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Stealing the Christmas Spirit! Let's Discuss Grinch Adaptations!
43 Plays3 days ago
In this episode, Satsunami and Andrew take on one of Christmas' most iconic mascots The Grinch! But which adaptation will make their hearts grow two sizes bigger? Does the Illumination one beat out Jim Carey's 2000s adaptation? And what kind of a party were the Whos of Whoville HAVING?! All this and more in this festive episode of Chatsunami!
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Transcript
Pre-Christmas Podcasting Challenges
00:00:02
Speaker
It was a few weeks till Christmas, and not a podcast in sight. There wasn't even an episode lined up. That wasn't very bright. Alright, what's the gimmick this time? I was worried my friend was being so smart and so slick. So I thought of a comeback, and I thought of it quick.
00:00:17
Speaker
You do know I can hear you, right? And why you dressed like a green Santa? Ho ho ho! But I'm he, don't you see? Delivering presents, crazy and wacky. From micromophone puzzlers to technological puzzlers. Each one so swish. You'll see me done soon. Isn't that your wish?
00:00:33
Speaker
Would you stop with the ridiculous rhyming? It'll affect our episode timing. God damn it, now I'm doing that as well. Next thing you know, we'll be laughed at by the podcast community. Good thing I've got diplomatic immunity. Exactly. So we need a topic in a pinch. Andrew, stop Dr. Susan and put on the damn Grinch.
Dinosaurs in Christmas Attire?
00:00:53
Speaker
These rhymes are gonna drive me bar me. Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:58
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to this very festive episode of Chatanami. My name's Satanami and joining me today is none other than the Christmas Grinch himself, it is Andrew. Andrew, welcome back. The sun is out and the podcasting is bitching. I'm surprised you can see that from your kitchen. I couldn't think of a bit of a rainbow!
00:01:20
Speaker
but So, how are you doing today? I'm good. I'm all Christmas stuff. I'm wearing my dinosaur Christmas jumper and my dinosaur Christmas socks. Dinosaur's are very important to Christmas to me. Everyone knows that the three Y's, Stegosaurus's, Stegosaurus came and delivered to the baby T-Rex. So, for legal reasons, I'm getting waved down by the right panda lawyer. For legal reasons, that is indeed a
Holiday Hustle and Reflection
00:01:41
Speaker
joke. But yeah, I cannot believe, and I say this all the time when we run an episode and I go, i can't believe how fast the time has gone by and everything, but we are nearly at the end of 2024. We are nearly at the end of Christmas as of recording this. It's only a couple of weeks away. My God, where has the time gone, Andrew? No, it's absolutely flown by. This will be our first Christmas episode, I believe, of the holiday season. I think we kicked things off with the anniversary episode, didn't we, with the month? But it's very exciting, kind of leading up to Christmas. I don't know if everyone else at home that celebrates has gotten their shopping done by now, but it's shaping up to be a really fun one. Well, I know I sure haven't.
00:02:21
Speaker
To be honest, I looked at the Black Friday sales, I looked everywhere else. Honestly, it gets harder and harder every year which, judging by the topic that we're going to be talking about, it's a blessing and a curse because it means less of the Christmas cheer to steal. Is it bad every time you're finishing a sentence I'm hearing a rhyme in my head? Well, to be honest, you could change podcasts instead. I mean,
00:02:43
Speaker
Now, to be fair, yes, we are just after... well, as you heard by the intro, we're just after recording that very wonderful rhyming scat there. What a tongue twister. So, if you want to go into Patreon to listen to that, or rather listen to us fumble over those.
The Grinch: Loveable Villain?
00:03:00
Speaker
And by fumble, I mean more me, to be honest. But, yeah, today we're going to be talking about a staple of the holiday season. And, of course, no, it's not going to be dinosaurs. I'm sorry to break it to you, Andrew, but today we are going to be talking about another green animal of non-descriptive origins, that of course being the Grinch, which honestly, is it safe to say at this stage you can't really think of Christmas without thinking of characters like the Grinch because you know you've got your scrooges and you've got all the others. For brevity's sake, let's not list a little bit. Is it safe to say that the Grinch is up there as one of the most popular Christmas characters? I think he's certainly one of the most well known associations with Christmas, which is so funny because he's kind of the antithesis of the Christmas spirit that I think people rally around the moodiness of the Grinch, they kind of enjoy him for that kind of aspect. Because you always see loads of Grinch related sort of memorabilia in Christmas places. So people do enjoy his weirdness and his aesthetic. And now a curiosity, what is your experience with the Grinch growing up? Was he a central part of your holiday rotor when you were watching the original cartoon and the films which we're going to be talking about in this episode?
Grinch Adaptations: A Closer Look
00:04:13
Speaker
Or was he kind of sidelined for other films? I would say it was a Christmas regular for us. So we would probably have the Grinch on each year. The Jim Carrey live action one, we didn't really get the animated one from the 1970s. I want to say maybe the 1960s too often. I not even confident that I ever saw it growing up. I thought it might've been until my adult years that I saw it, but I read the book growing up and we weren't a big Dr. C's household, but we'd have like the cat in the hat. We had a bit of the Grinch. My mother did not enjoy the Jim Carrey Grinch movie, she really didn't like it and so it wasn't a popular one around her to have fun but it was on TV so often around Christmas time that you would just kind of watch it when it was on TV. Funny enough, I think my mum's the exact same. She is not a fan of the Jim Carrey one which is one of the ones that we're going to be diving into today but yeah it's really interesting because again I'm in complete with the same boat as you here. I never really grew up with the original cartoon, I never really watched it growing up, I knew of it. You know that way when you see it referenced in other things like one of the more famous ones is seeing Home Alone 2 when Kevin McCallis or the character, he's watching it in his room and there's that transition of the Grinch smiling and then it fades into Tim Curry's face which is almost identical the way There's my one. But beyond that, I never really watched the original, which apparently came out in 1966, which is absolutely wild. Well, sorry, I say absolutely wild, but I mean, when did Christmas Carol come out and we're still talking about it? it's oh Well, I mean, The Doctor Says book came out even prior to that. Yeah, true. We're going Christmas Carol Charles Dickens. we're We're going back a couple hundred years now. Where we're going, we don't need dates. Yeah, to be honest I never really grew up with the original but I knew of it, I knew the iconography of it and then in the year 2000, which I can not believe it was 24 years ago, we got the live-action Jim Carrey version. And I feel bad for saying that because every time people say, oh, the live-action version, they always have to specify live-action Jim Carrey version. It's never the live-action Ron Howard version. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, because he directed the movie. Yeah, and it's interesting as well because I don't think, at least to my knowledge, that there is another live-action Grinch movie so that you would specify the Jim Carrey one is quite funny.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, because there's a musical, I want to say, or a stage show of some kind. I know there's that, but that's the only one we got. I think for obvious reasons, because there was a lot of, let's just say, controversy about the behind the scenes of this film. And I think after the disaster of Hat and Hat, I want to say three years later or so, they kind of stopped putting their eggs into the live-action Doctor Seuss basket and then they moved more to the animated world. Horton, here's a who. port and here's a who, the Lorax, and of course the Grinch. We don't get to be talking about the other one. So I think it was the best move at the time. But yeah, to look round quickly, that was one of the Christmas films that I would watch every year because it would always come on TV and everything. I think there is a lot of nostalgia for that film. because I remember when, well even before the film came out in 2018 for Illumination's The Grinch, I kind of rolled my eyes when I heard that they were remaking it, they were doing their own spin on it. I thought, oh this isn't going to be as good as the Jim Carrey one. Fast forward a couple of years though and of course at this point I met my partner, we'd moved in together and I was saying to her, oh you're going to I love this film. I grew up with it and I was showing her all the different Christmas films that I grew up with that she'd missed out on. One of which being The Original Grinch and by Original on the 2000s version. Suffice to say I don't think she enjoyed it too much and I don't blame her. And it is something we'll talk about later but it is definitely a film of choices.
Jim Carrey's Grinch: Behind the Scenes Woes
00:08:15
Speaker
That way you watch it back as an adult and you go, wow, that was a choice in the script. The decisions were made. Yeah, yeah. It's like someone had to write that in the script. The Grinch gets catapulted into a woman's chest. It's like somebody got paid to write those words. It was the horniest Christmas movie I think I've ever seen. I mean some landed, some didn't but there was a lot of adult jokes. Obviously they tried to blend it in with the kind of child friendly aspects with innuendos and things but yeah there was a lot of that going on in this one.
00:08:48
Speaker
Whereas it's weird because when you watch the new one, and by new one, I mean the one that came out six years ago, Christ I'm old. oh my god See, when they say 2018, you don't flinch, but when they say six years ago, my God, the ravages of age and all that. But I remember watching that, I thought, okay, I'll give it a shot. And I don't know whether it's the fact that, again, my girlfriend loves this version of it because it's kind of cute saying. Honestly, I grew to really appreciate it. I really like it as well. But there's definitely that nostalgia for the 2000s version, because the original is, and I want to say, I could be wrong, there could be a Doctor Sussian out there who would say, oh it's not that long, but I think it was around 20 minutes or so. It's quite a short cartoon, the original one, I mean, and it's a very touching story for all two of you out there who don't know what the Grinch is about. It's about a creature called the Grinch, a big green furry thing, he wants to sell Christmas because he doesn't like it and then he discovers that Christmas is more than presents and the commercialism which is something that we will touch on later for the other film and it's actually it's a lovely message to teach kids that the season is more than about the presents, about the items and things like that and of course throughout the years I don't
00:10:05
Speaker
there's really been many good inter-adaptations, have there? I mean, there's been parodies, but not really a fully fledged one beyond the 2000 film and the 2018 film. Yeah, no, there's not been too much. It's certainly part of the lexicon. It's referenced so much in just everything. Everyone loves to parody the Grinch and sort of bring it up as a big kind of joke, which it is. It is a joke of a property. It's very silly and it lends itself to that. But there's not been really any proper adaptations to my knowledge apart from the two we're talking about today and the original one. I mean it is bizarre because as we were kind of joking a bit earlier, you know you've got interpretations of older classic films, especially like It's a Wonderful Life and Christmas Carol, you know ones that are relatively old but they've got such a timeless core story that people try and adapt it and make it their own thing and you know that borders onpadd day for a lot of things because even the simsons and you know cartains like that is become soined into culture that you just can't escape
Audience Preferences for Grinch Versions
00:11:07
Speaker
it this time of year. Even that miserable person in your life, you know for the fact that one person is going to buy them a Grinch either jump a bar or a bauble or a pair of socks. I know I've got a pair of socks as well. and I'm not measurable. I say to myself very confidently but it's an absolute timeless story and as we were saying before, we are indeed going to be focusing on the interpretations of both these films. We are going to be seeing how each one handles the source material
00:11:37
Speaker
And again, you know, this is going to be a very lighthearted discussion. We're not going to be criticising or taking away from anyone's nostalgia because before we get into it, before we jump in, I went to Twitter slash X, I went to Blue Sky, I went to Threads, and I asked the age-old question of what people thought about these films. I feel as if this first comment encapsulates how strong the Jim Carrey version is. And it's from a user called Weste, who says that they prefer the Jim Carrey one as opposed to the Illumination one and a lot of the other ones. Because don't get me wrong, I have a fondness and nostalgia for this film, but I was really surprised at how much other people had. Not a bias, but a massive lean towards the live action one.
00:12:25
Speaker
I took to one of the groups that I'm in called The Guild on Twitter, filled with a bunch of amazing podcasters and content creators. So here's a couple of comments that they left. Dan B. Fierce said, I love them both, but the live action one holds a special place in my heart for personal reasons. Tis Yourself podcast says, love the Jim Carrey one. It's just so good. October Pod says, for me, if it ain't Boris Karlov, it ain't Grinch. And Blackett's, I say Grinchily. Our True Crime podcast is as someone who isn't a Jim Carrey fan, I have to say the original was my favourite. The Social Detective podcast saying they're agreeing with the Tis Yourself podcast. Jim Carrey to me is the one true Grinch. He will always have my Christmas heart. How many sizes is that heart? Well, I'm looking at it just now. It's maybe one or two sizes too small. Don't worry, we'll work on that in the episode. Oh yeah, maybe by the end. Like a spirit bomb getting that Christmas cheer up. Give me your energy. Give me your cheer. I know Dragon Ball once over. I'm sorry. I can't let go. The crossover potential is unreal. Oh, exactly. Could Goku beat up the Grinch? We'll never know. Power scaling the Grinch. Family Plot Podcast says, here here, although the live action one holds a special place in my heart because I saw it in the theatre with Dambi Fierce and because I recently learned that Jim Carrey hated the makeup and was going to quit before Ron Hubbard brought in a CIA expert in resisting interrogation techniques to help him through it. That is true, we will be touching on that. And to know that he was capable of giving the performance he did when he was so miserable is just amazing to me. The last two. of course come from the social detective again replying to say that the original is special to her because her dad loved it so much. Being deaf, he loved the physical antics of the dog and she could still hear him laugh. So I watch it every year as a tribute to him. The Jim Carrey was a favourite with my kids. Now when I watch it, I act out the scenes with my dogs. So the verdict is yes, I'm insane, which to be fair, I probably do that with my dog as well.
00:14:35
Speaker
but Just to be like, they are destiny. I don't get our typical of sled though. The final two comments come from Blue Sky, by the way. new Shout out, we are in Blue Sky. Leo Allen says the 1966 original is his favourite, although the other two are great, but the original brings back so many core memories. Finally, Melvina, the V trooper says, I grew up with the old cartoon, but I really loved the Jim Carrey one. I only recently saw the elimination one and it was alright and had some funny moments, but I don't know, something wasn't quite there for me. That is actually the perfect place to dive into this. So, Andrew, are you ready to get Grinchy with it? Whatever that means. I don't want to explore what that means, to be honest.
00:15:20
Speaker
but well i'm goingnna get a dictionary but're going to find out we' getting grin you meansends care rhyming dictionary yeah exactly and yeah we'll be right back after these fest of messages welcome to shatanami a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and general and interest Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:16:17
Speaker
fancy taking the humorous trip down a random topic each week? You do while you're in luck. Casting Views presented by me Dan and a host of guests bring you just that. With topics from the world of entertainment, science, sport and everyday life, there's bound to be a topic that's going to inform on the news. Catch Casting Views every Sunday on all listening platforms now.
00:16:43
Speaker
So, as we established there, we have two particular word interpretations of this very iconic story. We have one that is probably a lot more faithful to the social material and one that is probably taking a lot more liberties. And you'll probably guess which one's which. But before we begin, I'm going to throw you into the deep end here, Andrew, and I'm going to ask the question, what was your favourite interpretation out of the too. It's tough, because the live action movie is so nostalgic to me, and I enjoy it so much for that. I think The Illumination One is arguably a better film, but I don't feel it has the same kind of heart to it. And again, that might just be pure nostalgic. I think a lot of people of a younger demographic would
00:17:34
Speaker
go more towards the Illumination one as opposed to the live action one because the live action one's just kind of weird and zany whereas the Illumination one is very fun in a different way. It has a lot of pop songs and that kind of stuff in it as Illumination loves to do, but my favorite is still the live action one.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with that take to be honest, and not because I'm fearing the backlash and ostracization of the community of broadcasters listening to this, but in all seriousness, I feel as if the live action one, although I don't think a lot of what they were trying to do landed particularly well, I appreciate the fact that they went out of their way to try something new, to try and make something a bit more unique rather than rehashing the same story. Don't get me wrong, the Illumination one definitely does that and I feel as i if I compare the two, then objectively, the Illumination one probably wins for me in terms of being, again, as you said to borrow the phrase, a better film because it's colorful, there's nothing really offensive and ah unless you have very very sensitive sensibilities for it. I like that it brings out a lot of very sousical contraptions and animals and stuff that you don't really get in a live-action one because they simply have the capacity to do that in a live-action format. So the anime one certainly allows for more sousian craziness.
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah, one thing I'll say is they definitely take advantage of that with the animation because there's some films, and I absolutely hate when they do this, where they make an animated film but they use real life physics, if that makes sense.
Animation vs. Reality in Films
00:19:09
Speaker
You know, they don't take advantage of the fact that it's an animation and they can do all these wacky things but they keep it grounded and realistic. But for this particular one, they definitely take advantage of the silliness. Cartoon physics.
00:19:23
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. and I mean, it has a couple of really decent laughs in it because I have to admit, the one that they kept showing in the trailers and that didn't make me laugh was the cranberry scene, you know, when he's in the supermarket and she says, are you going to take those cranberries? And he's like, and and no. And then he puts it on the top shelf and then he just bangs it and it smashes. And again, it's like a very tame reaction, but I thought there was a lot of innocent humor in it. tracks of the townspeople a lot more as well. And you kind of get a bit more of a sense that he's a part of this community, despite not enjoying the community and being a complete kind of good edge. Yeah, being being a bit of ah ah a dick to the rest of the town, he still has that kind of association. And they're still pretty friendly with him. They still ask him to do different things. And that neighbor guy is always trying to be friends with them. I feel as if in that one he's definitely the nicer Grinch, which I know sounds so weird like an oxymoron to he's the nicer Grinch, but when you compare his relationship between him and his dog and Max, you feel as if at least he cares about Max's well-being and the animated one. Whereas, although he does care about Max and the live-action one, you do feel as if there's a kind of strange relationship there. Yeah, from just the same note that I made that the animated one seems to show a lot more love towards Max. Him and Max seem to have a lot more of a cooperative relationship as well. Max is this kind of like servant where he like delivers him breakfast in the morning kind of thing. Like what was Singromat essentially? Yeah, it is very Wallace and Gromit actually. I didn't think of that, but it is very Wallace and Gromit. Wallace and Gromit quoted.
00:21:00
Speaker
ah Wallace and Grinch. wallace and grinch yeah Where's that crossover, Hardman? Where's that crossover? There probably is in the dark depths of our archives. There's not enough clay in the world to do that. I was going to say, there's not enough clay to cover Jim Carrey again. Did you know that the company that makes the Hardman animation clay close down, and no other clay company does that kind of clay, and so there's a concern that that kind of stop motion stuff is going to be like wiped out. That was years ago though, I don't know if it's been resolved since then.
00:21:26
Speaker
Oh god, I hope so. Any Wallace and Gromit fans out there listening to this, there's like a Venn diagram of Grinch fans and Wallace and Gromit fans in the middle of this Venn diagram. I mean, like, don't you worry. Start soon, Andrew. I'll get the answer to you. Genuinely. And I'll be very curious to hear, so please feel free to reach out. But yeah, going back to the characterisation of the Grinch, The Grinch is a bit horrid, but he's not really a Grinch Grinch, you know, and that sounds so weird to say it like that, but he doesn't seem as if he embodies the nastiness and the horribleness and meanness. He's very much a child
00:22:00
Speaker
friendly Grinch, which I don't get me wrong they all are child friendly, but he seems a lot more tame and overall what makes the film the safer of the two watches. Whereas I feel as if it wasn't for Jim Carrey as the Grinch in the 2000s version, then I don't think this film would have been that well received, do you? Yeah, he brings his Jim Carrey energy to the performance in such a beautiful way that it endears you to the movie and to his character that like he is horrible and you love him for it. He plays it up in such a fantastic way that there aren't many actors like that that can pull it off in that way.
00:22:38
Speaker
I agree, the Illumination Grinch doesn't quite have that sinisterness to him. the Even if you look at like the 1966 one, the Grinchy Grin is synonymous, the curled up evil grin that he does. That is so synonymous. And I don't feel like that gets really embodied within the Illumination Grinch. Cumberbatch does an okay job, but he just sounds like a guy. i mean Can you imagine if he gave him the smoke voice? At least his American accent is getting a little bit better because some of Cumberbatch's American roles have been pretty rough. Yeah I have to say as a British person now by extension Scottish I don't really notice the differences as much when British actors and other actors put on an American accent but it must be so distracting for a lot of Americans watching the film and going what accent is he putting on him because I know he sometimes has the American accent he slips into his own accent it kind of goes back and forth
00:23:31
Speaker
Whereas, again, with the live-action one, Jim Carrey just goes for it and all of his Jim Carrey-ness. And do you know the backstory behind that with his trials and tribulations, as it were? With regards to his prosthetics? Yeah, with the suit and everything. Yeah, so for everyone who isn't aware, the process to get Jim Carrey ready for each day of shooting, it was around like eight hours or something that it took to get him fully grinshed up. What did you say earlier, getting Grinchy with it? Yeah, getting Grinchy, I thought. Jim Carrey took eight hours to get Grinchy with it. That's a scientific term. Exactly. It's like when we talked about gonganization. Do you know what we should do? We should probably have like a chat tsunami dictionary. Just go like these terms. That's a good idea. Yeah, so he was getting brinchified. I was getting Grinchy with it for eight hours each time. And it was horrendous. As you imagine, getting all that plaster put on you and painted and all the things that kind of come with it. And for that long period of time, it would be pretty taxing. He was very close to quitting. And the studio brought in a guy whose profession was to help CIA operatives deal under interrogation and torture. And so he got trained in how to deal with torture in order to play the Grinch. I mean, Jim Carrey was already pretty wacky, but the kind of craziness that he kind of embodies as part of that role might be explained by some of that. yeah because i was watching an interview that you did with i think it was Graham Norton and he was talking about this how he actually put a whole three's trailer on the first day because as you said it took them about i think eight and a half hours the first time and then i think after he were rightfully, well I'm not justifying him crunching out the trailer but you know he was rightfully outraged about it and he was close to quitting and then I think Ron Howard eventually had to get someone into, as you were referring to as well, get the CIA guy to teach him different tactics which apparently included hitting yourself in the leg, smoking, eating anything that was just in reach. Just a whole load of other things that people under know people under torture would go through and try to take their mind off of that never mind a prosthetic Grinch costume which apparently I think it was made up of yak hair that they had to sew into the thing oh it was absolutely horrific I think the only saving grace if you can call it that is they managed to cut down the process and maybe it was longer but I'm sure they managed to cut it down to two and a half hours I think eventually but they had similar issues with
00:26:01
Speaker
the other hoods because you know how they've got the weird noses and no eyebrows and everything. Except for Cindy Liu who was deemed too young to apply prosthetics so they came up with the excuse in the movie that she hasn't grown into her nose yet. You know it's something that you don't really, but as a kid you don't really pick up on or think hey wait a minute.
00:26:19
Speaker
but for very legal reasons that I mean that in all sincerity that they couldn't apply prosthetics to a child, which is definitely the right call because if they're hiring the CIA or someone affiliated with the CIA to teach the Grinch torch,
00:26:35
Speaker
or prevention tactics. It's just as crazy. In a way, I suppose, it shows the dedication of Jim Carrey. I think if it was eight hours every single time, he would have been well within his rights just to walk away from it, or they would have had to have thought of something else. But at the same time, without Jim Carrey, without his performance, without his quotability as well, because he's got so many good scenes, doesn't he? There's some absolutely fantastic scenes with him and how he's able to express himself and his body language, his physical performance is just so wonderful. Because it's something that we were talking about earlier with the comments that people were leaving, especially with the Social Detective podcast, that it's a very physical film in the sense of its
Physical Comedy in Grinch Movies
00:27:21
Speaker
comedy. that obviously Jim Carrey at the time, and even nowadays, but especially back then, is a very physical comedy actor. Considering he is buried under those layers of makeup and latex and whatever, the fact that he's buried under that naked and he can still who have an emotive performance there is nothing short of incredible to be honest.
00:27:43
Speaker
It is just absolutely insane what they managed to pull off. Again, I think out of the two of them, they definitely embodied the horribleness of the Grinch. Taking off my nostalgia glasses here, I think the one thing that the film maybe feels at is getting the point across. See, when you rewatch this, did you feel that way, that the original one kind of didn't really get the message of the original? As good as it was? well It's interesting because what seems to happen is because the story of the Grinch is a very interesting one. Because the idea being that Christmas is this lovely thing, but we take it for
The Grinch's Journey: Materialism to Meaning
00:28:23
Speaker
granted. And we kind of have misunderstood what it's about that it's not all about the presents and the excess and the the items. It's about being together and the joy and the spirit of each other. So the original story, the Grinch assumes that everyone's obsessed with presents, which they are to an extent, but then learns actually, this town isn't so bad and they aren't just obsessed with presents. I've misunderstood them. They actually have a big heart and that they appreciate the other things and the small things in life and that kind of stuff. Ron Howard took that kind of baseline concept of commercialism is bad and like ran with it. He was like, this is what the movie is going to be heavily focusing on. I'm going to make this town of Whovians Google. That's another snowflake.
00:29:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolute monsters. They're all selfish and self-absorbed and always fighting with each other and competing against each other. And they're obsessed with with gifts and presents and shiny things and hoo-hosh. But then as as soon as and as soon as Christmas is done, they all chuck it away. They don't actually care about things. It's like getting, and then they just get rid of it very soon afterwards. And that was kind of what Ron Howard ran with. And Cindy Lou was the message through that, that like, no, that's not what Christmas should be about. I've learned that it's not this. And I'm going to teach you Grinch that we don't think like that. But people do and she has to kind of convinced them. Whereas the elimination one, the people aren't as present obsessed. And it doesn't take much from Cindy Lou for everyone to be like, okay, well, presents are gone. So what we have each other, the mom gives a little kind of pep talk to her. And then they all chime up and the Grinch is like, Oh, okay, I was wrong.
00:29:53
Speaker
and so you still get to the kind of the same conclusion but one just kind of paints society in a much darker light than the other which might be more true to life but it isn't necessarily the message that Seuss was going with, it's a much more extreme message. I am so conflicted about how I feel about it because on the one hand I would say obviously minus one or two embellishments for the elimination one like with Pharrell Williams narrating it and with a very kind of updated pop so You don't know that Dr Seuss didn't have Pharrell Williams in mind when he was writing the story. Oh, definitely. His crystal ball moment would be like, this is the perfect person. Whereas in the live action one, it's Anthony Hopkins, and I'm going to be honest, if it's Anthony Hopkins versus most people, I think Anthony Hopkins would win because he's just got such an iconic voice. It's interesting that Boris Karloff in the 1966 one was both the Grinch and the narrator. Well he does a fantastic job at that though. I just want to point that out from what I've watched of the original. It is an iconic voice and it works so well for that. And don't get me wrong, Anthony Hopkins isn't really around for much of it. He's obviously around for the beginning, the end and maybe a couple of bits here here and there. are Walter Mattow narrated the book in the 90s. Yeah shout out to him.
00:31:12
Speaker
But yeah, as you were saying at the very beginning, I feel as if with Illumination, if you've seen one Illumination film, then you've probably seen them all. They follow a very similar format in the way they're structured, especially with the characters. And there's nothing wrong with that. but It's just a very safe and clean version. The dog was very like Secret Life of Pets looking.
00:31:33
Speaker
He actually reminded me of my own dog with the big snoot and everything. Whereas with the live action one, again we're getting a very good Ritty Whoville. It's a bit like the difference between Superman versus Batman. I'm going to be honest. It's like we've got the shiny Metropolis and everything and oh look at how wonderful things are here are versus... We live in a society Gotham. Yeah exactly. This is where my parents abandoned me Max. oof but It's quite dark, to be honest, and there is that age about it that, on the one hand, again, if we're looking at this as a faithful adaptation, it's not really. Ron Howard leans into a lot more cynicism, especially when it comes to the commercialisation of Christmas, which is ironically enough a staple when a lot of Christmas films just look at our review a couple of years ago of Jingle All The Way. But at the same time, without that cynical edge, I don't know if this would have been as memorable. Genuinely, I feel as if they'd kept it quite clean and faithful to the original. No one would to be talking about this 24 years later, would they? Yeah, it's hard to say. Jim Carrey is the standout from the movie, which is what everyone really thinks about. Not so much the cynicism of the film, but
00:32:48
Speaker
I do agree that the direction it went in was so unique and just off the wall that it does kind of live long in the memory. Partly because I've seen it so many times now over the years, I can just kind of play the whole movie in my head scene for scene. It doesn't require much of a watch at this most recent time. Just be like, okay, I'm good to go. I kind of know the dialogue for the most part that happens. I still watched it and I still kind of enjoyed watching it, but I didn't really need to pay full attention to it because I knew beat for beat what happens. No, after I'm the same for the It is a film that I think if you were growing up around that time, you have seen hundreds of times that you could probably quote it word for word. As I said before, when I showed this to my partner who had never seen this sub version of The Grinch before, I was saying things like Oh, I love this film growing up. It
Revisiting Plot Twists and Adult Humor in Grinch
00:33:37
Speaker
was great. And there is nothing more sobering than showing someone like a fresh pair of eyes, especially something that you've grown up with and enjoyed as a child. And you're never given that a second thought about why this happens, why that happens. And then they watch it and they're like, why did that happen? Why did this happen? What is this and that? And you start to question that. You're like,
00:34:00
Speaker
actually that is a bit weird and so is this and that and you made a joke about it earlier about this being quite a risky version of the Grinch and it really is at times and again you know it's nothing too scandalous but still it's kind of weird that it's happening in a Dr Seuss that one of all things. You've got the Christmas cannon scene, you know, when she's putting up the lights and everything. A quote from my wife while we were watching this was, that is the sexiest thing that's ever been in a children's movie. She's holding this lighting gun to her crotch and like pounding back and forward as it fires them out and her tongue is out at the side while she's doing it. And then she wipes off her brow like who afterwards. And then she blows it. Oh yeah, then she blows at the end of it, doesn't she? Yeah. It was absolutely insane. My partner, she quote said, Martha May-Houvier is a bad bitch and I love her. ah Yeah, you should get that in a t-shirt to be fair.
00:34:54
Speaker
There are so many weird scenes like that, though, when they explain about the little who boys and who girls that kind of arrived in the little baskets. And there's the comment made by the dad being like, Oh, he looks like your boss. Yes. ahha These kind of jokes that you just don't get when you're a kid, and then you watch back and you're like, Oh, there's like loads of kind of jokes about infidelity and there's a key party scene that is shown where there's unaware grownups go to a party together, put keys into a bowl and then I think the ladies pick keys out at the end of the night and whoever's car that they've picked they go home with. Is that what that was? Oh, you want to wear?
00:35:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's what the implication of the party was. They were all putting the keys in the bowl. Oh my god. Yeah, so it's a tea party. Oh my god. Is that why you they have the thing at the end where they say, oh, we didn't find them until the next morning? Because they were too busy and getting Grinchy with it. Oh, quite possibly, yeah. Oh, good. Oh, wow. The rabbit will go steep. Yeah, so the stuff like that, as you mentioned earlier, he gets catapulted and falls into Martha May Hoovier's breasts, and she is also so horny for him when she's like describing her experience with the Grinch and talking about the muscles, just like various actions that he does like when he returns to the town. Faints from just pure wholeness, I guess. Just raw masculinity, right? Yeah, exactly.
00:36:12
Speaker
And then yeah, it's just so, so bizarre how weird and horny this movie is. Like there's also a reference to earlier, and he swears in this children's movie, he talks about the snow being bitching, which is pretty tame for the most part, but it is a children's movie. So it's a bit weird that they would include that because I mean, that ends up PG isn't it? I mean it's not got anything, again I'm reluctant to say overly offensive but watching back there are a couple of scenes where again you say wow that was a choice. Because this is a problem I have with this film, this is probably my biggest problem I have And again, I just want to reiterate that I do love this film. I think it is nostalgia or not, I do think it is very entertaining to watch. But at the same time, what I don't like is the fact that all the who's part of course in The Lou Who is quite irredeemable until she comes into the picture and is like, oh it's, you know, unite, hold hands and sing. because the whole point, and this is something I was saying to you before we started, but the whole point of The Grinch is The Grinch thinks that this is such a shallow holiday that it's all about the gifts, about the extravagance, the utter affluence of it. People are doing one another, so he steals that particular symbol of Christmas and everybody is going to be miserable, they're going to realise, oh, our holiday's ruined. And then, of course, there's that heartwarming moment where, of course, he listens for the cries like the asshat he is, but then he realises that, oh, they're not crying, they're celebrating because there's so much more to this holiday season. You know, it's about community, it's about getting together with your loved ones and things, and I know obviously there's a lot more to that, it's been very simplistic, but that is the kind of core message that it usually
00:37:55
Speaker
phrase. It was for the original and I think the elimination film does a great job of this as well because no one's really angry that the presents are gone. They're upset initially but then they go, you know what, we're fine, we've got our health, we've got each other, let's just sing and be happy that we're here. winner as in this one. You're watching this, and again, I think I'm affected by one of the lines you mentioned earlier, but you're watching this like the Joker. Like, you know, maybe the Grinch has a point here. or Some people just like to watch the world burn. You get what you deserve. Martha May Hoovier. Why did you say that name? Why is the mayor such a dick?
00:38:35
Speaker
ah ah that's something that genuinely boiled my you-know-what. I was so angry at that when it flashes back and he's like, oh look at the beard on him and it's like, is this lowkey, hoovian racism here? Because he's the only green person of all his kind here and they're like, why are you ragging on the Grinch so much here? It was wicked before wicked. exactly
00:39:01
Speaker
true. I've got no follow-up comment, it's just true. Yeah, he's horrible to him and of course it gets bullied and everything by the mayor and don't get me wrong, the mayor is a fun character to watch be horrible to people but then you remember this is the Grinch. The whole point is him misunderstanding the holiday and then coming to realise that it's not as bad as he thinks it is but yay, he's totally just a I'm not obviously endorsing theft or anything or ruining people's holidays, but at the same time they are oh so, so horrible to him. They build him up as this irredeemable monster that nobody wants to touch with a 10-foot bargeball. One thing that's never explicitly said, but is in my own headcanon as well, is Max. I think the background of Max is that he was a Christmas gift that was thrown out to Aww. And that the Grinch took him in, and that is part of his hatred towards Christmas, that they would throw at someone like Max, and he sort of relates to him in that way. Well, I mean, he makes that comment about kids wanting a pony before they sell them to the glue factory. You know, just as a throwaway line, but my God, that is really sad, but also makes perfect sense.
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, to be honest, he's just such a tragic figure in the 2001, and I know obviously it's a comedy and he really owns the whole being alone and being quite manic with it all, because I love that when he's on his own in his Grinch cave, whatever you call that. The Mount Crumple? Is it Mount Crumpet? Crumpet, Mount Crumpet. Mount Crumpet. It's like a hat though, the mountain. Yeah, it reminds me of, I don't know if you play Banjo-Kazoo, but it reminds me of Spiral Mountain, where it's just like the witch's head on top. I play this now. You're obviously minus the face. It's like a witch's hat. Again, bringing me back to Wicked. It's a bit like the Wicked Witch of the West's hat. Yeah. There's a lot of fan fiction that's going to be written after this episode, doesn't there? The Wicked book itself is fan fiction. Ah well, true. I can see to that. That is very true. So yeah, he's got the scene, of course, where he's going through his list of daily activities like his jazzercise, queuing puddle, hunger, dinner with himself that he can't cancel again. his voicemail. I love the scene. See and see you when he's got the echo when he says, I'm an idiot. You're an idiot. if You're an idiot. I was going to bring that up as well because that's one of my favourite scenes. like It's so simple and so stupid, but it's one of my favourite scenes in the movie. I think it's very clever. But thank back to the Illumination version. It's quite funny how you think about it and you think, oh yeah that had funny moments. And don't get me wrong it did. It had kind of cruel comedy but still quite funny. But at the same time there's nothing that really borrowed one or two maybe scenes. There's nothing that really stands out as memorable for that film. They do other weird physical comedy like he ate two months worth of food rations because he was just had depressive food episodes. I have to admit I found that funny. which was funny. And so they have things like that instead, which you don't really get in the live action one. But yeah as you say, they don't really have the threatening voicemail or the echoing. I actually just remembered what you were talking about with a threatening voicemail. I'll hunt you down and gut you like a fish. Then he's surprised there's no voicemails again. It's like, hmm. Again, there's so many quotable moments. There's that, there's the, we hear doctor that see to this day, I think about this quote like, the caregiver when remember he's doing the competition to become holiday cheermeister and he's getting fed the pudding and there's this like scientist who comes in and goes, this is not pudding. And he's like, what is it? There's some bright green jiggly. What is that? That looks horrible. There's big stuff full of different puddings and fudges or whatever it was. I mean, to be fair, it was a good anti-torture technique. at support I mean, yeah, after the prosthetics, I don't think Jim Carrey needed much more of that. Again, there's so many moments in that film that you could quote, that you could reference. I mean, again, going back to the physical comedy, even the dog, the dog is absolutely amazing in that film. The amount of things they obviously trained him to do. I love the scene when he's auditioning him for Rudolph. He like kicks off the antler and then... No, it's the... He kicks off the evening nose and he's like, brilliant! You should take your own nose because it represents Christmas! And you're like, that is actually really funny!
00:43:17
Speaker
but There's just so many quotable moments that I just don't think is captured in the new one, but again, when I say new one, I mean the one from six years ago, but there's just that cynical age where I think, as a standalone, alternate reality Grinch, maybe? I mean, you know, I'm not very picky about the continuity of the susverse around. But yeah, I think with the Grinch that did inspire Cat in the Hat and that kind of brand of humour, where it was a lot more a new end-oriented. It's very early 2000s. Oh yeah. You don't really get that kind of stuff anymore. No. For better or worse.
00:43:57
Speaker
The Dr. Seuss Grinch book, How the Grinch Tilled Christmas, is very brief, and really the story that you get, you don't really get his origin, to my knowledge. You kind of are given this idea that there is a creature that lives on this mountain, that hates Christmas, hates everything about it, and wants to do something to make it stop. He decides he has a horribly wicked, terribly wonderful plan, or whatever the yeah the wording is of it. He pretends to be Santa. He goes down, steals all the toys and the Christmas trees and all that kind of stuff. He brings it up to Mount Crumpet and then realizes that the Who children and who people don't care that this happened. They still have the Christmas cheer and his heart grows three sizes and he has an epiphany and he's better for it. It looks like I've skipped over some stuff, but I haven't really. That's kind of it. It's very brief. And so to pad out a movie, each of these films decided to give him an origin story. So we got the arrive in a basket and was like this weird evil baby that was raised by these two women and then was like bullied in school, but was loved by Martha May who VA and he loved her and then was embarrassed by an incident with his beard and so ended up running away and then sort of was just kind of grumpy after that. Whereas the Illumination one, he was an orphan, grew up in an orphanage, seemingly alone. This orphanage in a town that is obsessed with Christmas did not celebrate Christmas, and so he felt like he was kind of left out from Christmas, and so was sad because of that. If I'm remembering that wrong then please correct me. No, I think you're right. But I do agree, it is kind of weird to the Kavanh, almost mean girls moment, you know, where it's like, here's your candy cage, here's your roast beast, and none for the orphan's pie.
00:45:35
Speaker
like What was that? You go, Glencoco. For who hashes for you, Glencoco. You go, Glencoco. Yeah, that is a bit grim, I have to say. Something I never really thought of there, but that is actually, yeah, that is actually very grim. I don't think you've really missed much there because at the end of the day, and that is something we've reiterated, that is a very simple story, but at the same time, it's a different approach depending on what you're watching. I preferred the Cindy Lou Who in the live action more than I did in the Illumination. I found Cindy Lou Who in the live action to be very cute. I found the Illumination one to be quite annoying. The desire from the Illumination one to do something special for her mum was very sweet.
00:46:22
Speaker
And it was interesting that they kind of went with a single mum of three kids as opposed to the live action one where it's a whole family and she has like two older brothers and she kind of just gets ignored. Yeah, what happened to her dad? Did he go to find Santa and he just never returned? He got lost in that key party. Did the Grinch kill him?
00:46:42
Speaker
That's the question. All the true crime podcasters who will no doubt be listening to us, please hit us up with your best theories because we gotta know what happened to Cindy Lou who's dad. I mean, based on the lore the 2001 set up, you don't need a father, you just arrive in a basket.
00:46:59
Speaker
Mm, true, true. Maybe there doesn't need to be a dad. But there needs to be a key party apparently. That's very fundamental for some reason. Yes. And there's the one part in the script that is underlined, which is really weird. We're aching on the script, but why are you focusing on this strange orgy party that's happening? It's very important to my vision. It's like, you have run out of time that, and just in the background Jim Cady's screaming like, oh I'll be with you soon, Jim. One minute, Jim. I've got to get the angle right for the orgy. I was a child actor, don't you know? Oh, God. I was friends with River Phoenix. That's nice, Mr. Hubbard. Can I take that smooth mask off?
00:47:40
Speaker
Do you know what I actually do wonder though, is see the scene at the very beginning when he's running around town and he's got the hood up and the mask and everything. Do you think he had the full prosthetics on underneath that mask? Or do you think they just gave him a day off that day? Doesn't seem like the kind of set that was giving him a day off. Yeah, true. He probably had it. It's like, Ron, I'm wearing a mask for God's sake. Let me take it honestly. No, it's integral to my vision of the Grinch. Yeah, okay. Okay Mr Howard, our benevolent leader. Yeah, to kind of wrap up on that point, a very weird point, but a point nonetheless. I feel as if we're looking at both of them. The elimination one, definitely.
00:48:21
Speaker
as the safe one is the it is the loose defensive, but it does a good job of of encapsulating the spirit of the Grinch and the light-heartedness of it. But at the same time, it's just not as memorable. But again, on the flip side of the flip side here, do you think it's not as memorable to us because we didn't grow up with it? but Do you think kids nowadays growing up with that would be more likely to gravitate towards that version? I think that is more likely because I mean, I'm baffled sometimes by some of the things that are popular now. I'm not a fan of a lot of elimination's work. I don't like the Despicable Me Minions verse. Oh, Martin's going to beat you up for that. Yeah, I know. But it's so, so popular. And I don't get it, but I'm not the demographic for it anymore. So I understand that kids are going to like different stuff now. And it's quite likely I know I have two nieces, both of whom love the Illumination Grinch movie, they watch it probably more than the other one, my brother grew up watching the Jim Carrey one, but they will be more likely to watch the Illumination one. Because again, it's also we were talking about some of the kind of more risky things. Now that parents who grew up with those movies, they kind of watch back and they go, Oh, actually, that's not very child appropriate.
00:49:31
Speaker
and so they're less inclined to then show their kids that at that age at least where so if you're younger you're more likely to watch the Illumination one because it's a bit more squeaky clean. As we're looking back in these kind of films and it's definitely a sign of the times because my partner and I re-watched Ghostbusters the other day. On the one hand you see all the toys and things for it, you see the Ecto one, you see oh look there's chasing down funny ghosts. But when you rewatch that, and of course it's a film of the 80s so there's a lot of tropes that don't age well. Yeah pretty much. Yeah Bill Murray is an absolute fiend.
00:50:11
Speaker
I'm like, you're starting off a Netflix documentary. Bill Murray is a fiend. I have to tell the story. The truth must come out. The Bill Murray Chronicles. Oh, yeah, no, I agree. I do not know. And maybe I'll get the ire of Ghostbusters fans out there. Why they chose him as the leading man, I will never know. Rewatching it, I was like, yeah, he is the speck.
00:50:36
Speaker
He's such a creep. He really is. I mean, granted, fortunately, he quotes himself back when she's possessed and everything, but yeah beyond that, he is just a total creep throughout the whole film. And again, you know, it's the 80s. It was different tropes, different times, etc. and That probably might be an episode that... Different strokes for different strokes. Yeah, exactly. It's not something you'd see in the family-friendly Jim Carrey version, clearly, where he burns down a tree and...
00:51:03
Speaker
God, there's several car crashes. There is a body count in this film. What's with the really tiny Whovians? I do not know. That was such a weird thing that was ah added in. I don't know if that's a Dr. Seuss thing with the Grinch as well. They're all like a snowflake. And so they're all tiny people on a snowflake. And then there's tinier people that just kind of live in society with them. Yeah, because you're like, oh, it's that kids. And it's like, no, they've got the makeup and everything. And you're like, yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, the important here's a who people.
00:51:31
Speaker
that live in the flower? Were they just taking a holiday or something? And this snowflake? What is going on in this world? I don't know what I'm building! All joking aside, obviously you have to suspend your disbelief, and it's a wacky world with a green man who steals Christmas, but at the same time, yeah that was weird. I don't get the worries at all. Again, not the weirdest thing in the film, but still enough for you to raise an eyebrow and go, hmm, that Grinch probably killed people. I mean, he probably killed that yodeling person. Yeah there's such a weird scenes like when he's going through and he's going down the tree and then he crashes the tiny car and he's like everyone move and he runs away and has this like huge explosion. What I love about that is after the devastation you see the tree burnt and dead and
00:52:15
Speaker
they are fuck Well, as in are the people safe? Is everybody okay? His first thought is to go to a child and go, well done you ruined Christmas. I know, he immediately looks to blame this child. ah Oh, he is a despicable human being. The one thing Ron Howard did get 110% down was just the despicableness of that guy. Of government. Of government. Of the system. It's a very libertarian movie. Yeah.
00:52:46
Speaker
but It's probably got a manifesto, hashtag steel trees, for the good reason that's a joke, do not steal trees. In all seriousness, I do think, and this sounds like such a non-committal way to wrap up the episode, but genuinely it's really just down to personal preference. If you are looking for that cosy nostalgia blanket and you're looking for that physical comedy, then Jim Carrey's version is the one for you, but if you're looking for that quote unquote more squeaky clean version, which is also a great crack at the original story, then yeah, definitely go for that. Or alternatively, do what I did. Watch both at the same time. Watch the original while you're at it. What, side by side? Did you have them on side by side? Yeah, I had Subway Surfers at the bottom as well. A bit of a family guy in like a corner. I'm part of the TikTok generation now, apparently.
00:53:32
Speaker
Now, jokes aside, I did watch it one day after the other. I also watched Nativity, which is a great film I should review sometime. But I've never watched that. Oh, it's so, so good. But again, that is a story for another episode. So, Andrew, thank you so, so much for coming on this episode and getting grungy with it. no Thank you so much for inviting me on to talk about these two movies that gave me kind of a chance to watch the Illumination one. I've been holding up and watching it for so long because I just kind of protested the existence of it, but I've learned that it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be and that is not the opinion of my wife. She hated it, but it was good to be able to so talk about this and apparently educate you on some of the innuendos that were hidden in the 2000 movie. I'm going to be celebrating Christmas as a very different person.
00:54:13
Speaker
that she are just like, I know this, why do I know this? But no, in all seriousness, thank you so so much for coming on and yes indeed celebrating this iconic set of films. But before we wrap up and wish these lovely listeners a very Merry Christmas, where can these lovely listeners find your content?
00:54:31
Speaker
Ah, thank you so much for asking. They can find me on many other similar Chatsunami episodes, wherever podcasts can be found, Chatsunami. We recently did Dragon Ball Month, so I was on three episodes of that. So I'm on many, ah many of the episodes over the past couple of years. So please do check them out. Only listen to mine. Mine are the better ones, but yeah If you want to listen to the others, then yeah, I guess that's fine too. You can also find me on Twitter. I do have Blue Sky, but I don't really use it. You can find me on Twitter at greenchill95. And you can find my other podcasts that I also do with Satsunami and as well as fellow co-host Martin McAllister and Robot BattleToaster, which is a D and&D Let's Play podcast called Stop, Drop and Roll Initiative or SDRI Pod. And that can be found on all good podcast platforms, Stop, Drop and Roll Initiative and on Twitter at SDRI Pod. But what about you, Satsunami? Well, I'm glad you asked. If you would like to listen to more episodes from ourselves, as well as all upcoming episodes in three months, then you can listen to us on the website, Chatsunami dot.com, as well as all good podcast apps. I also want to thank our amazing Pandalorian patrons, Robotic Battle Toaster, Sonya and Ghosty. Thank you so, so much for supporting the show. And if you'd like access to exclusive episodes, early access, as well as Andrew's key tips about the Grinch, then of course you can check out our patreon page patreon dot.com forward slash chat tsunami and of course just today if you would like to check us out on other social media you can check us out on twitter slash x at chat tsunami pod or if you want to check us out on blue sky which i don't think i mentioned yet but yep we are indeed on blue sky at chat tsunami so feel free to check us out there and we are indeed
00:56:11
Speaker
everywhere. We are on Instagram, we are on YouTube, we are in all the lovely places so definitely come and check out our content. But on behalf of everybody at Chatsanami, and I'm sure you'll agree, Andrew. Oh, my heart's grown three sizes. Call an ambulance, call an ambulance. Yep, as I wrap up this episode quickly to call an ambulance. In all seriousness, I just want to wish all the lovely listeners out there who are celebrating this festive season a very Merry Christmas. As always, stay safe this holiday season, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated. Stay Grinchy.