Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
China Tourism Tuesday Episode 6
13 Plays6 months ago
We sit down with Antonio Teijeiro, a China hotel and tourism industry specialist and general manager of the Kai Wah Plaza Hotel in Kunming, Yunnan. Antonio talks to us about shifting priorities and skills needed to grow in the Chinese tourism ecosystem in the 2020s and beyond.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:09
Speaker
My name is Shaul Batain and I'm coming to you from Shanghai, China. Good everybody. My name is Michael Jones and I'm speaking to you from Amsterdam. Today we have a wonderful guest to join us on the show.
00:00:23
Speaker
ah His name is Antonio Tejero and he is absolutely a China hospitality veteran. So today we' would like to just get some thoughts and insights from Antonio.
00:00:36
Speaker
um So Antonio, please, can you give us a brief description of yourself and then we can continue.
Antonio's Career Journey
00:00:44
Speaker
and Okay. So Michael, Charles, thanks very much for having me.
00:00:48
Speaker
having me on their on your podcast. um Congratulations on being able to nearly pronounce my last name, which is if which is very complicated, even did even in Spain, Tejedo.
00:01:00
Speaker
um But very happy to be on this on this podcast. um I'm actually a lawyer, or licensed lawyer, but i never I never worked as a lawyer itself. i've Nearly once I finished law,
00:01:13
Speaker
I nearly immediately went into into hospitality. um I've been lucky enough to be very adventurous, therefore go to many countries and work in many and many many countries.
00:01:24
Speaker
um I've led teams across all the continents except Oceania. So except Australia, that area, I haven't had that, but I've been able to to be lucky enough to have teams um well in in South America, in America, um Europe, Asia, it's in even in Africa. So it's it's been great.
00:01:44
Speaker
um I love what I do. I love hospitality because it deals with people. And people can be extremely difficult, but they can also be extremely extremely rewarding. um Most of my career has been developed in China. So now I've been on and off. I've been around 10, 11 years in in in China.
00:02:03
Speaker
um I've had general manager roles. I've also had corporate corporate roles here in China with with Marco Polo in in Hong Kong. um I've developed most of the time with with ah with the Marriott Group, um but also I opened a Wanda Hotel in Sichuan Bana.
00:02:21
Speaker
ah So tried the the the typical or topical Chinese hotel company here in in China.
Promoting China-Spain Tourism
00:02:28
Speaker
um In total, I've opened eight hotels in the in the world.
00:02:33
Speaker
um So my profile is very much from the beginning of the hotel, the conception of the hotel um to the to the op owning opening and opening. and operating.
00:02:44
Speaker
um I especially like, I'm a consultant, so I'm trying to ah promote China tourism. I'm promote i'm trying to promote especially China and Spanish tourism.
00:02:56
Speaker
i'm I'm Spanish, therefore i'm trying to I'm trying to focus on that kind of of kind of business. um I love the aspect of ah intercultural um understanding and empathy.
00:03:10
Speaker
um I studied with Aaron Meyer in INSEAD about cross-cultural management. And I think that tourism is, i mean, it's a business, I need money, I'm not a millionaire.
00:03:21
Speaker
um I guess we all need money. um But it's also a wonderful way for people to understand each other and for countries to um understand each
Trends in Chinese Hospitality
00:03:30
Speaker
other. So I do want to do business between Spain and China, but also I want to increase the friendship between Spain and and and China.
00:03:39
Speaker
As a consequence of this also, I think, I love to work with students. So I've had a lot of experience with hotel schools. I have a lot of ongoing experience with hotel schools.
00:03:49
Speaker
um There's nothing better than to be able to influence ah the next generation of hoteliers. And sometimes they ask you questions which your colleagues don't ask you.
00:04:01
Speaker
They ask these kinds of questions. So it also helps to recycle your mind a little bit. So, um pure hotelier, love to work with people. um And i adore I adore China. I think the country, the history is is extremely interesting.
00:04:14
Speaker
ah The people are very welcoming. So I'm very, very happy to be ah to be in china Great. Thank you very much. I mean, I'm i'm also learning from this. ah We haven't known each other for terribly long. So thank you for that introduction.
00:04:28
Speaker
um So you, with all your experience with the China hospitality, with i mean, I would like to ask you, For the guests that come and that are frequent at the hotels that you have opened and the the connections that you have made and the people that you've been speaking to, i mean, how how would you describe the the preferences for for for Chinese consumers when it comes to it like ah from a hospitality perspective?
Impact of Pandemic on Hospitality
00:04:57
Speaker
and Okay. Yeah. um Well, actually I arrived in in China in 2011. So the the Chinese guest of and eleven and The Chinese guest of 2025 is totally different, right? There's been a ah huge evolution, i I would say, a huge sophistication of the of the guest, right?
00:05:15
Speaker
um We all remember you know the the word Tu Hao. When China opened up and some people became very rich, um what was important was was only face and there was no look. ah You only wanted a brand. If you wanted to go to a hotel, it needed to be a Ritz-Carlton or a Mandarin Oriental. You were only looking for the brand, um not the content of the brand. Did you identify with the message that the brand was was giving you?
00:05:42
Speaker
It was basically about Mian Tzu, about face. But if you look at the consumers now, they're quite sophisticated. um It's not a question of of face anymore. Well, there's always a question of of of a little certain reputation.
00:05:55
Speaker
But now there is brand identification. um Consumers are aware of what brands stand for. And this is especially important in a market where um if you look at Marriott, if you look at Accor, they have more than 40 brands, each one of them. So um you need to have consumers that are very sophisticated and understand what each brand stands for, and they will be loyal to those brands. And I think that the Chinese market um is definitely evolving towards this, not only the consumer,
00:06:27
Speaker
ah But also the owners of the hotels. Previously, ah people just wanted really high-end because that was, you know, I have a real estate project and I need a hotel. It has to be a five-star.
00:06:39
Speaker
um It has to be a Ritz-Carlton, a Marriott, a Sheraton. a Sofitel, one of these big brands, intercontinental. Nowadays, the Chinese owner is much more sophisticated in the sense that they're looking for a ROI.
00:06:53
Speaker
um There is still, I would say, in the third tier and fourth tier cities, there is still a case of Mianzhe, of face, um but it's less and less. So there is that sophistication.
00:07:06
Speaker
um The consumer is looking now for experiences. ah Before, as I said, it was more of the fact that, you know, take a picture and you take a snapshot and here I am at the Intercontinental or NDW.
00:07:19
Speaker
Now they're looking for, now they're really looking for experiences. I think that the who goes to the hotels hasn't changed that much. China is based on family and you still have lots of families going over, but now you have a lot of friends also coming over.
00:07:36
Speaker
um The old style of groups where you had these these huge tour groups, now you can still have groups, but as I said, maybe they're constituted by the family and closer and and closer friends.
00:07:48
Speaker
um So I would say that the biggest difference of the market from when I arrived to now is that um is that sophistication in in in general.
00:07:59
Speaker
If I look at the last years, and especially after COVID, there has been a change in in consumer behavior, especially in 2024. 2023 was actually, at least in hospitality,
00:08:15
Speaker
It was a very, very positive year economically, but unfortunately it gave rise to a very difficult situation also.
Post-COVID Consumer Behavior
00:08:24
Speaker
2023 was the year that China opened up, that all the money that was under the mattress, hey, let's go spend it and let's go outside or let's go, you know, let's go internationally or let's go to to a nice hotel here in Yunnan, in Sanya, wherever wherever it is.
00:08:40
Speaker
So there was a lot of spending. and the time that people took for vacation was much higher than it normally is. um Unfortunately, what happened is that the budget for 2024 were done based on the excellent and and quite singular results of 2023.
00:09:00
Speaker
2024 was nowhere near 2023. So many hotels, many hotels have struggled, have struggled. um So I think this is this is this is ah a big change. was a miracle year.
00:09:16
Speaker
2024, unfortunately, had to bear the consequences of those very high budgets. And also, whereas 2023, everyone like, okay, now that we're out, we're going to spend money. 2024 was much more, people were looking much more at value.
00:09:32
Speaker
So they were really looking at what what they were spending and that made the ADR for hotels drop. and So people were very value conscious. And there was a split in 2024, which was very interesting. It's the split between the consumers or the travelers that stay in China and the Chinese that actually can afford to go abroad.
00:09:54
Speaker
right so um I think the ones that could afford immediately went abroad and this took out from the local market. So the local market was already struggling or has struggled in 2024 because of that value proposition, that heightened a value proposition.
00:10:11
Speaker
ah But on top of that, the the cream of the market, let's say, was was taken up by the international market, right? So that that was ah that was kind of a challenge. So I think 2025 is actually gonna be a readjustment year.
00:10:26
Speaker
um Unfortunately, the economic situation and the geopolitical situation, I think, will make the market still a little bit jittery, a little bit nervous.
00:10:38
Speaker
So I think you're still going to be so you're still going to be seeing value conscious consumers, and you will still see that the top consumers will probably be going abroad.
00:10:50
Speaker
and going abroad When I say value conscious, I don't mean looking for the lowest price, but really looking to maximize um that compromise between what you're paying and the experience that you're getting, because there is still that sophistication from the guests.
00:11:10
Speaker
right So I think 2025 will be a ah readjustment year, but we really have to wait for the geopolitical situation and the economic situation.
Service Quality in China vs Europe
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's really, really interesting.
00:11:22
Speaker
I also wanted to ask you just just very quickly while you're talking, i was thinking about it because this was a bit of a misconception. Well, something that I also don't... fully understand, and that's specifically around service.
00:11:37
Speaker
So, for example, when when foreigners go to China and when they don't really understand the culture very well, when they don't understand the the language fairly well, I get the feeling that they don't really understand and appreciate And correct me if I'm wrong, please.
00:11:57
Speaker
um They don't really appreciate how good service actually you find in China in the restaurants, whether it's luxury or on the street or ah in the hotels.
00:12:09
Speaker
Whereas, but I think it's more of a misunderstanding. I kind of feel that the service in China towards Chinese is actually pretty strong. um But then, for example, when I, when I,
00:12:22
Speaker
I'm in Europe, whether I'm in Paris or Amsterdam, where I live, service is actually pretty shocking. um and but But foreigners don't get to appreciate how strong service is in China just because they don't really necessarily understand it from a cultural perspective. do Do you think there's any truth to that? i mean, do you think Chinese people get good service in China?
00:12:45
Speaker
um Okay, how to say this diplomatically? Please, no need. Yeah, okay. I think but for for one for one thing, there is there is one thing that in China, um you have a lot of very modern and huge hotels.
00:13:02
Speaker
um China does not appreciate in the same way. If I go to Spain, um and I'm staying in 200-year-old castle, villa, can appreciate that. ah can appreciate that um But there's still a tendency in China towards something modern, something new.
00:13:20
Speaker
um So you will find yourself in hotels that pretty much have incredible facilities. I mean, um some four stars in China or three stars even in China are honestly five-star hotels in North America.
00:13:33
Speaker
And I mentioned especially in North America because you can go to intercontinentals and And these kind of brands in North America, where really the the the facilities are very, very, very poor.
00:13:44
Speaker
So you have a very high level of facilities, I think, in China, which already helps very much. Second of all, um Chinese are, as as Confucian societies,
00:13:55
Speaker
um They are very welcoming and they are not they don't have a tendency to contradict you. Let me put it this way. So you do have you do have ah you do have good service. And there are some companies um I can think of experiences with Trip.com or Ctrip.
00:14:11
Speaker
um where if you mention, you know, I have a problem, I have this, they call you back, they tell you, I'm going to call you back in exactly eight minutes, and exactly eight minutes later, they call you back, it's really incredible service. So you do have really good service. So um I do think that there is really good service in China, you're right in that sense.
00:14:31
Speaker
um I do think that service in China is... um in the last years has gone down a little bit. um I do believe that this is something global.
00:14:42
Speaker
With COVID, um the hospitality industry is becoming less and less um less and less attractive for young people. You work incredible hours, um you don't necessarily get very high pay, or you you have to reach a very high level when you get ah when you get ah a high pay.
00:15:00
Speaker
um And more and more young people after COVID, and this I've experienced in South America, I've experienced but experienced it in Spain, I've experienced everywhere, even even here and in in China, um the young generation does not want to do service, right?
00:15:16
Speaker
oh Ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies and gentlemen, that Ritz-Carlton motto, difficult to apply in in in China. I'm not saying China doesn't have good service. They have good service, ah but I love this country and sometimes you need to be critical with ones that you love in order to maintain that that high position.
00:15:34
Speaker
um It's getting difficult to find good um good formed people here in in in in China. it is ah it is in other places, but also remember,
00:15:45
Speaker
that serving people is not necessarily part of the culture. know it's not necessarily well seen. um I've had many people who have said, you know, I'd love to work, but my parents don't want me to be serving. My parents don't want me to be in a hotel.
00:16:02
Speaker
So there is honestly there is that factor. Does China have good service? Yes, it does. Does it have better service than many, many, many, many other countries? Yes, it does. um Is there somewhat of a challenge?
00:16:14
Speaker
I do think that there that there is. i do think that there is a certain a certain level of challenge, especially after especially after COVID. um That's one of the reasons, for example, here in Kunming, one of my objectives is to try to do a conference between hotels,
00:16:30
Speaker
and hotel schools to make sure that what hotel schools are teaching is exactly what the what the what the hotels what the hotels need. Now, in reference to your question, I'm sorry I'm going and going around lot, but in reference to your question, I think i think service to ah to foreign guests is generally very good.
Attracting Chinese Tourists
00:16:50
Speaker
Chinese, as I said, are very welcoming. They will do anything to make your to make your stay to make your stay very yeah very positive. um the lack of English speaking service is a challenge. there is ah To be honest, there is less and less people in China that are opting for English as ah as ah as a second language. there there is that kind of There is that kind of miscommunication.
00:17:16
Speaker
um But if you come once or twice to China, the country is so fascinating. um I think you're not going to have you're not going to encounter a lot of problems. And if you do, you're going to be so mesmerized by the country that you won't really that you won't really notice it so much.
00:17:30
Speaker
Very interesting. Antonio, just based on your experience you know in in the hotel industry within China, I was wondering if you could maybe isolate the few you know a few themes and a few must-haves for international hotel accommodations when they look at Chinese travelers that are going outbound. What is essential to have to be China-friendly?
00:17:54
Speaker
um First of all, really be dedicated to it and really understand that um the Chinese market, first of all, is is extremely lucrative in the sense like for Spain, it's the Chinese customers are the ones that spend the most money in in Spain.
00:18:10
Speaker
Huge difference with our with our normal market. So um you have to understand that it is a very, very important market if you're trying to do quality tourism. um In the case of Spain, we received 94 million tourists this year that was a that was an absolute record so more than two tourists per for Spanish people we cannot continue like this so we we need to go towards quality if you want that and if you want the Chinese guest um you have to understand that you have to adapt your hotel your services your products to the Chinese to the Chinese guest right because if you want them to come back if you want them to spend
00:18:48
Speaker
through upselling, through great experiences, you need to adapt to them, right? And it's also a measure of of of respect to the to the Chinese tourist. Now, this morning I was looking at a post on LinkedIn ah by coincidence, and it was very funny because it was a person who was um who was actually promoting um ah China, and but was saying that they get the that the the the clients of this this person, whenever they they hear about Chinese clients and and how lucrative they are, oh, well, fantastic, I really want Chinese clients.
00:19:20
Speaker
But as soon as you mention that, hey, okay, you will probably need someone in the hotel or or in your shop that speaks Chinese, that understands Chinese culture, ah Maybe you need to come to China to see um whatever travel agency is sending the guests over here, so you establish a personal relationship.
00:19:38
Speaker
Basically, whenever they see that they need to spend time and money for the Chinese market, then it is very different different ah perspective. I've experienced that in Spain.
00:19:49
Speaker
um Many hotels, oh yeah, i want the Chinese tourists. They spend a lot of money, they're great, they don't complain too much, they're very kind, etc. I'll say, okay, fantastic, this is what we need to do.
00:20:00
Speaker
oh well okay well you know what i have the french to the french market the british market german market the dutch market maybe maybe we can leave that for next year um so the first thing that the person needs to have is an absolute education and understanding that this is a market that will give a lot of a lot of revenue um that will give a lot of satisfaction it is a long term but you need to be dedicated to that um After that, it's putting into place, I think, language is very important, but I think most important than language is cross-cultural understanding.
00:20:34
Speaker
How do you deal if there is a complaint? How do you deal with a complaint from the Chinese person? It's radically not the same way as what you deal with an American person who has ah who has a who has a challenge, right?
00:20:46
Speaker
So you need to have that cross-cultural understanding you need to have the language, you need to have the will and the understanding that this is a long-term relationship and you need to invest in that.
Business Culture in China
00:21:00
Speaker
I just want to quickly also ask you a question just from ah a pure business perspective, Antonio. So i'm I'm always very fascinated in in foreign entrepreneurs who've entered China and who've really made a good go of ah business in China because it is...
00:21:16
Speaker
in a certain sense it is welcoming, it's very meritocratic, if you're good you will do well, but I always like to hear sort of a first principles approach to, can you give us just an idea of how you start up, you mentioned you started many hotels in China, who are the people you partner with, um how important is is is Chinese language, how important are local partnerships, can you give us sort of ah a process that that you go through when you approach a new hotel project?
00:21:47
Speaker
um I mean, if if you're if you're thinking of um in in general, I think it's what I just mentioned for for the services or or the attitude that you need if you try to attract tourists to to your your your home country, right?
00:22:01
Speaker
um If you're trying to establish a business, no matter what business it is here in China, I think more than the language, it's a matter of having cross-cultural um understanding um of the Chinese culture China is ah is is is based on the family on the group therefore um really what is very, very, very important are the relationships that you create um in in China, the people that you the people that you you know.
00:22:30
Speaker
Now, it's not that simply it's a person that you know and that's it, it's a person that you know and they must be capacitated, they must have the knowledge, they must have the experience to to help you out.
00:22:40
Speaker
um But there if there is something that relates or something that is extremely important here in China is those those relationships and who you know. as a as a as a hotelier that has opened several several hotels for me it's important to have people or my contacts um so i know if i need someone from food and beverage i have this person who i've already worked with before uh they're part of the team so those relationships are are are extremely important but as i said it's it's the cross-cultural understanding of what is china
00:23:14
Speaker
um So many people come to China, they have no idea of where to sit on ah on a banqueting table. And one of the first things that you're going to happen is if you have a if you have a partner, a Chinese partner, they're going to take you out for dinner. So where do you sit on that table?
00:23:30
Speaker
How do you behave? um during the time that you're having dinner. And make no mistake, if you do not obey if you do not work according to the culture, the local culture, it will have very, very negative impact. And it's normal. I mean, if someone comes to Spain and does not respect my culture, well, there's a point where you're going to well, how can I work with this person?
00:23:56
Speaker
um If you want to do business in China, learn the local customs. How do you drink with you know with your with your partner? Do you drink with your partner first? um Who do you drink second? Where do you sit?
00:24:09
Speaker
um it's it's it's very all these All these customs are extremely important and I would say that it's it's more important to the language. um They will have, if you try to learn the language, you know, three or four words, ah Chinese will always respond, oh, you speak Chinese. They're they're very, very kind.
00:24:25
Speaker
It doesn't matter if you only do two words, they will say, oh, you speak Chinese. And they they appreciate that. um But doing a faux pas from the point of view of their culture, um that can have great consequences.
Chinese Tourism in Spain and Latin America
00:24:37
Speaker
And I think that the majority of the people that I know that i have come to to do business here in China,
00:24:43
Speaker
they are unaware of these cross-cultural of these cross-cultural factors Oh, that's really interesting, Antonio. Trying to see if I can merge your passion for the Chinese market and then also for the the Spanish-speaking world. um What would your thoughts be around Chinese outbound tourism to the Spanish-speaking world of Spain itself and possibly even Latin America? or What do you think? what What needs to be done? What's been done wrong?
00:25:09
Speaker
ah What improved? What's the potential? Yeah. What do you think? Well, um if if I talk about Spain and spain in particular, um since 2023, the Chinese tourists have been the one that spent the most in in Spain, right?
00:25:27
Speaker
um Last year was 2,900 euros or something around. um for each tourist and every stay. ah This year went down a little bit to 2,872 euros per stay.
00:25:41
Speaker
um That's a little bit more than 400 euros per day and they stayed between seven and eight days. um So they're on the top of the list, let me say for them. the Let me say quality, um and I'm not going to contrast quality with quantity.
00:25:59
Speaker
um Other tourists who come in in bigger numbers, they're also good quality. But just as ah as as a reference point, let me put it this way. um Chinese represent a huge opportunity for Spain to shift.
00:26:13
Speaker
ah somewhat that tourism from... We are a mass tourism country. Let's let's let's face it. We had 94 million tourists last year. It's growing and growing the number of people who come to who come to to to enjoy Spain.
00:26:27
Speaker
um But when you have tourists like the Chinese, um which, as I said, nearly 3,000 euros per stay, compared to the French, for example, who stay about who spend about 800 euros per stay, there is a very big difference. I'm not saying...
00:26:43
Speaker
no to one group of tourists and and yes to another group of tourists. But I am saying that China is an opportunity to to go towards a less massified and more but tourism, more based on on on experiences.
00:26:56
Speaker
um It's still relatively for Spain, it's still relatively small. We had a record number of 700,000 Chinese tourists um In 2024, it actually nearly doubled from after pandemic, but it's only 647,000. So it's it's relatively a drop in the in the in the ocean.
00:27:17
Speaker
um I think Spain, whilst there is a focus, for example, the the the town hall of Madrid, is very focused on Asian tourism um because of that that spending power that they have and and and staying seven nights, which is which is excellent.
00:27:34
Speaker
So they are focused on that. But I must admit that it is the same as what ah that anecdote that I said before. um Many people say, oh, well, yes, I'm super interested in this market. But when you tell them, okay, but it is you know it is intensive,
00:27:47
Speaker
um It is long term, you will have very good benefits. There is still a tendency to look at everything from, okay, well, this year it's already done, right? So maybe I'll look at it next year. So there needs to be more dedication.
00:27:59
Speaker
um There needs to be a determination from the um the the tourism side in Spain to say, okay, we need to shift a little bit towards those ah more experiences, towards geez these kind of markets um where they were have more spending power.
00:28:13
Speaker
um Also something that is not were very well known, but um the highest, ah the the OTAs, all OTAs, you can book your travel, but you can also rate your travel, and most of them rate your travel.
00:28:24
Speaker
And the OTAs with the highest rating globally is always OTAs from China, ctrip and trip.com. So if you have a Chinese tourist coming into your hotel, it will actually benefit the scores that your hotel gets, the the customer satisfaction.
European Over-Tourism Concerns
00:28:43
Speaker
And there is a famous study from from Shiji and STR, Shiji Review Pro, STR and also Cornell University, which says that one percentage point of increase in the GRI of a hotel, the GRI is the customer satisfaction index.
00:29:01
Speaker
ah which is proprietary from ReviewPro, has a consequence of plus 1.42% REVPAR increase also in that that that hotel. So if you have Chinese tourists, they will probably rate you higher than other tourists, and that will give benefits in occupancy, in ADR, and in REVPAR.
00:29:24
Speaker
So Chinese tourists are very beneficial to Spain. I say, you know, let's let's get it together. ah Let's be serious at this. Let's have a long term perspective, which will allow us to have um more Chinese ah people who are formed in China to come back to Spain and serve the Chinese customer ah to have experience based services and and and and and products.
00:29:50
Speaker
um For Latin America, I think Latin America is very interesting from a geopolitical point of view from China. China is investing a lot in in in South America, in the Caribbean.
00:30:03
Speaker
The challenge, and to be very honest, the challenge that exists is that every Chinese tourist, when they go, ah when they go abroad or before they go abroad, they make they make themselves, they give themselves three questions.
00:30:14
Speaker
First of all is, do I know the destination? Because not all destinations are known, right? So do I know this destination? The second of all the second question is, is this destination safe?
00:30:26
Speaker
And maybe that could be a challenge for south american destin some South American destinations. No doubt there are some areas and countries which are very safe. There are countries which are very renowned for the safety like Costa Rica.
00:30:38
Speaker
But it could be a challenge, especially if you compare it maybe to countries like Canada or regions like Europe or the Middle East, which are also growing very much. And the third question that they do, so the first one is, do I know the destination?
00:30:52
Speaker
Second one, is it safe? The third one is, how do they treat Chinese in these in these destinations? In that sense, I think Latin America has no problem. There's a good relationship between Latin America and and China. so I think Latin America is a market that will definitely, definitely grow in tourism because it has incredible natural beauty.
00:31:13
Speaker
um The gastronomy, also the the food is absolutely fantastic. You have history, um but there's a lot of things that need to be done in order to get the Chinese there. And also, of course, you have your um your your your connection. So is there any flight?
00:31:28
Speaker
going to to South America, which is relatively easy to take and you don't have to do, you know, like they'll go through to to to Seattle and then you move to I don't know where and where and you have transfer and transfer and transfer. yeah So aerial and air can communication is also is also very, um very, very important.
00:31:46
Speaker
But I do think that Latin America definitely, definitely has a huge future for Chinese tourism. Yeah, I mean, on that point, I understand that pre-COVID, most of Chinese travelers going to South America would ah fly with American airlines.
00:32:01
Speaker
But because they haven't resumed a lot of those flights, they've now been forced to go via the Middle East, via Europe. uh making it longer making it more and absolutely making it more expensive also um but i just saw one last question from my side and then shall have one more question for you but one last question from my side actually to touch back on what you were talking about with uh chinese ah tourism to spain specifically and the higher spend there and things like that i mean naturally in the international media we've all been reading about over tourism uh protests in in barcelona against tourists
00:32:38
Speaker
And things like that. And I wanted to ask you about your opinion on ah this one little theory that I have. My theory is that um after COVID, um I mean, airline prices went up everywhere in the world, but especially also in Europe. Europeans were accustomed to jumping on a plane and flying anywhere all the time because...
00:33:00
Speaker
frankly speaking, tickets used to be cheap. But now for Europeans to fly, for example, to Asia, to South America, has been become very costly. I mean, and you're looking at minimum 1,000 euros, 1,200, 1,500 euros minimum for one ticket which i think has kind of forced Europeans to reassess their budgets and travel inside Europe a lot more.
00:33:25
Speaker
and And I feel that a lot of the over-tourism in Europe is from European tourists. And and my my concern is that with all this talk and and a lot of, let me also say, a lot of thoughtless, free talking about over-tourism, my concern is that many of the European countries are going to start to be less proactive or less interested in attracting Chinese tourists, Indian tourists and things like that of fear of even more over tourism, even though in a sense, they're actually the cause of their own problems.
Educating European Markets
00:34:04
Speaker
I don't know. What would you think about that? Super interesting. You're you're completely right. um Yeah, it is it is interesting because those those markets that in particular, and you just remind me reminded me a conversation that I had in in Madrid about the Chinese tourists. you know I was telling them, well, this is an option for um a tourist that stays longer, that spends a lot more money, that is much more susceptible to upselling, that will appreciate experiences that is more loyal.
00:34:35
Speaker
But then they would say, well, hold on a second. Yeah, I don't want to have 10,000 people coming over because, of course, they they assume or they think of those tourist groups, um huge tourist groups that are going to come over. But the the reality is that the chinese mar the Chinese tourists that go over to to Spain, they have nothing to do with tour groups. They may be a tour or they may be a group, but because it's the it's the the the couple with their parents, with their children,
00:35:04
Speaker
with their friends. So it's it's the the group, but in ah in a Confucian society way understood. No, it's not really a group of 40 people coming in and just taking their camera.
00:35:17
Speaker
And today is Tuesday, therefore I'm in Brussels and tomorrow is Wednesday, so i mean I'm in Paris, right? So um there is a you you're completely right. There is a misunderstanding and and Spain in particular, we are we are a magnet for for French, for for Germans,
00:35:33
Speaker
for all Europeans and now Americans also are coming a lot to to to Spain. and And thank you very much for coming to our country. Thank you for for visiting. But we have created a challenge that is, you know, that over tourism is no doubt a very big challenge. But you're right that the markets, maybe China, India, are associated to large numbers and people may be afraid. But that's why there's a lot of education necessary in what is the Chinese tourist? What does the Chinese tourist really really represent, right? Which I think is, um um ah during this whole this whole chat that we're having, it's what I insist the most, it's that we need to educate um ah the the the receptive market of who the Chinese tourists are and what you need to do to um to get them. That is that is extremely important.
00:36:20
Speaker
In that sense, for example, yesterday, I just came back from Guangzhou to, um I was talking to the Tourism Authority of Spain, because I want to try to facilitate um the trainees to have Spanish hospitality school trainees come over to China understand China and go back to Spain and be able to serve to have an excellent service and excellent products innovation for for Chinese tourists because right now it's extremely difficult to get students from Spain to well I think any country um to to to practice here in in in China but I think I think basically Michael this is a question of education educating um the markets this is what China represents and this is what the China market represents
00:37:05
Speaker
And if you want it, this is what you need to do.
Regional Differences in China
00:37:08
Speaker
Yeah, we need to educate more, 100%. So you've got one last question, I think. One last question, just in line also of this question, you know, of who these Chinese tourists are.
00:37:19
Speaker
Now, I get the sense, and Antonio, you can give me your um idea just of your your gut feeling, or if if you have some solid data, that's also fine. But I tend to get the feeling that spending power is kind of growing the most, you know, disposable incomes are growing the most.
00:37:36
Speaker
in eastern China. So this is Shanghai, Jiangsu province, Zhejiang province. And that disposable income is maybe in relative terms, not as high in Guangdong and in northern China, obviously western China, much less as well.
00:37:52
Speaker
What is your general sense if you if you if you can share with us a bit of your, yeah how you see the markets regionally? um Actually, i it's It's no doubt that cities like Shanghai, Beijing, that they have there's there's large spending power.
00:38:10
Speaker
But if you look at the tendency right now, for example, where are hotel companies in China um trying to focus now, it's more on third and fourth tier cities because there is um that sophistication that I mentioned at the beginning of the Chinese tourist and that disposable income.
00:38:27
Speaker
um it's shifting from it's from from the the the traditional um the traditional areas to to new areas. So um I wouldn't i would i would you know i wouldn't um underestimate the capacity of of of these third and fourth tier cities.
00:38:46
Speaker
um If you look at the expansion plan of of companies like Marriott, Accor, Intercontinental, actually these are the cities that they are now they are now targeting. they're not necessarily, I mean, for for opening of hotels, they're not necessarily targeting anymore for high-end luxury hotels.
00:39:03
Speaker
um They're more looking at four-star, even three-star. um But there is a lot of capacity. And also the people who are in these in these provinces, um which haven't been so exposed to um ah to foreign destinations, they are wanting now to go out and to to to spend money.
00:39:23
Speaker
So that I think is is is is actually quite quite interesting. And another segment that I would also mention is the is the silver generation here in China.
00:39:34
Speaker
um ah China, unfortunately, is is as countries like Japan or or Spain, um It's getting older and older. um There's not so much new babies born. And it is, you know, it it is a country that is becoming a third generation a third um ah silver generation country. And these people have time and they do have money to spend. So that is also a segment that is extremely that is extremely interesting.
00:40:02
Speaker
um Some years ago, even in Spain, we looked at at trying to open the Spanish market i in low season and ah to attract tourists to come over to our to our destinations and in in those ah in those low seasons to attract international tourists.
00:40:17
Speaker
We have in Spain a program for um elderly people, people who are retired. The government actually does subsidies um in in low season to put them in in in in in these destinations. And we're trying to do the same thing with international guests.
00:40:31
Speaker
so i would look I would still look at third and fourth tier cities, and I would definitely, definitely look at the the the Chinese silver generation ah for a great a great opportunity.
00:40:44
Speaker
that's That's for sure. Well, that's, yeah, that's very interesting. Well, Antonio, we we promised you 20 to 30 minutes. We've done ah significantly more than that, but I'd like to really thank you for that because this really was so interesting.
00:41:02
Speaker
i I myself have certainly learned lot from from ah your opinions and perspectives on this. So, yeah, thank you very much for your time. And yeah, we hope to have you again in the future when we can see maybe like six months from now and see how if things have changed and shifted again. But really, thank you so much for your time.
00:41:23
Speaker
Michael-Chan, thank you very much. This was this was super, super interesting. and And yeah, maybe six months. China changes so much. So in six months, I'm sure yeah there's going to be a lot of new things that we could that we can talk about.
00:41:34
Speaker
Thank you very, very, very much for inviting me to this ah to this podcast. Great. Thank you. Keep well.
00:41:51
Speaker
or contact us on our LinkedIn profile by searching for Create Consulting China. We look forward to hearing from you.