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Not even our Final Form! Dragon Ball's Transformations || Dragon Ball Month
50 Plays19 days ago
In the year 2024, a red panda, a wrestler and a chibi co-host power up to defeat the forces of evil in Dragon Ball Month! From transformations and fusions to live action and musings of living in this world, you will not want to miss this month!
In this episode, Satsu is joined by Martin MacAlistair to delve into the weird and wonderful world of Dragon Ball transformations! But how super IS Super Saiyan? Why is Mystic non existent? And who really kaio-kens what is going on anyone?! Welcome to Dragon Ball Month!
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Transcript
Introduction of Super McAllister
00:00:03
Speaker
After all this time, it has come to this. A fight between the Prince of Podcasters and the Champion himself, Martin McAllister. I've been training a long time for this moment. Unfortunately Satsu, you're not dealing with the average wrestler anymore. Behold, Super McAllister!
00:00:23
Speaker
Did you just die a hair blonde? But wait, there's more introducing Super Dipper McAllister. Okay, you just put on the wrong leg there. And this is to go even further beyond!
00:00:41
Speaker
Look, we could be here for five namic minutes going back and forth. Let's just start the episode and... Oh, come on! You just took off your shirt! How is that a transformation? And this is super difficult of a Callisto 4!
Welcome to Dragon Ball Month
00:00:57
Speaker
Welcome to Dragon Ball Month.
00:01:04
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the first episode of Dragon Ball Month. My name is Satanami and joining me to power up today is none other than the one and only champion himself, Martin McAllister. Martin, welcome back. Thank you. It is lovely to be here and I cannot wait to dive into the world of Dragon Ball with you. Oh, me neither. because I have to say, is it right to say that you were the one that instigated this month? Yeah, I think we were looking for something to do out there. We were looking for different themed months and I really wanted to do Dragon Ball. You're the one that's sort out well. There's a big anniversary coming up. So yeah, I'm very excited for this. And before we jump into this topic, because trust me, we will have a lot to say about this particular topic, but what is your history with the franchise. So I think a lot of people in the yeah UK, I would sit and watch it on, is it Toonami,
Dragon Ball Nostalgia and Influence
00:01:54
Speaker
the name of the the channel? Yeah. It was like a Cartoon Network affiliate channel. One of my memories of it is my grandma had Sky TV and my family didn't, so everyone at my grandma's would sit and watch it. She'd be always be like, it's nothing but shouting. it It's just people shouting all the time. And I'd be like, no, no, grandma, you don't understand. This is important. Oh, they're shouting. And I went back and watched it as an adult, you know what? It's just full of shouting. But I love Dragon Ball Z so much.
00:02:18
Speaker
I mean, you wouldn't get the muscles, but you could go to Glasgow for the same experience. Very similar, very similar. What's a Kamehameha has been thrown out? But sorry. That was more or less a voice you would experience in history with Dragon Ball. Well, I have to say I had a bit of a... I don't want to say an anime phase because Dragon Ball was one of those animes that I didn't really know was an anime, if that makes sense. Yeah, we spoke about that during Pokemon Month as well. We had like the same... It's just one of those that have been ever present Yeah so the Pokémon anime and although I didn't really watch it Sailor Moon as well, you know those kind of animes that came over here for kids and you know they were so popular and you just thought they were cartoons. You never really thought oh this is Japanese animation. I can't wait to see this and that but I remember watching it and again I've spoken length about this with Andrew who trust me I'll be getting him off. later on.
Dragon Ball's Formative Impact on Anime
00:03:13
Speaker
But yeah, a couple of months ago we talked about how much the franchise meant to us, because of course in the year that this is being recorded, Akira Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, unfortunately passed away. So we just had to immediately jump in and just say how much this franchise meant to us. But I have to agree with you on the shouting ban.
00:03:33
Speaker
Because I remember watching it and thinking, you know, this is a great anime, but it was very formulaic, which, don't get me wrong, that's not what I was really thinking of when I was younger. But I know that if you watch any other anime and then you come back to this one, you can tell it's a little bit kind of repetitive at times. Is that though looking at it through the eyes of someone that has then gone away and watched a lot of other stuff? You know, if you like at think of the timeline of Dragon Ball, like this was what, 1990 or something? it starts it's quite early in my hand yeah it is but now it's a formative part of the genre it can be forgiven i think for its repetitiveness oh no a hundred percent i mean it's so iconic that a lot of other anime seem to copy it and a lot of regards which is so cool not gonna lie It's probably cool to see the influence that it's given to an animes like my girlfriend and I recently we've been watching that spy family and there's actually a reference in it there where the group of kids in it they are trying to train for a dodgeball tournament so there's like one particular scene where it's one of the wee boys on Namek
00:04:41
Speaker
In real life, it's just like a tire
Influence on Childhood and Internet Era
00:04:44
Speaker
sling. Hit number, of course. And his mind is like a big energy blast and that makes it absolutely hilarious. But yeah, I was in the same boat really, because I remember at the primary school that I went to that it was so popular that kids were actually playing Dragon Ball Z. Not actually punching one another, but you know, fake fighting, fake punching, etc. fake shouting. And I remember there was a lot of arguments about who wanted to be who, because at the time when I was in, I want to say primary three or four, maybe, the episode where Trunks arrived, you know, where they splatched threes in half, that was so cool. And I remember that episode came out, so every single kid wanted to be Trunks. And, you know, there were other kids saying to me, oh, you can be Frieza if you want. I was like, I don't want to be Frieza! I don't know what happens to him cleaved enough. So yeah, it was absolutely iconic to me growing up, but I always remember one time watching it because I mainly watched, you know, the Namek saga, the, again, even before that, the Saiyan saga, etc. But then I think I fell away from the Boo saga. I don't know. Were you the same? I was thinking about this just as you're talking because I don't think, I don't know if that ever it aired. The same, you know, in if the way that, like, serialization works on shows. I knew a lot of the Frieza saga. off by heart. So I don't know if it was just the way it was repeated on TV that it never got to the Boo Tiger and UK maybe did. I certainly vaguely knew of Majin Boo but like that was about it. I didn't know about anything else and it wasn't until I was a little bit older. I think maybe it was like starting to become a teenager because we were quite lucky and that the internet was quite young when we were teenagers and a lot of the Dragon Ball stuff got just dumped online. So that was how I ended up watching a lot of the movies and caught up with a lot of Dragon Ball Z and then sort of the end of GT was it all through where it's like daily motion. that
00:06:30
Speaker
it was just like an uncorporated landscape and the games oh of course yeah just trying to remember of all there's so many of the games aren't we could have done an entire month just talking about the game series because there's so many of them as rpgs as fighting games as jump force i'll pretend you didn't say jump force in that last one yeah it's happening we're doing a jump force episode one day next week on dragon Yeah, going back to that point, I think they did have the Boo saga, but I don't know if it was just that stage in our lives, you know? Because we grew up, as we said, with the Saiyan saga, because that's when it obviously all began, with the farmer and the shotgun. Then we went on to the Frieza saga, the Android and the Cell saga. I watched them bit at the beginning of the boost saga, but I never really kept up with it until, as you said, the internet came to be as it is now, or at least in its formative years. And yeah, i caught up with it that way. I saw all the wonderful fan art, which trust me will be addressing in this episode. yeah hair Oh, so iconic. I'm gonna dub it. I have a note here that just says Super Saiyan 100 question mark.
00:07:40
Speaker
I thought you were going to say Super Saiyan 5 and it's the... No, no, no, no, that's lame. Oh, of course. But yeah, I don't know if we watch much of the Buu saga. In fact, I tell a lie. There was one episode, I don't know why, but I remember my family was turning around and being like, oh, is this this Dragon Ball show you're like, let's watch an episode together?
00:08:00
Speaker
And it was one of the episodes where it was the absolutely awful. It was Majin Boo
Significance of Transformations in Dragon Ball
00:08:05
Speaker
as, I think it was like Majin Boo's day out or something? And it was like, it was a Majin Boo's centric episode? So I had to sit there and watch Majin Boo mess around town and everything, and they're watching this as if that's what you're into.
00:08:22
Speaker
And I was like, that's where there's punching and fighting and things. But I don't don't think they um quite believed me that day. But speaking of that, the anime itself is iconic. But one of the most iconic things about it, and I'm sure you'll agree here, is the transformations. Now, anime has, and this is something we brought up in the anime tropes episode, but animes do have a huge thing when it comes to shonen animes where characters are fighting one another and, you know, they have to go all out. to power up and whatever. It's such a cool part of the anime, but Dragon Ball really puts an emphasis on it, doesn't it? Yeah, it helps in that these transformations, particularly for Dragon Ball, are so brilliant looking. you know and I think that's like a huge part as well. They're iconic, not just for the transformations, but for the look of them themselves. And I think as well we were talking about the ages we were. Did you ever try to turn Super Saiyan? Kind of. Yeah, I think I gave up halfway through. I was like, yeah. This is boring.
00:09:20
Speaker
discipline ah I'm not going to lie, I think I probably would have passed out if I tried Super Saiyan 3. So I'm glad I didn't see that episode beforehand. Satsu, what luck here you have. Where are your eyebrows? But I take it you did. of course yeah i mean I think any Dragon Ball fan who says they haven't is lying. You know who you are. you're lying ah So today we are going to take a jaunt down memory lane and yeah we're going to be talking about one of the most iconic things about the Dragon Ball series. We are going to be talking about the, hor honestly I cannot stress enough, the most iconic transformations in anime you will ever see. So for the sake of brevity I've split it up into three sections. So we've of course got the same transformations. We have our villain transformations and last but not least we've got our, well, miscellaneous bag. And in case you're wondering what's a miscellaneous bag, you will find out.
00:10:25
Speaker
right after these messages. welcome to shatanami a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime in general interest Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:11:12
Speaker
We are Sizing Cinema. I'm Colin. I've probably not seen it. Paul's watched it in an order. And I'm James, and I've probably written an essay on it. And that side of the cinema, we believe in the power of escapism.
00:11:28
Speaker
That was a long power up and we are back. So Martin, are you ready to dive into the world of Dragon Ball transformations? I am so ready. So let's kick off with the Saiyans. Oh man, they are the most iconic part of this, aren't they? Out of curiosity, and I'm going to jump ahead a little bit because I'm going to hone in on four particular transformations, that of course being Super Saiyan 1-4. What was your favourite growing up? Right, for what it's worth, I'm going to preface this. You're going to put your shirt back on. You're going to put your shirt back on.
00:12:08
Speaker
It's just so I can blow it back up again when I change them all. So one thing that I love about Super Saiyan 1-4 is that it also isn't Super Saiyan 1-4, does it? Because it's like Super Saiyan 1, then 1 in a bit, then 1 in a bit in a different direction, then 1 muscular, then you know what I mean? There's lots of little
00:12:27
Speaker
<unk>s like arm race with each other so I love Super Saiyan 1. I think everyone does. I think that's the iconic transformation. The big one against Frieza and then obviously Trunks coming in with it. and Like the two of my favourite transformations. But actually my favourite Super Saiyan transformation entirely is the Super Saiyan 1 variant. and it's not the muscle one, surprisingly. I think everyone's expecting me to say the muscle one. My favourite one is the one, I don't know if that ever gets an official name, but when Goku and Gohan come out of the time chamber and the whole gimmick is that they have spent their whole time as Super Saiyans and their hair changes colours lighter and stuff and I think that's such a great concept of this. because You know, Dragon Ball every so often dips its tool back into the martial arts. ideas in this idea of
00:13:05
Speaker
this transformation can all be achieved through rage but they've managed to horn it back under control and they can stay in this agitated state for days at a time i think is just the most brilliant rate and and i think it's such a clever ideas such a clever twist that vegita and trunks were looking for more power but they sort of switched on his head and werere like how can we become one with us power and is a veryt ze
00:13:27
Speaker
ideas in this
00:13:34
Speaker
I know this is a Dragon Ball fashion episode but... If we're doing the Dragon Ball fashion episode, we're talking about Trunks exploding his jacket in the broling. He's keeping his terror in business, okay? He's sending them to, I don't know, Central City College or whatever they call it. No, I'm actually with you there because I have to say, watching that arc was just the coolest thing to see because you're completely right. The whole concept of a scene is a whole space warrior race who are forged in just this constant rage and punching things. So to have this martial artist who was raised on the earth learned about these values, I mean let's face it, technically they're probably Buddhist values, but let's call them space Buddhist values because it is based off the character Sun Wukong. If I know anything about Sun Wukong, I know he got bodied by Buddha. so
00:14:27
Speaker
but So who would win? Goku or Buddha? That's next week's episode. But anyway, yeah, the fact that he has this zen and mindfulness and things I think is absolutely brilliant. So I can disagree with you there, but yeah, the other transformations are so I don't know, I don't want to be cruel and say they were ill thought out, but I feel as if this might get me absolutely destroyed or finally flashed by the Dragon Ball i community. But my least favourite, see out of all four of these, my least favourite is Super Saiyan 2. Yeah. Because I feel as if it's what Super Saiyan probably should have been. Oh, it's mastered Super Saiyan or something, and I know technically that's what it is, but they do their best to make a a different form and whatever, and I don't know. I think, see, without the lightning, it's genuinely hard to tell the difference between the two. I mean, other than the fact that the hairs are little bits, spike here, but I feel as if it's a waste of opportunity because later on in the series we get a clear distinction between transformations with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and so on and so forth. So yeah, I would say that's the weakest ah of them. yeah
00:15:41
Speaker
I think I'd agree and I think obviously Gohan's big power-up at the end of Selsaga is like incredible itself but yeah it's just big hair and box and stuff and you can compare that to I think what I think is probably the best individual transformation in the whole franchise which is Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs Blue one just like the actual animation for it's incredible but sometimes watch it when I'm on the steel master at the gym just to pass like two minutes But it's like an incredible transformation and it's so visually different. His features get drawn out and obviously his eyebrows go away and his hair gets dead long.
Design Philosophy of Transformations
00:16:10
Speaker
And yeah, I think Super Saiyan 2 is missing that iconic feature. Yeah. Because obviously Super Saiyan 1 has the blonde hair, Super Saiyan 3 has the long blonde hair, and Super Saiyan 4, they've gone red and they have the tail and stuff. And then like you mentioned Super Saiyan God know that they all have their own distinct colours. and other features that put things out. And I feel like Super Saiyan 2 just never really got. I couldn't tell you the difference if I was looking at two pictures side by side of them. You just kind of have to guess of when it is in the franchise to guess what their transformation is. Because that was something interesting and I can't remember who said it, but it was like a behind the scenes thing when they were designing the Super Saiyan God form. And if you look at the bodies of both Goku and Vegeta later on in the Broadway film, that new one, not the one with the death little and kept getting bodied. You see that their bodies get a lot leaner. Their hair turns red and they made a very conscious choice about that. They didn't want it just to be big and muscular, they wanted something sleek and elegant. It was a really interesting design philosophy. The same with Super Saiyan Blue, although I'm personally not a big fan of that. think it's kind of silly to layer Gotud upon Gotud. Again, ironically enough, that is something that Sun Wukong would probably do, because he is OP by the way, but yeah, to add one on top of the other, it's a bit much. But again, the color of blue, blue isn't really a angry color. It's one of mindfulness and calm, serenity. But yeah, going back to the other ones, Creed Super Days. I have to say, one thing, and this again sounds so silly, but one thing that I really miss, and I don't know if you've picked up on this, is the actual Super Saiyan transformation animation itself. For example, the Frieza saga, and especially when Goku transforms in front of the androids, and see how his hair slowly moves up. Yes. Especially with Trunks as well when you first meet him, and his hair slowly goes up. I kinda miss that. I don't even know what the correct term would be like. I think ceremony. yeah it's like a ceremony there's like a kind of build-up whereas now the animators just have to flash one frame of white and then it comes back and the hair's blowing and you're like oh okay there's a scene i think in the boo saga towards the end where goku transforms into super sin 3 and i kid you not it's like one frame
00:18:31
Speaker
He's normal and he's like okay here we go and then he just transforms into Super Saiyan 3 and you're like whoa what the hell happened there?
Transformation Impact Over Time
00:18:37
Speaker
But would you say that that it got diluted over time? Yeah I think when you have so many Super Saiyans as well like that was always something you know if you compare by the time they get to the Booze saga they've got like six Super Saiyans even if you include all the different transformations within that you know Goku's got three levels, Duke has got two levels Gohan, Trunks goes in all on so if you can compare it like there's to
00:19:14
Speaker
Oh yeah, but I can turn Super Saiyan. I think just over time though, you just have to get to the sake of brevity when you've got that many characters transforming. It's a tough one. Yeah, because they do try to handwave that and I know the Dragon Ball nerds and the audience right now will be saying, well actually it's because they're like a Saiyan hybrid. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Saiyan hybrids get more powerful and whatnot and yeah, I think it's probably more your reasoning there. of it. It is just such a vast cast and let's face it, a lot of people get sidelined, especially from Dragon Ball. Look at Yamcha Tien after the sales saga. Choutsu as well, he's barely in it anymore. Not that I was ever calling for Choutsu to be in there. Massive Toutsu fans. Chausu No. 1. But yeah, you know, you don't have as many of these old characters and they're sidelined for the Saiyan variety ever. It actually takes a god of destruction to shake up the hierarchy. That is just a crazy thought. Of course, before we go on to the villains and of course the miscellaneous ones, there's a big Ozaru in the room right now that we need to discuss. Yeah, there's a great ape shaped elephant in his room. Ultra instinct, let's talk about that.
00:20:27
Speaker
I mean, see before we go on because now I'm curious. I have to know your opinions on Ultra Instinct because I won't be able to sleep till I do. I love Ultra Instinct. I think it's one of the best transformations in the show. Yeah, I can't disagree with that. It's for the same reason I really like Ascended Super Saiyan that I just love this concept of when things keep getting more and more powerful,
00:20:48
Speaker
with sheer head-on collisions. It's nice to have something that is a switch and I think Ultra Instinct is almost based on this real-life thing which is like this like real-life thing that athletes find. I can't believe you call it now but you'll see athletes and they'll they'll talk to some athletes and stuff and they won't remember anything they did but they were just in that perfect zen moment and they went gold because i just they're not thinking about anything and that's what Ultra Instinct does, it's just like this complete real life calmness and I just love that as a concept and I think it's up there for me with like the best transformations overall. I think it's so nice to just have a switch of just we're no longer just shouting each other with loggerheads, it's a different style to transformation. Yeah, because as much as I don't really like Dragon Ball Super the same, even though it has some of the same faults as he did, I will say it's quite interesting that they go less for angry transformations with the exception of Trunks, which he gets like a really weird pseudo-god transformation that's like Super Saiyan Blue Rage or Magnum Blue or what's the Zoolander one? Blue Magnum.
00:21:51
Speaker
ah dear god is beautiful. It's kind of cool, but again, I don't want to be that guy who's like, oh, there's no basis for it, but there has to be some kind of baseline for these rules, you know, in transformations. You can't just say, oh yeah, this is Super Saiyan Blah Blah. I think that was the issue when they got to Super Saiyan 4 and Dragon Ball GT, because as cool as I think Super Saiyan 4 is. I think it is a really cool transformation, even though I think it's really weird that it summons leather pants for you in no shirt. That is a very specific transformation. And the fact is well as well is Goku transforms into a Golden Ozaru and then he transforms back again and into the Super Saiyan 4 form. But that's because of some...I think it's called Blood waves or something like that. Very specific waves from this moon and then Bulma creates fake ones, or rather a machine that shoots out fake ones so that Vegeta can transform and he does the same. It seems like a very specific set of circumstances.
00:22:56
Speaker
Why was this a thing that the body could do in the first place? There's no way to train for that. Can you imagine someone going to the gym being like, oh, I can't wait till the next Bloodswave moon or whatever. Yeah, I'm going to transform into Super Body Builder 4 over here. I think that's probably why I'm not as big a fan on Super Saiyan 4 as a concept and the Dragon Ball Super Transformations is. What I like about it is always for Super Saiyan 1-3 is the fact and it's a theme that runs throughout the show that these characters worked towards these transformations and you know they built up themselves and they thought okay I'm gonna push myself even further beyond and obviously it's over the top and anime like but At least you could kind of say, oh wow this character's trying to do the best he can and it was through his own motivation as opposed to going to a god and asking for some personal trainer lessons. Yeah I agree with that but I think what I would say is I think Ultra Instinct fits into the category of Super Saiyan 1 to 3. Oh yeah. That's like the one caveat I'll have on that because I do agree with you. I did think it was weird. It was like the way that they got past their current limitations was just by getting help. I know it was a bit weird but I'll try and think like the combination of going back to that Goku's managed to retrain his brain. So that is the one that I will say.
Power Scaling and Villain Designs
00:24:12
Speaker
Out of the super transformations, the one that I'll say fits. That category quite nicely. Oh no, absolutely. The final one of course is I was going to make a joke and say like Gohan beast form or something. Oh, the Gohan... Well, Gohan, go on, go on. Gohan, when Elder Kai unlocks his potential dynamic saga, yeah. So this one... I put that in miscellaneous for a reason. I'm just thinking of all the games with like Kid Gohan open bracket, unlock potential clothes bracket and that would be the name of the character. Yeah, we'll get to that in the miscellaneous. Sorry, sorry. I feel as if we're putting off the gradient. I don't even know why but it's fine.
00:24:54
Speaker
It's a really cool form, I have to say, but obviously it's not really necessary after superscenes unlocked that and they cut off their tails of course, but even then I think it was more obviously relevant in Dragon Ball because yeah the power scaling was different and when someone threatened to destroy the world it was a credible threat, not just another Tuesday. you know It was interesting and that regard. But yes, it's quite cool and I also find it both horrifying and hilarious that Frieza found a bunch of these warriors in space. He could transform into giant monkeys through them at a planet and was like, go ape!
00:25:34
Speaker
ah but only instructions go ape have a good time and they just destroy the whole galaxy it is crazy umies and but other than that i don't think there's really many others i mean there's beast the one we kind of joked about but to be honest that's just another oh look there's Gohan in an extra shiny thing. And there's of course Broly's transformation with legendary Super Saiyan, which is just green hair and anger dishes. Yep. I like the movie Broly that makes him really big. I think that's funny. And then you've kind of got the other world Saiyans from Super, the other universe Saiyans. They've got like kind of similar transformations. It's cool, but I don't have much to say about this. By that point, we've seen so many. You know what I mean? It's more Super Saiyans. There's not really anything else that they can do with the Super Saiyan. Because I know, and again I won't talk too much about it, but there's Vegeta in the manga, I think he's got Super Ego instead of Ultra Instinct. Or sorry, Ultra Ego, that's it. Which is just him with purple hair and he's just again very angry. So it's like, wow, look at this majestic go-k. Very mindful, very, very demure. I was gonna say it! But I now hold yourself together. I have no such imp impulse control.
00:26:50
Speaker
Well we move on to the villains, because the villains have quite an interesting archetype, and I hate to say it, but they all do exactly the same thing, especially in Z. I can't think off the top of my head for Dragon Ball, but I think they're more fantasy, mystical in that kind of regard. But then when you get to Dragon Ball Z, you've got 3's of 7 Majin Buu. Those are the three main villains, not including obviously Vegeta and Nappa and the big and then they always transform into a very humanoid shape.
00:27:28
Speaker
and this continues even now becauseve i've been seeing stuff from the super man guy've not caught with it but i've seen him they have this goat guy and he starts looking like a goat and then by inov it he just looks like so and yeah it's a weird one because I'll say that out of the free rank of folks in those freemium villains, Frees are selling Boo, they all kind of have a point where they all look really similar and it's really weird. I think Frees is probably the one that avoids this the most because his is slightly different but the Boo in sell comparisons, especially Super Boo when he absorbs people, is bonkers close to sell. It's so similar. Yeah, it's like, you know those old art books you used to get where it was like how to draw an anime character? yeah Or draw your own manga? And it was always the same face they got you to draw. That's what it feels like. And don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising the artist for this anime. I think they do a fantastic job. But I feel as if the problem lies in the similarity of it. You know, they've got the stern eyes, they've got the big noses, the chiseled jawline. As you said, it's far too similar, especially with Superboo and Cell. They are the identical. Although shout out to the guy who animated Cell and the Dragon Ball GT arc that one time. Whoever you are. I hope you're doing okay. because that was even traumatising watching that. But yeah, I agree with you in Frieza, because I feel as if Frieza at least seems a lot more alien. yeah He's got the three toes, and he's got the big tail, and the kind of round alien head. He's also short, which I know sounds stupid, but it makes him at least distinct. You could pick his profile out. Because this is the thing that I have to admit I absolutely love about Cell, is he is in perfect form. yes I think his imperfect form, ironically enough, is perfect.
00:29:11
Speaker
because genuinely, I remember the first time we saw him, and as I said, I watched this probably the same time as you. I remember seeing Yamcha get absolutely bodied by Dr. Giro and everything, and they were hunting for the two androids. Of course, we get the iconic Vegeta moment that he turns to the percent, but because the editors didn't like Giro in 19, they were like, okay, we need three new androids. They brought out 17, 18, and 16, and I know that was a weird way to phrase it, but trust me, it makes sense in my head. Yeah, it was really cool to see them, but again, they're just humans. Well, robot android humans, but they're not really as dis distinct. But then, of course, you get Cell who's this horrible bug creature who literally drinks people through his tail. You see whole cities that have been, for lack of a better term, drained. Did you feel horrified when you first saw that as a kid? The figure of sale has never been seen like that in Dragon Ball, like the tail and the weird bug mouth. Obviously Freeza had a bunch of alien references in his transformations, but this one we didn't even have a mouth. It was very unusual for Dragon Ball to include stuff like that. Yeah, because he felt very much more... Again, I don't want to say alien, but he felt very primal, an actual monster. Yeah. But then we get to semi-perfect sale and I hate it.
00:30:27
Speaker
It is the lips. I know Dragon Ball abridged me that joke of, oh look, I can think of my lips, but I hate it so much. I doubt any anime animators are going to be listening to this episode, but stop it with the thick lips. I don't get it. I don't get why this is a trope. I don't get why it weaseled its way into Dragon Ball. It's just It's just so aesthetically unpleasing and I don't mean as an oh that's a scary monster. It's like how did we go from oh that's a terrifying cicada looking bug man to big lip man. I don't know what the thought process was. ah Yeah and then of course you've got Boo which I have to say I did like how Boo was very, for lack of a better term, pleasantly plump. Mmm, he's jolly. Yeah, exactly. He's jolly but that makes him even scarier in a way like at the fact he's too like, so funny to me. Because even when you've got other people like Dabura and, I mean, Babidi's kind of distinct. He's not overly bad and I think it's the same with Garlic Jr as well earlier on. He's more demon-like but even then it always reverts back to, oh, they're humanoid.
00:31:34
Speaker
but yeah so I don't know, would you say the same thing for Super as well, that they have that problem? I don't even think who the villains are and super so you've got... I mean, you've got a cat, but then you've got... Zim-a-dass-a-nim-a-noo. Yeah. Zim-a-zam-a-lam. Yeah. That's you. For legal reasons, we know it's Zamasu. Oh, I didn't. I was hoping you were gonna say it first. I had no idea what he's called. Yeah, you've got him and then he fuses and again he just looks like any other person. then you're like but One thing I'll say in defence of these transformations is at least an interest in how they get between them. I think it's probably something that while I prefer phrases visually, him just being like okay I can just choose to power up is fine. But I like how Cell and Boo have different wind conditions, so to speak. It makes like the fight's a little more interesting, so obviously Cell has to absorb the androids and imagine Boo does that weird split and then absorbs himself, but is able to then absorb other people and then obviously same with, what was his name? What, Xamisser? That's the one. I don't know why I could not keep that in my head. His transformations are different again. I like that when a baddie at least has a different conditions. I just remember Xamisser turns into the sky at one point. Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
I totally forgot what happened. Yeah, he turned into a Windows screensaver. So he does. What's that transformation called? I don't know, Xamasu XP. I'm going to have a look at it like that.
00:32:52
Speaker
But yeah, I like how these transformations, even though visually I'm not as in love with them, I do like how they have different conditions to get there rather than just, I'm going to transform now. No, you have a point. Because I mean, even with Cell, he gets punched so hard that he refers back to semi-perfect Cell and they spits out Android 18, which is very weird because... Very gross. It's very gross but it's also very weird because, and I genuinely don't know if the anime explains this, sorry I'm going off on the site Angelina, I love to hear it. But you know how Android 17 just turns up in Super and is like, oh yeah I'm a park ranger. And all I can think is, hello Super. I like that bit but I'm like how are you here?
00:33:32
Speaker
I thought you got disintegrated in Cel's body, how about you here? I know why obviously Android 18 got revived and everything but what was the deal there? Because they never really... do they explain it or am I just going nuts? No, I think even Android 18 just coming out into you there the entire time just as your entire body went perfect Cel was about. It is confusing. Okay, that's fine. But genuinely I've been carrying this trauma for years.
00:33:54
Speaker
but I just had to double check. I'm like, this is a very, very strange condition. Anyway, yeah, thinking back to Super, there's not really many off the top of my head.
Golden Frieza and Lesser-Known Transformations
00:34:04
Speaker
There's Jiren, but I wouldn't really class him as a villain, and he doesn't really have transformations. He has a power-up. Is it Toppo? Or, you know, he's friend to the Lorax with the big last addition. he kind of has a god of destruction power up. But again, it's not really his power up, it's more like him utilizing the energy. Before we go on to the final set of transformations, what are your thoughts on Golden Frieza? I like him. but I love the concept that he actually just bawled to try and that was it. Turns out all he had to do was just take a week to train. I think it was really funny. It's Is it a bit naff in the overall structure of Dragon Ball? Probably. But I do like the concept of he was given everything on a plate and so when he actually had to try for things he could actually do, that's just a really funny concept. And it's a great looking transformation as well. Am I right in saying that he chose that cover? Yeah, they kinda make a reference to that. He wanted to do it. It's like a big hit super scene. That is so weird, isn't it? That's so funny. Number one hater. But that just raises so many questions. It's like, if you are a freezer's race, what colour would you want to be? It's like, would you want to be green, blue, paint pink? Oh well, of course. 100%.
00:35:10
Speaker
I mean, the only one that I have to admit that is cooler than Freezer's is Cooler's. That Phase 4 transformation, that is incredibly sick. I don't even know why he has that organic built-in mask, but brian it's so cool. but That's all I wanted to say for that.
00:35:28
Speaker
It's a shame that was never canonised for Freezer because it is the coolest transformation of his species. Oh absolutely. Do you know people keep calling them frost demons? It's cool but I don't know if that's the official term for them but yeah as a kind of final thoughts for that particular thing, I do think the Dragon Ball definitely has an issue with humanising. Well not humanising, sorry that's the wrong word, that makes me sound like a psycho.
00:35:52
Speaker
making them seem more human in design rather than the monsters that they're supposed to be with the exception of the 13th Dragon Ball film. You're the big bug thing that comes out of the flute. I can't remember his name and I remember I looked it up and I said I'm not going to say that because I won't butcher that name. I mean there's Janemba as well but that's an episode for next week. So of course finally way we have the miscellaneous categories. So here are your unlocked potentials, your mistakes, your coyokens. Oh where do you want to begin with this one? Let's start with Zaborn. I didn't expect that one. Zaborn's like the first proper transformation in the show and that it it's something that you can control. Obviously Zaru is like they do it on purpose but it's not a control transformation while this one kind of unlocks the door for every other transformation in Dragon Ball Z. Just want to talk about it, it's funny because it egos from being handsome to ugly and powers them up and i it's funny. I don't have much else to say, I just wanted to bring that one up because I think it's really important in the grand scheme of things, it's just not that much to talk about. You know funny enough it's actually the opposite of what we were just talking about there, isn't it? Yeah, it goes from a very other as an alien, like a very pretty looking alien person to this horrific monster, which I know there's a Beauty and the Beast analogy there, but yeah, it's quite interesting to see that they flipped that completely on its head, which is cool, but I don't think we really get much of that later on. Instead, we get unlock potential, which is essentially just, trust me, bro.
00:37:21
Speaker
You're powered up. Cuz Gohan gets it, Krillin gets it. Yeah, that's really it. I'm gonna say Gohan gets it twice, cuz Gohan also has like the mystic transformation thing in the boot saga, which is the same thing, right? There are not enough words in the English language to describe how much I hate mystic, Gohan. He gets a new bit of hair. Does he though?
00:37:40
Speaker
yeah Have you thought Super Saiyan 2 was hard to distinguish? I genuinely still would remember watching, I think it was the 13th film and it's Gohan, Goku and Goten and they're fighting the big dragon creature and I remember but they power up to Super Saiyan but he powers up to Mystic. And it's the biggest disappointment ever, you're like, oh, okay, it looks the same. Because as you said, it's that ceremony, it's that showmanship as it were. Although Super Saiyan 3 is ridiculous, at least there's something
Tropes and Scaling in Transformations
00:38:14
Speaker
there. It should be ridiculous. Yeah, the only other one I can think of is, of course, Kaio-ken, which I think that is really cool. It is quite interesting that they brought it back, isn't Yeah, I think that's a really fun way of exploring this stuff with the Super Saiyan Gods is like, oh, this one thing that we did 20 years ago is actually still relevant. It's really cool. This is a very Dragon Ball thing, not a Dragon Ball Z thing, but things having a price. So like, Kaio-ken has like an absolute toll on Goku's body. everything's really clever concepts as well. So when he uses it he's only got so much time that it's actually racking his body with pain as he does it. I think that's a really cool idea. Yeah because I have to say Dragon Ball's one of those enemies where you don't really see a lot of consequence that they can just say oh I'll wish back you know so and so and then they have to make rules on top of that to say oh why aren't they just you know asking the Dragon Balls and that's the reason. Also for Kaio-ken you get the incredibly amazingly awful amazing thing in the I don't know if this is the same in the Japanese, because I've never watched it, but the dub where it's just like Kaio-ken times and then they just keep sticking numbers on the end. Brilliant. Honestly, fantastic. It starts at Kaio-ken. It's like Kaio-ken times 2, times 2.5, times 5, times 10. Unbelievable stuff. I love that. Was that not a thing that got the My Hero to Academia writers and Hot Water? They did that so early in the show. Yeah, it was like plus a million or times a million. They did that one for all times a million on like the second series.
00:39:38
Speaker
You can't come back from that. I remember just oh the backlash of that. People being like, oh well, if you could do that right now, it's like, oh no. Someone said in their head, Karen, it was just him saying it to try and hype himself up, which I thought it was really funny. See, that's the way I interpreted it, because I was like, there's no way that you could go from one to a million.
00:39:59
Speaker
in one season? Come on guys, come on. Yeah, could you imagine that? They go from the same saga, he uses Kaio-ken and then he goes to the Freezer saga and he's like, Kaio-ken times a million? Freezer would've had no chance. Oh, Freezer would be. probably it for. I mean there's hundreds of course that we haven't picked up. I wouldn't mention one, just as a one-liner, which I think is really funny. Namek. Absorption. Oh yes. I don't know if this counts as its own transformation or not, but Piccolo absorbing two characters, funny. In Dragon Ball Super they have that one Namekian that has absorbed every Namekian, horrifying. Absolutely horrific. Do you know what's actually really scary about that? He's worse than Cell. Well yeah, that too. But I can't even remember what the name of the comic was. It was like a fan comic where it was like a multiverse tournament. Have you ever heard of this one? Is it Dragon Ball or do you mean the one that's the Smash Brothers one?
00:40:50
Speaker
No, it was like a fan manga where they took different Dragon Ball universes, like what would have happened if Cell won in this universe? It was long before Super came out and canonized it, but it was like, oh, in the universe we are vegetal, Bette Superbu, so he still exists, which I thought was a really cool idea. as a for Yeah, I think it was before they again retconned and said, oh, once they take the earrings off, or it's on the time limit. But yeah, no, that was really cool. But I'm pretty sure that they had a similar thing where it was like all the Namekians just absorbed into one person. which was a really cool idea but yeah I mean fusion in general is just like a bag of worms because you've obviously got the potara I think they are here, the earrings that you put on, you've got the fusion dance which is again a very iconic one. I think that's really the only ways people can view it except for you remember the android films. They put Android 13. That's the one yeah. I don't call it to give it but give it as proper title it's not that android film.
00:41:53
Speaker
That trucker. and yeah He absorbs two floppy disks and he turns into a giant blue man. Blue man groups dead cousin. yeah Honestly, see Doctor Giroux. It would be nice to have some background, even an OVA.
00:42:09
Speaker
I would just love to see the man's thought process, because Android, and again, any Dragon Ball fans, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm sure Android 8 was, and I think he was in Dragon Ball in the original, and he was just a Frankenstein monster, and that was kind of quirky and a cool idea, but you go from that.
00:42:29
Speaker
two. In five iterations no less. Yeah, to a trucker, a short purple man who looks like the mascot of a cereal box. I can't remember the other one. He's like a big samurai dude. Yeah, with the big ponytail. Yeah. And then they transform him into the angry cousin of Tony the Tiger. And then, my fan fiction's getting weird okay. I'm enjoying you trying to explain this. But yeah, then you go from that to normal 17 and 18.
00:42:59
Speaker
He's get Arnold Schwarzenegger. Oh, of course. In the middle of that. Then two teenagers. Oh, yeah. And then 19 witches. I have to explain Android 19. No, no, I don't think for the sake of this episode, let's just keep going. He's a mime? Maybe? He's a clown mime? Or is Dragonball a bridge called him fat chow too?
00:43:20
Speaker
Like, oh I couldn't stop laughing at that. It made me so few tag and pull abridged references so far by the way. I have been holding back my power level on that after so far. Yeah other than that. Oh yeah you've got Giro as well who's Android 20. And then again Android 21 is like this attractive boo girl. Oh yeah that was in one of the games wasn't it? Yeah it was... Xenoverse? No no it was like Z the fighters or something. Oh was it in fighters? Yeah it was in fighters. So it's like... Why? but What is the process? I wanna know! explain yourself Honestly, see go back to Super Saiyan, those make so much worse.
Dragon Ball's Legacy and Influence
00:44:01
Speaker
I don't know what you'd make sale, is this to completely put a bone at all? You also have like ah a bug mat, a bug growing in his lab. Do you think he has just walked at a cockroach in his lab and he went, wait a minute? I was gonna imagine he just walked into his tank by accident, he's just like fine, you're part of the process now. It's like you're that meme floating around where it's like, I guess we're making this now. I guess I'm making bug people now. Oh well, what you gonna do?
00:44:24
Speaker
ah But to wrap up, is there any final thoughts that you have on the world of Dragon Ball Transformations? We've made a lot of jokes and a lot of jests and stuff while we've gone through this but in my mind there's few other, not just an anime but and TV in general, iconography as amazing as some of the stuff from Dragon Ball and Super Saiyan is a huge part of that. Characters like Vegeta and Goku and Trunks all in these forms are iconic parts of my childhood but I think they're just iconic designs. and I think it's a huge battle on each dragon ball and it isn't because there we've made a lot of jokes but these are top tier designs, it always will be. They are incredible. Now I can agree more because looking back to other cartoons at the time and other shows, whenever you thought of the over the top animations and things like that, you used to think of things like
00:45:10
Speaker
Sailor Moon or Pokémon, you know those kind of bombastic, oh look it's over the top, it's vibrant, it's colourful but Dragon Ball seemed to be the trailblazer for that because and I don't know why and I brought this up in the I think it was the significance of Dragon Ball episode that we did a few months back but do you remember a show called Kids Next Door? There was an episode of that and I just remember it vividly just purely because of how weird it stuck out. Because you know the blonde kid? and that He was having a fight with someone and they have this anime fight and it transforms but his hair is the size of a skyscraper.
00:45:48
Speaker
And he's like, oh no, but it falls over. All of the cartoons at the time were doing very similar things to poke fun at it, but in a way also pay homage to it, so you're completely right. Although it is a bit silly, a bit over the top, it is so, so iconic. And seeing all seriousness, there are some we've probably missed. So if you want to reach out and let us know what your favourite transformation is, then please, please, please feel free to. But once again, Martin, thank you so much for joining me in the first episode of Dragon Ball 1. Thank you for having me on. And before we wrap up, where can these absolutely amazing Pandalorians listening find your content? find more of me, the best place to find me is over on Instagram, but I am on across all social media. Just search up the name Mark McCallister and if you're local to Glasgow you might be able to come see me in a wrestling show as well, so ill always keep an eye out, I'll be around. And of course if you want to catch more episodes from ourselves as well as more episodes of Dragon Ball Month, then you can check us out on our website, chatsanami.com, as well as all good podcast apps.
00:46:51
Speaker
I also want to thank our Pandalorian Patrons, Robotic Battles hosted with Sonya, thank you so so much as always for supporting the show, and if you want early access to the podcast as well as exclusive content, bloopers behind the scenes, then you can check us out on Patreon at patreon dot.com forward slash chat tsunami. But until next time, thank you all so so much for joining, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:47:20
Speaker
Without his shirt, Martin McAllister has transformed into the legendary super-duper McAllister 4. But will the Prince of Podcasters still be able to hold his own? Or will Martin's Marvelous Muscles… really, who wrote this? Anyway, who will win? Find out in the next exciting episode of Chatsunami Z!