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Corinne's Sandman Check In
36 Plays2 years ago
Derek checks in with Corinne about her reading of Neil Gaiman's Sandman!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Episode
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi everyone, this is Derek from the editing booth. Look, so Corinne and I got most of the way through this episode before we actually realized we didn't lay out what we're actually talking about or what it is.
Sandman's Appeal and Personal Experiences
00:00:13
Speaker
So this episode we're actually going to be going over some of Sandman. See, that's my favorite comic book and it's one that Corinne is reading right now. So I figured we would do some check-ins and just talk about like where she is in it and
00:00:27
Speaker
what she likes about it. So if you haven't read Sandman, this is probably not the best way to be introduced to it. If you've watched the show, it might actually be a pretty good way to get a little bit more into the comic books because there are some differences here and there. And I will say Corinne has not watched the TV show, whereas I've watched some of the TV show and I've read all of the book.
00:00:50
Speaker
But
Exploring Sandman's Storyline
00:00:51
Speaker
yeah, so we're also, I'm going to take a clip from later in the episode where we discuss what Sandman actually is and I'm going to drop it in here. And that's it. Sorry about that and hope you enjoy the show.
00:01:05
Speaker
So Sandman is basically, it is about an eternal being who is the dream lord. There's a lot of different grounds. It's not just heaven, it's not just hell. There's a whole world where all dreams exist and are run and developed and all that stuff. They have a lot of properties to them that involve characters. Death is its own character. It's not just Lucifer himself.
00:01:33
Speaker
Desire is its own kind of world. Any basic concept essentially has its own kind of realm. So it's kind of like people are independent, but in a weird way, their feelings and their things that happen in their life are kind of controlled by these various thoughts. So really cool. And it just focuses on the Dreamlord. You can either call him Dream or Morpheus.
00:02:02
Speaker
He's got another name in one. He goes by a lot of names because he's lived forever and ever and ever. But he goes through the world kind of regaining balance after he's been held prisoner for almost
00:02:20
Speaker
70 years. So if you're gone for 70 years and you run a huge concept of life, things are obviously gonna get messed up. So a lot of the beginning is him kind of regaining some balance, claiming some items that were his. And then after that, it's kind of like, what do I do now? Okay, well, there's still things that need to get fixed and he kind of uses them. Okay, with that out of the way, enjoy the show.
00:03:02
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Erick L. Chase, and joining me again on this episode is the wonderful Corinne Levy. It's a me. And not a Mario. Okay, so this is gonna be a weird one. I have no script. I have no plan. Neither of us do. We're just gonna talk about shit.
00:03:25
Speaker
I originally was, when we sat down to do this, I was going to actually put together a set of notes to go over what we're eventually going to be covering. Yeah. And then I said, let's not do that planned thing. Let's do an unplanned thing of me just fangirling at a thing. Which I am totally on board for. And you might hear my
00:03:51
Speaker
You might hear my dog playing with a toy in the background. I'm going to try to do my best to eliminate that, but he's in a very playful mood right now. It was the moment I hit record. He decided to dig through his toy chest to dig out anything that made noise. Yeah. I like his little squeaks in the background though. It's fun. I mean, I like it because I like that he's having fun.
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, but right now we're trying to have fun.
Casual Conversations and Personal Anecdotes
00:04:19
Speaker
And that requires surround sound, silent. He does that thing where he's like, I love it and it's my new favorite thing. And then after a week, he's like, I will destroy this. Yeah. My cat's new favorite thing is a tunnel that I bought him for $4, had five below. And it's great.
00:04:39
Speaker
That's very similar, like Austin got, we have two tunnels and one of them I think came from IKEA and it was like five, six dollars and it was the easiest thing to just, you just throw it on the floor, instant fun for the next three years. That's fun. And then I got him a fish that has catnip in it.
00:05:03
Speaker
And so he was playing with Mr. Fish today. It was a good time. Very good time. We have a banana for Havoc. That is his favorite toy. And he will wrap himself around it like a koala. And that he will just lay on the floor with it. Oh, that's so good. I love that. OK, so before we get too far into anything, I guess I should ask, what's your bright spot?
00:05:31
Speaker
Um, oh gosh, the fact that I got to finish the thing that we're talking about today. I had to finish book one of Sandman, which was
00:05:42
Speaker
very great, which we'll get into this whole episode is pretty much like me explaining my bright spot. But I'm trying to think of what else I love getting my cat new toys. So that's another thing. I love to spoil this little baby boy so much. He's such a precious little baby. And Mondays are always like
00:06:04
Speaker
meet my and his time together. That wasn't grammatically correct at all. This is our day together. So it's a little just like mother and son day and it's very good. We love it. So yeah, good times. Good times all around. I realized like right before we started recording there was a there were a few things
00:06:26
Speaker
that were like running through my head and I guess they kind of work as a bright spot for me. Yeah, I do share. And it's just kind of, it starts from a, well, it sounds, it's gonna sound negative to start off with, but it led me to a
00:06:48
Speaker
It led me to something that is a little bit more bright. And that's just, I was watching, this was like a week or two ago, I was watching YouTube. Cause I watch a lot of YouTube. I love YouTube. And I found myself just being so annoyed because almost everything that like I pulled up, people were being incredibly negative about just whatever.
00:07:15
Speaker
You know, a new Sonic the Hedgehog fan game is coming out. Let's tear it apart. There's like, you know, this thing's coming out. I remember like when Thor Love and Thunder came out, people were talking about how much they hated it. And I'm like, okay, you may not like it, but like, maybe it's just not the movie for you. There's a lot of it that I liked. There's a lot of it I didn't like. But overall, I thought it was fine. Overall, it's just a movie.
00:07:44
Speaker
Right. And so like in seeing all of this and talking to other people and really like, and actually talking to you and thinking about where we're going to be coming at stuff, especially coming up. Yeah.
00:08:02
Speaker
with some of what we have planned, I really wanted to focus on the good in things. Absolutely. I ask you what your bright spot is, and I've made a point before about trying to focus on the good that is out there because there's a lot of negativity that weighs us all down.
Finding Positivity in Media
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah. It's good to sort of re-up on that every so often and be like, oh yeah, I am trying to focus on the good in things. Like I like to like things. Even stuff that I'm not a big fan of, there's something in it I'm sure that I like, you know? Oh, for sure. Having that realization and feeling like
00:08:49
Speaker
giving myself a little bit of leeway to look at things and be like, it's not that serious. It feels like a weight off of my shoulders, even though I wasn't actually putting any pressure on myself for anything. I don't know how to explain it other than that. No, I think it's funny because it's kind of one of those things where it's like things that people arbitrarily like to hate on in terms of
00:09:19
Speaker
media, I guess. Like, um, I'm gonna bring it, I always bring it back to the Joel Schumacher Batman, but I'm bringing it back again. Because that is the thing that people love to hate on. And like, I think for like a little bit, I was just like, Oh, I guess these movies are bad. But then I was like, But why? Why are we so attracted to them? Why are we so attracted, like, talking about, even if it is like negative, because it's like,
00:09:48
Speaker
If you keep coming back to it, there has to be a thing that you're attracted to in it. And like for me, I found out easily, I was like, it's the colors. I love the colors and the camp. Like, and yes, there is definitely some like, we just watched Batman forever.
00:10:04
Speaker
like recently like we've rewatched it and there's definitely some like parts that make me kind of like cringe a little bit of like oh I don't like Nicole Kidman what are you doing but then there's other scenes where I'm like this is so fun I'm having the best
Enjoying Campy and Absurd Entertainment
00:10:20
Speaker
time and like
00:10:22
Speaker
Wait, is that the one where Chris O'Donnell does the laundry, but he's doing it? Yes, he does the laundry and he punches it dry. It's so good. It's so funny.
00:10:37
Speaker
And he's like 30 years old, but he's supposed to be like a college freshman or something. And I'm like, I love this movie. But it's like, you know, it's stuff like that where it's like, people are like, Oh my God, it's so corny. It's like, yeah, it's supposed to be like, enjoy it for how it is. Like you can cringe about it later. There's a lot of, I love camp. Camp is so much fun.
00:11:03
Speaker
And like, you know, obviously there's different levels to which you can play with that and like how appropriate it is to whatever. Absolutely. But any, like the campier something is usually the more fun I have with it. Yeah. Cause you're like, it takes the edge off of like feeling like you have to take it seriously. And I think a lot of people forget that like not everything is meant to be like taken seriously and like,
00:11:31
Speaker
you know, in like, not ironically, not to be like, in depthly, like research, like some things are just meant to be fun and enjoy them and like, talk about how much you love them. In depth if you want to. Even the things that are like, just dumb entertainment. There's still a lot that goes into that, like there's
00:11:52
Speaker
preparing something to be mindlessly just consumed. There's still a lot of prep work into that. I had watched an episode about Albert Kamis. He was like an absurdist, basically, because he was just like, nothing matters. Like it all just happens and like all that stuff.
00:12:18
Speaker
But then people are like, but what's the meaning of it? It's like, well, there is no meaning. So I think to an extent, I sometimes am a bit of an absurdist with what I like to enjoy. I like to enjoy some things that don't make sense or like
00:12:35
Speaker
You know, like there's a, I feel like I kind of like a blend of things where like it makes a little bit like things can be connected. And like, it's fun to have some deep meanings, but sometimes I also just like when nothing fucking matters that it's just like, it's a whole big old explosion of weirdness. I like a lot of that. That actually, so, um, I have, I've gone through different, I guess levels of dealing with depression and anxiety over my big adolescence to adulthood.
00:13:05
Speaker
all sprinkled throughout and a few of the times what really like worked for me during all of that is realizing that things don't matter.
The Dreamlike World of Sandman
00:13:24
Speaker
There's a level of nihilism that you can sort of have that I think helps with understanding who you are and where you are in things. So I'm a big Buffy and Angel fan. And there is like toward the end of Angel, there is a point where the philosophy is really driven home. And it's sort of like if nothing really matters,
00:13:53
Speaker
you know, if there's no grand scheme, if there is no heaven or hell, or if there's only hell, and what you do doesn't matter so much, then all that matters are the things that you do, you know? So if there's no reward at the end of it, if you're just doing a good thing because you want to do a good thing, then that's a good thing. I don't know a way to boil that down any simpler, make more sense, but it makes sense in my brain.
00:14:22
Speaker
That's all that matters. I think it made sense. I will kind of going off of that mix of absurd get somewhat connected. I think that's why I like Sandman. So like after book one, like because it's kind of what it is. It's just like you have this insane like Neil Gaiman just created the most insane like dream worlds or realm, whatever. And like
00:14:52
Speaker
He, it is absolutely absurd. Yet somehow, I'm just like, yeah, this is feasible. Like, this is absolutely 100%. I'm so about it. Like, let's do it. Like, I think the first issue
00:15:11
Speaker
really does kind of set that scene because at first you're just like what the hell is going on and then after like five pages you're like you finally get onto this like weird funky rhythm and it's just like oh okay so like this is just supposed to be bizarre and like I love it I was super into it um
00:15:33
Speaker
And I think, yeah, sorry, go ahead. What was your, uh, like your first introduction? Like, how did you come to Sandman?
00:15:44
Speaker
How did I come to, well, you had told me about sand. Shout out to Derek, everybody. So you had told me about it, and honestly, I was like, yeah, I'll get to it. But typically, I am a person, when people tell me to read things, I push it very far back. Like, I'll keep it in the back of my mind, but it pushed it very far back. I'm like, I'll get to it. And then I saw, it was like,
00:16:13
Speaker
free comic book day happened. And then boyfriend and I went to a different bookstore after four of us had hung out. We had all met up for this comic book day. I went to book some million. It was a great day. I had a hoof and a half. I have all of my cat sketches from those artists. It was a great time.
00:16:37
Speaker
We went to Books a Million afterwards. So I was like, I need more books. And I had found this cover of Sandman. And because this is an audio only medium, I will explain the cover.
00:16:55
Speaker
It's basically the most spooky man you've ever seen. He looks like he's out of like, he looks like a mix of like an emo David Bowie and labyrinths. And like, it's great. I love that style. And he's surrounded by spooky cats.
00:17:16
Speaker
which gave me very much like a good like Halloween kind of like four line vibe. And I was like, I need to have this book. Well, and then I found out months in like, I was halfway through this book and I had told a coworker, I was like, yeah, I'm reading Sandman.
00:17:35
Speaker
And he was like, oh yeah, like the guy who wrote Coraline.
Neil Gaiman's Storytelling Style
00:17:38
Speaker
And I was like, what are you talking about? I for the longest time thought Coraline was written by a woman. It's not. It was written by Neil. Shout out to Neil. I don't know if you know this, but so when Neil Gaiman wrote Sandman stories, he separated them into what he considered male and female stories.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I think it kind of does that when he writes just in general, like this is a male dominated story or a female dominated story. And I don't know how that really matters in terms of storytelling. Well, it's interesting. No, it's interesting you say that though, because there is literally a an issue in here. I cannot remember what it's called. I think it's like a story only told once or something like that. And these two men, a grandfather and
00:18:32
Speaker
his grandson, they go out into the middle of the desert and the whole intro to it is being like, oh, some stories are only totally once in a lifetime. And some stories are told millions of times to children all over the world. Some stories are specifically told by women, to women. It's about dreams first love that gets rejected. It's called Tales in the Sand.
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's what it is. I love that you said it as soon as I found the page. I love it. Um, yeah. And so like, I mean, he definitely does just say that outright that he's like, you know, some stories are meant for only certain ears set in certain ways in particular styles, which I thought was pretty cool.
00:19:24
Speaker
I don't know if I fully agree with that, because I am a person who likes to hear all different stories from all different kinds of people to try and understand them. Perhaps that's me thinking about it too hard, because I still have a delightful time with the story that was told man to man. I find it really cool, Neil can just, it's almost like he is just like a professional mythology writer. It's really cool.
00:19:54
Speaker
He recently did like a Norse mythology sort of retold. He wrote American Gods too. Yeah. So I was actually going to mention that my favorite book and my favorite comic book are both written by Neil Gaiman. And I think
00:20:14
Speaker
I don't think, like he's not the best author I have ever read. He's not my favorite author, but he just happens to have written two of my favorite things. Yeah, that's fair. And that's American Gods and Sandman. And I think they very much go together. Yeah, I think what I really like, because it's like, it is very like, again, it feels very like mythology to me, which is a thing that I already like. I'm reading like Song of Achilles right now.
00:20:44
Speaker
And I've already read Circe or Circe, whatever people have, however people want to pronounce it. So I love stuff like that. And I like how he writes these like eternal people. That's like a huge thing that I really think. Because I feel like a lot of times when you look at Greek mythology and sometimes like you look at kind of like Christian stories and things like that.
00:21:09
Speaker
the eternal people, like gods or goddesses or whatever, they're all very petty and they all put a lot of feeling into what they're choosing. I'm reading Song of Achilles right now, so Helen has just been stolen from Menelaus. I was trying to pull the name and I couldn't. And all the gods are picking sides and it's like,
00:21:38
Speaker
you know, because so-and-so is like on this team, like this person's picking another person. But with Sandman, it's very much just like, I'm here and this is my job. I will do my job until my job no longer exists. And I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but I have to do this because this is my job. And I just think that that neutrality was so
00:22:07
Speaker
refreshing because it made me like them even more.
Personification and Mythological Influences
00:22:12
Speaker
Typically, the character death especially is very just like, I'm here to do my job. I clock in, I clock out, and me clocking out is just when time stops and there's nothing else to die.
00:22:27
Speaker
And it's a good thing you say that, because I feel my reading of Sandman and Death, which- Well, because you've read more than I have. Yeah. But- Once you get at least close to the ending of Sandman, I have the Death Collection. Some of it is stuff from Sandman. Some of it is she had her own series. Yeah. Short first.
00:22:54
Speaker
My reading of her is she's someone who cares very deeply. And with Morpheus, the Sandman, I feel he is someone who cares very deeply, but he puts his job, like his role above everything else. And she does too, but she's
00:23:16
Speaker
I guess more giving, like she allows herself to feel these things, whereas I feel like he tries to hide how much he feels. It just doesn't know how to feel. He's an awkward person. And I love that. He should be. It's great. I think it's fantastic. But I don't know, I think it's like
00:23:42
Speaker
Maybe it's just like a different feeling. Cause again, a lot of times you see very like emotion forward gods and goddesses and all this stuff. I love how they do their because they might be very strong and they might be very passionate about their jobs. Like they clearly are like dream. There's a heck of a lot.
00:24:05
Speaker
about the dream kingdom, making sure that people can all sleep easier how they're supposed to. I like how much he cares about the balance of things. And I feel like you can just really tell that death is very passionate about.
00:24:23
Speaker
part in life. And I think that's really cool. But again, there's no like, there's no weird alliances, people just get like, I get why you're doing this. Like, because it's your job, because this is your whole existence, your whole point of being a thing. I just think that's really, again, just really refreshing. Um, I think the only time you really see that kind of pettiness of like, and like, revenge-y kind of stuff is from desire.
00:24:52
Speaker
who I just want to see more of. But I think it's cool that that makes sense because that's what desire is. I like that they took these very broad concepts and personified them.
00:25:11
Speaker
because I feel like that's where, again, you're Greek mythology. I'm going to go back to that because that's what I'm reading right now. A lot of them are fueled by that desire, so it's cool to see it kind of personified in the 80s. It's fun. The further you get into Sandman,
00:25:35
Speaker
And I'm trying to think of the right way to word this so that I'm not telling you anything. It is... Neil Gaiman definitely is aware of what he has created and how different and similar it is to Greek mythology.
00:26:05
Speaker
Oh, I think you can tell that from the first book. I mean, like, again, because the way he writes and the way like plot lines happen. He includes one of the muses towards the end of this book.
00:26:22
Speaker
Calliope. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Calliope. That was a really good story. That was really cool. Yeah. So, yeah. No, I think you're going to have to present it because it's like all these like eternal beings have these weird vague relationships to each other. Like, you know, you do have a whole set siblings.
00:26:43
Speaker
that are eternal and then you have these kind of like they have some like they have Cain and Abel oh my god I have to talk about Cain and Abel but like I I know they have like the nods like it's kind of like a better I liked supernatural a lot and they brought a lot of Christian into it yeah but this I feel like was a more fun way of doing
00:27:09
Speaker
Um, I don't think they're comparable things, but if I had to compare, I think this, I liked this a little more, um, because I felt like they just, they had some more complexity I liked.
00:27:24
Speaker
Um, I got to talk about Cain and Alux. Holy crap. It's in like the second issue. Also, this is going to be the most chaotic podcast episode we probably have. I'm letting you know now, I've gotten so many tangents. I keep thinking of things where I'm like, I want to ask this, but, um, I'm letting you go. Cause I'm following, I'm following along with what you're saying. It might be a little confusing. I mean, hopefully no one that's listening to this.
00:27:53
Speaker
has not read Sandman, or at the very least, seen the show. Okay, yeah. If you haven't read, I keep writing there's a shout out to, if you have not read Sandman,
00:28:03
Speaker
Here's a belated synopsis of at least book one, and I will be able to tell it at least okay because I just read it and I'm gonna try and not spoil it for you. Kind of hard to spoil. I should cut this and put it at the front of the episode. Yeah, that would probably be a good idea, but are we really gonna do that? I don't know, I don't edit these. So Sandman.
00:28:24
Speaker
is basically it is about an eternal being who is the Dream Lord. There's a lot of different grounds. It's not just heaven. It's not just hell. There's a whole world where all dreams exist and are run and developed and all that stuff. They have a lot of properties to them that involve characters. Death is its own character. It's not just Lucifer himself. It's like
00:28:50
Speaker
Desire is its own kind of world. Any basic concept essentially has its own kind of realm. So it's kind of like people are independent, but in a weird way, their feelings and their things that happen in their life are kind of controlled by these various thoughts. So really cool. And it just focuses on the Dreamlord. You can either call him Dream or Morpheus.
00:29:18
Speaker
He's got another name in one. He goes by a lot of names because he's lived forever and ever and ever. But he goes through the world kind of regaining balance after he's been held prisoner for almost
00:29:37
Speaker
70 years. So if you're gone for 70 years and you run a huge concept of life, things are obviously going to get messed up. So a lot of the beginning is him kind of regaining some balance, claiming some items that were his. And then after that, it's kind of like, what do I do now? Okay, well, there's still things that need to get fixed. And he kind of
00:30:02
Speaker
I think that explained it okay. But yeah, it ties a lot to like, kind of all different mythologies. You have kind of a Greek reference every once in a while with like one of the muses, which we either just mentioned or will mention, because I don't know if we're actually going to edit this. You do get some Christian references, because there is like, you know, you meet Lucifer, and like Beelzebub.
00:30:30
Speaker
fun times, you meet pain-enabled, you meet a lot of different characters throughout these different issues. It's very cool.
00:30:38
Speaker
Um, also because he's eternal, you get to see different timelines. It's not always just focused in the eighties. Sometimes you have to go back in time and see like a cool little, there was a one shot issue that was really cool about a man in the Renaissance who was like, I could just not die. Like, I'm just going to choose not to die.
00:31:01
Speaker
It's one of my favorite characters. It's so good. I love that issue. But basically Sandman's just like, all right, you won't be touched by death. I'll meet you in 100 years at this spot, see how it goes. And they talk every 100 years and like, such a good, such a good issue. Love it a lot.
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, you go through, it is kind of all one connected story, but I like that there is also just moments where it's like, here's an issue just about a little character deep dive. You get to little know, know a little more about like, who is the Sandman or like, who is a person that has been touched in their life by him. I think that's really cool. I just really like, I'm gonna now go back to Cain and Abel, cause I have to talk about it or else I will forget.
00:31:52
Speaker
I'm a very chaotic podcast host who didn't take notes. I just have this book in front of me and I love it. Don't be mad. I have notes pulled up. So as we go through, there are some things that I was going to mention, but we can get to Cain and Abel because it kind of ties into some of what I was going to
00:32:14
Speaker
Yeah. Say to you. Cool. They're like some of the first two people that you meet once Dream has kind of broken out of his like imprisonment to kind of just see where the world's at. He goes to talk to them and they are the most interesting two brothers in the world. Obviously, like everybody knows if you ever read anything vaguely like a Bible who can enable art,
00:32:44
Speaker
Cain kills Abel, first murder. What a time. I never went to church, but I know it, so I'm just gonna assume a lot of other people know it. And usually, I feel like a lot of people are just like, oh, this is some gruesome biblical story, but in Sandman, they are just also eternal beings that are just running a little part of the universe, essentially. Just kind of all these weird little
00:33:14
Speaker
happenings. They're like, we run the stories of that. And I think that's really cool.
Sandman's Adaptation and DC Connections
00:33:19
Speaker
They kind of start off as this very like slapstick duo where it's just like,
00:33:25
Speaker
I came, please don't kill me again. That would really suck. And he's just like, stop it. I'm gonna kill you again. And like, at first you're like, Oh, haha, this is silly. But then like, pages will go on. And then Abel is eventually like alone at one point. And he had just been given like a pet gargoyle.
00:33:46
Speaker
And he's just like Goldie. Yeah, Goldie. But he names him secretly Irving because he wanted it to be. Oh, and he made me cry because he was just like once upon a time they were like he like basically tells Irving slash Goldie a story of and it's very clearly him just wanting to have a good relationship with his brother. And like he just wants to be happy and
00:34:14
Speaker
you would never see that in the Bible. And I was just like, oh, I'm so glad that like this person has more feelings and isn't just like the person who got killed. And I feel like a lot of like background characters to huge stories and like mythical culture get that. And I think that's really
00:34:37
Speaker
I also think just a lot of background DC characters get more depth from this, and I really like that. But you had a question. Well, okay, so there are a few things running through my mind. Sure. A quick aside, I will tell you, I've been watching the show. Oh, okay, good. Which I was excited about when they announced. Okay. I saw the first trailer.
00:35:08
Speaker
And I thought, this looks awful. And I was ready for it to be one of the worst things I've ever seen. Right. And then it came out and I watched the first episode and I was so taken aback at how well they adapted the, basically the entire first episode is the first issue of the comic book.
00:35:33
Speaker
That's great. That's cool. And they do it with a little bit more context for different things. So Neil Gaiman is part of the writing staff. He helped create the show. Yeah. So in doing so, they made a lot of changes. And it's something that I have, I've, I've texted friends about who are, who have read and some who have just watched the show where I've said it is,
00:36:00
Speaker
simultaneously one of the shows that is the most faithful to the comic book while also making so many changes. And I think each of the changes make sense. They're there
00:36:19
Speaker
not to change the story, but to make the story better. Like to give more context to things or to tell the story in a different medium in a way that makes sense for that medium. That's cool. I saw one little clip and it's in the book, it's when you first beat death and it's there like little conversation in a park.
00:36:50
Speaker
I was like, oh my God, it's so accurate. That's cool. So I might get to watching it. I'm a little nervous so far just because I don't know how far.
00:37:03
Speaker
the season goes and I bought the second book so I need to... I'm not very far into the show so I can tell you I am I think like five or six episodes in and we are still firmly within
00:37:21
Speaker
uh, preludes and nocturnes. So like he's still gathering his, uh, uh, his things. Yeah. Things that were taken from him. Um, but it's, it's interesting. And now one thing I was going to point out, um, Austin's been watching it with me.
00:37:38
Speaker
I actually, after watching the first episode, she was asleep because she had just gotten home from work or something like that. And I literally shut it off and said, I will not watch any more of this because it was so good. I have to ask her if she wants to watch it with me. Cause I don't want to get all the way through it and be like, you don't understand. It's so good. I'm going to give her the opportunity. And she has so far really liked it. That's good.
00:38:08
Speaker
the episode that introduces Cain and Abel, that also introduces the Gargoyles. They change quite a bit about some stuff, not about Cain and Abel specifically, but there is one big thing that changes and it happens like
00:38:28
Speaker
maybe 10 minutes into the episode. And it was enough, again, like 10 minutes into the episode, she was crying for like the next half of the episode. So it's quite, again, they do it really well by making these changes. They tweak it just enough to make it work for what they're doing. Now, with Cain and Abel as like what we're talking about right now,
00:38:57
Speaker
They are characters that are not exclusive to the Sandman, nor original to the Sandman series. I'm not sure how much of that you're aware of. They were in a different like little series, weren't they? Like a little harder series or something from DC? Right, so the House of Secrets and the House of Mysteries were two different things that ran through DC. And often, you know like Tales from the Crypt?
00:39:25
Speaker
how they would have people introduce things. That was kind of their role in a lot of these horror books. They're not the only characters that were taken from stuff. So there actually was a previous Sandman series starring a much more traditional superhero called the Sandman. And he wore a gas mask and ran around. It was really interesting. You know what? They'd pay homage to that in the first issue, I think.
00:39:54
Speaker
At some point during the first few issues, trying to remember exactly when, they do introduce that character. Yes. And then there's Sandman goes to hell and he meets Etrigan the Demon. That's a famous DC character. Him I remembered. I don't remember where I was listening or who I was talking to about Etrigan the Demon, but I think I was talking to my boyfriend about it.
00:40:22
Speaker
And I saw him and I was like, I know that guy. I don't know why I know. And like Constantine shows up as well. Constantine shows up before entering him. And yeah, that also was like, now I have to read Help Please. So like my list keeps adding now because I've read this. They also, towards the end,
00:40:50
Speaker
more DC references. They brought in Elemental Girl. Oh yes. Or Urena Blackwell. So good. I think that was like such a good ending to book one.
00:41:06
Speaker
Um, it has no Sandman in it at all. It's just this woman and death. And it was such like a heartbreaking piece of just like this woman, so sick of herself.
Themes of Redemption and Plot Deep Dive
00:41:24
Speaker
Hi, Oliver. Um, he might meow the heads up, but
00:41:31
Speaker
It was just such a good solo place. And I thought it was also just a really good way to end because the way that that issue ends is both like very heartbreaking, but you're also like weirdly happy for the person. And I feel like that is a lot of what the theme is here. And I liked that. I thought it was really good. So.
00:41:56
Speaker
I'm trying not to spoil it. Like I'm trying not to say what each issue is exactly, but also without being super vague. It's very difficult. Podcasting an R. It does bring a lot of kind of underrated DC characters. And I liked that a lot. Right. John Constantine maybe isn't the most underrated because he does have like a lot of books, but
00:42:25
Speaker
It's not like he's like Batman or Superman kind of deal. I don't know. So, okay. Around the time that Sandman was starting, it was pretty deep into Alan Moore's revamp of The Swamp Thing. Oh, okay. And right around the time that Hellblazer as a comic book was getting started,
00:42:53
Speaker
In fact, I think it's like issue eight of Hellblazer is where that issue of Sandman takes place. Oh, okay. It's like somewhere really close like to the beginning of Hellblazer is where that first Sandman issue takes place. Yeah, that's like the third issue. Yeah.
00:43:17
Speaker
Um, that one was really cool because it's just them trying to find like the first tool. And it's just like this poor woman just gets stuck with it. She has no idea what she's got in herself. And the shame it's like Constantine's friend, or more than friend. That's ambiguous. But
00:43:39
Speaker
But see, that's what I mean. It's like it ends and it goes sadly, but in a way like pieces brought in the end and you do again get that neutralness from Sandman. It's like, yes, it sucks that this is happening, but I'm going to make it as painless as possible because I still have to fix this and I still need my things back. That I really.
00:44:03
Speaker
So, I don't know. Okay. There is Matthew the Raven. That character is not new to Sandman either. Oh, the Raven! I love the little Raven. He was so cool. Matthew was a supporting character in the Swamp Thing series. Oh, okay.
00:44:28
Speaker
And I like him better as a raven. He's not a terrible person. He is a complicated individual in the Swamp Thing series. And I guess, spoiler for this incredibly old comic book series, but Matthew dies in Swamp Thing. And he dies while he's dreaming.
00:44:57
Speaker
so so his redemption is him living in the dream world right and it's basically and that's that's the contract that is made with uh dream is because he died dreaming he is allowed to live on as a raven uh as his personal raven yeah i think that's really neat Matthew as a raven
00:45:21
Speaker
is a much more interesting character to me because it's a person trying or a creature trying to do better in like this second chance that they're given. Oh, absolutely. I think there's kind of a lot of that second chance trying harder. And there's also just a lot of really good circle backs in this book.
00:45:47
Speaker
So like in the first issue, I might just talk about the plot a little bit so it makes sense what I'm about to say. In the first issue is the Sandman getting captured by this cult. They're trying, yeah, they're trying to kidnap death and so that they can have like all this power because they have a whole death.
00:46:11
Speaker
But instead, they accidentally get the Dream Lord and they hold on to him for, I said it earlier, but like 70 years, like a whole human lifetime essentially. And they do this in a way where it's like you get jump cuts of the pulp and kidnapping and you never see a dream until like very end, but they're trying to like talk to him and like trying to interrogate him as well.
00:46:41
Speaker
They jump to other people, just citizens in the world, just like living. You get like a soldier in World War I. You get like a man living, I think he lives in the Bahamas. You get this British woman, her name's Unity Kincaid, and it's all like them sleeping. And they all have their own, you know, one of them sleeping really sound. One of them having trouble.
00:47:09
Speaker
all the different kinds of styles, them trying to dream, not dreaming, struggling, whatever. And then once dream is captured, I mean, you don't know what's happened until later, but these people's lives get affected. Either they become like the extremist form of their sleeping mode or they can't sleep again. And you get really connected to these people.
00:47:36
Speaker
especially Unity King Kade, where it was like, you know, she's like, she's raped, she has a baby and she's asleep the whole time. She lives, like she ends up in a senior home, but she's asleep the whole time. And then finally, when the dream Lord wakes up and is, you know, not wakes up, he's released, he breaks free. All these people get back to normal. Like one of them was so affected, the man who lived in like the Bahamas, he was so affected, he became mute because he just like couldn't sleep, couldn't do anything.
00:48:07
Speaker
I'm not gonna talk anymore. And then finally when he's like brought back, he's able to speak. Unity King Kate is finally allowed to wake up and she's like, oh my God, I've missed a whole lifetime. And your heart breaks for these people. And then you don't hear about them for like 10 sessions. And then finally like they, some of them, one or two of them come back. Unity King Kate comes back and in like the coolest way.
00:48:36
Speaker
And I won't get too much into it because I don't want to spoil it, but she actually becomes very important. And she comes back in a way that it's almost like she's trying to make up for the time she lost. Like she's trying to get her own sense of redemption in a different way from Matthew the Raven.
00:49:02
Speaker
And that was very, very fun to see that get satisfied. There's also a man, I think his, oh God, I can't remember his name. I wanna say it's Greg. I wanna say it's Gregory, so bad. He's the man that hangs out. He used to be a dream and he wasn't.
00:49:26
Speaker
Oh, Fiddler's green. Fiddler's green. But his human name was like Gregory or something. Yeah, I'm trying to think of it right now. I got to find it because it's going to drive me bananas. It's crazy, but he's so good and I love him. But basically his whole thing is he gets his own second chance. He tries to make things great. Gilbert. Gilbert. Oh, my God. That's what it was. Love Gilbert.
00:49:56
Speaker
Gilbert has his own sort of like redemption thing where it's like, because like dream has been gone for 70 plus years, like a lot of people in the dream world have scattered, tried to do their own thing, whether it's good or bad, chaotic or neutral, whatever. I feel like he was one of the most neutral kind of partings, but then he does come back and like accept abilities for certain things. And he tries to redeem himself for doing that. And I think that's really great. You get a lot of that.
00:50:26
Speaker
I love that. Not people are all so bad. People are trying to do better things. OK, so I guess before I say anything, I'm kind of curious of where you are in the series, because I don't want to ruin anything. Yeah.
00:50:49
Speaker
So I kind of want to, before I say anything, I want to know about what's happening where you are in the series. All right. I'm going to just say for this point on, so this podcast makes more sense. From this point on, this is a spoiler alert for all of book ones. Yeah. It's going to be really hard to talk about this book without spoiling things. I was trying so hard. And then I was like, you know what? I can't do this anymore. I can't contain it.
The Horror of the 24-Hour Diner Issue
00:51:15
Speaker
We just need to chat about this.
00:51:18
Speaker
So at this point, Dream has gotten all of his tools back. He got them pretty early on. He got them all back because he does the whole thing with Constantine, finding his sandbag. And then he has the fight battle kind of widths with that one demon in hell for his helmet. And then
00:51:46
Speaker
He has to fight John Dee to get his Ruby back. But he ends up like breaking. Dr. Destiny. What a cool character. A great character spinning out of a very boring character because he was just a straight up super villain and not that interesting until
00:52:10
Speaker
He just goes unhinged and it's so crazy to watch because there's moments where you like really feel for him and then he just murders a woman and you're like, oh my God, he's terrified. Okay, so an interesting thing. Now, my introduction to Sandman is a little weird because I was reading comic books for a long time and I never picked up Sandman. I was very firmly within the superhero universe and just kind of wanted to stay there.
00:52:38
Speaker
And there used to be a magazine called Wizard. Wizard was a fun albeit sometimes and mostly silly magazine that just talked a lot about comic books, what was coming up. They did like little fun things and I loved it. I got Wizard
00:52:58
Speaker
every month when it came out super into it. And I remember there was a Halloween issue and they counted down their creepiest moments in comics. And one of the top hits for that was this issue of The Sandman where John Dee walks into a diner and basically holds it hostage for like an entire day. It's 24 hours and it takes you through
00:53:28
Speaker
every hour of what happens. And it starts off kind of just like mild. You get to know everyone in the diner. That's another crazy full circle, which I will get to after I talk about this freakin' diner. But it just slowly becomes more and more unhinged. And you
Comparisons with Other Media
00:53:46
Speaker
learn more about the people in the diner and how messed up their lives are, some of them, or how wholesome some of them are.
00:53:57
Speaker
And then they all just are done, like within 24 hours. And he didn't really do anything. It's just him influencing people. Like, I don't think he ever actually, I don't remember him actually putting hands on people. So like, do the thing. It's just him and it's just the Ruby and like the subtle influence that he has on these people. And it was such a crazy way to show like,
00:54:27
Speaker
power and just like, uh, it, that whole issue, I feel like could be like a nineties horror movie. Like I feel like it could have been my upon reading
00:54:43
Speaker
about this creepy moment in comics that is what made me go yeah I have to read this series and I still didn't for another year or two just because this was this was a little bit before it was so easy to buy digital comics and yeah so I actually borrowed my friend had the entire
00:55:03
Speaker
Sandman collection, I borrowed the entire thing from him and read it just nonstop. But that being said also, that specific issue of the comic book is the episode where I am in the show. Oh my God. It's so interesting. Austin kept, like we actually shut it off halfway through because we had to do something. Right. So we kind of, we're breaking a little bit of the tension.
00:55:28
Speaker
but Austin's watching this just going, what the fuck is going on? I would be so stressed. I could never pause it. I wouldn't be able to. And then I'd have to watch like the episode after to feel a little better about myself because you end that feeling so unsafe.
00:55:47
Speaker
It's crazy. And I haven't had that kind of feeling from a book or anything in a while. I did have to skip a page in Gerald's game. I had to skip a chapter, but it was because it was too gory and I was getting nauseous. It wasn't because I was like,
00:56:07
Speaker
It wasn't because I was scared. It was just because I was grossed out. And those are two very different things. I've done that with some, I don't know how to pronounce it, a Palianuk, I think is how you pronounce it. The Fight Club guy. Right. A couple of his books. I've had to skip some stuff because I'm just like, one, it's gratuitous.
00:56:24
Speaker
uh yeah and two it's just gross there it really there some like some of it that's the point but some of it it's like you're just there because like that's just you're just throwing it in there because that's kind of what you're known for at this point and like for for Gerald's game it made sense it did i just was like
00:56:46
Speaker
Okay, I get it. I'm good. I understand. I can't do it. My hands were tingling. I was like, oh no. I hated it. I recently shut off. I shut off Fear Street. I don't know if you've... I love Fear Street. Those movies are so fun. So I shut off part two. Okay, the 70s one.
00:57:12
Speaker
right it's a i shut it off because it was dark i was home alone not it wasn't like scary it was gross and not in a gory way it's where they realize that they're underneath
00:57:25
Speaker
The bathroom? The bathroom. And I was like, I don't want to watch this right now. I'm going to wait until I'm like, it's another time. I was like, this is disgusting. Oh, it doesn't end up being as gross. It doesn't. It's not like anybody like does a poo or anything. I think it was just that it was so close to like, I was watching this in the middle of the night and I was just like,
00:57:51
Speaker
I'm about to go to bed. I don't want this to be in my head right now. I don't want to think about being underneath that toilet. I love that I just said, don't worry, nobody does a poo on the toilet. That one's doing a poo. Now I've said it three times. You have gone from... He's gotten all of his tools back.
00:58:19
Speaker
He has all of his tools, and he's feeling a lot. Yes, Unity Kinkade has been, we went through, well so now I can spoil it, it's fine. You get introduced to the concept of like a vortex.
00:58:35
Speaker
This is after Dream has all of the schools and he's kind of like, enough, I don't know what my new purpose is. And Dream's just like, you have a whole kingdom to rebuild. And like, also you could have called, I was worried about you. So he has a new sense of happiness step and he's like, you're right, I have like things to do. How could I forget? And then you are introduced to Rosie.
00:59:05
Speaker
and her mom, and they're being sent to the UK by this attorney. And you find out that Rosie is Unity Kincaid's granddaughter. So she's meeting her biological granddaughter, but she's also trying to find her brother in the US. So she meets her grandmother, but her grandmother's sick. So Rosie's mom stays with Unity. She goes back to America to find her brother.
00:59:36
Speaker
who is currently in an abusive household and also being tormented by these two like dream things. It's like- Brute and glob. Brute and glob, yeah. I don't know how else to describe them other than Brute and glob. They're kind of just like, they're part of the dream world and they're very mischievous and they broke out while Dream was kidnapped.
01:00:04
Speaker
like a couple other people. So basically, Dream saves the son, like the brother. That is a whole episode that happens, or a whole issue that happens. Dream also defeats another Dream thing that broke out.
01:00:25
Speaker
The Corinthian. The Corinthian, yeah, the Corinthian. For three issues, I kept saying, yeah, his name's the coronation. And I was like, I just didn't read. Like, it's the Corinthian who's been like basically having a bunch of serial killers fall in love with him and kind of be inspired by him. So that was a whole thing.
01:00:53
Speaker
Rosie and Gilbert also somehow end up being entwined with the serial killers because they're all at the same hotel while she's trying to find her brother. So that's kind of how that happens. And then you find out that Rosie is a vortex, which is somebody that eventually can tap into everybody's dreams at once and like mess with them.
01:01:18
Speaker
So he's like, I don't want to do it, but like, I'm going to have to kill you because you are literally hurting millions and bajillions of people. And then she's like, well, this fucking sucks. And then you find out Unity Kincaid was supposed to be like the vortex. And she's like, I'll just sacrifice myself. Like.
01:01:35
Speaker
here, and then that works. And it sounds so bizarre, but I'm like, how does this make so much sense? But it's because she was supposed to be the vortex 70 years ago. If Dream hadn't been kidnapped and she was unconscious for all that time. So that all happens. That's all well and good.
01:02:01
Speaker
You go back in time a lot, so you meet the eternal man and they become friends. It's the guy from the Renaissance who doesn't die. I don't know what else happens. What's the main stuff? Think about it. Yeah, that's kind of mostly it. And then there's a couple one-off episode issue situations.
01:02:26
Speaker
So you read, I know you read Calliope, the A Dream of a Thousand Cats. Oh God, A Dream of a Thousand Cats. So good.
01:02:38
Speaker
That's another one of those like great one off ones where it's just like, you get so many more things to care about. Like, and I cared about all of these cats. And I very much, I own a cat right now too. And whenever I see him sleeping, I'm just like, I hope you get what you want. I really do. And just like learning about this one Siamese cat and her four kittens, I was, I was balling. Um,
01:03:06
Speaker
So, okay. I did the Midsummer Night's Dream. Oh, see, okay. This is a thing where for me, A Midsummer Night's Dream, I know it's not the best Shakespeare has ever written, nor does it make that much sense, but it is my favorite William Shakespeare play. And to see it as a Sandman comic and the ways that it's like just thrown into the story,
01:03:37
Speaker
Oh, I was over the moon. I loved it. And that specific issue won a World Fantasy Award. Which is very cool. I gotta say, it was not at all my favorite issue. It's fine. I was excited to see it. Well, that's good. I thought it was very cool to look at. I really like the style of it.
01:04:06
Speaker
And like they had brought Shakespeare up before, like in the, the Renaissance man one, like you do meet Shakespeare for the first time. And it is alluded that like he's made a deal with Sandman. And so because I knew Midsummer Night written was going to be happening, I was like, Oh, so this is like deal he makes or like something like that's going to be really cool to see that pay off like later. Um,
01:04:34
Speaker
And I had to, I started reading that issue and then I had to stop and I had to restart because I just like totally messed myself up. It was like weirdly hard to follow in a, in a way. Cause it's like you were, I don't know. I just wasn't like super connected Shakespeare. And then like he changed his like,
01:04:59
Speaker
there were a lot of characters that changed their faces basically. It was like, you did have men playing women. So I had, and which is great, we love that. It was just when they put on their other costumes, it was like they were drawing a whole new person. And so then I was like, well, who is, who's this guy then? And so I got really focused in on that and it really confused me. And then I was trying to figure, you're trying to figure out also like why
01:05:29
Speaker
Who is this audience? Why is this audience here seeing this play? This is all other world people and stuff. And I don't know. Have you seen or read the original, the Shakespeare and Midsummer Night's Dream? I think I have. Because here's the thing. I don't think it really matters. Isn't it the one where it's like there's like the wizard on the island with his daughter
01:05:59
Speaker
And he was, or is that a different one? A Midsummer Night's Dream is you have Titania and Oberon come to the mortal realm, basically. And they get into an argument.
01:06:14
Speaker
And Oberon, being the dick that he is, has Titania, he basically curses her to fall in love with this mortal, and then makes the mortal turn into a part donkey. A donkey. So she loves a jackass. And then it's just pure chaos until it all gets wrapped up at the end. Again, not great. Okay, so I have not... Just a lot of fun.
01:06:44
Speaker
So I have not seen a Midsummer Night's Dream. What the heck have I seen? It was like, okay. So what I thought I was supposed to be listening or watching. Oh my God, I think it was the Tempest. I think I was thinking of the Tempest the whole time. Oh no. No wonder I didn't like it. Keep that in mind because the Tempest,
01:07:14
Speaker
also comes up. Like Shakespeare is a big deal. I thought, okay, I genuinely thought that I was supposed to be reading The Tempest because that's with Prospero. Yes. And his daughter and she falls in love with the prince who will become the king and they boat crash onto the island. That's what I thought I was supposed to be reading. Okay.
01:07:42
Speaker
Okay, so I could have liked this more had I not been an idiot. The chaos that is that issue is, I think, very perfectly mirrored in the play that they're actually putting on. And I liked all the...
01:08:02
Speaker
I liked the little side comments of all the little mythical audience members. I thought that was fun, because they're so cute and so goofy. They're like, can we eat them? And it's like, no, I think this is a play. I liked that. I thought that was cute. Or they'd be like, hey, that's supposed to be me. I don't like that depiction of me. And then the other ones are like, nah, but it's accurate.
01:08:30
Speaker
So I I thought I thought it was fun when it was that but then I was like, what the heck is this supposed to be? Okay, so But that's on me. That's not that's not Neil's fault. That's my fault I'm glad that got cleared up. Oh, but then the other thing I didn't like Because part of me wanted it to end really tragically. I thought that Titanium I thought the woman
01:08:59
Speaker
Titania. Titania. I thought... I don't know. Lady Titania. I thought that she was going to take Shakespeare's son. I thought she was going to take him. And I really wanted that to happen because I thought Shakespeare was a dick. And like, I think he should pay. I feel like he hasn't really paid for his part of the deal yet. And I think the son is...
01:09:29
Speaker
going to be like the check. I think that's what it's gonna, that's what I thought it was gonna be. Maybe it will be later. I love listening to your theories. I mean, it's fun. I like to theorize. Before we continue on our voyage through what you've read. Yeah, again, so sorry, this is chaotic, but I guess it's on theme because this book is also chaotic. Sorry, not sorry.
01:09:59
Speaker
The theme that comes up quite a bit throughout the series is sort of reality as being shaped through belief. Yes. And whereas like most people view it as your dreams are shaped through like what you experienced the reality. This kind of also takes it the opposite. Yeah. That being said, do you feel Cain and Abel were real people
01:10:27
Speaker
where we're just ideas that were given life. Oh, that's so interesting. I'm asking this because I don't think the book gives a solid answer. For me personally, I have always viewed it more as they were
01:10:56
Speaker
ideas given life. And that's part of why they have the contracts that they do. Yeah,
Future Topics and Developments
01:11:07
Speaker
I think that because if at first I wanted to say I think it might have been like the Raven situation, where it was like, somehow they were given a deal when they both died. But thinking about it,
01:11:24
Speaker
I don't think that would have worked because Abel would have died first, obviously. So I think it would be very weird to have those very belated on like this very time separate contracts for them for like agreements, whatever you want it to be. So, but based off of like the things that they run, like they talk about how like they run like the penny dreadfuls and like all that stuff in the world, basically.
01:11:54
Speaker
And they essentially are like the first horror story. So like, I think they probably are like one of the, maybe not necessarily built by like the dream kingdom or anything. But I think maybe they were just kind of created by their own thing, like this really small department.
01:12:19
Speaker
by just like what, I don't know if, I don't know if there's necessarily like God in Sandman if I think about it. I think there is because there's Lucifer and they're like, he's the fallen angel, but it's like, they don't really like, they don't really explicitly say God. I will tell you. And you don't see any angels, but also if it's connected to Constantine, I promise this thought ends. Yeah, no, you're fine.
01:12:49
Speaker
I'm trying, I want to give you information without giving away too much too. I, I think I have now answered my own question that there is God in this book, just because if there is a Lucifer, like there, it only like makes sense background wise. If you're going that route for them, there to be like God and angels. We just haven't seen them yet in book one.
01:13:15
Speaker
Also though, I know enough about Constantine to know that there are angels and demons and stuff. I mean, there's very clearly demons, just from reading the first four issues of this. So we just haven't seen angels yet. Maybe I'll see them in book two. I don't know, I haven't read it yet.
01:13:39
Speaker
Hopefully, I'll read it soon and then we'll have a more constructed second part to whatever this is. But yeah, I think that answered my question. Yeah, so I will say...
01:13:55
Speaker
Part of my question about Cain and Abel also comes up, and I feel like if you read the book, there is enough textual evidence for and against my feelings on it, which are that Cain and Abel are
01:14:12
Speaker
stories. Sort of the same with like Lucifer. Lucifer is a creature, a creature that exists, but doesn't necessarily mean that Lucifer didn't start out as a story. Or that Lucifer's
01:14:30
Speaker
History wasn't changed by say the changing beliefs in Christianity over the course of the last 2,000 years And there is like a whole like you are right there is a whole major theme of it being like Who runs this is it people themselves or is it these like? Eternal beings because like literally they're like there's issues called like the dollhouse and
01:14:56
Speaker
And it's, it focuses on like Rosie and all that stuff. I noticed it. I know literature to some extent of symbolism. So when you, when you break down, I definitely noticed that when you break down the Sandman, uh, comments into story arcs. Um, I have the smaller collections. You have the bigger ones.
01:15:19
Speaker
The second volume is called The Doll's House, and it's what collects the story of- Of Rosie and Unity. Yeah, and Rosie, yeah. So I'm kind of basing my understanding of where you are based on my shorter collections. Yeah, so I've made it past The Doll's House.
01:15:42
Speaker
And it sounds like you made it through what would be considered dream country, which is more of those short stories, like the dream of thousand cats. Yeah, that's kind of when it gets a little confusing to describe where I am, because it was a lot of kind of one shotty moments with the cats. You know, it's cool that there's still some sort of full circle. Like there is still some like Shakespeare comes back and he was, you know, alluded to in
01:16:11
Speaker
the cat, which is cool. It does seem like the hobgoblin thing will come back. Oh, and then it just immediately goes into- Were you talking about Puck from the little- Yeah, it does seem like Puck will come back at some point because he does just kind of disappear into the darkness. There's the Richard Maddock thing with Caliope. Caliope.
01:16:44
Speaker
That makes the most sense. I've been saying it weird No, it sounds like it should that should be how it is because the way I've been reading it in my head sounds very silly. Um So yeah, that was a that was a one-shot story So, I guess I've read like what you have as like three pieces and
01:17:08
Speaker
So that would mean if I'm understanding where you are, the next story you're going to start is called Season of Mists. And a lot of some of what you have
01:17:25
Speaker
brought up comes back. Yay! I love when that happens. Especially in terms of ideas and maybe a character or two. So I'm interested to see, especially once you read that, your thoughts on everything. Yeah. Oh, that's going to be chaotic. But yeah, I'm excited. I'm guessing that's the start of your second book. That'll be the start of my second book.
01:17:54
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense. So Seasons of Mists or Season of Mists is a great story. It's one. It's probably my second favorite of the Sandman series. And it was the guy, the person who lent me the original series when I was first reading it through, it was his favorite, at least at the time that he gave it to me, which is interesting because my favorite
01:18:21
Speaker
is the following one, and it's called A Game of You. And it follows, it doesn't necessarily follow up on anything from Season of Mists. It just sort of picks up another plot thread and says, hey, let's follow this for a while. And it is, so A Game of You is one of the stories that Neil Gaiman has said that he wrote as a female-led story. Oh, cool.
01:18:49
Speaker
It is like he would, he would say that this story was, was, was female. And I can definitely see it. And I really want your thoughts on a game of you when, when you get there, because I will have more structured thoughts when that happens. There is so much.
01:19:12
Speaker
in Season of Mists and in A Game of You, that I think just those two alone, you could spend months talking about, especially in terms of content. Because as you're reading through it, you should keep in mind that these were published in 1990, 1991, and 1992. So you're just out of the 80s. And some of what's in there
01:19:39
Speaker
I think was not being talked about or published about in mainstream, mainstream anything. And I think that lends a lot of, so when The Sandman was published originally, it was a weird comic book, not just by like what was on the page, but because it was
01:20:04
Speaker
Oh, one of the first comic books to establish a huge female readership. And it also like it does bring up like LGBTQ, like very briefly, but it is very cool. In that diner issue is I think her name is like June or something, Julie.
01:20:29
Speaker
I think it's I think it's Julie Julie and she does come back she gets mentioned later on because Which is another cool thing it I like how he Judy. Yes. I like how he loosely connects Like parts like one to part two to part three. I like that. I think that's cool. Um Because it does kind of show
01:20:57
Speaker
that like all these lives do mean something. But it's also, you can see how small the connection is in such a big world that this like guy thing has to deal with. Because Judy gets mentioned again by Rosie at like the very end of the dollhouse being just like, tried to call my friend.
01:21:24
Speaker
back because she was really worried that she had broken up with her girlfriend and she was like really sad about it but I like never got like answered or whatever. You get to learn a lot about Judy in the diner issue. I thought that that was really cool that you have this cool complex woman who's also gay and you're also showing her having friends that care about her.
01:21:48
Speaker
And I thought that that was really cool, especially if it was from the early 90s. I thought it was in the late 80s. But I just thought that was really cool and very ahead of its time. Where you're reading is the late 80s. Yes, OK. Season of Mists and A Game of You, they were published over the next three years in the 90s to 92.
01:22:18
Speaker
And I will leave it at that because I'm worried about saying too much. That's fair. Again, this is my favorite comic book. A Game of You is my favorite story in my favorite comic book.
01:22:39
Speaker
So we're coming up on stuff that I can talk forever about. Yeah, I'm excited to get more into it. I like how this is broken up where it's like him getting back on his feet to then just like doing a big job and then doing a bunch of small jobs. It's cool. I think it really like shows you the world that's being built in a very like
01:23:07
Speaker
tied up in a nice, neat, chaotic bow. I like it fun. It's very good. It's interesting to come off of recording three episodes on Batman and such a wild, fun ride of bonkers storytelling to something that I think is just as bonkers, but in a very different way. Yeah, I feel like it makes more sense.
01:23:37
Speaker
This one has like a different, it has like a whimsical weird to it. Where the other one has kind of just a psychotic weird to it. Like that one, yeah. I think the Batman one is how you can have like your dark and fun storytelling while still heavily leaning into camp. And you get a lot of that in Batman. Whereas I feel like the Sandman comic is a lot less camp.
01:24:07
Speaker
but still just all of the weirdness. Yeah, it's kind of just like weird gothic. Yeah. And I like that. I am a very like sunshine appearing of a human being, but I like my gothic be like weird stuff. So this is like this is a good shoe that fits and I'm going to keep putting it on.
01:24:33
Speaker
I'm very excited to see your thoughts as you get further into the series. So we're definitely gonna have to do another one where we talk about. Okay. I will make sure to take notes that time. I guess when you finish the second book, that'll be a good time to check back in. I'm assuming it'll be Season of Mists, A Game of You, and maybe... Ooh, what comes after A Game of You?
Announcement: Deep Dive into the Clone Saga
01:24:59
Speaker
I don't even remember.
01:25:01
Speaker
No clue. And maybe fables and reflections. Probably not because that one's really long. Yeah. So it might just be season of mists in a game of you. So I'm definitely looking forward to talking to you at least about those two because there's so much that we can go over just within those two stories. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me about this.
01:25:27
Speaker
Thanks for letting me go on the most psychotic rambling of my lifetime. I had a lot of fun. I mean, that's good. I did too. There are fewer things that I enjoy more in life than talking to people I care about about things that they care about. And especially if it's something I care about too. I had such a great time. Because I literally, my brain
01:25:54
Speaker
was just like, I'll be, I would be reading something and be like, I gotta put a post-it note on this. So I gotta be able to talk about it later. And then I didn't have any post-it notes. And I was just like, I will remember because of how much I love this thing. And then it all turned into like, I, it was just like, I was making a sand castle. So I just kept putting a bunch of sand in this bucket. That is my brain.
01:26:17
Speaker
And then I just instead of like packing the sand in, I just immediately dumped it out and was like, here's all my thoughts. That's how this felt. It was great. And then I got hot cocoa in the middle and it was very nice. So that sounds good. All in all, great record. I think we'll come back with a
01:26:41
Speaker
I was going to say more structured, but actually, probably not. We're going to come back with a brief overview of a four year long story that most people would know, especially anyone who's slightly interested in comics has probably heard of the clone saga, Spider-Man's second clone saga, actually, and the one that lasted for far too long and is widely considered one of the worst
01:27:11
Speaker
missteps in comic book history, you and I are going to do a deep dive into- We're gonna find out why we like it. We're gonna find a way to like it and it's gonna, we're gonna be like, here are the things that are super cooked about this, but then here's three reasons why I like it.
01:27:29
Speaker
Well, I've started my notes on this, and I can tell you, I've already found a couple of things that I was like, oh, hey, I didn't realize this is where this came from. So we're definitely going to have a little bit of fun with that. And I think that's going to be.
01:27:44
Speaker
just as chaotic and weird because holy shit there's no way to fucking there's no way to do a script or anything for this it's just gonna be notes on a bad story that we're gonna dive into over the course of like 48 episodes
01:28:07
Speaker
So I guess you can find more information, including, well, not really any sources for today's episode, because it's just a chat between the two of us. Just my brain in my heart. Go out and buy Sandman. I read the comic book. Watch the show. It's a good show, but read the comic book. I personally think it's a better comic book, even though I very much enjoy the show. But you can find more information about us and some of the things that we're going to be talking about.
01:28:33
Speaker
at comically pedantic.com you can also follow us on twitter and instagram by searching at pedantic cast and at derrick l chase on both platforms new episodes will be coming out most sundays on itunes stitch your google podcast spotify and at comically pedantic.com if you have any comments or questions um especially if they relate to the clone saga because
01:28:52
Speaker
Holy shit, we're going to have so much time to talk about the Clone Saga. You can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypedantic at gmail.com. And please indicate if you like your name or question red on the air. We will be back soon with a deep dive into the Clone Saga, the culture of comics, and another update on Sandman at some point. But until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.