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The Punisher (1989)
237 Plays7 months ago
Fellow podcaster Anthony Desiato returns to the show to discuss another Punisher film. This time, we examine the first attempt to bring the Punisher to theaters, the infamous 1989 film starring Dolph Lundgren as Frank Castle. But contrary to its awful reputation (and despite some generic 80s action film clichés), it's not half-bad.
Listen to Anthony's podcasts and check out his documentaries by visiting Flat Squirrel Productions.
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
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Transcript
Ethics of Vigilantism
00:00:14
Speaker
Frank. How you been? Is he? I know. I know you have. I'm in charge of the body count. What the hell happened, Frank? Frank is dead.
00:00:45
Speaker
All right. Oh, that's it. So you, uh, decided everybody else had to be dead too, is that it? No. If you're guilty, you're dead. Courts decide who's guilty. The cops. We're here by swear to uphold the law. Remember?
00:01:18
Speaker
I've been looking for you for five years, man. Why the hell didn't you come to me for help? I didn't need your help. You're sick. You know that, Joseph. My man. What the fuck do you call 125 murders in five years? Work in progress.
00:01:46
Speaker
Welcome to the superhero cinephiles
Guest Introduction
00:01:48
Speaker
podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And joining me today, since I've been poaching a lot of his guests lately and I haven't had him on in a while, I thought it'd be good to have him back on. And that's Anthony Desiotto. How are you doing today, buddy? Now I'm doing well. Thank you for having me back. How's it going?
00:02:03
Speaker
Doing good. It has been a while since we've had you on. I think the last time was when we had you on to talk about the secret identities episode. We're doing a topic on that. Since it's been a minute, why don't you remind people about who you are? Sure. I host a couple of podcasts. One of them is Digging for Crip Night, Superman fan journey, new episodes every Tuesday.
00:02:25
Speaker
And we mine the vast Superman mythology across time and media. So that shows out every week. And then not too long from now, we'll be resuming another exciting episode in the adventures of Superman, which is an episode by episode rewatch podcast of the classic George Reeves adventures of Superman television series. So those are the two main shows available wherever you get podcasts. So any Superman fans out there or maybe just DC fans in general, kind of curious about Superman. I hope that people will check them out.
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah, well, great shows all around. And like I said, we have been poaching a lot of your wonderful guests lately. We've had Justin on most recently, we had Scott and Ralph on fairly recently as well. And it's been a lot of fun. You've got a great eye for guests to bring on in your shows.
00:03:13
Speaker
No, I appreciate that. And obviously you've been a guest as well. So include yourself in that. And no, it's great. I'm glad that everyone's been able to connect. And honestly, I've, I've gotten some of my guests from other podcasters. So it's, you know, it's nice that we can kind of pay it forward and, and all kind of tap into this network of people who are passionate and articulate about the stuff that we talk about. So it's, it's really a wonderful thing. And so I'm glad that you've had those folks on us. It's been really cool.
00:03:38
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun to connect with different people. And, you know, it's it one of the reasons, you know, I kind of like the idea of switching to the guest format after we after we lost Eric was that it's, it kind of gives me that
Podcast Format Evolution
00:03:53
Speaker
chance to do back what I used to do back when I had a local comic shop, which I don't have access to now here in Japan, is being able to talk one-on-one with other fans about this kind of stuff. And I didn't realize until I started doing that how much I missed that aspect of fandom.
00:04:11
Speaker
No, absolutely. I lost my local comic shop. It closed almost a decade ago. And what I found over these past few years is that doing all of this podcasting with a different guest each week really has helped kind of fill that void. And I love being able to connect with different people.
00:04:28
Speaker
You know, we kind of have our stable of guests and we rotate, you know, through, but it's a, you know, even now, after all these years of doing the podcast, we still bring in new people every now and then. And it's always cool just to get those other perspectives. But no, I mean, I totally identify with what you're saying. It's, it's such a fun part of all of this because we all see everything a little bit differently and just to get those different perspectives.
00:04:48
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it's, it's so much better to just sit down and talk about it as opposed to, um, and I had said this when we had Justin on where it's like, yo, social media, it's both a good thing because I wouldn't have met you guys if not for it in the first place. But at the same time, you know, it's just like, you know, it just, it just devolved so quickly when you have those discussions on there.
Zack Snyder & Ted Lasso
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, really having these long form one on one chats. It's it's such a, you know, everyone's so dialed in and it's this is just what we're focusing on. And we can really dig into all of these things that we're talking about. And yeah, again, social media is great and it has its its its purpose. But yeah, nothing quite like those those in-depth conversations. So I hear you.
00:05:34
Speaker
Yeah. So before we jump into the movie for today, what have you been interested in lately? Anything outside of podcasting, stuff that you're doing for your podcast that has been kind of catching your eye?
00:05:47
Speaker
Oh, sure. So let's see. Well, you recently had Justin on. You said, I know you guys ranked the DCEU movies. So I thought I was done with the DCEU. And as far as the DCEU as a whole, I am. I said what I needed to say about that cinematic universe when we ranked the episodes on Digging for Kryptonite. But I found that I had. Also great episode. Thank you. It was a lot of fun to do and a relatively late in the game decision to do that episode. But I just.
00:06:15
Speaker
I had this issue and I was like, you know, I think that'd be a fun way to kick off the year and people seem to like it. And it was, we had fun, but I realized I still had a bit more to say about the three Snyder movies. So that's actually what we're going to do. A little run of episodes on, uh, not too long from now, or maybe it's already happened depending on when this airs, but that's what's kind of on the brain right now. So yeah, I'm excited to get into that. And on the non comics or podcasts front, my wife and I finally.
00:06:40
Speaker
after all this time got into Ted lasso on apple plus, which has been phenomenal. And we're almost done with the finals, what seems to be the final season, but it's been an absolute blast. It's one of those shows where everyone says it's great and you go into it and it's like, how good could it possibly be? And I was like, Oh no, it actually is. It actually is that good. Have you, have you watched?
00:06:58
Speaker
I have not yet, but it's funny because when you were talking about when you did your DC ranking, you were doing the Ted Lasso Superman. I think it was the DC ranking one or it was Superman Legacy, whatever the one. Yeah, the legacy. But you were doing that. That was it. Yeah. And you were doing the the Superman Ted Lasso comparison. And it was funny because way back on when we covered Man of Steel on this show with Adam Lance Garcia, he had the exact same comparison. He's just like, he's like, you know, yeah, Superman should be like this Ted Lasso type of figure.
00:07:26
Speaker
Nice. I'm glad I'm not alone. Yeah. I just, I couldn't shake that feeling as I was watching the show and then thinking about the upcoming Superman legacy movie. It's like, that's, that's what we kind of want. Just this unrelenting optimistic force who changes the people around him over the course of the story. So well, we'll see. Time will tell. Yeah. And will we be switched into a very different kind of movie once we get into that, um, for my part though, what I've been into lately is, um,
Geoff Johns' Justice Society
00:07:53
Speaker
you've been talking, it's actually kind of a, you're the impetus for this, because you've talked about it so much, the Jeff Johns, just society stuff. So a few months back, I think it was like DC's, their year end sale, they had them like all the, the collections very cheap. So I picked them up and I'm, I'm almost finished with the the first collection. And it's been really enjoyable. Like I was kind of,
00:08:15
Speaker
Not sure what to expect from it because I was never really a Golden Age fan. I don't really outside of what I've seen in other stuff. I don't really know anything about any of these characters other than like, you know, Alan Scott and Jay Garrick. But but it's been it's been it's been a fun read so far. Oh, nice. So are these the omnibus editions of that JSA series or are they different? Different. I think it's I think it's the omnibus is like it's like the JSA by Jeff Johns. Gotcha. Something like that.
00:08:43
Speaker
yeah so those are those are pretty heft no that's awesome and I'm glad I'm glad that they're working for you despite not having a background with the characters I'm not surprised because I didn't have a background with the characters when I started and I was reading it as it was coming out in the late 90s early 2000s but still same thing it's like I only knew
00:09:00
Speaker
really the broadest of strokes when it came to the Golden Age characters, what little I had seen in the other DC books in the mid to late 90s because they really weren't getting much play. So I really didn't know a ton. That series, that JSA series by Johns and Goyer, that really was my introduction and my education with all of those characters. So I'm so glad you got it. That's awesome.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah, and it's cool. It's very accessible, too. That's one of the great things about it, where it is so steeped in this history and stuff like that, but it doesn't hold your hand, but at the same time, it doesn't make you feel lost when you're reading it. So it's been really good to jump in. There's a few things. When extant pops up, I'm just like, wait, who is this guy? And I quickly did a Wikipedia skim. I'm like, oh, OK, I'm good. I'm up to date now. Yes.
00:09:51
Speaker
Um, but anyway, so today we are talking about a very different kind of movie and, uh, we are going to be talking about the 19.
1989 Punisher Film Discussion
00:09:58
Speaker
So 1989, there was a groundbreaking film for superhero movies that, you know, completely changed the game and.
00:10:07
Speaker
And it was not the one we're talking about today. It was not the jet-ground-baking one, right? This was the 1989 Punisher film, which was released theatrically in a lot of countries, but surprisingly not in America. In America, it went straight to video. And it's been kind of infamous in fan circles for a while because, you know, we've got Dolph Lundgren playing the Punisher in this, and it is
00:10:32
Speaker
probably most famous for the fact that he does not wear the famous skull shirt in the movie. And so that's what we're going to be talking about today. And I got this idea because you came on a while back to talk about the 2004 version with Tom Jane. And then you were on another podcast. I can't remember the name of it, but you talked about the Punisher Warzone movie. And I remember listening to that one and you saying there that you hadn't seen the 89 one, but you were kind of interested in completing the set. And I'm just like,
00:11:03
Speaker
You know what, I should have him on at some point to talk about the 89-1 that, and we should dive into it. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's this weird thing. Again, I do all this Superman podcasting. Superman's my favorite character. DC is my favorite comics universe.
00:11:17
Speaker
Yet, I did read that entire Garth Ennis Max Punisher series back in the day. I have fond memories of it. And yes, now I've done, this is the third podcast talking about Punisher movies, so there's this little side pocket in my fandom for Punisher.
00:11:34
Speaker
This movie had been a gap. Like you said, it did your show on the Tom Jane movie. And then the other podcast was Round Two with Darren Kirsch. And we did Warzone. And I had seen both of those movies before, but I hadn't revisited them in a long time. Hadn't watched them together. So that was kind of interesting. But this, yeah, had been this gap. So I appreciate the invite. It gave me the motivation to finally watch the Dolph Lundgren movie.
00:11:58
Speaker
I gotta say, I don't know how much of a compliment this ultimately is, but like he says, become kind of infamous. I went in with the lowest expectations you could possibly have, and I was like, hey, you know.
00:12:10
Speaker
They get you in, they get you out. Without the credits, it's like 85 minutes. He's full on Punisher in this. And for what it is and for the time period, I don't know. It was an entertaining watch. Yeah, I had the same reaction. I had seen this years ago and I had found it. It was like, this is like back in the early 2000s, it was like $3 at a huge DVD store or something like that.
00:12:36
Speaker
buddy of mine at the time, Logan Trent, he commented on it. He's like, he's like, this is like the worst movie ever made.
00:12:41
Speaker
And as soon as he saw the DVD, he's like, oh, tell me there's a director's commentary on it. And he flipped around the back, saw no director's commentary, got very disappointed, and put it back. And so I'm like, you know what? I'm going to try it. I'm going to watch it. And I watched it when I first bought it all those years ago, and I hated it the first time I watched it. But going back and rewatching it now, yeah, I mean, there's obviously flaws. It definitely shows its budget in places.
00:13:08
Speaker
And obviously, you're gonna be missing the skull head. I think it also, it veers a little bit at times into 80s action movie cliches, but all that aside, it's much better than I think people give it credit for. Yeah, I think that that's probably fair to say. I mean, it's funny, because I'm trying to think, have I ever even really come across people talking about it?
00:13:31
Speaker
maybe here and there over the years, but it's not something that you often find part of the conversation. I love that you're doing that you're even doing this episode. And yeah, it's definitely a product of its time. Absolutely. The limitations of its of its budget are evident.
00:13:48
Speaker
It's a little tough to buy Dolph Lundgren as this kind of all-American type guy, though on the flip side, he definitely has that presence and that physicality that you would want. And yes, as you've been saying, and as you're sitting there with your Punisher skull shirt on, it's like a baffling choice not to have that present. I know I guess it's on the blade. You do see it there, but it doesn't wear it, and it's such an iconic part of the look.
00:14:15
Speaker
That being said that doesn't take me out of it so much, but it is kind of an unusual choice But yeah, I think and I don't know for anyone listening to this, you know What we're saying might might make sense or might not but I feel like it's just the mindset going in I think that's the key thing right for anyone listening to us if you've never watched the movie and if this prompts you to watch it I think just go in with with very realistic expectations about what this movie is and what it is And I think if you do that
00:14:41
Speaker
there's a way to have a good time with this film. And I guess, I just kind of, what I've, I just found it interesting because it's a bit of a throwback. It's very different than the kind of comic book movies we've grown accustomed to. So just kind of as that curiosity, a little bit of a relic, it was fascinating from that perspective. And you know, I could be wrong, but I was, I was thinking about it last night because I, as far as I can tell at least, this seems to be the first R rated superhero movie as well.
R-Rated Superhero Milestone
00:15:10
Speaker
Oh, interesting. So, yeah. So, like, I mean, because I was looking because when Deadpool came out, everybody was like, oh, it's the first R rated superhero movie. And then me, I'm just like, no, it's not. We had, you know, we had Blade, we had The Crow, we had Darkman. And for a while I was thinking, oh, it's Darkman probably is the first one. And then I'm like, oh, wait, no, I forgot that this one came out a year before Darkman and it was rated R.
00:15:34
Speaker
And yeah, it was an interesting relic to visit. And one of the things I'll say right from the start, the movie does not give you the best impression in the opening credits. It's almost like
00:15:49
Speaker
It's like a something you'd expect from like a Super Nintendo video game or something like you've got these still images of these criminals. And then you've got footage of Dolph Lundgren swinging his gun around and shooting him. And then the image shatters. And and they and it's not new footage of Lundgren either. They reuse that the footage from the big casino scene, too. Right, right.
00:16:14
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's interesting the way it chooses to kind of set the scene and pull you in. I guess just in terms of overall impressions and big picture takeaways, and I don't want to jump the gun and dive too far in, but there were a couple of things where later in the movie he has to work with the mafia boss who had ordered the hit on him that ultimately took the lives of his family. He has to work with him to save that guy's son.
00:16:41
Speaker
And there are also a couple of points early in the movie and then at the very end of the movie where Castle is praying. He's having a conversation with God about punishment and justice and what he's doing and the right path and all that.
00:16:55
Speaker
And I feel like those are two instances having to work with the man who's responsible for his family's deaths and these conversations with God. It feels like there's some interesting territory that they're wading into a little bit, but I don't think the movie either.
00:17:11
Speaker
is interested enough in fully pursuing it or is equipped to fully pursue it. But there's some interesting angles. And I was like, oh, there's a more interesting movie here. But again, I don't think this this film was built to really get into that. But there were just those couple of things I was like, oh, that's kind of intriguing.
00:17:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, as much as I love, you know, Tom Jane's performance in that 2004 movie, like we discussed about way back, it's the story itself, you know, it, it's an extended origin story, basically, it's not, it doesn't feel like, you know, you're getting into a regular Punisher story,
Punisher's Narrative Simplicity
00:17:47
Speaker
it's like, it's
00:17:47
Speaker
Basically a standard revenge plot more and more or less and um, and then when you get to war zone it's got a much more standard punisher plot in it, but you know that it goes into the Like we always see in a lot of the modern superhero movies where it's like, you know We're threatening the whole city with like nuclear annihilation or something like that. Whereas this one
00:18:09
Speaker
it knows its lane and it like stays right in it. It doesn't dwell on the origin. Sure, we do have the mafia hit boss who called the hit, but other than that, it is not playing with that standard Punisher origin story. We get the origin and brief flashes and that's all we need. And then we're off to the races pretty much. And so I think this, of all the movies, I think this is like the most, this story is like the most pure Punisher story of those three films.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yes. No, I agree. You know, crazy as it might sound. But but yeah, I mean, I think it really feels the most like a full on Punisher movie that when this starts, he's already well established. He's half a decade into his his tenure as the Punisher. Like you said, we get those brief flashes. You know, he's he's enacted his revenge on, you know,
00:19:02
Speaker
Crime you know criminals generally and the people most directly involved with the deaths of his family When one of the members gets out of prison at the beginning of the movie very quickly Frank makes short work of him and his associates and blows up the house They're in and everything, but it's like he's just full-on punisher. He's been operating in the city He's kind of known there's this punisher out there, but no one knows who he is his former partner on the force and
00:19:25
Speaker
suspects that it's Frank, but it's still very much an enigma, you know, who this guy actually is. So yeah, I like, you know, that's and I know we had that whole conversation about the Tom Jane movie, but yeah, like that whole thing, it's compelling. It was a compelling sort of watch, but it just didn't fully feel like the Punisher because really the entirety of that movie is him avenging his family. And then you get to him at the end on the bridge. It's like, oh, now he's the Punisher. Yes, we're just dropped right into a world where the Punisher has been active for five years.
00:19:55
Speaker
And I'm glad you mentioned that opening sequence, that opening scene, because like, that was one thing that baffled me too, about this extended opening with the weird, you know, monochromatic, uh, still images that he shoots. Because if you just opened on that opening scene, when he goes and he attacks, I'm like, that's a very strong opening right there. It's much stronger than what we get in, um, in that, uh, bizarre color scheme one. Right.
00:20:21
Speaker
And in fact, I think that that's actually one of the best because some of the action here, the action here, it varies. Like there's some really choppy editing in this. And so some of it's like, OK, that's a really drastic cut there between this shot and this shot. But but that opening sequence, you know, it seems like the the director Mark Goldblatt, he put a lot more care into that sequence than he did in some of the later ones in the film. Yeah, that's fair to say.
00:20:47
Speaker
Um, and one of the things too that, and this, I'm going to talk about, um, buddy of mine, Mark Buskett and bit of a digression, but did you by any chance listen to the episode I did with him on, uh, Batman forever? No, I don't think I caught that one.
00:21:03
Speaker
Okay so it is a very good episode and the interesting thing about Mark is he's got very unique theories about superhero movies and so we had him on for to talk about Batman Forever. He had the most unique take I've ever heard on Batman Forever and he also had a really unique take on these three Punisher
Punisher Trilogy Theory
00:21:20
Speaker
movies. He said if you kind of rearrange the order of them
00:21:24
Speaker
it is kind of a consistent trilogy. Whereas like if you put the Tom Jane movie first, right? That's like his origin story. And then you jump from that and you jump to the Warzone movie where he's like, he's in the middle of it. And then you go to this one, the 89 movie where he seems like he's burnt out. He kind of seems like he's at the end of this rope. It forms like a pretty consistent character arc throughout all three movies. And now having seen all three of them, I think he's got a really good point there.
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah, I do, too. It's it's true. I think if you just. Just sort of look at the essence of the character as presented across those three films, I think they line up in that sense, you know, kind of in a spiritual way, if not a strict narrative. Yeah, there's obviously obviously because he's a he's a cop in this one. He had two daughters. He's got the partner and the Tom Jane one. He was a FBI agent, I think, and then
00:22:20
Speaker
You know, he had just had the sun and then and obviously everybody gets shot to you know blown up in Puerto Rico as we talked about and then in and war zones the one that's the most true to the The comic origin where it's just you know, they were caught in the crossfire and he was just a he was a former military guy If you're looking for some kind of arc, I think that's I do think that's the way to look at these exactly.
Supporting Characters' Roles
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah and
00:22:47
Speaker
One of the things too I notice here is the character of Shake. So we've got this, he's got this informant who is this like burned out alcoholic actor, you know, failed actor. Thespian, yes, this name, played by a buriato called Shake, you know, from Shakespeare and also from the Shakes, because he's always, you know, craving alcohol.
00:23:10
Speaker
Now, I know you're much more of a you're much more clued into to D.C., but by any chance, have you ever read any Moon Knight comics, especially like the early stuff from like the 80s? Sad to say, I guess why I'm more of a DC guy. I've read my fair share of Marvel, but I've never read. I don't think I've ever read any moon night. OK, the Doug Monick, I think I'm pronouncing his name right. Moon Knight Run is amazing. But one of the interesting things about it is that
00:23:38
Speaker
And I don't know if this is just coincidence or what, but there is a character in that Moon Knight run named Crawley, and he's not a former actor, but he is this much more educated guy, and he's a homeless guy, and he is one of Moon Knight's informants. And it seems a lot like Shake is based on Crawley from those Moon Knight comics. So I just thought that was an interesting aspect of this. That is. I think one of the things
00:24:07
Speaker
with any Punisher movie, and you could say this about any story or even any comic book story about the importance of the people you surround your protagonist with, but I feel like that's even more pronounced when you're talking about Punisher because he's not a character who says a lot, right? It's usually this more silent, solitary figure. And so, okay, who's he going to be bumping up against? Who's going to be investigating him, studying him, hunting him, whatever the case may be. So I feel like you see that in all of these movies,
00:24:36
Speaker
the most part these three that we're talking about where that supporting cast really I think sheds a lot of insight into Who we're dealing with here. So I'm it's always kind of curious to see who they populate a Punisher movie with
00:24:50
Speaker
Uh, and so yeah, here to have shake to have again, the former partner and then the new detective who, who team up to try to try to find Frank. And then on the villain side here, we've got this war between the mafia and the Yakuza. And that takes a lot of turns, a lot of back and forth, uh, with that. But yeah, that I'm always particularly curious about when it comes to punisher, just who they surround him with, because like I said, he's not, doesn't say a whole lot.
00:25:14
Speaker
Yeah, and also too, in the comics especially, he doesn't really have much of a personality. I've always said like the Punisher is not so much a character in a lot of those comics. He is much more of like a force of nature and you know that amazing Garth Ennis Max run, it's
00:25:29
Speaker
He's almost like a secondary character and a lot of it like yeah he drives a lot of the story but the stories aren't really about him they are about those supporting cast like the slavers arc which is one of my favorite of that run is, is, it's all about the. It's more about the social worker who's, who's getting involved in that, or, you know, the.
00:25:48
Speaker
the in the beginning arc, which is so much about micro and as like this former partner of his and the the two CIA agents that he's working with O'Brien and I can't remember the other the other one. But in all these, in all these stories, it's always like these other characters in the max stuff, especially where they get the focus and Frank is just kind of there to drive the story or in like the, I think it was the Widowmaker arc where
00:26:16
Speaker
Frank is in a bed most of the time. He's incapacitated for most of that arc. Yeah, well, I think that's the thing with with as much as you can say about ongoing serialized comic stories that, you know, you always kind of have to go back to the status quo, but still, there's room to show different facets of the character, the civilian identity lessons or evolution that they go through. But with the Punisher,
00:26:44
Speaker
The character is not designed for that. It's not like, Oh, he's going to learn how to overcome his loss here. It's like, no, no, no, then he's not, then we're done. So I agree with you. I think force force of nature really is an apt way of looking at the character. Uh, he kind of just moves unchanged through, through the stories that he has. So that's why, again, I think, you know, kind of who he's surrounded with is always a key piece of the puzzle.
00:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, and I think we've seen like, this morning casting here, I think Lewis Gossett is a is a good choice here for Jake, as his former partner, he's got some stuff in there. And we get some little hints about his backstory, too, right? Apparently, he had been an alcoholic and everything. And it's an interesting contrast, because, you know, he talks about how Frank had, you know, helped him out of that. And it helped him, you know,
00:27:31
Speaker
come back from from being being an alcoholic and then he's got and then he's got shake here and it kind of shows how Frank has changed in that because where he's actively encouraging his alcoholism. I know the little robot car that that lures shake with the with the bottle of alcohol. I know. But also to the what did you think so much about Dolph Lundgren's performance here?
00:27:57
Speaker
Like I said, I think the physicality is there and that does go a long way. And certainly when we're talking 80s action stars, he's right there in the mix. So putting myself in the frame of mind of that period of time, there's something about it that certainly makes sense. Like I said, though, it's kind of hard.
00:28:18
Speaker
Not only, not only to buy the American accent, but also, I mean, a huge Rocky fan. So of course, like instantly you think of him as the symbol of communist Russia. Like I said, just the notion of, and especially, you know, it's only for a couple of flashes here, but when you see him in the flashbacks, when he's trying to save his family and he's just kind of at his normal civilian car, but just like kind of tough to, like I said, to kind of buy him in that otherwise.
00:28:47
Speaker
I don't know, it's tough because there's definitely a stiffness there in the performance. But I don't know that you would necessarily expect a ton different from this character. But I don't know. How did you feel about him? No, I like the first time I watched it, the stiffness really bothered me. And but now, you know, after being so much more in tune with the Punisher as a character and after, you know, I haven't read so much about him after seeing other interpretations of the character on screen. Right. We've had
00:29:17
Speaker
God, we've had so many actors play this character and each one is like a what off and that's it. But and and now when I look at it, it's
00:29:28
Speaker
He's not bad. I know it sounds like a backhanded compliment in a way. But no, I think he does a pretty decent job for the most part. His accent kind of slips in and out at places. And I'm not a fan of some of the quips here. That felt like another one of those 80 movies cliches that we got in here. But one of my favorite lines is when
00:29:51
Speaker
Uh, he's arrested and, uh, Jake says to him, it's like, what do you call 125 murders in five years? And he's just like a work in progress. Yeah. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. The quip, the quips, like when he's being tortured, he's like, oh, who are you working with Batman? Like, you know, some of this, some of them felt very out of place, but, uh, yeah, look,
00:30:13
Speaker
It's the same thing we were saying at the top. I wouldn't sit here and say, oh, this is one of the all time great comic book movie performances that we've ever seen. But yeah, I don't know. I think he he embodied the character more effectively than I anticipated. And like I said, I think the physicality and the intensity, you know, went a long way towards overcoming the stiffness.
00:30:37
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, he also he dyed his hair for the role, too, which, you know, considering how little faith they were trying to how how how little care they pair they played to being faithful to the comics here, even that was kind of a kind of a, you know, a surprise move because, you know, Dolph Lundgren was a decent enough star in the 80s where
00:30:59
Speaker
You know, you just had him with his regular blonde hair. I think it might have gotten people might have paid more attention to this. So I think I do give him credit for doing that much, too. Oh, you know, it's funny. That's a good point. Like, ironically, just letting him look the way everyone recognized him actually might have might have helped movie. But yeah. And you think, too, about how like we were saying that he didn't have the skull. I mean, because it comes with the Punisher. It's that's that's it. That's the iconography of the character.
00:31:29
Speaker
And you take that away and then it's just just a guy in tactical gear or whatever he happens to be wearing. So, yeah, you do think about if they had embraced the now my understanding, and this is really just from reading IMDB trivia, is that it actually was a choice. Right. Not to use the skull. It wasn't that they were prohibited in any way. So, yeah, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but there is this longstanding urban legend that Marvel actually refused to let them use the skull because they were like, you know, kind of
00:31:59
Speaker
they didn't want it to be they didn't want it to be on the movie or something like that and you know they're they're embarrassed by the movie or something along those lines is kind of what the urban legend is but yeah and what i was able to find in my research um it marvel had no marvel was actually very supportive of this movie stanley was you know he was actually an active consultant on it and everything um in fact it was funny uh stanley actually thought the movie was too violent and uh the director defended he's like well no this is a violent character it
00:32:28
Speaker
Um, which is funny. Now we usually see the, um, the, the, the opinions of like the publisher and the opinions of the, of the film studio is usually the opposite these days. The, the, uh, publisher is usually one saying like, you know, maybe this should be our rated R and the studio is like, no, no, we want it to go PG 13. Like with, um, uh, that's how we got once upon a Deadpool because, you know, Fox like, let's do a PG 13 version of this. And finally they're like, okay, we're going to do it, but we have to have Fred Savage in it too.
00:32:57
Speaker
And yeah, I know that is a that is a funny aspect to this.
Warzone's Tonal Inconsistencies
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah. And and Marvel was very, very into it. They were very supportive of it. So I don't know where the decision came in to not use the skull. It might have been the director because I know. I don't know if he had made this decision, but I know later on he said that he regretted not using the skull in it. So I think it might have been his decision, but I'm not 100 percent certain on that.
00:33:23
Speaker
Here's the thing, aside from the skull, I do feel like this is, as we've been saying, the most punisher of all the Punisher movies. And when you look at the more recent ones, I don't want to say, oh, they were afraid of being a full on Punisher movie, but the Tom Jane one
00:33:39
Speaker
In fairness, have they gotten a sequel with Tom Jane, presumably that would have then been the punisher that we were expecting and they were just taking their time in that first movie to explain why he is the way he is fair enough. But as you watch it, like we said, it's just really this this revenge story. It doesn't get into the broader ideology of the character. And then you have the Ray Stevenson movie. Rest in peace that at least
00:34:07
Speaker
tapped into the core of the character that he's just out there punishing the criminal element. But there was such a campiness, uh, particularly in the depiction of the, the, the antagonists in that movie. And to me, it's kind of like a baffling choice because I don't know at that period of time, like I don't, it was just kind of an odd angle to take. Whereas here, yes, there's a bit of,
00:34:32
Speaker
hokiness or whatever you want to call it but I that I kind of attribute more to the period of time like I can kind of understand okay that some of this he has there's a level of depth and nuance we're not quite achieving here and things are you know kind of over the top but it felt in keeping with that
00:34:48
Speaker
that era of film making where as you look at the warzone movie that's like why did you guys take this angle when you could have done something little more more earnest more more serious so again kind of factoring all of that in aside from the skull i feel like this was the one that most embraced the character of the punisher.
00:35:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like I feel like that the the Tom Jane one, I think that was just also very much a victim of its time where it's like, you know, superhero origin story movies, like all the craze back in the early 2000s. So so everything's got to have an origin story and everything's got to be tied in the origin. And it, like we talked about in that episode, the whole, you know, killing his entire killing hit everybody at a family reunion really felt like a studio note like, I know you're a supernatural fan, but remember the episode they did when they went to the
00:35:34
Speaker
the horror movie set and you have the Hollywood executive played by the guy from office space and he's saying like he's like well you know how do they hear the chanting down in hell like isn't just when we just put like a line of dialogue in there saying like they have superhero it's a logic problem and that feels in the 2004 movie that felt like a studio notes like well
00:35:56
Speaker
If it's just his wife and kids who die, then he still has other family. He still has his parents. He still has his his third cousins twice removed. So we should really get this done at a family reunion. Yeah. But then. Yeah. And then the in war zone, too. I'm not sure what happened there because. It feels like you had
00:36:21
Speaker
It feels like both sets of characters, like you had the heroic characters and you had the villain characters, it's like they both thought they were making two different movies. I feel like they told like Ray Stevenson and Wayne Knight and Julie Benz, like you are doing a serious hardcore
00:36:38
Speaker
crime movie and then they went to You know the guys who played Jigsaw and Looney Ben Jim and they're like you guys are doing a camp version of Of an action movie and I don't know What happened there? I'm not sure you know I thought Lexi Alexander did a pretty good job with the directing of the action and everything But I don't know what she was thinking without those notes. I
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, tonally, it's very dissonant here. It feels like everyone is making the same movie for better or worse, right? You're mileage over there, but at least it feels like everybody's kind of working towards towards the same thing here. Well, yeah, that's one of the things, too, as it's this is it's straight up an 80s B action movie, right? This is not like, you know, diehard level of quality or anything like here, but it's
00:37:23
Speaker
It's also not like asylum level of quality. It's pretty decent for, you're getting your money's worth in something like this. Like this is the kind of thing I could imagine, you know, renting from Blockbuster back in the day and just, you know, watching on like a Friday night or something. Like you said, it finds its lane. It stays in its lane. Um, I think it, it delivers what it promises to
00:37:51
Speaker
And I think what, and also the, and they do some things with the character here. Like they do make an attempt to have some sort of character journey to give him some sort of conflict here, where it's the whole idea of you're getting the, you know, you're forcing him, you're putting him in this situation where he has to help the children of the man who killed, who's responsible for his children's death. And,
00:38:19
Speaker
And I like that they did that angle of it, that they put him in this situation where he has to challenge himself a little bit, which you don't really get in the other movies. And I'll also say, they didn't know where this was going.
00:38:39
Speaker
Like again, at the beginning, he takes out the one guy who's just gotten out of prison and then, uh, you know, the, the head of the family comes back to town with, with his son and takes over and has all these grand ambitions. And then they're, he unites the other mafia families and they're bringing in this huge shipment of drugs that they're all going to work together to, to, to monetize.
00:39:00
Speaker
And Frank's there on the docks to try to take it out. And then you have these, as we come to find out, these Yakuza members who intervene and take out the mafia folks. And then there's this whole power play from the Yakuza. And again, a lot of back and forth there where they dictate these terms to the mafia. They refuse. Then the Yakuza kidnap all of their children.
00:39:21
Speaker
And try to set up this exchange but meanwhile they've already made arrangements to sell I mean very dark to sell very dark children into slavery you have like four out of the five families who agree to meet but then the Yakuza killed him anyway and Frank is able to to save all of the kids except the one son of the one guy who was responsible for his own family and
00:39:42
Speaker
like i said a lot of back and forth there but i didn't know exactly where this was was going to go as i was watching it so that actually was you know i did find it intriguing and i did like to your point the position that it put him in because it wasn't just about wiping everyone out there was really this
00:39:58
Speaker
moral dilemma and and you know it's shake right who kind of is the one who sets him on this path to help the kids yeah right because he's like I'm about punishing and but shake kind of points out like well this is the result of the punishing that you've been or the punishment you've been doling out like now we're in this situation
00:40:16
Speaker
So yeah, I like the quandary that it put him in. Like I said, is it mind as effectively as it could be? Maybe, maybe not, but at least it was kind of aspiring for something beyond just like, oh, he's just killing all of them. And the moral dilemma I think is made more interesting where the fact that it is one of these Yakuza guys, whereas in the 2004 film, the whole dilemma is he accidentally killed a cop, an undercover cop, and where it's
Moral Dilemmas in Film
00:40:44
Speaker
Yeah, but that's not, it's not quite the same level of, you know, we're not really challenging him as much in that one as I felt like you're trying to, at least aspiring to, like you said, in this one. So I did like that aspect of it. And one thing though I didn't like about it was at the end, when Franco betrays the Punisher, right? When he's got him down and he, like,
00:41:10
Speaker
He's on the ground. They've taken out the Yakuza. The kid is safe. And Franco tells his son, go out. I'll take care of him. And then he turns on him. And then they're struggling. And then during the fight, Frank ends up shooting Franco, which
00:41:25
Speaker
I don't know why you picked that name for the villain, make him so close to each other. Dude, I had the same thought. The first time I heard them say Franco, I'm like, really? Like you guys know the main character's name, Frank. But that's something I would have changed that. Like I would have had it as maybe Franco decides to let him live or something like that, or like he tries to take the gun or something.
00:41:53
Speaker
And then Frank is the one who stabs him in the back, I think would have been a much more satisfying, much more Punisher-esque end for that movie. Listen, I'm with you. And here's why, because like we're talking about, it's interesting when this movie puts him in that moral dilemma. As you're watching the last act of the movie where he has to, he teams up with the man who ordered the hit that killed Frank's family.
00:42:15
Speaker
the whole time, you're like, well, what's going to happen when the dust settles and it's the two of them? Will Frank have had some, you know, will there be some sort of, even understanding is probably too strong a word, but some sort of understanding between these two guys where Frank could potentially let him go? And deep down as I'm watching him, I'm like, well, he's, he's the punisher. No, I don't see him letting this guy go. But I was curious to see it play out. And my expectation, my hope was that
00:42:44
Speaker
Franco would would be willing to come to terms with Frank and then Frank would have to make the decision which I feel like is the more effective storytelling choice to make your protagonist have to make the choice as opposed to Franco turns on him they fight and then he has to kill Franco because that just removes that that choice which I think would have been an interesting one so I mean it leads to it does lead to an interesting moment with the Sun Where the Sun is like I'm gonna shoot you and you
00:43:11
Speaker
Frank kneels down in front of him and puts the gun right up to his head. And all this kid has to do is pull the trigger. And he's like, just do it. If you do it now, maybe you can avoid a life of this. So like that aspect of it was interesting. So I guess you kind of get that moment. But yeah, I wish it had gone the other way with with Frank and Franco. Yeah. And you know, Lundgren is such an interesting guy, because I think he's someone who is
Dolph Lundgren's Unique Background
00:43:32
Speaker
his life story is so much more interesting than any character he has ever played because I don't know if you know a whole lot about his background but this is a guy who was you know he was a chemical engineer and then he became like the the arm candy of grace jones and then he ended up going into acting after that and it's just
00:43:48
Speaker
Like when people watch The Expendables 2 and have that reference of him being a chemical engineer, everyone in the audience is probably like, Dolph Lundgren is a chemical engineer? No fucking way. And it's like, no, he actually was. I remember in university talking to someone about it and I was telling the story and a buddy of mine, I was telling him like, yeah, do you know Dolph Lundgren was a chemical engineer? The guy just starts laughing his ass off. I'm like, I'm dead serious. He was a chemical engineer. The guy's like, I do not believe you.
00:44:16
Speaker
I know he had can't judge a book by its cover. You know, it's guys had a very interesting, very interesting journey. Mm hmm. One of my favorite Dolph Lundgren stories, though, is apparently some guys had broken into his house and I think it was his his fiance was there and like they they were going to rob and they and they see a picture on the on the dresser and it's Dolph Lundgren in the picture and they realize, oh, shit, we're Dolph Lundgren's house. And then they leave.
00:44:43
Speaker
That is not to not to take us into rocky territory, but I'll just say that one of the things that I was so surprised pleasantly surprised by watching Creed two was, you know, you took this character who was just one note in Rocky four and actually like he had the most interesting arc I felt in Creed two. And it was it was like amazing just to see this whole other side and what he brought to it. So, yeah, no, I'm a fan. I mean, I think he's one of these guys who, you know,
00:45:14
Speaker
most of the most like a lot of a lot of action heroes, a lot of action stars, they end up, you know, getting into a little bit more sadder territory as they get into into their later years, like you look at like Bruce Willis and what had happened to him after he'd, you know, apparently contract developed dementia. But you look at Lundgren, I think this is a case of he's actually gotten a little bit better with age. Yeah,
00:45:39
Speaker
Absolutely and and that scene we were talking about when he when he confronts the Sun and I'm like Honestly, I'm like, this is some solid acting from him. Like he's doing a pretty damn job I believe him in this scene that he actually does want to die and And the line he gives him at the end. He's like, you know, you know, he doesn't say, you know, he says, you know Be a good, you know be a good man grow up to be a good man And if you don't then I'll be waiting like it. Yeah, and very strong
00:46:10
Speaker
vibes from from Kill Bill when when the bride confronts the daughter in that in that first movie. Yes. Oh, I'm so overdue for rewatch of those films. But but yeah, no, it definitely had that vibe to it. I like that a lot because it.
00:46:26
Speaker
I feel like in that moment when he's on the ground and he's, yeah, you get the sense that, yes, he just wants this to be over. And I don't know, I believe him too, that if he thinks this will stop this kid from turning into his fault, like if he gets it out of his system now, maybe he can be something else later. But then again, like it doesn't stray too far because he still issues that warning at the end, which I like. Speaking of this kid though, Tommy, right? He's a son. There's a scene where Tommy, when he's locked up with all the other kids and he's having a fight with one of the other
00:46:55
Speaker
mafia sons because Tommy is unaware of what his father actually does.
00:47:01
Speaker
back and forth when the kid's talking about his day, he's like, that's bullshit. And he's like, you're bullshit. Like, all right, good comeback, I guess. I also really liked Kim Iori as Lady Tanaka on this. I thought she did a pretty good job as as as this villain in this, like, you know, this, you know, this Yakuza madam who is, you know,
00:47:26
Speaker
has this backstory where they grew up in a Tokyo orphanage and to prove her loyalty she slits her brother's throat and just like her ruthlessness throughout it all I thought she did a pretty I thought she did a really good job playing that.
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah, she was very intriguing and, you know, they kind of had a bit of a BDSM vibe going on there. She was in her leather at a certain point and especially when, you know, Frank is in that torture contraption and he's being stretched and she's, you know, running her finger on his body. It's like, all right. Interesting.
00:48:00
Speaker
what what do you think about that scene is that apparently that was uh... kim you already had lived at like she could she was actually really interested in dole one brings body so she was actually actually doing that and they decide to keep that in it i read that too on the on the uh... i'm dv yeah i mean it definitely gave this i think it just kind of added this other dimension to that scene i'm glad they kept it because it was uh... again it definitely set out
00:48:26
Speaker
Yeah, she's got this. And you know, I found it very interesting like her and like the her daughter's like earring shuriken thing. Like I was thinking when I'm looking at her, I'm like, I could see these characters being in an NS comic, like I could see him creating a character something like this. And, you know, it made me curious to see like, you know, I would like to see someone, you know, bring these characters up in the comics and put them up in a Punisher comic and see how it how it shakes out.
Reviving Punisher Elements
00:48:54
Speaker
Look, over the years and you know this better than anyone covering all of these on your show, we've had such a range of comic book movies. And I think the even when we're in the range of the lesser ones, it's always interesting to see, you know, what might have worked, where did it ultimately go wrong? Was the movie just so off the mark? You know, on my Patreon show, we looked at Catwoman, for example, like an instance there. And I know that has its fans and it's become like a camp classic. I appreciate that. But
00:49:24
Speaker
You look at it and it's just like, this is not Catwoman, like it's something. But it's just like so far off the mark. And then you have other films. And I don't know, I kind of put like the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern or the early 2000s Fantastic Four movies in this category of they missed the mark, but not so wildly. There was something going on there. It just didn't come together the way it fully needed to.
00:49:47
Speaker
And something like this, I don't know exactly where I would place it. Definitely not in the camp catwoman camp camp. It's like it's it's there's a lot. I think the bones of this are actually solid. And that's so all of that is to say to your point, it's like, yeah, I would be curious to see whether it was in a comic, an updated film, you know, a Disney plus series or whatever, whatever form it would take. But to kind of see the bones of this and maybe some of these characters, you know, repurpose because, yeah, I like there's something here.
00:50:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, honestly, the biggest problems I have with it are some of the the change from the conference. Like, I don't think he's got to be an ex cop or anything like that. I think it's it's I think it would work very well if you just have because they don't do a whole lot with the Jake and Frank. Again, you're rhyming names here, missing choices with these names here. But, you know, you don't that relationship
00:50:42
Speaker
doesn't really develop a whole lot. There's not a whole lot of there. There's some interesting stuff there when he talks about their past. But as for how it informs the present, it's, it's not as interesting. They don't really seem to come to any sort of real resolution with that. So I mean, you didn't really have to make him, you know, a former cop, I don't think especially because this was 89. He could have actually been a Vietnam vet in this.
00:51:04
Speaker
I agree. No, listen, I agree with you because him being a cop really adds nothing and is not used in it. I guess it's used used in the sense that it helps account for how he tracks people down and this familiarity with weapons. But again, a military past would serve the same function. The only other thing is, like you said, that it gives us this backstory with with the cop. But
00:51:31
Speaker
Again, we're really just, we're told, like it's an interesting backstory, but we're just told it. And it doesn't really end up having much payoff. You could have just done something where Frank saved this guy or save someone close to this guy. And that forms some kind of connection where now this guy wants to, doesn't just want to bring him in, but actually wants to help him. You know, you'd say we'd still kind of get the same dynamic. Uh, cause yeah, I mean, him being a cop really doesn't factor into this otherwise.
00:51:57
Speaker
I also thought it was interesting that his, Sam Leary, his new partner in this, she convinces him just by saying, like, I believe Frank Castle is the Punisher. And like, you know, I don't know, if I was Jake in this situation where I know the mayor and everybody is pissed that I'm still running down this rabbit hole, then I'd be very suspicious of the first person who comes along and says, I wanna be your partner because I believe your crazy theory that nobody else believes.
00:52:25
Speaker
It felt a little bit like, OK, we need this to happen for the plot, so we're just going to make it happen. When he says to her, do you know where my like he has this seemingly has his quick turn. He's like, you know where my office is. I was waiting for the other shooter drop and him to be like, well, forget it or something like that. But he's like show up there and I'm like, oh, OK, he's just on board with this. Yeah. And.
00:52:46
Speaker
One of the things too, I think that even though they left off the skull insignia, they did an interesting thing with his five o'clock shadow because it does kind of, and I think there was some makeup work done there because his face does have, I think part of it also helps that he's got these very defined cheekbones, but it does kind of form like a skull image in his face then.
00:53:10
Speaker
Yeah, at least they at least they gave us that they gave us that much. Yeah. And to your point, too, about where would you place this in terms of, you know, different categories of superhero movies, right?
1989 Punisher Film Legacy
00:53:21
Speaker
You have the ones that are like, you know, very faithful to the comics. You have ones that, you know, they get close, they kind of miss the mark and.
00:53:28
Speaker
I think a lot of people they they kind of discount these movies because of the time they were made in because the obviously low budget and you know Marvel did not have let's be honest Marvel did not put a lot of care into who they sold these the rights to back then they were selling it to basically anyone who said they can make a movie and I mean this but this is not like you know
00:53:52
Speaker
the 1990 Captain America movie or the Roger Corman Fantastic Four or anything like that. It's a pretty earnest effort. It's a pretty solid attempt. I would probably put this more in line with
00:54:04
Speaker
I don't know if you ever saw it, but the David Hasselhoff Nick Fury TV movie, because it's got a low budget. It's got its problem. It's got some of these little campy things of the time. But there isn't earnestness. The story itself is actually pretty good for one of these movies. And there isn't earnestness and an attempt to do the character justice in both what Lundgren does here and what Hasselhoff did in Nick Furies. And people look at me cross-eyed whenever I say that, but honestly, yeah, I think they did
00:54:33
Speaker
They did a pretty good job in trying to adapt these characters. I've never seen that one, but I'll take your word for it. I'll take your word for it. I will just one other thing by talking about I was just going back to our conversation about him as a cop. One thing when he gets off the bus after he's rescued all the kids except Tommy from the Yakuza and save them from being sold into slavery and all of the cops there are waiting for him.
00:54:57
Speaker
I mean, I guess the way it played out made sense, but I was expecting them to let him go. I had this gut feeling of like he's just rescued all of these kids. He's a former cop, so he's one of them. I mean, it's tough. You don't really get a sense of what the force as a whole thinks about him, which is always an interesting aspect to all of this, like the actual law enforcement personnel in the city. How do they view this character out there?
00:55:23
Speaker
Is he a hindrance? Does he help? Is it helpful to kind of have this buggy man that they can kind of intimidate, at least with the idea of? I don't know. But yeah, I kind of had that sense when he got off the bus that they were going to let him go, but clearly that's not the way they went. No, I didn't think about that at the time, but now that you mention it, that does make a lot of sense, especially with him being a former cop. I think at this point, you would probably see
00:55:51
Speaker
some sort of emotional reaction from those cops, knowing that this is a guy they literally worked with. And that's been a recurring theme in the Punisher comic books, is how does law enforcement view him? And even the Warzone touched on this with
00:56:12
Speaker
how the reason why Soap is the head of the task force is because cops actually like what Frank's doing. They just want to have the barest image of trying to bring him in.
00:56:24
Speaker
you know, there's that in this line in the comics where I think it was I think it may have been welcome back Frank or might have been the one of the Mac stuff where one of the cops is like, I don't want to be on the Punisher task force. You know how many of these guys love the Punisher? They I mean, they say he does our job for us. You know, I'm gonna be an outcast if I if I go down this route, and or even taking it to another extreme like in. I don't know if you read
00:56:48
Speaker
Matthew, I think it was Matthew Rosenberg, who did a Punisher run a few years back. But he had like, and this was very tied into like the whole blue lives movement and how a lot of cops, you know, have like Punisher skulls on their uniforms or on their cars or whatnot. He actually addressed that with like, you know, a bunch of these cops finding
00:57:08
Speaker
running into the Punisher, and they're like, oh, we love you. And they show him the insignia on this car. And Frank reads on the riot act. He takes the sticker off. He tears it up. And he's like, you want a role model? Go talk to Captain America. I am not your role model.
00:57:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's very interesting. Again, with him being a cop, I feel like this is another instance in this film where they got close to something more interesting. And like I said, that scene where he gets off the bus could have been an opportunity to do something with the fact that he's a former cop. Like I said, either there's just not enough motivation or I don't know where it falls apart, but it was close to something there.
00:57:53
Speaker
Well, it's the same thing with that that speech that Sam gives him when they're when they're transporting him right before he gets he gets rescued. Like it's that it's just something that it's she drops this bomb on him. She's like, she's like, you know, he was your friend. You know, he's he still cares about you and all this and like you should and it just gets ignored. Like we don't do anything with that after that. I mean, we don't really see much of them after that.
00:58:17
Speaker
But yeah, I agree. The cop thing, and I feel like the cop thing was just added because that was the thing in the 80s was, you know, cops at cop hero movies, you know, you had Die Hard, you had all these other films.
Religious Undertones in Character
00:58:28
Speaker
So I think that was just kind of like, you know, this is the thing now. So this is what we're gonna do.
00:58:35
Speaker
But yeah, and another thing, too, like you had mentioned the the like praying he does. And I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I thought it was an interesting tie in either whether either intentional or not to the comics where, you know, before he ended up going in the military, Frank was it was in the seminary, he was going to become a priest.
00:58:56
Speaker
That's right. I forgot about that. And there's before the Marvel Knights relaunch, right? Wasn't there an arc where he was where he died? And then but he was like an avenging angel or something like that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the Michael, I think it was Michael Goldman did that. Yeah. That was in the 90s. Obviously after this. Right. That was. Yeah. That was the that was the first. Yeah. That was the first line of Marvel Knights books. So that was like it was so weird. You had the you had the Kevin Smith Daredevil. You had the Christopher Priest, Black Panther.
00:59:22
Speaker
Paul Jenkins and Humans, all three very well received books, and then you had this very bizarre take on the Punisher as the fourth pillar of that Marvel Knights line.
00:59:32
Speaker
Yeah, but no the religious aspect interesting setup here and he's in his sweat lodge essentially in the sewers is always candles and he's naked and sweating and just kneeling there and praying and it's like it's quite it's quite the imagery and just the fact that they got into that at all. I guess I give them some credit for.
00:59:53
Speaker
And again, I'm not sure how much of that was intentional and they were pulling from the comics with that or I'm not even sure when the the priest back home was introduced in the comics So this it may have even predated the comics for all I know But I also want to talk quickly about about shake the the actor character What do you think of this guy in the movie
01:00:17
Speaker
He was fine. I think he served the quasi-sidekick function. There's at least one scene where it's very pronounced that he's rhyming as he's speaking. But remember, was that in every scene? I guess I feel like there was one scene where it really stood out, and I don't know that it was consistent throughout.
01:00:41
Speaker
it was not consistent that was driving me nuts and that's what i wanted to mention so i'm glad you touched on that because like every time i'm watching and i'm like wait a minute he is rhyming in this scene is he doing this every time but then you know and that's the scene when he's trying to convince frank about um you know going to save the children and you know and then frank says you know i punish the guilty and then he rides off and he's like and then the innocent must suffer and then it just like i'm like okay there's the rhyming just stops here now and then like there it goes in and out and that
01:01:09
Speaker
That part of it kind of annoyed me. I'm just like, this feels like you're kind of pushed into the more campy territory now.
01:01:17
Speaker
Yes, I could do without it altogether. But if you're going to do it, you got to do it all the way through. And look, when the he in the climax of the film, he's tasked with, you know, blowing the electrical box right to turn out the lights and all that. And then, of course, he drops, you know, he drops the remote down the sewer and he's got a I mean, I don't know that part was, you know, I don't like I could kind of take her leave that. Yeah. I mean, it's not he's
01:01:45
Speaker
not as entertaining as say like Mickey in the 2004 version or or even or obviously my favorite one was both versions of Microchip you know Wayne Knight in the in the in Warzone and Evan Moss I can't remember the rest of his name but who did it in the in the Netflix show too
01:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, the one who's not gonna be the thing in Fantastic Four. Is that the actor? Oh, that's right. That's yeah, that you're right. I completely did not connect those two things. Yes. Yes. Wow. I don't know how I missed out on that connection. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's not a bad movie. It's pretty solid for its time. And if you can, you know, look past some of the obvious dated stuff on it, and some of the stuff that was very much part of the 80s action movie zeitgeist, I think there's, there's some good, there's some really good stuff in here.
01:02:36
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Like I said, I appreciate the opportunity to watch the film and talk about it. I don't know that I would have watched it otherwise. So again, it was it was certainly entertaining and.
01:02:48
Speaker
You know, we look at the current state of these comic book movies and especially the MCU, which continues to have the the most frequent output. I know they're scaling back now a little bit, but we've gotten so many movies from the Marvel factory and I don't want to paint with a broad brush. I know there there are different angles that are taken in the movies, but I think kind of that overall sense of fatigue and this the sense of the of sameness. I do I do feel that to at least some degree with exceptions.
01:03:17
Speaker
And but I think because of that, because we've now had so many years of seeing of seeing a certain kind of comic book movie, there is something really kind of fun and intriguing about watching a throwback like this that's just out there doing its own thing. And so, again, I like it's for anyone who hasn't watched it, it's worth watching. I just in terms of access, it's on YouTube. I've watched it on YouTube. The whole thing is up there.
01:03:43
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, yeah, and I think you know, that's a fair point, right? I mean, I love the Marvel movies. I'm listening to the show know that but it is a fair point that there is a kind of sameness to a lot of them and you know, and not everything has to be this big budget CGI extravaganza you can do something. I mean, that's one of the beauties about of the superhero genre is that it's not a genre necessarily.
Grounded Superhero Narratives
01:04:08
Speaker
It's more like, you know, it's literally like a costume you can put on other genre movies and
01:04:13
Speaker
I think they, and I thought the, and again, the Netflix, I just rewatched the, after watching this movie, I wanted to go back to the Netflix series. So I rewatched the first two episodes of season one of The Punisher. And, you know, and they did a really cool take on it there. And it's like, you can have these, you know,
01:04:32
Speaker
lower budget, much more practical movies with a character like The Punisher or with a character like Daredevil. It doesn't all have to be CGI stuff. And I think that that's a lesson that I, I mean, well, they've now completely retooled the Daredevil reborn series they're going to be doing. And they've now said completely that the stuff from Netflix is now completely in continuity here.
01:05:01
Speaker
They're bringing back John Bernthal. And I don't know if you saw Echo, but that was also very grounded and very...
01:05:10
Speaker
disconnected from the rest of the Marvel Universe. And I think that's a good thing to do. It's a good thing to have these different approaches. That's one of the beauties of these big comic book universes is that this stuff is not all the same. If you want hardcore street level stuff, you've got the Punisher, you've got Daredevil, you've got Moon Knight. If you want horror stuff, you've got Blade and Doctor Strange. But if you want the superhero stuff, you've got the Avengers and DC, same thing. You've got the Vertigo stuff, you've got John Constantine.
01:05:39
Speaker
But you've also got stuff that is much more family friendly, or kid friendly, or however you want to describe it. And I think studios are kind of missing out on some potential here by not exploiting those ideas.
01:05:58
Speaker
Absolutely and you know when I when when we talk about the quote-unquote sameness or when I talk about it I think it is more in terms of that the CGI extravaganza and The stakes in these movies which are always so high and I think that's what I liked so much about something like this or even when we looked at the Tom Jane version where it is street level and you can have just these practical stunts and fights and the stakes are
01:06:28
Speaker
you know, quote unquote smaller, but I, but far more personal and relatable. Like, is he going to save these kids? Right. Where you can really, you can really kind of buy into that. It doesn't always have to be the world, the universe, the multiverse, those movies, like those are fun, but they don't always need to be like that. And so I think that's, that's what I found most refreshing about going back and watching something like this, which is how, how grounded it was. So yeah, no, I think it seems like Marvel's learning the right lessons, especially with the return of the Daredevil show. And I hope it,
01:06:58
Speaker
Stays in that vein and does more like this because yeah, it's good just to have that kind of variety I couldn't agree more. I hope on the DC side, you know, I hope you know Get to see something on the same lines of having that variety
01:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think DC's, you know, it seems like because, you know, James Gunn has said, like, we want to keep stuff like Joker and the Matt Reeves stuff intact. So hopefully we're going to keep going that route, too. But but yeah, I would like to see more more stuff in this vein. I mean, you know, I think the James Bond movies are actually a good comparison of this because you had, you know,
01:07:31
Speaker
Every movie it became like some world threatening terrorist threat. And then when they rebooted it, it's just like, no, it's just James Bond has got to beat this guy in poker. And that's like, yeah. And that was one of the best James Bond movies ever made.
01:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, I still remember. I mean, vivid, vivid memory of watching that in the theaters. And I was just blown away by it. So, yeah, it's like I would love to see a flash movie where it's rogue war, where it's just going up against drugs. I don't need flashpoint. I don't need time travel. I don't need any of that. Just, you know, we can kind of even even with the character like Flash, who is, you know, in that realm, you can still do something that's a little bit more down to earth. So absolutely. No, this was I appreciate the the, you know, the opportunity to do this. It was fun.
01:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, so just two more things briefly. So first off, they've got, speaking of the MCU, they do have Secret Wars coming and the rumors that they're bringing back all these actors who played superheroes in the
Dolph Lundgren in MCU Speculation
01:08:30
Speaker
past. And obviously we're getting Hugh Jackman in Deadpool and Wolverine. We had Patrick Stewart come back and Dr. Strange. We had Kelsey Grammer come back at the end of the Marvels. Would you wanna see Dolph Lundgren pop up in Secret Wars?
01:08:46
Speaker
Oh, hell yeah. Why not? Why not? It sounds, yeah, no. Even if it's just a brief little thing. Look, I don't mean to keep going back to DC in the Flash. I had a lot of problems with the Flash movie, but one of them was, and people think I'm being facetious. I mean it sincerely. Where the hell was the Shaq steel cameo?
01:09:04
Speaker
Could have had a spot for him there. No, like all of these things, and look, all of these movies have their fans. And I don't know, especially for what Marvel's doing now or what they've been doing with the multiverse and wherever the MCU ends up settling in terms of who's populating it in from what worlds. I don't know where they're going with that, but it sounds like Secret Wars would be an opportunity to just really make it this jam and just have everybody back. And yeah, no, I would love to see that.
01:09:33
Speaker
I'd love to see it too. I'm given the skull shirt finally too. After all these years, he finally gets it. But yeah, I think that'd be cool. And the other thing is I want to say like, you know, we got these three Punisher movies, right? So we got this one, we got the 2004 one and we got Warzone. How would you rank these three?
01:09:52
Speaker
Oh, the the Tom Jane one to me is the most polished, the most complete. I mean, the biggest and not to rehash the episode that I already did. I mean, like, yeah, the biggest knock is that he's just not fully the punisher in that movie. But they were setting that up. And I think even though they, to your point, maybe maybe overshot the mark and massacring literally his entire extended family.
01:10:16
Speaker
Uh, and we also, I know we also talked about, you know, setting it in Miami instead of New York. Maybe it was a little bit of something there, but I, but I think that was, it's still, it still felt like the character. And yeah, I think just in terms of production value and, and all like, it just felt the most polished, the most complete. So that would be my number one.
01:10:34
Speaker
Honestly, I'd probably put this at number two before Warzone. I had fun when I rewatched it and I did that episode with Darren. It was a good time, but I don't know. People might think I'm insane, although not that Warzone really has many fans, so maybe people don't feel that strongly. But no, I would probably go the Tom Jane movie, this, and then Warzone. What about you?
01:10:58
Speaker
I think I might be the same way. Each one has something different about it that I like more than the others. I think the depiction of Frank I think is best in the Tom Jane version. I think he completely nailed the character and who he is. I like the story in this movie. I think the most punisher, like we said, it's the most punisher story of the three that we've gotten so far.
01:11:23
Speaker
Um, but I also kind of liked the idea of Frank being like this burned out shell that he kind of, that Dolph Lundgren plays it as here. And then the war zone, honestly, I think the, um, I think the action is probably the best in that one of the three and also the, the supporting cast, right? I mean, Wayne Knight is micro, I thought was perfect casting. And you also had, you had, you had soap in there as well. You had Colin Salmon too, as, um, the, the other detective. I mean, great supporting cast in that film.
01:11:54
Speaker
Yeah. Agreed. I know they, they each had something, but yeah, I think that's, that's where I would, I would go with these. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, this is a lot of fun, Anthony. Uh, definitely got to have you on a little bit more than like, you know, what's been like a year or two years since last time we had you on. Um, but why don't you tell people where they can find you?
01:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. Again, the, the two main podcasts that I'm doing digging for kryptonite and another exciting episode in the adventures of Superman. So both shows available on all major podcast platforms and on social media, digging for kryptonite has profiles on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter threads, all that, all that good stuff. So, uh, yeah, feel free to reach out and,
Podcast Promotion & Support
01:12:31
Speaker
uh, yeah. And thank you again for having me.
01:12:33
Speaker
Well, thanks again, and we'll have links to all that stuff in the show notes. You guys can go check that out. As for us, superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on the socials, which is pretty much Instagram, threads, and blue sky these days. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
01:12:54
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Superhero Cinephiles is produced by me, Percival Constantine, with the support of Zencaster. The show is created by myself and the late, great Derek Ferguson, our host, Emeritus. Visit us on the web at SuperheroCinephiles.com to listen to past episodes or find out how you can be a guest yourself. Support the show by visiting our advertiser links or click the Buy Me a Coffee link on the website to make a one-time donation. You can also support us by visiting Crowdfunder.com slash ParagonsComic. That's Crowdfunder with no E,
01:13:23
Speaker
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01:13:57
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.