescuing her. And when Luis asks, now what? Kane tells her that he can think of a few things and they immediately go and hook up.
00:28:04
Speaker
So as Ben is on his way driving through the city to meet Janine, his spider sense goes off and he ends up following it to a nearby house. As he gets close, it explodes. Ben rushes into the house and rescues a woman and a child. They both live, but the doctors aren't sure whether or not they're going to pull through. It is later revealed that the people Ben rescued were Detective Raven's wife and child.
00:28:33
Speaker
Raven himself had been kidnapped by Tannen's men, and Louise gets the news via a phone call while she's still in bed with Kane. Riley realizes that he's gotta do something, but he really kinda doesn't want to. He wants someone else to rush in and save the day because he's sort of found a happy life that he's living, and he doesn't want to get involved. Okay, so he likes the life that he's got. He's hanging out with Janine.
00:29:02
Speaker
They're having a good time and he doesn't want to deal with the power and responsibility of being him. And I can see how that would like, on paper, it's like, oh, we're retreading a lot of the stuff, but it's written really well. I will say like, for those that have read The Man Without Fear,
00:29:28
Speaker
Like, it's not, like John Romita Jr. does the artwork for that. And this is obviously going to be similar because John Romita Jr. doing the artwork for this. But it's more than that. It is like, there is something about this weird origin story that's being done, I think, really well. It also kind of reminds- Well, and I think it's also, cause I'm still thinking of, I'm still thinking of him as a clone, that he's not the original, like Peter Parker. Like- Right.
00:29:57
Speaker
If it was Ben Riley, like, clone, like, he really didn't choose to have these powers. Like, at all. Yes. Right. So, like, yeah. I mean, yeah, he doesn't want to deal with it. It makes sense, I think. Yeah. But Ben kind of realizes that he does have to do something because otherwise, like, someone is going to die.
00:30:26
Speaker
And he doesn't want that, but so he creates a quick costume out of bandaged hands and a bandaged face mask. He kind of looks like a little bit. Yeah. I mean, he kind of leaves the top for his hair to come out. Um, and you kind of can't like, yeah, but it's essentially the invisible man. Uh, he then tracks down Tannen's men as they are leaving with detective Raven and he
00:30:54
Speaker
takes care of them, it's a really quick fight scene, and he pulls Raven to safety and he tells him that he has nothing to fear from him, this masked man. The police arrive and Raven is told about his wife and son, because he didn't know, which obviously is a little upsetting. Yeah.
00:31:17
Speaker
Cain, meanwhile, is dealing with new feelings of being loved and accepted as he realizes that he genuinely cares for Luis. He starts to question if there might be a life for him, even if he is genetically deformed. Because for him, it's not just that he is cloned. It's that he is degenerating and his face is scarred. His body is messed up. Yes, it is. And that's part of the issue.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah, because he was trial number one, so. Right. We then learn that Detective Raven's wife didn't survive the night. And when Tannen learns that the son has survived, he is unhappy to hear about the lack of success in eliminating the entire family. So he puts the word out that it has to get done right. Oh my god. Yeah, he's an evil bastard. Yeah.
00:32:17
Speaker
Riley then runs into Janine and he apologizes for breaking their dinner date. From that point on, they spend almost every single moment together. Enjoying like just this weird, yeah. And while Ben builds on his relationship with Janine during the day, he goes out at night and fights Tannen's organization.
00:32:42
Speaker
And he starts to wonder if he's doing it out of responsibility to the innocent or fear of how quickly things are moving with Jeanine. It's all cut short though because Jeanine tells him that they can't see each other anymore. She doesn't tell him why, she just says she can't see him anymore. Oh, I wonder if she's part of the mob.
Kane's Internal Struggles
00:33:04
Speaker
in a quiet part of town. Oh, Derek didn't answer. We're gonna let that hang for a bit because I was questioning what the fuck is going on. Because I mean, we start power and responsibility and you know, Ben is solo. So clearly he can't have like a hidden wife. Clearly he didn't have a Janine cause he was trying to get with Becky and like Gabriella or whatever her name was.
00:33:34
Speaker
So we cut to Kane and Louise who are enjoying a nice, tender moment overlooking the city. Kane considers Louise to be the light in his dark world, but she tells him that they're more alike than he thinks. She calls him the night sky and the darkness, which is why she loves him. They return home and Kane has an attack of pain from the clone degeneration. It's sort of, it's,
00:34:01
Speaker
It's shown in a way that he can't control how much pain he's in, and it's like a panic attack. So he rushes out of the home and goes to find Ben Riley.
00:34:19
Speaker
And when he does, he just beats him down. He is to the point where he's ready to kill him. And the only thing holding him back from delivering that lethal blow is because he realizes he wants Ben to suffer. And so he can't kill him. He wants to just continue to make him suffer throughout the rest of his life.
00:34:44
Speaker
And it's through this that we learn that Kane knows Ben Riley is the real Peter Parker, and he hates him because he'll never have to suffer the way that Kane does. And I feel like this is a little bit of a retcon because it seemed like, at least the way that it was written before, he was trying to preserve Peter Parker as the original, and he hated Ben for being a clone.
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, getting in the way of a simple life for the original, which was literally what happened in the issue just before this.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah, and there are retcons in here that if you just accept this, it's good, you know what I mean? But those are the little things where it's like, that doesn't quite square with what we've read before. Because we have to look at it as like, hmm, I wanna like it because it is like, it's cool motive.
00:35:57
Speaker
I get it. But this is the clone saga. Yeah, it's all part of one thing. You've put it under one umbrella. You've put it under one house. Sure, the bathroom in this house might be nice, but the electrical is shit. And there's no heat.
00:36:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I guess this is also a good point. I probably should have mentioned this before. The way that the story is written is you have three perspectives. And it's Detective Raven, Ben, and Kane. And they're telling it from what is present day in the comics. And so they are remembering these things and remarking on them with present day knowledge.
00:36:54
Speaker
So Ben will later talk about things that have happened since he's been back in New York. Detective Raven talks about how things are going south. So I think it's really well done. There's an ambiance to this story that works. It's just, it works as almost like a separate thing from the clone sock. That's how it feels.
00:37:23
Speaker
So Cain leaves after beating Riley, essentially like within an inch of his life. And Riley is captured by Tannen's men and a surprise appearance by Louise Kennedy. So mob boss Vince Tannen has gotten out of prison.
00:37:48
Speaker
and he has taken Raven's son hostage. And as Tannen's men prepared to kill Ben Riley, Louise Kennedy is ready to let it happen. We learned that she has been on Tannen's payroll for quite a while, which comes as a shock not only to Ben and Detective Raven's son, because they're now all in one spot, but also to Cain,
00:38:15
Speaker
who crashes back into the building ready to fight. He is absolutely distraught over what he sees as a betrayal because he thought of her as this like righteous, wonderful woman. And it turns out she's working right, which is a little
00:38:39
Speaker
weird, I think, because it's also like, I mean, you didn't really tell her everything about you. Yeah, you didn't tell her you were a freaking clone. Right. To her, this is kind of like a job. I mean, yeah, she's doing bad things, but like, I don't know. It makes sense. It's just... Yeah, like I get it. And I think for Kane, it's like, it is a more interesting way as to why this woman probably died.
00:39:10
Speaker
I have like, I'm assuming like he does actually kill her. Like he confessed before and it's out of like, you know, cause he's upset and heartbroken. And he's also a version of Spider-Man that has to stop the bad guys, but he's super chaotic and bad. And like, maybe he accidentally kills her. That's my prediction. But like it definitely makes for a more interesting thing.
00:39:35
Speaker
So he barrels through all of the bad guys, just trying to get to her. But she manages to escape with Tannen and leaves Kane behind with Ben and detective Raven's son. So Ben takes care of Raven's son, gets him out. He takes him to his father and he doesn't tell him about his partner.
00:40:05
Speaker
It's just one of those things where he's like, I don't, he doesn't feel right telling him, which is an interesting take. It's like, okay, I feel like you should have, but at the same, he's like, in his mind, he's like, so much has been taken away from this man so far. That like, he doesn't want to take anything else. I was gonna say, like he's lost his wife. He almost lost his son. And now like to lose your partner. And like, I don't know.
00:40:34
Speaker
Part of why I brought up his faith earlier is that after the explosion, he has been steadily losing his faith. It's really just breaking his
Detective Raven's Despair
00:40:46
Speaker
faith. It's not really mentioned before. The reason why his faith doesn't come up again is because he essentially loses it throughout this. He can't handle what's happened. And he doesn't believe God would put this on him. Yeah.
00:41:03
Speaker
Ben then goes to collapse at Janine's door. And because he was just beaten essentially to death by Cain, his face is incredibly bruised and bloodied and he barely even looks like a person. Janine takes him in and cares for him. And as he mends, they reveal all of their secrets to each other.
00:41:28
Speaker
Janine's real name is Elizabeth time and She has been on the run from the police for murder When she was a child This is where it gets really hard when she was a child Her
00:41:51
Speaker
father abused her. And when it got to a point when she was older and she had a little bit more understanding of what was going on and she had this rage pouring out of her, she ended up killing him. Right. And she kind of like looks at herself as sort of a monster for what she's done.
00:42:15
Speaker
But Ben holds her and tells her that he loves her. And when she asks how he could possibly love someone like her, Ben replies, I could ask you the same thing. And then he takes her out into the city, leaping from rooftop to rooftop, showing her what it's like.
00:42:38
Speaker
to be him, essentially. Yeah. It's a really sweet moment. She even jokingly calls him Spider-Man, which is kind of cute. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. So they've grown a lot closer after all of this. Oh, okay. Elizabeth Tyne was a name that stood out to me, so I actually had to stop and look it up. The reason it stands out to me is because the name pops up quite a bit in
00:43:08
Speaker
The MC2, which I'm a big fan of, which was the sort of sequel series to Marvel that they put out in the late 90s, early 2000s. I still would recommend not looking that up because it is going to have a lot that deals with the Clone Saga because it was published essentially right after the Clone Saga. Ah, I will not then.
00:43:34
Speaker
It is really good and I have a few of the books. And when I say really good, I mean really good for the time. It's not like a very, it's just a lot of fun and like silly goofy superhero stuff. I like silly goofy, that's fine. I enjoyed the hell out of it. Anyway. They have a nice moment.
00:43:55
Speaker
Right, so the lives of Ben and Cain continue as Cain, again, faces off against Louise, who tells Cain that she really did love him. And for the first time in his life, Cain starts to cry. Wow. And after Louise leaves him, Cain follows Riley and Janine
00:44:21
Speaker
wondering how a man stripped of his soul and his identity could find love like that when Cain couldn't either. He thinks to himself that Professor Warren would be proud that his son was finally reaching his full potential. And Ben and Janine decide that they are going to leave and they're gonna head east.
00:44:45
Speaker
Oh, okay. They stop somewhere for food, and when they do, they're confronted by Raven and Kennedy, who tell Janine that it's time to stop running. They've essentially found out who she really was, and that's why she didn't like Raven before. Dang it. Ben pleads with Raven to consider that he saved both the older and younger Raven's lives.
00:45:13
Speaker
is telling him who he is, you know? And then Louise recognizes Ben because of this, you know, she recognizes he's the guy that was at the warehouse and she tells Raven that he is one of Tannen's men.
00:45:28
Speaker
So now Raven thinks that this guy is working with Tannen. And Riley snaps, knocks the gun from Louise's hand and grabs Raven's neck with the other telling him that he needs to leave them alone. So it's not looking good. Like Ben is really- No, like not at all. Ben is really making this seem like he's super guilty of something. Yeah.
00:45:57
Speaker
Ben and Janine leave the restaurant, and as they continue on their journey, they're attacked by Kane, who seems intent now on killing Ben. He just cannot handle it. Riley fights back with everything that he has, telling Kane that he has finally found something, someone, to live for. And as they fight, Kennedy and Raven arrive, still tracking Ben and Janine. Kennedy breaks away from Raven and pulls a gun on Ben, ready to kill him. She fires and misses.
00:46:26
Speaker
which gives Cain enough time to grab her and snap her neck. Cain then reaches down and for the first time puts the mark of Cain on her face. So it's after he kills her, he like does that. As an accent or on purpose? No, no, he does it on purpose. He wants to, like he is mad and he wants to burn her face essentially.
00:46:54
Speaker
Because she was part of the mob. She betrayed him. This is the way he sees it, yeah. So Cain runs off, leaving Detective Raven to find Ben and Janine next to his partner's body. Ben quickly disarms Raven and reminds him that if he was a killer, Raven would be dead now too.
Ben and Janine's New Beginning
00:47:22
Speaker
and then he and Janine take off and that's how the story ends. That's funky.
00:47:34
Speaker
Right, when I got to the end, I was like, wait, how the fuck, like what happened between now and when Ben shows up in New York? And there is an answer for it, but it won't come now. It's in a different miniseries that we will read later. That's stupid, it should just be now in the last years, the time in which it took place.
00:48:03
Speaker
Okay, this was a good story. It's not the story I was expecting. No, I liked it though. It was good. I don't know if it really helps me with content. I mean, I guess it gives us context to the most minor part of the grand plot as to what happened to Detective Raven's partner, which is like, all right, cool. But like,
00:48:31
Speaker
Uh, all right. So it's interesting because having read it, having like had the actual story in front of me, seeing the art, having it play out in front of me.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is really funny. I loved it. And I think for you, you're just having the plot points detailed to you and it's a very different reaction. And I was curious about that because I genuinely fucking loved this. Well, I'm glad. That's good. The reason I think you would like it is that it reads like an early Batman story. Oh, I mean, it will twist my arm a little. Why don't you?
00:49:14
Speaker
If you take out, he's not acting as a detective, Ben isn't. If you just take that out and you replace it as early vigilante Batman, this fits that really well. Again, I think if I just thought of it as a separate single one-shot story, even if it was just there were no superpowers involved, it was just a mob drama, I think this is a cool story.
00:49:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it is a- But when I have to think of the big picture. The other thing that sort of weighs it down for me, and it's very minor, is because it's set at a certain time in the Spider-Man mythos, the way the characters are convinced of certain details that, look,
00:50:14
Speaker
You've not read the clone saga all the way through. I'm sure you can piece together that at some point they reveal that Peter is really Peter and that Ben is like not Peter. Like that's a thing that they're just going to have to do because if they're trying to get rid of the clone saga, they got to wrap all this shit up, right? So they're reading this. It's coming from the perspective that Ben is the real Peter and like,
00:50:43
Speaker
That's kind of a silly thing to read now. Yeah, it does not make any sense. If you're reading this as, this Ben is the real Peter. It makes no sense. Why would he go to Utah? Well, I mean, so for there, he's just been wandering around taking jobs wherever he can.
00:51:09
Speaker
But why? Like, I feel like if you were the real Peter, you would be so, man, and it's just- Yeah, but he's convinced he's not, you know? Yeah, because it's like where his body has ended up is like, I feel like the writers are trying to gaslight me into making me believe that Ben Riley is the real Peter Parker. Well, yes, that is- I don't like that.
00:51:34
Speaker
That is the wall and that was the general reaction of fans at the time too. They were really pissed off about this. I'm really annoyed about it. So, do you want to know some of the trivia that we have for this? Cause it's actually like, I thought really interesting and it kind of shines some light on why it ends the way that it does because I was like, holy, this doesn't wrap anything up. So of course I'm going to go with the, the life of Riley.
00:52:04
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to go from the life of Riley with, of course, Glenn Greenberg. Yeah, we're going to go with Glenn Greenberg's comments from the life of Riley.
00:52:16
Speaker
This is quoting, of course, I believe it was Danny who put the creative team together and got the whole thing rolling. Danny Fingeroth, that is. When Bob Budiansky came on as Spider-Man's editor-in-chief, Bob integrated his staff, including me, Tom Brabort, and associate editor Sarah Mosoff into the Spider-Man group. And some projects were shuffled. Sarah ended up getting the lost years and put it out. Although she shared the editor credit with Danny.
00:52:41
Speaker
This was John Romita Jr.'s big return to the Spider-Man group after penciling the three-part Parker Legacy storyline that ran as a backup in the Spider-Books a few months earlier. This was very appropriate as The Lost Years is a sequel to the Parker Legacy in that it is essentially the story that picks up where the Parker Legacy left off and continues the story of Ben's early days in exile.
00:53:05
Speaker
Demetius did a terrific job tying it all together and providing an intriguing backstory to the present day trial of Peter Parker storyline. I was particularly taken with Janine and wanted to see more of her or at least find out what happened to her. Lost Years was great with a top notch creative team and Bob Budiansky wanted to turn it into a whole new franchise.
00:53:31
Speaker
So it would be the continuing saga of Ben Riley's years on the road. He'd be out of costume, but still inevitably ending up having to use his powers to help or protect the innocent, because with great power must come great responsibility. Once or twice a year, we would do a lost year's project, each by a different creative team to fill in the missing chapters of Ben Riley's life.
00:53:56
Speaker
At this point, Budiansky was apparently committed to the idea of Ben as the one, true, original Spider-Man. And I really don't think he would have planned an entire franchise around a character that he knew he was eventually going to debunk.
00:54:10
Speaker
I was very excited about the prospect of Lost Years as a franchise, and wanted very much for the Brevoort Greenberg office to be in on it. If Ben was indeed going to be the original Spider-Man, I felt that there was a genuine need for such a franchise. For starters, I got to be the reprint editor of the Lost Years trade paperback, which collected the three issues in one volume. Additionally, Tom B. let me take this lead on developing new Lost Years projects for us to work on,
00:54:36
Speaker
and compiling lists of potential writers and artists to talk to. Tom and I ended up putting together one Lost Years project, but not in the way that we had originally intended. The project ended up as a four-issue limited series called Spider-Man Redemption. It was a direct sequel to Spider-Man The Lost Years, but it was primarily set in the present day.
00:55:01
Speaker
which you and I will get to a few episodes from now because that would be something we will cover. Right. And that's the sequel to this. Right, and so that would fill in some of the gaps between the way this ends and the way power and responsibility starts. Okay.
00:55:26
Speaker
I liked this, when I found out that they were gonna do The Lost Years as an ongoing franchise, genuinely, I think that's a great idea. If you are going with this character that's going through the round, it's a fun idea to do like The Lost Tales of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I would say so. I think that's a great idea and it's a good way of like, you can do stories set in the past that could
00:55:54
Speaker
maybe influence things that are happening in the future. And look, as you reveal stuff in the future, it might give you stuff to bring into some of the past stories. It's a great idea. It's weird that they only did it a couple of times. I mean, I guess because the clone saga was starting to piss everyone off, especially with Ben being Spider-Man. But like, I don't know. I think this is great. And if they were all of this quality,
00:56:25
Speaker
You could have sold me on Ben being Spider-Man. I think I still need more convincing, but I also didn't. I would need more convincing than just this, but I could see a path forward. We've already seen Ben being the better Spider-Man of the two. And then if you introduce this story, which is a really well put together story,
00:56:55
Speaker
To me, the thing that I don't like about this is you're overcomplicating Spider-Man's life, right? Like he is sort of like an everyday, like an every man kind of person. Yeah. And you're ruining that if you introduce this like weird five year thing. This fits with like a Batman where it's like he ran away for some time and did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I can buy that from Batman.
00:57:20
Speaker
Yeah, but like you can't really buy that from spider-man no because it's he's so new york-based Well that and then it also makes his life Very unique where the thing that really sells peter Is that he's just a regular dude, you know, he just happened to get these powers And like I like ben as a character and I would be okay with taking uh, um
00:57:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, the more I think about it, I still wouldn't like Vin being Spider-Man. No, because it doesn't make sense. It just... But I like Vin as his own character. Yeah, I like him as the Scarlet Spider. I don't like him as Spider-Man. Right. And it's because we've known him so long as the Scarlet Spider and you watched him already have his own origin story.
00:58:20
Speaker
in a way, and in my head, I'm like, it's stuck like that. And I like that this was a fun read, and I'm very glad you had a good time, because it sounds like it's a good story. It is really good. It's really well done. To me, if the goal of the story was to try and persuade me that he is Spider-Man, it did not do it at all.
00:58:48
Speaker
I don't think that was the point. I think the point was to just fill in some of the gaps and to get you more interested in not only like what happened to Ben before, but Ben as a character, you know? And like, I think it's like, I don't know. It's just so weird because it's like he got really weirdly like aggressive. And it's like maybe he's learning to, he's going to learn not to like grab people by the throat.
00:59:16
Speaker
that think you murdered his partner. I don't know. There's just a way, I also am a sucker for the two things, love stories and the tragedies. And they go together really well, obviously. You are a Shakespearean kind of dude.
00:59:44
Speaker
It goes back to my love of Sandman. The freaking love Sandman, oh my God, don't even get me started. You and I are gonna have to do another Sandman check-in, but also. Yes, we will, I'm excited. As you get to the final book, which I know you've got a little while, but when you get to the final book, there is a whole series of stories
01:00:09
Speaker
in there that are structured as a Shakespearean tragedy. That is the entire like game and went in with I am going to write a Shakespearean tragedy and it is so fucking good. I'm going to this is going to happen. I'm going to rank
01:00:30
Speaker
my... Well, so I was thinking I rank my favorite stories in each book that I have. And then when I finish reading them, I will do a grand ranking. That's a great idea. And so yeah, we'll have to go back and talk about book one. One day, it will not be
01:00:50
Speaker
after we talk, it will probably be after we talk about book two. I'll start the ranking with book two and I will tell people what was in book two because I know that there's like different sizes of Sandman books you can get, but be ready because I'm going to be talking about it. We got to do another Sandman check-in and actually there might be
01:01:12
Speaker
Not to have our production meeting on air, but it might make sense to do that sometime soon because we have some long story to go on. Let's do it next, because I'm going to be busy this week and I don't have time to read. Totally to have our production meeting.
01:01:28
Speaker
I'm so happy that we decided to split the next story in two because it is huge. I know it's maximum clonage. Yes. They started advertising it during trial of Peter Parker. I want everyone to know that. That's the thing I forgot to mention in the last episode. Almost every, no, it was every time I finished an issue in trial of Peter Parker, they were like, and get ready for maximum clonage where we black people.
01:01:57
Speaker
and I'm like, give me, let me just finish this. So this was, I think originally the way that they put this out, lost years was going to be just a standalone thing. And then as they worked on it, they were like, oh. Let's make it multiple things. Let's make it multiple things because it would like, it could be a fun way of telling these stories. I genuinely dig it. Oh fuck.
01:02:24
Speaker
Man, they should have had me in the editor's office. In the 90s. Yes, because at the same time they were doing classic X-Men and what they would do is they would reprint older X-Men stories starting from the beginning. It was a good way for people to get
01:02:40
Speaker
on and get caught up on X-Men lore, but they would do backup stories with new stories that would flesh out some of what was going on. That's what they should have done with this. They should have reprinted old Spider-Man stories and then the backup story be some of an ongoing Ben Riley, like what's going on in Ben Riley's life. Honestly, yeah. Damn, that would have been so much fun.
01:03:10
Speaker
Yes, I agree. But unfortunately, you were not in the editing room in the 90s, but this is what we have. Yeah, I feel like you and I could have done a better job, honestly. I mean, I'm very flattered. Honestly, I don't know if I could have done a better job because I just would have been like, I don't fucking know.
01:03:32
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know. I was really cocky in the beginning of this episode and now I'm just like, I don't know if I could write a comic book. Well, but I mean, I think that you could. I definitely think you could. And I think that it would be something where you might need the structure given to you. But you know a good story. You know what goes into a good story. I'm not saying that these people don't, but I think that they're
01:04:00
Speaker
They're throwing a lot at the wall and hoping something sticks. I think again, it's like that marketing got really in the way and because it got in the way, it's turning into real soap opera vibes as opposed to like good story vibes all the time. Look, I love a good soap opera.
01:04:20
Speaker
But in order to hang those emotions on something, you gotta have the idea of a good story every so often. Every issue can't end with a big, shocking revelation. You've gotta have something to make you care about those shocking revelations. And I feel like so far,
01:04:41
Speaker
We've got a little bit of like some interesting stuff, but every time they start something interesting, they're like, but then here's the big reveal for this month. And it's not good. Nah, it's real tiring. It makes you real tired. I will not lie.
01:04:58
Speaker
So you can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. You can also follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com. If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedantic at gmail.com. Please indicate if you'd like your name or question right on the air. And don't forget, we stay on for commonskate.com. That's right. And if you'd like to send a donation to the Games and Online Harassment Hotline,
01:05:28
Speaker
Please do so. They are doing wonderful work. We will be back soon with another deep dive into the role of comics. Hopefully a Sandman check-in from Corinne. Little sandy gentleman. But until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.
01:05:57
Speaker
you