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Justice Society: World War II (2021)
281 Plays9 months ago
After a long absence, our resident DC animation commentator Stacy Dooks returns! In this episode, we discuss the Tomorrowverse's introduction to Earth-2 and the Justice Society.
Listen to Stacy on The Fanboy Power Hour podcast
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
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Transcript
Strategizing Against a Mysterious Foe
00:00:31
Speaker
What kind of crazy gun was that? It will take more than the speed of Hermes to stop an Amazon fiend. Who are you? So they've got one of their own. Wait, what? Wonder Woman. What's the plan? Regroup with the others, tell Carter to take care of the planes.
00:01:01
Speaker
We need to buy more time. Did President Roosevelt send you? President Roosevelt? What? What's happening? Keep an eye on... whatever this is. I got him, boss.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Features
00:01:42
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and it is a DC animation episode, so that means I am joined by the regular DC animation correspondent, Stacey Dukes. Stacey, how you doing today?
00:01:54
Speaker
Hello, I'm doing well. It's great to be back. And it's great to be talking about another really fun DC cartoon. So I can't wait. It is. Yeah. Yeah, I am too. I'm looking forward to this. You know, this one had kind of flown under my radar. We're gonna be talking about the Justice Society World War Two animated film.
00:02:12
Speaker
kind of flew under my radar when it came out just because I've never been traditionally a big Justice Society fan and we'll talk about that as well. But when you suggested doing it, I'm like, all right, yeah, let's check this thing out, see what it's like. But before we get too much into that, it's as we were talking off mic before we started up here, it's been a minute since you've been on the show. So why don't you take a take a minute and remind everybody about who you are and what you do.
00:02:38
Speaker
Oh, hi. Well, I'm Stacy, a professional, semi-professional podcaster by day. And I also do a little bit of writing. It's kind of fallen by the wayside of late, but I'm slowly getting back on the horse. I've got some new ideas that I'm working on. And I do a weekly podcast with my brother, Ryan, called the Fanboy Power Hour, in which we discuss all manner of nerdy.
Indie Wrestling Adventures
00:02:57
Speaker
Our latest episode is out, where we journeyed up to Edmonton, Alberta and took in the top talent wrestling promotion.
00:03:04
Speaker
which featured a lot of fun indie talent from around the provinces as well as some guests like penta so if you're like a fan of like you know lucha libre and also some of the aw stuff he's a regular there so it was fun to see him come to calgary and play in this indie show you know we were in a converted music hall and we had a chance to like
00:03:23
Speaker
watch you know we watched the whole thing we stood for about you know five and a half hours for because it was standing room only but uh man like my 48 year old niece did not appreciate that but the show was so good that i didn't mind hobbling back to the car afterwards so it was really fun and if you it's it's an episode that i'm particularly proud of because we just completely fall into our love of like indie wrestling so
00:03:46
Speaker
If you want to check that out, feel free. You can find Fanboy Power Hour wherever you get your podcasts, much like this fine one. And yeah, I've been doing well since then. You know, the last time we were chatting, it was Return of the Caped Crusaders, which, you know, it was the very much kind of the Silver Age episode. So it seems only fitting that we go a little further back and we go back to comics Golden Age, where they do what they do best, punch Nazis in the face, which is which is, you know, always so satisfying.
00:04:16
Speaker
But yeah, I'm glad to be back. Yes, I, you know, punching Nazis in the face, always, always heartily endorsed on this show. Absolutely. As you know, the great Aldo Rain said, Nazi ain't got no humanity. So I do, everyone is free to punch them in the face as far as I'm concerned. Oh, so great. Punch them, just fling them around. They are the ultimate guilt-free,
00:04:41
Speaker
you know, guilt-free bad guy that you can just dispose of without a doubt. Nobody ever, well, in the current political climate, some people are like, well, they have certain points of view that are really great. I'm like, the point of view that I want is them going into a jet turbine. That's the point of view that I want to have. You treat them like Looney Tunes villains. You just fucking destroy them in every creative way you can think of.
00:05:05
Speaker
There's a couple minutes in this movie where my writer sense was tingling.
Exploring Comics: Miracle Man and Sandman Mystery Theater
00:05:11
Speaker
We'll get to it in due course, of course, but when the team comes across the Nazi castle, I was like, oh shit, there are so many ways we could blow this fucker up.
00:05:24
Speaker
I was starting, my fingers were starting to twitch, I'm like, get me a keyboard. Okay, now before we dive too much into the movie, you know, one of the things we like to do on the show is talk about, you know, what kind of stuff you're in lately. You mentioned the indie wrestling stuff for your podcast, but is there anything else that's kind of been catching your interest these days?
00:05:46
Speaker
Oh, well, I have been slowly catching up on a couple of like my, my to read pile is gigantic, of course. So, like, like a lot of modern fans, you know, I purchase a lot of collections, a lot of archival editions. And recently, you know, I've, I've got a couple in the pipeline. I'm reading right now I'm reading the original
00:06:08
Speaker
uh by the original author epic of uh miracle man so uh you know yeah so i've been i've been reading that new edition that just came out because i want to build up to getting to neil gaiman's take with the silver age right so i started off with the original and i remember back in back in the day i had picked up a couple of the early issues in reprint and so i'd read a little bit of it but unfortunately you know
00:06:37
Speaker
I never read it in its entirety and I remember being fascinated by the concept of a Captain Marvel Shazam type who had grown to middle age, forgotten his magic word and then suddenly gets it back and suddenly discovers that there's this whole hidden world that he had completely forgotten about.
00:06:58
Speaker
So that was a fascinating concept. So now I'm rereading the early issues, and it's just, it's very interesting to revisit this particular era, because we all know Alan Moore from Watchmen, obviously, we know him from the ABC stuff, you know, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but this is very early Alan Moore, where
00:07:16
Speaker
He's just starting to kind of become the Alan Moore that we know with the deconstruction. So it's very interesting to see that early stuff kind of collected and kind of given a fresh coat of paint. I'm very aware that this is going to be a dark ride because, you know, eventually we do get to that one issue that
00:07:36
Speaker
Whoo, it's not gonna be particularly fun. But so far it's interesting. I mean, but I'll withhold judgment, but I'm very interested in that. And I got queued up in the chamber the first omnibus compendium of Sandman Mystery Theater, you know, Matt Waggart. Oh, yes. Steven T. Steve and Guy Davis just doing the Lord's work. Now you talk about the Sandman Netflix series that we have now.
00:08:04
Speaker
And don't get me wrong, that is absolutely wonderful. I love it to death. But if they had one shot of like Wesley Dodds and that fucking gas mask, I would have made a sound that I think any of us could hear. Because like, don't get me wrong, like back in the day, I had a lot of I had respect for Sandman, but I was just like, I can't
00:08:20
Speaker
quite make that jump because just I was like the early stuff with the superheroes was kind of interesting but then they kind of went off on their own thing and I was like I have waited too long I have missed my moment but when Sandman Mystery Theater came out I'm a huge like golden age fan as we'll discuss later when we get into the meat and potatoes so the idea of like taking the Sandman character
00:08:43
Speaker
and exploring the kind of like the pulp sensibility while still setting it ostensibly in comics golden age, but cranking up the realism was very interesting to me. And that series is ready to become a Netflix show because there's such a cool dynamic between Wesley and Diane.
00:09:01
Speaker
where Wesley is very skilled and he has the prophetic dreams that keep pushing him, the dreams from Morpheus, they push him to try to go out there and see justice done. But Diane is the detective. She's the sleuth. The thing about Diane is that she's not just the damsel in distress. She has active agency and is super smart. In fact, when they revisit the characters later on down the road in James Robinson's Starman,
00:09:30
Speaker
Jack Knight is more stoked to meet Diane Belmont because she's like a mystery novelist.
00:09:36
Speaker
that he's really, really fond of. So it's a really fun like, and their relationship is just great. They're totally supportive of each other. They're like the Nick and Nora Charles of like the golden age superhero set. And then gradually as the series goes on, a lot of those golden age characters start bleeding in around the edges. Like there's the Phantom of the Fair Arc where we meet the Crimson Avenger. There's a Starman bit. Black Hawk shows up at one point.
00:10:02
Speaker
And it's just like, oh shit, all that's great. And when they would do the flashback times past sequences that would feature Wesley, they would bring in Guy Davis and he would illustrate them in that style, which was really cool. So yeah, I've got that one ready to go and it's great. And if, you know, you don't necessarily even have to be huge on superheroes, everybody. If you just like a good mystery kind of crime series that happens to feature a dude in a mask who like gasses people and knocks them out,
00:10:29
Speaker
You know, that's really great. And, yeah, the recent relaunch with Riley Rossimo, I read the first issue of that and found it really cool. I liked it. Oh, I didn't even know there.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, they're going to relaunch of it. Wow. They did it. They did it like in time for the new JSA series that Johns has been writing. They've done a couple spinoff books of like Green Lantern and the Flash featuring the Flash and his daughter. So the Flash will feature heavily here. So that'll be interesting.
Public Domain Speculation and Comic Histories
00:10:57
Speaker
And then there's also the the Sandman one, which is kind of like a semi sort of sequel. The events of Sandman Mystery Theater could have happened off stage. We don't know. But there's a very interesting wrinkle in that Wesley develops the gas
00:11:12
Speaker
the knockout gas to ostensibly be a pacifist weapon to help stop conflict. And this one general is just like, buddy, if we use this, how are we going to be like, how's it practical? Like, what is about killing people?
00:11:29
Speaker
and like you see Wesley's face and he's just like oh shit like oh yeah military industrial complex okay cool yeah it's a really good it's a really good series i've only gotten to read the first issue but very strong debut so yeah that's all the stuff that i'm into right now so how about you man like what are you been reading right now
00:11:49
Speaker
Well, I want to comment on what you had just said, too, because I mean, I've only read I've only read a little bit of Sandman Mysteries Theater and got the there are these two trades that DC had out, which apparently is not the whole collection. And I guess they just forgot about that line of trades that they were doing at one point. They got into like seven or eight or nine volumes. And then no, but I mean, the ones that were available digitally. They only had two. OK.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and so now they've released the omnibus you said so like now I just okay, so I gotta buy I gotta buy those two trades again basically Basically they are it's a hefty tome it collects I think the first The first 30 or 40 issues of the series, so it's really good It's got a couple of great storylines the initial storyline the tarantula is really really good very very very creepy too, so
00:12:37
Speaker
Yeah, I just read that first book and and yeah, oh my god It was it was great like I and I'm sorry And this is talking from somebody who is who is not really it was not a fan of the Golden Age Like I was saying I've never really got into the just society So all I knew about basically all I knew about Sandman was from what I'd seen in other stuff and you know from his you know Minor appearance in the in the game in Sandman. So that was it like that was the extent of my Sandman knowledge so so I went in completely cold and yet it
00:13:07
Speaker
really cool how they did that. And I think, you know, we'll probably be talking about this when we get into the Superman side of things here. But you know, people are talking about him, you know, entering the public domain in another 10 years. And we were just talking off off mic. And I'm just like, man, there's so much stuff I want to do. And there's so much stuff you can do when you put that character in the realistic setting, as opposed to the much more fantastical setting of that the comics did.
00:13:34
Speaker
And I think, you know, Sandman Mystery Theater proves that perfectly. I mean, it is, even if you don't know about, you know, superheroes, that is something that you can easily get into. And also, like you said, as soon as you started talking about Sandman Mystery Theater, I was thinking in my head, I'm like, man, they should really do a TV show about that. So you were speaking my mind.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And there's that one great crossover comic called Sandman Midnight Theater where, you know, Wesley actually meets Morpheus for like a brief moment. He discovers Morpheus is prison and Morpheus is like, oh you, I know you. There's a little bit of me in you. Can't be easy for you. Now forget. And Wesley walks out of the room like, what was that?
00:14:16
Speaker
And so it's a great little acknowledgement of it. And yeah, it would make for a really good Netflix series, like a very kind of like Miss Fisher's murder mysteries kind of vibe, but with a little more gothic ambiance, a lot more like maybe even bring in like some, and I can't believe I'm using this, like some Dick Tracy and elements, like make it look kind of like not quite reality, but yeah, that would be,
00:14:39
Speaker
But it would be a tough road to hoe to bring Guy Davis' visual sensibility to a screen. Because man, that guy is one of a kind. He's got the chops. So yeah, wonderful. I love that guy. But as for me, I have just started reading the Jeff Johns JSA run from the late 90s, I think that started in early 2000s. 1990s, I remember when James Robinson helped kind of bring the ship
00:15:09
Speaker
uh you know he kind of launched in the first couple issues he was a co-writer and then that's right like i noticed it's funny it's called the it's called the jeff john's collection but it starts off with stuff written by james robinson and david go here yeah yeah well you know uh robinson and or no johnson goyer i think we're kind of like
00:15:29
Speaker
Not necessarily acolytes of Robinson, but they kind of like, cause I remember Goyer did a lot of like writing as well on Starman near the tail end. Like when the Grand Gwen y'all arc opened up and we, when Culp made his attack on Opal City.
00:15:44
Speaker
And we kind of got the full story behind Culp and his relationship with Dickie Swift, a.k.a. The Shade and how all that went down. And, you know, it was it was it was, you know, Goya was very much a part of that. And I think Johns was he didn't really write for that, but I think Johns kind of like he was doing some other stuff. And then I think when he came on to JSA, that was his real his like one, I think not necessarily his biggest break, but definitely one of
00:16:12
Speaker
That's when I first started hearing his name. Yeah, he cut his teeth on that and he kind of like, he did something that I thought and my brother thought was nigh on impossible in that he took on Hawkman and look, real talk, Hawkman ain't ever gonna make any kind of fucking sense. Like that poor character has been jacked so many times by continuity, but he managed to kind of like,
00:16:40
Speaker
boil it down to the essentials and kind of make it make a bit more sense. And when he did his Hawkman run, that was really good too. And he gave it his all and he did make the JSA kind of a going concern for a little while there. Because in the modern day, in the cold light of day, I have to, as I get older, I have to admit to myself,
00:17:09
Speaker
Like real talk, the JSA ain't ever getting over. Like they're not gonna go over. Like they're good for short sprints. They're good for like every once in a while. But as we move forward, it's kind of like the Captain America problem, right? Like the further you keep moving ahead in time, the farther back World War II is and the longer Steve sleep before he comes back to life is. So it's like,
00:17:33
Speaker
We are at the point now that when I was a kid reading like All Star Squadron in the 1980s, the war was like 40 years ago. And Sherlock Holmes, which I was also reading, I was cutting my teeth on the Arthur Conan Doles Sherlock Holmes stories, was like a century ago. Now we're creeping up on the part where like World War II is almost where Sherlock Holmes was back when I was reading. So like it's 100 years ago. Like it's hard to get the kids excited about, you know,
Navigating DC's Multiverse Complexity
00:18:00
Speaker
Al Pratt the Golden Age Adam or and look it breaks my heart as a Ted as a Ted not Ted Cord Ted Grant Wildcat Fed Grant Yeah to be like this is this guy's so cool like he punches evil in the face And he's got nine lives that he was given by bast like what is not to love about this guy? Yeah, like I think it's I think it's me and Doc Shainer and
00:18:24
Speaker
two guys holding it down for Ted Grant. Like, oh, like it breaks my heart because there's some really fun characters in here. And unfortunately, you know, you know, it's hard to it's hard to keep them kind of relevant with the times when, you know, the 1940s was so very long ago, but they are. Yeah, because I mean, some of those characters, they they only work in that in that context, like it's hard for
00:18:47
Speaker
Like for Jay Garrick, like how are you gonna get excited about Jay Garrick when you got Barry Allen and Wally West and all the other guys around instead? Jay is great. He's everybody's grandpa and it's wonderful. I mean, that's why he works. I think that's why he works now. I think that's why he works so well in the Flash TV show. Plus it helped that you had John Leslie Shipp playing them too. Oh, absolutely.
00:19:08
Speaker
But you know what I was thinking too is, I think Captain America is like the only one you can get away with this because I think actually the further you get from World War II, the more sense Captain America, the more cap works as a character because that whole man out of time thing works so much better when more time has passed. Like when it's only been, you know,
00:19:26
Speaker
Was it like 20 years back when he first came out of the ice in the 60s? It's like, well, that's not really that long of a time. The world has not changed that much, Steve. You can calm down a little bit. But when 90 years or 100 years has passed, then it starts getting me like, oh, wow, now that strikes a different tone now.
00:19:47
Speaker
Yeah, it has some very Arthurian return from Avalon, England's greatest need kind of vibe to it, which is cool now that I put my head on it. But as much love as, and look, I treasure encountering the JSA when I was a kid through the pages of All Star Squadron by the god Roy Thomas and the deity Jerry Ordway, where just,
00:20:14
Speaker
It was a perfect book at a perfect time that just introduced me to all this crazy stuff that I had no idea existed. And look, I'm not gonna call Marv Wolfman or Paul Levitt's liars. I'm not gonna call them out. I'm not gonna put them on blast. But as one of those kids growing up in the 80s, pre-crisis on Infinite Earths, I was never confused by there being multiple Earths.
00:20:41
Speaker
I was never confused because there's always that little blurb like there's another Earth and it's called Earth 2 and here's where the heroes are. And that was like, and you know, look, I appreciate that they had to do the clearinghouse, but I'm just like, come on.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's that and I see this all the time. I've talked about this before. I see that a lot with the like Warner Brothers and how they're always like, well, back in the back when Smallville was on the air and they really want to do a Batman episode. They're like, well, we can't have Bruce Wayne appear in Smallville because then people will be confused when they see Bruce Wayne in the movie. So I'm like, no, they won't. And then now we've got like and it and even now after right now we've got, you know, we got Superman on TV, we got men in the movies and
00:21:25
Speaker
there's still this kind of thinking that persists that, well, you know, are people gonna get confused? And I'm like, no, people are not that stupid. Yes, as much as I love, you know, I respect, I love to tell you a strong word, I respect Dan DeDio for many things, but that whole bit where he was anti-else worlds for the longest time, because people would get confused by the notion of a quote unquote, real Batman. Dan, lean in close. There is no real Batman.
00:21:54
Speaker
I'm not trying to break your heart, my guy, but he's not real. It's just like- I mean, it reminds me of whatever we want. Yeah.
00:22:02
Speaker
It reminds me of that Grant Morrison quote, right? When he says like, you know, when kids understand these things, they can reconcile these things in their head. But adults get these stupid fucking ideas in their head about like who blows the tire, who fills up the air in the Batmobile's tires and all that kind of shit. Yes, absolutely. Like everything's got to fit into an Excel spreadsheet. Like people like, this is the cinema sensification.
00:22:27
Speaker
of media, and it drives me bananas. I think the one that made me almost throw furniture was the one where they were doing a thing on Blade Runner, and they were like, everything looks so run down and broken in the supposedly future. I'm like, this is cyberpunk! It's supposed to look broken! Like, oh my god!
00:22:46
Speaker
I needed to disconnect from the computer and do some deep breathing for like 10 minutes. I was like, I'm going to just go in the comments section and burn myself to the ground.
00:22:59
Speaker
So, you know, I think Derek and I talked about this at some point. It was probably when we did our episode on Christ's Uninfinated Earth, the the CW crossover. But, you know, and it's so funny in trying to make the DC continuity make sense, they only end up making it more confusing. It was back when it was all these different. It actually made more sense than it makes now.
00:23:22
Speaker
right like everything is imaginary they tried like they tried to put it away then they realized oh man we threw out a lot of really cool things like supergirl and the phantom zone and superboy in the legion and superboy in the legion and superboy in the legion which completely just wrecked
00:23:43
Speaker
just wrecked the poor legion of superheroes book and it never recovered like just like you just have to accept that this whole thing is imaginary and there are no limits but unfortunately as much as i love the official handbook of the marvel universe as much as i love dc comics who's who i love setting crunch guys we're going to get to the movie in a couple minutes don't even worry about it um but
00:24:05
Speaker
But as much as I love that set, that delicious setting crunch, I love stuff like, ooh, it's Ruby Quartz, or oh, it's an adamantium shield, or Spider-Man created his web shooters, and here's some schematics of them. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. As J. Michael Straczynski once wrote, starfuries fly at the speed of plot.
00:24:25
Speaker
There's nothing to worry about, baby. It's all made up. And unfortunately, I think a lot of people in this day and age, a lot of people are looking to get the gotcha moment of like, oh, that doesn't make sense. How did Indiana Jones survive getting to the island when he was clinging to the periscope? I'm like, it's because he's Indiana Jones.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah. That's why. Like, if he doesn't, there's no plot. If he drowned on the way, it'd be a pretty short movie, wouldn't it? Did you ever watch Supernatural? I did a little bit. I watched the first season and then unfortunately I kind of fell off and it was another like, I've waited too long. It was another Sandman.
00:25:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's 15 seasons long and it's. Yeah. And they and they they they kept it going. They kept it going. They kept it. But I will say to their credit, like I actually enjoyed it for most of those 15 seasons and it's, you know, drop offs here and there. But the chemistry of the yeah, the chemistry of the leads alone made it worth watching all throughout. And it helped that they they were like brothers in real life. So that
00:25:33
Speaker
that really helped their, that chemistry really came through and it made it entertaining even when they hit those valleys. But there's this one time when they had...
00:25:43
Speaker
So in the last season, they're going after God, right? And so it's like, it's like, all right. Maybe that's another reason I like it. It's like a JRP, live action JRPG, right? They start off, you know, driving around these back roads, hunting monsters and whatnot. And then in the end, you have to kill God. Killing rats in the kitchen to going to take on God. Okay. All right. I get it.
00:26:07
Speaker
So, and then God decides to strike back at them by removing their plot armor, literally removes their plot armor. Like, so because it's like the whole idea is like, this is, you know, you've been the heroes of this story and that's why you've been able to get away with so much stuff. And then all of a sudden, everything in the episode becomes so much harder for them to deal with. It's, it's hilarious. That's actually sounds fascinating. That's like when Jack Slater ends up in the real world and last action hero.
00:26:35
Speaker
And yes, everybody, I just referenced Last Action Hero, come at me. Which is an underrated movie. Underrated, like so fun. And that soundtrack is a banger. I will stack it up against most any other movie soundtracks of the 90s.
00:26:49
Speaker
Again, come out. But anyway, JSA, Just Society, World War II.
Justice Society World War II Movie Review
00:26:55
Speaker
So this is one of the, this is one of the Tomorrowverse movies. This is the, it's the second installment. It takes place after Mad of Tomorrow. Yes. Which is another one I gotta, I gotta go back and rewatch and because they- I think I might have to pull the trigger too, yeah.
00:27:12
Speaker
Might have, yeah, because, you know, when I watched it the first time, I'm like, oh, it's okay. I didn't really think too much of it, but I think I was kind of like half in, half out. I think I was busy with other stuff, had other stuff in my mind. Because, you know, frequent guest Anthony Desiado, he had done an episode of Digging for Crypt and I recently where he had had the, one of the writers of that movie on and they were talking about, I'm just like, man, this actually sounds pretty damn awesome. I got to go back and rewatch that movie.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Again, like when I first watched this one, I was very kind of taken with it. And I meant to pick up like, like Long Halloween, and then, you know, Superman Man of Tomorrow. I was very interested, but you know, I was like,
00:27:51
Speaker
Well, it's an origin joint. And I just like, look, I'm just gonna be 100% real with everyone here. As Batman fans are sick of the pearls, if I've got to watch that goddamn rocket leave the exploding planet one more fucking time,
00:28:09
Speaker
I'm just going to start engaging in primal scream therapy. Because look, guys, we get it. We get it. Like, Grant Morrison boiled it down to the essentials, like, doomed planet, desperate scientist, last whole kind of couple. Let's go. Like, just, I get it. Unless somebody has been living in a cave somewhere, everybody knows how Superman got to be Superman. And I'm tired of all the navel gazing at, like, oh, this is his origin. This is where he gets his power. I get it. I've seen, like, Upteen gazillion movies.
00:28:38
Speaker
depicting that on comics depicting that like Superman birthright the champagne like Mark Wade the general creating that awesome story where like I still sometimes go back and look at that sequence where Superman goes into the gun owner shop and just fucking loads the gun and fires the gun and then catches the bullet at the last second like that little girl had to live with that and now you do too and I'm like that is the coldest shit at the gate
00:29:05
Speaker
Batman can take as many dudes up on the top of the high building as he wants, but that shit where Superman fired a gun in that dude's face is metal as hell. And that Leno you are to forget about it. But yeah, I just, it's just Superman's origin has been done to me. But having watched this again and kind of being like,
00:29:28
Speaker
Yeah, man, Darren Criss is a really good Superman. Like, I really, I quite like his portrayal. I like the animation style. I'd be curious to see what they do, because I know, like, the big villain of it's the Parasite, and there's also, like, Lobos in it, and Martian Manhunter, so I'm like, it's not necessarily going to be a one-to-one, so maybe I'll, I mean, yeah, one of these days, I'll get a copy of the disc. I'll go to my local video store here, Rough Cup Video, put an order for it.
00:29:55
Speaker
I love getting physical media and just sit down and watch it because it, you know, like twist my rubber arm to enjoy a Superman story. I'm like, and you know, especially one like this, getting back on topic, um, because this is like Nazis and punching out evil and just, and just the, like, I get the feeling that the tomorrow verse team really understand the assignment because God damn it,
00:30:20
Speaker
The moment you cue this thing up, they're like, oh yeah, it's a golden age joint. Yeah, it's a 1940s period movie. Hi, everybody. They literally start with turning on an old style projector. And I was like, yep, here we go. Yup, yup, yup. I'm on board.
00:30:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was it was a fun film. And, you know, and I think just to get off topics for another minute here, but another off topic. When have we been off topic ever in this episode? What have we ever gone off the rails? None of you can prove anything.
00:30:55
Speaker
But that Superman origin in All-Star Superman that Grant Morrison did your reference, because James Gunn has talked about how big of a fan he is of that book. I do wonder if he's going to use that origin beat in Superman Legacy now.
00:31:08
Speaker
I mean, you've got to at this point because we've seen the origin over and over and over again. If you want to do it, just do it with the dialogue and just do recreations of the Frank Quietly art. Remember in Spider-Man 2 where they revisit the events of Spider-Man 1 with those awesome art? Oh, yeah. That'd be awesome.
00:31:28
Speaker
doomed planet, desperate scientists, and just go through that and then we cut to just Superman in space. Or you do that Paul Dini opening that Paul Dini wanted to do for a Superman one. Do you know that one? No, I don't. Okay, so a couple years ago, many moons ago actually, when Paul Dini and Bruce Timm were guests, and Alan Burnett were guests at the Calgary Expo.
00:31:51
Speaker
We were friends with a gentleman who ran the show and so we had a chance to meet every a lot of the celebrities when they came we all had like a pizza dinner because we were helping out in volunteering and so I sat with Paul Dini and and his wife misty Lee and You know, we talked we were talking shop and he talked about how like he had an idea for the opening of Superman movie But it would never see the light of day that he said so basically
00:32:18
Speaker
All right, this is pretty fucking cool. I'm going to try to replicate it. This is a conversation from over 20 years ago, and I am a Finding Dory kind of person. So take everything I say with a grain of salt, but these are the rough beats. So we open on Apocalypse.
00:32:31
Speaker
And there's Darkseid giving a speech to an army of parademons. And he's going, triumph of the will, all that kind of shit. And we start to slowly pan out. And we pan out further and further. You see the fire pits of apocalypse. You see the entire world, this fascist shithole just floating in space with new genesis off in the distance. And then all of a sudden, you see this distant point of light.
00:32:57
Speaker
and slowly we move back in space back in space back in space back in space until all of a sudden we're moving forward with what we thought was that clip but we don't get a good look at it and so we're just watching as this this this this thing this like this forward momentum keeps going scums up to dark to uh to uh apocalypse comes through the atmosphere comes over the rally and then fucking superman just
00:33:22
Speaker
Bluh devastates Darkseid. Like just punches him in the damn face. Like that two flying, like two fists forward Superman thing and just levels Darkseid. Like bricks and shit are falling off his face. Superman has hit him so hard and we open with that. Superman storms apocalypse and fucking wrecks Darkseid's shit. And I'm like, sir?
00:33:53
Speaker
I'm like mid bite of my pizza. I'm like looking at him like, are you kidding me? Like that was the craziest. That's so good. I would, I would love for something with that energy. Like, yeah. Yeah. You all want dark side. Well, here he is. Fucking problem. There he goes. Superman, Superman drags dark side to OA. They put him in a science cell and then
00:34:19
Speaker
And then there you go. First major problem solved. I was like, that is baller as hell. Although the problem is then, what do you do after that though? I can definitely understand. I totally know why he says that. It'll never see the light of day because it's like, once you do that magic trick, it's like the Daffy Duck bit. I can only do that once.
00:34:42
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It would be a Superman short film. Like, if it was a short film, like, holy shit. Oh, that would be awesome. That would be an awesome short film. Amazing. Like, that one guy, there's that one animator on YouTube. He did a couple of Superman in the Golden Age kind of shorts. And he had the actor who originally played the first Superboy from the Superboy TV show to play Clark in Superman. And his wife plays Lois Lane. It's a little brief thing. It's like only a couple seconds. And it's basically
00:35:08
Speaker
what I wanted when I first saw Sky Captain in the world of tomorrow, we're gonna get to the movie folks, I promise you. And like with all the flying robots. And I was like, man, if the golden age Superman just showed up in the middle of this, I would flip out like a period Superman movie. Oh my God, stop it. Like adapt Tom DeHaven's It's Superman. And just have it be a period Superman movie. Oh my God.
00:35:34
Speaker
injected into my veins. A chance to see Superman actually lift the actual car and smash it to shit and just briefly recreate the action comics number one cover, stop it. Stop it, it's too powerful. It's too powerful. I would be the happiest boy in the world, but that movie would only be made for like me and maybe you, Perry. Like we'd be the only ones. But this is amazing though. Nobody else would get it.
00:36:03
Speaker
No, probably not. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna crack that pretty sure Anthony Desiata would dig it as well. So yeah That's like the three that's the three Maybe Michael Bailey we could bring him in as well. Yeah, the four of us would all go and we would we would watch it so crazy
00:36:23
Speaker
All right. But Justice Society, so one of the things I thought was interesting about this was the actual Justice Society team, they chose to represent the team here because you've got- It's lean and mean, yeah.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, you've got, you know, Wonder Woman who, and that was my first clue that this was another reality, right? When they said when it's Diana, I'm like, Oh, okay, I see what they're doing here. So it's not going to be. So because my first impression when I'd seen like the trailer and stuff like I thought it would be Hippolyta like it was in the in the 90s series in the JSA comics. Yeah, right. One of the few things John Burr never did that was actually pretty cool.
00:37:00
Speaker
Oh, was that John Byrne who came up with that idea? It was Byrne. And during the Gateway City arc, when he was writing and drawing Wonder Woman, he came up with the idea of having Hippolyta go back in time and be the Golden Age Wonder Woman. And that was kind of the origin of that. So, you know, tip of the hat to him before his tragic disappearance.
00:37:23
Speaker
I did not know that. I actually thought that was as a result of, because I remember Hippolyta was in, you know, more since JLA run. And that was based on like, there was like a death of Wonder Woman story. I've never been a Wonder Woman. I've never read any Wonder Woman comic books. I've never. I'm not the hugest Wonder Woman fan, but I did read the burn run because I went through a pretty heavy burn phase. Yeah. So it's like I'm totally just speaking from like second and third hand knowledge here. But, you know, I remember that Hippolyta replaced
00:37:49
Speaker
Diana and the Justice League for a brief period of time and then shortly after that was when the JSA run came out So I thought the whole thing about her being in the just society and all that I thought that was you know based off what was happening with the Wonder Woman books at that time So I didn't realize it went as far back as Burns run. Yeah
00:38:06
Speaker
Um, so yeah, so that was my first clue that I'm like, okay, we're dealing with another reality here. Like he's, he's, he's gone. They're not doing the, they're not doing the post crisis JSA where they, they, they were like the, the lead in into the modern age and all that. Instead we are doing the earth one, earth two version things. Um, and that was my first clue that I'm like, Oh, I bet Superman's going to show up then.
00:38:30
Speaker
Uh, and, um, but then the rest of the team though, right? You know, obviously Jay Garrick, you know, totally makes sense. Like in every single like JSA thing, I've got it. You always see Jay Garrick there. Yeah. Um,
00:38:44
Speaker
And Hawkman too makes a lot of sense. I know he's got a lot of association with the JSA, especially like you said, John's brought him back in that title. And then you've got, well, Dr. Fate is not really a member of the team. He just has like, he's just kind of like there. Yeah, he's the MacGuffin, essentially. Right. Yeah. He helps out. He drops a lot of cryptic lines that now in retrospect, I'm like, oh, that's teeing up for something else.
00:39:07
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, and then we got and then but then we get our man and and the Dynadrake black Canary and I thought and then like one of the things that surprised me and I'm like, there's no there's no of Oh god, I'm gonna feel like such an idiot when I'm not complaining on his name the Green Lantern.
00:39:27
Speaker
Alan Scott, Green Lantern. Alan Scott, yes, yes. I was so surprised. Like, why isn't Alan Scott in this? That was like my biggest shocker, that. I think at this point, the Green Lantern movie and the Tomorrowverse hadn't come out yet. I think it's like
00:39:42
Speaker
No, yeah, this was the second one. This was the second movie in the Tomorrowverse. This was the second joint. So, yeah, so I don't think they touched that ground yet, but I did find it interesting. Like, the Dinoland's Black Canary, where it's like, oh, she has the sonic power. So that's kind of like a mix of the classic and modern. And by the end of it, when she takes off the domino mask and it's like, oh, yeah, she's fully Black Canary now. Like, holy shit. Yeah. And of course, our man, who I have a lot of affection for, because he is, of course, the only superhero chivalrous enough to tell you his weakness in his name.
00:40:12
Speaker
That's what I was thinking about. All you gotta do is wait 60 minutes. All you gotta do is box him in.
00:40:20
Speaker
I could not stop thinking about that the entire time. I did this comic book about Paragons of Earth with a bunch of Golden Age public domain characters. And I've been diving into these characters and researching them and thinking about ways to use them. And just reading through some of these descriptions, I'm just like, man, the writers back then had some really wonky ideas for gimmicks for these characters. Because my impression of our man was based on
00:40:50
Speaker
what I'd seen from the robotic hour man from like the JSA series from he popped up in JLA. So I'm thinking like, yo, he's got some like time related abilities, but it's like, no, he just has like super strength, but it's only for an hour and he can only do it once a day. I'm like, that is like the worst fucking superpower to have. It is so inconvenient. It's right up there with the red bee and his belt of trained bees for just like, what the hell are you actually, what are you smoking? And can I have a quick talk of that? Cause it must be potent.
00:41:19
Speaker
But I have an affection for Our Man as a concept because it's just so goofy and yet it fits in so well. And like, oh hey, and just for anybody out there who's into Critical Role or anything, Our Man Rex Tyler is voiced by Matt Mercer, who is the dungeon master of Critical Role and also the impetus behind the animated series on Amazon Prime. So that was a fun bit of, I was like, oh shit, I recognize that voice.
00:41:47
Speaker
And so, you know, and our man himself is a concept, like it's just a neat idea where it's like, oh, well, this was back in the day when pharmaceuticals were our friends. Like there was no opioid crisis. Like you, you know, you had like the cure for polio and all this kind of stuff. And like pharmaceuticals were meant to save the day. And so, you know, Rex Tyler, a chemist comes up with a formula that gives him that makes him the golden age Superman. And he does pull off a lot of golden age Superman stuff before Superman shows up. And spoiler alert, everybody.
00:42:17
Speaker
but yeah, it's just like, he does a lot of cool stuff. And like, he is like, hey man, we gotta hurry up. I'm down to my last 10 minutes before like, it's over. And like, he's managing like flip tanks and like rip the, rip the armor open and all that kind of stuff. And it's pretty cool. And it's interesting to have a superhero that has that limitation because, you know, that would make for a very interesting kind of, you know, like they explored it in the more modern age stuff where like Miraclo,
00:42:46
Speaker
has a lot of drawbacks, like it wrecks your body. And so Rex Tyler Jr. suffered a lot when he was in Infinity, Inc. There was a whole arc in there about how Miraclo just basically devastated his body.
00:43:03
Speaker
And so I had read about that because I was really curious about this guy when I found out that out from the from the movie that I never knew what his powers were before this. And I look it up and I'm like and I saw that stuff about the you know, the addiction to it and how it had wrecked his body and all that. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is actually pretty interesting. Yeah, I just can't get over that hour time limit. I can only do it once a day. It's it's it's it's interesting. And of course, there was the robot chicken bit where like they made a joke of the hour man miraculous like Viagra.
00:43:31
Speaker
Get you going for an hour and you know that kind of stuff and there but there were some interesting stuff that kind of fell out of that I'm not sure if it was in JSA or another thing where it's like they kind of traced. Like the miraculous development and they kind of like linked it to venom.
00:43:46
Speaker
in that, you know, it's enhancing thing. Like I'm not sure, take it with a grain of salt. That might just- No, no, no, I think there's, that, I don't know for sure, but that rings a bell of familiarity in my head. So I think there's something, yeah, there's something connected to that. But yeah, but he's an interesting character. And then wasn't that, wasn't that used in Arrow then? Wasn't that that drug that Slade is using? I wanna say it. There's like Miracudu or something like that, or it was like inspired by it or something.
00:44:16
Speaker
Referenced Tyler Pharmaceuticals a couple times in the Berlanti verse, but they never actually gave us an app. Well, our man did show up in Stargirl, but that's a different earth. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all interconnected and interwoven, but.
00:44:32
Speaker
I just like that character and there was, you know, there's some great bits of business with him in later JSA stuff where, like, Miraclo is very obviously addictive in certain books in the flashbacks with the JSA in World War II. You know, Charles McKnight, or AKA Dr. Midnight, is always on his case. Like, you really should go easy with that stuff, man. You have no idea what kind of long-term side effects it'll have. And Rex Tyler's like, ah, Pasha, let me just pop another pill in a couple hours, I'll be fine.
00:44:57
Speaker
but uh yeah he's a he's a fun character it was an interesting pull i would have thought like maybe robot man or if you needed like a brick like i don't know like i mean wildcat i mean i love wildcat well yeah wildcat's like when you think of the jsa at least at least for me you know again not having that much familiarity with it but i think my my mind goes right to like
00:45:20
Speaker
Alan Scott and Jay Garrick those are the first two I think of automatically later off and then if I was to if I was gonna think about a little bit more I'd be like, oh, yeah, then you've got Wildcat in there and then you've got Hawkman So those are the those are like the ones I'd think of right right off the top of my head But I would not think of our man first and I do, you know, I also appreciate the pole but I was like, holy shit Yeah
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah, I thought the lineup they went with was was interesting because I think even people who unless you're a fan of the JSA I think but if you're not a fan of the JSA, but you've heard of them before I don't think you would be expecting this lineup. So again, it was kind of a there's some interesting choices there. Oh, definitely like it's a it's a great lean and mean lineup that kind of evokes like the kind of
00:46:08
Speaker
for lack of a better term, lower scale of the Golden Age heroes, where it's like, you've got, okay, you got one super powerful brick. And then you've got Hawkman, who's kind of like a winged fighter. You got Dinoland's as the scrapper. You've got...
00:46:22
Speaker
like our man as the tank as another tank, but he's on a time limit. And you've got Jay Garrick who ostensibly can just pluck guns out of people's hands. And like, there's that whole sequence where he just ruins that entire Nazi platoons good day. It just takes them apart as super speed. And you understand why so many writers are like speedsters, man.
00:46:46
Speaker
So what were some of the things that kind of jumped out at you, jumped out at you this time? Well, I watching it again for the first time, I appreciated the touches like they open with opening credits, they list the stars, they go through like this whole black and white sequence.
00:47:01
Speaker
And, you know, just starting off with, you know, we, we start in the modern the world of the modern day. And it was nice to see. It was nice to see them tee up things that now I know are going to pay off later like Barry and Iris and their relationship.
00:47:19
Speaker
issues where like Barry's like he wants he's he's very jazzed to be with her. But at the same time, he's, he's just he's worried about everything. He's trying to micromanage things down to the last thing. And Iris is just like, Hey, man, just you just got to be here now. That's all I really want. And like, are we doing anything? It's been years. Are we a couple? Are we not a couple? And that was kind of interesting.
00:47:41
Speaker
And then we lead into like, they're on a day trip to Metropolis from Central City. So it's kind of interesting to be like, okay, so how close is Central City to Metropolis? Like, did they hop a bus? Or did Barry just carry her? Like, how did they take the picnic basket? But I'm not getting lost in those reads.
00:47:57
Speaker
Because for navigation and navigation in the DC stuff has never really made much sense. I mean, it's I remember when in in Smallville, apparently like Metropolis was supposedly three hours away. They had said in the early seasons. And then later on, Clark's Clark and Lois are like commuting to Metropolis from Smallville. Yeah, it's like one bus ride away. And you're just like, I'm very odd. Like, I don't know. Like these comic book geography is all over the yard.
00:48:24
Speaker
but yeah or then all of that abandoned the superman where um you know metropolis and gotham are just right across the bay from each other you said the unholy word trying not to think about that um
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah, but anyway, forget all that because we cut to like that awesome like Superman brainiac fight and the brainiac design is really cool. And you know, we and there was just some fun bits of business just in terms of like Barry accidentally discovers quote unquote time travel when he goes fast enough to save Superman from the kryptonite bullet and then the interactions like
00:49:04
Speaker
where Flash has no idea what's going on. Cause it's very clear that he's still kind of a relative noob, like all the Tomorrowverse heroes are not the experienced like league heroes that we know of. So he has no idea what's going on at first. And then, you know.
00:49:20
Speaker
And just all the dynamics between the JSA characters and just the whole bit where Franklin Delano Roosevelt's there and Steve Trevor makes the whole pitch for the JSA. I was like, yes, yes, this is all that I want. This is all that I want. Yeah, I love that stuff too. I love it when they're able to actually weave in actual history into superhero stuff. And it's something that it's not always done well, but when it is, it is so cool.
00:49:48
Speaker
It is very cool and like that whole bit where they actually like they showed the map of Europe and there was that very prominent swastika and I was like, holy shit, you actually, you actually showed it. I know a lot of times these days, if you're trying to get it overseas, particularly in Germany, you don't do a lot of that. And the German soldiers, you know, didn't traditionally wear
00:50:08
Speaker
the swastika that much as far as I know, like the ground troops, you know, you had certain officers and whatnot that were there. Oh, that explains it, because I was wondering about that, because at first I thought, I'm like, wait, are they afraid to actually call the Nazis? Are they afraid to actually show it? Right. Oh, I don't know. That makes sense. Then later they showed the Nazis. I'm like, oh, absolutely. And that's that makes sense. Yeah.
00:50:27
Speaker
But I think, yeah, but I think because, you know, and the thing like, and this is going to be one of my little kind of fetches, but don't worry about it, because in the main, I liked the movie. But I was just like, man, if we could get like Baron Blitzkrieg, or Axis America, or fucking Perdagaton in this piece, because Perdagaton would be amazing, because he's a time traveling villain. So he'd be like, oh, that would be after you.
00:50:50
Speaker
That would have been a really good, yeah, that's interesting that he held that route. You're right, that would have been very interesting given the fact that you've got Barry coming in from another Earth. That would be another clue that there's something not right about how he got here. Yeah, yeah.
00:51:06
Speaker
Now, something else I was wondering about, and again, this is me coming into the Just Society from like second and third hand knowledge, so I could be wrong, and you being the guy who's a little bit more knowledgeable, you can correct me, but my understanding of Hawkman is that he's like the most hardcore member of the JSA, and here it felt like he was a little bit timid compared to Diana. Did you get that feeling too?
00:51:31
Speaker
I get the feeling that with Diana and Hawkman, I think that they played up that he is, I think he's just, he's older and he's a bit more seasoned and he's willing to like, he's willing to step back and he takes more of a mentor role, particularly to Black Canary.
Character Dynamics and Thematic Discussions
00:51:51
Speaker
and kind of takes her under his wing and, you know, is kind of like trying to tell her not to turn her back on the world, which I found was interesting. Like Hawkman is basically like Diana's lieutenant, which I find very interesting because in the comics themselves, Hawkman's the leader of the All-Star Squadron when they're out in the field, like the All-Star Squadron in the name of like Roosevelt's assembled force of superheroes.
00:52:21
Speaker
But that was that like a precursor to the JSA? Well, the JSA started up first and then when the war kicked off, Franklin Delano Roosevelt assembled all the heroes in North America and ostensibly was like, you are going to fight for American freedom. You will all be known as the All-Star Squadron. So it was all the heroes, the JSA and all the independent heroes, you know, like the Jester, the human bomb, like freedom fighters, that sort of stuff.
00:52:48
Speaker
but there was a unique wrinkle in that you would think with like all the golden age heroes and all the, and the specter for God's sake, you would think the war would be over in about 0.92 seconds, but the wrinkle was, they even mentioned it at the top of this movie, Hitler is obsessed with artifacts, like mystical relics and whatnot. So in working with the Japanese sorcerer, the dragon king,
00:53:17
Speaker
They created a, they use the Spear of Logenus to create mystical barriers around the Axis nations. And so what would happen is any superheroes with powers cross the border, their allegiance would flip from the Allies to the Axis.
00:53:34
Speaker
And so that explained why World War II was fought by just, you know, regular Joes and Janes or the non-powered heroes like Wildcat, the Adam, Commander Steel, like they would go behind enemy lines, but they didn't have powers, so they weren't subject to the prohibition.
00:53:50
Speaker
So that right. I remember, I remember, I remember reading about that here or hearing about it, I should say. But yeah, but the All-Star Squadron was kind of like the assembled group of Golden Age heroes. So the JSA is just, you know, the team. Yeah. So unique. OK, OK. Yeah. Yeah. So so it seems that they kind of like combined the JSA with the All-Star Squadron then with essentially, yeah, then together. Yeah.
00:54:13
Speaker
And mixed in a little like invaders DNA, like maybe they're public heroes, but they're more like top secrets. So actually maybe more like BPRD in the Hellboy movies where it's like, nobody knows, like we're just keeping this on the DL. All that stuff is just hearsay. Because they've got a staff reporter, Shakespeare, who is writing all their essentially the propaganda and making sure it centers the soldiers first.
00:54:40
Speaker
So their activities on the down Hawkman is a prototype weapon Well, you mentioned the black and airy thing too like was it just me or you detect like some sort of a little bit more than just like a mentor mentee relationship with them
00:54:57
Speaker
Oh, Black Canary very much wants it to be more of something deeper. Because I think she's quite smitten with him. And he's like, well, what about your American detective friend? But she doesn't realize, when he's talking about his soulmate, he's talking about somebody else. And unfortunately, she wants a little more. But unfortunately, Hawkman, he's destined to be with Shaira till the end of time.
00:55:22
Speaker
like you know they find each other and then they lose each other that's the blessing and the curse of the hawks so but i did like his portrayal in the movie i thought he was he was much different from the kind of snarly hawkman that you know i've kind of known from like like as much as i love
00:55:38
Speaker
the Jeff Johns run, there is that great issue where Green Arrow shows up and is just like, let me see if I get this straight. You are thousands of years old and you are stalking an 18 year old girl because she is the reincarnation of your love.
00:55:54
Speaker
buddy can we have a conversation about this and like and you know carter is like and you think you have a leg to stand on ollie do you think you are going to talk to me about fidelity like yeah it was great i'm munching popcorn the whole time and then dina literally has to break them both up it's amazing and what's that one my favorite line of it is um my favorite line from that issue is uh
00:56:21
Speaker
you know there's an ancient egyptian word for you oliver and he's like really what's that schmuck they both just die laughing uh so good yeah oh man that was yeah that was in um was that
00:56:36
Speaker
that winnocks green arrow run i think right i think it was either winnocks green arrow or i think it was kevin smith in the corner no definitely wasn't kevin smith i knew that i know it's it was so i don't think so no i'm pretty sure it was winnocks then yeah because i remember reading that fairly recently because i i picked up uh winnocks green arrow trades or the ones that that are actually available uh fairly recent golden age hero that would have been appropriate here like
00:56:59
Speaker
green arrow, like put him in his classic like Robin Hood looking outfit and have him show up here throwing some boxing glove arrows. That would have been amazing. So that would have been interesting, too. I was also, you know, because they, you know, they have Wonder Woman, they've got Superman, too, but they don't have any any mention of Batman either. So I thought that was exactly which was wild, because when we picked this movie, I mentioned maybe we do Gotham by gaslight. And you mentioned that you were kind of Batmanned out. So we ended up a little bit. Yeah.
00:57:27
Speaker
where there's neither hide nor hair of this guy so that was actually pretty handy i thought that was i thought that was pretty fun so it was yeah yeah it was a it was a good move on their part because otherwise you probably wouldn't be talking about this movie right now exactly but i did think it was uh it was an interesting omission when they've got you know you know two thirds of the trinity there
00:57:48
Speaker
You would think, you would think there might be some mention of like, maybe there was like a, maybe a newspaper in Metropolis where like, caked back creature sighted in Gotham or something like that, like winged creature or something. Right, yeah, yeah. Or like, even like a mention during Steve Trevor's briefing or something about like, you know, the guy in Gotham. Yeah, the guy in Gotham, we tried to reach out to him, but...
00:58:12
Speaker
We couldn't really get a hold of him. He's not very trustful of the old government, but yeah, yeah, it was good. And of course, you know, just the overall like the Indiana Jones-ish kind of plot where it's like they've got the mystical relics and then we've got to go here to break a code and like we find Dr. Fate in the castle and like, whew.
00:58:36
Speaker
Like so much good stuff. Like I mentioned earlier, that castle set is amazing. And when Diana just fucking storms the gate, like she like we haven't talked about how fucking brutal she is in this movie. Like she is. Yeah. Well, we talked about we talked about Wonder Woman fairly recently. I think it was like maybe the last episode I'd recorded here. And it was
00:59:01
Speaker
And one of the things we commented on, I talked about how a lot of times in more modern times, they tend to overemphasize Diana's warrior qualities. Whereas in the Wonder Woman movie, they did a nice job of striking a balance. She is, and this person is all about peace and love and all that, but she'll throw down when she's got to.
00:59:21
Speaker
And I thought they did a really good job. This one is very much the much more like I'm going to throw down. I'm going to, you know, bash your face in type of Wonder Woman. Yeah. What she takes on that cadre of Nazis at the beginning of the movie are like, oh, those men are all dead. They are all dead. They are not getting back up. But then you come to realize, as the movie goes on,
00:59:42
Speaker
You know, something happened to Themyscira. Like, there's a line where she's like, what happened to my island could happen to the world. And I was like, holy shit, did the Nazis nuke Themyscira? Did they destroy Themyscira somehow? Like, holy shit, is Diana the last Amazon? That's crazy. I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. But that's later down the road in the movie, because we're doing the MacGuffin chase.
01:00:10
Speaker
the storming of the castle is amazing. Barry's reaction to being in, ostensibly, the past is really great, where it's like, oh, I can't affect the future. Yeah, I saw that movie, got it. And all due credit to the voice actor who plays Barry, but I kind of wish we had Rosenbaum, man. I kind of wish we had Rosenbaum, because I think a lot of those humorous beats would pop a little better. But I understand, I understand why. Who also, Matt Bomer, who also does Negative Man on Doom Patrol.
01:00:40
Speaker
Oh, really? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. That's why his voice sounded familiar. Yeah. Cause I was like, this guy sounds familiar. And I'm not sure if I know Darren Criss from anything, but I was like, there's a familiar quality to his voice. He does have a familiar quality, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But he plays a great part, like when he's playing Shakespeare in the movie. Like the first time I saw this, I'm gonna just level with you, Perry. I was absolutely snowed.
01:01:06
Speaker
I didn't realize what was happening until a certain scene happened. And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. And in fact, you know, it's funny because I'm thinking of the whole, you know, the the whole thing about Superman. It's like, how can you not tell, you know, just the glasses and then you're able to be fooled? Yeah. And then here he is walking around right in front of me and I don't pick up on it. Same voice actor.
01:01:29
Speaker
Yes, like I was completely fooled like oh my god, it was brilliant It wasn't until his encounter with commande in the cell where I was like, holy shit That's who it is. That's who it amazing like and then you talk about stopping mid-mouthful of popcorn I was like, holy shit. Is this this kid is
01:01:51
Speaker
This kid is commanding. This kid is commanding, and he's giving him the Superman suit. Like I was sent back in time. I did not even define you. I did not even catch that. Oh, wow. I was like, I was sent back to find you, because he's got the package. I have this package for you. I have to get it to you, and it's the Superman uniform. And I was like, are you telling me that's the Superman uniform from the future, where they're all doing the Olympics to try to be worthy of that uniform, and then they send him back in time to give it to the Golden Age Superman? Are you kidding me?
01:02:19
Speaker
Like, there's so many bits that now that I know the crisis on Infinite Earths exists, that I'm like, oh shit, this all ties back into this and that. Especially when we find out who the real villain of the piece is. Because buckle up kids, it's out of nowhere. Of all the villains they could have picked, I was like, Ultra Humanite, Alexei Luthor, like somebody from the period.
01:02:43
Speaker
And it was technically, but technically not, as we will find out in due course, but holy shit. I stopped again in popcorn. Let's just get to it right now then. It's a psychopath. I mean, it's the psychopath, yeah. It's the fucking psychopath. But it's, he's a Nazi. And I was like, okay, bold choice. Making an already pretty skeezy character, even skeezier. But again, this comes to one of my other quibbles where it's like,
01:03:13
Speaker
Motherfucker, if you are gonna do this...
01:03:16
Speaker
have to do it right. He's not in his real clothes. He's not in the outfit. If you're gonna do it, if you're gonna have him play the Vizier for a while, have it turn out that he was using an Atlantean imaging inducer or some shit. And it turns out, surprise, it's the Psycho Pirate. Shit, that would have been amazing. Maybe one of the Golden Age, Jay Garrick's like, oh shit, it's the Psycho Pirate. And Barry's like, oh, and it's like,
01:03:44
Speaker
Don't let him get a good look at you. Like, just, oh my God, yes. But, you know, and I never thought I would see Aquaman Seagale. I was like, oh, wow. Okay. Okay. I guess we're doing this. And did you detect when you're looking at Aquaman,
01:04:09
Speaker
did you detect a little Namor in his design, like the art style? Like I saw a little Namor in his face, like the hair of course is blonde, but I was like, he's definitely feeling that Namor from the invaders role, but also mixed in with early Namor was just, I'm just gonna come to the surface and wreck the surface world. Where, you know, it's obviously Psycho Pirate whispering in his ear, but there's a lot of, there's a little of that DNA in there too, which I thought was,
01:04:33
Speaker
was pretty cool. So yeah, I mean, you know, I didn't think about that at the time, but now that you mentioned it, and I'm just looking back at the at some of the screenshots of him. I can see it. Yeah. And definitely, yeah. And definitely the whole like, you know, attacking the surface world type stuff. So I think this is probably some of that invaders influence you you were talking about. Absolutely. Because there's some moments when Diana is handling her shield, she does the kickstand.
01:04:58
Speaker
like she kicks the shield up and catches it like Captain America. And I was like, I understood that reference. Like there's some, there's some, there's some fun DNA. There's some nods of the hat to Joe Johnston and his team for first adventure where it's just like, I see a couple of shots here. Like when they're all like,
01:05:15
Speaker
when basically Steve Trevor is like that cop in Dark Knight Returns, like, hey, man, you're in for a show tonight, son. And you watch the JSA just pimp on up to wreck shit. You got J. Garrett doing those stretches. Like, everybody's kind of like getting ready, like, oh, shit, it's about to go down. So that was pretty fun. And yes, that DNA was there. And Psycho Pirate, as a Nazi, I can kind of see it. But then later, he disappears. And I was like,
01:05:45
Speaker
Oh, shit. Now I get it. Oh, now I get it. He's just, he's just stirring shit. He's been summoned back by his master. Because there's that one point during Dr. Fate's whole screen where it's like, he's jumping, his mind is jumping through time. And at the end, he's like, it has begun. And I was like, oh, shit, the crisis, crisis started. Yep, that's where that's where Psycho Pirate went. Psycho Pirate went back to his master.
01:06:15
Speaker
So that was pretty fucking dope. And just the whole bit of like, it was an interesting pull for the main villain, although I do think having watched it a second time, the seams are kind of on the plot, because I get that they want to do both like,
01:06:33
Speaker
the big evil supervillain Atlantean battle for Metropolis. And then the Nazis show up kind of as an afterthought, but we've been fighting Nazis for the first half of it. And I'm just like,
01:06:45
Speaker
DC has a stable of reprehensible Nazi characters. They could have liberally had throw down with the JSA. And it just feels a little weird. I understand it was cool when Aquaman went to the trench. Then when they mentioned the trench, my antenna as an Aquaman re-used our equivalent, because I'm like, oh shit, we're about to go Lovecraft, everybody. We're about to go deep one Lovecraft. And of course, the giant kaiju, the monsters attacking the city, very cool.
01:07:15
Speaker
But it's just like, it was weird how none of the Atlanteans were like, hey, has the king ever mentioned, like, fuck the surface world before? Because I've never really heard of it. I mean, we just kind of like nobody questioned it. They just went full Nazi mode and attacked the surface world with barely a flicker, like barely like they just kind of became cobra, for lack of a better word. And I'm just like, again, not a deal breaker, but I was just like, hmm,
01:07:43
Speaker
Okay, that's interesting choice. Yeah. I mean, I guess I, you know, after having watched the two Aquaman movies, I guess I can kind of understand it because, you know, if it's, if it's the whole thing, that the only one, the only thing stopping Aquaman from attacking, the only thing stopping Atlantis from attacking the surface world is Aquaman himself. So like, I guess, yeah, yeah. So I guess I could understand. That's, that's probably the way I explained it away in my headcount.
01:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not a deal breaker by any means. It was just one of those moments where like, I'm sitting there, I'm munching my popcorn. And I'm just like, Hmm, it's been a while since we've seen the Nazis. And I'm kind of here to watch superheroes just wreck Nazi shit. I mean, it's fun to watch them fight merpeople and monsters. But, you know, and then the bombers show up and we get that
01:08:25
Speaker
Oh, my God, we get the best, the best thing. Like, of course, of course, like when we meet Shakespeare and he explains that his like mom, Pa Kent died when he was three years old. So he grew up in the foster system. So he don't believe in nothing no more. He's very much kind of like I I'm not I just keep my head down and I don't get involved.
01:08:48
Speaker
Like, I just don't want to do it. And, you know, Diana raises the very salient point that everyone should know is that if you just let fascists be fascists, you're not really much better than they are, you know, because fascism exists to be punched in the face. Yes. Yeah. That was a fist pump moment when Diana said that.
01:09:08
Speaker
Yeah, you're no better than the Nazis. And it's clear that you see on Shakespeare's face, he's thinking about it. And it's very clear that Gilt is starting to work on him. So when he comes back in the 11th hour, I'm sitting there like, man, this fight's going pretty bad. I wonder if anybody's going to come in and save the day. I wonder if that's going to happen. And of course, yeah, he shows up. And it's not quite an homage to that
01:09:34
Speaker
to that issue of Justice Society, where Joe Staten draws that awesome shot of Superman just wrecking a Nazi plane, and the It's Superman logo beneath him. It's like, yes, yes, Superman, punch Nazis in their fucking turkey necks. Let's just fucking go. And he wrecks them. He wrecks those planes, and it's great. And you kind of see that he's not as assured as the Superman of Earth
01:10:00
Speaker
one for lack of a better term because, you know, he's doing the leaps, he's doing the jumps. He hasn't quite discovered that he can fly yet. Also, there's that line when they ask him like you're invulnerable and he's like, no, I'm just really tough or something along those lines. I'm thick skinned. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, you're a bud.
01:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, you are. So yeah, well, I think now I think I kind of answered my own question about why they didn't have Alan Scott in this, because if you're going to have this idea of like Superman being like this, this big pivotal figure who comes in, he's kind of got to be, you know, more powerful than everybody else. And if you've got Alan Scott in there, and you're dealing with Golden Age Superman, he's not as impressive.
01:10:40
Speaker
Yes, exactly. You've got the magic ring that can do almost anything. And unless those planes were made of wood, it's not gonna be all that much of a problem for all Alan Scott. That could also be why we didn't really see Dr. Fate participate actively in the Nazi-punching side of things.
01:10:59
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you don't get you don't have the all powerful, like, Lord of Order, and you certainly don't have the specter because the specter would have sold three seconds. Like, yeah, when you have the wrath of God incarnate, you know, you don't really.
01:11:14
Speaker
you know sweating for much so but yeah I get why they did it and it's a great here comes the cavalry moment like it's it's a fist pump moment absolutely and it's nice to like see and it's interesting to look at the design for the earth 2 superman who looks a little more pinched like a little more a little more his features are a little more won than um a little more withdrawn
01:11:37
Speaker
than the Superman of Earth one who's very bold and colorful and bright. And it's just like, and I love and you know, I haven't mentioned that, you know, Darren Criss does a great job of portraying both of them were like, were Barry asks, you know, Clark early on, like, Hey, what's the plan? Punch bad guy in the face, duck the beam. Everybody goes home happy.
01:11:56
Speaker
It's just like, just a great little like, he's very confident, you know, he's not a jerk, but he's, you know, he's, he's confident himself. Like he's been around the block a time or two, knows what kryptonite is. So it was interesting. Like there's a nice little dual bit of business and the two flashes have some great stuff too, where they each kind of teach each other some of their speed tricks.
01:12:16
Speaker
Or it's like- Yes, yeah, I love that. Yeah, Wally shows him how to use the- Berries. Or Barry, sorry. Barry shows him how to use the turbo spinning his hands really fast to help the playing get down. And Jay had never considered that before. You see him look at his hands and be like, holy shit, I can do that too. And there's the whole bit where Jay explains like, hey man, when I was starting out, I learned how to phase through walls and stuff. And Barry's like, you can do that? It's great. There's some fun bits of business between those two as well.
01:12:45
Speaker
Yeah, on contrast. Yeah. Well, and I want to talk like something about the Superman thing. First off, I love that they gave him the the more depowered Golden Age version of it. And, you know, like I said, I think that makes sense why they left some other characters off the off the roster. So all of that was really cool. I like that they went with like the the Roman style boots even. But oh, so cool. One thing I can't understand is you've got the Golden Age Superman here, right? You've got.
01:13:14
Speaker
Even though it wasn't from the comics, it was from the serials, but the thing that people most associate with the Golden Age Superman is that flesher symbol, right? With the yellow outline and the black background. Why would you not use that? It's the perfect opportunity to use that.
01:13:34
Speaker
I think the temptation was there. I think they tried to strike a balance between the modern day Superman looking and the Jerry Ord Way Earth 2 Superman logo. Like if you ever looked at some stills from All Star Squadron number 21, like there's that iconic like first page where Superman is on the cover and the Superman logo is not quite the Superman logo of the modern day.
01:14:00
Speaker
It's kind of got its own stylized vibe. And I think they kind of shot for that. Now, of course, in an ideal world where we ran things and everything was cool, absolutely, I would have him look like the Fleischer Superman, 110%, because that's a crisp look. But I don't know if like, I mean, again, the Fleischer Superman is kind of
01:14:22
Speaker
because you see a lot of those like box set DVD or like collections that are there. Well, yeah, but I mean, they also use the suit and they also used it in what is it? Yeah, Superman and Lois. Superman and Lois. Yeah, I know. I'm picking up what you put down. But yeah, I think that might have been a missed opportunity, but maybe they were just like, look, we kind of want to make it so they're more like.
01:14:42
Speaker
kind of similar I'm not sure I'm yeah I'm not we have to get like one of the animators like in here just be like right I mean personally I I definitely say it's a missed opportunity that was one thing that disappointed yeah because as soon as I figured out he was Superman I'm like oh he's gonna he's gonna put on it's gonna be the Golden Age Superman he's gonna have the flesher symbol on there and then when I looked at I'm like
01:15:05
Speaker
Oh, that's kind of a bummer. It's cool, but it doesn't quite pop the way you want it to pop. Right. I mean, it's and it's not. I mean, now we're getting into nitpicky territory here, right? Yeah, again, I want to stress this. This is a fun movie. Like I had, I liked it a bunch, but you know,
01:15:24
Speaker
Yes, command for his honest opinion. I'm gonna give you my honest opinion. And this is like, that's good. Could have been better. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. But I dig it. Um, well, so like, and here's a good question that I think this is a probably good place to kind of start wrapping things up a little bit. But yeah, the whole idea of
01:15:41
Speaker
You know, so I'd mentioned earlier on that, like how back when they'd done it originally in the, in the comics, when they kind of realized that, Oh, you know, shared continuity that Marvel's doing is pretty popular. We should probably do that too. And then they had, and I'm like, Oh, wait, we've got.
01:15:57
Speaker
Superman and Batman who are pretty different from their Golden Age versions. And then we've got, you know, two completely different versions of Flash and Green Lantern. And it's like, how are we going to square this circle? And they're like, Oh, one, one group is on Earth one, the other group is on Earth two. And that was the way they kind of, you know, solve that problem. But
01:16:14
Speaker
And then, you know, and then post-crisis came along and they said, oh, no, no, they all existed in the same universe and Superman was inspired by the justice society. Now, I don't know, and I'm of two minds of this, right? On the one hand, I do kind of like the idea of there having been like these World War II heroes, but on the other hand, I also really like the idea of Superman being the first actual superhero in the DC universe. Yeah, I mean, that's important.
01:16:44
Speaker
Right. So and I think what they did here was kind of, they kind of had their cake and ate it too, right? They had so they have this idea where, you know, flash is obviously inspired by Superman, right? That that's made very clear by, you know, his conversation with Iris, the beginning and all that. Oh, yeah. And
01:17:02
Speaker
And then we get into and at the end of the movie, right, he goes, he goes to see Superman again, he tells him he's like, you know, you know, he gives him this idea of starting a team. And it's this idea of like, you know, he was inspired by the the Just Society that he had on Earth, too. And that's why so in an indirect way, the Just Society did inspire the the heroes of the modern day. So it's a cool little way to do that. But where do you kind of stand on this?
01:17:27
Speaker
Well, getting back to your having your cake and eating it, too. I mean, after the crisis, they, you know, Roy Thomas, God bless him. God bless him. The man never saw an opportunity to try so continuity that he didn't like. He created a book called The Young All-Stars, which introduced, you know, like extensively, like there was Iron Monroe, who is essentially the golden age Superman as a younger man. Oh, OK. And he's the son of Hugo Danner from Philip Wiley's novel Gladiator.
01:17:57
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So that explains why he has the Golden Age Superman power set, essentially. So not necessarily saying that Siegel might have had a copy of Gladiator on his nightstand. But when you read that book, you're like, Oh, well, leave a leave, leave a nade of a mile. I mean, and, you know, and Doc Savage right down to the Fortress of Solitude. I mean,
01:18:16
Speaker
It's kind of hard to deny. Yeah, yeah. Look, look, all, you know, you know, all homages. Absolutely. Tips of the hat. Absolutely. And of course, there was Flying Fox, who was kind of like the Batman archetype, but mixed with like a, an Inuit shaman. So he had like sorceress powers, but he also had a very kind of Batman looking kind of cloak and mask. And of course, there was Fury, who would be later tied to Wonder Woman, who was essentially like
Superman: Golden Age vs Modern Interpretations
01:18:42
Speaker
the Wonder Woman of the piece. You know, I had her ties to the Greek Furies themselves and, you know, would turn into the Blood Avenger if she got too out of control. So there's a little bit of Hulk DNA in there as well. But I think that, yeah, yeah, it's just a matter of I like
01:18:57
Speaker
I like what this movie has done and I like how they kind of streamlined it and kind of like made it make a bit more sense. I'm of two minds. Like I like the idea of Superman being the first superhero because really like all comic book characters
01:19:13
Speaker
It don't really age. I mean, there's there's there's ways a clever writer can come up with a way like, you know, it's kind of like how when they brought Jay Garrick back in the comments and the flash. And I know I know a lot of people don't like that. I know this this comic is kind of controversial by a lot of comic fans, but Doomsday Clock. I thought what they did with Superman and that was pretty interesting.
01:19:33
Speaker
how they had all this, like this whole idea of like the DC universe is built around Superman. So every time Superman drifts too far and then like a new DC universe comes, is birthed into being. I thought that was a, that was a pretty cool way of really, yeah, it was a really cool way of really centering the DC universe around Superman, which has not really been the way in the.
01:19:54
Speaker
There's another guy. There's another guy who seems to take a lot of the thunder. Right. But yeah, I dig it. I dig it. Yeah, it's interesting to explore that element and like Superman has this focal point. So of course, Superman is kind of like
01:20:13
Speaker
He's the focal point of this team. He's gonna be the focal point of the league. And that's very interesting to explore. If it were me, if I might put my writer's cap on, like I think an amazing thing to kind of parallel that would be like the first golden age hero is Amazing Man.
01:20:29
Speaker
Like classic, amazing man. Like he has a kind of similar kind of like power set. And it would be very interesting for the first superhero of the 1930s to be a black man. That would be really kind of interesting to comment on. And he was a member of the All-Star Squadron. He was very cool. And he has a great design, that classic outfit.
01:20:48
Speaker
Drowned by Jerry Ordway, who that that that bold A on the center of his chest. Like, I always thought that that was cool. Like, I always thought that they kind of missed an opportunity to have him kind of like slot into the Superman role. And we would have made for some very interesting stories like makes me wonder if when when Earth, when the Earth Two series came along, you know, in the New 52 and they introduced Val Zod, I'm kind of wondering if they were influenced by by Amazing Man and then in that way.
01:21:14
Speaker
Yeah, man. Val Zod is an amazing character. It's a cool concept to just be like, yeah, maybe there's this scion of the House of El, or not necessarily House of El, but the House of Zod, that he's like, hey, man, I'm not a villain. I'm just here to help the same way. And he's just a very cool. And that outfit pops, man. It is. Yeah. Between him and Calvin Ellis, who?
01:21:43
Speaker
Whoo, those looks are so amazingly cool. Well, and that's something else I like that they did here in in this version, because if you're going to have an Earth 2 Superman and I think this and you know, I could be off base on this because I'm not very familiar with the Earth 2 stuff, but like what Earth 2 Superman ended up becoming by the time we get to like crisis, he seemed other than like the gray hair and all that. He didn't seem all that different from Earth 1 Superman.
01:22:10
Speaker
Not really, yeah. And so I really like what they did here, how they focused it more on like, this is the Golden Age iteration of him, right? He is not as powerful. He's much more rough around the edges. He's got a very different worldview because, you know, as Derek always said, you know, rest his soul, the true heroes, the DC Universe are Jonathan and Martha Kent. And because they're the ones who raise Clark up to become Superman. Without them, you don't get this version of Superman who is like this model of integrity and
01:22:40
Speaker
righteousness and justice. And so you see this Superman and again, you go back to the Golden Age stories, you know, Jonathan Martha Kent weren't even really there like in some those original origin was just that he's found by a passing motorist and they drop him off in an orphanage and that's it.
01:22:58
Speaker
Yeah. And even like the radio and like was it the radio serial? And again, I'm going just off with Anthony's on his podcast. But they he basically emerged like fully grown from the pot in that costume. Yeah, he's ready to go. Yeah.
01:23:13
Speaker
Which I think, I think one of the Power Girl iterations was just like, yeah, Power Girl came out of that pod fully grown, ready to rock, just like educated by the spaceship, ready to go. Yeah. Right. So I think they did a really cool thing here where they they had that differentiation and they showed that differentiation where and they honored that original origin by saying like, okay, yeah, he was adopted by these people named the Kent's but
01:23:37
Speaker
They died early on. So yeah, he does have their name, but he wasn't raised by them. So he's got a very different view of humanity than the Superman we know. And I thought that was a brilliant way of both honoring that original origin, but also to help differentiate him from the Earth-1 Superman.
01:23:54
Speaker
Absolutely, like I would love the chance to revisit this Superman, like maybe a couple of years down the line on this earth and just see him be the two-fisted socialist crusader of the original scene going to the Schuster comics. Like he's breaking down doors, he's taking on corrupt politicians and political fat cats. I mean, it would almost be like the rockabilly Superman of the Rags Morales Grant Morrison run, where it's just like, I just smell rats, man, rats with money and just like,
01:24:24
Speaker
He's just ready to kick some ass. Wait 10 more years until that character's in the public domain. I am gonna write that story. I'm gonna write the shit out of that story. You and me both, brother. I got one in the team. We are officially announcing now we are gonna team up on this thing.
01:24:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, man, we are gonna we are gonna do it to it. Like, I mean, we could do a whole multiverse of characters like hell. Yeah. Just essentially using the original Golden Age Superman as a springboard. Like, there's so many ways you could go about it. I mean, if if Alan Moore can get away with it in Supreme, I mean, come on now. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But with a clever enough writer, you can find all manner ways around loopholes is all I'm saying.
01:25:06
Speaker
Insert image of me wringing my hands here. I think that's a good note to close up on. Are there any other things you wanted to mention about Just Society? One more thing, and it's a stealth thing that I think I literally realized in media res as we were sitting here.
01:25:25
Speaker
part of that like Shakespeare I was like there's something about that that rang a faint gong in my brain and then it occurred to me that this was the writer and whoever the writer is I want to buy a mistake dinner because this is genius Kent Shakespeare from the five years later arc of Legion of Superheroes
01:25:46
Speaker
Like, it's a- I've never, I've got no- It's a clue. I've got no familiarity with Legion, so you have to keep depending. So, yeah, so five years later, like Superboy, like all that continuity has been dealt with, like there's a whole thing with Superboy. I could get into it with you, but we don't have time. I don't have enough like slide rules and graphs.
01:26:04
Speaker
But there is a character in the Legion books that resembles very strongly like the Golden Age, or not necessarily Golden Age, but like super boyish. And he's called Kent Shakespeare. And he has some similar powers. Like it's kind of like he might be a descendant of Clark and Lois.
01:26:29
Speaker
like he's got a little bit of super strength he's not but he's a supporting character in the book he's like a trainee that one of the legion five years later when everything's kind of shitty it's essentially their dark knight returns they come back and try to make right what once went wrong so yeah so he's a character there i was like and then when they mention it in the tent well it's like this is our reporter shakespeare and my brain didn't catch it the first time and then the second time i was watching i'm like son of a bitch
01:26:54
Speaker
That was literally the writer going, can you guess? Can you guess anybody who's like paying attention and might want to earn their little, not necessarily a Marvel no prize, but I just feel that that might've been, maybe it's a coincidence, take it with a grain of salt. No, I don't think so because again, this, this screenwriter, I don't know if it was the same one who did this one, but he had done like some of the other Tomorrow Over stuff.
01:27:17
Speaker
He was on Digging for Kryptonite and he was talking about, you know, he's definitely a legit fan. So that's very possible. I think they've definitely gone to people who know their stuff on this. Yeah. And one more thing where it's just like, like, I'm not sure because Jay Garrick doesn't look discernibly older than Barry, but he calls him son. And like back in my day where it's just like,
01:27:45
Speaker
You don't look that much older than Barry, bro. Yeah, I thought that was, I did clock that as well. I thought that was an interesting idea because it's like, I can understand if you're dealing with like the older Jay Kieran, but it did seem a little out of place. I guess maybe they just wanted to kind of acknowledge that relationship maybe. Maybe they originally wanted to put the gray in his temples and then they just were just like, nah, let's not overcomplicate this. They're both basically kind of the same age, but like maybe it's just a matter of experience. Like Jay debuted,
01:28:15
Speaker
I think in 1941? So he's got about two or three years of experience as opposed to Barry who seems very green. Like he doesn't even realize he can vibrate through molecules. But yeah, let me get apart from that. These are the fun kind of knits that I like to pick.
01:28:31
Speaker
where I'm just like, oh, let me just turn this over like a Rubik's Cube and just have some fun with it. Where it's like, come up with my own little reasons for why things are the way they are. And, you know, at the end of the day, this is a fun movie. Get yourself a big bowl of popcorn and your beverage of choice and just kick back and watch it. Because it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Like, and you have a good time. You get to see a lot of cool things like the Flash throw a bunch of grenades and a crab monster's mouth and it explodes in a gout of blood. Like,
01:28:57
Speaker
You'll see some crazy stuff that you were not expecting. And people get got in this movie. Like there's some real, there's some real pathos and some real deaths here. Like we established Hawkman, Hawkman reincarnates. And then yeah, he, spoiler alert, he gets got.
01:29:14
Speaker
And then his last words are Shaira. And I was like, oh my God, you're not gonna make me ugly cry over fucking all men, are you? That was good, man. That was some good stuff. And the Steve Trevor bit, like, tomorrow's not guaranteed, the nice message at the end, tomorrow's not guaranteed, live today and be present today. So I thought that was a really sweet message. And when Diana gives Barry the ring, like, I was like, oh, my heart, my feelings, oh boy, yeah.
01:29:42
Speaker
Very good stuff. Now, the last thing I wanted to say about this and just kind of like about the tomorrow verse in general and how they had decided to go with the how, you know, they've had so like, how many movies have we had in this series so far? We've had, I'm bringing up the list here.
01:29:59
Speaker
Long Halloween is two parts, so does that count as one? Right, but I'm counting it as one. So we've had Man of Tomorrow, Just Society, World War II, Long Halloween, Green Lantern, Bivou and My Power, Legion of Superheroes, Justice League, Warworld. So we get, you know, that's one, two, three, four, five, six movies, and then we jump right into Crisis on Infinite Earths.
01:30:20
Speaker
Yeah, again. Yeah. And, you know, and I think this from what I've seen of the tomorrow verse, I think it's definitely an improvement over the the the DCAU or whatever they're calling that new animated, whatever they're calling that that previous one where they use like a new 52 design. Yeah.
01:30:39
Speaker
I mean, it was there were some good movies, especially as it got on. I thought Death of Superman was very good. That was a banger. Yeah, that was actually a banger. I will I will concede the designs. And Jerry O'Connell makes for a really great. Yes. And I liked I really liked I like Saw to Batman, too. I thought that was a fun movie, too.
01:30:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Son of Batman is really good. I mean, it has one of my I think it's that one that has one of my favorite lines. I guess they're nudges. And I'm just like, oh, my God, Dick. No, no, no, Dick. Don't do that. But one of the things, but yeah, one of the things about this.
01:31:18
Speaker
tomorrow, and I don't know about you, but I really kind of miss when they would do these animated adaptations of these classic comic book stories, but they weren't in some sort of shared continuity, like, you know, like The Dark Knight Returns, which we talked about before. Right. Yeah. And Red Sun, another one. The Superman Batman movies. You know, all those new frontier as well. You know, excellent example.
Tomorrowverse and Crisis Adaptation Speculation
01:31:44
Speaker
and all-star superman 2 and all these different movies they've done where they had these that were completely set outside and now they decide you know i think we're just gonna kind of do a shared continuity and animation and then we're gonna work these stories into these universes and i feel like it's kind of a missed opportunity because i mean
01:32:02
Speaker
We're already getting the shared universe stuff in live action. We had it in two different places in the movies and in the TV show. We got crisis work through that too. I have not seen this new crisis yet or part one of it. I'm not saying I'm not going to see it. I'm not an idiot. I'm going to see it obviously. Harry, I think we are obligated to see it at this point. We activated a trap card.
01:32:29
Speaker
And I think they're like, oh, well, I guess we're doing this now. Guess we're doing this. There's a lot of guns hung on the wall in this movie. And I'm like, well, I guess we got us. So we might need to jump to crisis and then maybe make a point of like visiting, maybe beware my power. If you haven't done it already, you might have done it. No, I haven't done that one yet. No, the only ones of these I've done so far
01:32:49
Speaker
The only ones of these I've done is just this and Long Halloween. So there's still plenty to cover. But yeah, I was, I don't know, I feel like it's first off, I feel like it is too soon to do crisis in this universe. And then also, I just feel like, you know, I'd much rather see crisis on Infinite Earths like doing an adaptation of the actual crisis series instead.
01:33:15
Speaker
I don't know. How do you feel about that? I mean, I've seen some clips of this, of the crisis movie. So I'm not completely like, but I think they're trying in their way. Like they've reintroduced this. And I think that they've done kind of a fun thing with the animated movies in the tomorrow verse where
01:33:34
Speaker
Yes, there are through lines that connect the movies, but by and large, you could watch Man of Tomorrow or even this one, and not necessarily have to move forward. They're not as intricately tied together as the previous DCAU New 52 kind of stuff, where this leads into that, leads into that. You can still compartmentalize, and if you just want to cherry pick which movies you like the best, that's absolutely fine. I think what's interesting about Crisis and
01:34:03
Speaker
This may brush up against spoiler territory. So I might need to put a little caveat in here. If you wanna go- So yeah, if anyone doesn't wanna hear any spoilers, because that movie came out fairly recently, just skip ahead about five minutes or so. About two to five minutes, absolutely. So I'm just gonna spoil a little thing for you. And it's gonna be just, not necessarily like, I've only seen a couple of clips, like I said.
01:34:29
Speaker
But there is a sequence where Barry Allen, the Barry from this movie, you know, he kicks off the events of Crisis. And at one point he meets this homeless British man.
01:34:40
Speaker
who is pretty naturally connected to all these things. And it's John Constantine from the DCAU animated movies. Matt Ryan? Matt Ryan, yeah. So he's filling the Harbinger, or not necessarily the Pariah role. Like the Spectre comes to him at the end of the DCAU, the previous version, and it's just like, hey man, you fucked up.
01:35:04
Speaker
And now the thing is you get to live, you get to watch this whole shit show over and over and over again, how it all ends in fire and you're going to live. And like he teams up with Barry and essentially I think sets Barry on the path to discovering how to
01:35:24
Speaker
Because this is Crisis on Infinite Earth's part one. So they're going to end it on a finger. I don't know. Yeah, it's going to be three parts. Yeah, it's going to be a three parter, much like the other one. So I think that don't expect everything to be a one to one of previous iterations of the story that we've seen. So I'm willing to like.
01:35:43
Speaker
I'm willing to, on one level, I would be, you know, if I was coming in cold, I'd be like, Oh man, this is gonna suck. Like how many times we got to reboot this goddamn universe? Like just, just pick a continuity and stick with it. That's all I ask. Or just don't do a continuity at all.
01:35:58
Speaker
don't do a conduit at all. Like all these things are just, you know, like comics just don't need to necessarily have to all interlock all at the same time. You can just be like, yeah, it's busy over in a couple other things. It just be like read the latest Superman issues. But I think that this is going to be interesting. I think that these movies have been self-contained enough that you can take or leave it. And I think what they're going to do with Crisis might not be what we expect. It might not be the reboot that we might be thinking of.
01:36:22
Speaker
So it might be like, I don't know if you're a gamer at all, but you know, Final Fantasy seven remake, right? Where you get into it. Yeah. And it's a fun game and everything. And then then and you're like, OK, yeah, but I'm just basically playing like, you know, the first is familiar. Yeah. The first chapter of the of the game. And they're going to just remake the whole thing. It's going to be all the same beats with, you know, some improved graphics, some, you know, some extra story beats here and there. But then you get to the end of that first part. It's like, holy shit. You just threw a massive curveball.
01:36:52
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I think that like, I think that, and this could be genius, if I am right and get your tinfoil hats out, everybody, I could be wrong, you know, just take it with a grain of salt. But I think they might be playing on fan expectation. I think they might be playing around with the idea of like, because there's this one clip where like,
01:37:14
Speaker
You know, it's the satellite scene from Crisis on Infinite Earth, where all the heroes are meeting all the other heroes. And again, Perry, I swear to God, if you just tell me to shut up, I won't spoil anything. But there's this great moment. It's just because I'm just trying to whet your appetite. I'm trying to get you intrigued, Perry, so you can watch this movie together. So there's a scene where the tomorrow-verse Batman is hanging around on the satellite, and he hears a voice. It's like, oh, Bruce, I can't believe it's you. He turns around. It's the adult Robin.
01:37:43
Speaker
Oh. From Earth 2. And it's like, I'm Dick Grayson. You adopted me and you trained me as your ward and together we helped a lot of people. And Batman just takes it for a beat and goes, that sounds incredibly irresponsible.
01:38:01
Speaker
Oh, it's amazing. I'm just like, and Jensen Ackles with just perfect like, just almost con-roying like levels of dry. It's just like, I think that would be extremely irresponsible. And he's just like, it's an amazing line and I won't spoil anything else. There's a lot of great cameos. There's a lot of like, from the clips I saw, there's a lot of like beautiful little bits of candy. And I think it would be fun to like, to watch that and kind of like,
01:38:28
Speaker
I mean, if the demand is there, everybody, we could revisit Crisis on Infinite Earths as it stood, as a comic, and then watch this and just kind of be like, okay, well, here's these beats and here's that beat, and very interesting stuff. I think it'll be fun. I think they're playing our expectations against us, and I think that'll be neat to see.
01:38:49
Speaker
when they pull the rug out from under people who are longtime fans was like, I know where this is going. And then you don't. So that sounds interesting. Yeah, that I'm very intrigued now. Like, yeah, I'm much more intrigued than I was before, because I was originally thinking like, OK, we're just going to get like another crisis thing. And it's just going to be, you know, the tomorrow versus version of crisis where you got the CW version of crisis. But this sounds like something that's that's different. That's a little bit more unique. And so, yeah, I'm I'm I'm intrigued, especially because that
01:39:19
Speaker
this is establishing like a sort of continuity between these different universe. Cause the, you know, the new 52 version one that started after the flash point paradox, which came after justice league doom. So there is that whole aspect of it too. So yeah, this thing has been like continuing on for a good minute now.
01:39:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I think calling back to your thing where it's just like you want to open the door to tell all these self contained kind of stories. I think this is it. I think this is their way of being like, yeah, worlds lived worlds died, but the worlds were reborn. And now we have like infinite possibilities to go wherever we want. And I think that's going to be pretty frickin cool.
01:40:00
Speaker
Like so now last question since we and this guys I promise it'll be the last thing and then we'll close out. We're heading towards the door, everybody. We're heading towards the door. Don't worry about it. We're in the lobby of the theater right now. We're just doing that thing where you talk and they're turning off the lights. Yes. Now I'm going to put on even I'm going to wrap some even even more tin foil around my head or tin foil. So hell yeah.
01:40:21
Speaker
We've got a box of it in bulk over here, so don't worry about it. So, you know, when they announced that they are going to be doing crisis, they also announced they're going to be doing an animated adaptation of Watchmen. Do you think we might be leading into a world where they do a Doomsday Clock movie?
01:40:44
Speaker
Now, Perry, this is where you and I very gently and with all the love in the world for you must part ways because I do not particularly care for Doomsday Clock. Mary Marvel should not have to look at Dr. Manhattan's junk. That's just not something that I wanted to see happen. But I,
01:41:11
Speaker
I would be very surprised if that happened. I mean, might they try to do something with Watchmen? Maybe? But I don't know. That book is very charged. And like really, I just think it's just kind of, it's had its moment. And I mean, maybe they could do something with like the Minutemen stuff by Cook. I mean, that I would watch the shit out of.
01:41:37
Speaker
But I don't know. Like, I mean, I'm not saying it's completely out of the realm of possibility. I would be gobsmacked if it happened. Like, you would knock me over with a feather.
01:41:46
Speaker
I would be surprised if they actually did it, but I think that there is. I mean, I think the timing is the timing is the timing is interesting. That's all I'm saying. The timing is interesting. As we get closer and closer to like Superman coming on the copyright and also the like the the hundredth anniversary of Superman.
01:42:07
Speaker
Um, I'm not saying no. But I would be extremely surprised. I mean, I think they would do some like, there's so many other stories that you can, you can tell you could go off in all manner of directions. I mean, right.
01:42:23
Speaker
I mean, I don't know what you would do next. Like you essentially, for lack of a better term, you create hyper time and then you just, you just go nuts. Like there's so many directions you could go. I mean, I don't know, man. Like if I was, if it were me and I was like, let's do a bunch of done in ones. I mean, let's just, let's just go off the deep end. Like, you know, let's do, let's do Superman speeding bullets. Let's do. Oh, I would love to see Superman speeding bullets.
01:42:51
Speaker
Yeah, except without the cop-out ending. Yes, absolutely. I'm sorry. With all the love and respect for the creative team of Superman Speeding Bullets, that last page is a cop-out, and you know it. You know it. You know it. No. I also don't like the whole idea of Lex Luthor becoming the Joker. I think now you're taking it. You're stretching it. You're stretching it now.
01:43:10
Speaker
Like the Joker is the Joker, but in this iteration, like the Joker would team up with Lex Luthor. I could see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of like the original plan for that cursed movie that you talked about where like they were ostensibly both supposed to have both characters, but then the writers just merged them into one and Jesse Eisenberg had to play both of them, like almost as if he had dissociative identity disorder. And it's like. Right.
01:43:35
Speaker
I will always, guys, we're getting up. We're at the door. We're at the door. I swear to God, but I don't get a lot of chances to talk with my man over here. So just give me a second. I will always be mad over like Superman, like his mom being threatened and like,
01:43:52
Speaker
Luther holding a cell phone. Like my internal head cannon is like, hey Lex, do you know what cellular waves look like? Because I do. And then just boom, he's gone. And he rescues his mom in like three seconds, brings her back and is like, Ma, you just wait here for a minute. I'm just gonna take the nice man to jail. And just like, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Future Discussions and Podcast Promotion
01:44:17
Speaker
Oh Lord.
01:44:19
Speaker
but we could do a whole, like, if we ever want to do an Irish wake for the Zack Snyderverse now that it's- Well, we're actually doing, I'm actually, I'm actually going to be doing a DCEU ranking episode very soon. So I've already got someone booked on the hat. Oh, man. Like, if you need, if you need, if you need a pinch hitter, I hope that person's not available. Well, one of the reasons I chose this guy specifically is because he's got very different views on the Snyder stuff for me. Oh, wow. Okay. Very interesting conversation.
01:44:44
Speaker
You know, free market of ideas. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So because I've heard of someone who has the same views of me. It's just like, okay, our rankings are bad. And that's not as interesting. And really, it's just it's just dragging something that people like for filth. I mean, look, there's fans of those movies out there. My brother's one of them. And I'm never going to yuck his yum. Like if you have fun with those movies, have fun with those movies, man. Absolutely. It's like now that we've gotten the Manhattan movie of all time. Yeah. And now that we've gotten the
01:45:12
Speaker
the, while we're getting the DCU stuff, I can, I can disassociate myself from it and I can look, I can, and I did that when I, when I prepare for the rankings. So I think based on what people have heard me say about these movies in the past, I think they'll be surprised by my, by my choices and, and these. Exactly. Yeah.
01:45:27
Speaker
the cold light of day when you come back to it. I mean, there's stuff in those movies that I actually do quite like. I mean, Russell Crowe as Jor-El sound is amazing. Like, I like the idea of him as Jor-El. He's a badass action hero, but they always do Lara Dirty. Like, she's a test pilot, dude. She's a test pilot. She's a badass. That issue, that one issue of, like, Grant Moore's Arag Morales
01:45:48
Speaker
like all like Superman where like the House of El is being stormed by Zod and his cronies and Lara grabs like a fucking Kryptonian shotgun and is ready to wreck shit like yes she's not just gonna swoon and sigh and die like yeah like it makes me so mad
01:46:06
Speaker
I mean, I can't fall silent for that though because everybody yeah, everybody does that Laura always gets done dirty like yeah hashtag Laura done dirty, but you know But yeah, but it's you know It's it would be interesting to revisit them now Ryan has always suggested that I watch the director's cut of Batman v Superman and you know I will say even like cuz I tried to I tried watching these again and I will say that
01:46:33
Speaker
And I said this back when, you know, we did the episode on Batman V Superman because Derek and I, we watched the director's cut when we when we did that. OK. And it is even if you disassociate it from the characters themselves, even note even the fact that it is a more coherent movie than the theatrical cut.
01:46:53
Speaker
There's still plot holes that you could drive a dump truck through. I mean, to be fair, yes. I mean, there's a lot of stuff like you have the one person who's vulnerable to kryptonite use the weapon to kill the monster that is vulnerable to kryptonite. And look, guys. And that's not even the biggest plot hole in the movie. Look, these people want to go home, Perry. They want to go home.
01:47:17
Speaker
Let's just, we gotta bring this in for a landing. Because we will be here all night. So we will wish the good people adieu. Okay, well before we wish them good night, why don't you tell them where they can find you?
01:47:32
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. You can find me all over the place. I am on Blue Sky now as Stacey HD. That's my new haven for social media. I still dip into the bad website every once in a while, the dark site to post links to the fanboy power hour and just kind of check up on things. But I'm just, my flag has transferred to Blue Sky and I'm having a much better time over there. You can always
01:47:57
Speaker
reach me. My joke is that, you know, all, you know, everybody's welcome. The vibe is chill. There's Fresca in the fridge. Don't worry about it. And you can also find me, you know, through the Fanboy Power Hour podcast, obviously. And yeah, just, you know, watch the space. I'll be posting some, hopefully, you know, I'm trying to put some feelers out to get some fiction published. So we'll see how that goes. I've got a superhero concept that I'm working on on my own. So we will see how that develops. So watch the space.
01:48:25
Speaker
Very cool. Okay. All right. So that does it for us as well. And you'll find links to say see stuff in the in the show notes as always. And as for us, we are superhero cinephiles.com and super cinema pod on on social media, which these days we the the Twitter page is still there, but I've locked it down. And so it's it's not being used anymore. You go there, you'll just see the picture and you'll see a big old lock on it. So it's not
01:48:48
Speaker
It's not the relic of a former era. Exactly. Yeah, just we're just we're keeping the paint. We're hanging on the page just to avoid anyone squatting on it or anything like that. So it's the way it's the Robin costume in the glass. It's just it's there to be observed. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Until they resurrect Jason Todd. Definitely. All right. But anyway, so we are a super cinema pod on threads and blue sky and Instagram. And that does it for us. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
01:49:20
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Superhero Cinephiles is produced by me, Percival Constantine, with the support of Zencaster. The show is created by myself and the late, great Derek Ferguson, our host, Emeritus. Visit us on the web at SuperheroCinephiles.com to listen to past episodes or find out how you can be a guest yourself. Support the show by visiting our advertiser links or click the Buy Me a Coffee link on the website to make a one-time donation. You can also support us by visiting Crowdfunder.com slash ParagonsComic. That's Crowdfunder with no E,
01:49:48
Speaker
dot com slash paragons comic and help support my superhero comic book paragons of earth we are super cinema pod on both instagram and blue sky so please be sure to follow us we'd also appreciate if you could rate and review the show on apple podcasts and share us with your friends
01:50:23
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.