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#10 - Rishabh Meswani
55 Plays3 months ago
We sit down with THE local legend Rishabh Meswani. Shoot the shit and pick Rishabh's brain on his journey, his motivations, and his struggles re: his insanely successful now international nonprofit - Fremont Debate Academy
Recommended
Transcript
Defeating Insurgents: Impact on Global Relations
00:00:00
Speaker
The response to this is that, oh yeah, we're going to defeat these insurgent groups. Like we talked about, there's only one insurgent group. Other insurgent groups are terrorists, we solve for ISIS, and thus we win this debate, and we don't cause anti-Western sentiment that causes the power vacuum, that creates a positive feedback loop to cause more terror in the first place. So when we look at the three big issues that I talked about in the very beginning, we showed you that we better solve for ISIS.
00:00:23
Speaker
We better solve for killing these insurgent groups that are harmful to the society there. We help create allies because we help the European Union with their massive problem and massive crisis with Syrian refugees. And we actually go and help NATO and Russia in helping with shared intelligence and shared air force.
00:00:39
Speaker
And for those reasons, I strongly urge and forever goodbye.
Emotional Connection to Sports
00:02:00
Speaker
I was just watching the game, man. Holy shit. So sad. We lost at the end. Yeah. That seemed like a very close game. And it looked like they they messed up in the last quarter. They did mess up in the last quarter. Yeah. It's just, it's cool to like, don't know. I was thinking about like how like the emotion that comes with playoffs and everything. like i feel that I feel that a bit more now than I used to.
00:02:21
Speaker
I mean, I used to care, but I feel like now I understand why I care a bit more. All these storylines, you know, all these people working really hard and right there's so much chemistry dynamics between people and managers and league and drama. And there's just so much that goes into it.
00:02:37
Speaker
I've come to like appreciate that a bit more. Totally get that. Yeah. I mean, I feel the same about cricket and swimming, two sports I think I follow the most, especially cricket. And sometimes I get so invested into it, it affects my day. If a team loses, then I'm like, why does it affect me? yeah It's a team and life moves on. not like I'm playing for this team or they even know who I am. So why shouldn't bother me? But for some reason it does. you know so Yeah.
00:03:00
Speaker
It's also like kind of like an ego thing, It was like, it's not me. Like, I'm not playing the fucking game. Like, i have my own damn life to live. Like, why should this affect anything and me? Right?
00:03:10
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like a lot of people that watch sports all day weekends, you know, every weekend, like, sometimes, like, i i judge them. Like, bro, like, go outside, yeah live your own life.
00:03:23
Speaker
but actually touch grass and play sports. Yeah, touch the grass, man. Like, I guess there's a balance, but it is it is cool. Like, I do understand where it comes from. If people didn't care, then the sport wouldn't be a big deal. so you need You need something to believe in, you know? You need some something to be passionate about. That's true. That's true. I mean, that's literally what's happening, though, is you're identifying with the team that's why That's where, like, all of the emotional reaction comes from, and that's why it almost feels like something's personally happened to you when your team loses.
00:03:51
Speaker
If it's a sport like cricket where the country matters a lot, then you might affect the country. oh If it's like, you know I don't know, basketball, the Warriors, if you' from the Bay Area or like, you know, Lakers, l LA, whatever. then there's also like people who will care about teams that they have no regional affiliation with, right? Yeah. Like, Devam, for soccer, like i'm I'm forgetting which team you you support, but technically you don't have any regional affiliation with it. no yeah, nothing. It's like, what is it? It's like a vibe.
Wrongful Deportation Case and Its Implications
00:04:17
Speaker
It's like ah you identify with maybe the culture, the values of the fucking, the org or the player way it's run, you know, the players. Maybe you have a favorite color. Favorite person. Like this team is literally anything. Yeah. Like my favorite color is red. So I'm going to support fucking Arsenal. Yeah.
00:04:38
Speaker
yeah Yeah. But then it grows from there. And I don't know. I feel like we need, we need more literature on this. Dylan's getting emotional, you know, Steve just lost. He's bossing you. I'm fine. we have It's not over yet. They have have a chance to close together.
00:05:00
Speaker
yeah. 3-1, but they have to win this playoff round to right? Yeah, so now they need to win three games straight, which is really hard, but it's possible it's not yeah it's not impossible. It's happened before. It's happened before. Yeah, exactly.
00:05:13
Speaker
There you go. Entire episode is going to be grieving. I know. In 2023, I went to the Cricket World Cup in India, right? Me and my dad, we went to three games. And India lost in that final.
00:05:24
Speaker
they i'm like I'm sure Devon knows about that final. And yeah you might you may have watched part of it too. I feel like the whole country was so sad. I feel like I was so unproductive for a month. I was like, man, I found so much financial and emotional energy on this World Cup. And then we got so close. They were the best team easily. And then they lost in the last game. so I feel like grieved more than any other, in any other part of my life in terms of sports, obviously. That one month, for sure. And it was all over social media, too. Call it a Too sad.
00:05:53
Speaker
know. Have you been following this crazy story about how they deported this guy with the Real Madrid? Bro, that shit is... so insane it's so crazy not only did they deport the guy accidentally they they acknowledged that yeah it was accidental and then they refused to do anything to bring him back that's so terrifying it's insane he's just like yeah you know what it happened but we can't save everyone you know Bro literally got kidnapped by the
Meet Rishabh Miswani and Fremont Debate Academy
00:06:25
Speaker
government.
00:06:25
Speaker
So the governor of the state where this guy was living in, he has a family there, by the way. He's like a wife and kids. Yeah. The governor of that state goes to El Salvador and he's like, hey, we need proof that this man is alive. Like, what the hell is going on? We need you guys to release this man.
00:06:42
Speaker
And he stays there for like two or three days. And El Salvador is just like, no. Yeah. And so he he refuses to leave. Eventually, i don't know how, like maybe they applied pressure somehow.
00:06:54
Speaker
By the way, the Supreme Court in this time has ruled that you have to bring him back. And even after that, he's like, no, we're not doing anything about it. And people are arguing that, no, he's actually a terrorist man without any facts at all, which is insane, insane. yeah But this guy eventually gets a meet. And there's pictures that he actually meets with this man. When he does that, he announces that, hey, I have met this man.
00:07:17
Speaker
He is alive. I will be making no further comments until I'm back in the U.S. Because he's scared if he says anything like he's in El Salvador. Who the hell knows what's going happen to him in El Salvador?
00:07:28
Speaker
They just take the senator El Salvador. so So all these news reports, they report this and then there's a brief wait for a day until he gets back. And then the next day we get the report that, oh, this guy has been not treated well in prison.
00:07:42
Speaker
Like it's really like I forgot the exact details, but they're talking about like how vile the living conditions are and all that stuff. Yeah. This is not like funny to me though, because it's so fucking scary.
00:07:53
Speaker
The government can literally just kidnap you, send you to an El Salvador jail with like violent gang members, be like, yeah, that was our bad, bro, but we're not going to do anything to help you and just fucking leave you to rot there.
00:08:06
Speaker
All right. So I guess to kick things off, I'd just like to introduce our guests, the one and only Rishabh Miswani. Rishub is the founder of Fremont Debate Academy, ah nonprofit which has stretched out far past Fremont at this point and is focused on providing debate and civics programs around the globe for students. FDA has worked in across eight different countries at this point in more than 15 states. I mean, it's just an amazing project that's doing great work around the globe. Speaking more personally, though, me and Rishiv have been frenemies since high school.
00:08:40
Speaker
ah We both roomed together during college as well. Yeah, I love this man. And it's been just crazy seeing this all grow. I still remember the initial seeds of this idea when it was just this small thing in Fremont. And it's been crazy to see just how it's developed over time and to see your personal development over the years. Love you too, man.
00:09:01
Speaker
So glad you're here, bro. I will say like Rishav is one of the quirkiest people I've ever met. He's so different. It's actually insane. He doesn't care about music, which is insane to me.
00:09:13
Speaker
but What are some other facts I hear? Like, let's let's roll it up. Oh God, where do I even start the beans, bro? ah The beans, yes, the beans. He has a weird obsession with beans and toast. And not just like nobody ever believes me when I tell the facts about the sorts of beans and toast this man eats, but he just takes beans straight from the can and pours them onto bread and will just eat it.
00:09:37
Speaker
I remember I was telling one of my friends from high school, Karthik, about this, and he thought I was for sure exaggerating until you walked into my apartment door, but looked to the left at our kitchen and saw this man mid-pour.
00:09:50
Speaker
It was a very efficient meal in college, man. Got the calories in. remember when yesterday Devam sent in the group chat a meeting with Cholet and bread and i got really excited. I thought that was beans and bread. I thought the legacy is, you know, living on Devam started to get it. But I was disappointed. I'm sorry. I think this is, I think this is one legacy that will die with you. And the British, right? Yeah, they they still like doing that.
00:10:11
Speaker
So it'll be fun. Colonized. Tens of millions of people. And also, crazy fact is i have never seen Rishab in shorts to this day. I wish that day will come soon. I dream about it sometimes, actually. Wow. I well i will consider it, man. Funnily enough, I swam for so many years. So I've definitely worn. But I've never seen the
Debate's Role in Personal Growth and Society
00:10:30
Speaker
shorts for a time. I've never, yeah, I barely wear shorts.
00:10:34
Speaker
Always wear like Adidas joggers or jeans. oh The joggers. Probably a very handful amount of times over the past like eight, 10 years that we've known each other. Yeah. To be fair, we covered a lot of stuff that we make fun of you about.
00:10:46
Speaker
But outside of all that, like outside of all that, Rishabh is one of the funniest, not on purpose, I feel like involuntarily funny. Inadvertently. Inadvertently funny, but also like one of the most driven, one of the most passionate people, caring. And there's so many adjectives, bro.
00:11:04
Speaker
I'll take it. I appreciate that, man. So anyway, in the nutshell, we're excited to have you on. Pick your brain a little bit and have some cool conversations. Sounds good, man. Looking forward to it. Been following you all for a while now. It's been like, what, one well more more than a year now. And so honored to be on here finally.
00:11:18
Speaker
All right, boys, what's going on? Let's let's hear it. I am turning 26 this week, which means that I can't use my parents insurance anymore, which is kind of wild. Makes you realize that like you're getting old. And so yeah, is that stressing you out a little bit? You know, i have to like get my own insurance for the first time. It's like it's a process, you know, right? yeah I feel like I understood insurance a little bit. But now I actually have to like get into the weeds of it. Yeah, kind kind of a kind of a crazy thing. What about you all? Lazy Sunday. I honestly just slept in. i woke up at like 12 or something. I wasn't feeling too hot yesterday, so I was just getting some rest. How about you, Daewon?
00:11:49
Speaker
I'm good, man. I'm good. It's been really nice weather out here. So just been like being out more. Like yesterday, i went out and like kicked a ball around with a friend. That was amazing. We came back in and it started raining really hard, but it was like warm.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, it was amazing weather. I was just like blasting music, having a good time. Nice. I just feel like I'm at a point where like there's multiple things that I'm able to like pull joy from just set up around me. And so like, it's cool. Like it's just, it allows me to like live in flow a little bit more.
00:12:19
Speaker
It's cool to see like all that work that you put into building your life start to like pay off, help you get unstuck and like move along. Yeah. So yeah, it's, that's cool. It's like the crazy thing about all this is you put in all this work, all this reflection, all this setup, processing, whatever you need to do to like get to this point. And then you're at this point and it's like, oh, I feel happy.
00:12:41
Speaker
Great. But then, then it's like, oh, should I, what should I do? Should I analyze this? Should I sit with this? Like, what am I like? Should I figure out what is working? Then you have to remember like, no, the whole point is to just experience it and just, yeah just sit with that.
00:12:55
Speaker
And it's the thing about being present, right? The moment you start thinking about being present, you're not present anymore. So then it's like, yeah yeah, it's, I believe it's what they call Tao in Chinese, but yeah, we're not going to get into that.
00:13:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah, for sure. Yeah. we're We're so used to thinking about what's next that it's hard to just like, remember that being happy is like, it's fun being happy. You shouldn't think about like, think about it too much, at least for a bit. Yeah. I've definitely had those moments where I'm like present and then I start analyzing the fact that I'm present and I'm like, oh no. yeah and like i I start getting stressed about the fact that I'm analyzing it and I'm like, you need to stop. But then I can't. It's done already. Yeah. Yeah, literally.
00:13:40
Speaker
i can just imagine you're thinking about it because here's one of the more philosophical people I've been friends with. Like even throughout college and even high school, are you're always thinking about philosophical frameworks and like how to think about things.
00:13:50
Speaker
And I feel like i don't I don't think that deep enough. And then I hear someone just thinking about things and I'm like, maybe I'm not thinking about it enough so I can see like you're happy and you're just like, let's analyze why I'm happy. You know, what makes me happy? Yes, it's a serious problem, bro. These are not jokes. This is a cry for help.
00:14:09
Speaker
No, I get it. it's ah It's a blessing in disguise, but it can also have its content, I guess. yeah How do you feel? what what What goes through your head? When you're happy, or are you just happy or you think about why you're happy? Yeah, I probably... Analyze your happiness now for us.
00:14:22
Speaker
I'm probably like you two in a way too. Like I'll be happy for a bit, but then I'm like, all right, what's next? How can I continue this happiness? How can I continue this momentum? But then again, got to be in the present. So it's it's important. I get you.
00:14:34
Speaker
I get you. you know You know what I like, bro? Like I got this blanket. hear this is a blanket that you're bringing up. It has brought me so much joy. Like I don't think you understand. I used to wake up hot. So at night when I go to sleep, I want my blanket to be big and cozy and warm and heavy. yeah right But when I wake up, I'm always burning hot. This sounds like an infomercial.
00:14:58
Speaker
So I looked this up and everyone's like, you need to buy an Australian merino wool blanket and put a duvet cover on it. Bamboo sheets or some kind of nice duvet cover. Taking notes right now. And so that's what I did. I bought myself an Australian merino wool blanket.
00:15:14
Speaker
It has changed my life. It's the right amount of weight. It's breathable. It's warm. It can be 75 degrees, 80 degrees. And I'll wake up and I'm not burning hot. Wow.
00:15:25
Speaker
And I'll like wake up, there'll be a smile on my face. It'll be like, wow, I feel good. You have to, you have to make that. finally achieved happiness. This is what I needed in my life to be happy the whole time.
00:15:38
Speaker
Maybe if I had this blanket all along, this podcast wouldn't have happened. yeah I wouldn't have had depression. Yeah, exactly. That's a very high ah ROI purchase.
00:15:49
Speaker
you You guys, you guys have to make them your sponsor. No, first we need to partner with FDA. That's the first step. Of course, yes. We can give each other free publicity, no? Perfect, yes. Always welcome.
00:16:00
Speaker
So let's start with FDA. Yeah, like I have some questions about Fremont Debate Academy, not the Food and Drug Administration. Okay, Fremont Debate Academy. So this is an org you started maybe like 10, over 10 years ago now?
00:16:13
Speaker
Right. At this point, very briefly, like aim is to motivate kids to pursue debate, competition, communication, like all those things. And you've grown it so much like across school districts.
00:16:24
Speaker
What does it mean to you? Like, I feel like starting something like that, building it, putting in all that work is such a crazy, insane process. Like what is what does FDA mean to you and why have you done this? yeah On top of everything, you know, on top of college, on top of graduating, and then you work as a data scientist. That's not easy.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's kind of my baby, you know, I feel like I can't even think about a life without the organization now. It's just been so long. Maybe I can talk a little bit about kind of like why we started it way back in the day and then kind of like what the motivations are now.
00:16:56
Speaker
I had done debate in middle school starting in seventh grade and it was done at Warner or middle school that Ahir and I went to. And we had a teacher there that, Ms. Kane, who actually taught us debate and, you know, we went to tournaments and all of that. And I was really, really into it. And then we went to high school and did debate over there. You know, Ahir was in debate. was actually thinking David was in debate for a bit as well. Made a brief appearance.
00:17:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, you were good. Side character. And in 10th grade, um I was still helping out with a middle school debate team and had the realization that like, hey, we could like, you know, spread this to more schools, like no elementary schools have a debate program, you know, a bunch of other middle schools don't have a debate program, you can do something with this. And so I had a friend, Kirtana, who actually is good friends with all of us, her dad, um had been volunteering at Harvey Green Elementary, the local elementary school that my sister went to. And we me and him were talking about how maybe we could create like a debate program at Harvey Green Elementary School. And so we started it and I actually so kind of got three other co-founders, Rachid William Basuman, who were in Horner Debate and Irvington Debate with me. And I was good friends with them.
00:17:53
Speaker
And I was like, know, let's start this. you know, at that time, I don't even think we called it Fremont Debate Academy just yet, or we just had started in the middle or something like that. And then we we went and kind of created a program for 30 students. And it was it was a lot of fun.
00:18:04
Speaker
Parents loved it. Kids loved it. We really enjoyed it. We got a great volunteer team. And the next year we were like, let's start it at new schools. And we started at a few more schools. And then it kind of grew from there. And now obviously it's a much larger organization. our approach has changed. Our strategy has changed. And What we're doing has changed a little bit as well. But that that was kind of the motivation, honestly, that we just thought it was it would be cool to teach debate to younger students.
00:18:24
Speaker
And we saw the impact that debate had on us in terms of you know the ability to help us become better public speakers, leaders, you know, critical thinkers, thinking about the world. knowing more about the world, thinking how to research, thinking about how to, you know, argue respectfully, disagree with one each other respectfully, and how to teach others that I think would be good for the kids, even if they don't pursue debate like later on, you know, that wasn't really the end goal. And so yeah, that's kind of what motivated us to start it back in late 2014, 2015 ish. And now I think honestly, like I said, like, it's kind of my baby, you know i can't imagine a world without it. And
00:18:56
Speaker
It's just so, so cool to see a bunch of the kids that we teach, how they've grown. So many of the elementary school kids that I taught now like you know became like champion debaters. They became leaders. They're doing such amazing things, building nonprofits of their own that I kind of helped advise them on. You got into great colleges, get great jobs, all those things, and like really making it impact on society in their own way. And I feel like what they found through FDA and over the years doing the programs and eventually becoming leaders in the nonprofit themselves, even after they were students, and many of them do, I feel like played a small part in that.
00:19:26
Speaker
um And that keeps me going. So
Leadership and Nonprofit Management
00:19:28
Speaker
just kind of seeing that impact and seeing how much parents and kids and community members and stakeholders appreciate it. And just, you know, going and visiting the program every week and just seeing all the war hard work pay off. It never gets to old.
00:19:39
Speaker
So yeah. That's cool, man. I feel like it's so important. I don't know. It just builds confidence, right? Like more than anything, it's just like if you have a thought about something, how do you form it into a proper sentence, right? A proper phrase.
00:19:51
Speaker
and then And then the confidence to raise your hand, not raise your hand, just speak it out loud to other people. That I feel like kind of frees you. yeah Yeah, no, absolutely. It's hard to have confidence in yourself if you can't express yourself right and who you are.
00:20:04
Speaker
So... That's such a foundational skill. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just like debate that can do this. I think a lot of other mediums can do this, but debate, I think for sure can. I think it's like proven statistically and like so many great outcomes and all the studies that have been done on it. But I think more than all of that, which I think is all really important.
00:20:20
Speaker
It's what I said earlier, I think over the past couple of years has made me realize is that I think debate can teach you how to respectfully disagree with each other. And I think it's really important in this like polarized world we live in, you know,
00:20:31
Speaker
We're all, even us three on this call, like we we all have heated conversations when we're together about like random things that happen, but we all like really respectfully do it, you know? um And we like get where each other are coming from.
00:20:41
Speaker
And I think debate gives you a framework on how to think about that, how to not let your biases and like emotions creep in, which it does for all of us ah inevitably, but minimize that and just, you know, have logical points, see where each other is coming from.
00:20:53
Speaker
It's like, i think more important than ever. That is something that I think we think of as one of the biggest impacts, not so much about how they do competition or any of that. That's like a byproduct. And if it goes well, it goes well.
00:21:04
Speaker
But I think that this is this is one of the point of the big things. yeah Honestly, like I feel like just as important as it is to like know how to like express yourself and dish it out and all that stuff. Also, it teaches you like if you're wrong about something, if you haven't considered a point that someone else is making and maybe you're getting your emotions are getting in the way, it teaches you to accept that with grace. And it's like, OK, you know what?
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, you are. You do have a point there. Maybe haven't thought about this, like whatever. That skill is even more important because people don't know how to listen. Like that's, exactly sometimes people learn how to talk, but they don't know how to listen. That's like the worst problem. Yeah.
00:21:41
Speaker
Many such cases. Yeah. No, no, a hundred percent. and And we, we all do that, right? We all, we all like let our emotions take over, but it's really important. Like you said, they want to like accept that. I think that us also is something that debate can teach you and teaches you really quickly because when you're in debate rounds, right? Oftentimes what happens is that actually all the times you go to tournament, for example, or you go to like a practice round in FDA program, you're given a side. what the topic is. We want to increase the minimum wage. You're given a side. You're not, you don't get to choose what side you're given a side and you have to debate for things that are supporting something that you might not even believe in.
00:22:12
Speaker
And that actually teaches you how to understand the other side. You know, actually, ironically, though, on the other hand, debaters are also known not to be the best listeners. Right. because sometimes they can get so passionate about it. And so that's like something that we really try to instill in. gotta listen.
00:22:23
Speaker
You gotta, you gotta, know, make sure that you're, you're writing things down, taking your time to think and then think about a refutation or just like, you know, understand where they're coming from. And the best way you can do that is research beforehand. um So you, you kind of understand where they're coming from. That makes you a better debater, but it also makes you better listener. And people want to talk to you about things then.
00:22:39
Speaker
And it's not just, oh yeah, I'm going to go talk this person. It's gonna be like a big battle. And then if that happens, no one's learning anything out of it. So. Right. I guess there is a balance there where it's like some people get so obsessive about just winning the argument.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yes. Okay, bro. Like I'm also making a valid point. Just accept that too, you know? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all competition, right? Yes. Yes. No, that's fair. That's fair. but but But the skills important.
00:23:01
Speaker
Man, this is turning into like a fucking like how I built this podcast, bro. What the fuck? Yeah. I like that. You guys listen to that show, right? like i hear I know Rishabh, you definitely do. I definitely did, yeah.
00:23:12
Speaker
Definitely did. I haven't listened to it very recently, but it's such a great yeah podcast. and That guy, Guy Raz, he's just yeah such a great voice. Just just like you two. feel like you guys can... you guys You guys are getting there, you know? That's sweet, man. Maybe one we can as Icon.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah. You know, like, I feel like, let me restart. Was this whole thing ever just like a ploy to get into a good call? Because it's like, you know, like most things like, okay, nowadays, every kid has a fucking- you're actually calling him out for this, bro. Especially in high school. And it's not a bad thing. It's the world you live in. You have to stand out in some way. And maybe in the process, you make some impact. And I think that's a good thing, honestly, inevitably.
00:23:53
Speaker
but I'm just wondering if it was ever like that for you guys and for you personally. And and if it was, like maybe it changed along the way. like What happened? Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's it's a really good question. ah know It's kind of funny seeing all the nonprofits now. And so many of them, it's like created by many of our students. Or like we actually help them. like They ask us, like how do we create a nonprofit? How do we do this? And so it is kind of funny, but i think you you nailed it, Devam, in that it's not a bad thing in the end. It's kind of become me-ish in a way, but on the same hand, they're still making an impact, right? Regardless of what their extrinsic motivation was.
00:24:26
Speaker
But yeah, on on our motivation, I mean, I think, I don't think I had the initial idea or built it because of college ops. I think like I was just really passionate about it and I just really enjoyed leadership, bringing people together, making an impact.
00:24:37
Speaker
Then some volunteering at that school anyways. and And I thought it was like, it was really good. It was really fun. And and it was it was fun to do with with the group people that I enjoyed working with. But I can't say that like at some point in the process in the first like year, 11th, 12th grade, I wouldn't think about like, hey, one added benefit is that it's going to look good for college apps. And yeah you got to have multiple extrinsic motivations in anything you do. If I'm enjoying the process and making an impact and, you know, learning a lot and also it helps for college apps. Well, yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, but i don't think it was a sole purpose because if it was, then I probably wouldn't be still doing it because I don't really have any more apps to write anymore. So. yeah Well, yeah, of course. yeah
00:25:11
Speaker
I mean, the base, like you said, like the base motivation was you're enjoying the process. I mean, once that's there, then everything else is just a cherry on top, right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He actually started it for the club. No, that's good. That's key. I feel like what happens is a lot of people don't learn how to do that. And I know we've, we've like been talking about this in every episode somehow. But it's like, yeah, do shit because you like doing it, not because it'll look good on a fucking app yeah yeah or whatever it may be. You're not trying to get brownie points like it's a yeah like it's not a game.
00:25:41
Speaker
Like life isn't a game where you're just trying to achieve like the highest number of points, you know, karma or our farming, you know, it stop. oura farming yeah yeah Am I too old to use that term or a farming? No, I just learned about that term and it's so good, bro.
00:25:58
Speaker
yeah You just learned about it? Okay, then you're definitely too old to use aura farming. Fuck you. I like aura farming is a 2024, 2025 thing, right? It's not that old, no? Hey, man, times change fast. If you just learned about it in the last few weeks, like, no, you're be behind, and bro. Yeah. Man.
00:26:14
Speaker
When did you hear about it? Hey, man, you you got to stay on the meta, you know? Like, have you all heard of the Italian brain rot animals? Like, are you all on this wave? What? No, I'm not. What is this? Y'all haven't heard of Bombardilo Crocodilo and Tra-la-le-lo Tra-la-la.
00:26:30
Speaker
How do you know about this? What is this? And Brr-brr-patapim and Tun-Tun-Tun Sahur. Bro. How do you know about this? I'm going to change your life. These are all AI-generated animals that have become famous.
00:26:44
Speaker
They're not animals. They're like... They're like animal... They're like... I don't even know. they're They're not animals. They're like animal slash thing hybrids. which And people, there's so much lore around them.
00:26:57
Speaker
It's insane. Bombardillo or Crocodillo actually has roots in like commentary on the airstrikes in Palestine. What? Yeah, it's there's so much lore about each of these. like We could do a whole episodes on these.
00:27:11
Speaker
Okay, but I actually want to know, how do you know about this? I feel so out of touch. It's my algorithm that I've built brick by brick, okay? I've put in a lot of work into it, okay?
00:27:23
Speaker
Damn. it's it this is This is all the work that I was talking about earlier when we started the episode. like This is the setup that I've done with my life. This is what makes my life look so good. I can just enjoy it. Deep into Reddit and Twitter, you know? No, this is all Instagram.
00:27:41
Speaker
This is not Reddit. Reddit is saying compared all this shit. Yeah. But Reddit is not where the kids are anymore. You're already out of touch for suggesting Reddit, bro.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, there's these memes that are like people born between 92 and 99. They're like married, having kids, like going on vacations. Everyone between 99 and 2008 or 2005 or whatever is like, it's like these Italian brain rot animals.
00:28:09
Speaker
in two thousand And 2005 onwards, everyone's like in couples again and like in relationships, you know? like Wow. I hope the Italian brain rot animals will pass soon. It's not something that I'm particularly proud of. I was just memeing.
00:28:23
Speaker
It Audrey has a Wikipedia page, which is of a real big sign of how out of date we are, bro. So he wasn't making it up. Wow. You thought I just made all that shit up bro? What kind of imagination you think have?
00:28:37
Speaker
This guy is not that good at improv. Dude, he's actually very creative. You know we never know. well as I do want to do improv. I feel like that would that would be that's a good skill to have.
00:28:48
Speaker
Fuck debate. I feel like people should do more improv. Hey, debate teaches improv, bro. Debate teaches improv. It's a form of improv. hear it in Parley for four years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, this Wikipedia page was created on April 20th from what I can see. So it is very... Nabel made this before the episode. This is what I was doing on 420. I was just writing the Wikipedia.
00:29:10
Speaker
Actually, yeah, someone must have it. Bro got so high he invented Italian brain right on the walls. ah
00:29:19
Speaker
Anyways, guys, let's go back to the conversation. Yeah, why people are listening to us and not this bullshit. I know how much work it is to like start something. I've experienced a little bit of that. You know, I did the whole CYC thing, which by the way, guys, like Bishop is the reason I started CYC and UCLA. If you don't know, like CYC is a consulting club that I started with a few friends in, um, in college and we were like working with small businesses. It was a great time, but that was a lot of work, man. And I feel like you put in, you've put in way more work than I put in, into CYC.
00:29:50
Speaker
And it's like, i don't know about that. No, no, no. It's 100% true. Like I see you working on your org all the time, like sometimes skipping things, you know, like social things sometimes. Obviously, it comes from something intrinsic. You kind of touched on this. There must be something really gratifying about it. And it's really cool to like have something that you're so passionate about, right? Like I've always been fascinated and annoyed at you for skipping, hanging out with me sometimes and jealous of this thing. But like, what it what is that like? I'm sure you have some back and forth going on in your head about it. But what is that like? It's so it's cool that I feel you can care about something so deeply. Yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. You nailed it on the head. like there have been many times where I've had to sacrifice things socially, haven't hung out with friends, haven't gone on trips, you know, haven't done like random impromptu things because...
00:30:37
Speaker
I'll have a meeting for fda I'll have something I need to work on. Or like, because I'm working on FDA, it also means that like, I also have to balance and work with that. um so So it's it's tough. And, you know I'm like learning how to balance it more and more. But it's just like, I want to make sure that the organization does well.
00:30:51
Speaker
And sometimes because it's an organization in which like, no one's getting paid right now, or, you know, it's all volunteer based. We have a large team, but it's all volunteer based. It also means that like, you know, me and the rest of the founders, like we have to, have to pull through when others may not be able to, right? When like others have some other things going on in life or we're like relying on someone or some stakeholder to get something done, but then they can't because of So next situation, which makes total sense, right? No one's paying them for it. And so we have to pull through, which means that it's hard to do things impromptu.
00:31:17
Speaker
But we're working on it. We're working on potentially hiring someone, potentially scaling things up so that we can still be really involved, but we can choose when to be involved and play a bit more of a visionary role rather than being so involved day to day.
00:31:29
Speaker
I think we've been getting there slowly but surely. And it's a process that i think will take, you know, at least a year or two more to kind of fully figure out. But when we get there, we'll be kind of the best of both worlds. where we'll be able to still contribute to the organization, still play a visionary role, still lead things, still do everything that we love about it, but kind of step away from day to day.
00:31:45
Speaker
and And that's kind of what we're going for. And that that's what I have to remind myself. and Like in the meantime, I'm going to have to make sacrifices. In the long run, I think you'll all be worth it I'll have a better balance in life. So yeah, yeah, that's that's what goes on my mind when these things happen, I guess.
00:31:57
Speaker
That's cool. I mean, obviously, like throwing money at the problem will solve the problem sometimes. And in this case, it definitely will. yes But like what's interesting is like how you got to this point where you are the head of the org, right? The three other people that you have. But then you have other people that are you know supposed to do things. Sometimes they can't pull through.
00:32:15
Speaker
That means you have to do it. Right. Yes. That's just how it is. Exactly. And I mean, at the heart of it, it comes down to like people care about things to different degrees, right? Like you can be involved in something like FDA, but maybe you can't give up your weekends to work on it, right? Like maybe you can only give a few hours a week, whatever. yeah I feel like I used to get very, not used to, I keep saying used to. No, I get, sometimes I get very like frustrated, right? It's almost like if I care about something and someone else is supposed to do something and maybe they don't pull through, I get frustrated. I get petty.
00:32:47
Speaker
I get like, why are you not doing the thing, right? It makes me wonder like, why am I doing something? Why am I putting in so much? Like, why do I care about this? It's like, sort of what is wrong here, right? There's some kind of dissonance there. And I think part of it comes from a lack of clarity on like why you care about it.
00:33:04
Speaker
But I don't know. i'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. No, that's something that is is really important. and I was not very good at thinking about that or in the early years, at least. Right. I would be like, I'm putting all this effort. There's so many others in the organization. you know, they're really passionate about it. I know they've committed to something. Why did they not pull through or why did they not pull through in this instance? And then you start thinking about like, they get the same credit for it as I do maybe, but like they they didn't put the same amount effort. then I realized like, in the end, it's my organization. And so I don't like, there's no point thinking about credit, not credit. And think I've realized this over the past five years.
00:33:35
Speaker
It's really about like, what makes sense for the organization. But I think, I think more importantly, something I've realized is that especially in nonprofit setting, where we're all doing this in a volunteer basis, at least, It's really important to set expectations and communicate with the people you're working with.
00:33:49
Speaker
Whether that's like my co-founders or a large team, we have a team of like over 200 volunteers. Many of them are in leadership roles. Many of them are more just volunteers putting in 10, 15 hours, whatever the number is, over a course of a school year.
00:34:00
Speaker
It's really important to set expectations and make sure to communicate where they are with things, with organization. What is the time level? What is the time commitment they can put in? What can we expect from them in terms of how quick they are to respond?
00:34:11
Speaker
what type of things they can work on. And that way there's no feeling of guilt on anyone's side. Like, Hey, if they have set expectations and look today or this next couple of months, I'm really busy. There's other things going on in my life, right? Some other situation in my life going on with work or family, whatever it is, I'm not going to be able to put in the same amount of time I did the past few months.
00:34:28
Speaker
We know that. Right. And so we ask everyone to always communicate and make sure that happens. Cause otherwise then you go meet that person for some other thing that's going on. And then the inevitably they're going to feel guilty and be like,
00:34:39
Speaker
Oh yeah, sorry about that one thing I didn't do. Or sorry about like, you know, i haven't been responding well for the past of weeks. And I don't want that. Like I i really, that that's that's happened in the past. and And I really don't like that. And so I think we just ask everyone to communicate. it's really important to check in.
00:34:52
Speaker
Really important to set the right expectations so that there aren't any weird feelings like that. And honestly, I think that's been a big leadership learning for me over the past 10, 11 years I've been doing this. Like first five years, first six years, like I probably didn't do it as well. But over the time, I kind of learned that like, hey, it's important to be able to do that process. And that's made me a lot more content. Like if I'm putting more work disproportionately than someone else I expect to put in the equal amount of work, that's fine because we've talked about it. And there may be another time where it's all the other way around. And they'll be fine with too because we've talked about it and stuff like that. so That makes sense. i Communication.
00:35:23
Speaker
Super important. Yeah, that's the big one, isn't it? It's just like... Like, yeah, like if you don't communicate and then you don't deliver, it's like, God damn it, bro. Like, like, yeah, that that that's way worse. Because if you yeah if you communicate beforehand, we can figure out some solution. If it's like last minute, then it's like, wait, sir.
00:35:39
Speaker
And, you know, it's I think this situation is the most unique because if you like in a for profit setting, like if we all work in tech, there is this expectation getting paid, you know, and you have you got to do this, you know, and we're paying you for a reason.
00:35:51
Speaker
Or even in like a school project in a way, it's almost kind of like, you know you're getting a grade, you're getting a score in a way. Over here, everyone's doing it because they're passionate about it. There's no other reason why anyone needs to do it. I mean, yes, like the volunteers and the leaders, they'll look out on their college apps, right? Or yeah stuff like that. But in the end, they're not getting paid for it. You know, if they drop out one day, probably nothing's going to happen to them.
00:36:10
Speaker
um right If one of the volunteers or leaders who is going to do something, they drop out last minute. And so, you know, that's why it's really important to set those right expectations. Because I think it's a really unique situation, the kind of the setting that that we're working in. How about you
Balancing Passions and Personal Well-being
00:36:21
Speaker
all? How do you feel like you guys have changed in terms of like being able to deal with people dropping the ball when at work or any of the side projects you all work on, right?
00:36:28
Speaker
I think for me personally, like I've just grown to have a lot more perspective on things that might be going on in other people's lives. Just understanding that, hey, like just because I care about something so much, that doesn't mean that like another person does. And even if they do, maybe they care about it the same or even more. yeah There's other circumstances, right? In people's lives, people are dealing with all kinds of stuff.
00:36:49
Speaker
I've grown to like recognize that more. And so I don't let myself get carried away with those emotions like I used to. But also like recognizing that, yeah, like communication is important. Like that's the bare minimum. Otherwise, it's just really hard to like work with anyone. Right. Like because you you also have to look out for yourself, but you can't always make excuses for other people.
00:37:09
Speaker
A part of you dies, you know, every time. Exactly. Yeah. So that having that boundary is also important. The other thing is like, I've always been very good at delegating things. I've been always a master delegator. And I know where it comes from. It comes from my dad. It's so crazy.
00:37:25
Speaker
And I've recognized that now. The problem was I turned a lot of my like personal relationships into like that, where it's like, oh, we're like just delegating things like, oh, you do this, I'm doing that. And it's like, bro, like everyone has their life. Like you can't just tell people to do something. Yeah, yeah.
00:37:41
Speaker
yeah This is like a bit tangential, but every time I got close to someone, I saw them as part of my inner circle or as more a part of myself. And then so then I started then I would start treating them closer to how I treat myself.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah. If that makes sense. And then but for so many years, how I treated myself was not good. So yeah. It was just constant pushing myself, not being great friend, like, you know, you're like yelling at myself internally, like, no, you have to get this done. You have to go do this. What do you mean you're anxious? No, just go do the fucking thing. Like it has needs to be done, you know, like you're better than that. Like all this, all this, all this chatter. Right.
00:38:18
Speaker
And so, I mean, I would still treat other people better than I treated myself, but I realized that was why I was doing that. Yeah. I was very driven, but there was a lack of empathy or a lack of Or I was not approaching it in the right way, I feel like. And that affected, sometimes it affected my personal relationships.
00:38:35
Speaker
And that's changed where I feel like am way better about that now, where I don't let that happen. And honestly, the only reason I can do that now is because I've worked on my inner voice so much that I just understand what that's like.
00:38:49
Speaker
and so It's a very beautiful self-reflection. but What about you here? um I mean, I feel like I pretty much agree with everything you guys have been saying. Like, I think communication is really the biggest thing. When there's that emotional aspect on both sides that can make communication and effective communication hard.
00:39:03
Speaker
It could be that I'm not going to be able to hit a deadline or I'm not going to be able to deliver on something I could. And my own guilt and emotional response can make it difficult for me to communicate sometimes. And so I feel like I've gotten much better about being open and being honest about the situation and communicating when I have expectations for other people, too.
00:39:20
Speaker
And I definitely agree with what you said, Devon, about where I'm just like a strong believer that how we treat ourselves, we necessarily sort of reflect that onto the people who are close to us. Obviously, it's not one to one.
00:39:32
Speaker
um I feel the same way where I treat myself worse than the people around me. But yeah, pretty much just completely in agreement with you guys. It's interesting because I feel like I used to have a lot more drive and I would find myself in a lot of leadership roles, but I don't think I was a great leader. But I feel like now I would be a way better leader. But the drive is completely gone. Like I don't I don't like the idea of being a head of an org or like a CEO or something like of a startup. It doesn't appeal to me anymore the same way ah used to. And that's been an interesting shift as well. I mean, I will say you're probably giving yourself less credit than you deserve in this in the sense that I feel like CYC UCLA, I was actually just in a conversation last week with someone who's like sibling is going to UCLA or friends are going to UCLA. And they were like, yeah, man, CYC UCLA is like the biggest consulting club is one of the most popular clubs on campus. And like everyone wants to get into it. And I was like, yeah, that yeah that was my friend who created it. And and the thing is like really grown and has a really great structure around it.
00:40:28
Speaker
And so like that speaks volumes about your delegation and The vision you set, it's like unique because it has the healthcare consulting and all of those things. And so like, and it doesn't feel like it's one of those other, like any other normal consulting club that's like really intense in nature or anything like that. People have a good time, but also like, you know, make a good impact.
00:40:42
Speaker
If something lasts for what's been almost six, seven years now, it was probably really well done. So yeah. Oh, fair enough. um yeah I do have an update for you though. Yes. Have you heard the news?
00:40:53
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not sure. CYC UCLA has rebranded. They're no longer part of CYC. Really? Okay. Because, I'm not throwing any shade. Disclaimer.
00:41:04
Speaker
The current leadership decided that they wanted to work with, you know, like bigger companies for, um, yeah very that and, changed their, um,
00:41:15
Speaker
and so they kind of changed their um path and i feel like i understand i was young too like i mean i'm still young but i was younger and you know like the it's nice to have the check and the shiny company on your resume and the and the cool um patagonia and the nice retreat with the yacht and everything i get it i get it it's cool yeah yeah yeah no i don't blame them i don't blame them it was a good one um but But yeah, I mean, I'm glad that it lasted as long as it did.
00:41:45
Speaker
And it was a good run in that form. And obviously, like some things have changed on the outside, but it's still the same org. So it's cool. no It's cool. Yeah, for sure. For sure. No, and I think you have a very calm demeanor.
00:41:56
Speaker
You know how to speak with people, you know how to like talk to people, make them feel good about themselves. And I feel like that's what leadership's about. So I think you did that really well. I appreciate that, man. yeah So I guess pivoting back to fda and just the trajectory and the path that you took there, I definitely understand what you're saying about how you got into that and like just that passion and how that carried you through just seeing the impact and like help that you could give to all of these school districts and to all of these students who got access to like a debate program through you. How did you go from that to branching out to other states and especially other countries?
00:42:29
Speaker
Because I feel like that takes a level of ambition and that takes, yeah, like I guess like what was the thought process for you getting to that? Yeah, I think to answer that, I'll probably have to go a little bit more into like the weeds of how the organization works. So first couple of years, it was just like how we had discussed, which was we had a bunch of us high school volunteers.
00:42:46
Speaker
And then, you know, a few of us were in college, but like it's still big high school volunteer team, just going and running programs in Fremont. And like every year we would add a few more programs and it was going great, ah you know, and students would become volunteers and volunteers, you know, become leaders and and all of this. And then when they go into college, it some of them would still help out and all of that. It was great.
00:43:02
Speaker
and then actually like closer to the pandemic time, I think a year before the pandemic, a year or two, we started thinking about how we can run programs elsewhere. We had done some work in India before and and a few other places, but we started thinking about how we can do that more scalably.
00:43:16
Speaker
And so we started basically finding other high schoolers that, you know are quite driven in other states and such to run their own programs. And we would support them with their with our curriculum, with all the support, logistics and someone to support them and kind of guide them. So then we can create kind of FDA chapters across everywhere.
00:43:33
Speaker
And so so that that's been still going on. A lot of our you know programs in different states and countries, that's that's how it works. And we have a whole outreach team and programs team that does that. I think most recently, past couple of years, especially past five years, we've been working and partnering more with districts. And I think that's really changed the trajectory of the organization.
00:43:51
Speaker
So what that means is that it will work with districts to actually train a lot of their school teachers to run their own programs, either with our help, some cases like locally or in other cases um with the help of their kind of support system, recruit volunteers and stuff like that to help run their programs.
00:44:05
Speaker
We did that a lot with like Broward County in Florida. We did some stuff with Hayward as well here locally and a couple other areas. I think ah the biggest one is actually in Fremont where past two years we've kind of had a contract with the school district.
00:44:18
Speaker
They pay us an amount for us training all their teachers to run these programs. And then we kind of help a lot with, you know, volunteer coordination, you know, developments of development of high school and college alumni volunteers for them to become leaders.
00:44:32
Speaker
but And, you know, they kind of in the teachers and the high schoolers run the programs together. And the college people are doing a lot of the behind the scenes work as well as a lot of the high school people are doing be the behind the scenes work. And so we've kind of tried to replicate that with different districts as well.
00:44:45
Speaker
We can talk about where we are with that right later on, but that's kind of the model we've used to kind of grow outside of Fremont, if that makes sense. Got you. And does that do you feel like ah like your passion and your engagement has changed as like the character of the work changes?
00:44:59
Speaker
Since you're obviously like a lot less directly involved in these like outreach programs and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I'm more passionate than ever, actually. Like, you know, over time, the impact really accumulates, right? And you can see the the fruits of the labor, um so to speak.
00:45:12
Speaker
but Just the other day, i was at a program. it was like the last session. You have like a showcase session. And we were having like the high school leads and the teacher running the program were like passing out certificates. And usually it's just like you pass out the certificates after like the showcase debates.
00:45:26
Speaker
We say some closing remarks and like say what's next. And then the program's done. Right. Eight week session program done. But then this time around, a parent came up. I've never seen this before. A parent came up and was like, hey, I want to say something.
00:45:38
Speaker
And she just talks about how both of our kids over the years have been part of the FDA program for many, many years, have done many sessions and how much it's changed their lives. It's been really great kind of seeing them and how great of experience they've had working with the organization and all the volunteers and leaders and the school teachers working with us.
00:45:53
Speaker
And like I feel like moments like that are like, wow, okay. yeah ah you know this is this this This really this really is awesome. And I feel like the quality of our programs have also improved, right? And you can only do that if put in more effort and put in more time and put in more quality time as well and more strategic time. So,
00:46:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. no That impact is cool, man. The idea of having a parent come up to you and be like, what you've done has changed the trajectory of my kids' lives. Like that's, that's so cool. yeah Yeah. It's, it's nice to hear. It's really nice to hear. And honestly, the parents are really great too. They're so supportive. They've helped us in so many ways, getting the district contract or working with schools to get programs there. I mean, parents, parents are pretty awesome.
00:46:29
Speaker
So yeah they really want what's best for their, their kids. And I think they believe that a debate can really help with that. So, yeah. Impact is cool, man. I feel like that's always kind of been at the core of like anything that I've done.
00:46:40
Speaker
But that's the reason I work at the job that I do currently. Like, that's the reason we're doing this podcast. Like, that's the reason you're doing FDA. Like, I feel like that having that as a core driver is so valuable.
00:46:52
Speaker
Totally. Yeah, I think it keeps you really fulfilled. And, you know, if you if you can't get that from work, then you can get it from something like FDA for me personally or vice versa. Right. um Like, and and it can be also like different stages.
00:47:04
Speaker
where at some point I'm feeling like I feel like i'm making more impact or just feeling a lot more fulfilled from work. Sometimes I can feel like I'm feeling fulfilled from FDA. um And and that that really helps me.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah. I wonder if we've talked about this before, but it reminds me of like the concept of Ikigai. Basically, their belief is like what you do in life to have a fulfilling life should be like kind of at the center of three things, which is one is like it has to make an impact in the world.
00:47:31
Speaker
Like it has to create some kind of value for for for the world, right? yeah The second one is it has to help you support yourself and your family. And then the third thing is it has to give you fulfillment, right? Like you have to feel passionate about it. Most people in their jobs don't get all three.
00:47:50
Speaker
It's just in the society we live in, it's hard to do that. You have to be very, very lucky to get all those three things from one thing. So if you find yourself like missing that, you need to create something in your life that helps you fill in all these three things.
00:48:03
Speaker
Absolutely. No. And I think creating those things for you is really important. I've noticed in my life that when something bad happens, I feel like something good follows in in short due time. And it's happened a lot. I've noticed that like since probably college, I'll get rejected from an internship and then something will happen in FDA I'm like, oh, really excited about.
00:48:22
Speaker
Or yeah something happens, some some bad thing happens in FDA. we we We couldn't secure this partnership with some district because of some you know reason, but then something great happens at work. I almost kind of think about it like when we think about like a stock market, we think about like diversifying our portfolio, right?
00:48:37
Speaker
I kind of almost think of this as like diversifying your source of happiness. and And what I mean by that is personally, what's really helped me, you know you talked about like balancing work and FDA and social life and all that.
00:48:48
Speaker
Personally, what's really helped me is, you know, I know that work is always going to be a big part of my life, right? i think it's a big part of all of our lives. We spend probably the plurality of our waking hours thinking about work or doing work, right? Whether we like it or not, that's true.
00:48:59
Speaker
Me having the opportunity to work on something like FDA that is productive, but it's productive in its own ways. And I feel a lot of fulfillment from that means that if things aren't going well with one facet of my life, there's a good chance that just with random odds, that there is going to be something good happening in another part of my life.
00:49:16
Speaker
And that's always been true for me. When I look at like weeks at a time, if something's bad going at work, something, I can find something good at FDA and feel really fulfilled and happy and vice versa. If not, then I can feel like something at work where I've really helped someone or I've really built like a cool project or a cool model or something like that. and feel like it's making an impact on organization and and for what what the organization is trying to do, even if FDA is not going so well. And I think that's that's been really helpful for my own kind of personal mental health and just like personal sanity as well.
00:49:42
Speaker
Yeah, that is cool. It's like having multiple things going on at the same time where if one thing is not is stuck or not going well or terrible and you can like focus. A lot of it is just like what you divert your energy towards. Right. Like yeah if you have one thing and it's going shit, your whole life is going to be. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like single point failure.
00:50:03
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. yeah And then, and and I think you can really be optimistic. I think optimism is really important. yeah I feel like you can be very optimistic if you have something to look forward to in some facet of your life.
00:50:15
Speaker
But it's very often that like sometimes at work, you just have like two bad things and go happen in a day and you're like, yeah I have nothing to look forward to. yeah ah And so now I'm like, hey, no, to look forward to something really cool happening on FD on Wednesday. And vice versa. And so I think just being optimistic just that keeps you happier. It keeps you going. And I think that that's really helped me personally. Yeah.
00:50:34
Speaker
But it also it also comes with trade-offs, it which just means that like you have less time to just like chill out. Right. um ah But that's the that's the good way to look at it. Yeah. Yeah. yeah I mean, your your second thing doesn't have to be a national organization. Yeah. But it can be something smaller than that. but Yeah. good You can do something chill. Absolutely. It can be a hobby, you know? You're going and playing the next league, right? And like, you know, just like really look forward to that. You're like looking forward to working with your teammate, coming up with a new strategy to win the game, whatever it is, you know? As long as you have something else, like other things just besides work.
00:51:09
Speaker
It can be a lot of the way stuff. No, I definitely struggle with that. There was a big period of time where like I only had work going on and I didn't really have anything else in the side. And when that was bad, my whole life was just like a complete mess.
00:51:21
Speaker
And I mean, there are many reasons for that. I didn't have anything going on. I didn't know how to deal with all that stuff, like a pressure from work, being burnt out, like all that kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. It's like something to think about when you find yourself in that hole.
00:51:34
Speaker
But the thing you have to keep in mind, think that what I've realized also is that make sure you don't get into the whole of thinking about opportunity costs too much. So what I mean by that is like, okay, like if I put 50, 60 hours at work, maybe 50 hours at work, right? Okay, good number. I think most people work around that much you're working in tech or something like that.
00:51:50
Speaker
If I'm putting 20 hours a week on FDA, I could put those 20 hours a week into work and probably get promoted faster or, you know, like, you know, deliver something faster, whatever the outcome is at work that I want. But i have to be okay with, hey, I cannot ah go all in into one thing because there is a benefit to just going, putting as many hours on one thing as possible.
00:52:08
Speaker
There is a trade-off and i have to be okay with that trade-off. And we all have to be okay with that trade-off if we're going to have like hobbies and other things that we work on apart from work. Yeah. It's hard for me to sometimes accept the fact that I have to have make trade-offs in my life, that I have like a finite amount of hours.
00:52:22
Speaker
And it's just like you're saying, when you know if you put in that extra time into one thing, and you can almost put expectations for yourself that are unrealistic about, oh, I'll just do everything like perfectly.
00:52:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's very important to keep stay grounded and keep perspective on the fact that it's sort of inevitable. If I'm taking up one thing, something else is going to slip. And that's not like an issue or I mean that there's a problem with what I'm doing. That's just, yeah, life. Yeah. And in a way that's what keeps life interesting.
00:52:48
Speaker
so I know you're very active with younger kids and stuff. Inevitably, I feel like there's going to be like people in high school, people in college listening to this. We talked a lot about the benefits of debate and, you know, nonprofit and all this stuff. But i kind of wanted to touch on kind of the dark side.
00:53:05
Speaker
yeah You can disagree with me. You can have your own take. But I want to bring it up. A lot of kids end up doing something like debate or DECA or whatever because they feel like they have to.
00:53:16
Speaker
Yeah. It's just like a thing they have to do. And they kind of like. slogging their way through it. It's like, oh shit, I have to do this. I have to get good at debate. I have to like get it on my app and they're like burning themselves out. They're doing like 5 million things.
00:53:30
Speaker
Maybe like they realize, okay, maybe debate is cool. Maybe they learned a couple of things, but maybe it's not for them, but they're still like slogging away. I just wanted to address that. It's not a one size fits all kind of deal. Like not everyone has to become a leader in debate and, you know, excel at that kind of stuff.
00:53:47
Speaker
So if you find yourself kind of in that position, like it's important to take a step back and really acknowledge where you're at and maybe you got what you needed out of this and maybe it's time for something different. Yeah, yeah. and That's a tough one. That's a tough one, man. um I, you know, we have so many people, so many volunteers and leaders in the organization who like start off, you know, super passionate, super into it, take on different roles. There'll be a elementary school lead, middle school lead, director, VP, all these roles that we have.
00:54:14
Speaker
and And I think you can see them learning and growing and they want to do more. But at a certain point, maybe they'll be like, you know, at the end of the year, when we start thinking about next year's roles and cycles, you know, promotions, so to speak, ah they'll they'll just be like, look, like, I think I want to change what I'm doing in FDA.
00:54:30
Speaker
Or i think i'm going to take a break for a year because I want to go and pursue this other passion I have or try this other thing. And like, we want to be supportive of that. I think as a leader, I first will always try to be like, is there something NFDA that you can do that, you know, you can still contribute to the organization, but you don't have to, you don't enjoy the current role. Can we change things up?
00:54:47
Speaker
But if not, like, look, that's best for you. And if you're ever free to help out, we'd love that. Keep in touch. And if we can ever kind of help you pursue, you know, whatever you're trying to do next, or, you know, you just want to reflect and think about what's next, please use us as a sounding board.
00:55:00
Speaker
and it's really important for everyone to like figure out their own passion. and We have a bunch of people who are our students and they're high school volunteers and then they're the college team and then eventually like they get busy with like internship recruiting and stuff like that and like they need to focus on that and so they're going to take a step back in FDA and like we we want to be there to help them out just because you know they've done a lot for the organization and we care about them and many times they're like kind of our friends now but you know everyone should go try to figure out like what's best for them and that's really important yeah I completely agree with everything you're saying.
00:55:26
Speaker
I think i was talking about something a little bit different where I'm talking about like, let's say the kid who's just joined debate a year ago, right? And they're like trying to get good at debate, but really they're only doing it because they feel like they have to.
00:55:41
Speaker
I see. i see I see. And maybe it's like pressure from parents. Maybe it's pressure, just peer pressure, like feeling behind from your other peers, your classmates, whatever it might be, right? Like stress about college. You find yourself in an environment where you're doing it because you think you have to and you're not really enjoying the process at all. Like what do you have to say to someone like that?
00:56:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. i mean, you think it depends on the age level too, right? Like our programs will be like elementary, middle schoolers, but even taking a step back from like our programs, like in high school, let's say like you have a bit more autonomy, right? In elementary school, like you'll do something because your parents tell you to and like gotta do it. Sure. In high school, like you have your own autonomy a little bit. You can choose kind of what to do.
00:56:18
Speaker
Maybe your parents have pushed you. Maybe you think that all your friends are doing something and so you have to do it. and I would say like, it's it's really good if you're not sure what you want to do in life to try things out, like at the high school level, right? It's like, like i you know, Devamaya, I think you did you did debate for a bit.
00:56:34
Speaker
um It was your senior year and you just come from India like a couple months back. So it's little different, right? But you did debate for a bit. I don't know if like by the end of it, if you thought it was for you or not, right? But like there'll be people like ninth graders joining debate and they do debate for a bit, then they end up not liking it. But at least they've given themselves a chance, right?
00:56:50
Speaker
And also like, you should be clear about why you may not like it. Like, are you not liking it because one or two tournaments you did bad? i mean, I hear like me and you know how many tournaments do well we didn't do that well in, right? Are you not liking it because of that? Are you not liking it because of another reason? Like, can you try to solve those things?
00:57:04
Speaker
And to be very clear in your mind so that you don't feel like you have any regrets, but then you also have kind of, you know, given your best effort. But then, you know, of course, give yourself the time to find other things that you might you might be liking.
00:57:15
Speaker
It's really important for kids to explore. And that does put a lot of pressure because then you always have to like do this new extracurricular and all of that. It's just, it's important to find something that you're passionate about that you enjoy doing. And you cannot do that unless you give yourself enough exposure.
00:57:26
Speaker
yeah And it doesn't have to be through a club. It doesn't have to be through like a nonprofit. It can be through just like reading something on your own, you know, figuring that out for yourself, you know, um going and like speaking with people, but you you got to give yourself that. Otherwise it's really difficult. Yeah.
00:57:40
Speaker
That's fair. What you're saying is basically take a chance on something, commit to it for a set period of time,
Challenges in Organizational Culture and Growth
00:57:46
Speaker
right? like Exactly. yeah A month, six months, a year, whatever. And then at the end of that, reflect and decide whether it's for you or not and move on to other things.
00:57:56
Speaker
Exactly. but But give it the chance. Don't stay in this gray state where it's just like, oh, I have to do this. I hate this. I'm doing this. I hate this. You know, limbo. yeah Yeah. It's really easy to just be like, oh, yeah, like I've been told that I should not do anything that I don't like even slightly or like that stresses me out slightly. Like, just don't do it. No, like you you have to put yourself in a slightly uncomfortable situation.
00:58:17
Speaker
And actually doing that sometimes might make you like that activity more. Just a certain amount. There's a balance. There's a balance. You've got to do all of that. So, yeah. Obviously, as the organization has grown, there's more responsibility for you in terms of your actions and the impact your actions can have. So I'm thinking about both in terms of what the organization does, but also internally, the way you set the culture, the way you set the atmosphere and how people feel. So what sorts of challenges have you run into with that?
00:58:42
Speaker
And like, was there anything about that responsibility that you didn't expect that you sort of struggled to like manage and like take care of when it came up? Yeah, no, culture is like really important. You know, run a large organization, like you don't want people to think it's too toxic or that their ideas are not being heard yeah or that like everyone working, like everyone they work with, like don doesn't like them.
00:59:02
Speaker
i think really strong communication really helps having personal conversations with people that you feel maybe are struggling in the organization. Like they're just not carrying their weight or they're just not doing a great of a job on the role they assigned to.
00:59:16
Speaker
And speaking with them personally, not like trying to publicly yeah kind of, you know, um you know, ridicule them or whatever the right word is. um Speaking to them personally about like, look, here's what we're observing. But here are some of the great things that we see and you have potential in as well. Like, let's work together on um doing that.
00:59:32
Speaker
I think a lot of those personal conversations really help building the culture of like recognition when someone even does like a small win is really great as well. me Right. Like, you know, saying like, look, like I think you did a really great job and like, and share that no matter how small that win is.
00:59:46
Speaker
Cause that makes people are really happy and feel, feels like they look, they're doing this for a reason. And, you know, just like the the whole idea is that like everyone coming into FDA, one one thing we've said in the beginning is everyone in FDA should feel like they're getting something out of it.
01:00:00
Speaker
They should not be doing it just for college apps or not just be doing it to get volunteer hours or like the presidential volunteer service award that we're like a certifying organization for anything like that. They should be doing it because maybe some of that, but also also because they feel like they're going to get something out of it, which means that they can kind join our network and alumni network and you know have people who are mentors.
01:00:20
Speaker
they feel like they can learn something from teaching better or working on logistics or working on like social media or whatever it is, they should feel like they've learned something out of it in the many years they're going to be part of FDA as a team member.
01:00:31
Speaker
yeah And if not, then, you know, have a conversation with us about how we can change that. i think that's really important. so you know, it's not easy to scale when the organization grows because, you know, every company says that, ah like, hey, we want you to grow in this company, you know, we want you to join a team that like you love, you know, it's not as easy as that, yeah but you got to do that the best way you can.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah. When you talk about having those conversations, obviously they're very important, but a lot of times I feel like it's difficult for people to bring those things up themselves. Like, have you ever run into situations where as a leader, like you had to take more of an active role, like speaking up for other people around you?
01:01:03
Speaker
Like speaking up for someone who isn't doing well or is doing well? Yeah. So for someone who's not doing well, like maybe it's hard for them to communicate to you that they're having troubles or that they're struggling with something.
01:01:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, oftentimes, like, especially with like the high school volunteers, not so much with the college team, they're still maturing, you know, like they're still learning things. They don't even know sometimes that they're they may not be doing a great job. yeah And we have like structures of teams of people overseeing them, right? It's not just like me, for example. And so you know Those people will communicate kind of how performance is going with with their team. And then and then you know they'll they'll kind of figure out, and sometimes like I'll be looped in as well, about like what's the strategy? like How are we going to speak with this individual? yeah you know And speak to them and and not make them feel like they're in a corner and they're doing a bad job and like we're going to remove them as a lead of the school. No. like
01:01:48
Speaker
Look, we here's what we've observed. Here's what you're doing great. ah can you Can you try doing this? Or can you can you let us know when you feel like you might be getting stuck here? Having like a good structure in place for having that communication is it really important.
01:01:59
Speaker
without making it too official or too scary. Again, it's a nonprofit. It's not like a job that's paying you like, you know, X hundred thousand dollars whatever it is. yeah Everyone's doing it because they're passionate about it or for free, you know? yeah And so you youve got got to make sure it's not too intense, but also like the quality is good.
01:02:15
Speaker
So, yeah. Got you. Do you feel like that structure was pretty like natural and easy to build up as the organization scaled? Or do you feel like that was something where, yeah, like did you run into any obstacles with that?
01:02:26
Speaker
No, no, of course, not easy at all. In the beginning, it was a lot like more free-for-all. I was like, so for everything, me and the other co-founders. But no, I think like over time, we've learned where structures make sense or don't make sense.
01:02:38
Speaker
And we have to keep adapting and iterating, 100%. Yeah, it's it's definitely it's definitely a process. Also, like kind of to both of your points, like people changed, and like young people have changed, right? yeah yeah how they communicate the professionalism with which they communicate the expectations of like what they know with technology and all of that have changed and so you kind of have to adapt to that like now yeah i'm turning 26 this week i'm working with oftentimes like high schoolers sometimes you know and teenagers and like the world has really changed and so their attention spans are different some of them are really professional do they have tiktok brain is that what you're trying to
01:03:13
Speaker
You're talking we about Italian brain rot animals. we all We all have short attention spans, but you know like this young generation like grew up with phones since they were they were kids. you know we we We didn't have phones until we were 13, 14 or something like that. It's just different. It's like not even their fault. and so We have to like understand that generation.
01:03:31
Speaker
Which is not easy. That's been a struggle. we We do whatever we can to do that. And also, like Devon was saying, everything's become so competitive these days. And so suddenly now what's happened is that high schoolers and even the college team, they would have a lot of time to work on FDA.
01:03:43
Speaker
The average person would have a lot of time. And like, it was a cool cooper opportunity. Now there's like a million opportunities they all do. They all have like 10 internships. They all do like 10 research opportunities. Whether they're super legit or not, you know, that's fine. The high schoolers in the end, but they all have a lot going on. So we have to like adapt our structure around that as well and make sure that like the people that are really going to put in a lot of effort that are really into it, we really work with them and the others, like we, we, we, we kind of design a structure so that it makes sense.
01:04:09
Speaker
And, you know, it doesn't put too much on one person. Um, and so that flexibility and adaptation is like really important. Yeah. yeah Give us an example of an unexpected challenge adapting to the youth. I mean, in general, just like professionalism is like important.
01:04:22
Speaker
Yeah. I don't even know actually like if the youth are more professional or less professional than us. Like I go back to some of my emails I wrote. Yeah. I'll give a funny story. In like 6th or 7th grade, was really into cricket.
01:04:34
Speaker
And playing baseball because it was like a local baseball league in Long Springs. And I really wanted to play cricket. i was like really into that sport. And i found like a local cricket league. And, you know, like classic me, like I went and like did all the research about it a sixth grader. And then emailed the director of the cricket league, some adult and youth cricket league. And I was like, hey, I would be interested in joining this team.
01:04:55
Speaker
Please get to me ASAP. ah I didn't know how to write an email. Did you mark the email as important? Yeah. And then, I mean, they responded really kindly and I actually joined that cricket league and it was great. I did it for a couple of years and really enjoyed it.
01:05:12
Speaker
But I don't know if the younger people, younger younger kind of youth would do that. I think a lot of them actually know how to write emails a little better. sometimes Sometimes they're not as professional, but sometimes in many ways, they just have a little bit more like little bit more eloquent and like you know they know a little bit more of like email standards and professionalism.
01:05:28
Speaker
Even like in high school, I feel like i sometimes at some of the emails I write, I'm like, what am what am I saying? You sure that's not just like chat GPT? true true no this is like pre-chatchability too even like 2021 2022 like i feel like yeah again i can say some people are more professional but some people are just like they don't even know the basics it's kind of mix you know i'm still like wrapping my mind around what exactly is happening you'll never figure it out i probably won't i probably won't i think and i think that's kind of the point like yeah it's gonna keep changing yeah You always have a diverse array of people and skill sets. and ah and And every generation changes you know with skill sets and their strengths and weaknesses. So that's how
Balancing Life and Organizational Commitments
01:06:07
Speaker
it's supposed to be.
01:06:07
Speaker
Otherwise, it's kind of boring. Yeah. yeah Is there, Risha, is there anything that's left in your brain to be picked on? I don't think so. I feel like we talked a lot, the organization. like I have one more question, which is just like, across the board, what do you think the most challenging thing about running the organization has been?
01:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's just trade-offs, man. We've talked a lot about it today. I spent time on FDA, which means that like I can't hang out with friends. I got to say no to things. Can't go to impromptu trips. I can't join you both in things. I've done that many times.
01:06:37
Speaker
you know I probably can't really, at least until we figured out like a hiring strategy or anything, if I wanted to, probably I'm not going to be able to move a city, move to a different city. I think we talked about that last year. Because like you know I want to be here where where things are. That's important for me right now.
01:06:50
Speaker
Even if I wanted to. right And so, yeah, just like balancing that is like really tough. um And just being okay with the fact. But sometimes, if work is really stressful, like FBA is actually going to have to take...
01:07:02
Speaker
The backseat, because like, you know, my job is important. I get paid for it and I i need to i need to make a living. And, you know, we're not paying ah you're paying ourselves an FD right now or anything like that. And just being okay with that. um And then I think one thing that's like really helped me is thinking about in any situation, the worst case scenario, the base case scenario and the best case scenario.
01:07:22
Speaker
like just planning weekly and monthly and being like, here's what's going to happen in my life at work, my social life and FDA. And here's the worst that can happen. Here's the base case.
01:07:33
Speaker
Here's the best case. And for each of these things and kind of planning that on a weekly, monthly, even daily basis, sometimes when I wake up and that way I'm just prepared for when things don't go well and I'm able to bounce back quicker.
01:07:45
Speaker
ah It's a skill I think I've developed a lot over the years and and you know I'm going to have to keep developing it, but it's important. Actually, what you just said, I started doing that too, where if something is giving me a lot of anxiety, like some conversation, like like a heavy conversation or like a performance review or what whatever it might be, like like just mapping out the worst case and just being at peace with it. It really takes a lot of that power out of it that it has over you.
01:08:09
Speaker
Absolutely. that That's a really cool skill to have. It keeps you happier when things go slightly better than the worst case. It's a very good grounding technique to make sure that like you also don't blow it out of proportion in your mind. And it's just like,
01:08:22
Speaker
okay, I know what the worst case is. If it happens, going to happen. And I know that I'm not going to die. like My life's not going to end. And mentally, what's your strategy if the worst case happens?
01:08:33
Speaker
And how are you going to deal with it? Which, you know, you may not always have the answer to. It's easier said than done. ah But at least, like, you kind of start preparing your mind for it.
Real-world Skills and Content Outreach
01:08:41
Speaker
And your mind kind of does some some wonders in the background while whatever event or conversation or whatever project you're working on, whatever it is.
01:08:49
Speaker
I wish they, um I wish they taught us this in school, bro. Like there's so many, there's so much, there's so many holes we could avoided, bro. Like so remember the cheating scandal. Oh no.
01:09:02
Speaker
Anyways, I feel like, we should wrap up but yeah this is great conversation hopefully i feel like we've gained some high school listeners question yeah um true richard's minions you know um but you know about italian brain rot animals yeah and True, yeah. They were probably attracted even like even younger than high schoolers. What they italian are you trying to say, bro? Why is that phrasing, bro? You're scratching that.
01:09:38
Speaker
but But regardless of how old you are, we're happy to have you as a listener. Please go follow us. yeah Hit the follow button on Spotify or Apple Music. and We need a TikTok page, bro.
01:09:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Also, if any of you want an internship for marketing. Social media manager. Yeah. Free free internship. Free marketing internship. Oh, there's there's a lot of people would want that. Unpaid. Yeah. But cool branding. You have to pay us.
01:10:06
Speaker
I feel like we have a pretty cool brand. If you want to help us grow it, please yeah reach out. Have you seen our logo? We do have a cool brand. Yeah, we do have a pretty good brand. I strongly recommend. Strongly recommend. yeah You guys are doing great work and like really really really enjoyed listening. i ah Just actually the other day, I was like at the gym. Usually I'll listen to podcasts, how I built this, all in, whatever it is. yeah And I actually like re-listened to some of your guys' episodes. And just listening to the second time, actually, sometimes it's kind of cool. like You start to like think like, oh, I've listened to this before. I listened to this theme that you guys are talking about.
01:10:41
Speaker
Listening to it again makes you you know think about it differently. So yeah, you guys are guys are doing great work. And I think like everyone I speak to is always talking about how it's really cool you're doing this. And I really, really appreciate how deep you guys are able to get. Just be creative with that as well and just be really vulnerable, which is like not easy to do. so Yeah, guys are killing it.
01:10:58
Speaker
Appreciate you, boss, man. I actually listened to some of the episodes again as well. It's kind of wild like to go back and be like, oh, that's what I said. That's great. I like don't even remember most of the conversation. I haven't listened back yet.
01:11:10
Speaker
I feel like, I don't know. i like i know't I definitely want to at one point. I feel like for me, it's kind of, don't know. Does it ever feel weird to you like listening back to like the earlier episodes and seeing like your perspective then?
01:11:24
Speaker
No. I guess it's just a me thing. I mean, it might be different, but that's the point we're growing, right? Yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah. and I mean, sorry i'm sorry sorry to leave you hanging like that. but no No, It's good. It's good. I mean, I know sometimes I just like go back and like read things that I've written or I've said and I'm just like, yeah damn, if I really was that guy. Yeah.
01:11:47
Speaker
Like in a bad way or in a good way? I mean, it's more like a kind of like, you know, when you listen to your own voice recorded and it feels kind of weird, like the fact that it's you, but it doesn't really feel like you anymore. Just like in that way. It's like a different you.
01:11:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah your your Your voice always sounds... weirder to you yourself right because like you because you're not listening to yourself externally for sure and also also yeah like you start becoming really critical of yourselves um yeah and like you know i'm probably gonna listen to this and think that i spoke too fast uh i promise you that's not the problem everyone i talk to tells me that they listen to me specifically on 2x because i just talk way too slow i definitely do that i i was the other day i was listening to the show in slow motion
01:12:34
Speaker
I was listening to one of the episodes and there was on 2x and then Ahira was talking for a bit and I had to go back to No,
01:12:43
Speaker
nobody but it's good to speak slower. i feel like, um you know, you can articulate every word more carefully. Be careful what you say. And worst case with these days, someone can just listen to you in 2x, you know?