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Superman II (1980)
241 Plays2 years ago
Superhero Cinephiles is back with a bunch of new episodes! Nic Baldwin returns to talk about a mostly-good movie (for a change). In this episode, we discuss the troubled production of Superman II, compare the Donner and Lester versions, and discuss the strengths and faults of each version.
Listen to Nic on the In Love With Movies podcast or follow him on Twitter
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
Patrons get to listen to episodes before everyone else and they also get access to my exclusive companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. If you want to join in, please consider supporting us through Patreon!
PARAGONS OF EARTH is a comic book project I’m developing with Thomas Deja and Eric Johns. You can support the project by visiting crowdfundr.com/paragonscomic.
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Transcript
Introduction and Comic Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey guys, before we get into the episode, I wanted to tell you a little bit about Paragons of Earth, the exciting new superhero comic I'm working on with Thomas DJ and Eric Johns. For this comic, we've unearthed a number of obscure and forgotten Golden Age superheroes, plucked them from the depths of the public domain, and completely redesigned and reinvented them for the modern day. It's an exciting cast of characters, and we're throwing them up against the threat of a Lovecraftian apocalypse.
00:00:24
Speaker
It's got action, it's got drama, it's got alternate dimensions and alien worlds, and it's even got a giant shark and Hawaiian shirt. What else could you want? But in order to make this comic a reality, we need your help. The comic is crowdfunding now, and you can help support it by going to crowdfunder.com slash paragonscomic.
00:00:42
Speaker
That's Crowdfunder Without the E dot com slash Paragons Comic. You'll be able to find that link in the show notes, so please double check if you didn't quite get it. Please help make this comic a reality. We are counting on your support. And now, on with the show.
00:01:12
Speaker
reason with me once again. My son, I have tried to anticipate your every question. This was one I'd hoped you would not ask. My attachment, um, the feelings which I have developed for a certain human being have deeply affected me, Father.
00:01:42
Speaker
You cannot serve humanity by investing your time and emotion in one human being at the expense of the rest. The concepts are mutually exclusive. And... if I no longer wish to serve humanity... Is this how you repay their gratitude? By abandoning the weak the defenseless the needy fall for the sake of your selfish pursuits. Selfish?
00:02:12
Speaker
After all I've done for them, will there ever come a time when I've served enough? At least they get a chance for happiness. I only ask as much. No more. Yours is aha, happiness. The fulfillment of your mission, the inspiration you must have felt. You must have felt that happiness within you. My son, Shirley, you cannot deny that feeling. No. I cannot.
00:02:42
Speaker
any more than I can deny the other, which is stronger in me, Father. So much stronger. Is there no way then, Father? Must I finally be denied the one thing in life which I truly desire?
Guest Introduction and Personal News
00:03:03
Speaker
If you will not be, Kal-El, if you will live as one of them, love their kind as one of them,
00:03:11
Speaker
then it follows that you must become one of them. Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and welcoming back another returning guest. And man, it's been a long time since we chatted. Nick, how you doing today?
00:03:34
Speaker
I'm doing quite well, Perry, thank you very much. Yeah, I'm glad you reached out to say, hey, have you thought about what you want to do next? Because I actually was and I just hadn't reached out the other way. So yeah. Yeah, it's been a while. It was crazy when we were talking just before we just got off before we started recording and how long it's been since the last time we had you on the show. And it doesn't feel like it had been that long ago. And then I realized like, man, I got to reach out to Nick and see if he wants to come back on.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah. I can't think of how long it was specifically, but I know listeners, I'm sure you can look back, uh, to, you know, whenever our IPD was last posted and that will be the length of time approximately, uh, between this episode and that one. So more or less. Yeah. Uh, so how are you doing? Sorry. I just, uh, why don't you tell people a little bit about remind people who you are since it has been a minute.
00:04:28
Speaker
Sure. Sure thing. Uh, yeah. So I am, uh, when I'm at Nick loves movies and I see L U V love, uh, on Twitter and Instagram and all the many, many social apps now these days, but my wife and I host a podcast called in love with movies.
00:04:44
Speaker
which we've been happy to have Perry on in the past before as well. So we talk movies over there and then we talk about relationships and just sort of get to know each other and get to know our guests through our love of movies and our experiences in relationships. And as you and I were just talking before we started recording, that nature of that podcast may start to shift towards parenting over the next year or two since my wife and I are expecting our first in March.
00:05:12
Speaker
Good, congratulations on that again, which again, we were talking about that off mic. Yeah, and me with two of my own, I'd be happy to come back on it to talk more about that stuff. I'd love that, yeah. And yeah, it's a great show. You guys should listen to it. The thing that I love being on it was getting a chance to talk to Danny because one of the things that a lot of people who've been on the show say like, yeah, Nick's great, but man, Danny's so much fun.
00:05:39
Speaker
Yes, that is, that's kind of, that's my experience as well. She's the talent and I'm the editing and everything like that. I'm just here to hold her shine, so. So we do have a good movie to talk about today, which is unusual from most of the times you've been on the show in the past. But before we get to that, what are you kind of interested in lately? What's been grabbing your attention?
Current Interests: Games and Shows
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah, uh, so actually, um, lately I've been playing, so those who follow me know I'm a video gamer and I've been playing a lot of a Jedi survivor. I don't know if you've played that one yet, but, uh, the Cal Kestis, uh, two, two, two games in the series. And so I'm about halfway through that, I think. And.
00:06:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's been my video game time. And then today, since Danielle happens to be out of town visiting friends, I've been watching what's posted so far of Generation V, the new The Boys Amazon spinoff show. So more of that superhero stuff with a side of hefty helping of gore and sexual situations.
00:06:47
Speaker
Nice. Yeah, I just I didn't realize that that had that was even being made I had somehow that had just completely fallen under my radar and then I was on YouTube and I'm looking at a bunch of trailers and catching up on stuff and I saw Gen V I'm like, all right, let's see what this is and then I'm like, wait a minute. That's a Homelander statue. I'm like, and then I realized it's a it's a boy's spinoff. So I haven't checked it out yet, though, but I have it does look pretty interesting. I've been hearing some good stuff about it since it came out. So I am looking forward to getting to that.
00:07:18
Speaker
soon but for me what I've been into and you mentioned the the new Jedi game I haven't played that yet is that on PS5 it is it is that's and that's how I have it so yeah yeah I think I'm behind reason why yeah I've got to I still have to get a PS5 and I've been watching the prices yeah I've been watching the prices waiting for him to come down and
00:07:43
Speaker
And you can do all the PS4 stuff on the PS5, so I think I'm just going to sell my PS4 and use it to fund the PS5 when it gets to that point. But they've got that game. You've got Spider-Man 2 coming out. They've got the Wolverine game coming out. And oh, Final Fantasy VII Rebirth. So when I saw the latest trailer for Rebirth, I told my wife, I'm like, I have to get a PS5 in the next year.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah. And Final Fantasy is never my big thing, but I know it's a, it's like, obviously a huge franchise. And I think Final Fantasy seven is the one that was like, I actually did play on the original PlayStation back with a friend. Right. Cause that's cloud, I think. Isn't it? Yes. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So I'm sure their retelling of that will be fantastic too. Yeah. Well, this is the second part. Like the first part came out on the PS4, like, like
00:08:35
Speaker
two or three years ago now. And it was amazing. It was like, it covered like the first up to the end of Midgard. And at the end of it, like it for the most part of the game, it's just kind of like they're retelling the story of like, okay, this is pretty cool. You know, nothing really different now. But it but it's cool to see it in the updated graphics. It's cool to try the new battle system and all that. And then when they got to the end, there was a twist at a complete edit. And it started getting very meta and it started playing with like the idea of time and all this kind of stuff. I'm like, Oh,
00:09:02
Speaker
So it's not just a straight remake. They're they're playing around with stuff. And so it's really cool Awesome. That does sound neat So I'm looking forward to that But what I've been interested in lately is last night I saw the premiere of Loki season two, okay.
Discussion on 'Loki Season 2'
00:09:21
Speaker
Yep, which was From from the conference I mentioned. So yes continue
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I love seeing Kei-Hoo Kwon as OB. He was probably my favorite part of the show so far. Easily. But that's pretty much it for me. That and I also, I've been reading on a recommendation from my buddy's podcast, Anthony Desiado, Superman Red and Blue.
00:09:51
Speaker
Um, they had covered that a while ago and I finally picked it up on sale and started reading it and immediately started falling in love with it. It's this great collection of like just these standalone Superman stories, all of them colored in shades of red and blue. And it's just a really cool exploration of the character. So if anyone hasn't checked that out yet, I definitely recommend seeing that. Yeah, I'm going to have to start exploring more. Um, I recently got a,
00:10:19
Speaker
and iPads that we could watch more like stuff like that when we're traveling and TV shows, but also so that I could read more of my comics. Because I think you and I have talked about this before, the experience of reaching the point where your floppies, as much as you love them, are taking up too much room. And so you have to start moving into the digital sphere and being a little bit more selective about what you take.
00:10:42
Speaker
Absolutely, yes. It's difficult to keep up with stuff. And especially me here being in Japan, not only the size issue, but just access issues. I can't get comics delivered here. It costs more to ship them than it would for to actually buy the comics themselves.
00:11:00
Speaker
which is bad enough because they're getting expensive these days. Yeah, they are. They are. But anyway, that's a that Superman red and blue is a nice segue into talking about today's movie.
Superman Nostalgia and Influences
00:11:10
Speaker
And it's also pretty cool timing because this is the first episode that we're back on after I took out
00:11:16
Speaker
brief hiatus with the SCP classic and the show started off years ago with a discussion of Superman the movie and today as we come back after hiatus we're finally talking about Superman 2. So that's going to be what we're going to dive into today. So Nick first off why don't you tell us a little bit about your history with Superman?
00:11:39
Speaker
So first off, I have to say, I feel honored. I did not realize that was going to be the case with the timing of this, and that's fantastic. I'm super excited, super honored to be a part of that. I'm looking forward to hearing more of those classic episodes that you curate as things go on, since I'm also an avid listener. But my history with Superman is, I think, a lot of people of our generation, I really can't remember of time when I don't remember Superman existing somewhere in my consciousness.
00:12:08
Speaker
Um, and for me, that's largely the 1978 movie originally. Uh, and as I was thinking about this movie, Superman two and others, I realized I, so that I was born in 87. Yeah, that sounds right. And so if this wasn't out in 80, you've got Superman 78 that like they were existing, right? They were to the point where 10 years later they were playing together back to back on, you know, the cheap TV channels. So actually.
00:12:35
Speaker
I in my head kind of jumbled these two movies together. Like they just kind of coexist and there are scenes, um, you know, of Zod and things of that nature that like in my head exist in the first movie, even though they don't, uh, it's just all mixed and mumbled together. So that's my history with the Superman sort of mythos. And I'm also someone who happens to be.
00:13:00
Speaker
personally very much uh i'm inspired and most interested in the sort of version of superman that i think we see in the 78 movie you know through comic history especially there's been some changes there's been some cool interesting explorations you know you've got your superman red and blue which i haven't read but i know is a
00:13:15
Speaker
sort of difference of his powers and things of that nature. And you've also got some cool explorations. But the one that I identify most with is sort of the Captain America-esque, the truth justice in the American way, the everyman, the golly gee whiz, the social warrior who can stand up to the worst evil forces in humanity, but because he's literally Superman, he can just do that and has the strength to do so. So yeah, that's my personal preferred Superman.
00:13:46
Speaker
So I just want to make a note for, so the Superman red and blue thing, that collection I was talking about, it's not connected to the the split when he had the energy power. So just just want to clarify, I'm not talking about I went back and read the energy powers thing. No, this was a it's a recent collection, just a bunch of like short comics featuring Superman and classic Superman classic powers, all that. So it's not anything from the from that from that thing. So I just wanted to make that bit of clarification. But
00:14:13
Speaker
Uh, like you, I also don't really remember a time when Superman has not existed. Um, I had, my family had Superman, the movie on VHS and I watched that tape so many times the damn thing broke. So that gives you a sense of like how much that character meant to me as a kid. Um, actually when we're coming back now, uh, it's funny, you said it, we actually did not intend for this to be the first episode. We had another one scheduled to record yesterday, but
00:14:42
Speaker
That has had to reschedule so it just all kind of coincidentally worked out where we're talking about Superman 2 for the for the comeback It was meant to be absolutely yes and
00:14:57
Speaker
And yeah, we didn't have Superman 2, but I had seen it on TV and stuff like that. I'd seen it on rental video and all that as a kid, but I didn't really have clear memories of it. I had jumbles of images, just like you were saying, too. And I don't think it was until I was in high school that I actually sat down and watched it and put it all together for the first time.
00:15:20
Speaker
years but I had gone through kind of a phase where I think a lot of comic readers probably do where when you're a kid you think Superman is really cool and then when you get into and then when you get into the teenage years you're just kind of like oh man Superman's so lame Batman's the cool one.
00:15:36
Speaker
And then eventually I came around again, a big part thanks to my late co-host, Derek Ferguson. He was a big Superman fan. I was talking with him at the time. And also one of my teachers, Bernie Gerstmeyer, who's also been a guest on the show, talked about, was a big Superman fan all throughout high school when I was in high school. And so that kind of made me say like, let me go check it out again, which happened to be like the Loeb Kelly era of Superman, which was
00:16:03
Speaker
which brought me back into the fold and made me a fan of the character all over again. So I had gone through that kind of evolution with him. And I still love the Christopher Reeve version, but nowadays I'm thinking that Tyler Hoechlin on Superman and Lois is probably my favorite version of the character.
00:16:21
Speaker
I can understand that. I actually am partial to my memories of Brandon Rabb, who listeners may know actually from... That's the name of the actor, I think, who plays the character on DC Legends of Tomorrow, but he also played Superman in... Brandon Rabb.
00:16:41
Speaker
Ralph. Thank you. I said, Rab. I think that's the kid I knew in high school. Yeah. Brandon Ralph.
Favorite Superman Portrayals
00:16:46
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, I actually really enjoy Superman Returns, which actually coincidentally has kind of an interesting tie to this movie in some ways, which we may or may not get into. But.
00:16:58
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. I mean, I think it's like, it's the Christopher Reeves, but I don't know, just something a little bit more. And it might actually, honestly, especially after my rewatch today, because I was watching this one today, I'm like, just feels dated. Like, I mean, I really like Christopher Reeves. I like what he, you know, the kind of like version of the character as it's written. And I think he did a good job, but it just feels a little too dated for me at this point. So.
00:17:20
Speaker
No, I definitely understand that. And yeah, I love Brandon Routh as well. You know, Superman Returns definitely has problems with it, but I thought the one problem that it did not have was him. Like he was great. And then when we got to see him in Crisis on Infinite Earth, you know, reprising the character and, you know, really kind of embodying him. I maybe wish we got to see like, you know,
00:17:59
Speaker
He's drawing too much attention to himself when he's being like this bumbling mouth. And you can't picture this guy as like being taken seriously by any newspaper editor ever. And you can't picture him as an investigative reporter or anything like that. He's just way too cartoonishly bumbling, I felt. Whereas Brandon Routh is like, you know, very
00:18:05
Speaker
him have a longer tail
00:18:21
Speaker
He fades into the background. He's like the ultimate wallflower and it's like you never so, you know You don't like the famous scene from the wire with string or bell saying like, you know Are you taking notes on a fucking criminal conspiracy and he tears the paper out and he throws it away? You could picture Clark Kent sitting in the background of that scene Brad and Ralph Clark Kenton then just kind of like quietly moving over and picking the paper out of the trash bin And nobody would have noticed and nobody see was there exactly. Yeah, so I'm like, that's why perfect as an investigative reporter and
00:18:50
Speaker
cars honking at him as he's crossing the street or you know over a very obvious their skin rug like that happened to this one as I was watching today because I'd completely forgotten I was like oh my god that is just and yes no one would believe that person that person could not melt into the back of a room so
00:19:10
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. There are definitely some aspects. I mean, like when it comes to playing Superman, Christopher Reeve is still like the gold standard. But when it comes to Clark Kent, like there are other versions that I definitely prefer.
Exploring 'Superman II' Versions
00:19:23
Speaker
Before we get too much into it, so this movie has a lot of different versions. So which version did you end up watching for today?
00:19:30
Speaker
That is a solid question. As far as I understand it, it is the theatrical cut because as I'm sure you would know, and then listeners who are Superman fans will know there's a Donner cut. I think there are others. I did not realize until I opened the package for the first time today, I recently got a 4k version of all of the Superman movies and it was a package deal I saw on Amazon or something anyway.
00:19:52
Speaker
I bought it thinking, cool, all four of the, you know, Superman movies, half of which are good. And then when I opened it today, I realized the Donner Cut is its own 4K in that package. And I had aspirations of watching both, but I did not manage to find the time with other things that I have to do today, unfortunately. So the original theatrical cut that starts with our hero, so to speak, his mother, you know, sort of the
00:20:22
Speaker
We've got Zod and then when we're first on Earth, we've got the terrorists at the Eiffel Tower. That's the version that I watched. I think the beginning of the Donner Cut is different. So that's something else I was going to say when I'm saying I confused sort of the first two movies. Growing up,
00:20:39
Speaker
I never owned them and I don't think I had ever watched them from start to finish like yourself until I was at least in high school. And then, you know, in like the end of my high school, middle of whatever, the the the Donner Cut became a thing. And then so I think half the times that I've watched this movie, I've been watching the Donner Cut whether I realize it or not.
00:20:59
Speaker
And so now even more so, there's like all of these things just sort of jumbled in my brain that are all three of these movies. But yeah, that's my long-winded way of answering your question. I watched the theatrical version for today.
00:21:14
Speaker
actually kind of glad you did because I did watch the Donner Cut that's the version I have I don't have the I used to have the theatrical version but when when I got the Donner Cut I ended up selling it because I do prefer the Donner Cut for the most part although we'll get into something some places where that falls short as well
00:21:30
Speaker
There have been so many different versions of this movie, not only the Donner Cut and the Theatrical Cut, but there are different broadcast television versions that use a lot of like 24 extra minutes that they throw into it.
00:21:46
Speaker
Oh, like part of that unused 24 minutes was used by ABC for its version. Other versions that ABC had on had, you know, other person other versions of it, the 146 minute extended cut that was shown internationally. So
00:22:05
Speaker
There are a bunch of different versions of it, and most of them are small changes. I think the Donner Cut is probably the biggest change. There's also been a restored international cut released by fans through a lot of fan sites that include stuff from a bunch of different international versions, and they kind of reinserted them in different parts of it.
00:22:29
Speaker
But for my part, I generally preferred the Donner cut, and that was one that was almost considered lost to time.
Production Controversy of 'Superman II'
00:22:39
Speaker
for people who don't know the story here. Richard Donner was shooting Superman and Superman 2 back to back. And the producers of the movie were the father and son team, the Salkins. And they had a lot of problems with Donner during the production of the movie. And he was going over budget and over time. So they had actually
00:23:03
Speaker
So the way that Superman the movie ends, with him going back in time and all that to save Lois, that was actually originally supposed to be the ending of Superman II. But when they ended up going over schedule, he had to push back the schedule for all the Superman II scenes, and he had to focus on finishing Superman the movie to get it in time for its release date, and so he decided, okay, we'll put the
00:23:27
Speaker
the time travel ending at the end of Superman the movie and then when we get when we get to Superman 2 we'll figure out a different ending for that right we have to write a different ending for that and then he got fired before he got a chance to get to that part so
00:23:42
Speaker
The, we don't know what he would have done if he had gotten a chance to direct Superman to himself. But during production he was working with, I think he was an assistant director, Ernest, or something like that Richard Lester was his name and Lester was
00:23:58
Speaker
When things got so bad between Donner and the Salkins, Lester ended up being kind of like a go-between between them. So he'd be going like back and forth, trying to like, and then eventually the Salkins got to this point where they got fed up with Donner and they fired him. And then they brought on Richard Lester to finish Superman II. Now the director's guild, they've got rules for director and credits and all that. So like for someone to be a director on a movie, they have to direct it a certain percentage of the movie.
00:24:28
Speaker
And the Salkins didn't want Donner's name on the movie. So they had Lester reshoot a bunch of scenes and that caused some issues too because Gene Hackman refused to come back under Richard Lester. He refused to come back at all. So they had to get body doubles for him, which is very obvious when you're watching the theatrical cut. Like it's very obvious when Gene Hackman is not there. They even had to overdub his voice with some very questionable Gene Hackman impersonators.
00:24:58
Speaker
Margot Kidder's hairstyle changed, so she's got like a different hairstyle from like cut to cut in some instances. Notice that when I was watching. Yeah.
00:25:07
Speaker
And also, Donner had a much more serious take on Superman. Even though, you know, you look back on Superman in the movie, there's definitely some campiness in there, especially when it comes to Luther and Otis and all that. But the Superman stuff is played pretty straight, right? Like Christopher Reeve plays it very straight. Like that, one of my favorite lines in that movie is when Lois is interviewing him and he says, I'm here to fight for truth justice in the American way. And she laughs at him. And he just looks at her like she's,
00:25:37
Speaker
Like, she's crazy. And you believe his earnestness. Like, it doesn't sound campy when he says that. Right. Lex Luthor and Otis, on the other hand, they cap it up a little bit too much for my taste in that movie. But the Salkins liked the campiness, and they wanted more of that. So Lester had a lot of stuff in there that was very campy. Like, when the three Kryptonian villains invade a small town,
00:26:05
Speaker
He commented in interviews about that scene. He's like, that is like the most stereotypical view that a non-American would have of an American small town. It was just so ridiculous and over the top.
00:26:19
Speaker
Another scene when Superman is, this one's burned in my memory, when Superman is facing off against the Kryptonians in Metropolis. And they start, they start blowing, blasting him with their super breath. And then there are these cutaways to like these really goofy scenes, like a woman in roller skate being blown back the other way. And scream cone falling back into a guy's face, just like this really stupid campy shit. It just got ridiculous.
00:26:44
Speaker
I made note of that when I was watching, because I had in advance sort of been like, once I discovered that there was, I had both cuts in my power and had to decide which one to watch first. I kind of looked for the differences quickly online. And so as I went into this, I was thinking to myself, man, this really, I'm sure we're not the first ones on the internet to say this, but you get the ties to sort of the Snyder cut versus the Wheaton cut of Justice League. There's also this distinction of there being much more
00:27:13
Speaker
Frankly, out of place comedy and silliness in both of the original theatrical releases in those cases. And yeah, because I had that already in my mind, I was doing the same thing when I was seeing scenes like that, that just absolutely ridiculous. Now, a lot of people, they say that even before the Donner Cut, a lot of people would say that, you know, Superman 2 was actually their favorite of the Superman movies.
00:27:38
Speaker
Which I always found baffling because even after I saw the Donner cut too, I still think the 78 version is far superior to both of these. But where do you fall
Comparing 'Superman' and 'Superman II'
00:27:49
Speaker
on that? What do you think about this within the other Superman movies? So I actually think when I was younger, I would have absolutely told you that Superman 2 was my favorite.
00:28:00
Speaker
And I think looking back on it now, having watched it today, and knowing that at least my earlier viewings would have definitely been, you know, the theatrical books, like we said, the Donner didn't exist even, you know, when you and I were younger, or the versions that were playing, you know, on network television. But I think now, because I have a note even in my notebook, it's like, it's funny how, especially when you're a kid,
00:28:22
Speaker
Story doesn't matter. How we get from one scene to the next doesn't matter. As long as we can clearly identify our good guys and our bad guys, you can have fond memories of said movie, whereas this time I was watching and I was like, Zod is not nearly as cool as I thought he, I remembered him to be. The cronies, yeah, there's just comically bad things. And yeah, I literally looked up what I gave Superman, or 78,
00:28:52
Speaker
on a letterbox because i was like we watched it a couple years ago for our podcast and i was like what did i give it is like and i still give that a four point five i think i might put superman two now at like a three or three point five like it is. Granted better from better than three and four but it is not better than one in my humble opinion.
00:29:13
Speaker
No, yeah, I agree completely. And I think at some point, maybe I would have also felt that Superman 2 is the better one, but over time, it's just that, yeah, Superman 2 is, Superman is just such a perfect distillation of that character at that time as well.
00:29:44
Speaker
or the weird hand laser blast or whatever that was about. I'm just like, every time I saw that, I'm like, what is going on? Superman's got all these powers to begin with. You don't need this stuff here. And I like, I was even thinking about this after the fact, because so like this is, I was writing down and I know you said, normally we do bad movies. And I was like, yeah, and this will be a really good one for once. And I'm now watching this and being like,
00:29:57
Speaker
And also just some of the stuff in here like the the additional powers they give him like the
00:30:06
Speaker
But did I pick a good one? Because it's like the others where you're sort of like, you can see how there was something good and the potential was there. And the ultimate execution maybe didn't quite land that bird. Yeah. Like, uh, I don't know. Maybe I'm trying to think to myself, like, did Zod exist in the comics beforehand? I know sometimes they do weird things and they try to play with his, um, his powers, but like Zod has telekinesis out of nowhere. Superman had a forget me not magical kiss.
00:30:36
Speaker
And you're just like, what? This doesn't even come in the sort of like same family. It's not even the same ballpark as all of his other powers. How did somebody think you just write whatever the hell they felt like and that everybody'd be okay with it? Yeah. I temporarily forgot about the amnesia kiss. So thank you for reminding me of that. You might need to have your wife give you one now so you can forget it again.
00:31:07
Speaker
Um, but one of the things I do like about the Donner Cut is the, um, well, first off, they bring back Marlon Brando. Cause that was another thing is that Brando refused to have his scenes in the Lester version. So they had, um, so they brought in the actress who played his mother instead. And she had done all the scenes when like Clark is talking about giving up his powers and all that. Um, that you feel that absence. Yeah.
00:31:31
Speaker
It's so much better watching this and the Brando stuff is one of the best restorations because you get to see all those scenes that you had missed before.
00:31:43
Speaker
Although it gets a little bit confusing because the Donner Cut kind of breaks its own mythology a little bit because the whole thing in Superman the movie and even in this movie in the Donner Cut when he's talking to Marlon Brando, Jor-El, Jor-El is interacting with him. He's an artificial intelligence. He can respond to questions. But at the beginning of the movie, Lex Luthor breaks into the Fortress of Solitude and starts using these crystals and it's
00:32:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, but this time it was, it was Brando and it's like all prerecorded and stuff like that. I'm like, wait, this doesn't make any sense now because, so is it just, are there two versions of, of Jor-El at the, at the fortress? Like, how does he bring in the artificial intelligence one? And how does he just bring the prerecorded one? So that was kind of a weird thing that I thought, and it had the same problem in Superman II, Superman Returns as well. When Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor goes back in the fortress and it's all like, it's like all prerecorded stuff.
00:32:32
Speaker
And in the theatrical cut, they had a different Kryptonian guy, you know, providing all this information.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten that piece, but that makes complete sense. And in the theatrical, there's almost this weird, um, middle between those two, cause he's playing with the crystals and causes the librarian to show up. But then at other times he's got the mother there and then the mother's explaining things and he's sort of like asking questions, uh, almost just rhetorically out loud. You know what I mean? Or to miss Tesla there. And then, uh,
00:33:15
Speaker
the recording starts to seemingly maybe answer that but then he says things like you know did i ask the right question or oh now i've asked the right question because then he starts kind of interacting with it but the questions and the responses don't one hundred percent match up so it's just like this weird in between the two versions of the sort of established.
00:33:34
Speaker
canon, and it just makes it even more confusing. Yeah, yeah. One of the things I do like is the first scene we see with, well, there are two things I like too, because Donner's version restores the original idea where when Superman deflects the missile into space,
00:33:51
Speaker
That ends up striking the the phantom zone container, whatever it is, which again, I think is a weird thing. But and that's how they get free. So Superman inadvertently releases them from the Phantom Zone, which I thought was a nice little touch, right? The whole idea of like unintended consequences and all that. Whereas in this one, it's it's from the it's from the terrorist or something, I believe, right in the theatrical cut.
00:34:13
Speaker
It's a missile in the Donner Cut, is that what you're saying? Yeah, so it's the missiles from the first Superman movie.
00:34:22
Speaker
Ah, okay, okay, okay, that, yes, that makes more sense. In this one, they kind of do the same thing, except to me, if it's a missile that can keep flying, that's, you know, my brain accepts it better. This one, yeah, it's the terrorists in Paris have a hydrogen bomb that they're going to blow up on the Eiffel Tower, which like for just so many reasons,
00:34:47
Speaker
And it's clear that it's just like, ah, we're obsessed with hydrogen bombs and nuclear power and things like that because it's the 70s and the 80s. So we can't think about anything else.
00:34:58
Speaker
But then he like it's locked in an elevator From them and so he to save everyone like throws that into space and then it sort of they showed exploding somewhere in space and The the distance is not entirely clear but it seems to me like it has to be close that the Phantom Zone disc is like
00:35:22
Speaker
just in Earth's orbit, basically. And then, yeah, the explosion of a hydrogen bomb in space somehow, you know, reverberates to break the the Phantom Zone. So I'm glad that you're a fan of it, because that storyline I wrote, I was like, this is absurd. What are the chances that that Phantom Zone would be flying by there? And then also when his mother is the one who's explaining how that works, and the fact that
00:35:47
Speaker
Your father, you know, these were these criminal elements and we created, our scientists created the Phantom Zone. You should know there's only one thing that might possibly break it and it's what you would call a hydrogen bomb. And it's just like, calm on.
00:36:06
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree with you. It is ridiculous. And even in the Donner Cut, I prefer the Donner Cut version of that scene. But honestly, I think the better way to do this is not have it conveniently flying by Earth at that exact moment, because that is...
Phantom Zone Villains' Release Debate
00:36:22
Speaker
It is comically coincidental. What I think would have been better is you've got all this technology in the fortress anyway, have a device, just like in the comic books, there's a Phantom Zone projector. There's a device that opens a portal to the Phantom Zone. Have Lex Luthor breaking in the fortress and find out about the villains and then use the projector and release them. That would make so much more sense. And you've got all the elements right there in that seat and they don't do that very simple thing.
00:36:50
Speaker
Wow, I mean, yeah, I mean, you fixed it. You fixed it. And I think that you maybe explained the only reason I could think of tied to obsession with Adam Goms at the time of why they did it the way they did, which is the unintended consequences element. And I'm with you, though, having it be the thing that ties back to the first movie and having it be that rocket from there as opposed to
00:37:12
Speaker
some random thing from terrorists that if they'd have blown this bomb up they would have clearly been blowing themselves up as well like um but yeah i think it's the whole like ah you know we think we understand these weapons but you know we never know what evil we're actually unleashing from them um right yeah yeah i'm with you luther in the the fortress of solitude a way better way to do that yeah yeah um but another thing that the donner cut restores is an opening scene where uh lois
00:37:41
Speaker
figures out that Clark is Superman like she's looking at and this I'm torn about this scene because there are things I absolutely love about it and things I absolutely hate about it. The thing I love about it is the fact that you know we see Lois using her brain like she's looking at this picture of Superman she looks at Clark she starts drawing the glasses over Superman's picture and and then she realizes holy crap and
00:38:03
Speaker
So good, yeah. And then she shows it to, but what I don't like about it is when she then says, she's like, you're not gonna let me die. And then she jumps out the window to prove that he's Superman. And then he does this and then he races down there and he makes it so that he slows her down with his super breath. He releases the awning and then she bounces off of that and falls on the food cart. And he zips back up to the office and super speed and he looks out the window and he's like, Lois, what did you do? That is...
00:38:34
Speaker
So I don't know how much you remember the theatrical. So basically the same thing happens in the theatrical. Yeah, right. I was just going to say, except there's like a Niagara Falls element where she says, you know, I figured it out. I'm going to jump out of this. I'm got, I believe in it enough and then throws herself in the water. And he's kind of conically like feigning that he's running, but clearly obviously not running. Like, you know, similarly laser eyes, something to floaty.
00:39:03
Speaker
Yeah. If I'm remembering correctly, in my opinion, it's the same mechanism. The problem that you have with it is still there. It's still the, it's still the lowest is like, I get the, I get what they're trying to, you know, Lois is so brash and headstrong that she's, and she's so solid sold on her convictions here, but it still felt like, like I, I,
00:39:29
Speaker
As I get older, I've got mixed opinions on Margo Kidder's Lois Lane. There are times when I absolutely love her. And then there are other times when I'm just like, what are you doing? Like the scene I hate the most in Superman the movie is still the can you read my mind thing when they're flying.
00:39:47
Speaker
I get just when she's reciting that God awful poem in her mind, I'm just like, no, this is just no, no dialogue in the scene. Just have the instrumental score in the background. That's all you need. Like the whole can you read my mind thing is it always makes me cringe. Yeah. Yeah. There's choices. Choices were made. Well, especially when now we've seen other versions of Lois Lane since that are so much more
00:40:17
Speaker
you know, so much more stronger female characters like Terry Hatcher.
00:40:21
Speaker
Great for the most part, although I still have some issues with her performances as well. There's definitely some rom-com cliche stuff that she falls into in that. But Eric Adurance on Smallville, amazing. Bitsy Tullock on Superman and Lois, also amazing, even to an extent, Amy Adams. She also has that intelligence thing. She's able to figure stuff out on her own.
00:40:48
Speaker
But yeah, so when I go back to Margot here and see her going Gaga over Superman, it just feels it feels reductive. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think that that's probably a
Lois and Clark's Relationship Dynamics
00:41:03
Speaker
consequence of writers overall of the time. You know what I mean? Even in envisioning a strong female character, there has to be certain things that even a strong female character is subject to. Our most recent episode of our podcast, we were covering The Godfather, which I'm sure you know is penned by Mario Puzo, the same person who wrote the screenplay for both Superman I and Superman II.
00:41:33
Speaker
And long story short, he isn't the best for female characters having depth. So when you compare maybe to the Godfather, actually, you know, Lois Lane is...
00:41:44
Speaker
and next level, and I'm not surprised that he still makes her fall into certain tropes of Hisperia and, you know, Rom-communist, so. Well, actually, Mario Puzo, and I'm not sure how much of this is, you know, apocryphal or how much of it is true, but what I heard was that he had a gambling problem, and so he took the job to write the Superman movies because, to get out of his gambling debts, and apparently they had to, like, lock him in his hotel room so he wouldn't go down to the casino and gamble.
00:42:13
Speaker
while he was writing the, when he was writing the script. And, um, but a lot of what he wrote was apparently not very good. Like apparently it was like very campy and they didn't really like it. Um, but because he's Mario Puzo, he kept the screen credit, but most of this movie, from what I understand, it's actually Tom McElwits is, is most of what you see in the finished products.
00:42:32
Speaker
Okay, I don't even think I remember seeing that as one of the names and the credits officially speaking. He's I don't think he's credited. He's credited on the Donner Cut, I think is like a consulting producer or something like that. But he's not credited as writer, I don't believe, like something along those lines, like he had done a lot of rewrites to like, kind of like, you know,
00:42:50
Speaker
make it serviceable. It's funny you mentioned the Godfather, just a side note. I'm actually going to be covering that in my class this coming week, so I'll have to go and listen to that episode before I do, see if that brings up any new points I hadn't considered. I would love that. Yeah, my wife even brought some stuff up I'd never thought of before, so. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. Is that episode out already on your feed? Yes, that would have been the start of the most recent season for us. Okay, great.
00:43:19
Speaker
a couple of weeks now, not that long. I am so behind on podcasts, but I'll go and check that out. I hope you enjoy. I think that the Donner Cut does, there's another scene they throw in there too, which is actually a screen test. It was like the first screen test between Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder. And they insert it as an actual scene. It's the scene in the hotel room. So part of the story is Lois and Clark are assigned to go undercover at this
00:43:49
Speaker
at this Niagara Falls resort where they've apparently been bilking newlyweds out of money. And in the Lester Cut, this is how, in both versions, this is how she finds out for sure that he's Superman. In the Lester Cut, he trips and he falls into the fireplace and he doesn't burn his hand. So you're not sure you're talking about when he trips on the bearskin rug, which I do not like that version at all.
00:44:11
Speaker
But in front of the fire so that she can warm herself up after having been in Niagara Falls. So you just had like a 20 minute sequence that is all him artfully ish, managing to hide it from her. And then he just trips and falls. And I just I can't.
00:44:28
Speaker
I can't reconcile those things because in my head it's like him even the bumbling idiot version of Clark we've been talking about like that is an intentional act and if you To be an intentional act then he doesn't trip on that thing Genuinely, you know, I mean like so anyway continue. I'm sorry. I interrupted you. No, you're you're absolutely right and The the version that we get in the screen test version is you know, she pulls out a gun on him Oh
00:44:56
Speaker
And so I don't know if you remember this, but yeah, she pulls a gun on him and he, and she's like, I'm sure you're Superman. I'm going to prove it. And he's like, no, no, I'm not Superman. I'm not Superman. And then she's like, yeah, you're, the bullets going to bounce right off. He's like, no, you're going to kill me. And then she pulls the trigger and the gun goes off and he just flinches and he says, and he just shies. He takes off his glasses and he's, and she's like, I knew it. And he says, you do realize now if you had been wrong, Clark Kent would have been dead. And Lois goes with a blank.
00:45:24
Speaker
which I still have some issues with that because, you know, even though he's, he's invulnerable, wouldn't he still feel the bullet against his skin or something like that is kind of the thing I'm going back on. But, but even so I do like that better than like the bumbling. He trips and falls into the fireplace thing. Yeah. I wonder if they just, again, because we were talking about it being more serious, the Donner cut, like they thought that was too.
00:45:49
Speaker
they thought it was too serious. Cause that's, I mean, that's, that's, that's some heavy stuff when you actually stop and think about like, it's, it's bad enough that she's in both versions willing to kind of sacrifice herself potentially. But she is like, I am willing to
00:46:05
Speaker
I almost commit murder, at least, you know what I mean? Because, I mean, obviously, she knew it was a blank, and that's a really smart thing, and that's very her. But blanks can have problems, too, for one thing, as we know from recent events, but also... Well, yeah. Brandon Lee, yeah. Yeah. And you just don't know. And you, as a viewer, still have to kind of have been in that scene with her where you think she's actually going to shoot the man, and that's... Mm-hmm.
00:46:32
Speaker
like a dark place to let yourself go. So yeah, it's it's definitely a lighter version. But I'm with you. I think that sounds much more solid. And it's it shows how what great chemistry they have is like this is the first time they're appearing on camera together in this scene. And it works very well. Like they're obviously there's some problems because they had to use a screen test version. So you know, his glasses are different. He's a little bit thinner because this is before he put on all the muscle for it. So
00:46:59
Speaker
which I think actually kind of works better because it makes you think that he's wearing like a big suit to hide that he's hide his physique or something like that. But yeah, I like that scene so much better. Another thing that this does is Superman to the theatrical version created this long standing idea that persists to this day in fandom that
00:47:20
Speaker
Superman can't have sex with a human woman, right? The famous conversation from Mallrats, the famous Man of Steel, Women of Kleenex essay, and I think it was in Playboy originally, all this kind of stuff. And the thing a lot of people go to is they go to the theatrical cut because Clark gives up his powers and then he sleeps with Lois. Whereas in this movie, they flip it, right? He sleeps with her first and then he talks to Jor-El about giving up his powers.
00:47:49
Speaker
Okay. It completely takes that, it completely takes that out of it. And I thought that was, that was a pretty, it was a pretty interesting choice for, for Donner to make. Cause I don't know if that was originally in the script or, or what, but, um, I thought it was interesting that he makes this commitment to Lois first and you know, they consummate their relationship and then he decides I want to be with her. I want to stop being Superman. Yeah. I actually think I would like that better, not only because it creates, you know, like you said, a whole different, uh,
00:48:20
Speaker
conversation around whether Superman can have sex or not, which obviously the comics have treated differently at this point in, you know, sort of canon. But to me, I think
00:48:35
Speaker
it's
00:48:53
Speaker
feel the emotion for him to sort of justify that decision, if that makes sense. Like it's like, I'm just going to make this decision and then things happen after the fact versus, oh, this is real. I have this very real relationship with this person. I'm going to now take the plunge. Um, and maybe that's my, I don't know, American sensibilities or something like that. I've talked before on different podcasts about
00:49:17
Speaker
different versions of love and, you know, committed love, romantic love, intimate love. And I prefer the sort of establishing of intimate love first before making one's commitment. And so maybe it's coming through. I don't know. But yeah, it just tracks better for me that he's commit like he's sort of intimate to her and then makes that commitment in choosing to, you know, jump off. And I don't just mean intimate than like the biblical sense of everyone. I mean, like, you know, as a person.
00:49:43
Speaker
Yeah, so I definitely prefer that. And as you're citing some of these examples from the Donner Cut, I'm more and more confident that I have seen it at some point along the way.
Superman's Humanity and Relationships
00:49:53
Speaker
And if it weren't for watching it today, I think I'd be completely lost in my memory of which one was which. So I'm glad that I have one fresh and know exactly what was in the theatrical cut based upon what I saw today.
00:50:08
Speaker
Another thing I like about the the Donner version of that scene too is when Lois comes into it, right? So in both versions, right, you know, you've got in the theatrical cut, he's talking to Lara and the and the Donner cut, he's talking to Jarrell. But in the in the in the Donner version, Lois, Lois comes in and in both and she's like kind of in the background there. But in the dot cut, she's wearing the suit. She's wearing Superman shirt.
00:50:32
Speaker
Like she's only wearing the Superman shirt and then like, you know, she's like naked from the waist. So I thought that was another like, you know, kind of like, you know, maybe it was a, they thought it was a little bit too racy for a Superman movie too. Cause that further implies an added level of intimacy.
00:50:49
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like, I don't know whether it had happened in the comics. Obviously, it hadn't happened in the Superman sort of TV shows or movies by that point. But even just, you know, they go off to bed clearly in the theatrical one and but that you don't see anything versus I think, right, like the sort of coming out in a nothing but a button down shirt of your gentleman is sort of
00:51:14
Speaker
the universal sign in especially 80s movies. We just got it on. So you might be right. The two risque. Yeah. And actually, that's a good point about the comics because that wouldn't have happened in the comics by this point, because this came out and they're filming it in the late 70s. So that was still there's still very much in Silver Age territory. Lois didn't even know Clark was Superman.
00:51:38
Speaker
That didn't start coming to the fore, and they start getting into a little bit more adult situations with Lois and Clark and their intimacy. That probably did not start happening until the 90s, and probably also influenced by the aging up of a lot of the readership, but also by Lois and Clark, because they had a whole thing on Lois and Clark about them consummating their marriage and all that. Yeah, I vaguely remember that, because I was watching bits of that show too, and that makes complete sense for sure.
00:52:09
Speaker
So yeah, I think this is probably the first time where we saw them outside of like an imaginary what if or else world type of story where they actually You know, they actually consummated their relationship. So it was and That would have been you know a big thing for the the movies to take things so far beyond what the comics were doing at that time because you know you compare it to other like now that
00:52:34
Speaker
we think about that as no big deal. Like the MCU movies are drifting further and further apart from the comics every time they come out, right? They killed Iron Man, Steve Rogers is gone, you know, all this kind of stuff. So they're purposely bringing, they're finding different ways to adapt this material. Or even, you know, Superman and Lois is another version. The Flash, they've done a lot of, taken a lot of liberties with stuff. Pulling stuff away from the comics is, they use the comics as a starting point and they just kind of go off and veer off into their own different directions.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Which I think is cool too. There's definite value in that as well. But it is funny to go back and see how much they were willing to break with established canon back then. Yeah, it makes you wonder. I mean, I guess it has everything to do with... It's the sort of reason why maybe a lot of
00:53:30
Speaker
superhero movies didn't work out well for decades, I think. Which is interesting. So it worked well in this one instance, but then there's a lot of other places where they just sort of, it's like any other sort of
00:53:45
Speaker
poorly done adaptation for a novel or something like that. Like somebody gets the rights and then they basically decide, okay, we have the name. Now we're going to do whatever the hell we want to with this property, previously established storylines, trends, et cetera, be damned. And that's how you get up like some good things, like the idea of let's go ahead and let them get it on and have it be, you know, a sort of pushing of the envelope. But you also get things like let's just invent whatever power, you know, a cellophane,
00:54:16
Speaker
that can capture people because why not yeah I think one of the big problems with that is just like it it goes back that idea of like you know they're they're staying true to that that spirit of the characters whereas in the and the letter version it's just like oh we need some action beat here so we can't really have them do a fistfight so how about we have him throw his shield it's like okay
00:54:40
Speaker
Yeah, and it just happens. It happens so fast to the point where you would be, like, forgiven for being completely confused about where the hell he even pulled that from. Like, he sort of just, like, it happens blinking an eye, like, he pulls it off of his chest, but the S is still there otherwise, so it's not like, you know,
00:54:59
Speaker
Is it like batarangs? Does he have, you know? It's like a whole stack of them there. It's not what he always does. I'm so confused. So many questions. Well, especially because it expands and it grows. It's so ridiculous. But going back to the scene when he gives up his powers, I do have a problem with this scene in both versions because it's this idea that
00:55:23
Speaker
he can't be Superman and be Clark Kent. Like it's, you know, you can't devote your, you can't maintain your responsibilities and also be true to one person. I'm like, that's bullshit. I'm sorry, but it's just, it's bullshit. Yeah, I think maybe it's,
00:55:45
Speaker
It's our version of the hero complex and this is something I think I've been getting real personal. I'm working on in therapy. You know what I mean? This idea that to be able to take care of yourself and that includes having a close romantic relationship that is also your support structure.
00:56:03
Speaker
It's like to have that and to have anything that's truly for you, you cannot also be the ultimate hero. Like to be the ultimate hero, you must sacrifice literally every bit of like true happiness that doesn't come from, I enjoy being altruistic and taking care of other people. That is my only source of joy and happiness if I am, you know,
00:56:25
Speaker
quote unquote, the hero. And I think that's probably where it comes from. But I'm, yeah, I'm with you. I'm glad that we have sort of, I also personally think maybe that comes from versions of toxic masculinity in our culture and the idea that just be the provider and that's the only thing. And then, yeah, we have let it go and I'm with you. It's problematic at least. Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the, the more I watch, go back and watch these movies, I think that's one of the biggest problems I have with it is it
00:56:53
Speaker
It kind of takes the human element out of Superman a lot because Clark Kent in these movies is just a mask. He's just this way for Clark to blend in and to keep his ear to the ground. And a big part of that is what they were basing on at the time. That was very similar to what they were doing in the Silver Age at the time. So I understand where they were coming from with it. But looking back on it now, I'm just like, I prefer the version where I thought,
00:57:23
Speaker
Like my interpretation of Superman is there are three versions of the character. There's what I call Smallville Clark, the real Clark Kent, who he is when he's on the farm, who he is when he's with Mon Pa Kent, who he is when he's with Lois, and boys in the TV show or son singular in the comics. And there's Metropolis Clark. That's where he's wearing the glasses.
00:57:52
Speaker
He's keeping himself quiet, he's being buttoned down, like the Brandon Routh Clark cut. That's what I think of as Metropolis Clark. And then there's Superman, right? Like, Smallville Clark is the real guy. Both Metropolis Clark and Superman are masks of some kind that he wears to kind of hide who he really is. Yes, I completely agree with that interpretation, 100%. And I think, yeah, these movies, they completely lose that human element because
00:58:21
Speaker
It's just all Superman. And then when he becomes Clark Kent, he's just all bumbling. You never really get the sense of who he is as Clark Kent, the real Clark Kent. Like that's one of the things I liked about Superman, the animated series. One of the, one of my favorite episodes of that show was the late Mr. Kent. When Clark is trying to uncover this, he's trying to prove this guy who's on death row was innocent. He gets the proof, he's driving out and then the,
00:58:49
Speaker
The real perpetrator blows up his car, and there were witnesses, so he can't just come out and be like, I was okay. So he has to stay hidden and make everybody think Clark Kent is dead. And then he goes back to Smallville to see his parents.
00:59:06
Speaker
And they just get off the phone with the police and Martha's like, yes, I know, I understand, my son's dead, I heard you. And then she turns around and Clark's there at the table. And Jonathan says, he's like, well, it's not that he's at, he's not really dead, Martha. He just can't be Clark anymore. And then Clark says to him, he's like, but I am Clark. I'd go crazy if I had to be Superman 24 hours a day. Yeah, yeah. And I think,
00:59:31
Speaker
I think you're right about that and being an important element too of that there is that version of him in its sincerity. And I think it speaks to the larger human condition. And this gets at what you were saying from the start of this part of the conversation of like, they remove all of the humanity from it. Like part of the brilliance of Superman.
00:59:51
Speaker
And so this is probably getting too deep also, but he's a great Christ allegory. Literally comes from heavens, is the last son of the father that wants to protect us kind of thing, and has powers that no one can understand, and he uses them for the betterment of mankind. But the sort of importance a lot of times in the Christian mythology is that Christ is human.
01:00:20
Speaker
He is made man manifest. He is, you know, God embodied, right? But it's that he is also human aspect that makes it real, makes it matter. It's the fact that he can sacrifice. And the way Superman does that is, as you just described, has a true version of Clark that is the real him. And you get to know him as a human being. And the reason he cares about
01:00:47
Speaker
Earth. And the reason he's our sturgent protector is because he is sort of human by nurture, even if not by nature type of thing. And I think once you lose that, you lose a lot of the depth to the character, obviously. In fact, I think leaning on the Christ allegory is part of the problem a little bit. And you know, I'm coming at this from an atheistic perspective, so I might be getting stuff wrong here. But my understanding is that the way he's often depicted in the Gospels is almost
01:01:16
Speaker
as like this perfect being, right? Even though he is of man, he is still very much like the perfect man. And when you were going through that whole thing, I was thinking back to Dogma.
01:01:28
Speaker
and the movie. And one of my favorite scenes in that movie is when they're all sitting around the fire and Chris Rock says, he's like, in the Bible, Jesus suddenly goes from ages 12 to 30. 12 to 30. Where are all the apostles dealing with the missing years of his life? Why don't we see anything about his relationships with his parents, with his brothers and sisters? Like he says, Mary gave birth to Christ a virgin, but she did have a husband and he wouldn't have stuck around if he wasn't getting laid.
01:01:59
Speaker
And so it makes sense, right? It makes sense that obviously Mary and Joseph would have consummated their marriage at some point. And it makes sense that they didn't have condoms or birth control pills back then. So that would have resulted in brothers and sisters.
01:02:13
Speaker
And so, yeah. And so you got to imagine, you know, what is it like living with brothers and sisters when you're the son of God? And how do you and, you know, where is the we don't really see that part of it much from my, you know, half remembered memories of Sunday school from when my parents forced me to go. But I don't remember a whole lot of like Jesus struggling with the his humanity and his mission or all that kind of stuff. So and that's.
01:02:43
Speaker
from a storytelling perspective, I mean, maybe that's fine from a religious perspective, but from a storytelling perspective, that's a big thing to leave out. And I think these movies are really missing something when they leave those aspects of it out.
01:02:57
Speaker
I completely agree with you. So I am someone who has always had just sort of an ongoing continuous up and down relationship with my faith. At this time of this recording, yes, I would still consider myself a Christian. There's times in my life where I definitely have not been, times in my life where I've been more sure of that statement. But to address sort of what you're saying, A, I don't remember if it was the show runners or just other people in analyzing it, but that's one of the things I love about Smallville too, is it's kind of,
01:03:27
Speaker
an intentional exploration of that 12 to 30, right? Like, how did you just come out perfect or did you wrestle with that? And eventually, you know, kind of come to terms with it. And Smallville is a lot more of Clark making mistakes and sort of learning from it. And you obviously see him getting to learn from Ma and Pa Kent in that as well.
01:03:49
Speaker
And, and so one of the, some of the stories that stand out to me in terms of the gospel, because they are examples of like Christ losing his cool, so to speak, or like the, the humanity showing, uh, there's, you know, he sort of slips and, and says like, why have thou forsaken me, father? You know what I mean?
01:04:10
Speaker
There's that one big one, which everyone always talks about. And then I remember the, I can distinctly remember the, the group Young Life, kind of a really great dude. Um, but he was kind of pointing out to us, like the story of, there's one where he finds, uh, people like peddling goods or gambling or something, people dealing with money in the, the money changes out of the temple.
01:04:31
Speaker
yes thank you the temple and and like that moment where he's sort of like he is not the you know i've got my shit together i've got the facade of a superhero i've got um i'm able to keep my other cheek and that he's kicking over tables he's breaking out whips and shit like that yeah
01:04:48
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. And so I agree with you that they are not more, not as told as I think they probably should be. And the other problem that you have, and this is my problem with large organized religion, is you're also having them interpreted by humans who are flawed and believe in the faith or not.
01:05:08
Speaker
humans are flawed and we like to shit work for us. And I'm arguably doing the same thing for myself right now. But a lot of people like to just only talk about the perfect part and none of the humanity, which to me defeats the purpose. But we'll put that aside for the conversation. I agree with you, though. And that's, I think, something that's lost. Like, if it is just going to be a religion, okay, fine. We have a deity that perfect, you know, deities are perfect, right? Yeah.
01:05:33
Speaker
The reality is superheroes have to be human at the same time. And also I think about like Gen V or the boys, and we're watching that right
Christ Allegory in Superman Stories
01:05:42
Speaker
now. And it's sort of the, those shows are intentionally a satirical look of like, like very cynical, what would happen if normal people got superpowers, right? And the beauty of having the humanity of the Clark Kent, the farm Clark Kent,
01:06:01
Speaker
is he gets that, that's his true power, right? It's not the way I have all of these capabilities. It is that I have the sort of power of will to be a good human being, to want to do what's best for other people, to not use these powers to my advantage, to want to defend the downtrodden, right?
01:06:22
Speaker
he didn't see the conflict there, or see sort of the what makes that and if we just saw like, oh, you know, he's just perfect. It always happens. It's never difficult for him. I don't think I don't think I would care as much about Superman. Yeah. So I think also, again, that I think leading too much on the Christ allegory is one of the weaknesses of these two movies because
01:06:42
Speaker
Again, we also have Jor-El there who's serving in as the god figure of sorts. It kind of discounts the importance that the Kents had. My co-host, Eric, he once said that he always used to say that the greatest superhero in the DC universe is not Superman.
01:07:02
Speaker
It's Jonathan and Martha Kent because they took in this refugee baby. They raised him up as if he was their own. They gave him a living home. They gave him values. And then that's how he became Superman. It's because he was, you know, he has the powers, yeah, but the powers aren't what makes him Superman. It's the humanity that makes him Superman. That's what makes him want to help people. And I thought, and that's what I think is great about like,
01:07:29
Speaker
As much problems as I do have with Smallville, especially the later seasons, because it felt a lot like they wanted to do a Superman show, but they couldn't do a Superman show, so they just kept throwing all this stuff in there. The idea of Clark making mistakes and then learning from them, they were spinning their wheels a bunch with it, because there were times when it's just like, I remember there were some seasons where I'm like, everybody on this show is more heroic than Clark is.
01:07:55
Speaker
But when it came to that idea of Jonathan and Martha and the influence they have on him, they handled that so well, especially in those early seasons. John Schneider, his ridiculous politics aside, was my favorite interpretation of Jonathan Katz. He had that whole the gruff Midwestern values thing, but he was this good man who was doing the best he could in this impossible situation. And then we see that in extension, because I do think of
01:08:24
Speaker
Superman and Lois in a lot of ways as a spiritual successor to Smallville, we do see how much those Midwestern values that the Kent's raised him with are really so much a key to his character and why he is the person he is. And we do see him make mistakes as a man. We see him struggle like, and we'll, cause this actually does tie into Superman too. I'll get back to that in a minute, but I'm not sure. Did you see, um, the last season of Superman and Lois season three?
01:08:51
Speaker
Uh, no, I've not been watching, unfortunately, Supermanalos, but if you spoil you, you can. Okay. You have to watch season three was the best one so far, but you have to watch it. It's I'm positive you'll, you'll especially love it. Um, but there's this one scene where there's this, um, you know, his son, uh, his son, John is dating this girl and she's got this kind of like abusive father, a drug dealer, something like that. And he, um,
01:09:17
Speaker
He steals John's truck, right? And so John steals it back. And then he comes, he's like, he threatens John, he threatens Lois even. And because John comes to Lois first and he tells her about it. And then she's like, no, I'll deal with this. I don't want your father to know. She goes and he pulls a gun on Lois and he tells her you like, you know, and she goes back and then Clark finds out.
01:09:37
Speaker
And he goes up and he's about to leave the house and Lois is like, no, Clark, this isn't the job for Superman. And Clark just looks at her and he's like, he's not going. Clark Kent is going. And he goes and he confronts him as Clark Kent. And one of the things I love is that, and we'll compare this to the bully scene in the diners, because I've got some real issues with that. But one of the things I love is that Clark,
01:09:59
Speaker
does not fight him, right? He just kind of like lets him do it and he kind of like says like, you're gonna go now, you're gonna leave and you're not gonna come back. And he just, you can just even just look up that scene on YouTube. It is masterful the way Tyler Oakland plays it. And then we have the bully scene here with the diner where it's just so comical in both versions, in both versions, it's got this problem.
'Superman & Lois' Compared to 'Superman II'
01:10:24
Speaker
And in this version,
01:10:27
Speaker
And one of the things I hate about it too is like, it's fine. We see Clark lose his temper. We see him be human. I'm all for that. But what I hate about it is when Lois says to him, I want the man, because he jokes, maybe you should hire a bodyguard. And she's like, I don't want a bodyguard. I want the man I fell in love with. And he says, I do too, Lois. I wish he were here. And I'm just like, no, no, that is the complete wrong message about that scene.
01:10:54
Speaker
But unfortunately, I think you hit the nail on the head. That's the reason you and I maybe don't love it. It's the wrong message of the movie. They spend more time showing how she's in love with Superman than they spend time showing she's in love with Clark Kent. And even the Clark Kent that she could be in love with.
01:11:14
Speaker
we don't really see that much of him dropping his facade of Metropolis Clark Kent. We only see, you know, maybe, maybe that happens after he's burnt his hand or not burnt his hand and after he's not been shot, right? But like, not a lot, it's not a lot of time to establish, you know, a true intimate partnership and relationship and understanding. So yeah.
01:11:42
Speaker
Again, that is as many problems I have about Man of Steel. I did think that they did handle the idea of her and Clark developing a relationship before he becomes Superman. I thought they did a much better job in that little bit of time in that movie than they did here establishing why Lois is in love with Clark. Not with Superman, not with this idea of this perfect man, but in love with Clark himself. And that's especially, again, going back to Superman and Lois, they establish in that they do a background episode. They do a flashback episode where they show
01:12:12
Speaker
You know, they're they kind of like do little show bits and pieces from their relationship and they established right from the start. Lois liked Clark. She didn't like Superman first. She liked Clark first. She was actually suspicious of Superman, which makes total sense for a reporter. Right.
01:12:29
Speaker
Well, you've definitely sold me. I mean, I've been listening to your love of it on your podcast of your love of Superman and Lois. And it's been on my list. I think I'm one of those people who's been holding out the hope that I was going to like continue watching all of the CW shows in relative chronological order for release. And I've just reached some of the later seasons of some of the other shows that I'm like struggling to enjoy getting through. So maybe I just need to give that up and go skipping on over to Superman and Lois.
01:12:58
Speaker
Superman and Lois is not the same continuity as those other shows. Yeah, I heard it's like. Yeah, so at first it was they were kind of unsure because it came out right at the tail end of the the Arrowverse stuff and they were actually going to do a Batwoman crossover. They were planning to do, but Covid had nixed that. And so they never did the Batwoman crossover. They had a diggle appear in a few episodes working for Argus. But so that kind of that was the closest thing we got to establishing a link between them. But then the end of season two,
01:13:30
Speaker
Sam Lane, Lois, his father makes a point to the kid, the boys, he says to him, he's like, you know, we've seen other worlds that are that have superheroes in them. But on our world, it's just Superman. It's just your father. So they establish that he is the only superhero on that world. Okay, so yeah, it's completely set apart. You don't have to worry about the other CW stuff. I'm still struggling with myself. I'm, you know, I'm trying to watch the last seasons of The Flash and Supergirl. And
01:13:55
Speaker
It's hard, it's hard, it's hard, but I have to convince to finish them at some point. Yeah, crisis was really like the, I think really they should have just ended it after crisis.
01:14:08
Speaker
That's what I've heard. And I haven't even made it to crisis. I don't think. Because I got a crisis on X, which I definitely I've watched the one with the Nazi planet. You know what I mean? I saw that. Well, you saw Brandon Routh as Superman again, right? That was crisis on Infinite Earth. Oh, OK. Oh, you definitely have to see if only for Brandon Routh as Superman.
01:14:29
Speaker
Like that's like, it's like, I'm just going to skip all of the other trash and just jump ahead to the cross. Just go straight to crisis. You don't need to watch everything else that's come before. Like there's some stuff here and there that you might be a little bit like, wait, when did that happen? What was that about? But other, but for the most part, I think you can just jump right into crisis and you'll be fine. I more and more likely that's going to happen. But either way, I think I'll be watching Superman and Lois sooner. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
01:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. And then so during all this happened, we had the Kryptonian show up. And it's funny, you said that, you know, Zod's not as cool as you remember. I think Terence Snapp's performance is one of the things I like the best thing about Superman 2. I'm going to disagree with you on there. I think he does a great job as Zod, especially when
01:15:14
Speaker
They've taken over the White House and everything, and he's bored. I love that scene when Ursa looks at him, she's like, you are Lord and Master of all you serve, and he's like, as I was the day before, and the day before that, and he's just so freaking bored with the idea of rule, right? This idea that he's a general, he's a warrior, he needs worlds to conquer. That's what he wants to be doing. I love that. And then when Superman shows up, it's almost like he gets excited.
01:15:45
Speaker
That is definitely true. I would, I would agree that, um, like I didn't criticize Terence stamp's performance per se. Uh, I just like it, like it's a relative thing, right? I mean, I, I remember so cool. And then it's like, Oh, well, and maybe it's because he, you know, there's not as much for him to do as early on as you think, or it's the scenes of like,
01:16:05
Speaker
how comically they they do away with the other people but those moments his menace or I had a note too that like everyone always thinks about Neil before Zod right like that gets repeated only ways and obviously it's almost like you know Luke I am your fatherly and so we forget that that's not actually how the lines delivered
01:16:27
Speaker
It is stand before Zod. So he's like telling the president or the guy that's the fake president to get up first and then says, and now kneel before Zod. And like, it is fascinating to me how we remember things so differently, but it's like, it's almost like before memes were a thing, it was meme-ification of movie quotes.
Critique of Leadership Portrayal in Films
01:16:48
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? Like, how do you make it sized in a way that it gets the sentiment but sounds cooler and becomes more popular?
01:16:55
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, watching that movie again, it's on the scene with the president and he's like, you are not the president. No man who commands so many would kneel so easily. I'm just like, bitch, please. I can think of a dozen presidents off the top of my head who would kneel like that. Yeah, a literal super person. No, no, no, no, they're kneeling quickly. I also want to note that like, and they addressed it a little bit later and I realized this, but it's just such a very American thing too of like,
01:17:25
Speaker
that he's kneeling on behalf of the planet and it's like dude you control you know this planet yeah but we just always think of it as like oh well if earth bow or if america bows then you know we're all bowing whether we like it or not it's like
01:17:44
Speaker
especially because this is the this is the this is still the cold war going on here i'm like i mean the soviets would have had something to say about that i'm pretty sure so i thought that was i mean even maybe it would make more sense in the 90s you know when america become the sole superpower but you know in the 70s in the late 70s early 80s you still got the soviets out there and be like uh we're not kneeling before you we still got all these news we can fire off
01:18:09
Speaker
Yeah, and in fact, because they say they have a line in there about like, Oh, America is not using nuclear weapons for you know, the billion casualties, like if that became live televised, and nukes option, and the only reason we hadn't done it was to protect our citizens.
01:18:27
Speaker
Yeah, former Soviet Russia's fucking carpet bombing with H-bombs. They're going to be like, cool, you know, now the rest of the world will just have to be okay with us having attempted this because we may have killed all of America at the same time, but we were doing it to try to protect everyone from these superpowered beings. Now, one of the things that I thought that the the Lester Cut handled better was this scene when Superman appears the Daily Planet.
01:18:55
Speaker
So, you know, he says that famous line in The Lester Cut, he's like, General, would you care to step outside? Amazing line. And, you know, you're
Superman's Priority in Saving Civilians
01:19:04
Speaker
talking about Christ on Earth X. Kara repeats that line in that show when she talks to the Nazi Supergirl, right? She says, General, would you care to step outside? Perfect line. Great line. Very confrontational. I love that.
01:19:17
Speaker
but what they do in the daughter cut, he says, general, haven't you ever heard of freedom in the press? I'm like, come on. If you're gonna leave in one thing from the Lester cut, it should have been that line.
01:19:28
Speaker
I agree. Yeah. Even though it's like, cause there's part of me that was like, Oh, I bet that's supposed to be like a nod to the fact that he got his butt kicked by telling that guy. He wanted to step outside with him, uh, in the ball or the diner, which it makes me feel like that's a little icky because it's the same thing. But the funny thing is, especially the delivery of that line somehow, like that's not even the first full thought that comes to my head is the diner. It's instead the diner actually like that. You're right. But I completely forgot about that part.
01:19:58
Speaker
Because it's so well-delivered and it is such a good line and it's done with like that sense of humor about it, you know what I mean? That it's not feeling like it's an obvious nod to the other problem that he had. Well, yeah, it's both at the same time. It's authoritative, but it's also a bit tongue-in-cheek. And I think Reeve's delivery of that, it straddles that line perfectly where it doesn't sound like he's putting on airs, but it also shows that he means business in this moment too.
01:20:23
Speaker
Yeah. He's like, in all seriousness, we're not going to do this in here. Let's go. Yeah. And then we get to the battle in Metropolis here. What I liked about it is they realized that Clark cares more about the people. And again, this is something that drove me nuts in Man of Steel.
01:20:45
Speaker
I know I've said this a lot, but it still drives me nuts years later, right? We're like on the 10 year anniversary of it. It still drives me nuts. The fact that we, and
Handling of Villains and Endings in 'Superman II'
01:20:54
Speaker
Superman Returns did this too, when he's gonna go to stop Lex Luthor, but then he sees the city's in danger. He goes back and he helps all the people first. Best scene in the movie is Superman flying around saving people in Metropolis and that. And in this too, he sees the people are in danger and rather than risking people's lives, he flies away so he can lead them somewhere else.
01:21:14
Speaker
Right. What I hate in Man of Steel is even before we get to the Metropolis scene, when he's in Smallville, they're in the middle of nowhere. He drags on through the cornfields, and then he throws him in a gas station in the center of town. And then he looks at everybody else around town. He's like, lock your doors. It's like, what?
01:21:39
Speaker
You just put him through a building right like a locked door ain't doing shit You just took him from the middle of nowhere and dropped him into a populated area Yeah, and I would argue that that has everything to do with like we were saying We were saying that these movies the Superman one and Superman two of the 70s and 80s They maybe lean too hard in the Christ allegory the perfect God version of things and that's what people want
01:22:05
Speaker
And I would argue, like, your case here now in this instance against Man of Steel is like, it goes further that way. It's like, well, we just want to see God beings beat the shit out of each other. No! The only reason I care about Superman is because he's a human being. Well, that's exactly right. Because that was the big criticism I remember from the fan community about Superman Returns. Like, Superman doesn't punch anybody.
01:22:25
Speaker
And then they get this, and Superman's punching people all throughout the entire movie. It's just monotonous. And it forgets that. It's like, yeah, you want some action in a Superman movie, obviously. But you also want that action to have a purpose. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And so and then we get to the back in the fortress scene. And another big difference here, the way the fortress stuff goes down,
01:22:55
Speaker
And again, another criticism a lot of people have about, or people who defend Man of Steel, and I know, you know, my buddy Anthony's probably listened to this and he's probably shaking his head because I'm bringing this up. But the one thing that always annoys me about people saying like, well, he killed them in Superman II, right? He dropped them in the void or whatever. I'm like, well, I never, even when I was a kid, I never thought that he was killing them. I always thought that there's some sort of like,
01:23:20
Speaker
It's Superman, he's not gonna be killing them and then making a joke about it. Even as a kid, my thought was always, well, obviously they're being trapped somewhere or something, is what made no sense to me. Or frozen or something somehow, you know what I mean? And in the international cuts, they do have a scene where Arctic police are taking the depowered Kryptonian villains into custody. Nice, okay.
01:23:48
Speaker
That makes sense too. And yeah, I mean, completely. And that means they shot it. So, I mean, that means that they, you know, were thinking that they just chose to not have to include it. But I agree. It's like, I did have a note of like, they just fall into the abyss. Or I think my note was something like, fortress of solitude has an abyss because they don't, which you're left wondering, but I'm with you. I never, I guess my brain, especially when I was younger, never thought death was not really where it was.
01:24:16
Speaker
And another thing too about that, again, this comes back to that idea we were talking about at the beginning with how they get out of the Phantom Zone. If you have a Phantom Zone, a device that can access the Phantom Zone in the fortress, this solved the problem too. You send them back to the Phantom Zone then. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now the other big change, obviously when they end the movie,
01:24:46
Speaker
and both the Donner Cut and the Lester Cut, they end in different ways. So as I mentioned before, the Donner Cut, the original intent when they were doing Superman I and Superman II was, and they were filming them back to back, is they were gonna have Superman turning, going back in time at the end of Superman II. It was not gonna be the ending for Superman I. Then they changed their minds, and because they had to rush Superman I out, they're like, well, we have this ending filmed, let's use it here, and then we'll figure out something different from Superman II.
01:25:12
Speaker
Then Donner gets fired, Lester comes in, he knows he's not gonna be using the time travel one, so he instead comes up with the idea of the amnesia kiss to make Lois forget that Clark is Superman, which I hate so much. I hate it on so many different levels, not the least of which is because then we have Superman Returns, which we'll talk about in a minute. But in this one, what they do is Donner says, well,
01:25:39
Speaker
Cause he had the, he talked about this in, um, in, I watched like when the Donner cut came out, there was like a documentary making of, and Donner talked about his. Dilemma here where he's like, well, I can use the ending from, I can reuse the ending from Superman, the movie, or which was the original intent, or I can use Lester's version, which was the kiss. And he said he was actually leaning towards the kiss because he did not want to reuse the same ending.
01:26:06
Speaker
But Tom Makowitz said to him, and this is dumb-ass fucking thinking, but Tom Makowitz says, the problem with that scene isn't the amnesia. The problem with that scene is it's that it's Clark kissing Lois instead of Superman. He said, Superman should, Clark should never kiss Lois. Superman should be the only one who kisses Lois. And I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no. So yeah, I mean, it's,
01:26:34
Speaker
It's very much silver age thinking. It's not at all, it totally not reflected in the modern day. So it's just completely bizarre to me that that was the argument that won Donner over. So that's why he decided to use the time travel ending. What do you think about those two endings before I go into what I think should have been done?
01:26:54
Speaker
Well, you're you're the one who's the much more creative mind and writer. So I'm eager to hear what you have as a pitch sort of for the alternate that fixes both because I don't like either. Like, I mean, I.
01:27:06
Speaker
I'm someone who A, I obviously don't love the idea of like reusing the same power, reusing the same ending. B, the sort of, I've grown too much. And we talked about this when I went to cover the first Superman on my, I was like, I know too much to know that that's just not how time works.
01:27:25
Speaker
It's a grasp too and then you've got the layer of you know if you like the donner cut and you want that to sort of be your official canon then this would obviously go completely against Superman Returns is my sort of favorite version in my head of the third movie i guess so.
01:27:42
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, but having said all of that, I am loathsome of the kiss. Like it is, if Superman mythology is that like one of the few things that beats him is magic. And I don't know how else to explain said kiss. Besides.
01:27:57
Speaker
I would have rather we had him pull out a freaking neuralizer and say it's a Kryptonian machine, you know what I mean, that wipes her memory. Okay, fine. Great. It's sci-fi. We're sticking to it. He's an alien. There was some kind of thing there. You just don't bother to explain it.
01:28:14
Speaker
You're almost like left catching up being like, wait, what? Why does she not? Is it the kiss? What? I don't understand. Why would the kiss do that? And I hate it. I hate it. So what do you got? So what I think it should have ended is like after he goes back and he drops her off in her apartment and then he flies off and she makes some like there he goes or something like that. And that's the perfect ending because you pull out and you see like Metropolis, Metropolis skyline, everything. And then you cut to the fly, the the fly over.
01:28:42
Speaker
perfect ending right there because that is, it establishes there's a new normal between her and Clark. They can't be together because he's got this commitment as Superman. And they've had this conversation where she says she's like, you know, I, um, you know,
01:28:56
Speaker
I've been worried all night and all this and all that. And it's like, that's the perfect place to end where she's still struggling with this new knowledge she has. And they want to be together, but they can't be together. Very similar to the ending of Spider-Man, the movie, where I thought that's the perfect spot to end it, especially with what they had had access to with the footage and everything. Because obviously, you can't film any new scenes. That right there is the perfect ending, I think.
01:29:22
Speaker
Because then she knows, but they can't be together. And it establishes this new normal between them, as opposed to trying to turn things back. Because the time travel ending, I've got two problems with it. One problem is the fact that it's
01:29:41
Speaker
Creatively, it's lazy, but also it makes Superman too powerful because it's like the whole idea is he's not supposed to That's what made it so impactful in the first movie is the fact that he was breaking that cardinal commitment because he loved Lois so much Now he just keeps and now it's just like this this something in his bag of tricks He can pull out anytime something doesn't go right.
Logical Inconsistencies in Plot Devices
01:30:00
Speaker
He just flies back in time Mm-hmm. It's also the problem of
01:30:05
Speaker
Okay, so you solved the problem of Lois doesn't know you're Superman now, so I guess you reversed that part, but what about the Kryptonian supervillains you still unleashed? They're still coming, that missile has still gone off, so it doesn't explain how you've dealt with that part of it.
01:30:27
Speaker
amnesia kiss well also another problem i have with it too is because in the donner cut they still keep that after the ending after he's turned back time he goes back to the diner that never happened now the diner thing never happened because that because he went back and he stopped himself from giving up his powers to be with lois so now he's going up and he's humiliating this guy for no reason
01:30:53
Speaker
You're right. And also, if they use the exact same cut, then that means that guy stood up like he knew him. Yeah. It's exactly the same. Wow. My brain is like... Oh, wow. It does not make any sense. It just makes Superman look like a bully, then. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And why would you even choose to keep that in, too, if you made that choice? I know.
01:31:21
Speaker
So those are the problems I have with it. Now the amnesia kiss, it creates other problems. Like not, you know, not the least of which is the idea that it's, you know, it's mind rape, basically. Like he's, he's, he's taking her memory. It's one thing Floa says, I can't deal with this. I wish I could forget or something like that. And they have a discussion about it or something like that. But for him to make that decision for her, it's so creepy. It's so creepy. And it gets even worse because I'm not sure if you remember Superman four.
01:31:49
Speaker
parts. Okay. We covered about a year or two ago on the show. In some ways, it's actually better than I remember. It's actually, I think it's better than Superman 3, actually. Okay. Looks like shit. It looks terrible. But the actual story in it, for the most part, is a pretty decent Superman story.
01:32:12
Speaker
But one of the things I can't forgive in it is he reveals himself to Lois again and she remembers everything. Like as soon as he appears as Superman, she remembers everything. I remember everything. And he talks to her and he has this heart to heart with her about what he should do, about the getting rid of the nukes and all that kind of stuff. And they have this conversation. And then he kisses her again to make her forget again.
01:32:36
Speaker
so it almost feels like it's establishing that okay anytime he wants to talk to Lois he makes her remember and then he makes her forget it's kind of what it feels like so it doesn't feel he goes about it so casually that it it does not feel like it's the first time he's done this
01:32:53
Speaker
Yeah, that, I mean, my brain immediately went to, I made the joke about the neuralyzer from MMM in black, but I've, like, there's a joke in those movies where it's like, how many times have you neuralized me? What does that do to a person's brain? How many times have you done this to her, man? Like, wow. Now the other problem I have with it is, is Superman Returns. Cause if you look at Superman Returns as the third movie in the sequel to Superman two, these things do not fit. These things, it, it gets really, really fucking creepy then because now
01:33:23
Speaker
Lois has no memory of sleeping with Superman. So now, and then she has this baby who has superpowers, and now she's left thinking, did Superman rape me in my sleep or something? Like what the fuck is going on here? Oh my God, yes. Yeah, and I'd forgotten that was, I guess like my brain had not even connected those things, because today was the first time I was watching Superman II for such a long time.
01:33:51
Speaker
to remember the detail of like her having had her memory removed. Or if you want to believe it's the Donner cut, then he, you know, drew back time and they never got it on in the first place. Like either way.
01:34:06
Speaker
Wow, wow, okay. You can reconcile that is that Superman Returns exists in this alternate version of Superman II where he was with Lois, but he never told her he was Clark. That's the only way it makes sense. Otherwise it just does not work. It's either very creepy or not physically possible. Yeah, yeah.
01:34:30
Speaker
Oh man, oh man, I now have layered understandings of some people's hate for Superman Returns better now.
01:34:37
Speaker
Yeah. That's one of the big, you can go back. Listen, I think actually, I think it's one of the SCP classic episodes is our episode on Superman Returns. So it'll be coming out on the feed soon. So you can hear that. But yeah, that's a big problem with that movie. The only way it works is if it exists in a, if there's a separate version of Superman 2, where he doesn't reveal he's Clark, but still sleeps with Lois. That's the only way it makes sense and is not creepy as fuck.
01:35:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I'm flabbergasted. This is just one of those moments where my brain is reeling from this information trying to process it. Thank you for that. You made me remember the amnesia kiss, so I had to bring it up
01:35:32
Speaker
It's fair, it's fair. Is there anything else you want to say about Superman 2? Anything that we didn't talk about you wanted to mention? Well there's one, it does bring me back to the beginning. I was gonna ask, and maybe I missed it because I'll admit I was kind of having to try and take notes and do other things at the same time as I was watching today. What is with the alpha waves that Luther apparently uses to find Superman? Because I had notes of like
01:35:57
Speaker
What? And so
Lex Luthor Portrayals
01:36:00
Speaker
dumb? Yeah, I have no idea. I mean, that's one of the things like that doesn't, that doesn't makes, and if you have these act, if you can track Superman with these alpha waves, couldn't you find his apartment in Metropolis and find out that he's Clark Kent? Notice that he spends all this time at the Daily Planet and at Clark Kent's apartment? Couldn't you figure that out too? So it, yeah, the,
01:36:32
Speaker
Oh, see, I like parts of it. I don't like this how it's written. I think I enjoy his performance. I actually, I wasn't going to comment too much earlier. I love the sort of Lex and Otis dynamic, but I think it like, I love the
01:36:47
Speaker
terribleness of it, if that makes any sense, like for its kind of appeal. But the alpha way of things, I similarly thought was like, okay, where? How? What is this? Where have we established this before? How do you magically have this thing that you were able to get to you in a prison? And then yes, why would you not use it to find him in other ways? And then there's sort of this just like way line when they discover, oh, superhero powered beings are coming here. And he's like,
01:37:11
Speaker
Oh, that must be the other sources of alpha waves that I detected. And then I think to myself, how the fuck did you know which alpha wave source to go to? And how is it more of a powerful one that, you know, there's fortress of solitude than there was for any one of the actual beings?
01:37:29
Speaker
Yeah okay I'm glad to hear it was just yeah it was terrible it was just one of those things that didn't make any sense. It was the hand wavy things of like ah this is a silly superhero movie people won't care about you know whether this makes any sense or not. I mean this is like a hot air balloon and also when they're in the fortress and and she comments that she has to go to the bathroom he's like why didn't you go before we left that was two days ago I'm like that's not possible that's not possible.
01:37:57
Speaker
Yeah, you don't get through a frozen tundra. Be hydrated to the point where you wouldn't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. Okay, so I Hackman's performance is good. Like, I'm not gonna say he gives a bad performance. Just I don't like this interpretation of Luther is what it comes out to. Like, I like
01:38:22
Speaker
I mean, I like that he's got the intelligence, he's got the arrogance. Good, good. I like that stuff, but it's just like the bumblingness, the small-mindedness. It's just, again, we go back to that first movie where his big thing is a real estate scam. It's like, can't you think, you're Lex freaking Luther. Can't you think of something a little bit more grander than just that?
01:38:46
Speaker
And then in this movie, what's the first thing he asks for when they're like offering him power? He says, I like beach front property make my home Australia. You know what I mean? So he asked for that. And then if you go to Kevin Spacey's portrayal in Superman returns, what is he doing? It's the exact same plot.
01:39:09
Speaker
The best thing you can pick up to do with it is to grow a crystal island. Come on. And I like like Spacey's Luther, like, you know, Spacey himself is a is a fucking monster, obviously. But, you know, his he was he was a good actor and his Luther is wasn't a version I generally liked, except when the moments when he got into a bit more hackney territory.
01:39:37
Speaker
but generally I thought he did a good job. And I keep thinking, like, you know, again, going back to Smallville is that that is such a great performance. That is such a great take on that character where he's intelligent, but he's got this human side to him as well. And I don't know if you've, you probably haven't watched Titans on HBO Max. I have actually. That is one thing I've watched all of, so. So you saw their version of Lex Luthor.
01:40:07
Speaker
Yes, and I am. What was that version? Yes. Yes, yes. He was smart. He was calm. He was measured. He was coldly calculating. He was menacing. He was Clancy Brown's version from the animated series made live action. That was like the perfect version of Lex. I loved him. He was such a good version of that character. And I'm so pissed that that's all we saw of him is just that basically that one episode and that was it.
01:40:37
Speaker
Yeah, I was gonna say it was like basically a scene. I remember being so excited and I liked the actor too. And I've seen him in some other stuff with the guy who played Bosch, I think, right? I remember seeing that actor and stuff too. Anyway, I got so excited. I was like, oh my God, yes. And then you see the scene and how they're portraying him and how he is behaving and how he is acting. I'm like, this is awesome. I can't wait to see him be the big bad of this season. Joke's on me. Yeah. Spoiler for anyone who hasn't seen Titans.
01:41:05
Speaker
And that's what I would have loved to see. And, you know, in, again, going back to Man 4, one of the things I liked about that is we see a bit more of that classic version of Lex Luthor, where he's intelligent, he's got grand plans, right? He's like, I've got access to weapons and I'm gonna sell them. Perfect, perfect. That's exactly what Lex Luthor should be doing in that situation. And, you know, using his knowledge to create the nuclear man.
01:41:34
Speaker
the nuclear man's actual, what he actually accomplishes in that movie aside, the idea is a good one. It's vintage Lex Luthor there. And yeah, I go back to these movies and it's just like he's just so petty and insignificant, especially in this movie.
01:41:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it's my understanding that Donnercutt included more of him too, because I think, you know, with all him choosing not to come back for any of the re-shoots, they were just like, we'll have less of him in it then. There's more of him in it, but he doesn't do anything more. Like it's still just like, he still has the exact same impact on the story, right? Like no measurable impact on it. Like the only thing we know is that he learns that the Kryptonians are coming, but that's all he does. And again, if you have him be the one who releases them,
01:42:20
Speaker
That makes more sense. That creates a lot more issues. And if we had a scene where he and Superman actually do have to team up, like Magneto and the X-Men in the second movie, that would have been so much better, where we see them having to work together. Something like that would have been great. So there's a lot of missed opportunities with this movie. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But that seems to be the theme of the movie I picked for this podcast.
01:42:50
Speaker
Well, yeah, that's right. I mean, at least with Jumper, right? Jumper had a lot of missed opportunities. RIPD was just panicking, so that was about it. What a man. But this one, I enjoy watching this one more than I did the other ones. But it's just, I think a lot of it is like, I've been thinking about this stuff about Superman II for years. So it feels good to finally be able to get it out on the show.
01:43:18
Speaker
Yeah, I can understand that for sure. And I appreciate, I'm glad we ended up not planning it, but perfectly having one of us watch the Donner cut and one of us didn't, that works out really well. It worked out nicely. I think it would have been a very different conversation if we had both watched the same version and then we couldn't compare notes like this. So I think it was also, it was great to have this comparison to go back and forth between the two. Cause I haven't seen the Lester cut in 20 years, maybe it's been a while.
01:43:47
Speaker
I mean, if you have the superior one and don't have the less, why would you, you know? Slightly superior, but when
Closing Thoughts and Promotions
01:43:54
Speaker
I watch it, like I watch the whole thing this time, but usually when I watch the Donner cut, after he flies away from Lois's apartment, that's when I stop it, because that's where it should end. I love that, that you're just like editing the movie for yourself as you watch it. Now, from what I understand, there is a fan edit out there that does,
01:44:14
Speaker
just go with that ending or something similar. So there is a fan edit out there of Superman II. If you look for it, you could probably find a version that deals with some of these issues we've talked about here. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Nick, why don't you tell people where they can find your stuff?
01:44:32
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, so you can find me on socials at, at Nick loves movies. That's N I C L U V love. Uh, you can find me. And as we said, my much more exciting co-host, uh, my wife Danielle on in love with movies. That's our podcast. You can find it on any, uh, major sort of a podcasting platform or also on, um, YouTube. If you want to search for us, it's.
01:44:55
Speaker
in love, comma with movies is the full list of the podcast name. And if you want to find us on socials to then see when we post those episodes, it's at the letter N love with movies all spelled out at in love with movies all spelled out. All right. Uh, yeah, we movies. So
01:45:14
Speaker
And we are SuperheroCinephiles.com is the website. We are SuperCinemapod on Instagram and BlueSky. We're technically still on Twitter. I refuse to call it X, but basically it's just all automated on there. It's just whatever I post on the scheduling app and gets posted on there. Otherwise, I'm not really on Twitter. So find me on BlueSky. That's where I am most of the time these days. Also,
01:45:40
Speaker
By the time this records, hopefully it has finished funding, but if not, I've got my Paragons of Earth comic book that is crowd funding at the time we post this. It is crowdfundernoe.com slash Paragons comic. You could also go to paragonscomic.substack.com and that also links to it. We'll have links to that in the show notes. Even if it's
01:46:06
Speaker
The campaign is supposed to go until November 1st, but if it doesn't fund, we will extend it. And even if it has funded, you could still go and buy the comic. If you haven't, they should all be available at crowdfunder.com slash paragonscomic. Again, that link will be in the show notes. Guys, thanks so much for listening. It's good to be back after a long hiatus. And yeah, we will talk to you next time.
01:46:31
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Superhero Cinephiles is produced by me, Percival Constantine, with the support of Zencaster. The show is created by myself and the late great Derek Ferguson, our host, Emeritus. Visit us on the web at SuperheroCinephiles.com to listen to past episodes or find out how you can be a guest yourself. Support the show by visiting our advertiser links or click the Buy Me a Coffee link on the website to make a one-time donation.
01:46:54
Speaker
You can also support us by visiting crowdfunder.com slash ParagonsComic. That's crowdfunder with no e dot com slash ParagonsComic and help support my superhero comic book, Paragons of Earth. We are SuperCinemapod on both Instagram and BlueSky, so please be sure to follow us. We'd also appreciate if you could rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and share us with your friends.