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Hulk Vs.
189 Plays5 years ago
For our first animated movie, we’ve decided to look at the long lost and mostly forgotten Hulk Vs! Consisting of two short movies—Hulk vs Thor and Hulk vs Wolverine—we talk about how actors have colored our perceptions of certain characters, Marvel vs DC, Ang Lee’s Hulk, and…oh yeah, somewhere in there we also mention the film we’re supposed to be talking about at least once.
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Transcript
00:00:18
Speaker
Oh, no.
Introduction of Co-hosts
00:01:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I am half of your host, Perry Constantine.
00:01:12
Speaker
And I am the distinguished other half, Derek Ferguson. The more distinguished other half. How you doing today, Derek? Oh, pretty good, pretty good. How have you been doing? I'm doing all right. Since last got together. Yeah, not that long ago. I'm doing pretty good. What was
Frank Miller's Works: The Dark Knight Returns and Beyond
00:01:28
Speaker
it I was doing? Oh, Comixology has another one of their graphic novel sales, so I've been, you know, spending it. Oh, please don't tell me.
00:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, I've been spending my retirement money on that. You know what? We've said this before. I believe I've probably said this before. But the thing about them is that their sales are so darn good, you feel almost bad for not taking advantage of it. You know what? I actually picked up the Frank Miller sequels to The Dark Knight Returns. That's how good the sales were that I picked those things up.
00:02:02
Speaker
Oh wow, okay. And you know, so I reread them and Dark Knight Strikes Again. I still don't know what drugs Frank Miller was on when he was creating that thing because that's just like total insanity. It's like the colors are insane and the artwork looks ridiculous and you've got like
00:02:21
Speaker
There's one issue where like half the issue is Superman and Wonder Woman having sex and causing natural disasters all over the world. And then Dick Grayson turns out to be like an undead joker kind of it. It was just like Lex Luthor is like some kingpin like figure. Like literally he looks like the kingpin. I don't know what the hell he was thinking when he wrote that. I am how convinced. And I heard that this was a rumor going back to when he did All Star Batman. Yeah.
00:02:50
Speaker
with the infamous, I'm the goddamn Batman, that Frank Miller didn't want to do it, but they kept throwing so much money at him, he finally said, hell, I'm going to do it. But he deliberately set out to write a story so bad, he was convinced that it was going to cancel the book. Yeah, see, I've heard that too. But then he also did that Holy Terror book, which was like this ridiculous
00:03:14
Speaker
like Islamophobic post-9-11 thing he did.
Holy Terror and Collaboration with Brian Azarello
00:03:18
Speaker
Well, that originally started out as a Batman story, right? Right, yeah. It was originally called Holy Terror Batman, and then DC's like, no fucking way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:31
Speaker
Some part of me wants to believe that he's just playing a monstrous practical joke and I like to think that he's just gathering up all of this money and he's sitting and he's cracking up because he's saying, I can't believe that they're publishing this shit. But then again, at the, on the other hand, I would say to myself, you know, some, is it really worth destroying your legacy and your reputation for the sake of just a practical joke?
00:03:55
Speaker
Well, you know, here's the thing, because after I read Dark Knight Strikes Again, I read the newer sequels. There's The Last Crusade, which is actually set before The Dark Knight Returns. It's like the last story of Jason Todd. And also The Master Race, which is what he did. That was like the third sequel to Dark Knight Returns, or the second sequel, I guess, the third book in the series.
00:04:20
Speaker
The thing is, I don't know, because Brian Azarello co-wrote those with him, and I don't know if it's Azarello tempering him or what, or if it's just because there are artists who are actually competent, which Miller's Art is no longer competent, but I mean, you had John Romita Jr. did The Last Crusade, and I think it was Adam Coobert did The Master Race, and both of those were actually pretty good.
00:04:47
Speaker
Hmm, okay. Well, you know what? Well, maybe Frank Miller just needs a writer. Yeah, I think that's what it is. Like, he needs someone who's going to be writing off his plots. Because, I don't know. Because Azarello was able to still kind of capture the feel of what the Dark Knight Returns felt like. And also, same thing with the art, and Kubert's art, and Romita, especially Romita's art. Because Romita's art is very similar to, like, Miller's classic style.
00:05:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so I so I enjoyed them and and I picked up some other stuff like there's some Marvel stuff I picked up as well some other DC stuff like I I got like all the Cassandra Cain back girl stuff So I'm gonna go back and reread those now And also going back to Frank Miller. I also think that part of
00:05:30
Speaker
his, you know, client is that he's one of these people that started believing his own press. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, all of the things that people were saying about him, he, you know, he just like bought into it, lock, stock and barrel. And he said, Oh, okay. Well, I am a God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I think that's got a lot to do with it. You know,
00:05:49
Speaker
Claremont went through a little bit of that too. I remember when he came back to the X-Men and it was just like totally phoned in crap. And then eventually he got to a point where he was producing some good stuff, but it took like a good like five years of producing crap to get there. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I mean, you know, when you have people every day, you know, telling you that you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, you know, I guess after a while you do come to think, yeah, you know what? I am the greatest thing since sliced bread. Right.
00:06:19
Speaker
I mean, but hey, it is what it is, I guess. Yeah. So that's what I've been up to. Just been squandering my money on comics. Yeah. I hear you. I've just been, I've been, because of course, you know, uh, Star Wars day was, you know, the fourth.
Derek's Star Wars Tradition
00:06:40
Speaker
Oh yeah. May the fourth be with you. Yeah. So what I've been doing is I've been rewatching
00:06:45
Speaker
as I do every year. I rewatch the Star Wars movies, one every night. So that's what I've been doing. And finally, thanks to Disney, because I had seen the first two seasons, but for some reason I never finished watching the rest of it. I'm finally catching up with the Clone Wars now. How is it? So far it's pretty good. I like it.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, listen, it's Star Wars. I'm one of those people that, you know, I, I saw Star Wars in 1977 in the theater when, you know, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have anything. So, so we went into that movie absolutely cold. Nobody knew what it was about. And I have heard people talk about having a religious epiphany. And even though I've never had one, I would say that the first time I saw Star Wars is the closest I've come to it. Okay.
00:07:39
Speaker
So I love Star Wars, even the movies that everybody hates. I still love them because of Star Wars. So you'll never hear me say anything bad about Star Wars. Yeah, I know what that's like. I mean, I'm kind of like that with the X-Men stuff. So yeah, I get that. Yeah.
00:07:56
Speaker
Um, so today we're talking about, uh, your pick, which was, um,
Marvel's Animated Features and Distribution Challenges
00:08:01
Speaker
Hulk versus. And this was, uh, back in the early 2000s, Marvel did, like, a string. They partnered with, um, I think it was Madhouse Studios and Lionsgate. And they did a bunch of these, like, direct-to-video animated features. Like, they had
00:08:14
Speaker
Hulk verses, they had Doctor Strange, they did Invincible Iron Man, Ultimate Avengers, they did a whole bunch of these. And they also did like a bunch of anime series, like they had an Iron Man series, an X-Men series, Wolverine, Blade, and each of those were like six episodes a piece.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did a whole ton of this stuff. I found this, because I had seen this years ago on Netflix, and it's not on Netflix anymore. So, folks, if you want to see this, you can go on Amazon Prime. Because, okay, here's the funny thing. First of all, I went on Disney Plus because I figured, okay, well, it's Marvel, so of course it'll be on Disney Plus. I felt the same thing, yeah.
00:08:56
Speaker
No, it's not a Disney Plus, which I said, well, wait a minute. They got everything else on it. I mean, I'm going by. They've got, you know, the Fantastic Four cartoons and all the Spider-Man cartoons. And, you know, they got everything else. And I said, wait a minute. You've got everything else except for Hulk versus? Yeah, there's a few things that are missing. And I think it's pretty much all this Madhouse stuff. So I guess there's still a rights issue with probably with Lionsgate, I'm guessing, because they distributed it.
00:09:23
Speaker
That's what I thought, too. I said, you know something, it's got to have something to do with Lionsgate.
00:09:27
Speaker
Because I noticed they didn't have any of the anime stuff on there. Well, except they've got the newer anime stuff, like there's the Future Avengers or whatever, that show that's on there. But other than that, like the other stuff, I didn't see any of the anime that Madhouse did back in the early 2000s. I didn't see Spectacular Spider-Man, which is, for my money, the best Spider-Man cartoon that they've made. I didn't see, what is it called?
00:09:56
Speaker
I'm blanking on the oh like pretty much any of the any of the manhouse and stuff like Ultimate Avengers that's not on there. None of that. You're right ultimate, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So that's where I finally said, okay Well, you know what? Let me go to Amazon Prime cuz Amazon Prime's got everything and sure enough They had an ordeal. Yes. So was it part of the subscription with Amazon Prime?
Hulk Versus: Storylines and Comic References
00:10:19
Speaker
Uh, no, I had to rent it. Yeah. I had to do the same thing with, uh, I went over to iTunes cause I got an Apple TV. So I rented it off iTunes. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's what I figured. I figured I said, well, usually it'll come cause you know, uh, we have Amazon prime. So usually I get lucky and you know, I get it when I happen to pay anything extra, but you know, listen, it's only four bucks, you know, and you know,
00:10:21
Speaker
Oh
00:10:43
Speaker
What the hell? Yeah, same thing, yeah. Yeah, it's no big deal. See what we do for you folks? I was about to say the exact same thing. You know, we go ahead and spend our harder money for this, but you know, but hey, listen, it's a superhero movie. So you really don't have to twist my arm a whole lot in order to get to watch superhero movie anyway. So yeah, same here. Um, so let's get into it. So this is, uh, this is actually, it's calling it one movie is kind of a misnomer cause it's actually like two short films that are jammed together.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's two completely separate stories. One is of course with the Hulk versus Thor. That's the actual name. And then the other one is a Hulk versus Wolverine. And yeah, I think like the Thor one, even though they say, even though the Thor one is longer, it feels shorter than the Wolverine one. The Wolverine one is like 30.
00:11:36
Speaker
five minutes and the Thor story is like 45 minutes or something like that. I think part of the reason is because the Thor story feels much more straightforward. The Wolverine story got a little bit more complicated because they threw in like the Weapon X stuff with it. Yeah, see that's my thing with that because to me it's a Wolverine story guest starring the Hulk.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, it was kind of a weird choice, especially because I don't know about the Thor one, but the Wolverine one, it was supposed to be based on Wolverine's original appearance, where he fought the Hulk and the Wendigo was involved as well. And it was just like a one-issue story. It was like a very short segment, but they expanded it to include all this Weapon X coming back and kidnapping Wolverine and the Hulk again and all that kind of stuff.
00:12:26
Speaker
because there's a nice little good bit of that story where you don't see the Hulk at all. The Hulk is gone and the story instruction is such a way that instead of you saying, okay, well, what happened to the Hulk? What happened to the Hulk? You're actually surprised when he shows up again in the story because you forgot about him because then we go into Wolverine's origin. We go into Weapon X and the crazy professor and we get, whereas in
00:12:55
Speaker
uh, Thor versus Hulk, the resolution of the story actually does depend on the Hulk and Bruce Banner. Right, right. You know, yeah. Okay. But, but in, but in the other one, nah, it's like, you know, as I said, the Hulk has dropped into a Wolverine story basically.
00:13:12
Speaker
Yeah, and it's kind of a weird choice. Also, there's a connection to another show because Craig Kyle and Chris Yost, they were doing the writing for this, for these two segments, and they also were developers on Wolverine and the X-Men, which was an animated series, an only short-lived animated series. It came out just before Disney bought Marvel and
00:13:34
Speaker
Like all the stuff that was being produced outside of Disney at that time, as far as like animated shows, like it all got canceled as soon as Disney acquired Marvel. And Wolverine and the X-Men was one of those casualties, but it's an amazing series. It's on Disney+. This is one of the ones that you can find there. So yeah, I definitely recommend checking it out. But this Wolverine and the Hulk, Hulk versus Wolverine, it is actually kind of a prequel to that series.
00:14:05
Speaker
Oh, okay. All right. Well, then that explains a lot then. Yeah. Cause you do see in that show, like there's some weapon X stuff that crops up again. There's an episode where the Hulk appears again and they kind of reference this movie in it as well. Oh, okay. Okay. Well then in that case, yeah, that, okay. That, that explains a whole lot about this story that, you know, not that, not that it's a bad story, but you know, like I said,
00:14:32
Speaker
it feels like a Wolverine story. And as you said, the Hulk versus Thor is a lot more straightforward. Yeah, exactly. You know, we don't get a lot of bells and whistles with that story. It's pretty much, you know, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Whereas with the Wolverine, like I said, we go into these little side little thing. Cause, cause after a while, um, okay. Weapon X, like,
00:14:57
Speaker
they even forget about the Hulk themselves because they want to kill Wolverine. Yeah, like the Bruce Banner is he's being held captive. He's like in a tube somewhere else in the facility. And like there's a good chunk of that movie where it's just like Wolverine talking with the old Weapon X guys.
00:15:12
Speaker
Right yeah like he has a scene with Deadpool and then saber-toothed and Lady Deathstrike try to kill him he has a talk with that yeah there's a there's a nice little chunk in there where we have no idea where Bruce Banner and the Hulk is at all. Yeah so yeah it is kind of it is it does feel like a Wolverine story that was just kinda like retrofitted to include the Hulk.
00:15:36
Speaker
Now with, so I know the Wolverine stuff. I know that's based on a comic book, but what about the Thor stuff? Cause you're a bigger Thor guy than me. You've read like, you got like the whole run of stuff. So what is this, was this based on any particular Thor story that you can remember? You know what? I watched it today and while I watched it today, and I wish I had my Thor collection with me because a lot of my comics, you know, especially my old, cause I have a lot of the, you know, the Kirby Thor's.
00:16:06
Speaker
but I don't have them here. And I wish I could go into the boxes and dig it out because I could almost swear that this is like a story that was based on something that happened during the
00:16:18
Speaker
late 60s, early 70s, the Hulk invading Asgard is a storyline that I'm, you know what? It's at the tip of my brain where I could almost like see the panels that was drawn. I'm not going to swear to it. And if anybody out there can help me with this, please, I appreciate this. But I'm pretty sure that there was some kind of storyline during the Kirby era with, that had the Hulk invading Asgard. Because this whole plot,
00:16:47
Speaker
feels feels very much like something from that era with what with Loki kidnapping briefs, but okay, we should say first that this
00:17:00
Speaker
story starts out with you assuming you know everything you need to know for the Hulk, Odin, Loki, because they don't explain it, except for a little bit at the beginning where they explained the Odin sleep. Odin, once a year, presumably around Christmas time, I don't know, who knows, he falls into the Odin sleep. And when he does, all of the evil forces of Asgard,
00:17:25
Speaker
try to try to take over Asgard and try to kill him while he's in his bed sleeping. And of course Thor and the Warriors 3 and the Valkyries and Sif and the armies of Asgard are all protecting Odin. Okay, Loki gets the bright idea to bring Bruce Banner to Asgard, get him mad, turn him into the Hulk,
00:17:48
Speaker
And then using the power of the Enchantress, who I may say is drawn very well. Oh, yeah. You know, she extracts using her magic power. She extracts Bruce Banner and the Hulk and splits them into two separate beings. Right. Then Loki takes over the Hulk and sends him
00:18:12
Speaker
to kill Thor, one, and two, to kill Odin and take over Asgard. So that's the plot in a nutshell. Yeah, basically. And then there's also something with, they're able to restore him, but it turns out Banner's soul is actually trapped in hell with Hela. So then there's this whole thing with Hela they have to do. Well, yeah. Well, Loki makes the mistake of killing Bruce Banner. He gets like, okay, well, I don't need you anymore. I have the Hulk.
00:18:38
Speaker
But as the Enchantress tells him, listen, you can't control him. You know, you keep on making him mad, he's gonna break the enchantment. And Loki, as Loki does, he goes too far. And the Hulk is still rampaging through Asgard, and they have no control over them. And yeah, they have to go to the realm of the dead, and they have to talk to Hela and say, listen, you gotta give us his soul, Bruce Banner's soul, to put back in the Hulk, because they can't send the Hulk back.
Voice Acting in Hulk Versus
00:19:07
Speaker
Right. To Earth without Bruce Banner's soul. So if you don't go, he's just going to stay there tearing up Asgard. And one name I was surprised to see in the credits was Graham McTavish, voices Loki. And he's been a bunch of different movies, but he was also most memorably recently, he was the Saint of Killers in the Preacher TV series.
00:19:32
Speaker
Oh, okay. See, I never watched that book. Most of these names were like unfamiliar to me, you know, so I didn't, I didn't recognize any of them. Yeah. He was in a preacher. He was also in the last season of Lucifer and oh, he was in it. He was an Aquaman. He played a King Atlan. Oh, okay. That I know. Okay.
00:19:52
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah, he's got a lot of voice work. So it was kind of interesting to see, I saw his name in the credits. I'm like, oh man, I recognize that name. And it's like right away, I looked it up on IMDB. And yeah, he's been in all this other stuff. And Fred Tatasiori, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. He does the voice of the Hulk, and he's done the voice of the Hulk in a lot of different stuff. Like, I think he was in Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes. He did like a lot of the Hulk stuff in the video game. So yeah, he's been kind of a regular.
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah, his yeah, his name was only one I did recognize because he doesn't do a lot of voice work because I've seen his voice in other animated things He's like one of these people I guess that they call every time they you know, like there's some voices that you see this all the time You say okay. I know that guy. I know that girl. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, but as for everybody else I you know, I said, okay. Well, I don't know any of these people
00:20:42
Speaker
Well, there are two others I recognize. There was Steve Blum. He did Wolverine. And he also did the voice of Wolverine and Wolverine and the X-Men. And then Nolan North, he's done like a ton of voice work. And he's like always, he's been like the Deadpool voice. Like before Ryan Reynolds came along, he's like the voice everybody associated with Deadpool.
00:21:04
Speaker
Okay, but that did but had Deadpool bit it a lot of animated stuff before this Well, he had a there was a Deadpool video game there. He had a few different appearances in video games and Nolan North. Oh And he'd done some other stuff I think he did some checking his
00:21:23
Speaker
credits right now you know these voice actors man they've got they do so much work I mean they're oh yeah yeah it's unbelievable like I'm looking I was looking at one of them and it was like you know 20 credits that was just like one year alone I'm like Jesus yeah I mean these voice work people they which which you know
00:21:43
Speaker
You know, I've heard them say like a lot of times that they actually prefer doing this than the like straight acting because you know They don't have to get dressed up. There's no makeup They just go in and then they do the end and your name gets around so I guess you know They're always in demand and they're always working, you know You always see their name when I when Tom DJ and I were doing better in the dark It was a running gag
00:22:07
Speaker
that I was doing, because I was saying that, you know, Andrea Romano, I believe that she must have killed off every other voice director in Hollywood, because hers was the only name I would ever see. Oh, yeah. She had to make the movies with her voice director, Andrea Romano. I said, what did she do? Did she kill off all the other voice directors in Hollywood? I tell you, man, Andrea Romano's a gangster. I don't want to meet her in a dark alley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't care what animated movie voice direction. Andrea Romano. I said, oh, OK.
00:22:37
Speaker
All right You go girl you get yours If you're going in voice direction, you might want to consider another career because she's gonna come for you. Yeah, exactly. She's got that shit locked down Don't mess with Andrea, but but listen, she does good work. Oh, she's amazing I mean like she's the one who's responsible for like Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill is Batman and the Joker. So yeah, yeah, I mean the boy I mean hmm unlike this
00:23:05
Speaker
thing. And don't get me wrong, I am not knocking any of the talented people that worked on here, but like none of them, I really associated their voices like with the cat, like, okay, Volstagg. You know, every time, okay, Volstagg ideally sound like Brian Blessed. Okay. And the voice that they had
00:23:28
Speaker
The guy that did the voice here was just like, I don't know, it was too light, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because Vostag is a big, big bombastic guy, so he should have a big bombastic voice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and the guy that did Thor, well, you know, I'm spoiled now because, you know, every time I see Thor, I expect to hear Chris Hemsworth.
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's the same thing with me and Professor X. Every time I see Professor X now, because I grew up with the X-Men animated series, so I associated that voice with him for so long. But then Patrick Stewart came along, and now I always associate Patrick Stewart. Right, go with you.
00:24:03
Speaker
The same thing with Iron Man especially. Every time I watch an animated Iron Man thing, I'm always annoyed by the voice actor because it's always like someone trying to do a Robert Downey Jr impression. Exactly. They're trying to do Robert Downey Jr and nobody can do Robert Downey Jr. sometimes.
00:24:21
Speaker
I mean, that was my biggest sticking point for a long time with Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes, because it's a great series. Don't get me wrong, I love it. It's probably the best Avengers outside of the movie that you'll find. But the guy who did Iron Man, just, he was obvious. Because this show came out after the Iron Man movie, the first one. So he was obviously trying to do a downy impression, and just could not nail it at all.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny how your mind works like that because it's like, okay, if I read a Batman comic now, I hear Kevin Conroy's voice. Oh yes. All the time. You know, I don't, you know, I don't even hear Michael Keaton's anymore, which I used to hear. Right.
00:25:03
Speaker
But once I started watching Batman the Animated Series and, you know, Kevin, that's what I hear now. So it's got to it's gotten to the point that I can't watch Batman animated if it's not Kevin Conroy. It just doesn't it don't sound right. Yeah.
00:25:18
Speaker
Because, you know, we talked before about the Batman animated series, and I had that kind of issue with it, where it's like, I didn't mind the difference in animation styles. In fact, there's a connection here. Jeff Matsuda, who was, he used to be an artist in comics, and then he went into animation. Like, he did a bunch of X-Factor stuff at the end of that title's run. But he did the character designs for the Wolverine segment.
00:25:43
Speaker
Okay, and he also did the character designs for the Batman like that was based on his art style Hmm, but I had that kind of same thing when I was when I started watching that show because it was I think Reno Romano was the was the voice of Batman in that and it's just such a Different choice from Kevin Conroy that it did kept it took me out of the series and it made it difficult to watch just because of that Yeah, yeah, I mean I think um I
00:26:15
Speaker
Okay, know who else is good? He's not as good as Kevin Conroy, but I could take him, Bruce Greenwood, because he's done Batman in a couple of days. Yeah, he was year one, right? He was in year one, and I believe he did Gotham by Gaslight. You know who else was really good was... Oh, crap, crap, what's his name? The guy who played Robocop, the first Robocop. Peter Weller, I think? Yeah, Peter Weller. He did the voice in The Dark Knight Returns, and he was amazing.
00:26:43
Speaker
Okay Yeah, I don't know if you ever saw the dark knight returns Animated movie, but but you know, I haven't seen it yet. I figured that sooner later. We'll get around to it Yeah, that that's definitely worth the watch and yeah, Peter Weller does the voice of him at that and he's perfect as an old Batman and who was um Dietrich Bader Did the voice of Batman in the brave and the bold? Oh, right, right TV and and he was good because he was doing
00:27:14
Speaker
OK, his voice performance was Kevin Conroy without doing an exact imitation of Kevin Conroy. Right. And he's got that deep resonant voice, so he could pull it off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. So yeah. But yeah, some of the voice work in this, like, Graham McTavish, who I mentioned before, he did the voice of Loki. He's good, but again, it's like a voice that I don't associate with Loki anymore because of, what's his name?
00:27:44
Speaker
I'm blanking on the guy's name. Guy who plays in the movie. Oh, yeah. I know, yeah. I'm blanking on his name, too. The guy from the movies. Right. Hiddleston. Yes, Tom Hiddleston. Thank you. Yes. Tom Hiddleston. Yeah. Yeah. I so associate Tom Hiddleston with Loki now that when I hear a voice that's different, because Graham McTavish has kind of like this deep, bassy voice. And I don't associate that with Loki at all.
00:28:10
Speaker
Right. Yeah. That's, that's a large part of the problem. Like I said, I mean, you know, with this, because the voices I didn't associate, I mean, you know, with the characters, even Deadpool who, okay.
00:28:24
Speaker
I don't care much for the character, but now I'm used to Ryan Reynolds. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't have that big of a disassociation with Deadpool because I'd seen Nolan North do it a lot. Like that was the voice I associated with Deadpool before Ryan Reynolds came along. So that was kind of like going back, but it was a little bit of a, it was a little disjointed at first. I will admit that. Okay.
00:28:49
Speaker
And once again, folks, don't get us wrong. You know what, these extraordinary, talented people, and they do excellent work in here, is just that, you know, I guess, you know, like I said, you get spoiled by hearing what you consider to be the perfect voice for a certain character. And then when you hear another voice, it's just like, well, that don't sound like, you know, so and so. And you're too much aware of it, you know, so.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah, and that was the thing with a lot of these, because our perception has been so colored by the interpretations from the movies now, like Chris Hemsworth as Thor, and Chris Evans as Captain America, and Hiddleston as Loki, Reynolds as Deadpool. All these have really colored our perception. So when I hear Thor in these animated stuff that came out before Thor Ragnarok, it's the comic book Thor, who's kind of a different character than Hemsworth's take on him.
00:29:44
Speaker
you know yeah Hemsworth's take is he's a little bit more he's a little bit goofier he's a little bit he's got a little bit more um I guess a little bit more heart he feels a little bit more of like uh he's got a little bit more of a personality than the comic book Thor whereas the comic book Thor is very like um larger than life Shakespearean type of thing you're right yeah the Hemsworth Thor is like uh he's got a little bit more humility right you know he's more well he's more humble well like you say the comic book Thor is like you know Shakespearean and
00:30:13
Speaker
You know, he, you know, stands around making speeches and, you know, he's calling down thunder and, and doing all of these godly things and stuff like that. But, you know, the Hemsworth Thor is, you know, much more of a likable down to earth guy, despite him being, you know, the God of thunder.
00:30:31
Speaker
Right, yeah, that's a good way of putting it. If you had those two speeches, I could see Hemsworth Thor making them, but he would be making them in a half-serious way, whereas the comic book Thor would be completely serious about it.
00:30:49
Speaker
Right, right. But you know what? It works for the character in the movie because then when he does stuff that I see as being thrown from the comics, like when he actually has to harness the power of a star to make a new hammer.
00:31:05
Speaker
in uh what was the guardians of the galaxy that was in uh infinity war infinity war yeah where you know he's harnessing the power of a star to make a new ham i said now see that's some kirby thor shit oh yeah yeah and then he and then he hits himself in the head with the ball and ragged a rock
00:31:25
Speaker
Well, yeah. Well, there you go. Well, see, now we're back. OK, that's Hemsworth. That's the Goofy. Who has a definite talent for comedy? I mean, I would never have expected after, you know, the first few times I've seen him that he would be to I'd never expect him to be such a funny guy. But then I saw him in Ghostbusters and then in Thor Ragnarok. Oh, my God. He was hilarious. Oh, yeah. Oh, Ghostbusters. The thing with the glasses.
00:31:55
Speaker
Oh, God. Patricia hit me in the rim. She said, will you stop laughing? I said, it's so stupid. Him and Kate McKinnon. I don't care what anybody says, but I love that movie just for the two of them. Yeah. Yeah. Kate McKinnon. Who should be the new Doctor Who, as far as I'm concerned? You know what? I never would have considered that. But yeah, that'd be a definite good choice. Yeah, because in that movie, she struck me to be very much like a Time Lord.
00:32:25
Speaker
You know what? Screw it. I just say put Kate McKinnon in everything. Oh, put her. Yeah. Yeah. Put her in there. You know that they say that they're making a Tiger King movie with Nicolas Cage. Which is the perfect choice. I mean, Jesus Christ, you can't get much more bastion than saying the Nicolas Cage. But I have heard that they're trying to get Kate McKinnon
00:32:45
Speaker
to play the woman, Carol Baskin. Oh my God. Okay. If anyone who's involved with that Tiger King movie is listening, then you got to put Kate McKinnon in that thing. Man, can you imagine the two of them to forget about
Pet Court and Tiger King Movie Casting
00:33:00
Speaker
it? You know what? You also got to find a role for Gary Busey then too.
00:33:07
Speaker
Did you see that shit? They got something like he's doing a pet court or something now. Like, what the hell is going on in the world? You know, I saw it. And, you know, normally I would say, oh, man, you know, that's a shame, how far he's fallen, everything like that. But it's just another day for Gary Busey. So, you know. After he was on The Apprentice, that was it. It was all downhill from there. Oh, Lord, that thing was batshit insane, you know.
00:33:34
Speaker
Oh. OK, so getting back to the movie we were supposed to be talking about. Yeah, we've got so far a feel is not funny. OK. Yeah, so if anyone's doing a drinking game to this show, and if you take a drink every time we go off topic, you're probably calling an ambulance for alcohol poisoning by this point. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. So OK, so getting back to it. OK, so now we, OK, so going back to Hulk versus
Thor and Loki's Adventure in Hulk Versus
00:34:00
Speaker
Thor. OK, so we're on Asgard, and the Hulk is tearing shit up.
00:34:04
Speaker
And of course, as always happens in these things, Thor and Loki have to team up together to go get his soul back. And that's when we find out that, okay, Bruce Banner's soul isn't exactly in hell. It's in some sort of afterlife where he's married to, you know, Betty Ross and they have a child. And it's the life he's always wanted to live.
00:34:32
Speaker
However, he's got to be convinced to come back and rejoin with the Hulk in order that they can send the Hulk back to Earth and have him stop tearing up, which they make a good point in this that
00:34:48
Speaker
they postulated in the comic books on more than one occasion in that it's necessary for Bruce Banner to be part of the Hulk because he is keeping him in check in some kind of way. And if there was no Bruce Banner in the Hulk subconscious to kind of keep him up under control, he could conceivably destroy the planet. Right, right. Because he would never calm down. He would just keep getting madder and madder and madder. Yeah.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, and I think they did, they did a few, because there was a period, I think it was after Onslaught when, because they had the Heroes Were Born stuff, where the Avengers and the Fantastic Four were in kind of this pocket universe type thing. And during Onslaught, Bruce Banner followed the Avengers in to like sacrifice himself, but the Hulk was left behind. They'd gotten separated. So the Hulk was still on Earth, but he didn't have Bruce Banner as part of him.
00:35:42
Speaker
And I think that John Byrne did a storyline one time where they actually did separate Bruce Banner from the Hulk and Bruce Banner. He led the Hulk Busters. He was like Professor X. He was separated from the Hulk, but he couldn't walk. Yeah, they've done a few stories like that. There was another one that Jason Aaron was the most recent one to do it. He did one a few years ago. And it was interesting because Bruce Banner and that one, it was a reverse take because
00:36:09
Speaker
In that case, it turns out that the Hulk was a temporary force on Bruce Banner because now that he didn't have to worry about being part of the Hulk anymore, he kind of became like a mad scientist type. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, if you go by the theory that, you know, that I subscribe to that.
00:36:28
Speaker
the Hulk is just simply another part of... Because really Bruce Banner and the Hulk is... The whole thing is just a metaphor for, what is it, multiple personality. Right, yeah. You know, I mean, you know, that whole thing. So, yeah, so the Hulk is a necessary part of Bruce Banner and vice versa. So, you know, they need each other. Bruce Banner, you know... Bruce Banner, without a doubt, is probably the craziest motherfucker in the Marvel universe.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just going by, you know, the fact that this is how he sees himself, you know, that, yeah, I mean, which, which I've never understood. Well, yeah, they did do it one time because there's that character, Doc Sampson, he's a psychiatrist. And at one time he was psychoanalyzing, you know, Bruce Banner. And there was that notion at one time that, well, if you, that you could cure Bruce Banner by means of psychoanalysis.
00:37:26
Speaker
Well, there was an interest, because, yeah, that was Peter David who did that, and that's where the Smart Hulk persona came from. It was kind of like a synthesis. Bruce Banner, the Savage Hulk, and also the Grey Hulk, Joe Fixett. But then, later on, I think it was in the late 90s, Paul Jenkins did a story where he established that, because Bruce Banner had this college friend who was also a psychoanalyst.
00:37:49
Speaker
analyst and came in and and she said to Doc Sampson one day she's like wait a second the smart Hulk is way too confident like I don't care what but Bruce Banner has never seen himself as that confident like that's not him at all and then yeah and then Sampson revealed okay you know what I created a fourth personality and and I told Bruce that it was the synthesis of all that to keep him in control
00:38:19
Speaker
But that was a really good run because he had explored all these different personalities. Every time the Hulk Bruce Banner changed into the Hulk, he changed into a different Hulk in that series. He changed into the Savage Hulk, he changed into the Grey Hulk, he changed into the Smart Hulk, they called the Professor. It was a really interesting take on it. Now, when I wrote my Hulk fan fiction series,
00:38:44
Speaker
and yet another different take on it because I saw Bruce Banner as actually being addicted to being the Hulk. Yeah, that was kind of what Jason Aaron did as well when he'd separated the Hulk and Bruce Banner because Banner's whole thing was he wanted to re-merge with the Hulk. Right.
00:39:02
Speaker
You know, and as much as he, you know, would go around telling people, oh, I hate the Hulk, I hate the Hulk, I hate the Hulk. You know, he didn't have any problem with pulling the Hulk out of his hip pocket when he got it, you know, when he got pissed off. And it's kind of like the thing that Mark Ruffalo does because they had the scene. What was it? I forget exactly what movie it is where
00:39:23
Speaker
He's asked by Captain America, OK, well, can you pull the Hulk out? Can you get mad? Can you get mad enough? He said, oh, well. He said, well, I'm always mad. Yeah, yeah. It was the first Avengers movie. Right, yeah. That's a memorable line, which, you know what? Story-wise, it doesn't really make any sense, but it's just such an awesome line when he just goes, like, that's my secret. I'm always angry. Right, yeah, yeah. Which was kind of like how when I wrote, that's how I kind of saw him, that, yeah, well, you know, what really, I'm always pissed off, you know.
00:39:52
Speaker
So yeah, but I mean, again, that's the whole thing about the Hulk, which is why I guess we're discussing the Hulk more than the actual story, is that the Hulk is not just this big green smashing machine, it's the whole psychological
00:40:08
Speaker
issues that come along with the character that makes him who he is. Yeah, I mean, remember the Ang Lee Hulk movie, which both you and I have talked about, like, that's a movie we both think is pretty underrated. But in that movie, there's that one scene where Eric Bana, he's talking to Betty Ross, Jennifer Connelly, and he tells her he's like, you know, right, he's like, during the change there, you know, he's like, deep down, he's like, you know, in the midst of like, all the rage and everything, he's like, I actually like it.
00:40:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, yes. Okay. The angry hope. Yes, it does have his problems. It's got an ending that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
00:40:47
Speaker
and you know uh yeah oh yeah okay it has a problem but when you want to talk about a movie that's got psychological maturity and depth for a superhero movie yeah that's it yeah definitely we get into you know not only with Bruce but with Betty also and everything like that you know we get into some really deep psychological waters dealing with these two
00:41:11
Speaker
uh seriously damage characters who you know who've had parents that really did a number on oh yeah i mean well she's when you got uh thunderbolt ross as your nick nolte as your father's yeah yeah i mean you know well
00:41:27
Speaker
One of these days, we're going to have to really review that movie. Because every time I bring it up, people are like, oh, that movie was crap. I said, well, no, it's not. And that movie got really kicked around by comic book fans who always complain before the Ang Lee Hulk that, well, nobody takes superheroes seriously. We don't get good directors, actors, or writers. Well, you got all of that with this movie. Yeah. And then they complained, like, oh, not enough smashy smash.
00:41:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, yeah, Hulk smash. Well, okay, well, all right. Well, see, like I said, you know, like I said, you know what, whenever people ask me if I got digressed for one minute, when people always ask me to say, oh, well, who do you write for? Who's your audience? I said, I have absolutely no idea who my audience is. I said, I write for me. Yeah. Because if you try to figure out what your audience want,
00:42:18
Speaker
That way lies madness. Well, I mean, in Stephen King, his book on writing, he says, you can't please all the people all the time. You can't even please some of the people all the time. You just have to settle for pleasing some of the people some of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's and he was exactly right. Like, so you just got to, you know, you just got to, you know, kind of write for yourself. You guys got to, like you said, you know, you write for yourself and you got to do.
00:42:43
Speaker
And comic book fans, they're so fickle. And you and I have talked about this many times that before a movie, they just announced a new movie and already people lining up to hate it. Oh my God, I remember the backlash over Heath Ledger being cast as the Joker. People were ready to burn down the goddamn internet based on that.
00:43:06
Speaker
You know, and then it came out and all of a sudden, all those people love Heath Ledger. Oh yeah. They never said anything about it. Exactly. All those people, all of a sudden, now they go, Oh, he was, Oh, he's the greatest joker ever. Well, wait a minute. That's not what you said to it. And there was some people that I knew that I called them wanted to, I said, well, that's not what you said.
00:43:25
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, okay, just say you was wrong. Well, I wasn't wrong, but you know. Oh, yeah, okay. So yeah, that's why whenever there's some sort of like oddball casting, I'm just like, you know what? Give it a chance. Let's see how it turns out. And sometimes it turns out bad. Like when Jesse Eisenberg was cast as Lex Luthor, I'm like, you know what? Let's give it a chance. Let's see how he does it. Cause if he does something like in the social network, he might be a pretty decent Lex Luthor. Then the movie came out and it was terrible, but you know, whatever. But I still say like, give it a chance.
00:43:55
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I mean, like a few years ago, we do have ever imagined Chris Evans as Captain America. Oh, hell no. Like when he was cast, I'm like, okay, that's an interesting pick. Yeah. And now you can't imagine anybody else playing Captain America. No, same thing with Robert Downey Jr. Like people don't remember this, but Robert Downey Jr. was a total oddball choice for Tony Stark.
00:44:19
Speaker
He actually had to sign all kind of agreements that he would show up for work on time. He would show up for work sober. A lot of people forget about Robert Downey Jr. He was unhirable at one time. Nobody would take a chance on him. Yeah, I mean, he had gone through a few attempts to kind of restore himself, and he'd always failed. He had been on Ally McBeal for a little bit, and then he ended up getting a DUI or something after that.
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah. And know who he credits with putting him back on the track to get his whole career and his life back? Who's that? Mel Gibson. Really? Yep. He said when he was in rehab, Mel Gibson came to see him every day, or if he didn't come see him, he would call him. And when he got out of rehab, Mel Gibson gave him his first job, because nobody else would give him a job. It was in a movie called The Singing Detective.
00:45:09
Speaker
Really? I didn't know that. Yeah. Mel Gibson, I believe he produced it and he directed it.
00:45:15
Speaker
And he, because he was going to play the role himself of the lead character, but he gave it to Robert Downey Jr. himself because nobody would hire the guy. Yeah. And then he, and then ironically enough, Mel Gibson ends up getting, uh, getting a DUI and like drunkenly ranting about the Jews controlling the world a few years later. Yeah. Hey, you know what? Because I get into arguments with people about this all the time. And it goes back to that whole thing with separating the art, the art from the artists, right? Because, you know, I,
00:45:43
Speaker
said something on some Facebook group. I'm always saying stupid shit, but I said something about Mel Gibson. Oh yeah, but he's a racist and he does this and that. I said, listen, if you heard something that shit I've said when I'm drunk, you wouldn't want to be my friend. Trust me. You know, I mean, listen, people do stupid shit and they say stupid shit. That doesn't mean that they mean stupid shit.
00:46:06
Speaker
You know, they don't. I mean, you know, sometimes you've got to cut people's slack and, you know, you don't know what's in a person's heart. People say, like I said, people say stupid shit. Okay. If we was to hold you still accountable for stuff that you said, remember 20 years ago? Oh yeah. I tried to, I tried to drink enough to block a lot of it out, but I remember. Okay. Now we was to still hold you accountable for all of that stuff.
00:46:36
Speaker
You know, would that be fair? No, no, you're right. You got you got a point there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, you got people saying people say stupid shit and they do stupid shit. That doesn't mean that they have to be penalized for the rest of their life for it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's all you know, that's all I'm saying. Now, going back to the movie, something I noticed there was a movie we were talking about somewhere there. I think I think we're supposed to be talking about a movie.
00:47:07
Speaker
Look, folks, we're 21 episodes in. If you don't expect this shit by now, then what have you been listening to? Yeah, exactly. I have no idea what you've been listening to all up to this time if you've been listening to it. But one of the things interesting, now you're a bigger Thor guy than me, so you would know, was the Enchantress, were her feelings for Thor genuine in the comics as well? Because I had always kind of had the impression that
00:47:33
Speaker
She didn't really have like genuine affection for him. She was just more like she wanted to manipulate him. Yeah, she kind of went back and forth in the comments from being lover, but because. If I remember correctly, and as always, if I've got it wrong, please somebody correct me. Oh, she only hooked up with the executioner. Because the executioner was genuinely in love with her, but she only just kept him around as her muscle, right?
00:48:03
Speaker
You know, and yeah, she did have some, I do recall that there was a period she did have feelings for Thor and you know, because she would use her magic, like to make him fall in love with her and stuff like that, but it never took.
00:48:16
Speaker
And, you know, Thor would give her this, you know, these speeches. Well, if you got to use a spell to make me fall in love with you, that's not really love. And she would say, well, I don't give a shit. Really? That was, I don't give a shit. You know, as long as you love me, that's it. So, but yeah, I mean, this wasn't something that they just pulled out just to service the plot. Okay. That, uh, yeah, the enchantress did have, uh, you know, feelings for her. And frankly, just going by the animation,
00:48:46
Speaker
in this animation, in this movie, if it came down to a chance between her and Sif, yeah, I'd take her. Now that, cause that was one of the things that jumped out at me was that scene where she restores Thor. And like, I really felt like she had genuine affection for him in that scene. I really bought, the actress did a good job selling that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She really did because, yeah, because, because, uh, yeah, we should mention that in both of these, uh,
00:49:16
Speaker
little short films, the Hulk definitely walks away the winner in both the fights. Because he just like, I think there's about like almost like almost a minute when he's doing nothing but just like pounding his shit out of Thor. Yeah. Which kind of upset me because I'm a Thor guy and I think that Thor can beat the Hulk. But listen, surviving an ass whooping from the Hulk is, you know, that's something to brag about right then and now. Yeah. Well, well, the Hulk kicked my ass and I walked away from it.
00:49:46
Speaker
You know, um, yeah, there's about, I mean, like he just pounds and, and Thor's lying there. And he's imagining that it's hell of the goddess of death that's come for him, which going by what she says later on, I think it might've been her, but then the Enchantress jumps in there.
00:50:06
Speaker
and she saves his life. Yeah, yeah. You know, she brings it back with a kiss. So I want to give credit to the actress who did the voice of Amara in this, Kari Walgren, because she did a good job selling it, especially in that scene. Yeah, yeah. She really comes across as, you know, as you said, you know, you believe that she has true affection for Thor. Yeah. That this is just like a whim or something like that, you know. And even,
00:50:33
Speaker
And even, uh, uh, there's one thing that I like that, uh, Thor says, well, listen, you go, I'm taking Loki. We're going to go get Bruce Banner. So.
00:50:44
Speaker
You go with Sif, and you protect her, and you keep on safe. And she doesn't like that shit, but she goes ahead and does it, because you asked her to. Yeah, she goes ahead and does it. And I'm glad you mentioned Sif, because that's another one I wanted to mention. One of the things I liked about this movie, and it's a short film, but we get more development of Sif and the Warriors 3 in this 45-minute short than we got in three Thor movies.
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah, you get a lot with Sif in this thing, which, yeah, like you said, that surprised me. You really get a lot with her. If not for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and her appearances on that show, she would not have gotten any development in the movies. Yeah, because she's what? You know what? Now that you think about it, I'm trying to remember
00:51:32
Speaker
How much she has to do in the first movie and she really doesn't have a whole lot. No, she doesn't like there's she's in the beginning she goes with Thor and the Warriors three to Jotunheim or Jotunheim and then and then she appears at the end and they fight off They fight the destroyer and then she has a small bit in the second movie and then in the third and she's not even in Ragnarok like she's
00:52:00
Speaker
See, well, you know, okay, here's the funny thing. Sif is not even really a love interest. You know, she's like one of the guys. Yeah, you know, that's actually something I liked about her, like that scene where he's going around, he's trying to convince them to join him and go to Jotunheim. And he says, like, and Sif, who convinced all of Asgard that a woman could be just a great warrior? And she's like, I did. And he's like, well, yeah, but I supported you.
00:52:24
Speaker
Yeah, she's like Elaine on Seinfeld. She's one of the guys. It should be the Warriors 4, not the Warriors 3. She's not really like a love interest. But she's such a badass that she deserves her own title. Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, really, you know what?
00:52:41
Speaker
You know what? I really hope that out of all the characters from the Thor universe that deserves their own Disney series, she should get one. Yeah. Well, you know what? I think that's one of the reasons she was kept out of Ragnarok is because they didn't want to kill her off, but they couldn't. So they just decided, you know, let's just say that she's in exile. Yeah.
00:53:05
Speaker
Cause they said, you know, she's still out there somewhere and she'll, yeah, she's still out there. Yeah. So hopefully, you know, I mean, you know, if Tyco YTT is listening to this, you know, first off come on the show and second, you know, get Jamie Alexander to come back and, uh, Thor love and thunder. Yeah, absolutely. Cause you know, she's a great cat, you know, and I've always liked Seth, you know, even from the comic books, I've always liked her.
00:53:29
Speaker
Yeah. See, she got a lot to do in this movie. The Warriors 3, even, especially in the beginning. Like, I like the little back-and-forth banter and development they had between them at the beginning of that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because that's the type of thing that you want to see from them, because basically, they're the Three Musketeers. Right, right. So when you see them, you should have that kind of feeling.
00:53:51
Speaker
you know, when you see them, it's that kind of, you know, like you said, that banter back and forth, you know, that teasing each other. And one thing that I liked about this movie in that, that they don't usually use, like sometimes they forget that Volstagg, they just treat him as a funny fat man, which he isn't. He's a warrior of Asgard. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but too often he's, he's the comic relief, you know, Oh, he's a coward or he, no, he's not, you know,
00:54:19
Speaker
One of the things, in Jason Aaron's Thor run, he actually became, he got, he had a hammer of his own for a time. He became called the Warthor.
00:54:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, listen, do you honestly think that Fandral and Ho, especially Hogan, do you, Hogan grim, do you think a guy named Hogan grim would let a funny fat man hang out with him? No, no, he wouldn't put up with that shit. No, of course not. Not him. No Fandral maybe, you know, you know, you're my sidekick, but Hogan, no. So, you know, this is a guy, this is a guy that can pull his own weight.
00:54:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I'm glad because they haven't seen this movie where it's Vostag that jumps on a horse and pulls out a sword and charges the Hulk. It says, let's go. I said, whoa, Vostag, go get him, big guy. Yeah, and he's the first one to charge at the Hulk.
00:55:12
Speaker
In fact, yeah, yeah, so yeah, so this first one it had a lot of heart had a lot of good character moments between them And and it the story was just very straightforward very it was it felt very like I I know what you're saying about the Kirby stuff because this this segment felt a lot like those early Marvel comics when the Hulk would randomly appear in someone's comic and they'd fight for for 22 pages or whatever and
00:55:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, this whole thing reminded me a whole lot of 60s.
00:55:43
Speaker
70s Marvel Comics it just had that feel to it and I love that they had that little homage to the whole TV series I love that. Yeah, that was that was the perfect ending. Yeah, that was a good part and There's also Thor makes I like that they give a sense that there's history here, right? Because you know Thor knows who the Hulk is and you get the sense that they they've been at this before. Oh, yeah Yeah
00:56:12
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. You know, it's not like the old thing where, oh, well, who, I mean, he knows who he is as soon as he, as soon as he sees him and he sees the damages cause that he said, and you know, um, I think it's Baldur cause he's done beat the hell out of Baldur and Baldur said, Oh my God. You know,
00:56:28
Speaker
Oh, he said, my Lord Thor, it's the end of the world. And Thor said, he said, it's Ragnarok. And Thor said, no, it's worse. It's the Hulk. I love that part. Yeah, he said, no, this is worse than Ragnarok. It's the Hulk. Which shows that he has the proper, like you said, he knows who he is. So we don't go through the whole awkward thing about, OK, well, what green skin beast is this, that? No, he knows. This is the Hulk. He knows him. Yeah.
00:56:57
Speaker
And then, um, and so now let's jump into the Wolverine segment. Now this, um, I expected to actually like this segment more just because I'm, I'm an X-Men guy. Wolverine's one of my favorite characters, but I think, you know, in retrospect, I kind of prefer the Thor segment more. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, well, first of all, cause I'm a Thor guy, you know, and Wolverine, I liked Wolverine.
00:57:24
Speaker
a lot of people think I don't like Wolverine. I like Wolverine until somebody decided that he was the most important person in the Marvel universe. Yeah. And he had to be in every comic book and he had to be on every team. And cause I think at one point he was like a member of the Avengers, the X-Men and the secret defenders all at one time.
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah, he was there. Yeah, he was part of like the X-Men. So here's where it really started to get crazy is in the early 2000s, you had Grant Morrison and Joe Casey came on the X-Men books and they said Wolverine was going to be, and they're both doing separate teams in each of their books, which is a good idea. But they said Wolverine was going to be on both teams. And I'm like, okay, well that doesn't make any sense. That's kind of stupid.
00:58:05
Speaker
Although, to Morrison's credit, he only used Wolverine once in a blue moon. He actually wasn't really part of their team.
00:58:14
Speaker
After they left, you had like Claremont and Chuck Austin and Josh Whedon doing the X-Men books, each doing their own book. Wolverine's on all three teams and then Bendis comes on the Avengers and he wants Wolverine on the Avengers. So now he's on three X-Men teams, then he's on the Avengers and then they do an X-Force title and he's in X-Force as well. And it's like, you know, for a guy who's supposed to be a loner, what the hell are you doing on all these different teams?
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And then in his own book, he's going to the island of Madripoor and running a bar. Yeah, yeah. You know, I remember that was kind of the weird thing about the early issues of his solo series where he was supposed to be in Australia and the X-Men were presumed dead. And then he's hopping off to Madripoor to run this bar and his disguise is just an eye patch. Just an eye patch.
00:59:05
Speaker
I mean, I don't know what the hell Claremont was thinking that anybody would believe that. But he still got the same hair, mind you. Exactly. Yeah. Same hair, same voice, everything. And in fact, Peter David came out of the title. He did a storyline after Claremont left. And he did a storyline where everyone's like, oh, so can we stop pretending that you're not Wolverine now?
00:59:25
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I mean, because, oh man, you know, it's just, although you know what? I did like the idea because since you do have so many mutants, I did like the idea of having two teams of X-Men because you know what? You can do that. You know, you got this many mutants. Okay. You have a blue team and a gold team, you know? Yeah. You know, well, why not?
00:59:47
Speaker
But you know to have him on both teams i mean i mean really yeah and so was the weird thing about that it was so funny. Everybody knew i was Wolverine, how come nobody said something and it was Jessica drusch like listen. When the short guy who likes to stab people and has anger issues says he is going by different name you just go with it you just go with it right you just go with it you know.
01:00:15
Speaker
You don't question them, you know, you know. You know, this is the guy that can pop out the adamantium claws, you know, when you look at him raw. Yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, so he's, he's been, like, I love the character, but he is ridiculously overexposed. And now, in this movie, like, you know, Steve Blum doesn't, but you know, the animation was a little bit weird because the mask, it's kind of like they were trying to go for the classic style mask because
01:00:45
Speaker
A lot of people don't know this, but in Wolverine's first appearance, he didn't have those huge ass flares on his mask. It was actually like just like a small little archway type of thing. And then it actually- He had whiskers. He had whiskers on it too, yeah. And it was actually an inking error is how he got the classic mask. Cause Gil Kane was inking the cover of a giant size X-Men number one. And he made a mistake or something and he drew that he inked the flares too high.
01:01:14
Speaker
So then they had to go back to the whole issue and do that over all his appearances in the issue because they didn't have time to redo the cover. Oh, okay. So it was an accident? Yeah, it was a total accident. That's how his mascot got that way.
01:01:32
Speaker
And so they, you know, he's got the big ass flared mask in this, but it's also yellow from like the nose down. So it's kind of like this weird cross between the classic design and the familiar design. So I don't know why they did that, but it was just up to that. It kept bothering me throughout the whole movie. Well, well.
01:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, but you know what? I always figured that they go with that for people who... Because most people are familiar with him wearing that cowl with the big... First of all, I never understood why... Wolverine is one of those characters I never understood why he wore a mask anyway. Oh, same here. Like, I get in this argument all the time. Like, I don't think Wolverine needs a mask. He's got that very distinctive hairstyle, especially now that after we've seen the movies, like, everybody associates that with Wolverine. So you don't need the mask.
01:02:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, he's a guy that has a very unique, distinctive look to him. So why not just capitalize on that? Yeah, exactly. If I ever end up drawing an X-Men comic book, I promise you that my Wolverine will not be wearing a mask. Well, thank you for that, sir. No, really. I mean, you know, there's a whole lot. The whole list of superheroes that I could go through that wear masks,
01:02:55
Speaker
And I understand that that's a convention of the genre, but, you know, yeah, a lot of them, it just, there's really no reason for them to wear masks. Right. Yeah. I mean, especially because Wolverine doesn't really have a secret identity. So there's no, there's no reason for it at all. Well, this is what I'm saying. It's not like.
01:03:15
Speaker
He's a billionaire by day. Logan is a billionaire playboy by day. He's just Wolverine. He's Logan. He has no secret identity to protect. So then why is he wearing a mask? Yeah, that was always my feeling as well.
01:03:34
Speaker
Now, the Weapon X stuff, I'm not sure if they didn't want to do the Wendigo story from Wolverine's first appearance or what. Part of me thinks they just wanted to throw Deadpool in it. Deadpool gets a lot of lines in this segment. Deadpool gets a lot of airtime in this. I think he gets more dialogue than any other member of the team. Oh, definitely.
01:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. Because he's making wise cracks all throughout the other scenes where people are speaking dialogue and they're going through the plot exposition and stuff like that. He's standing off onto the side. He's making all kinds of wise cracks. Then even at the end, he gets that one little last scene, that teaser at the end.
01:04:26
Speaker
He gets, you know, so yeah, he gets a lot of time in this. So if you don't, so if you're a Deadpool fan, you will enjoy this segment. Trust me. So how did you feel about it? Because you're, you're not a Deadpool fan. Um, you know what? It didn't bother me. Like I said, the only thing, oops, I just dropped something. Excuse me. The only thing that bothered me, like I said was that I think that if they were going to make this a Wolverine story, then just go ahead and make it a Wolverine story.
01:04:55
Speaker
Don't tell me that it's going to be Hulk versus Wolverine, which of course it is because we do get a, you know, like a fight. And just like with Thor, he kicks Wolverine's ass. Uh, but I mean, if you, okay, you couldn't take the Hulk out of the Thor story because he's integral. He, you know, the whole resolution of the story depends on the choice that Bruce Banner makes. Yeah.
01:05:24
Speaker
But you could take the Hulk out of the Wolverine thing, and it wouldn't make a difference. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It really would. It wouldn't make a difference. As a matter of fact, if you substituted the Hulk for the Wendigo, then you're looking for the Wendigo instead of the Hulk. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. That is one of the weaknesses of this segment, is the Hulk. It's totally a Wolverine story that they just tossed the Hulk into.
01:05:52
Speaker
And yeah, so this felt kind of unnecessary for that. I mean, I did think Nolan North was okay as Deadpool. You know, I did like when he came in and he's like, he's like, Logan, buddy, it's been forever. Like nobody's called me Bub in ages. Yeah, because, okay. Okay. This just hit me. We don't have a part in the Thor segment where they stopped the movie dead to give us the origin of Thor.
01:06:22
Speaker
But they do that here. They stop the story dead to give us the origin of Wolverine. Yeah, and they have flashbacks and everything. I remember watching them. Why are they wasting all this time with this? Right, which is why, as we said earlier at the top of this episode, even though the Thor segment is longer, the Wolverine segment seems longer to me. Because, yeah, they've got that. And I mean, this is a pretty lengthy flashback.
01:06:51
Speaker
If it takes up like a like a good third of the movie yourself, yeah Yeah, and I mean it stops the main thrust of the story dead in the water So we get Wolverine's origin right and they try to have and they try to work in the Hulk by saying like well We want the Hulk to be worked for weapon and it just it never quite feels like that's really what's going on here Right because once they capture the Hulk like I said though
01:07:18
Speaker
You have Sabretooth and Lady Deathstrike. That's it. They just want to kill Wolverine. It's like nobody really cares about the Hulk anymore. Once they've captured him. Yeah. And what also struck me is this segment is also pretty damn violent, too. Like, there's that scene where Wolverine chops off the professor's hand and, like, blood's gushing out of it and everything. Yeah, they have what? The Hulk he rips off Lady Deathstrike's arm? Oh, yeah, yeah. He just grabs it. He just, again, OK.
01:07:48
Speaker
Okay, let me just say this. Yes, there's a horrific amount of violence in here, but it's honest because to me, it's like when we were talking about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the previous episode. Okay, you have a character with swords, and the only thing he cuts in the movie is a pizza. Yeah, yeah. He never uses them in combat. And you pointed out the scene, quite rightly, where the ninja keeps ducking them when he's, you know,
01:08:16
Speaker
And then just before he can't cut him, you know, he holds back the swords. Right. He goes for a kick instead. Right. Okay. Wolverine is a character who's got ginsu knives that comes out of the back of his hand. So of course he uses them. Yeah. And that's what he does in this movie. He, I mean, he just straight up chops up people. Like, you know, they were salami by Frank.
01:08:40
Speaker
You know, this is a bloody, yeah, this segment is kind of bloody folks. So, you know, I wouldn't advise, you know, you let the little kids, you know, watch this part because yeah, Wolverine uses those knives. I mean, he uses them claws for what they are intended to, to kill people. He straight up murders a whole bunch of people in this, you know.
01:09:01
Speaker
That was something I actually liked about the second X-Men movie was they didn't hold back when Wolverine, when they're invading the mansion, Wolverine cuts loose on him. He's stabbing people with those things in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know what? Don't give me a character. His primary weapon is a sword. And then all throughout the whole thing, oh, well, he's knocking out people with the flat of the blade. Get the hell out of here. It's a sword. Cut his head off. Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:28
Speaker
And I realize, yes, that makes me sound like a bloodthirsty maniac. But no, I'm just a big believer in it. You know what? If you don't intend for your character to use that weapon, then don't give it to him. Right. It's like when the Punisher was everywhere in the 90s, and then he'd be mowing down people in his own book and killing him dead, and then he teams up with Captain America, and all of a sudden he's using rubber bullets.
01:09:52
Speaker
See that was my problem with the Punisher just so just what you say in his own comment Yeah, he's mowing down people left and right but then when he's teaming up with Captain America or Daredevil Oh now using a taser or rubber bullets everything, you know, come on really? Yeah You know, you can't have it both ways exactly exactly So but yeah, but
01:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Wolverine, yes, folks, this is not, if your little one says, I wanna see the movie Wolverine, you know, you know your kid best, but this segment, yeah, I kinda, yeah. And it's not like I was disturbed by it, I was just kinda surprised, I'm like, oh wow, I did not expect to see Wolverine chopping off some guy's hand and then see blood gushing out of the wound.
01:10:46
Speaker
Oh no, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's a part where he's in the hallway and it's the soldiers, I guess they're the grip soldiers that they have, you know, the security force and he's in the hallway and he just goes down the hallway and he's just like cutting guys. He's slicing and dice and left and right. Yeah. He slices off Deadpool's arm at one point as well. Yeah. And you know, I said, Oh my God, I'm looking at his blood flying around. I'm saying, you know, and I just recently, um, watched, uh,
01:11:13
Speaker
sort of vengeance, baby cart from hell. And I said, oh, this, and that's what it reminded me of. Oh man. That's, that's, I covered that on Japan on film, I think last year. Yeah. I listened to it the other day because Turner classic movies, they showed all six of the movies.
Shogun Assassin and Lone Wolf and Cub
01:11:34
Speaker
Oh really? Okay. Yeah. So I, so I watched it and I said, oh, wait a minute, let me listen here and see what Perry's got to say. It's been a long time since I saw
01:11:42
Speaker
those movies. Because as a matter of fact, the last time I saw it, I saw the version that has the first two movies. It was called Shogun Assassin. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of like one that was cobbled together. Right. And they kind of like took. So this is like the first time I saw the two movies separate. And I had actually forgotten how bloody these movies were. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's like geysers of blood.
01:12:12
Speaker
the scene where the guy, the ninja, they wanna hire this ninja clan to kill the lone wolf. And it's these female ninjas. And, you know, the guy is, you know, he's making fun of the women and he's saying, ah, yeah, well, you know, you know, women and the leader, she says, okay, who's your best ninja? And he calls them up and the guy comes up there and the woman says, okay, try to get out of this room. And these women just like,
01:12:41
Speaker
They just hacked him up in the most horrendous way. They just cut off limbs every which way as he's trying to get out. It's a wow. I said, wow. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They did not hold back in those movies. I had forgotten how bloody those movies were. A lot of fun, though. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, they're not as good as the comic. Like, if you've never read the Lone Wolf and Cub comic book, you definitely got to check that out.
01:13:05
Speaker
But yeah, but those movies, yeah, they did not hold back. They were total fun. And they actually just recently released them, I think maybe last year, on Criterion. Oh, okay. Yeah, because I'm thinking about it. And you know what? I like the fact that the guy, he wasn't, you know, he looks like a middle-aged, you know, office worker.
01:13:28
Speaker
That was actually one of the things that took me out of the movie a little bit. Just because I had read some of the comics. So like he's nothing like the guy in the comics. Appearance wise, he's nothing like the guy in the comics. So that took me out of it a little bit. Well, they said don't turn to classic movies because you know they introduce the movies before they come on. And they said that
01:13:49
Speaker
the guy who played the lone wolf in the movies, that he went to the creator's house, the guy that created, you know, the manga. And he went dressed up as the character. Oh, really? And he said, oh, I know you think I'm too fat and everything like that, but let me show you what I could do. And he had like a wooden sword and he was doing all the moves and everything like that. And he was showing them how he could move and, uh,
01:14:11
Speaker
You know, the guy had said, OK, you can play him. You know, you got my blessing. Wow, you know, now I like that that kind of commitment when when an actor goes that far with it. Yeah, yeah, because he said, yeah, I know I don't look like the guy that you drew. You know, I'm kind of chubby and I got double chin. He said, but I can do this. And like I said, he showed up at full regalia, you know, to the guy's house and he showed him what he could do. And the guy said, OK, yeah, you got the job, you know.
01:14:40
Speaker
So yeah, but I kind of like the fact he didn't look like your conventional, you know samurai, you know tall and thin and and I like that he looked like a dad So going back to the movie we're supposed to be talking about okay, so it turns out that
Hulk and Wolverine Trivia
01:15:01
Speaker
uh
01:15:01
Speaker
Fred Tedesiori and Stephen Blum, who did Hulk and Wolverine, they recorded their lines at the same time. And apparently, I'm reading the trivia now, they got into their roles so much, the staff was worried they were going to start a fight in the recording studio. Really? I'm just taking up some other trivia here. Oh, go right ahead.
01:15:34
Speaker
Oh, so yeah, there's the banners appearance here at the beginning of Hulk versus Wolverine. It's kind of similar to his Last scene in Incredible Hulk where he's you know, he goes off to the lake to be on his own and then he gets And he also uses the famous light, you know, you're making me angry Yeah Yeah, yeah that they do like little homages to
01:15:59
Speaker
you know, like they did in the Thor thing, the way it ends. And here they, they get in a couple of little things that are homages to the, uh, I mean, you know, the TV series, which I always appreciate because to me that says that the people that made this have a respect for what came before them and they just didn't dismiss it. And they said, cause to me,
01:16:24
Speaker
It's more interesting when a creator can find something that's already been done, and they can find a way to work it into this new thing that they're doing to establish a continuity so that you can say, OK, well, this is the same character. It's not anything new. It's anything different. Like I always tell people, here I go digressing again. I always tell people that the one thing I appreciate about Val Kilmer's performance
01:16:52
Speaker
as Batman in Batman Forever in that he does things with his body language and his voice. He's not imitating Michael Keaton, but he's doing enough to let you know this is the same guy. Yeah, yeah.
01:17:05
Speaker
It's not like George Clooney, where it's a completely different character. Right, right. It's not the same Bruce Wayne, but Val Kilmer, you know, he says, OK, he's letting you know through his voice and through his body language that, yeah, this is the same guy that you saw in the
Batman Portrayals and Appreciation for Continuity
01:17:19
Speaker
first two movies. You know, I think more than any other actor, Val Kilmer got the most shortchanged as Batman.
01:17:25
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, he did. I mean, he was given a terrible script, terrible movie to make his debut performance in, never got another chance after that. And then even Ben Affleck got to do Justice League. But yeah, Kilmer did not get enough time. I think if he had gotten a better movie, he would have been a much better Batman. If he had gotten a better movie or if he had gotten another movie, I think he would be more highly regarded. Yeah.
01:17:52
Speaker
Yeah, but Val. Yeah, but Val Kilman. No. Yeah, I'm all the Batman actors. Yeah, he's the one that doesn't get you know, like he he he gets no respect at all and it's a shame because he did not have a good movie to work with he really did right All right, let's see what else here there's something else I wanted to mention
01:18:13
Speaker
oh apparently so this is also from the trivia but the filmmakers they said that when the Hulk hit saber-tooth like he apparently hit him so hard that he actually killed saber-tooth in this movie really yeah oh okay that was interesting that was an interesting thing um but that's about it like i'm not sure there's really much else to talk about like the Thor stuff
01:18:36
Speaker
surprisingly I thought I would like the Wolverine stuff a lot more but the the Thor stuff actually it fits together a lot more everything fires on more cylinders all the characters have a reason to actually be in there the Wolverine stuff you know it's
Animated vs. Live-action Movies
01:18:51
Speaker
like like we said it's just like the it's like a Wolverine origin story and they just tossed in the Hulk for the hell of it
01:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, this is, this isn't actually a traditional full length movie like we usually talk about, but I wanted to talk about, because for one, I, you know, was looking over what, and we've never done like an animated, you know, movie. And of course, when, you know, I, you know, I said to some of my friends, you know, you don't know.
01:19:20
Speaker
But some of my friends when they say, Oh man, y'all guys did a good job on the last, you know, what are you going to do next? And I saw, we're going to do an animated movie and oh, well, what are you going to do? Oh, go for some, what? You're not going to do Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse. You got to do to the Spider-Man in the Spider-Man.
01:19:36
Speaker
I said, well, we'll get to that sooner or later. I said, but this is an older movie that a lot of people probably either haven't seen or didn't even know was out there. I just like to let people know what's out there. Ah, man, you ought to do Spider-Man.
01:19:52
Speaker
Nobody wants to hear about that old stuff. That's an old guy. But you know what? It was either this or Batman year one, but we just did a DC movie. Right, right. We did like a string of DC stuff. After A-Bar, we did the Watchmen TV show, and then we did Aquaman.
01:20:13
Speaker
And then we switch over to Ninja Turtles. But yeah, we did a bunch of DC stuff in a row. So it's good to kind of take a break. Yeah. Yeah. So it was about time for, you know, like a marble thing. And like I said, I hadn't seen this one in a while anyway. So I said, okay, well, you know what? Let's do this one. And, uh,
01:20:34
Speaker
Because there's another, well, not exactly a Marvel movie, but I want to see what I want to see if it's available anywhere before I make that my choice. When is my turn around again? It's another Marvel thing. Actually, it's not a Marvel thing. It started out as a Doctor Strange movie, but then it got turned into another character called Dr. Modred. Oh yeah. Yeah. I saw you got, I saw you mentioning this on a, so you talked about this with someone in one of the Facebook groups somewhere.
01:21:01
Speaker
Right, yeah, yeah. And I said, really? So I want to make that my choice when my turn comes around again. But first, I want to see where it's available at for us to watch. Yeah. So I'll let you know. OK, sounds good. Yeah, that was an interesting conversation I was kind of peering in on. And I actually ended up looking up the movie afterwards and trying this. And I was surprised because some of the images I saw made it look a lot more dated, but it came out in the 90s.
01:21:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, apparently this was supposed to be a, uh, this was to be a Dr. Strange movie, but for some reason it, you know, it didn't, and it got transmogrified into this original character. So I said, Oh, you know what? That's something that we should follow up on and you know, we should talk about. Yeah. Yeah. That seems like a good choice. Um, okay. So, uh, I think that's pretty much all we have to say about Hulk versus, um, you know,
01:21:55
Speaker
It's a great animated movie. It's not long. It's not even like 90 minutes long. Right. Oh, you know, what else is, um, uh, Sam Lou directed, um, I think it was, yeah, he directed the Hulk versus Thor segment. And you know, if you've been, if you watch any of the DC movies, like Sam Lou directs like all of those. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Lou. Yeah. Uh, didn't he direct all star Superman? I believe he did. Yeah. I'm looking him up right now, which is like, which is like, you know,
01:22:21
Speaker
Well, I mean that's an animated movie. We definitely have to make time for you know, okay, here's his film I read like listen to this. This is crazy. Okay. He did
01:22:35
Speaker
He was a director on Extreme Ghostbusters. He was a director on Godzilla, the TV series from the late 90s. He was a director on The Batman, Hulk Versus, Superman Batman Public Enemies, Planet Hulk, Justice League Crisis on Two Earths. He did an episode of Young Justice, All-Star Superman, Thor Tales of Asgard, Batman Year One, Green Lantern the Animated Series, Beware the Batman.
01:23:00
Speaker
Justice League Gods and Monsters, Justice League versus Teen Titans, The Killing Joke, which, you know, the less said about that, the better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teen Titans, The Judas Contract, Batman, Harley Quinn, Gotham by Gaslight, Suicide Squad, Hell to Pay, which I think both of us love that one.
01:23:16
Speaker
Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. That's another animated movie that we got to get to. Yeah. Death of Superman, Reign of the Superman, Justice League versus the Fatal Five, Wonder Woman Bloodlines, and Superman Red Sun. I mean, damn, this guy's done a lot of work. So this guy probably directed more superhero movies than anybody living. Probably. Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:42
Speaker
He's good, too. That Justice League movie? What is it? Crisis on two worlds? Oh, yeah, that was a good one. Oh, man. My favorite one, though, is Justice
Marvel and DC: Animation and TV Show Quality
01:23:51
Speaker
League Doom. You know what? I had said when they was, you know, this is before we got the actual live action Justice League movie that we did.
01:24:02
Speaker
I said, you know what? Warner Brothers should stop beating themselves over the head and just put Justice League Doom and Crisis on Tours. Just put that in the movie theaters. That's a double feature. Yeah, yeah. And that's it, you know.
01:24:14
Speaker
And you also had in that one, Justly Duke, right? You had Kevin Conroy and Tim Daly coming back as Batman at Superman, Susan Eisenberg coming back as Wonder Woman, Carl Lumley coming back as Martian Manhunter and Michael Rosenbaum as the Flash, all those characters from the Justice League animated series. But then you also had Nathan Fillion as the Green Lantern, which was awesome. I mean,
01:24:41
Speaker
Those are like, to me, if anybody wanted a Justice League move, even over the live-action one, well, yeah. Well, I would give them those two movies and Justice League the New Frontier. Oh, yeah. New Frontier is another great one. Oh, yeah. What does that say that the animated Justice League movies are better than the live-action one? You know, I don't know what it is about DC, but for some reason,
01:25:09
Speaker
They can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to live-action stuff, but the animation stuff, it's always top-notch. Even the ones that are kind of like men are still leagues better than Justice League the Movie. I mean, even Gotham Knights. People don't like Gotham Knights. I like Gotham Knights myself. And like you said,
01:25:32
Speaker
Even the ones that are kind of like at the bottom of rung of the ladder are still a lot better than you know Their live-action output, right? Yeah, which makes you say, you know I don't understand why they just don't go to the guys that do the animation and just say okay Well, you know what you guys gonna make a live-action, you know, Justice League movies since it seems like you know what you're doing Oh, yeah. Yeah, they should definitely do that. I don't know why they haven't yet, but I
01:25:56
Speaker
I mean, at this point they gotta try something different. Or even just go to the guys who do the TV shows, because they know what they're doing too. Yeah, they know what they're doing too. You know, give them a big budget like they did with Power Rangers back in the day. Give them a big budget and tell them to make a live action movie.
01:26:13
Speaker
Cause I tell you between you, me, and how many people are listening to this. I'm so sick of hearing about this flash movie. I don't know what to do. Oh God. And then he got arrested in Sweden or something, whatever it was. So like, I don't know what the hell's going on with that. Because, uh, because for my money, Ezra Miller, first of all, I didn't like him in justice league. He was like the weakest part of the movie. You know, I, you know, I didn't like him period. And,
01:26:40
Speaker
You know, don't expect me to pay money to go see him play Flash in the... No, I'm not doing it. You know what's funny? We thought we'd do a Marvel episode and we still end up getting talking about DC again.
01:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, I know, right? It always comes back to DC. Well, I mean, that's that. I mean, it is kind of like DC was ahead of the game in term than Marvel when it came to movies and other media because, you know, Marvel was just a comic book company. DC was owned by Warner Brothers. So they had the resources and Warner Brothers had all this IP. So they were able to do a lot more with it. I think a lot of OK, a lot of what it is is that
01:27:21
Speaker
DC felt like they had to play catch-up and they started chasing Marvel. And I knew, I said, okay, when you have a movie, Man of Steel, bad as it was, the movie made something like what, $275 million worldwide?
01:27:40
Speaker
And Warner Brothers in DC came up with a statement said that they weren't happy with that. Yeah. I said, okay, see now that, see, that's the problem right there. Yeah. When you have a movie that made that much money and because you wanted to make the same kind of money that Avengers made. Right.
01:27:57
Speaker
That's what you're thinking of. You're not thinking of the story. You're not thinking of the characters. You're not thinking you're not thinking creativity, you know, no creativity. You're just thinking you want to make a movie that makes as much money as Iron Man or Black Panther or Avengers. And I think that that's the trap that DC Warner Brothers fell into.
01:28:15
Speaker
Well, because they tried twice, because they so wanted to create their own cinematic universe. They tried with Green Lantern, remember? Because there was like, yeah, there's all that stuff with Amanda Waller and all that. That was all intended to set up a DC cinematic universe. And then it failed. So then they're like, OK, well, let's make Man of Steel. And then Man of Steel doesn't feel like it was supposed to be the start of a cinematic universe. But it did so well that DC's like, OK, now let's play catch up and throw everything in one movie. Yeah. You see, that's the thing. And there is no way you can catch up.
01:28:45
Speaker
with a decade's worth of movies that's already been made. You have to commit yourself to doing 10, but see, they didn't want to do that. They just wanted, okay, well, you know what? All we got to do is just throw a bunch of people in costumes in the same movie and we'll make money.
01:29:04
Speaker
we sort of result to that. Yeah. But also like, you know, this was an interesting time for Marvel, because this was when Marvel was really trying to branch out and trying, because they had, they had done a bunch of TV shows, you know, some were really good, like you had the X-Men TV show. Others were, you know, of questionable quality, like Fantastic Four and Iron Man.
01:29:29
Speaker
But then you had, and Spider-Man 2 had some good points, but also had some really bizarre points as well. Like I said in the last episode, there couldn't be any pigeons on the roof because when he landed, and he couldn't throw a punch. They wouldn't let Spider-Man punch anybody.
01:29:47
Speaker
Really it was such it was such a weird time and you know, they had the sinister six in one episode but they couldn't call them the sinister six because the The standards and practice says no, you can't use the word sinister in kids TV show Well, what'd they call them the kind of sinister six? No, they call them the insidious six. I
01:30:09
Speaker
Okay, well, you know what? That's not bad, but you know, but here's the funny thing at the same time Over in the x-men TV show. They had a villain called mr. Sinister I Don't know and then so yeah, you know what? I always said that I Really wish I could have sit in on one of these meetings that they have when they're trying to you know and just ask him
01:30:39
Speaker
I don't know. I just would really just like, I don't know. You know what? I would just like to have some insight into the process of how they make these decisions. And you know, well, wait a minute. Why? Because you know what? Comic books are the, comic books are the easy, to me it's like the easiest thing in the world to translate to film because they're nothing but storyboards anyway. Right. Especially animation. Yeah. That's all it is. So all you gotta do is just take that
01:31:05
Speaker
and translate that to live action and you got a movie. But it just seems like they can't be satisfied with what's on the page. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they have to put, but as people who are in the film industry have, it has explained to me that you have people at every step of the process, they feel that they have to put their fingerprint on it. Yeah. So that they can, you know, so they can say, okay, well I did that, you know,
01:31:30
Speaker
So that's why they said that sometimes changes are made just for the sake that somebody just wants to make a change just so they can say that they made that change. Right. Right. Yeah. So.
01:31:40
Speaker
Oh, it's a weird industry. It is. It's a weird industry. People tell me all the time, they say, oh, well, Derek, if Hollywood comes knocking at your door, you know, you're going to sell. I said, well, how much are they going to give me? First of all, first of all, and then, oh, well, what are you going to ask for? You're going to ask for creative control. I said, I'm not going to ask for nothing except a fat check. And that's it. Let them go do it and let them go do what they want. And that's it.
01:32:05
Speaker
Which people find kind of curious, they say, well, as much as you love movies and yeah, but I have no wish to get caught up in that insanity though. Right, right, right. You know, I'm not trying to go crazy. And I don't think, and from everything I've heard from creative people, you know, writers and such who have got caught up in that, you know, it's not worth it to me. It really isn't.
01:32:29
Speaker
You know, and see me, I'm a materialistic bastard. Just give me the check and let me go about my business. So yeah, so, um, so this, this movie, it's, I think it kind of falls in the middle of the Marvel animated stuff. Like it's, it's not one of the best ones, but it's also not one of the worst either. It's a movie that I would say you don't have to see it, but if you are, but if you are a fan of Thor Wolverine, you know, Paul,
01:32:59
Speaker
the whole, and you just want like, you know, something quick to watch in the afternoon. Like you got an hour to kill before you got to go out someplace or, you know, whatever like that. Yeah. You know, watch this. You know, why not? Yeah. It's only like 75 minutes. So it's not that, not that big of a time commitment. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, exactly. It's not even 90 minutes long, you know? So it's not, it's not like a big, you know, it's not like kingdom of heaven. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to make a commitment for the whole afternoon to watch.
01:33:28
Speaker
Okay, all right, so that about wraps it up on Hulk
Preview: Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance
01:33:32
Speaker
versus. So the next pick is mine, and I kind of agree with you. I think we've done a bunch of DC stuff, so I wanted to kind of switch it up, do a little bit more Marvel stuff. And with that in mind, I thought, what is probably the most insane Marvel movie that's been made so far? Dr. Strange?
01:33:51
Speaker
No, not Dr. Strange. Not Dr. Strange, neither are the Dr. Strange movies, but we did the original Dr. Strange. But no, what I think was the craziest Marvel movie was Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance. Oh, the first one? No, no, the second one. Oh, the second one with Idris Elba. With Idris Elba and Nicolas Cage back as Johnny Blaze. And yeah, and it was directed by the guys who did the Crank movies.
01:34:19
Speaker
Oh, okay. All right. See, it's been such a long time since I've seen it. Cause I know I've seen it. I saw it like an HBO like years and years ago. Yeah. I don't remember much about, Oh yeah. Okay. This'll be a good opportunity for me to revisit that. Yeah. Because the, the first one I think was terrible, absolutely God awful. But, um, the second one is also not good, but it's, it's just got a lot of fun parts in it.
01:34:47
Speaker
Well, I'm going to say a lot of my opinions about Ghost Rider until we get into that. But just let me say, first of all, that much as I love Nicolas Cage, he was horribly miscast. Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's the first problem with this. First of all, he was too old to play the character. Yeah. No. Yeah, we were talking about Nick Cage back when he started out, when he did like, you know, Vampire's Kiss back in the 80s. If he did Ghost Rider then,
01:35:16
Speaker
Yeah, maybe, yeah. Also in the first movie, I remember he did like this really bad Southern accent, like the same, he brought out that Con Air accent.
01:35:25
Speaker
Well, you know what Cage does? Every time he's in a movie and he can't be bothered to actually build a character, he falls back on doing Elvis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can always tell when he's being lazy, he falls back on doing Elvis. Yeah. Well, fortunately, in Spirit of Vengeance, the director, someone told him, drop the accent.
01:35:49
Speaker
because he didn't use it in the second one. So yeah, come join us next time. We'll be talking about Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance, which it's a fun movie. It's a bit off the wall, so it'll be good to go back to that. Okay, I'm looking forward to seeing it. Yeah, yeah. And it's a movie that probably a lot of people have forgotten, so...
01:36:08
Speaker
I know I did. As a matter of fact, I believe the only reason that I watched it was because I wanted to know what Idris Elba was going to do in a Ghost Rider movie. Well, that's what I was thinking about when I was thinking about this, because I remember you were saying, you've got your favorite, who let him into this movie type of thing. Yeah. That's definitely the case with Idris Elba. Who the hell let him in this movie?
01:36:35
Speaker
Okay, so come join us over SuperheroCinephiles.com as a website.
Superhero Cinephiles Podcast Promotion
01:36:40
Speaker
Join the Facebook group, SuperheroCinephiles, just go search for it on there. Follow us on Twitter or Instagram, SuperCinemapod. And oh, also, I just remembered something. So last week we did the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it's actually the 30th anniversary of that movie.
01:36:58
Speaker
Oh, wow. So again, just like we had with Batman Day, we had this really good timing with that. Yeah. And look at that. We didn't even see how good we are. We timed these things and have no idea what we're doing. Next week, there's probably going to be like some ghost writer thing that comes out as well.
01:37:18
Speaker
It all works out in the end. That's spectacular. And also, well, something that Dave Ellis posted on our Facebook group, apparently, I think it's like next month or something, or maybe even later this month, Judith Hogue, who played April in the original Turtles movie, is going to be hosting like a cast reunion virtual pizza party. Oh, massively cool. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I did see that. OK.
01:37:45
Speaker
So yeah, so that's a interesting little bit of trivia to follow up on last week's episode. Um, but that's it for now. Uh, thanks for listening. Sorry, go ahead. No, can I just get in a little plug here real quick? You're always welcome to plug away my friend. Okay, folks, if you have not listened to Japan on film yet, do yourself a favor and go right now and listen to the, uh, episode about a lone wolf and cub sort of vengeance.
01:38:11
Speaker
And also listen to the most recent one, Message in Space, which kind of fits in with this being the month of Star Wars and whatnot. So I listened to those two episodes recently. So by all means, I recommend them highly. Go listen to them. Oh, thank you for that. Plug over. OK, thank you. Thank you. I wasn't expecting you to plug my stuff, but very appreciated.
01:38:36
Speaker
All right, so that's it for now. Thanks for listening. Come join us next week, and we'll talk to you later. OK, good night, and God bless. And wash your hands and stay home. Wash your hands, stay home, and if you got to go out, make sure you wear a mask. Bingo.
01:38:56
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. If you have any questions or comments about this or any other episode, or if you have a superhero movie or TV show you'd like us to cover in a future episode, you can email us at superheroescinephiles at gmail.com, or you can also visit us on the web at superheroescinephiles.com.
01:39:16
Speaker
If you like what you hear, leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Each review helps us reach more potential listeners. You can also support the show by renting or purchasing the movies discussed, or by picking up our books, all of which can be accessed through the website, as well as find links to our social media presences. The theme music for this show is a shortened version of Superhero Showdown, a royalty-free piece of music, courtesy of pheasantudios.com.