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Wonder Woman (2017)
267 Plays7 months ago
Nic Baldwin is back but thankfully, he's joined by his wife, Dani. That means we get to watch a good movie! This time, we're discussing 2017's Wonder Woman, one of the best DC movies ever made. We talk about the importance of the film, how well it captured the character, and how the third act was a bit of a fumble.
Listen to Nic and Dani on the In Love With Movies podcast.
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
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Transcript
Diana's Compassion vs. Mission
00:00:14
Speaker
Diana, we have to go. We need to help these people. We have to stay on mission. The next safe crossing is at least a day away. How are we waiting for? We cannot leave without helping them. These people are dying. Nothing to eat and in the village in Slade, she said. I understand that. Women, children. We need to make our next position by side. How can you say that? What is the matter with you?
00:00:32
Speaker
This is no man's land, Diana. It means no man can cross it, all right? This battalion has been here for nearly a year, and they barely gained an inch, all right? Because on the other side, there are a bunch of Germans pointing machine guns at every square inch of this place. This is not something you can cross. It's not possible. So what? So we do nothing? No, we are doing something. We are. We just can't save everyone in this war. This is not what we came here to do.
00:01:16
Speaker
No, but he thought I'm going to do.
Introduction & Guest Interest in Wonder Woman
00:01:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and joining me again is Nick Baldwin, but it's a special episode because he brought a date today and that is his wife, Danny. How are you guys doing today?
00:01:34
Speaker
Great. We finally got her here. We finally did it. We've been talking about this for a while. Three times I've appeared. I've been like, maybe one day we'll get Danielle here. Today's the day. Today's the day. We finally got Danny on the show. Yes, very excited. Danny, I am so glad you are here because you don't know what your husband has put me through almost every single time he comes on this show. He exposed me to duck boobs. He made me watch duck boobs.
00:02:03
Speaker
I actually watched that too.
00:02:08
Speaker
He was watching the movie in our room while I was, like, I don't know, decorating or something. And I remember, like, not wanting to pay attention in the movie. And I kept looking at the screen like, wait, what? What? It's like saying, you can't look away from Howard the Duck. Yeah, yes. I'm so sorry he puts you through that. Yes, yes. But so when he told me that you wanted to come on the show and you wanted to talk about Wonder Woman, I'm like, oh, my god. We have to have Danny out all the time because she actually has good taste in movies.
00:02:37
Speaker
Can we get like a clip that out? I want to put in a button and then remind Nick that someone said that about me. No, it's going to be on the soundboard for our podcast. And every time I talk about education, she's going to press it and it's going to be like, Danny has good taste in movies. I will make sure to edit that into its own specific MP3 file for you guys. Appreciate it, Perry.
00:03:04
Speaker
So, Nick's been on the show before. We don't really care about his background. Everybody's heard from him before. As he often says every time he's on and he talks about the show, you guys do. Most people listen to it because of you anyway, Danny. So, let's hear a little bit about you. Great. Yes, I am the talent in this relationship.
00:03:24
Speaker
Uh, yeah, I mean, what should I tell you? In my real life, I do education. That's kind of boring. Um, but I love it. I am as an educator. I agree. Um, but I, my big things are. What do I like to do? I'm a, I'm a fitness instructor. So I do that a lot. And also I'm a comedian. So I like to think I'm funny.
00:03:53
Speaker
You're mostly funny. I was waiting for that. Definitely funny, yes.
Danny's Movie Journey & Personal Life
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah. And so actually, I wasn't a huge movie fan until I met Nick. I don't know that you are yet, still. We've been together for 10 years now. I mean, do you consider yourself a movie fan? We started this by you saying you don't like a lot of movies. Yeah, I like what I like. OK, OK. And also, I guess, I don't know when this is coming out, but I'm currently very pregnant.
00:04:24
Speaker
It would be likely listeners are hearing this after we have a child. So I have a child. Yes, yes. Yes. There you go. Congratulations to you guys in the future. As a parent now, it's the, and I've told Nick this before, after he told me that you guys were expecting. The newborn days are actually very nice, aside from like, it's just like, you get a little bit sleep deprived, but it's pretty easy. You just feed them, you change them, you put them back to bed.
00:04:52
Speaker
It's when they start walking that it becomes a handful. As we just saw four minutes ago. And they get very loud at that point too.
00:05:08
Speaker
I'm rooting for us to at least have the experience you had with newborns. Because we have spoken to others who did not get blessed with the just easy feed them, boop them and clean them and put them back together. So I'm hoping that we get that. That's my finger crossed.
Podcast Humor & Influence of Wonder Woman
00:05:24
Speaker
Your mom described babies as a poop tube the other day. That was her back. It was like just poop tube. Things go in, things go out, that's it. That's a very apt description.
00:05:36
Speaker
I can't wait. Or if you're listening in real time, I'm loving this tube tube. You guys also host the In Love With Movies podcast. And what you're saying about because I was listening to the episode you guys did on The Godfather and my daughter now is obsessed with the Barbie movie. And there's that scene in the movie when they're trying to get all of the you guys have seen it, right?
00:06:04
Speaker
Yes. Okay, so there's a scene in the movie when they're trying to distract all the Ken's and they go in and they talk about the Godfather and they're like, Oh my God, the Godfather never seen it. And he's like, you've never seen the Godfather. And my wife looked at me when that scene happened and started laughing. I think I did too. Yeah. Because I had just watched the Godfather before that. Yeah, it would have been very soon around the time that Barbie was released is when we probably recorded.
00:06:31
Speaker
I had never seen it before but I have to tell you guys this I love it. I get it. It's a great movie But I definitely I definitely felt exposed I've done that before
00:06:52
Speaker
So, you know, here we talk about superhero movies and, you know, Nick is obviously the superhero fan in relationship, but Danny, what is your history with superhero movies, if any? Great question. I think, I mean, I didn't watch a lot of superhero movies before I met Nick, and now it's a requirement to remain in the marriage to watch every bit of at least Marvel content.
00:07:17
Speaker
that comes out. That's not entirely true. I haven't made you watch all of the content. The major movies. We're getting real close. All of the TV shows I have let you duck out. Okay, you're right. You're right. Two of them. Anyways, I have grown to love
00:07:35
Speaker
being a nerd, I think through Nick. We're more into Star Wars. That's our nerd and we have it tatted on us. We're in a room that is covered in Star Wars. Our child may or may not have a Star Wars ask name TBD. But when we were watching this movie last night,
00:07:54
Speaker
I looked to Nick and I said, I think this is my favorite superhero movie of all time. So I'm super excited that I get to talk about it, that we got to watch it. This is also the superhero movie I've seen the most out of any superhero movie. My top, if you have to ask me, Marvel, Ant-Man, what a guy. But of all superhero movies, it's Wonder Woman.
00:08:18
Speaker
with the ageless Paul Rudd, and I'm convinced there's a decaying photograph in his attic somewhere. You might be right. If that somehow came out as a secret, I'd be like, yeah, sure, that makes sense. Yeah, I love this movie too, but we'll get into that in just a minute. And my wife also has the same experience as you, Danny, because I have
00:08:44
Speaker
When I first started dating her, she said she didn't like superhero movies. So I made her watch Guardians of the Galaxy, and that got her into it. And then from there, she wanted to watch the second one. And then after that, I made her watch the Deadpool movies. And then after that, she was like, OK, yeah, I like superhero movies now. So then I exposed her to, OK, good. We're going to watch the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe in order. And somehow she and somehow she married me. So.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a lot. But I think the good thing about like, at least these movies, I know Nick is very into comic books. I don't know if you read comic books. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I'm assuming the movies, at least the big guys are accessible to all. So even if I don't know all the background of like, the things, I know I can go into one of these superhero movies and get
00:09:33
Speaker
for the most part, enjoyment out of it. Marvel's really been dropping the ball lately. Their past few movies, they've sucked. Well, I was actually gonna say, yeah, I think that's something that the first phases of Marvel and Wonder Woman did really well, whereas other movies in the DCEU did not do well, which is...
00:09:49
Speaker
connect it, like in these sort of, you know, specific and intentional ways, but don't have the whole story hinge on anything happening outside of the movie that you're watching. You know, where's first phase of Marvel and the second phase, like basically most of the Infinity Saga. They were good at being like, you could watch just the Captain America movies and you would be able to track like that through line story. You know what I mean? You didn't have to watch all the other content.
00:10:16
Speaker
Now you do. And with Justice League and other things for DCEU, they were like, hey, Avengers was good. Let's just jump ahead to that. And it's like, I think both companies at this point have forgotten. Like the only reason those things worked is because you did really good, genuine character movies that made you care about these people that you then put them through terrible things later. Like you can't just leap to putting people through terrible things. You're like, I don't know who this person is. Why do I care if they're in a world ending situation? Agreed. Yeah.
00:10:45
Speaker
So I'm curious, did you guys see the Marvels yet? No. OK, so that I think that just came out on Disney Plus, but I thought that was a pretty that was really enjoyable. Little bit tied into stuff that came before, like The Ms. Marvel Show and WandaVision, but I think you can mostly watch it if you haven't seen those shows. Well, we have seen both of those shows. OK, so then you're fine then.
00:11:10
Speaker
And then I don't know if we're gonna talk about this later, but another big piece of this movie that like why I picked this movie is because this is the first time I had ever seen a woman be truly badass and not like hinged on another man on screen. And I remember being in the movie theater and crying.
00:11:30
Speaker
And I understand where people who are underrepresented of a certain skin color or background, they've never seen themselves on screen. This is the first time I saw a woman on screen that I was like, holy crap.
Wonder Woman's Impact on Women
00:11:44
Speaker
This is it. I get it now. I get why people like superhero movies.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah. Was that scene that you cried at, was that the No Man's Land sequence? Absolutely, yep. I've heard a lot of women express that exact same sentiment. I'm like getting goosebumps just thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, I saw that movie in the theater too. And when I got to that scene, I'm just like, oh my God, this is so cool. But I had no idea how important that scene was to so many women. And it's been awesome hearing everybody talk about how much they
00:12:16
Speaker
I think Kevin Smith's wife talked about it. He went to see it with his wife and his daughter and they were both crying at that scene too. And he was talking to his wife about it later and he was trying to understand and she was just basically like, you don't get it.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah. The feels right there. It must be what you guys, like the first time you ever saw a superhero movie, like a Batman or a Superman. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably something that we, it's hard for us to identify with because we just had it our whole lives and like take it for granted. You know what I mean? You may have some memory of it, but I think even that wouldn't have the same weight because you don't, we don't have a lifetime before it of not having seen ourselves. Exactly. Yeah.
00:12:57
Speaker
I mean, I'm pretty sure that would, that moment would have been the first Superman movie for me, but I don't even have a memory of when I first watched that movie because it's been part of my life for so long. Exactly. Yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
And this is like not the first woman superhero I had ever seen on screen, but I think the other ones have been represented in like, they can only accomplish so much with the help of a man or with the help of a team. And Wonder Woman, as we'll probably talk about, she don't need nobody. She is the god killer. Yeah. And I think the other thing that helps is.
00:13:31
Speaker
And sorry, we're just launching right into the movie, but I had written out. This, I think, was not just the first female-led superhero movie. It was the first truly good female-led superhero movie. And I'll save some of the details until we get kind of there again for No Man's Land.
00:13:48
Speaker
There are elements of this movie as a true film. It's got its flaws, especially the ending that we'll get to. But I think a lot of other things were like, oh, this is just fodder and trash and not good film and not good music, not good emotional stakes, not doing a good job writing, acting, all the things that make a movie like a really good movie.
00:14:07
Speaker
they hadn't really been bothered with. Whereas there's a ton of bad movies out there with dudes who are the leads, dudes who are superheroes who are the leads, but there's also really, truly good. And they're kind of always have been for at least my life. Agreed. So before we jump too much into the movie, what are you guys into lately? Is there anything that is really kind of grabbing your interest these days? Yeah, we have obsessed over. I knew this was going to come.
00:14:35
Speaker
The Traders, have you watched The Traders? I haven't even heard of this. What is this? Oh, okay. Well, there's different franchises of The Traders. So I think it started in Australia. Sounds like, yep. And then went to UK and US at the same time. We started with US and it is hosted by Alan Coving. What a gem of a man. And the first season is they take 10 reality show stars and they take 10 normal people.
00:15:03
Speaker
And they determined that three people are traitors and everyone gets murdered. Well, not everyone. One person at night gets murdered by the traitors. So then the remaining people have to try to figure out who the traitors are. So it's just a whole game of like deception and darkness. And it's kind of like, if you've heard of that, like party game, werewolf, you know what I mean? We're like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or mafia or anything like that. Yes. Yeah, exactly.
00:15:31
Speaker
It is that turned into a prolonged reality TV show competition. And then there's like challenges for money and stuff. And it's good. It's really hard to watch honestly, because people are lying to each other's faces, but it's addicting. It is. It is.
00:15:48
Speaker
watched the first season of America, discovered the others, binged the others, and then we're like, okay, we need to take a break before we go back to the second seasons of some of these things and just let them all get there so we can binge them anyhow, plus giving the opportunity for it to give us some distance. Yeah, I was dreaming about lies and deception every night. But it is very good, very fun. Yeah.
00:16:13
Speaker
So my daughter was just trying to climb all over me just now and steal my headphones. And now if you hear this moaning in the background, that's because my wife just dragged her away. She wants to be a podcaster, apparently.
00:16:33
Speaker
If this show goes on long enough, maybe we'll start doing it with them. I love that idea. But yeah, I was trying to think of what I've been into lately. I have not had a chance to really get into anything these days just because I'm winding down the semester in Japan just ended. So I've been winding down that, doing final stuff and doing grading and all that kind of stuff.
00:17:03
Speaker
I've been working now with this publisher, so I've been doing a lot of work for them, and I've been just in full-on work mode lately, so I haven't had a chance to really kind of just do anything for fun. But I guess the closest thing, and Nick, you might be aware of this, but Mark Way did a Brave and the Bold series back in the 90s, I think, with Barry Allen Flash and Hal Jordan Green Lantern. No, I guess I thought for a second maybe I did, but no, I'm not familiar with this.
00:17:31
Speaker
So I picked up the trade a while ago,
Arrowverse & Superman Recommendations
00:17:33
Speaker
it was on one of those Amazon sales and just had a chance to finally sit down and read it. And it was really cool. It's like these, it was like a six issue series and it's like each issue was sent like at a different time period between like their actual comics. So it wasn't like changing anything. It was trying to find a way to fit these stories in with the other stuff that was already there. And it was pretty cool cause I was never really
00:17:56
Speaker
clued into either of those characters, those versions of those characters. So it was cool to kind of see Mark Wade who was a big fan of those characters and kind of see like why he likes them and get kind of a better sense of of who those guys are. That's really cool. That's really neat. I've got a couple of things Mark Wade on my shelf that I have read and others that I've like still got to list. Mark, I have yet to read something Mark Wade that I didn't enjoy at least on. Oh, no. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:18:23
Speaker
All right, so that's a nice, so now we can just talk about Wonder Woman. We can table the comic discussion before Danny gets bored and leaves. I was like, I don't know, Mark. I want to share because of you and I's conversations on previous episodes.
00:18:39
Speaker
I have gone back and I have watched all of the crossovers for the Arrowverse to get me to the last season of Arrow, and then I have watched the first episodes of the last season of Arrow. I literally was just starting Crisis on Infinite Earths today when our Netflix was having problems, so I decided to play video games instead. I am finally at that stage, and I have had the SCP episode classic in my feed waiting until I finalize and finish.
00:19:08
Speaker
that many serious I'm looking forward to that yeah that was a that was a fun episode we did back uh back in the days when Derek was still with us um I I'd really listened to that too when uh when we did that when we released it for the for the classic stuff as well and um yeah that was a that's where the air over should have just stopped I think after that after that crossover um but we do you still gotta watch Superman and Lois though I'm
00:19:35
Speaker
That is what comes next. That is what comes next. I decided I wanted to get through that portion, whatever I was going to watch of Arrowverse, and then I was just going to skip over to Superman and Lois without watching any of the rest of Arrowverse, since it is a sort of separate show. Are these cartoons? They are not. They're live action. Oh. Would you watch Superman and Lois with me?
00:19:53
Speaker
We'll see we're gonna have a lot watching maternity leave and you said only nice feel-good stuff Yeah, but I haven't watched most of the housewife franchises. So I kind of I Will say those Superman and Lois is so good, even if you don't like the the Arrowverse stuff it is like this really well done Family drama basically just with Superman in it. So it is it's really quality TV. I
00:20:22
Speaker
All right, maybe I'll give it a shot, just because Perry said. Yes. Let's run the podcast. Let's talk about Wonder Woman. All right.
Wonder Woman in Comics & Mythology
00:20:31
Speaker
Yes. Let's talk about Wonder Woman. Now, Nick, I don't know about you, how familiar you were with Wonder Woman in the comics. I never really read any of her comics. I've only been familiar with her when she was in Justice League or when she pops up in other comic books. And just in general, I just
00:20:49
Speaker
not only Wonder Woman, but mythology based characters in general, I was just never really a fan of in the comics that that even goes for Thor. I only got in this comics, you know, after the movies and but but there's still like a ton of Thor stuff I haven't read. I still never really glammed on to like Hercules or any other mythological characters. I just never they just never were Greek myths, Norse, Roman myths, all that. It was just never really my thing. So I never really connected with her. I was more into the sci fi superhero type stuff. How about you?
00:21:18
Speaker
Yeah, it was never a comic that I had really read much of specifically. I'd seen her in other things. Probably, you know, because when it comes to DC, I didn't even read a lot of Batman Younger. I've read more Batman since I've gotten back into comics as an adult. But yeah, it's really mostly just been her overlapping and things. Although,
00:21:37
Speaker
In the last couple of weeks, I recently picked up the first issue reprint of George Perez's start of the Wonder Woman run. And that first issue was very interesting and enlightening to me to then watch the sort of origin story that they had chosen for this movie and like where the similarities and differences lie there.
00:21:59
Speaker
Do you think, this is just, sorry, woman brain. Do you think that Wonder Woman as just like a solo character in her comics is sold and read less than any other, like most of the other comic books? Because she is, and this is just like, you know, when you're little and you're a little boy and you're like, I want to see another, a man, I want to read Batman, I want to read Superman. So it's interesting that both of you were introduced to her when she was with other characters and with other dudes instead of just seeking her out.
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, I do think, I don't know the numbers. Perry, you might know better than me. I suspect she probably sells less than Superman and Batman, but she is a part of the sort of trinity of DC for a reason. And I think she, depending upon what time period you're looking at, I bet she has competed with anyone other than those two. But I don't disagree with you that there's some truth to what you're saying.
00:22:54
Speaker
No, I think I think you I think you're absolutely right. And I think one of the big reason that she is part of that Trinity is because she was one of the first ones created. And I'm actually looking over sales history right now. And it was from what from what it says here, it was
00:23:18
Speaker
a lower tier sales book for DC in the 60s, but it was mid-range seller for the comic industry overall. And it improved a little bit with the Linda Carter series, and they tried to double up the frequency of it, but that ended up hurting sales. And then after the show got canceled, sales kind of trailed off a little bit again.
00:23:47
Speaker
And then when George Perez came on, when he did his reboot, that also improved sales a lot too. There was also this weird thing that I think it was Denny O'Neill did in like the 70s where he was
00:24:01
Speaker
And this, this is male brain thinking, which is what was happening here was he thought like, you know, her, he was very inspired, you know, he was a very progressive minded guy, but ended up taking some of the wrong lessons from that. And when it came to Wonder Woman, he thought like, you know, her costume was, was too sexist, right? The whole, you know, either the mini skirt or the, or the, or the swimsuit style thing. So we decided to, um, give her a full body suit and, um,
00:24:29
Speaker
And he decided, I'm going to take away her powers and just make her like, you know, a nonpowered superhero. And there was this massive feminist backlash to that, actually, because they're like, you're you're we understand what you're trying to do, but you're taking the wrong lessons from it. Yeah. You're instead just depowering the most powerful woman. Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. So, so Danny, you're not you're not a comic person, but were you familiar at all with like the the Linda Carter series or any other Wonder Woman type stuff in growing up?
00:24:59
Speaker
I don't really think so specifically. Like I never didn't know who Wonder Woman was, but I never really like went out of my way to be like, I'm going to watch the TV show or whatever. But I think a lot of it comes from, this is going to sound crazy. Uh, like when I was a teenager, when you think about like Halloween costumes and stuff, girls have few options. It's like sexy mouse.
00:25:26
Speaker
sexy cat and so Wonder Woman was always an option and I always just thought like wow on top of that being a sexy costume this is just like a badass like woman and a badass like she's just a symbol of power and I think also uh she represented especially am I making this up around like 2016
00:25:51
Speaker
You know, the we can do it. We're bringing a lot of wonder women out, uh, trying to fight against. No, I think, yeah, there was, there was definitely some of that. Like there was, there's, there's well before that been recreations of the Rosie the Riveter position as one with wonder woman. Yeah, but yeah, she definitely fed into a lot of that feminism.
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I love women. I love women. Women in power and women in gender studies. And so like she just kind of always was one of those symbols. But I had never watched a movie or a TV show or even read a comic book. Yeah. How much do you guys know about her creation, actually? So it was a psychologist kind of who created her.
00:26:35
Speaker
He was dating, he kind of had a polyamorous relationship with his graduate assistant and his wife. He is the guy who created the lie detector test, which is what the Lasso of Truth represents. And supposedly, I think if I remember correctly, the original drawings Marston did are kind of like supposed to look like his wife. How did you know this? We've had this conversation, you and I, you just don't remember.
00:27:05
Speaker
That's really cool. I think I discovered most of that around the time that the movie came out and there was a bunch of like history things. And if I'd known it before, I didn't like clock it, register it, you know, it didn't stay in my brain. But being at a place where I also know that polygraphs are not really that reliable as much as we think they are and use them. Oh, yeah. That's why they're admissible in court. Yeah.
00:27:28
Speaker
Also, like he was, you know, especially for that time for the 1940s, he was an outspoken feminist, you know, polyamorous, like you said, and he, he believed that women were superior to men. And the whole idea behind Wonder Woman was that she would solve problems with
00:27:46
Speaker
not with fists, but with love and with bondage and submission. So there's lots of bondage in those early comics. There's actually a movie. There's actually a biographical film about him. I think it's called
00:28:02
Speaker
William Marston and the Wonder Women or something along those lines. I've never seen it, but it's like all about his life and his connection and his relationship with his wife and his assistant. So I am really curious to see that. But yeah, it's a really interesting story. Yeah, I love that. Also, can I just say he was correct that women are superior.
00:28:23
Speaker
And I'm just, I'm confirming that right now with, sorry to the, I'm sure your audience is like 99% dudes, but like going through pregnancy, like the things that women have to do and then are just expected to like keep on living, you know, it's tough. And so I do understand, like women are tough AF.
00:28:48
Speaker
Let me tell you, one day I was driving to work, threw up on myself, and I was like, well, still gotta work later today. There's a lot of things that... Sorry, again. Hi, all you guys out there. I don't know if you guys could handle this. I think if our sex had been developed to be it, we would figure out a way.
00:29:08
Speaker
If you waved a magic wand, we were talking about this on our podcast with someone recently, like it's very easy for me to say. And as much as I genuinely feel it, I would take this on for you if I could. I say that, I genuinely believe it right now. I still don't know how well I would take it. And tomorrow I was the one going through what you're going through. Yeah, it's wild. I think there are two things that makes me think of. Do you guys ever watch Scrubs?
00:29:33
Speaker
Yes. Oh, Nick's a huge Scrups fan. Okay, so there's this one episode when JD was talking, it's like these little montage of the hospital. He's talking about how different people experience pain. And there was this husband and wife in the middle of childbirth, and the wife is straining. She's giving birth. The husband's like, ah, I got a hangnail. Can you ever think of anything more painful? And the wife's just looking at it and gives it this look of death.
00:29:57
Speaker
The other thing I think of is one of George Carlin's stand-up specials when he's talking about if there is a guy, he's like, I firmly believe it's a man because no woman could or would have fucked things up this much. I like it. Facts. Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman, yeah. Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman first appeared in Batman v Superman, which
Gal Gadot's Casting & Themyscira's Portrayal
00:30:26
Speaker
utter absolute train wreck of a movie. Danny, I'm not sure if Nick exposed you to that, but. I think I've seen it in, it's on in our house sometimes. Yeah. I feel like you've watched, walked through parts of it. I don't know if I've made you sit down. And I think I've said, oh, this looks like trash. And you were right. And yeah.
00:30:46
Speaker
I can never remember if it's pronounced Gal Gadot or Gal Gadot. I think it's Gal Gadot. But I'll be honest, I'm no expert either. Yeah. But I remember her from the Fast and Furious movies. And she was one of the brighter spots in those movies. One of the better actors in it, obviously. And then
00:31:08
Speaker
you know, when she was cast as Wonder Woman, I'm like, okay, that's an interesting choice. I don't know why they're bringing her in in Batman V Superman when they've already got so much other stuff going on in this movie, but she was like the one, she was like the brightest spot in that otherwise awful movie.
00:31:24
Speaker
I completely agree. And I also feel like in this movie in particular, I had a note that it was like, she just truly embodies the character, the spirit of the character. I even think for the most part, she still executed that in Wonder Woman 1984, which we will discuss as little as possible because of that movie was, but the character of Wonder Woman, she just the sort of innocence in the fish out of water scenes, the sort of genuine, um,
00:31:51
Speaker
like just sincerity with her wanting to be loving and yet her like you believe her being a powerful badass like she just really did hit it home and I think has become the template the same way that Christopher Reeves had in terms of you know what they should look like how they should act etc. Yeah, she also the actress in real life was in
00:32:14
Speaker
the Israeli army, correct? Yeah, yeah, yes. And I do believe she was pregnant during shooting parts of this movie. Really? Wow, I did not know that. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the I'm glad you mentioned her military history. Because I remember when she was first cast, a lot of people are saying like, Oh, why are they casting this skinny girl as Wonder Woman and all that? I'm like, she was a fucking Israeli soldier. I mean, I'm firmly convinced she could kick any of those guys asses in real life. Yeah.
00:32:42
Speaker
Did she do her own stunts? There were a couple of times where I'm like, I think that was her. I'm sure she did. I can't remember. She did all of them, uh, for sure. But I would think that she probably did a lot of them because she's that type of person. I also think a big enough budget movie like this, there does reach this point where they're like, no, you can't, we won't let you. Fair. Trying to.
00:33:02
Speaker
look up, see what it says about stunt work. I imagine there's probably a lot of green screen, especially like a lot of the superhero movies, especially the DC stuff, because most of the stuff was still during the Zack Snyder era, and he was very big into green screen. But yeah, you're right, here is something. She was pregnant during reshoots, and she was five months pregnant, and they put a green cloth over her stomach to edit out her pregnancy.
00:33:26
Speaker
I did know that. That is just wild and amazing and awesome. So, is emyscira a green screen? Was that a green screen landscape or where were they? Because that was beautiful. It's so beautiful and so realistic. Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm trying to see if there's anything mentioned here in Wikipedia. I'm making you do all your research. Yes.
00:33:50
Speaker
It's all the scenes that were filmed on the beach during the attack were like a set of some kind. I could tell that. But I don't know like some of the, you know, we're training scenes and things like that. I agree with you. They're just absolutely gorgeous. Or of course the establishing shots of the place. I don't know if that's like entirely green screen or if there actually is an island in Greece somewhere that just looks that awesome.
00:34:12
Speaker
OK, it was it was filmed on location. It was they finally settled on the Salentin coast along the Turenian Sea, which is in southern Italy. OK. Gorge. Very good. And they considered 47 different countries. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Well, I think they did a good job. Whoever picked that location because it's gorgeous.
00:34:41
Speaker
We're also, you know, talking about this being, I mean, it wasn't the first female superhero movie we've had other ones before like Catwoman and Electra, which probably the less said about those, the better. Agreed.
00:34:56
Speaker
But this was also the first one directed by a woman too, right? Patty Jenkins directed this one. She was actually, I think it may have been, no, no, no. She wasn't the first superhero movie directed by a woman. I think that was Punisher Warzone. Okay. But female led superhero movie directed, which I think says something, that there's that like female sensibility behind the camera. Yeah, and I think she knows
00:35:26
Speaker
Like we talked about already a little bit, but she understands the woman's perspective and like the feelings of, let me create no man's land and have this be the most shocking, wonderful, moving scene there is. But even the beginning of the movie, I think we were like five minutes in and I was like, I love this movie. It's just, it really is so good. It's so well done. It's so believable. And the Amazonians are, or the Amazons? I don't know. Amazonians. I both think I have numbers, but they're okay.
00:35:55
Speaker
they're all so beautiful, but in like a strong way. You're like, Oh, those are scary women. Like all of them just have their arms are so chiseled. And like that's so rare to see in a movie because women are always cast as like
00:36:12
Speaker
tenure, docile, skinny, or chubby, you know, like there's not strong, there's not a ton of strong representation. And so I think that's why the scenes on Themyscira are like my absolute favorite. Yeah. Because it just puts you in a world where you're like, this would be a great place to live. Well, and I think that's the other thing that it sets up that
00:36:33
Speaker
Powerful piece for women especially because you really like aside from you technically see some men in the sort of flash forward You know Wayne Enterprises dropping off the photo or whatever that sets up her flashback to tell the real story of movie But other than that you spend the first like 30 to 40 minutes before Trevor shows up. Yeah as Just women and all women and they're all being awesome and they're all center stage and they're not just randomly in the back like it is and it really does
00:37:01
Speaker
allow for a thing that you don't see in movies that often because you don't see that many women on camera without a man having conflicts and conversations. You know, what is the Bechdel test? I think it's what it's called. Like can two women on screen have a conversation that does not center around a man? Like that's a feminist filmmaking thing. And it's like
00:37:23
Speaker
way more movies fail it than than managed to succeed past it. So there's actually a there's a podcast about that called I think it's called the Bechtel cast and I think I haven't listened to it, but I think that's what they do. They go into and they look at different movies and they see if it passes the Bechtel test.
00:37:38
Speaker
That's cool. I think like, yeah. And also there are not a ton of conversations. Well, there's like none about man except for Zeus and Aries and all that. And then you also get to see these ladies fight. They're fighting each other. They're practicing their training. And it's like so freaking bad ass. Like I wrote down that first battle versus Antiope with a Wonder Woman versus Antiope.
00:38:02
Speaker
It's just so like you can feel her desire to like win and be strong and to be trained and be ready. And it's just so freaking cool. And then when the dudes actually do come, the Germans, they are
00:38:16
Speaker
when they all just leap right into action and like just start jumping off the cliff. And it's just like, I challenge you. And that's the thing is I think men, we've had movies that make you want to like their action flicks like that. They're all like, you're a fist pump, like kick ass. And I had the same exact emotion. And then it dawns on you, like, I've never seen a woman be the one who prompts that feeling from me. Yeah. That's wild. But yeah, they're so strong. You're just like, this is believable because they've trained so much for this. They're swinging from cliffs. They're, shield. Like just, it's so cool.
00:38:46
Speaker
And they don't have any guns. Yes, yes. And the, I mean, I've seen this movie like, probably like, more than five times at least, if not more than, you know, maybe like, maybe up to like 10 times, I think. But one of the things that always surprised me is when they're in that training scene, and you see them doing all those tricks, the stunts on the horses, I'm like, holy, every time I see it, it blows me away.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yeah, and I think those are probably all trained horseback riders and stuff. You would have to be. That is still a real life person, a real life woman doing that thing. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I want to be like the Amazonians.
00:39:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and like I said, like the whole Themyscira thing, the the mythical land stuff, Asgard, all that kind of stuff. Olympus never really interested me, but I was totally invested. I was surprised by how much I was invested in Themyscira in that opening, especially Robin Wright. Oh, my God. She fucking killed it in this role. I was so I was so angry when she died.
00:39:49
Speaker
I know that this is like my fourth watch or fifth. I can't remember. And I think this is the first time it hit that she's wearing the Wonder Woman crown until she dies and passes it on. I don't know why I never clocked that before, which I think is wonderful. And then. Oh, sorry, go ahead. You go ahead. I was just going to I was going to I was going to comment on the on the costume stuff, but you finished your plot first.
00:40:12
Speaker
No, go ahead, I wanna hear about the costume. Okay, so one of the things that always kind of drove me nuts about Wonder Woman's costume was how America-centric it is, right? It's got like the eagle breastplate, or then later they changed it to the W, but it's got like the star spangled skirt or trunks. And then, you know, she's got the star and the tiara, and I'm like, well, she's supposed to be from Greek mythology. How do these things connect?
00:40:38
Speaker
And I think they did, you know, I got a lot of criticism of what Zack Snyder did with the DC stuff. But one of the things I think that he did really well was the costume designs, aside from the flash. But the design of that Wonder Woman costume is an amazing upgrade of of her suit. It it evokes that classic costume, but it still connects it more to the kind of Greco-Roman themes of the character.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, it feels like a gladiatorial, you know, what you see Roman soldiers wear. Yeah. We saw it in real life. Do you remember?
00:41:12
Speaker
Uh-huh, when we went to CWB out in LA. Yeah. And it's like skimpy, but it's not unbelievable because she's like, yo, I need all of this when she's like jumping a little bit ahead. But when she's trying out all those different outfits to be undercover and she's trying to kick and she's like, I can't move in any of these other clothes. So it's like, it makes sense why she's in this armor, but she also has to be able to jump and split and kick. And it's just, yeah, I agree. I love the outfits so much. Yeah.
00:41:42
Speaker
Also with the with the the skirt thing how it's like, I don't know. I don't know what it's called, but like the Greaves or the whatever it's called. But that was, you know, yeah, that's historically accurate. That's what they that's what like the even the male soldiers wore back then. So it's a good it's a very good update of of that. And even the star, they made some slight changes to it. So now it's not obviously like a like a U.S. theme star. So it seems more
00:42:09
Speaker
like it does fit a lot better with with that era that she's coming out of. Agreed. And then there's like one last badassery move when like Wonder Woman does not hesitate. She sees Steve start to drown. There is no hesitation. She's like, BRB, let me hop off this cliff and save this man's life.
00:42:32
Speaker
And I think that's so establishing of who these women are, that they are so strong, but also they're doing it with love. She would never let a human die who was innocent. She kills a couple people later on, but- Well, and yeah, with that, I think the same thing. It goes to show her just unending compassion that she has to be dragged along when they are watching the horrors of what's happening to the innocence.
00:42:58
Speaker
you know, right before No Man's Land. And obviously it kind of like sets up the emotional stakes, which is one of the many reasons why No Man's Land is such a good scene. But I agree with you. It's the same thing as like everyone or like, you know, like tears your heart out when later on there's that general that's just like, you know, she's like, Trevor's like, men are dying, you know, soldiers are going to die. We can save soldiers or something like that. And the general is just like, that's what soldiers are there for. And she wants to like, just leap across the table. You know what I mean? Because it's like, yeah. Her compassion is amazing. Yeah.
00:43:26
Speaker
And then I do think Chris Pine is a perfect casting for this movie, because it doesn't need to be a man movie, right? It's a woman centered movie, but he is the perfect compliment to being kind of a dumb dumb, but trying really hard. He also is very passionate and compassionate.
00:43:47
Speaker
He else's first scene where he's just like, oh, do you know what this is? This is my, oh, this is a watch. I can watch that scene over and over and over again. But also when she's like, you let that little thing tell you what to do, and I'm just like, oh. It was so beautiful, so well done, and I loved it.
00:44:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think their chemistry is part of what makes this movie, too. And I think that's probably right. Also, Chris Pine's acting like he manages to step right into, like you said, that complementary role. And I think the writing is so well done for this movie because this is something I think was true of Barbie and Ken. It's like.
00:44:32
Speaker
that person is they're almost sharing equal screen. And you've got a man who kind of understands this is not his movie. He doesn't need to be the center. But it also like there's space for them. And maybe that's just because there's always space for men and we live in a, you know, patriarchal society. But I think that the movie doesn't short shrift him as a character the way that many other male led movies would short shrift the romantic interest in that movie. Agreed. Yeah.
00:45:01
Speaker
Also, even though she's in the midst of all these men after she leaves Themyscira, there's never a risk of any of them taking the spotlight from her performance. She is always center stage. I mean, even just visually, just how striking her costume stands out amongst all the drabness of the rest of it. That was such a great choice to have it stand out that much. When she was in Batman V Superman, yeah, she was a little bit
00:45:27
Speaker
brighter than everything else. But still, that was a very dark movie overall. Yeah. Yeah. And she does she does kind of blend a little more in that than she does, I think, in this because of how the movie's filmed. But I also think that casting Gal Gadot helps with that because she isn't just sort of objectively beautiful woman. And I love that, you know, Edda, who deserves a shout out the actress, Lucy Davis, because she also just kills it. You know, I mean, as the song says, like,
00:45:56
Speaker
You know, she understood the assignment. Like she came in and crushed that. But when they put glasses on her and she's like, oh, yeah, that's going to make her less beautiful. And I feel like that's the trail of the whole movie. Like you're saying like you get surrounded by women. But it's like.
00:46:10
Speaker
The light's always going to be on her. It doesn't matter what you do. You can put her in spectacles. It's not making a difference. But Gail Godot does not ever, or Wonder Woman as a character, never takes that as like, oh, I am beautiful or I am strong. She's just like, no, I'm here for a mission. I'm here for love. And I'm also just going to be honest. She's truly honest about the whole movie and going back a little bit. But I love this line where she's talking about she read all the 12 volumes of
00:46:39
Speaker
some book and she was like, you're not going to like it to Steve. And he's like, what do you mean? I'm not going to like it. And she's like, well, it says that men are essential for pro procreation, but not pleasure. And I was like, I love it. She's not. So I was going to say, I'm pretty sure I turned to you when we watched this and I was like, facts.
00:47:01
Speaker
One of the things I loved about that scene too is that, you know, with a movie like this, I think, and this was probably a, I never read any of the other scripts that were flying around because this movie had been in development for a while. But I imagine most of them probably treated her as very naive when she comes into Mads World.
00:47:19
Speaker
Diana is not naive at all in this movie. She is well-read. She is intelligent. There's a little bit of naivete when it comes to the true nature of man, which is one of the driving themes of the movie. But when it comes to
00:47:33
Speaker
you know, actual biology and like all these other stuff. She is very well read. And like she says, yeah, when he's like, he's like trying to talk about all these things about like, he's trying to dance around, you know, the talk of sex and she's just very direct. Like, you're talking about the pleasures of the flesh. I know I've read up on this shit. Yeah, yeah.
00:47:54
Speaker
I think he's just so funny too when she's like, no, I was just sculpted from clay from Zeus. And Steve goes, Oh, that's cool. It just really establishes. He's like, okay. Yeah, that's how it is. I love it.
00:48:10
Speaker
Now that was actually, there was a change that happened in this movie. They took a hint from, so they did the new 52 comics back in the early, in 2011. And they had, the sculpted from Clay Origin was, I think that was from George Perez in the 80s. But then in the 2011 reboot, they established that her father was actually Zeus. So they completely, you know, did away with that. And they did that in this movie. They make her the daughter of Zeus.
00:48:39
Speaker
Do you guys have any thoughts about that one way or the other? So she's still sculpted from Clay out of the love of her mother and then Zeus animated her, right?
Origin Story & World War I Portrayal
00:48:50
Speaker
Um, so they, there's a quick line in the movie where, you know, right before she's fighting Aries and he's saying, you know, we are in fact siblings and everything, uh, to say, you know, Zeus in fact had a child with the queen of the Amazons. And the implication there is it wasn't through magic or through clay. It was, they got busy and her mother had just been lying to her. I guess I missed that part.
00:49:18
Speaker
But I think I like it. I think I like the idea that you incorporate both. I think that for a larger audience, especially these days, we are more familiar with the concept of Zeus and siring a lot of demigods. And so I think that's easier to swallow. And I think makes it sort of make more sense in some ways that she's as powerful as she is, I guess. Yeah.
00:49:47
Speaker
How do the Amazon women come to creation? They were just originally from Zeus as well.
00:49:55
Speaker
Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Perry, but because I just read that Perez book that does establish this. And as I was watching the movie, it seems to be implying the exact same thing. There is a storyline that when Ares is basically, you know, starting to balk and say he wants, you know, not to create men or whatever, the one of the other Greek goddesses comes to Zeus and the council and is saying, like, we should create this new race of people.
00:50:19
Speaker
specifically female, to lead man and to show them what they should be doing, what their greater connection is to the world and to not be fighting and not be deadly.
00:50:29
Speaker
And therefore, it is this like reincarnation of former women who had lived and their souls like that Gaia, the first, you know, mother goddess was protecting and then they had like these goddesses come around and decide to birth there. They call them the midwives. They refer to themselves as the midwives birthing these reborn women who had been killed by men in the past.
00:50:56
Speaker
And then they become the Amazons and they all just sort of like then fall to the earth and come out of the water. And that's kind of exactly what's depicted in the movie.
00:51:08
Speaker
Yeah, I never read that Perez book. So you are the authority on this one in this in this room here. Yeah. But one. Awesome. Yes. My take on what they had said was just what they said in the movie. Right. Zeus created the Amazons to be like the the guardians of men or something like something along those lines. So I don't know exactly how we created them or where they kind of came from. So I think all that is just kind of left up to interpretation. Yeah, I think the thing that stuck out to me is that what their purpose was.
00:51:38
Speaker
which is love. Love and guidance of man. Like their whole point was they were supposed to come to earth to like, they were like, basically they looked around and they're like, Oh man, be fucking up. Let's send this force to them to then help them get back on the right path was the Amazon's original purpose. And it's the opposite of Aries who was just like, man is bad. So let's not do anything about it and just get rid of man. Yeah, exactly.
00:52:04
Speaker
So in the original comics, Diana came out in World War II. And I think a big reason why they changed it to World War I was because this is shortly after Captain America First Avenger came out. They didn't want to be seen as kind of copying that. So they switched it to World War I instead. What do you guys think about how they used World War I in this instead of World War II or instead of just setting it in the modern day? I like that it's set in a war that
00:52:35
Speaker
Okay, sometimes I'm a little naive myself. We tell this story all the time. Nick was watching The Martian, and I was like, wait, is this based on a real story? And there's a couple times when we were watching this last night, I was like, wait, is this based on a real story? Like, did Wonder Woman help us save the world and the war? Oh my goodness. But I think that's a great part of it because it makes it really believable of like, uh,
00:53:01
Speaker
Obviously the idea that love should conquer all and that man really is flawed Yeah, and actually yeah I do have some thoughts because I had some notes on this for one thing There are a lot of similarities between this movie and Captain America the first Avenger the whole plane at the end and sacrificing yourself You know, it was a good thing. They made that choice. I also think that it fits really well because I
00:53:25
Speaker
before World War I had happened, nothing like that had ever occurred. And it was like we had created deadly machines, but we had never created anything that was sort of weapons of mass destruction and weapons of mass violence until World War I. There's a reason like people still talk sometimes about in history classes, you know, mustard gas and things like that. And the reason that that's sort of an upscaled mustard gas is the storyline of this.
00:53:50
Speaker
Because like we had never figured out a way to kill each other on such a massive scale and That's it gets said a couple times people thought when this war happened that Surely once we finally get through this it was so horrific We will never do this again to each other and I had a note about like it's so depressing so much for that
00:54:13
Speaker
that we didn't do that at all. We didn't learn that lesson. We very quickly had World War II relatively speaking and have basically just been killing each other nonstop with even more advanced weaponry ever since.
00:54:22
Speaker
And so to me, World War I is kind of that turn, where it is when the balance shifted in that direction. And so that makes me think it's perfect. I also think, obviously, for lots of reasons, I wrote down that I think that the sequence for especially a couple of minutes leading into and then maybe a little bit into the battle and the village afterwards, that
00:54:44
Speaker
no man's land sequence may be the best sequence put to film in this current century of anything. Because I was talking about like, and I took some notes, even the music is done so well to set it up. They, like I said, they show you the horrors that she's experiencing and this like strife and the compassion and people are saying, no, there's nothing you can do. You must continue. You must continue. The one liner that like is implied, but I don't think anyone ever actually says, you know, they say that's no man's land. It means no man can go there.
00:55:14
Speaker
And there's the opportunity where she could have been like, no man can, but a woman can. Right, like in Return of the King. Yes, precisely. But instead of doing that, which is another amazing choice too by the writers and filmmakers, like, no, we're not going to do that because you're smart enough to get that's the point of this scene. And then, you know, she sets up, I think the VFX hold up. I think that it's like so emotionally stirring. And I just love
00:55:38
Speaker
then that it leads into her first big battle with that musical sting that is also an amazing piece of musical writing. But I just I think all of that is so beautiful. And that's another reason why I think World War One was a good choice, because it literally couldn't happen. There were no you know, there weren't the same kinds of trenches in future wars. I also think the whole point of this is Diana thinks or knows that Ares is the god of war.
Empowerment in No Man's Land Scene
00:56:04
Speaker
And war is going to be the end of the world. And then when Steve says, what do you mean, what war? It's the war, because there had never been a war before. I think it makes complete sense that she's like, now's the time. Now is when I have to find Ares and kill him. And Perry, you asked about setting it in the modern world.
00:56:22
Speaker
The second movie, which we said we were going to talk about, was set in the 80s. And man, that was bad. It was bad. Yeah, it was bad. We did an episode on it back when it premiered on HBO Max, and it was just. It was such an unbelievable downgrade, especially considering that you have all the same people involved, and I don't know what the fuck happened.
00:56:49
Speaker
I, me neither. So I like to remove it from my brain. I will never watch it again because it doesn't exist to me. This is wonderful. I'm preparing to do like, pretty soon I'm going to be recording a
00:57:02
Speaker
DC EU ranking episode with okay, and so I've been like, you know kind of like rewatching bits and pieces here and there and like I was thinking like because I haven't seen 1984 Since that first viewing and I'm like I want to watch it again. I think I'll just listen to the podcast we did instead Just go ahead and put it in the bottom know that it needs to be there there's literally no the other movies unfortunately that were worse
00:57:27
Speaker
But on the World War I thing, when I first heard that it was set in World War I, my first reaction is like, oh, they're just trying to avoid the Captain America comparisons. But then when I saw the movie, I'm just like, oh, wait. This actually makes a lot of sense, because World War II, there was good reason to fight World War II. We were fighting fascism. There was a good reason for the world to come together and fight against that.
00:57:55
Speaker
I don't know how much you guys know about World War I, but my God, it was a fucking mess. It was just like, there's a famous internet meme called if World War I was a bar fight. And it is just, judging by your face, Danny, I'm guessing you haven't seen this, but you gotta look it up after we're done because it is hilarious and it perfectly shows like how chaotic and just fucking stupid World War I was.
00:58:23
Speaker
Yeah. And that's what they kept saying in the movie is like millions are going to die senselessly and they're just continuing to let it happen. And she was like, why are we not stopping it? Why are we not getting the treaty? But, you know, the answer to that is Aries. He kept pushing it out. He said, we don't want to get the armistice. But that's what makes Diana so mad. She's like, why are we killing these people for no reason? And then you add the women and children. And that's when she was like, nope.
00:58:53
Speaker
It's over for you, bitches. I also liked how they sidestep the whole English is the universal language thing when she says like, we speak hundreds of languages on Themyscira. I'm like, oh, OK, that's good. Yeah, there's only one scene in the movie where it didn't make sense is when Steve is trying to get into the gala and he has the little guy who's an actor as his driver and they are speaking in English. I'm like, they would be speaking German. This was believable, but.
00:59:22
Speaker
Yeah, and they could have done it like and I my suspicion is just that I don't know there must have been a choice on the day Chris Pine couldn't speak German to just do a German accent which to me it's like
00:59:32
Speaker
It's actually worse with you doing a ridiculous German accent in terms of believability, because either you're going to tell me that you're just speaking German, but you're going to be speaking English, and I'll just imagine you're speaking German, or not, but you doing a... I'm like... The invitation. Yeah, it was like, okay, comedian, that's it.
00:59:53
Speaker
And you're going back to the no man's land sequence one of the other things I really love about it is how they hide her outfit until that moment that was another really smart choice because you get like the little hints of it like when she comes to Steve and he's like oh nice outfit but it's not until that moment when she she takes off and it's just like this
01:00:12
Speaker
burst of color. I liken it a lot to you'd mentioned Christopher Reed before but that that first night in which is kind of undone because you get a shot of it from the distance after the the Jor-El instruction scene. But the fact that that is the first time we see that costume and it's just this explosion of color in the midst of all this gray was an amazing choice. And also
01:00:37
Speaker
All the women listening will get this. When you take your hair down and you flip it out, you mean business. And she took her hair down first, then climbed out, then took her coat off. I was like, let's go. It was just so good. I love it so much. Something I noted this time that I think was happening, and you kind of mentioned it, you didn't realize that the star that she puts on, the tiara that she wears, is belonging to a TIP. Well, that's what she's doing when she's putting her hair down. She's actually putting that on.
01:01:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah, because you're right. She didn't have that on before. But similarly is like her being like, no, this is you know, I'm going to I'm going to sort of channel my dead general, my aunt. And I just think that's another just another emotional beat that's added to it. And perfect. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a good that's a good thing, because I think one of the things that has happened in the comics is they've I think they've leaned a little bit too far into Diana as warrior for getting the whole part about how she's supposed to be an ambassador of peace. And I think
01:01:35
Speaker
This movie and Godot in particular do a good job of straddling that line between warrior and peace ambassador right because up until that point in no man's land. She is very much in like the peace ambassador mode right she's all about peace and love and all that very much.
01:01:52
Speaker
You know in obviously influenced by her mother, but then when she puts on that tiara, it's like, okay Now I'm channeling any up and it's just it was this Seamless transition right? There's no that you don't feel any contradiction between those two parts of them
01:02:09
Speaker
Um, chef's kiss. I agree. And she like barely kills anyone until she is truly like, this is the enemy. This is bad. And I think like the most gruesome killing is when she thinks that she's killed Aries, but it's actually just Ludendorff steroids. Um, but yeah, throughout most of the movies, she's like.
01:02:32
Speaker
blocking people, moving people, but she doesn't go out of her way to kill people, which I think is just like they never even mention it, but it's just subtle. Like, no, she still wants peace, but she just wants this violence to stop. Yeah. And the fact that she's restraining people with the with the lasso in that in that scene of the town, I think that was a perfect illustration of that. Exactly. Yeah. Also, we haven't talked about the the crew that she puts or Steve puts together.
01:03:02
Speaker
Uh, the little actor guy chief Scottish. So Samir, Charlie and chief. Yeah. And when she stops the violence in the bar and Samir goes, I am both frightened and aroused. That's a good line. Because that was like truly odd. Like when you saw that happening in a bar. Oh yeah. Same.
01:03:33
Speaker
Yeah. What did you guys think of the crew overall? Charlie confuses me. Does he ever make a shot? That's a good question. I thought he did. I feel like he I want to say he did, but I'm honestly I can't remember. I can't really. I like that. Like that you see the characters have compassion for him, even though it's like you could easily be like,
01:04:01
Speaker
You know, really frustrated with them. It's like you're literally being brought along because you're a marksman, but then you can't like take the shot because of the trauma that you've been through. Um, but they're kind of like, but that's still our bud. Like we're not gonna, you know, leave behind because of that. Yeah. I like that Samir says everyone is fighting their own battles, Diana. And I think that gives her like insight into man because she's never had to deal with like emotional, like.
01:04:25
Speaker
trauma or anything like that. She's only known one thing, which is these perfect, beautiful women who can fight. And so she goes into the real world and is realizing like he's, he just wants to be an actor, but he's like, the color of my skin has held me back. And it's just something that has probably never dawned on her before. And just realizing that like that crew emphasizes that men are flawed and not men, like just men. Man is flawed. And at first she was like, well,
01:04:55
Speaker
They have to deserve me or they have to deserve peace. And at the end, she realizes that you have to choose to love them despite their flaws. So I think they really do add on to the message of the movie. And they also step back. They're like, where's Diana? We need her. We need her. Like they understand she is the one. She is the most powerful. And they never make a comment or try to like.
01:05:15
Speaker
overstep or do anything. Yeah. I don't even think I thought of that, but as you bring it up, I'm like, yeah, if this movie had been made, you know, 10 years earlier or by a different studio or something like that or something at the time, I think there would have been a lot more comments of like, oh man, I can't believe we're following a woman. You know, like just those little side beats that are like played for comedy, but really would have been undermining her as a character. Yeah.
01:05:40
Speaker
Also speaking of the, I didn't know this, but I just read this now. So Eugene Brave Rock played Chief, and he was really concerned about the possible stereotypes in the representation. So he brought these concerns to Patty Jenkins, and even like he wasn't really keen on the character just being called Chief. And Jenkins said, okay, well,
01:06:01
Speaker
tell us what we should change. And he had like this unprecedented level of creative control over how his character was portrayed in the film. He said he had never had that experience before on a set. That's cool.
01:06:14
Speaker
That is really good to hear. And it is, I would say like he's, it's, he falls into some of the tropes because I think of how he's written, but it doesn't surprise me to hear that story. Cause it sounds like, okay, somebody who's not a native individual wrote it, but then he was putting his spin on it to make it like still have some of that spirit of it. And I think that it's, they're an interesting.
01:06:33
Speaker
tale of like how a person copes with the ups and downs of life because as you said danielle i think that the mess the takeaway message of this movie ultimately is like you just have to choose love nobody's deserving it every human being is flawed we have both good and bad capabilities in us
01:06:49
Speaker
but you just have to choose to have love and compassion. And the more you choose love and compassion for others, the better it makes the world as a whole. If you keep focusing on, does this person deserve it? The reality is, and maybe this is my own religious beliefs, but no one does. No one deserves the love that they should get. But the only way to kind of bring them up to deserving it is to give them the love that they don't deserve, in my humble opinion. But I think that these three characters also play
01:07:16
Speaker
a role in showing different ways that people can cope with life. So you kind of have Samir, who is, in my opinion, because I talk about him being an actor, he's jumping at every chance to sort of play a role. Like I was thinking about in the village in the evening when he's kind of pretending for just a moment to be their servant. And there's a part of it that's like, oh, well, you know, in some ways you could look at this as he's pretending to be a servant. That's kind of like, um,
01:07:42
Speaker
insensitive it's kind of like belittling his character but if you think about it from what he has said he chooses any option he can to pretend to be someone else for any extended for any period of time he leaps at let me be your driver let me be your driver like he just wants a chance and that's how he copes
01:07:57
Speaker
to pretend like he's someone else. Then you've got Charlie, who's not dealing with it well. Occasionally he lets himself cry and sing or whatever, but mostly it is just he is suffering in his trauma. And then you've got Chief, who just seems to be at peace with what the world is. That beautiful scene where he's talking about, I got nowhere else to be. What else am I supposed to do? At least here I'm free. At least here I get to make my choices. Anyone could die tomorrow, but I could be dying tomorrow anywhere.
01:08:24
Speaker
Then he says something like, all of my people have been destroyed, basically. And she's like, well, who did that? And he's like, his people. And he's literally gesturing to one of his best friends. You know what I mean? And he's just like, but I recognize that's not him personally. That is just like, that's the truth. That's the facts of the world. And so I think they provide that viewpoint if you want to look at the subtext. I agree. Yeah, yeah. Well said.
01:08:50
Speaker
Also, how good is that scene when they're in London? And well, first, I love the fact that when when they come into London, he's like, he's like, oh, we're here in London. And she looks up and she's like, this is fucking disgusting. Idiots. It's not for everybody. But I mean, like, I love that scene because it it was the reality at that time. London back in the 19th in the early 1900s was a shithole. Yes.
01:09:17
Speaker
Um, but also that, that scene that echoes the, the scene in Superman, the movie, like you can tell there's so much of Superman, the movie's DNA in this, but when, you know, they're ambushed by the German spies and, and she deflects the bullets instead. Like that was, I love that scene.
01:09:34
Speaker
You know what's funny is the first time I saw this movie, I had not watched the original Superman. And so now after having watched it last night, I was like, Oh, this is the same scene as in Superman. And it's brilliant. And I didn't have to know what to love the movie, but it just adds an extra little layer of like, she is also Superman. Yeah, she is the Superman. Yeah, the one thing I think when I. I was thinking about this movie and I was like, did she need to be in love?
01:10:04
Speaker
with Steve Trevor or like, did they need to have the kiss and the- Night of passion together. They did it, I think. And I said, I'll allow it because they were celebrating such a big victory. Like she had just saved that whole town and she was just feeling super great and he had helped her. And he showed in that battle scene how much he understood her by not being like, I got this, get out of the way.
01:10:31
Speaker
He's like, no, you guys pick up this piece of metal, put it on our back. We're going to support her. Like if I were a woman, I'd be like, damn, I love you too because you know, I'm in charge. And then obviously it adds to the end how heartbreaking it is that he's like, all right, well, got to go sacrifice myself for for today.
01:10:53
Speaker
Well, another thing I liked about one of the reasons I especially like the fact they they had that sex scene and it happened so early is that they don't go into the route that I think a lot of movies do where it's either a woman is either a virgin or a whore, right? There's no in between. So it's just like, yeah, she's going to have sex. She's going to enjoy it. And there's nothing wrong with that. So I thought that was that's how I looked at that scene. Yeah. And it's not her being taken advantage of. It's her choice. And it's not, you know, to get something. It's like you said, it's just celebrating life. And I think
01:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's another one of those be in the moment kinds of things. Yeah, definitely. Because tomorrow was not guaranteed. Yeah. For Steve. Something else, too, I noticed about this. And after I watch this and then watch the theatrical cut of Justice League.
01:11:39
Speaker
there was something that was really unsettling about the way that Gal Gadot was photographed in Justice League compared, and I'm like, why am I not liking this? There's something that feels off. And I re-watched Wonder Woman, and I'm like, oh my God. I understand what they mean by the male gaze now, because I didn't quite understand it before, but after comparing how Gadot is filmed in Wonder Woman, how she is in Justice League, there's like a lot of low angle shots in Justice League that border on upskirt shots.
01:12:09
Speaker
Yeah. Dang. Yeah. Which they could have easily had one of those for no man's land. But again, they show her and they do like straight on. You just see her walking out of frame. They don't follow her because otherwise you would have an upskirt shot. But they're like, no, we don't want to belittle this moment. Yeah. Versus lots of, you know. That's so interesting. I would watch the like those scenes of the movie just to see the
01:12:33
Speaker
the difference. But I think it's like, and maybe that's why women feel so much more compelled to watch this movie or see themselves in this movie because we're seeing it from the woman's perspective, just like Patti was like, this is what I see. I see a strong woman, not a sexy woman.
01:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's the key, too, is because those are the types of things that only film nerds, like you and me, I think, Perry, notice the, like, detail of how that happens for the average moviegoer. It's just this thing that's happening on a subconscious level. And even for you, you described, like, you had to give it thought. Like, at first, you're just like, I don't know why, but this is not sitting well with me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Critique of Wonder Woman's Third Act
01:13:09
Speaker
Now as much as I love this movie though, I've got some, this has a huge third act problem. Like the third act is just. I agree. I hate the ending. I hate it. And Aries sucks. This is where it becomes like all the other times I appear on Perry's podcast where I'm like, there's just so much good that could have been done and then they just made the wrong choices. I literally put this movie is perfect except for when the real Aries comes out. Like that just really, the ending is lit.
01:13:38
Speaker
I mean, to me, it completely belittled the whole theme of the movie, that man is destructive and man wants to destroy himself. And then when you come in, Aries, and they try to say like, oh, no, no, it's still, it's still man doing it. Aries just like, well, I just kind of nudged him a little bit. I'm like, no, you should have just been like, I didn't, if you want to have Aries at the end, fine. But he should be like, I was just sitting back and watching this all happen. I had nothing to do with any of this.
01:14:05
Speaker
Yeah like it isn't like he's like I just whispered in their ears when he's explaining that part I'm like yeah that's that's the flawed man who's just taking this but then he's like JK I'm gonna suck up all this metal and turn into the devil but also still have this awful mustache and like oh I hate it. I love Dale of it through list as an actor David through list but it
01:14:27
Speaker
He was not the right choice if you wanted to have his face. And I don't know if it was his choice to be like, you must have my face. I think if they were, A, there didn't need to be a CGI slugfest at all. There's this weird belief that there does need to be. Didn't need to be there at all. If you were going to choose to do it, A, make it shorter, because that's the only part of this movie that starts to feel long, because it's like 30 minutes unnecessarily.
01:14:49
Speaker
and see if you're going to have him turn into this huge CGI creature, then have him go full bore CGI creature and turn him into what Ares is in the comics, where it's like underneath the helmet is just black and you see two red eyes staring at you. Like, just have him do that. And then when he comes out of the smoke, David Dulos' face is gone. No ginger mustache. He is just Ares, you know, menacing force. Especially like that mustache. It distracted me so much when I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Just don't do this.
01:15:18
Speaker
Oh, that was so bad. So maybe she knocks his helmet off and you like, just obviously, like David Doolis' head just does not fit on the CGI body that they have. Yeah. Or they do the flashback of like when I was younger and it's like a super jacked body and then still in with his cute little mustache.
01:15:39
Speaker
He's a god. Why not just like these gods, they have the ability to transform into different people. Why not just get some like super jacked guy to play the Aries part and like you could have David Thule is then voicing it or whatever. But yeah, it was just so unnecessary. Yeah, I completely agree. And it does. When we were watching it last night, I was like, man, I love this
Emotional Resonance & Alternative Ending
01:16:00
Speaker
movie, man. I love this movie. Oh, yeah. This is why I don't watch it all the time because of the ending. And there are still parts of the ending that are
01:16:08
Speaker
beautiful, which is like her getting kind of, she can't hear. And then Steve comes up and is like, you can save, or I can save today. You can save the world. And you don't find that out till later. Like that is beautiful. Her not murdering the masked woman. Dr. Poison. It's also really, really great. But I'm choosing love and it's her having that moment of remembering. And also she was like, uh, lady, lady, get out of here. But yeah, the, all the other airy stuff I'm like,
01:16:39
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, the airy stuff. I mean, I think you're agreeing with us. It just detracts, like you said, from the stuff that is beautiful. It makes the movie longer than it needs to be. And it detracts from the message of man is flawed. You have to choose not to fight. And that's what she does with Lady Death or whatever. Lady Poison, Dr. Lady, Dr. Poison. Yeah. Yeah.
01:17:02
Speaker
Um, sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna, the line that Danielle mentioned, I like, I turned to her and I've told her this story before part of the reason this movie stood out to me personally. So this is getting a little bit of what we talk about on our podcast with personal shit. Uh,
01:17:16
Speaker
So the ways that we cope with stress, as Danielle is sort of a just constantly anxious person and every single day, I don't tend to feel that most days. And then occasionally my depression will take hold and I am like catastrophically in the red and very much not in a good place.
01:17:34
Speaker
When I first saw this movie, even as far back as 2017, that we had reached a pattern where she sort of would save me and pull me out of my dark spaces when I hit there. But it was like infrequent versus me. I was sort of taking care of her and her general anxiety every single day. So when that line happens where he says, I can save today.
01:17:55
Speaker
and see I'm getting like emotional just saying it. When I can save today, but you can save the world. That truly is a big part of why this movie identified for me in our relationship is that Danielle is my Wonder Woman in that sense, that I'm able to save the day every day. I could save this day. You're the one who pulls me back from the brink and like saves all of the world. So it means a lot to me too. You guys are gonna make me cry. I know. Can you get that in a clip and then put it in a button and then...
01:18:26
Speaker
What I was gonna say too is like, you know, I've been working out my rankings for this this ranking episode we're gonna be doing and When I was thinking about like if not for that third act This would be number one in my DC EU rankings with the bullet But because of that third act it actually falls down to number three. I
01:18:45
Speaker
Dang, Aries. I gotta know, are you willing to spoil what the two above it are? The two above it are the Suicide Squad is number one and Aquaman is number two. Oh, wow. Okay, okay. I've never seen Aquaman. I politely disagree with you on your number two, but to each their own opinion. Well, because I think Aquaman is, I think overall I would say Wonder Woman
01:19:09
Speaker
Again, it's the third act problem. If not for that third act, Wonder Woman would unquestionably be the better movie. Whereas Aquaman is consistent all throughout. Wonder Woman takes a massive nosedive in that third act, and that's what knocked it down. Damn, that stinks. So if we're re-pitching the third act of this, does real Aries show himself?
01:19:33
Speaker
I would, I think I'd be okay with him showing himself, but just like being just kind of like as a bystander. Like I don't, I didn't do any of this shit. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just sitting here with a bucket of popcorn and watching. And then, you know, you cut to David Thewlis with like just popcorn butter all over his mustache. I do actually think that could work and you could keep it David Thewlis and still have the like surprise. Cause I was thinking you could just make it, I mean, it's a little hollow if she defeats Aries.
01:20:02
Speaker
But I think you could do it where, uh, learned in drawer for whatever is Aries. Cause it feels like they did a really good job making him the red herring. Ludendorff. Thank you. They set it up that it makes a lot of sense. He seems like a mustache twirling villain. You've got the whole weird where she's talking about him being weak and then gives him that vapor to smoke, you know, and it kind of implies like, well, maybe it's Aries who's like needing that extra special sauce. Cause he's a weakened God, whatever. I think you could have done that and had him just be Aries and have her kill him.
01:20:32
Speaker
and then still have it be like her taking that moment where she's like, I killed Aries. Why aren't people stopping? Why aren't people stopping? And instead of David Doolis showing up again at all to be like, oh, you didn't really kill Aries, have it be, she did kill Aries. And yet you still have the flawed humanity that they are not stopping because that's the kind of, like you said, Perry, it cheapens it when you, when they make some of the choices, you go away from the idea that like, no, you need to know man is flawed. We have good and bad in us. And that message is still there without Aries being there.
01:21:02
Speaker
Is there a comic book of Wonder Woman where it ends this way? Like, was this going off of a book? I'm not familiar with most of Wonder Woman's comics, but I don't think so. I think they just took, like, bits and pieces of her origin story from, like, the George Perez run, from the Brian Azarello run, and then they just kind of weave this World War I story to fill in the... Like, the origin story comes from those comics.
01:21:32
Speaker
Steve Trevor coming to Themyscira, her deciding to go back with him to stop the war or whatever. In this case, it's World War One instead of World War Two. But outside of that, I think everything else is just original to this movie. I think you're right. Yeah, that's my impression, too. Yeah. Well, Patty Jenkins should have. Well, she just directed it. She didn't write it. She might have co-written it.
01:21:54
Speaker
Anyways, whoever needed to do some edits. I'm seeing the the writing credits are it's Zack Snyder, Allen Heinberg and Jason Fuchs. But I imagine there was probably some Patty Jenkins probably did some like uncredited rewrites or something like that, because that usually happens, right? There's because the way the the Writers Guild rules work, like you have to contribute like a certain portion of the screenplay or something like that to have actual credit on the screenplay or something along those lines.
01:22:26
Speaker
interesting yeah then maybe this is like a oh yeah here it does say Allen Heimburg's work had to be finished and rewritten by Jenkins and Jeff Johns after he left to work on a TV show so they did like uncredited rewrites on this interesting I was gonna say Zack Snyder is the
01:22:43
Speaker
Uh, what's his name? Paul Feig? Nope. Kevin Feige is who you're thinking of. Kevin Feige, you know Paul Feige of DCEU, right? Of the early on. Of this time, yeah. And so maybe he was the one who was like, well, it still has to have that big cinematic ending. And so I feel like Patty Jenkins was like, okay, I'll control the first two pieces of this and then we'll still give audiences what they think they came for and have fighty fighty killy killy.
01:23:14
Speaker
I think by this point, Snyder was probably gone from it. But his basic, the basic outline that he because it said it was the story came up by Heimberg, Snyder and Fuchs. So I think that means like he just kind of came up with like the the plot outline. I don't think he actually had any writing on the actual script. And it looks like Allen Heimberg actually wrote the screenplay itself. And then Jenkins and Johns rewrote the screenplay parts of it. That tracks.
01:23:41
Speaker
Well, do better next time, guys. Another problem I have with 1984 is just the implication here that, you know, Diana has become. And I think this falls into like cliche territory where she is so obsessed with the idea of losing Steve Trevor that she just shuts herself off from the rest of the world. I feel like that is a very undiana thing for her to do. I agree.
01:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, this movie ends with her looking back post 84. And just being like, that was a great time in my life. I loved I believed in love. I still believe in love. And that's because of this moment. But it doesn't seem like she's angered or like shut off because of it. So it's weird to like, and go back and be like, but in the 80s.
01:24:30
Speaker
She also is a hermit, or I can't even remember the story of that. And also for her to be so active as a hero and that nobody sees a superhero until Superman. So it's just like it's completely out of place with the rest of the continuity of that universe, which I know we're supposed to look at, especially now it's over, look at these movies in isolation, but it's still, it's just, it's so maddening what they did to her character and how 84 felt like a backtrack in so many ways.
01:24:59
Speaker
Yes. Agreed. I don't like that movie at all. Especially because I don't get why you call a movie 1984 and it has absolutely nothing to do with the book. 1984 is such a big shorthand for like totalitarian government and all this kind of stuff. And instead it's just like, nah, it's just a 80s movie. It doesn't make any sense.
01:25:25
Speaker
wanted to use them all and big hair and, and they could have gone 85, 83, but I feel like, I think that they like knew that 84 because of that book is kind of like more in the zeitgeist that it just sort of felt like it came off the tongue easier. And it's like, I agree with you though. It's like your, your, your hitting notes that you're not actually hitting.
01:25:45
Speaker
Yeah, and the movie, again, I can't remember the movie at all, really, but I know Steve Trevor comes back. And to me, that also cheapens this movie of he has a hero's ending. Leave it at that. Let her remember him fondly in love rather than whatever crap happens in the 80s.
Final Thoughts & Promotions
01:26:04
Speaker
It's also really creepy because he is in someone else's body the whole time.
01:26:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Somebody else. I remember at the time people were critiquing and talking about how like, um, do you all realize that this is effectively rape? Like that's you're just having a hero. It's like, that's not a great idea. Yeah. So this first Wonder Woman near perfection overall, I love it so much. I would change the third act, but I can't, but I would watch it over and over again. Agreed. Which is shocking for me for a superhero movie, right?
01:26:39
Speaker
She renews her vows. Yeah, that's that's a perfect note to end on. Nick, unless you have any other final thoughts, anything to add to that? Nope, nope, my last notes were just more details on the thing I went into about her line in my relationship. Awesome. Yeah, I mean, I I love this movie except for the end. I mean, usually if I when I rewatch this movie, I think it just kind of like after once it gets that third act and just kind of like, I think I'm done now. Yeah.
01:27:09
Speaker
We both zoned out because last night we were like, wait, how did Aries die? I literally like, I was like, can you remind me how he actually got defeated? Because I just didn't notice that. Because we both went into our phones at that point. All right. All right, guys. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Danny, thank you for saving me from Nick forcing me to watch another bad movie.
01:27:32
Speaker
Don't worry, I'll be back with a vengeance. I'll find the worst one. Is there another Duck 2? Harold the Duck 2? Thank you for having me on and letting me woman-splain some things. I loved it. You got to come on more often so that we can have more of this and we can hold Nick off from making me watch bad movies. Great. I'll keep him in check. Yes. I love this idea. I mean, if you're saying yes, I'll show you Perry's List, we will pick something and I will happily come talk to you again. I'll take a look.
01:28:00
Speaker
Okay, awesome. Awesome. Okay, so guys, why don't you tell people where they can find you? Okay, you can find me at Danny Miami for on Instagram. That's where I'm most active. I'm not going to physically be active for a minute. And then you could follow our podcast at and love with movies. That's at the letter and love with movies all spelled out.
01:28:24
Speaker
Where else, Nick? That is on pretty much all the socials at this point. We are more active on some than others, but like that blue sky beds, all the things we have it there. And then you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Nick loves movies. That's N I C L U V love Nick loves movies.
01:28:41
Speaker
But yeah, other than that, if you're hearing this in our feed, because we're going to do this as a crossover episode, Perry was kind enough to help us out there when it comes to baby birthing. So if you're hearing this in our feed, go on Perry's feed, as we will link to it, and go listen to some more of his episodes. If you're listening to this in Perry's feed, go start with maybe Perry's episode on our podcast. See if you like what we talk about there, and then listen to some others around it as well. What movie did we watch? High Fidelity.
01:29:09
Speaker
Oh, yes, yes, yes. I knew that. Which gave Danny a bad impression of me before we even met. Who is this guy? And we've since then watched other Johnny King's like 1980s movies. So yeah. Yep. Awesome. Yeah. So yeah, definitely check that out. The high fidelity episode was a lot of fun. I really enjoy doing that.
01:29:32
Speaker
And yeah, as for us, SuperheroCinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on threads and Instagram and BlueSky. And also, I've got a comic book that just came out, Paragons of Earth. By the time you're listening to this, we might be doing a Kickstarter to try and raise some extra funds. The crowd funder had finished. So I don't actually know what the link is right now, but it will be in the show notes when it is ready. So please check that out. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
01:30:03
Speaker
Bye-bye.
01:30:06
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Superhero Cinephiles is produced by me, Percival Constantine, with the support of Zencaster. The show is created by myself and the late, great Derek Ferguson, our host, Emeritus. Visit us on the web at SuperheroCinephiles.com to listen to past episodes or find out how you can be a guest yourself. Support the show by visiting our advertiser links or click the Buy Me a Coffee link on the website to make a one-time donation. You can also support us by visiting Crowdfunder.com slash ParagonsComic. That's Crowdfunder with no E,
01:30:34
Speaker
dot com slash paragons comic and help support my superhero comic book paragons of earth we are super cinema pod on both instagram and blue sky so please be sure to follow us we'd also appreciate if you could rate and review the show on apple podcasts and share us with your friends
01:31:09
Speaker
Thank you for listening. And as always, good night. Good evening. God bless.