00:00:00
00:00:01
Mothness Returns?! An Alice: Madness Returns Retrospective
51 Plays2 days ago
Welcome to Season 5 of Chatsunami! In this episode, I am joined by the wonderful WysteriaMoth to discuss a game from the mind of American McGee, that being Alice: Madness Returns. But does this game still hold up 13 years later? Why do Satsu and Moth admire this game? And can they stop the Infernal Train from destroying Chatsuland?! All this and more on the very first episode of Season 5!
Disclaimer: Hello everybody and welcome to Season 5 of Chatsunami. Before we get into this one, I just want to warn people that this episode contains discussions of themes that some people may find upsetting. This includes discussions of mental health, trauma, and exploitation. Listener discretion is advised.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to Season 5 of Chatsunami. Before we get into this one, I just want to warn people that this episode contains themes that some people may find upsetting. This includes discussions of mental health, trauma and exploitation. Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:21
Speaker
Wow, I can't believe we're recording season 5 in Chatsuland! Look at how amazing this all is! It's so colourful and whimsical and delightfully chaotic! So vibrant and beautiful! Oh and everything's on fire!
00:00:39
Speaker
And everything's on fire! Okay, Moth. What are you doing here? Did you get an invite to Chatsuland as well? Wait, whoa, whoa, Chatsuland. Oh, no, no, no, this is uh-oh land. You know where nightmares, scuff, muted mics, all of the greats of the podcast world come to play. Uh-oh.
00:00:59
Speaker
Oh, you see, you're already in the spirit! You get it! Well, at least I've got a cosy topic to cover today. Alison, wait a minute, why does my copy of Alison Wonderland look different?
00:01:15
Speaker
Oh, Satsu, Satsu, Satsu, you'll find that out. Quick enough, my friend. At least that's not the Tim Burton version. Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:01:31
Speaker
Hallo everybody and welcome to the very first episode of Season 5. My name's Satsunami and joining me today amongst this utterly chaotic wonderland is none other than the one and only wonderful Moth herself, it is Listeria Moth. Moth, welcome back to the 5th season of Chatsunami. Listen, I am so excited to be here and I can't believe of all people you asked little old me to be the first episode. What on earth were you thinking? Well, I asked Andrew. He said he was busy. I asked Martin McAllister. He said he was in the middle of pinning someone for the champion bill or something. I don't know. I couldn't really hear him through the screams. I asked
00:02:14
Speaker
Adam, but he's a sandwich, couldn't really get through to him. I asked Toaster, again, toasting, so you were my fifth favourite person. Aww, yay! At least I've been the top seven. High seven. Yes. This interview's over. It's like we're done. How dare you? We're done professionally.
00:02:38
Speaker
But no, jokes aside, I honestly couldn't have thought of anybody better. Not just for the particular topic we're gonna be talking about today, but to be honest, ah just in general, because you have been on past episodes before, mainly Sonic, and would you believe this is not a Sonic themed day episode? I know, it's so weird. ah I know, ugh, I feel dirty just saying that. I know, right? It's like, I wanna go home, Mom, I'm scared, pick me up!
00:03:04
Speaker
This isn't where I'm supposed to be. This isn't Green Hill Zone. No, listen, listen, that that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. Anywhere but Green Hill Zone, for the love of God, please. Anywhere but Green Hill. So, of course, you may be wondering, if we're not talking about Sonic like the nerds we are, what are we going to be talking about? Well, at the start of the year, due to a mixture of intrigue and peer pressure from Moth herself, I decided to jump into the world of American McGee's Alice in Wonderland.
00:03:33
Speaker
I have to say, for me personally, I had seen this game floating about quite a lot. You know, when you get a game that you always see the cover of, but you never really have had the chance to play it. oh yeah Yeah, I always remember seeing Alice in her blue dress and everything and holding the k knife and I thought, wow, that looks like a violent game and then continue to play Sonic. so like the man child I am. So yeah, it's always kind of been there in the peripheries of my gaming backlog, but of course it came on to Game Pass. Thank you Game Pass. Again, this episode is not sponsored by Game Pass, but thank you so much anyway.
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah it was quite interesting to go through it, play it and honestly it was such a wild experience but flipping it back onto you, before we dive into this very intriguing and just absolutely incredible game, what was your exposure to this game? How did you find out about Dutel? When I was but a wee little moth, I shouldn't say like wee little moth, I was like an early teenager. I was looking at different art styles and stuff like that because I was a budding artist and that sort of thing. And so games, anime, comics, that sort of thing was always such a huge inspiration for me. Believe it or not, Sonic the Hedgehog being one of the biggest ones, like drawing Sonic characters was the start of my art.
00:04:56
Speaker
And, but I wanted to like, you don't want to draw the same thing all the time, you know? So I decided I wanted to try some new things. And as a little alt kid who didn't get a chance to express that side of myself, if I would have had it my way, I would have been that girl who wore the copious amounts of eyeliner, who wore the long dresses, that sort of thing. That would have been me in a heartbeat, but I was not one of those girls as much as I wanted to be. And so I just remember seeing artwork of this character, Alice. And of course everybody knows Alice in Wonderland, right? Most kids, if like you're from our generation, you know the Disney film, that sort of thing. You probably read Alice in Wonderland when you were in English class, that sort of thing. But I have always been a sort of huge fan of reimaginings of things. So... When I saw this art of Alice and she was just so starkly different, you know, the entire mood of the image was just direct opposite, diametrically opposed to everything that I knew Alice to be. Wide-eyed, wonder, staring up in awe at the world around her, whereas this Alice was darker, grittier, moodier. And then you combine the fact that she had those killer boots
00:06:06
Speaker
Oh my god, I wanted a pair of those boots my whole teenage life. I wanted a pair of those boots. I still want a pair of those boots, Satsu. To this day, I still would love a pair of platform boots like that. Are you kidding me? Well, today's your lucky day. Check under your chair. We got you to the demonias.
00:06:26
Speaker
I was going to say, is that why you're sitting oddly high tonight? I mean, it might be, it might be. But no, so like my first exposure to Alice wasn't even playing the game, it was just seeing the artwork, especially in places like DeviantArt and that sort of thing. Like, oh god, the art you would find in DeviantArt. Especially when Madness Returns came out was unreal. Mind you, at that point I believe Madness Returns was 2011, if I remember Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, I graduated high school in 2011. So that game was coming out just as I was coming into my adulthood, but I never actually played the game properly until a few years later. So I was already obsessed with the sort of style of the cut scenes and stuff like that. I'd seen videos of them and things like that, but I never actually got the opportunity to play the game myself. It was on my radar. I thought that I would have enjoyed it, but then there were just other games that I was playing at the time that just had my attention more kind of like you in that way. It's like there were just other games that had my attention at the time. And for as much as I loved the aesthetic of the game, I never really got around to playing it. So when I finally did play it in my adulthood, I actually ended up playing the first game as well, because in madness returns, especially the digital editions and stuff like that, they have the whole first.
00:07:36
Speaker
American McGee's Alice game just inside the game as well. So before I even touched Madness Returns, I played that first game, jank and all. And let me tell you, it shaped me in ways I didn't think that it would because just ah the topics that it goes over. And I found a strange solidarity in Alice Little. And I think that that's a rather common theme for people who consume the media and just come to love it as much as I do. Because I have to say, and it's something you touched on there perfectly, is the fact of how starkly different her design is. And I have to say, I think I was saying this to you as I was playing it, but I was absolutely blown away by the style of this character. Because you're completely right, my first exposure to Alice in Wonderland was the animated Disney film where As you know, it's a bright-eyed blonde-haired girl who goes into this magical world. She has a wonderful adventure, bar the part where her head nearly gets chopped off, but let's not go into that.
00:08:38
Speaker
and but you have this wide-eyed and wonderful wood adventure and you know absolutely loved the films when i was younger because of the character drove our on love the water wood because it was so weird and crazy but it was just weird enough that he got drawn to it it wasn't like it was It was whimsical. It was an idealized version of a world of wonder in that place. This is why it was called Wonderland. You know, like these were all things that would attract a girl, Alice's age in that case. And if it attracted a girl of that age, and of course it would attract other children of that age. Alice in Wonderland is just one of those stories that is timeless for its way of instilling this idea of wonder, but also with an underlying tone of don't let yourself go too far into this wonderland. Staying grounded is important as well. It's almost like a warning to not let yourself just become too invested in your inner world. And ever since that very iconic Disney film, we've had so many interpretations of it. There's been live-action versions, which I have to say are absolutely wild. I don't know if some of the live-action ones came before the Disney one, but either way, just absolutely crazy. You've had them, you even had a Care Bears one. I'm sure you've had K-dramas as well. that are loosely based off of it. Listen, in some things, there are whole ass, especially in some shows, like some animated shows. The one that I remember the most distinctly is if from surprisingly enough from an anime, of all things. Or on High School Host Club had an Alice in Wonderland episode. Really? Yeah, it actually did. It had a whole ass Alice in Wonderland episode where the main character was having a dream, I think. And she dreamed this whole scenario of all the characters that she was surrounded with were characters from Alice in Wonderland and she was Alice and it was just...
00:10:26
Speaker
It's amazing to see how much one character and one concept can influence so many different kinds of media from so many different places. I mean it is such a timeless story I have to say. The fact that people are interpreting it different ways and making it their own is just absolutely incredible and this is something that I was talking to you about before we started. recording tonight, but the fact is that Alice in Wonderland, or Alice particularly in the whole world, is in the public domain. So in theory, Alice could easily be endorsed in Chatsunami. Please do. ah Approved by Alice Little. Take that to Wonderland. and Put that in your caterpillar hookah and smoke it.
00:11:11
Speaker
But yeah, I was talking to you about different interpretations of this character and as you said, this is at least the one we're going to be talking about today. It's a very dark, it's very gritty, it's drawn from real life trauma and things. It's so dark and usually I absolutely – and I'm going to put my cards on the table here, are hopefully not to attract the Queen of Arts here. But I absolutely hate, hate, hate when certain properties or certain people usually take a childhood character and then turn them into a horror villain or a horror character. And usually I think this is more to do with influence from current films like Winnie the Pooh's Blood and Honey with the new Peter Pan film that's coming out as well. Wait, what?
00:12:04
Speaker
Hello? Yeah, there's a pizza pan film coming out. Are you... wait, and they're making it like gritty? Well, it's basically a guy who kidnaps children, so yeah. yeah I mean... Yes and no, I know. ah Usually I hate that and I think it's just because I don't like the idea of taking something that was for kids and kind of and innocent and it's not even having a clever spin on it. It's just making it purposefully just really dark in tone, like the whole turning away the poo into a whole serial killer whole thing. Like, yeah, I can absolutely agree with that. I think that's a little bit silly. But when I saw this particular game and I saw Alice Lidle for the first time, I kind of looked at her in the eyes in the menu. I was like, hmm, I'm watching you.
00:12:51
Speaker
This better not be just a senseless gorefest and everything, and thankfully I was proved so, so wrong. i'm honestly
00:13:08
Speaker
honestly it is an absolutely brilliant game and I know I've basically given away what I thought about the game and the intro but I think that's the perfect place to really jump into our own wonderland here so before we jump in, are you ready Moth to take on this game? Oh always, always. So as you might have heard at the beginning, this episode is going to contain some very sensitive topics. So honestly, I would not blame you if you decide to skip this episode, if those type of topics aren't something you like to listen to. Usually we like to have a bit of a laugh and chat tsunami and don't get me wrong, we like to keep it lighthearted, but we also know when to keep it serious when the time demands it. So this is your fair warning before we dive into the themes and things like that. But without any further ado, Let's jump in and see what's so special about Alice in Madness Returns. Welcome to Chatanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime in general interest. Previously on Chatanami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. I'm trapped. I know what's real.
00:14:51
Speaker
Go to Wonderland.
00:14:59
Speaker
I'll set you free, Alice. Is it mad to pray for better hallucinations?
00:15:06
Speaker
I've not come back here looking for a fight. That's a pity. One's certainly looking for you. The destruction of Wonderland is the destruction of me. Now a new evil reigns. Help me out. We need your help. What's happening? I'm in hell. There is no method in this madness.
00:15:28
Speaker
The face of evil in the heart of darkness. Perfect. Let the madness begin!
00:15:40
Speaker
That was a really deep hole and we are back! We were falling for ages, we have ages! I actually stopped off for a snack. Listen, who knew they put a Gregs down here, right? I know, I'm really surprised and I'm really proud of you for saying Gregs and not!
00:15:55
Speaker
What did you think I was going to say? Dollar General? I don't know. Dollar General's on the other way. Anyway. Yeah, it splits off into a fork. Listen, American McGee, if you're listening to this, hire us. listen, write this down, write this down, we're geniuses. This is solid gold. So let's get into Alice Madness Returns, which of course is a game full of very mature and gritty themes and quite honestly, and this will get something like a weird starting point, but I feel as if I have to start here, some of the best platforming I think I've ever played in a game. I genuinely think that the platforming is just so fluid, it's so good to control, you feel so satisfied when you make those jumps, you work out the puzzles. Everything about this game in terms of a technical perspective for me personally just absolutely clicks together. But how did you feel about it? You know, I'm actually really in the same boat for that, because again, this game came out in 2011. Games that have come out even after that nowadays still can sometimes show their age, you know, like the mechanics didn't age well, the controls are a little bit janky, that sort of deal. But I feel like in particular, Madness Returns specifically, the controls were just so intuitive, everything responded the way that felt right. And mechanically, even over 10 years later, it's It's still a solid, solid actual platforming experience. Honestly, I was so surprised at how well everything played and as you said, especially at the fact that this is a game from 2011 and you think this game shouldn't really play as well as it does. Even the combat, the combat was absolutely fantastic as well.
00:17:41
Speaker
yeah because what I was surprised that, especially at the beginning, is when you get every weapon. So you get the Warple Blade, you get the Hobby Horse that you can upgrade, you get the Teapot Cannon, which was a favourite of mine, but my ultimate favourite, the only one that beats out is the Pepper Grinder. Oh, the Pepper Grinder. See, when I first got that, I was genuinely expecting, oh, like a wee dainty. Oh, they're going to seize themselves to death. No, this was like something out of doom. Uh-huh. No, listen, that is a whole Gatling gun. oh yeah That is a whole Gatling gun. Whatever is on the other end of that thing is getting the hate thrown directly at its face. And I think that's another thing that I really just so appreciate about how the game plays is that you feel the weight and the heft of the different weapons you're using. You feel the impact the pepper grinder has. You can feel the way the hobby horse just clobbers what's in front of you. You can feel the buildup of the teapot cannon. You feel it all. And it's not even like in a haptic sort of way because, you know, that sort of thing wasn't a thing back then, at least for this game anyway. but it was just something about the way that the game actually played and the way that the controls worked out was that even down to the animations, everything felt natural. It felt organic. It's like, yes, this is something that could absolutely be grounded in reality the way that this feels. I have to say, I've played FPS games recently and the amount of times I've been really angry that I get what's essentially just a pea shooter and you know, you've got a huge gun and it goes pew pew pew and you're like, really? Is this all you've got to offer? Bring me another weapon, Chaplain. but This one is too puny. I did not ask for the noisy cricket to bring me the big one. Honestly, this might be a bit topical slash dating the episodes considering the new space marine game is out right now, but I genuinely would take that paper grinder into battle. For the Emperor, that is how beefy it is. and the sound design around it as well. It just sounds hateful. Oh it does. It is amazing. The sound design's amazing. As I said, the platforming, the gameplay, the combat. Again, it just, it surprised me how well this game meshed together. But before we get into the story and the themes of this game, there's one slight bugbear that I have to draw attention to and I'm curious to hear if you felt the same way. So, This is something that, and this is me taking it from a YouTube comment that I found from American McGee who was replying to a video essay of the game and in one of the videos the content creator had said that they felt as if the game dragged on at parts to which American replied that apparently it was a review of
00:20:30
Speaker
think it was Eurogamer who had marked the game 50 out of 100 and said there were certain bits that dragged on for too long and because of that he started seeing the more and more critics start to say that. I think this is a gorgeous visually this game is absolutely gorgeous as well and it just blends into that whole artistic gothic style Oh, the visuals in the game I could go on for hours about, but go ahead. Oh, absolutely. But I have to say, I felt personally there are one or two levels that maybe go on for a little bit long, but before I go into that, what were your thoughts? Did you feel the same when you were first playing it or...? You know, I actually didn't. I didn't feel that way at all, mostly because I found myself so invested and engrossed in these worlds that we were inhabiting in Alice's consciousness and her psyche. And sure, maybe they could have shaved a few minutes off of it, right? But in a way, I almost feel like the length of the levels for those certain levels that might have seemed a little bit long. To me, when I first played them, it was long enough for me to sort of forget that there was another world outside of Wonderland. Wonderland was almost overlaid on top of the city of London as we were navigating it, right? And the longer I sort of spent in Wonderland with Alice going through all of these areas and things like that and going through everything that we were going through, whenever we would be brought back into London, brought back to reality, it was stark. It was disarming. It's like I got so used to being in and Wonderland that coming back to reality coming back to London to the dirt and the grime and everything like that. It felt very stark. It felt very fish out of water sort of thing. And in a way, I feel like that that was a very intentional decision that American made. And I again, this is just my own sort of conjecture on it But because I got so immersed, because I got so invested in it, and because I felt the way that I did whenever we would have those moments of lucidity in between the delirium that is Wonderland, I felt it was like a very intentional decision to make those segments longer, to make the return to Wonderland more distinct.
00:22:37
Speaker
and to make it more, I don't want to say alarming because it's not alarming. It's like having a bucket of cold water thrown on you, right? A sudden sharp snap back to reality. And for me, I don't think that they were too long at all. I think, again, it was just all down to the storytelling and it was just another element of the narrative that pushed the weight and the gravity of Alice's mental state in the game. because I have to say what I did love about the progression of the game as a whole was just the fact that the further you got into it, as you alluded to there, you had the slow deterioration of Alice's mental state and you just had of course all the blatant visual cues of that where you started off in the very fantastical wonderland and then you went to the more grimy industrial area at one point you're under the ocean at one point as well you're in the Queensland then eventually we get to the one at the very end which we'll save till later which still haunts me after playing it but the fact that I built this way as well and do you mind if I jump into a quick summary No, please do. Please do. So just to recap for the listeners, this story takes place after American McGee's original Alice, where you're navigating through Wonderland, you defeat the Queen of Hearts, and you finally leave the asylum that you have been lying catatonic in. And then at the very beginning of this game, you play as Alice Liddell, who quite frankly has become one of my favourite characters in gaming.
00:24:11
Speaker
I think that she is such a well-realised character and it could have been so easy to write her in a way that, oh, she just rolls her eyes, she's sarcastic all the time, doesn't care about anything, doesn't take the world around her as seriously as she should, but everything is handled so damn well in this game and, as I said, we follow her journey through Well, really her recovery journey where she's getting treated by the Doctor. Throughout the game she keeps coming across visual cues that trigger her relapse into Wonderland which is this utter defence mechanism to the world around her and you're completely right. Throughout the game you flip between Alice as she's trying to find out who burned her house and inadvertently killed the rest of her family. institutionalised her and then it flips back to the grimy streets of London. Honestly it made my heart sink to be honest because, and this is me speaking as a guy in 2024, I feel as if even if I lived at that time I probably still would have been better off than how women were perceived back then because it was just absolutely heartbreaking because when of course you realise that this is very much a Victorian setting that Let's face it, women weren't favoured as highly as men, so they were looked down on. Their concerns and outspokenness were treated more of as a mental illness. Alice is very much a young girl who speaks her mind. She's very confident in a lot of regards. it's just absolutely horrific that her safe place, Wonderland, is a place that she's obviously fighting to save, she's fighting to keep a grasp on it, but she has all the power there, and of course that's where the majority of the main gameplay where you platform, where you have those combat sections, those are the areas that you have power, but as soon as Alice is ripped back into reality again, you have zero power and of course it makes it all the more terrifying that as a young girl in Victorian London who again it was horrible just walking through the streets and seeing older and I think American McGee really did this intentionally you know the big hulking distorted men who were leaning over our through the entire game it was just absolutely horrible to witness
00:26:43
Speaker
And again, it's something that I think was done, I don't want to say well as in I wanted you to see her go through these hardships, but it wasn't done in a grotesque way. It wasn't done just for shock value. It was grounded. It was grounded in its presentation and it did not shy away from the fact that as a young woman in Victorian ages, especially a young woman who was mentally ill went through what she did because mental illness, especially back in those days was often just written off as hysteria. Oh, it's just women being women. You know, this is why we can't let women do anything for themselves because they just fall apart. They just go into hysterics, you know? The fact that it was presented in such a way that this world absolutely is dangerous and threatening and scary to her, but she still has to navigate it because she survived. You know, she's still here. She can't just allow herself to wallow. And I think that especially early game, there's still just so many parallels between the world and between London and between Wonderland. And that's very, very intentional. It sets the stage very, very well that this Wonderland, as you're traversing it, is also you traversing reality. But like you said, in Wonderland, she has the power. She has the power. She can defend herself. She can do what's right and do what is just. And, but the thing is, is that one thing that I think that the game is very good at is not shying away from the difficult topics.
00:28:11
Speaker
but presenting them in a way that is not overtly crass. It isn't being heavy-handed and laying it on thick for the sake of it. It is handling in a way that is respectful, but not sugarcoating it. It's giving it the space that it needs to be what it is, and I think that that's what makes the narrative that the game gives all the more compelling. Honestly I couldn't agree with you more there. It is definitely a game that doesn't shy away from what is trying to tell you as the player because at face value it is a fun platformer. You can't deny that oh it's great to slash the enemies and jump from here to there but the more you delve into this utter contrast and something that I do love and apologies for this minor side tangent here but something that I love as well is and it was something I mentioned before just the visual style of this game but in particular and it was something I messaged you about is the outfits in this game. So throughout every single level, you get a different dress to do. And so you get the traditional blue dress with the white apron. And then in the industrial one, it's more a kind of steampunk dress. And again, the kind of technical apron. You get the floaty dress when you go underwater. For the Queen of Hearts one, you get a more regal looking one. You also get the very much oriental inspired
00:29:43
Speaker
I don't want to say it's not really a kimono, but you know that kind of... It's the fabrics. It's the fabrics and the way that the dress is draped that just gives it that very distinct silhouette. It's not trying to be kimono. It's not trying to be traditional garb of any kind, yeah but the patterns are there, the colors and the prints are there. And I think that even just doing that is enough to give the impression of the kind of area you are traversing in that moment. Now it does an absolutely brilliant job of that because as I said every single level puts you in a different dress and of all the things that I thought I was gonna get invested in in this game this wasn't one of the things because genuinely I was just blown away by how much detail was in them and how it really served a narrative purpose as well. It wasn't just, oh, it's a different level, therefore let's put Alice in a different dress. Oh, doesn't she look pretty? You know, it wasn't because of that. It was because there was a narrative reason for that. Cause I think that another thing that I really enjoy about that sort of aspect is it's such a minute thing, right? Because you could easily write it off as like, Oh, we're going to have her match the environment that she's in. You know, cute. We love that. But one other aspect of the game that I really appreciate and it's something that I didn't really quite clock until I had gone to therapy myself. and had started going through my own journey when it came to improving my mental health and overcoming things that had happened to me when I was much younger. And it's like, because again, I come from a background of trauma. So I resonate so much with Alice's story here. This of course is never going to be perfectly one to one ideal match like, Oh, yes, she's pretty much me. No, I can relate to her on the journey she had to go to to get to where she is by the end of the game. One of the things that sort of clicked with me as I was going back and playing the game, especially after I had gone to therapy, because I started to play through with the game again, but didn't I didn't quite get back to it. And so one thing that sort of, because you know, you talk about the platforming and jumping through these levels and fighting these monsters and things like that. But the fact that because you know, very easily, she could have gone through the whole game just in that blue dress, you know, very easily she could have done. But the fact that she changed outfits for each area that she went to and that outfit just so perfectly embodied where she was made her blend into the scene flawlessly. You know, like she didn't stand out. She is involved in the area that she is in. She is an active participant in this part of her mind, of her psyche, of wherever she is mentally here, right? She is actively involved in it. She is actively experiencing it.
00:32:09
Speaker
And I think that that is such a clever way to frame the game because as the game progresses and things like that, you know, it gets worse and then it gets worse and then it gets worse until finally there is a resolution. Finally, there is a turning point. There is a breaking point. And I think that having her in these dresses and actively participating in it is her working through these aspects. of her trauma in real time. This is a way for her to be processing what she's going through, what she is feeling, but we see it in a visual medium rather than an internal dialogue because this is how she is experiencing it. At the end of the day, as I said, there's lots of themes to dive into for this game, but I feel as if the journey of recovery and I don't want to say self-realization but more self identity trying to piece her fractured sanity back together because we do see that there is this very malicious doctor who is trying to manipulate her mind, is trying to twist it and use hypnosis to suppress those kinds of things. It's just absolutely horrific seeing this person in a position of power try to influence these children and in particular Alice, because Alice is a older girl. I think she's supposed to be 19 at this point. But she's been in the asylum of catatonic for a while after the fire. I don't know exactly how long, right? Because the whole idea, right, is that Alice, the source of her psychotic break was her entire family died in house fire. And she ended up confessing to being the one responsible for the fire. Or she at least believed that there was survivor's guilt there. And so she internalized the idea that because she survived, it is her fault. That couldn't be further from the truth. And it's only in the second game that you realize that actually, She's had this doctor, I think she's had this doctor pretty much from the jump when she came out of the asylum trying his absolute damnedest to instill this idea of, oh, memory is pain, just forgo the memory, leave it behind.
00:34:14
Speaker
The only way you can move forward is to just completely remove this aspect of your life, of your psyche, of your history from your mind. Because if you don't even remember it happened, you'll be fine. And that couldn't be further from the truth. And I think that Alice instinctually knew that. And that's why Wonderland reared its ugly head. Because you can't run from things like that. You can't leave things like that unspoken about. You can't leave any room. for anything to go unprocessed, untreated, any of that, because it will come back. It will come back in ways that are dire and can feel like the end of the world. And her return to Wonderland was the greatest, starkest example of that happening in real time. Because I have to say, although I definitely haven't gone through anything as dramatic as what transpires in the game, I'm very much a firm believer of taking the good and bad parts of your life and realising that they shape
00:35:18
Speaker
shape who you are as a person because things might not turn out as well, you might have regrets and things or bad things might happen. At the end of the day, those are the things that shape you into the person that you will become. Having someone who is using that as a tool to say, oh no, don as you said, oh no, don't worry about that, forget it, it's not important. It's just such a horrific thing to think about that someone could easily just dismiss what makes Alice the way she is, you know, this whole tragedy about her losing her whole family before her eyes being told that she was probably to blame even though she wasn't. It is just such a horrific thing to watch this grown man pray on the mind of this very vulnerable child and I know she is 19 but I keep saying child because at the end of the day that's essentially what she is and this world all that should be protecting her that should be trying to say you've gone through this horrific ordeal and I know that is very much a hindsight thing of looking back on from our point of view with modern morals and things like that but even then this is a society that should have been protecting her and yet they of course failed greatly which is
00:36:35
Speaker
the true order of this. But one thing that I think is really important to remember is that looking at it through the lens of a Victorian setting, right? People who were mentally ill weren't really seen as people anymore because they were considered all of the horrible things. They weren't a functional person. And if you weren't a functional person, people would often just sort of gawk at you almost like, Oh, you know, let's go look at the zoo animals, you know, that sort of thing. But that's a person. Besides that, it's not just the fact that as a person, she was a child when she lost her family. She was a child in the asylum when she was catatonic, and I think she had been working for this doctor for maybe a year after she got out of the asylum, I think?
00:37:16
Speaker
She was 18 when she left the asylum, 19 by the time of the second game. And she had spent all of that time in that asylum wrestling with her own mind. Again, when you're somebody who is like that, you're not treated like a person. So it's like that's only going to compound the issue, I think.
00:37:33
Speaker
And again, it's very much a romanticised period on one side. This is like the two sides of the coin when it comes to the Victorian period of history. On the one side, it's very romanticised and, oh, look at this dashing gentleman, etc. Oh my God, was that an ankle?
00:37:50
Speaker
And on the flip side, you've got Oliver Twist. You've got this horrible putting down the working class kind of society and playing on the vulnerable and check the ripper and whatnot. Making a spectacle of suffering. Exactly. Exactly.
00:38:06
Speaker
It's a horrific setting, is what I'm trying to get at. It's a horrific setting for, as we spoke about before, the way that women were treated, and especially if Alice is both a young girl and she is a child, she's absolutely helpless. And it is so disturbing. And I know I keep going round in circles, so apologies for that, but it's ah crazy time and history to think back on, to sit there and think you know nowadays that hopefully anyway things are a bit better. But I feel as if that adds on perfectly and just punctuates how horrifying this is because it could have been so easy for McGee to just say, oh here's a gribbly monster with big hands, and don't get me wrong those are in the game but Oh yeah, but they're symbols. They are there very intentionally. And the thing is, right? That's the thing is that American Mickey was so careful to craft this world that Alice is navigating and making points that are so easy to sort of while you're getting caught up in the whimsical
00:39:08
Speaker
And I guess whimsical is the word I absolutely would use here is because a lot of the, just the way the environments are constructed is just downright stunning. Just visually, this game is a marvel. But then every so often, you know, you find a little piece of reality hidden amongst the set dress. There's always something around to remind you that none of this is real. The only person that this is real to is Alice, and that's why you see it through her eyes. And that in itself is quite scary as well, because while we see from Alice's perspective that she is helpless in the real world, she also is kind of helpless in a way to really what Wunderland is throwing at her. Because as you said, this is her world. This is her responsibility to clean it up. And if she doesn't have the means or the skills, as it were, not putting myself down for missing those few jobs, but... If she doesn't have the skills to get through it, then she is essentially going to crumble in her own mind. She's just going to be trapped in Wonderland forever. There's no winning almost in this game. She does manage to resolve what's going on with Wonderland but honestly it's just quite heartbreaking to see it the further you go on because it goes from oh what's the mystery of Alice in her burned-down house to oh god that's the mystery. It's very much a slow burner I will say and something that we were talking a bit earlier about the pacing of the game and such is that yeah there are things that do drag on for quite some time but
00:40:43
Speaker
Personally, for me, while there were one or two moments, maybe I thought, I don't know if that's going on for too long. At the same time, I never really thought of it as a bad thing. It allowed you to at least soak in the environment, just the beauty of it, the beauty that Alice could conjure in her mind. And it's not just a sarcastic young girl who's like, oh, I'm going to fight the big evil train kind of thing, which And I just say, and maybe this is just the space marine head on me, but that does look like something that affords decay. The whole thing about the infernal train, right? I absolutely love that sort of metaphor that it represents. The train itself is just such a great example, like the fact that it looks like a cathedral. There's a whole idea of boarding the infernal train and having to like face all of those you've come across along the line. It's almost like a confessional, isn't it? And to me, it was also a sort of representation of the act of self-destruction. allowing yourself to return to unhelpful behaviors, things that are not benefiting you and not serving you, but because they are comfortable, they are familiar. So you end up going back there when things are getting to the point where they're getting a bit too heavy. And it is devilishly easy to slip back into those old ways sometimes, disarmingly easy sometimes. It's something I struggle with even. And so having that metaphor of the infernal train coming through and threatening Wonderland, threatening to tear it down and everything like that, it's also is kind of like not only is Alice trying to fight for the citizen, not only is Alice trying to fight for her own mind, she is fighting against her own mind because they say, you did this, this is your fault, you're the reason why the infernal train is here, it's self-destruction.
00:42:33
Speaker
And yeah, it's self-destruction brought on by the influence of the doctor, but it's a self-destruction nonetheless because she's ended up reverting back to this world that she used to cope with her trauma. It is such a powerful image though. You're completely right. It is that idea of her coming face to face with everything that she has come across and everything she has had to fight for in Wonderland. It's something that, as you said, it's a very, very common thing that I've seen that have to admit with people who they can't accept their own reality, whether it's as horrific or not as pleasant as they might hope it is and therefore they decide to retreat into themselves that you have days weeks and months where these particular people they don't reach out to anyone they don't want to be a burden they see themselves as the problem rather than the person who has been affected by these issues. Obviously it would have been a very short game if Alice said, well I'm just not going to talk to anyone, but I think that's just a real testament to McGee's writing. The fact that she's not someone who's willing to give up so easily because throughout the story there were many points where she could have easily submitted because there's the whole phrase, I don't know how far back it goes, but the whole phrase of children should be seen and not heard
00:43:58
Speaker
oh god yeah and you might think oh children should be obedient to their elders and things like that but of course as we learn later on these adults clearly do not have these children's best interests at heart which is absolutely disgusting because Because of that, we see someone who is not only fighting for her own imaginary land of Wonderland, she is fighting for a better future for herself. and Because she has the fortitude in Wonderland, that of course transfers to how she conducts herself in real life. I have to admit, the one scene that really got me, and I don't know if it got you as well, was when she goes to see her old nanny at the Oh, I think it's a brothel. I initially after my thought it was just a sleazy bar, but I think it's a little of colony, colony unfortunately. But yeah she goes upstairs and there's a guy that's clearly just hitting her and she of course tries to confront the guy and he just smacks her so hard that she falls unconscious while the place goes up in flames. And get really hammered home because the last couple of levels I've been, you know, soaring through the air, there's this majestic young girl who's cutting away through all these foes and then all of a sudden your power is in autonomy as a whole, it's just stripped away from you and you are helpless again and it was just tragic but did you feel the same way in that scene? I absolutely agree. It's sort of one of the clearest examples as to why Alice retreats into Wonderland. It's one of the clearest examples as to why Wonderland even exists. Because, yeah, she went through a trauma, she went through a tragedy of losing her parents and everything like that, and Wonderland was her way to cope.
00:45:40
Speaker
But then you look at the world outside of Wonderland and it's like, who would actually want to be here? Who would actually want to live in a place like this? And especially with that scene as well in particular, it's just like, who would actually want to be here? But I think that another aspect of Alice's character that I really appreciate is that she's very much a walking duality. She is two different people walking in two different worlds at the same time. And slowly but surely, as the game goes on, the line between those two versions of herself, those two realities that she exists in, grows thinner and thinner and thinner. And I think watching that sort of transformation of hers as time goes on and as the game goes on, as she remembers more and as she encounters more and she learns more, I think That is just such a, it's just displayed so beautifully. It's displayed so beautifully and the story is just crafted so masterfully around that idea that she is two halves of a whole that is slowly coming together to meet as one. And it's only when her self-actualization comes at the end of the game, it's only then does she have the strength
00:46:53
Speaker
to take matters into her own hands, to not let the world around her dictate her action, to not let her mind slip into Wonderland to try to live in blissful ignorance. No, Wonderland and London are the same place now, and this is how she navigates it. And of course, we can elaborate on that later a bit more as well, but you can't sum her character up in a handful of words, and I really love that about her. She's so complex, but she's complex in the best possible way. And I think that the way that they handle that with her, especially you're talking about the scene with her nanny in the brothel where she's just laid out by this man. It's so powerful because I think if I remember correctly, that's one of the last times something like that happens to her in the game. Yeah I think you're right. So that was a turning point for her I think and I think that was what started the gap to close. Because the only other scene that comes close to that and again it's horrific is when you're in the asylum of um as Alison you're bound with the straight jacket and you're forced to wander about and that's kind of a mix between reality and what's came before because you get Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum who are the orderlies trying to give her lobotomy which again is really horrific and you have to wander through just absolutely helpless and she just doesn't look like Alice anymore. Golan is this confident young woman and here is this woman who her head's been shaven, she's been bound, she's She's not a person. Exactly. They've dehumanized her. And the fact is that whole sequence takes place in Wonderland. That's not reality. None of that actually happened. Alice never actually left Wonderland for that one. And it's almost like Wonderland showing her what reality will become for her if she doesn't do something now. That is the visualization of her resolve, I think.
00:48:53
Speaker
Can I just give a huge shout out to the voice actress for Alice for a second? Oh, I was hoping that you would. The voice performances in this game are so good. I mean, they're all amazing, but Susie Brann, who does Alice's voice and unfortunately, as far as I could see in their IMDB page, I don't think she's done much since. She's done kind of the odd thing here and there, but She is absolutely incredible in this game. She is quite frankly one of the core reasons why Alice works in this game because I think McGee's design of Alice I think is perfect and I think that the dialogue was written really well. Oh the dialogue is one of my favourite things about these games. and even at the very beginning the opening line just still sticks with me where you get a recap about what happened about the house burning down. Alice is looking very cutesy on this boat with the white rabbit and all of a sudden the faces start to melt off and you're like Jesus Christ, hard performance of the line where she says my wonderland's crumbling, my mind is in ruin and it's that panicked, horrified, just so many emotions at once, just combined perfectly. She does a fantastic job and I cannot stress that enough. Oh, it's gut-wrenching. It's actually gut-wrenching, and I applaud her for her performance. She embodied Alice in a way that I feel like few characters have since. The one that I would compare it to is, oh, is her name Jen Taylor? I want to say her name is Jen Taylor, I could be wrong. Halo 3, Cortana. The level Cortana, when you're going through high charity to get Cortana back, her back and forth with the grave mind. all that performance was so stunning and I would equate that opening from Madras Returns to a moment like that. The performance is just stellar. I do think that because of that it makes it more immersive for the player and I don't mean that in a bad way of old Giggin putting the boots of this character. It's just absolutely incredible. She brings it to life honestly. I can't praise it enough to be honest. this
00:51:05
Speaker
I can't. Her performance and how she handled Alice is just what makes her such a great character because she embodies that duality so beautifully. And honestly, going back to what you were saying before, I cannot agree with you more on the fact that Alice is again one of these characters that I didn't go into the game expecting to appreciate as much as I did before I kind of thought, oh right, she's going to be generic protagonist, AJ Allis with a knife, that kind of thing. And by all means, that's the impression she initially gives. You know that old phrase, judging a book by its cover. Oh yeah, and it's really easy to do so because I mean, even just looking at the cover of the game, you know, it's just like, there's an impression made there. There's absolutely an impression made there. Because even in the old trailers for the game, some of them are really, really weird. It's like that kind of early CGI type things. And there's ones where she's having a tea party, then she jumps on the table and she stabs the teapot eye thing. And that kind of suggests a more, oh, it's going to be gory and gritty and it's going to be Alice fighting monsters in Wonderland.
00:52:15
Speaker
It doesn't really give the impression that it's going to be a psychological journey, as it were. But speaking of psychological journey, will we go into the rather horrific parts of this game? Oh, yeah. This is the last couple of worlds. I think the last major level in this game. I warned you. I remember when I was like, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it. And I saw that you were actually starting the game. I said, OK, just brace yourself for the last world. It's a doozy. Yeah, you did, actually.
00:52:44
Speaker
yeah I've got the receipts. I said, just brace yourself. Just brace yourself. It gets real. And the thing is, is that again, you were talking about like judging the book by the cover, you know, like you see the trailers, you see the cover, you get this sort of idea of the character like, oh, she's going to be unhinged. She's going to be going on a spree, that sort of thing that Alice is going to end up just doing terrible things and that sort of thing and fighting monsters in Wonderland. and probably tearing Wonderland down herself. If you haven't played the first game, you don't really have a sort of basis as to who the character is and just what you're getting into. And that's why I think when you actually play the game and you meet Alice Little as she is, it's unreal. Again, how fleshed out she is and how so organic. she feels as well. And I think that that's what makes this last world all the worse. This last major world that you have to traverse, I think it just makes it all the worse. You know, it just makes the impact of what you learn and what this world means as you traverse it all the more just it it still gives me a heebie jeebies to think about it. As I was saying before, you start off at least in the first level in Wonderland it's very bright and vibrant and then you get that combination of gritty London industrialism later on the further you venture in. The second level is deep under the sea and you get a very colourful vibrant look again. The third one's the Oriental Grove where you do have some beautiful this is something that I didn't mention before but you have some beautiful side-scrolling type missions where you're part of a painting. It's just absolutely gorgeous but the further of course you go and you get to Queensland as well which and this is again one of my other issues as much as I thought the executioner on that level was really creepy. I thought he was a pain in the ass because there was no way to avoid him when you were running away from him so he kept hitting you and I don't think that was an intentional choice. I think that was just him catching up way too early but you get mixes of both horror and whimsy and it all kind of matches together really well. I love the beginning of the Queensland level where you're in the sky and you're on the playing cards and things, that's absolutely gorgeous. But then we get to Dollhouse and this is the one, as you said, this is the one that you kept warning me about and, gotta say, was not prepared even after you warned me because I had, and again this is probably further spoilers here, but I had suspicions about the Doctor but I never really realised how deep the rabbit hole went for this. And of course, you come across these children who are absolutely caricatures of these victims. You know, you've got ones that have drills through the head with their brains exposed and some with and the further you go into the quote-unquote dollhouse, you have to fight these dolls through very, very horrible circumstances and you see a lot of the dolls that are placed in very compromising positions, which again just makes it all the more horrifying when you realise that it's not just about a doctor who's just really bad at his job and He just wants the problem to go away. He is actively manipulating these children to essentially sell them on and exploit them. Honestly, the way that he gets dealt with at the end, personally, not harsh enough. Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Usually I'm all for justice and things, but when you learn what he's done, honestly, and there should have been a second train.
00:56:17
Speaker
Yeah, I shouldn't laugh, but no, I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. It's hard to even think about, really, and especially like going through it. The dollhouse itself was already just so uneasy and not in the way of, oh, doll's creepy. No, not like that. No, it was just something about the entirety of that space just felt fundamentally wrong. Something just so deeply, instinctually in my very bones was telling me that this place is not right. And when the penny finally dropped, right, and it was laid out so clearly, like a pit just opens up in your stomach. It just opens up in your stomach. And Alice's mindset in that moment, learning truly what had happened. I mean, it's no wonder the game panned out the way that it did. And I agree there should have been a second train and a third train and a fourth train. See, in all honesty, the changes are just stopped, reversed, gone forward, reversed, and just kept going. Yeah, just a few times, just a few times. Something else to think about is, again, because, you know, I was talking about how the world's kind of converge, and then you think about the decision that she made in that moment, right? Yeah. What other choice could she have made? Because that is a respected man. An Oxford graduate, you know, that is a respected man. And again, a man. So even if she would have alerted the authorities to it, who were they going to believe? This respected, well-educated man or this girl currently wrapped up in her own hysteria again? Who was going to believe her? Who was going to believe her? and I think that is just the most heartbreaking thing that again they're callously devaluing how valuable a human life is in this particular setting because you see them essentially and I think they do have a line about it of treating them like cattle and you know you flip back and forth of And again, I'm not 100% on and how I feel about the Doctor being treated like a final boss. I'm kind of a bit in the fence about that because I feel as if the true horror is him being just this horrible, horrible person in reality. You know, you didn't have to have the Dollmaker, although granted the Dollmaker is horrible and does hammer in the point that he has taken these children, he has manipulated them to say, oh, you're troubled and
00:58:34
Speaker
you're safe here, don't worry about it and then selling them to the highest bidder. It is vile, it is just absolutely horrific and again I don't feel as if maybe it was necessary to have that big boss because they're real monsters in reality. He genuinely cannot get any worse than that. You could give him all the tentacles, all the arms and things and he would not come a fraction close to what he is in reality. And that's exactly it. The thing is, right? I think that for the sort of character that Alice is, it makes sense that he appeared that way because at the end of the day, you know, it wasn't just the fact that he's a terrible person, but this is the person who was the start of it all for her. This one man in front of her is the boogeyman that destroyed everything. It was the reason why she was catatonic. It was the reason that she's lost her family and that she's an orphan. It's the reason why her whole life is upended. And before then, she never had a face to put to that. It was always her own. That's why the Queen of Hearts in the first Alice game was a reflection of herself.
00:59:38
Speaker
in this monstrous, monstrous form. So for somebody whose mind works the way that it does, it only makes sense for her to finally figure out the one who is responsible for literally everything that she has had to go through in her lifetime now, and the way that her mind is fracturing, it only makes sense.
00:59:55
Speaker
that he is a monster in her mind. It only makes sense that he's a monster in her mind. And at least in that sort of setting, she can overcome him. She can defeat him. And I think that that is what pushes her to do what she does that day and feed him to the train. Because that's the only thing she can do in reality. Because again, even if she told the authorities, who are they going to believe? but I mean you make a completely valid point there that even if she did, no one would believe the quote unquote hysteria of a girl who is well known to the authorities as being hysterical and has these bouts of madness. No thanks to Dr Bumby over here. And again, it's just honestly one of the most, if not the, horrific part of the game.
01:00:42
Speaker
and it's really hard to get through because I think overall this game initially until this point you could probably recommend this game 100% but this is the part of the game where you have to say with a caveat why you're recommending the game you know you can't just go ahead and say oh it's you know an amazing game you're gonna have fun oh no because this is a really real issue oh yeah This is a very, and it's really, really fucking awful to say this, but this is stuff that happened. Again, not an exact one-to-one, but this is stuff that has happened. This is things that still happen sometimes, and it turns the stomach to think about it, but at least in that moment, you know, Alice was able to take her power back, and it's by no means the best outcome. Well, in one way it is, because, you know, that's one less, but it's It's a complicated issue, and it's a complicated resolution, and even then, you wouldn't necessarily say it's a happy ending for her, because by the end of it, you know, her fractured pieces have come together, but now she's living in a permanently distorted view of the world, where Wonderland and London now have merged to one. And that's not a healthy psyche. This is a whole new level that Alice is now going to have to learn to traverse the world with.
01:01:55
Speaker
The whole point of Wonderland is to provide a somewhat safe space for her where she can have tea, she can have all these things that a child really should be able to have and like a whimsical and safe place and of course now that she's older she gets to see a lot more of how reality and her developing adult mind is warping Wonderland as a whole. whether it's through the infernal train or just through her own personal experiences, and it is absolutely just, again, it's heartbreaking because it should be this refuge for her, and now it's a place where she has to constantly fight for her life, and she's fighting for her life in Wonderland, she's fighting for her life in real life, and when the walls just break down she's got nowhere to fall back on. That's the thing, because on the one hand maybe you could argue that this has made her
01:02:49
Speaker
a complete person in the sense that it's gone full circle and she's embracing yeah the power that she has as a person in Wonderland versus the helplessness that she has in the real world. But on the other hand, as she said, it's not a healthy mindset for her to indulge these delusions of, ah suppose, delusions of grandeur that she is this confident person. And I think that, you know, in theory, that is a good thing, but it's not a sustainable way to live. Mm-hmm, because yeah, she found her absolution, but at what cost? Yeah, just, it's not something that, and again, I just want to point out for quote-unquote legal reasons, but I'm not a trained psychologist or anything. I have studied psychology. I just want to point out But I am far from being an expert on the topic, but it does definitely feel as if her defence mechanism, the thing that she retreated into, has now become her reality. And the fact that these lines are now blurred is a very dangerous path forward indeed. especially for the way she's going to interact with the future and was even sadder as well. And I feel really sorry for the American McGee here as something we were talking about earlier about the fact that this is an EA game. They published the first game, they published the second game. We cannot get the third game, Alice Asylum, because EA hold the rights and they also refuse to create the game. or rather let American McGee create his vision of the game. They just said no, there's no real discernible reason. And what is heartbreaking for me as well to see is the fact that he has got... I think when I checked his Patreon, because this is something that I did, I checked to see what the status of it was if it was still ongoing and whatnot, that there's a lot of very somber... He's heartbroken. Yeah, as of this episode, he has locked to away his Instagram. He has locked to away his Twitter page, the Patreon. If you want to sign up to his Discord server, then you can only pay one dollar a month. But that won't contribute to getting access to it. It won't contribute to the projects itself, which is very much made clear. And what I found again terrible was that he had I think it was 414 pages of concept art, of the story. just It basically calls it a Bible of Alice content and it is so sad because I genuinely cannot imagine putting your soul, your effort into this character that he clearly adores, that he clearly has such a reverence for. Alice was a passion project. Alice was absolutely a passion project. And then for EA, just go, no, we don't want to make another one. There's no reason to make another one. And it's just like, why, though? Why? The games were successful. They had a compelling story. They had a dedicated fan base. There are still so many people who were so excited for Asylum and we were absolutely eating up every little thing that American Post is. Every post that we got of like the updated dress designs, what some of the enemies will look like, sneak peeks at the world. It was enthralling to see and then suddenly it's just all gone and we'll never get to finish Alice's story. This is going back to something that I went on Twitter at the time of playing this game. I went onto Twitter and said very kindly that you'd peer pressured me into this game.
01:06:21
Speaker
For legal reasons, that's a joke. But yeah, I'd say it's how you'd suggested this game. I had a free afternoon off. I thought, you know what? I'll give it a go. Why not? So I put out a tweet just saying this, and I actually got a surprising amount of really positive comments from people. So if you don't mind, I'm going to read out a few here. Please do, please do. So I've got one from Gardenfairy who said OMG this is my favourite game lately please tell me how it goes. A Vtuber by the name of Melfina said excellent game and one of my favourite fables in general. I hope you like it. J the engineer you says let's go probably one of my favorite games of all time. Interesting premise and all. The Myth Monsters podcast said, OMG, one of my all-time faves, half fun in chapter four. I'm assuming you mean with the executioner at the time. that was fun. See, and also as the executioner, I think more of the Stompy Stompies. Oh yeah, had the Stompy Stompies were great as well. You get to have your whole kaiju moment. Oh yeah, very true. And last but not least, we had a comment from, I don't know who this is, it's a wisteria moth.
01:07:34
Speaker
that said, enjoy your descent into madness there buddy. I don't know what she was on about, personal. I mean... I told you. You did. I told you. You weren't wrong. I wasn't. Listen, the day you sent me that message and said, hey, this game is on sale for like four quid, should I get it? Oh God, I went feral. Yeah, I actually felt you burst out the screen and you were like, get it, get it, get it. I was like, do it do it, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it now. Don't let your dreams be dreams. Do it. Fork over your money, funny man. I wish people would call me funny man in this podcast. but Listen, I just did. What do you want?
01:08:13
Speaker
I want to sort of get novel get again. But yeah, the fact is that, and you're self-encoded of course, but the fact is that all of these people, unprompted might add, went ahead and told me how much they loved this game in 2024. That is the kind of thing that if this was your regular cult classic, you might have one or two people saying it's okay you know I like the graphics I really like the gameplay but the fact that people are still saying that they love this game all these years later it's just absolutely incredible and it's a testament to what McGee can accomplish and I totally doubt that American McGee is listening to this podcast episode but see on the off chance that he is you should be extremely proud of this game and and you probably are but you should be extremely proud of what you've created here because this game is an absolute tour de force of storytelling, of gameplay, you know, because it is really hard to get gameplay and storytelling mixed together in such a coherent and interesting way and I think it does it absolutely perfectly. He really does.
01:09:23
Speaker
And I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit here and rub his ego by saying, oh, it's the perfect scheme, it's the bed. Because although I have maybe one or two minor issues with it, again, the emphasis is on the word minor because I genuinely do think that the characters are absolutely brilliant, they're haunting, they'll stay with you for Good, good. why oh The visuals of the game are just absolutely gorgeous. Quite frankly, for a game that came out in 2011, it is some of the most beautiful graphics I've seen and stylized graphics at that. Oh, absolutely. I also kind of just want to say that a big heartfelt thank you for creating a character like Alice Little. Because, like I said, as a girl who has a background in trauma myself, somebody who's gone through therapy and everything like that, and somebody who also retreats into my own inner space quite often when I'm struggling with things. For somebody who, as a child, their imagination just ran wild with all these fantastical worlds that were just so much better than what I was just experiencing at the moment. Finding someone like Alice Little,
01:10:33
Speaker
who wasn't always treated as a victim or wasn't made a stereotype or a caricature of a character who is mentally ill. Instead, she was treated with respect and given autonomy and power in her own space. I really appreciated seeing someone like that in a game like this. And like I said, her ending wasn't the best, but for the story that was told, it was the best ending that we could have for her. And I genuinely lament and mourn the loss of Alice Asylum because I would have loved to have seen her story continue. It is just such a shame that we didn't get to see a continuation. I mean, maybe there'll be a miracle on the horizon where they'll say, oh, maybe we should at least entertain the idea, or maybe they'll listen to this episode and say, But you know what, that chat tsunami makes a good point. Let's continue asylum. um yeah we can hope Yeah, that's wishful thinking for thanking from myself. Hashtag bring back. Yeah, you're completely right. The fact that this character of Alice wasn't treated so much as a
01:11:40
Speaker
stereotype or a victim but instead someone who was able to relatively mature away but also very realistically deal with her trauma, deal with her issues. Honestly it was so fascinating to watch it unfold and to see that again as we said that McGee wasn't just using this character as just a placeholder. I thought that he was saying, oh, this is my OCE Alice and yeah, she's got trauma. You know, it wasn't done in a disrespectful way, at least from my perspective. Anyway, I personally don't think it was. I don't think it was either. That's why I like her so much. There are so many people who can look at the idea of trauma and mental illness and go the really over the top almost cartoony portrayal of what that latent mania or psychosis can look like. I didn't get that impression with Alice.
01:12:41
Speaker
And like I said, Alice felt very grounded. Even in spite of being in her full-on delusions, she felt grounded. She felt centered. And I really appreciated that sort of portrayal being at the forefront of the experience. And I really do value her. She's one of my favorite characters in a game anywhere. I just adore Alice Little so much.
01:13:06
Speaker
Because, I mean, that was something that I was talking to you about off mic, where I was playing through this game and I would say that Alice is such a good character that if we ever did an episode on the best female gaming characters, she would wholeheartedly be on that list. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think she'd be most of the episode, really.
01:13:28
Speaker
Number one! I was little! I was little! Oh no, she absolutely would. And that is just the beauty of it. The fact that she is such a self-realised character that genuinely you could pluck her out of the story and then put her into another story and she would still be a self-realised character that although obviously Wonderland is a huge part of her character, she doesn't need to be confined to that. She's fully rounded. Yeah, exactly. She's 100% rounded. It's actually really surprising to see because, and I don't know, I don't play as many games like this with a darker, melancholy, gothic tone, but from the ones I have played, they usually, for the most part, for example, and this is going to sound like a really weird comparison, but with Gears of War, which I feel as if gets a really bad rap because they conflate the idea of, oh, they're big muscle men and, oh, they're going to shoot the aliens when there's the whole subtext and subtleties there. Honestly, I've got a month planned, hopefully. But the fact is that you can easily judge this game, and of course Gears of War, that's a lot of other things, but you can judge this game by its cover by this very intense looking young and who is holding a knife, drenched in blood and everything. And can I just say something? And I don't know if you feel the same way, but do you feel as if this game is essentially a buffet for cosplayers? Oh, absolutely. Listen, oh, my God, I wanted to do an Alice cosplay. I still want to do an Alice cosplay because she has the problem of doing an Alice cosplay. There's so damn many options for you. And you haven't even looked at the DLC dresses, have you? Oh, no, I did. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. There's so damn many options. And it's an absolute, for lack of a better word, a wonderland of choices. That was the greatest infomercial ever. Oh my God. I could just, I could go on and on and on about the designs for the dresses for ages and ages and ages. But I just, I love them so much. And like I said, I wanted to cosplay her. I wanted to cosplay her so desperately because she's beautiful, number one, and she's got just so many different aspects to. If you just go and look at the base skin, right? Her plain blue dress, right? I say plain blue dress, but there's so many details to it that make it so distinct. You can get a bunch of different Alice's together. Like, you know, you have the apron and the blue dress and everything like that. And you can find those many Alice's, but you always know the Alice little cosplayer. can pick the Alice Little cosplayer out of a crowd a mile away because just the dark hair and oh I think one of my favorite things is the alchemical symbols on the pockets of her apron and the fact she's wearing black and white striped tights it's just two minor details that I just absolutely love but are just so distinct about her design and it's simple but it's effective oh it's effective
01:16:27
Speaker
Do you know, something that I have to have admit I noticed, at least for a bass dress as it were, for lack of a better term, is the fact that it draws similarities between Disney's Alice and the original books as well of course, where usually Alice is portrayed, I don't know the type of dress that is, but you know it's the blue dress with the apron and the white tights and the black shoes and everything, and that is the quintessential Alice hair color painting. Usually it's blonde, but insert any dye here. But with McGee's Alice, you have that somewhat familiarity to the original source material, which I think is brilliant. oh yeah And the thing is, usually, as we said, with Alice's dress, it's always kind of a bright blue, like a sky blue. But for McGee's Alice, it's a lot darker. It's a deeper tone, like a royal blue. Like more of a deep sea blue almost than a sky blue, to see what I did there with the contrast. Oh yeah, okay. And that's actually a really excellent point as well because it's like you can look at the idea of Alice and it's already such a distinct character, right? Like you look at these combinations of things and you know, okay, that's Alice from Alice in Wonderland. But then you look at Alice little and you can know that that's Alice. You know that that's Alice, but she's still so distinct from the rest.
01:17:49
Speaker
There's enough context there that you know, okay, that's Alice, we're going to Wonderland, but it's gonna be an entirely different experience. She's an entirely different character. She is her own standout person and it's brilliant. It's just brilliant. Because it is something I always laugh at whenever I see the cosplays and you can clearly we see that for the most part they've just bought a regular Alice in Wonderland outfit. ah But then they've just drawn the symbols on and they've just splattered, hopefully, red paint all over themselves. For legal reasons, it's red paint. For legal reasons, yes, it's red paint. And you can always stay over. Again, going back to the outfit, as we said, you've got the deeper blue, you've got the alchemy symbols on, you've got the Omega necklace as well. The other thing that I thought was quite interesting was, as you said, the stripey tights and the huge combat boots.
01:18:43
Speaker
so Yeah, the big, big boots. Oh my God, I love those things. But I mean, if you compare it to the footwear that she has in the Disney film and any other adaptation, regular adaptation, that is, you know, the kind of small shoes and doing them more for everyday use and whatnot. But I mean, she's going to war, isn't she?
01:19:04
Speaker
of those boots. She is not messing around. Oh absolutely not. A hundred percent not. And you can tell and immediately from this depiction, because a lot of people, of what I think like you is a lot of people have drawn Disney Alice and the McGee's Alice side by side, and you can tell just the stark difference of this bright bubbly girl ready for a whimsical journey and adventure versus someone who has just been through it all and is ready to stab her. person. There is just such a visual distinction but there's also that link of similarity because I've seen cosplay competitions where it's like two women will be dressed up as the different Alice's and I can't remember what show it was because I saw it when I was researching this, I saw a video of someone dressed up as McGee's Alice and someone dressed up as Disney's Alice and they had a, well it was supposed to be a mirror but like a frame.
01:20:01
Speaker
and it was to represent the two sides of Alice that Alice was kind of skipping around the stage and then she was looking at herself off in the mirror and and it was McGee's Alice and McGee's Alice pulled her in and jumped out and she was trapped behind that and it was very well done for a show. But just the fact that there is that subconscious, oh yeah, this is Alice. This is Alice in Wonderland. But then there's that kind of switch in the head of, wait a minute, I don't remember Alice stabbing a teapot in the original kind of thing. Because one of my favorite things ever, especially with American McGee's Alice when it came out, there was a creator on DeviantArt that did a comic of what if Disney's Alice and McGee's Alice were friends? What if they actually knew each other? And it was honestly some of the fun I wish oh I wish for life and I could remember who actually did the comic. But it was just some of the scenarios they would come up with were just so so, so perfect. And they were just so perfectly on character as well. Because you would think that maybe like, oh, McGee's Alice is going to be super edgy and sort of look down her nose at Disney's Alice. No, if anything, McGee's Alice wants to protect Disney Alice because Disney Alice is still innocent and she sees that she's still innocent and she wants to protect that innocence. And I, oh, I loved it. It was so good.
01:21:13
Speaker
This is going to sound like a really daft question, just thinking about the fashion of Alice. Okay, go for it. And as the resident American of the podcast, let's face it, you pretty much are. Was this a popular item in places like Hot Topic? You know, actually, this came out when Hot Topic was still sort of finding its legs when it came to pop culture stuff. A lot Hot Topic, especially back when I was in school, was a lot about alternative things. So, of course, they had things like Invader Zim or anime things and a lot, of course, a lot of band merch and that sort of thing, right? So there was just a lot of stuff there that was more like it wasn't mainstream. kind Like it wasn't what we considered mainstream pop culture. It served definitely the more alternative side of things. So I think that there was a few necklaces and stuff like that of the Omega symbol and that sort of thing. And there might have been some t-shirts, but I don't know if they actually really went in on merch for Madness Returns. I don't quite recall, but then again, I have slept since then. So I could just be forgetting things entirely. But I do remember there being some merch here and there, but there wasn't really a lot for it. No, I was just curious because as far as I'm aware, maybe there is a hot topic here in the UK, but I've never personally come across. If there was a hot topic in the UK, I'd be fucked. Honestly, you would have to come on to Chatsunami as a permanent co-host just to recoup your losses.
01:22:40
Speaker
We'll negotiate after the episodes, of course. But i genuinely I genuinely hope that American McGee is finding, because pretty much after this all went down, he decided that he pretty much took all of the game production side of things down. And he said he wanted to focus on his family, which is already admirable to begin with. yeah But then I think another thing that I really admire him doing is that you can still find a little bit of Alice in, have you heard of his company that he has on the side that does bags and plushies and that sort of thing? Yeah. Mysterious. What do you know about it? You have to admit, not a whole lot, is it? Not quite... How to put this in the nicest way possible, like quite unique plushes. So the whole concept is, they're called the plushie dreadfuls. And he makes plushies for things, specifically stuffed rabbits are the the big thing. Rabbits are kind of the brand, as you know why. yeah But one of the biggest collections they have on there, of course you have your zodiac collection, you have the pride collection, which are Precious, by the way. Then you just have some bunnies that are like, oh, you have the goth bunny or the goth girl bunny or the shy bunny. And they're super cute. One of my favorite things that they do is they also have a Cheshire cat from American McGee's Alice. They have a Cheshire cat plushie, which is amazing to see. I love it. It's so beautiful. But then I think my favorite thing that they do is that they make rabbits that bring awareness to mental and chronic illnesses. And what's really interesting about these plushies is that every single one of them, like he will post a design about them and get proud critique and say, here's the concept that we have. We want to hear from you guys. What things should we change to make it more representative of the condition that we're trying to represent here? And I think that's just so admirable and the designs are not only meaningful, but they are just downright adorable. I am desperate for the fibromyalgia bunny that they have because I have fibromyalgia. And each of the bunnies on the website comes with a blurb that has some information about the condition itself as well. So not only is it adorable, it's educational. And I think it's so good of him to be sort of bringing some of these conditions to light And it seems like everything from CPTSD to I think the most recent one, I can actually go on the website right now. I had it pulled up a second ago looking at the different bunnies. I think the most recent one that they put out was, let me find it again. Oh yes, the depersonalization and derealization disorder rabbit, which is stunning to look at and strangely topical for what we were talking about here, because you could say that Alice in the game definitely went through some depersonalization and derealization in her journey in Wonderland as well, which is really just, again, kind of topical.
01:25:15
Speaker
You know, I have to say that is pretty admirable. It is really cool. And it's hard to think that like, Oh, you know, he went through this and he was heartbroken for it, but he's still doing things. And I think he's still doing really important things. And I love seeing stuff like this because every so often there is still a little nod to Alice there, you know, there's still a little nod to her. And I think that it's nice to know that like, even though he sort of shut down a lot of things, his heart is still there. as far as I remember, and I could be wrong on this, but I'm sure at the very beginning when he was doing the first game that he didn't want it to be called American McGee's Alice. He just wanted it to be, I don't know what they wanted it to be called, but not attributing it to his name. It's like evacuating someone and then everyone who is such an army's Alice kind of thing. But that's the thing, though, that because of that, ironically enough, because of EA forcing him or whoever did get him to agree to that, the fact that that he is now legendary in terms of creating this, both this fantastic character, but also this fantastic legacy as a person, as a creator, as a supposed visionary, because going back to the point that I made at the very beginning of absolutely hating people who take
01:26:29
Speaker
something from your childhood and then they warp it into something twisted and mean-spirited. I don't think that's what's happening here at all. I think that he has done something that is absolutely incredible, that is meaningful, and the fact that even though he's unable to work in the games, he is still out there doing things. And as I said, even though the Patreon is more or less defunct and you can download the full 400 14 pages of his Design Bible for Alice Asylum, the third unreleased game. The fact is that his name will forever be cherished in this fandom because there's just under 8,000 people who have joined the Patreon and between that, between the comments we've been getting about the game, this isn't the game of someone who had a lucky fluke or just got here because oh it was just by chance and I know there's certain things that they wanted to implement in the game like boss fights that they had to take out like the March Hare and the Door Mouse that they were supposed to be a boss fight at the end of the I think the industrial level before the matter
01:27:39
Speaker
ah tough falls on them and there are a lot of other ones of course as well but the fact is the name American McGee has now become synonymous with this version of Alice in Wonderland. I genuinely think that that is absolutely fantastic. I agree, I agree. Honestly, as a kind of closing point, I really hope the best for Mr. McGee. I genuinely hope for the best that he is sitting out there, that he is happy, as you said, with his family and doing the plushies and everything. It's something that I genuinely wish for the best for him, even if he somehow isn't allowed to return to his Wonderland.
01:28:18
Speaker
His Wonderland will always be there through the form of his own Alice McGee's Alice and Madness Returns as well, and I think that is just so special. I mean, on the one hand, yeah, it is really sad they never got it, but how many creators out there can truly say that they have managed to do something like he has, that they have sat there, that they've inspired a whole generation of not just gamers, because It seems as if this is very unisex because as a guy and on behalf of all other guys who are fans of this particular game I think it's absolutely fantastic but the fact that it also inspires the women and young girls as well
01:28:59
Speaker
whether they are going through hardships of their own and they have a character who they can identify with and really look up to who is not like a caricature, is not a stereotype, is this young girl just trying to do her best and one of the most horrible parts of society. It's just fantastic. So again, you should be so proud of what he has achieved with this game because I'm sure it's helped proud of him. I am too. And again, because I don't think I said it earlier, should this ever, ever in some weird realm reach him? Mr. McGee, thank you so much for your creation. Absolutely. Thank you again so much. Because I know we joke about it to say, oh, if they are listening, ha ha. But honestly, it is well worth giving that a shot. That's all I'll say. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you haven't played the game and you want to experience for yourself, please do. Please do. Just, of course, you know, keep in mind, like we talked about here, it does get into some pretty serious topics. So play safely, you know, consider your consider your mental state before you go into it. But it is such an experience. And if anybody ever asked me like you did, if they should play this game, I say absolutely yes. Yeah, if you have an understanding of the person who wants to play the game, then absolutely recommend it to them. But it doesn't hurt to give them a heads up to say, okay, there's some very uncomfortable moments with the themes and the characters.
01:30:23
Speaker
Again, it's not a game for children, even though I know plenty of people have played this probably before they should have. Pretty much at this point it's a stereotype. It's true that a lot of kids manage to get a hold of these types of games and even their parents don't realise they think, oh a cute Alice in Wonderland game and then of course they don't realise they're shanking teapots left, right and centre. Oh yeah. well One of the things that I did find funny speaking of that was the merchandise for this game and one of the things I saw which looked gorgeous but unfortunately because the game sold now the art book is a good couple of hundred pounds it is ridiculous but if it ever was cheap I would definitely be trying to get my hands on it but you can also get the Vorpal Blade which I want to stress for legal reasons I feel as if it's very precarious to be ordering such a thing online But God, it's beautiful. God, it's gorgeous. But it sounded like the 8 Alice equivalent of guys who have katanas on their rolls. I mean, pretty much. I cannot tell you how bad I wanted that damn fourple blade the first time I saw it. I mean, don't get me wrong, it does look pretty damn cool. And this is coming from someone who, you know, I don't really pay attention to that kind of thing. It might come as a shock in the horror, but I don't screw arms Amazon going, oh, that would be a nice weapon to hang on them.
01:31:46
Speaker
ah glad one of us doesn't anyway. I could just imagine going to you, I actually like welcome to my abode and it's just on the mantelpiece. I mean, I say that, but I'm literally looking across my space right now to the pile of swords against the wall over there that we still need to mount. I also think about just on the other side of the door where I'm sitting right now is toasters swords. and So I'm just kind of like,
01:32:12
Speaker
It's like, you know Bilbo out of Lord of the Rings where he's like, why shouldn't I have it? No, pretty much. It's just kind of like one of those things. It's like, listen, I'm not a violent person. I just like the sharpened pointies because they're pretty. Again, it would be fine for you because, as you said, you and Toaster have that collection of medieval weaponry, as it were.
01:32:30
Speaker
but but for recreational reasons, not just because you decided one night that you wanted to become medieval knights, but well, maybe Toaster did actually, sorry. No, Toaster absolutely did. That was a conscious decision he made. I mean, considering he is the one with the armour. Yeah, literally. Literally. By the way, listeners, that is not a joke. No, listen, for legal reasons, this is entirely serious. Yeah, because I just want to point out in a side note, the first time I started talking to Toaster, and for anyone who doesn't know this is Robotic Battle Toaster, amazing person. He's been on the podcast before. Yeah, he's pretty neat. Oh yeah, you would say that. He's kind of cool.
01:33:06
Speaker
kind of yeah This is Moth Toaster over here. I thought he was cool enough to move 4,000 miles for so I mean, yeah. Yeah, true, true. But I just always remember the first time I started talking to him, lovely guy, and he joined my Discord server and they said, oh, do you want to see my armour? And I was expecting, oh, you know, cosplay armour or maybe foam or, you know, the pads and whatever. Oh god, no. No, no, he started sending selfies of him in full plate mail. I was like,
01:33:37
Speaker
That is a set of armour. Yeah, it is. Did he ever show you the video of him getting whacked with a practice sword? You know what? I'm going to have to ask him for that It's a good one. It's a good one. It always reminds me, speaking of the Vorput Blade, it always reminds me of, I always bring a story up, I still find it hilarious, when I went to Comic Con and I ended up buying a Funko Pop of, you know, Twin Peaks. Yes. You know, Dale Cooper played by Kyle McGoughlin, again. the main FBI agent. Yeah. So I really wanted a Funko of him because I just think he's a generally really cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything. Honestly, I was like, oh cool, I'm going to get one of them. And of course, the salesman was like, do you want this Funko of Laura Palmer wrapped in plastic? Now, for those of you who don't know what Twin Peaks is, and bear with me both. Twin Peaks is about the unfortunate murder of a young girl who gets brutally murdered and she gets wrapped up in plastic. And then in the morning, the local police find their body and everything. They made a funko of that scene and that is the most horrifying thing ever. And I remember the guy saying, oh, you sure you don't want it? I'll give you it with a deal, blah, blah, blah. I turned around to him and I said, listen, I don't think it's worth the hassle having to explain every time somebody comes into my home that I've got a funko of Laura Palmer and having to explain what Laura Palmer is. And he kept saying, are you sure? And I'm like, no, no sale. I'm sitting over here wondering, How did that make it past review? I don't know. You said that was a good idea. See, I mean they even have Bob who's the evil spirit guy and does a fantastic job of creeping me out, not in the end. But even then you can understand that because he is a character. Dead Laura Palmer Funko is not the phrase I thought I would be saying.
01:35:31
Speaker
i am But to conclude my Ted talking this, if I was to choose between the Lord of Palm or Funko or the Vorpal Blade, Your Honour, I would be taking the Vorpal Blade. Thank you. That is the easiest decision ever, frankly.
01:35:46
Speaker
Oh, 100%. Oh my god. I mean, my very good friend and fellow member of the Podpack Collective Dan from the Cast and Views Podcast, we did an episode on gaming memorabilia and like really weird memorabilia in general and oh man, it was eye-opening how certain things got past the review stages. So a Warple Blade for kids, I'm gonna be honest. Not the worst plan they probably could a gun for yeah even if they sold the aprons ah
01:36:16
Speaker
isn't this bad complete with bloodquis of course oh absolutely absolutely but listen it's not blood it's catchchup oh yeah ketchup or cats up we might never know ah you get out no one calls it that Ah, Simpsons, you never let me down. But anyway. But to summarise, this is a great game. An absolutely fantastic story-driven platformer that, again, if you're mature enough to handle the themes, then absolutely check this game out. You won't regret it. It really plays well. The story itself is quite intense, but really well realised. And honestly, I am so grateful that I've managed to talk about it today. So without any further ado, Moth, thank you so, so much for coming onto this episode and yeah talking about this wonderful game. Well, thank you for giving me a platform to yap. I really appreciate it.
01:37:07
Speaker
you yeah
01:37:11
Speaker
Oh, snap. It's always a pleasure. And before we wrap up, where can these lovely Pandalorian listeners find your content? Okey-dokey. Well, I'm active most in places like Twitch and Twitter slash X or whatever you want to call that platform when they used to have the bird on it. Styria Moth spelled the exact same it is in the title. And if you decide you like my content, you want to check out the rest of my content on my Twitch channel. You happen to like it. And you want to become one of my little lamp lights. I have a link to my Discord attached to my Twitch channel as well. so you're always welcome to come join us, we have a lot of fun there. And if you want to check out more yapping sessions from myself and the wonderful Mortia, as well as other episodes, then you can check us out our our website, Chatsunami dot.com, as well as all good podcast apps. I also want to give a Huge shout out to our Pandalorian patrons, Robotic Battle Toasted and Sonya, thank you so much as always for supporting the show and if you would like behind the scenes bloopers and early access, exclusive episodes, commentary tracks, more of us flubbing the lines for this. Then, yeah, feel free to check us out at patreon dot.com forward slash chat tsunami and become a pandalorian patron today. But as always, thank you all so, so much for listening to this episode. I cannot wait personally to show you what we have in store for season five. We have some incredible episodes coming up this month, especially because next week we are going to be interviewing the amazing honor from Honors Diary.
01:38:42
Speaker
the week after, Andrew's coming back to join me to review Ghost Stories, which he still hasn't forgiven me for that one, but the less said about that the better. And then of course we are wrapping up the month with the amazing Dan from Casting Views. Him and I are going to be talking about the Dead Space remake, so you know what, cannot wait for that. But until next time, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.