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Always On Penetration Testing – a conversation with Jacob O’Brien of Hakware.com
10 Plays3 days ago
A single point in time penetration test is just that, but the hackers are working 24/7
Jacob O’Brien is the founder and CEO of Hakware.com a provider of AI-Powered Cybersecurity & Penetration testing.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds Jacob discusses with host Michael Millward how many businesses underestimate the internet security risks that they face, and how they fail to prepare for the inevitability of an attack and how they will recover from that attack.
They discuss how
- Every device with an internet connection is at risk of being attacked
- Scammers are using AI to structure their attacks
- The weak link in your security is often human
- Zero Trust contributes to good security
- The code used to build your network impacts your security
- Good hosting helps secure your network
- Always on penetration testing protects your network
- The story of Michael Culce and Hollywood films like War Gameshave contributed to the myths around hacking and hackers.
Discover more about Jacob and Michael at Abeceder.co.uk
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Independent Minds' and guest Jacob O'Brien
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. The all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:00:24
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:43
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida. As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
00:00:56
Speaker
Today I'm going to be learning about internet security and penetration testing from Jacob O'Brien from hackware.com. Jacob is based in South Africa, a place I am yet to visit.
00:01:10
Speaker
When I do visit, I will be making my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club because at the Ultimate Travel Club I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and so many other travel related purchases.
00:01:26
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
Importance of Cybersecurity and Jacob's Journey
00:01:35
Speaker
Now that I've paid some bills, It is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:46
Speaker
Hello, Jacob. Hi, Michael. Thank you so much for having me on. do appreciate you being available. Talk about such an important topic. But could we please start by you giving us a little bit of a history about Jacob O'Brien and how you ended up doing what you do today? ah Perfect. Thanks. So, yeah, um I'm the the founder and and CEO of Hackway.
00:02:06
Speaker
We essentially created a product that enables you to kind of sleep safely at night, knowing that your environment will be looked at and and made sure that that there's no holes. I got into cybersecurity at a fairly young age, and then from there, joined a few three-letter agencies and helped them with some some trafficking sites. and And that's essentially how I i dove headfirst into cybersecurity.
00:02:28
Speaker
Like said, for almost 20 years later, and it's it's still It's still my kind of day job. And essentially kind of my main focus in cybersecurity is defending businesses before they get, before attack ever happens.
00:02:40
Speaker
And then when it does, making sure they're ready to respond to it and and recover
Understanding Cyber Threats: Motivations and Legalities
00:02:44
Speaker
from it safely. but want to pick up you up on one of the things that you said there is that you're saying that your aim and focus is on helping organizations to make sure that they're secure before they're attacked.
00:03:00
Speaker
And that made me think, are lots of organizations, big and small, assuming that they're not going to be attacked until they are attacked? So that is generally an issue. And and one of the the main kind of focus points for that would be, you know I'm too small, no one's going to focus on me. And you could not be kind of more wrong. Any organization from from small to high or like large, if if you've got data that you're storing and it's worth something to you, it's worth something to someone else. And it's it's a fairly wide range, but businesses big to small, they're they're all getting targeted at this point in time.
00:03:36
Speaker
So when businesses are being targeted and you say that if the data is worth something to you, it's worth something to someone else as well. I've also heard that there are hackers who aren't doing this necessarily for any sort of gain. They're doing it for the kudos of being able to tell other hackers what they've done and how they did it so So that is obviously a trophy system would would always be part of the hacker community. and It's something that was kind of born out of and it's it's something that always stay there.
00:04:06
Speaker
And the the kind of main thing there is um if if that is the event that that has occurred and and there's no damage, you you had a good day when it when it comes to a bad situation.
00:04:17
Speaker
and that The worst part comes into play when it's a malicious organization that is obviously looking at something or trying to find anything from you. But again, it's it's a massive part the hacker community, seeing if you can kind of find the gap in that organization.
00:04:32
Speaker
um the The biggest problem is obviously that it is illegal everywhere in the world. Wow. Unless obviously requested by the organization. There's another thing that you said as well, which sort of jumped out at me when you said it, and that was when an
The Evolving Threat Landscape and 'Zero Trust' Approach
00:04:46
Speaker
attack happens. You didn't say if an attack happens, and it made me think, should we be assuming, working on the basis that the attack is going to happen?
00:04:58
Speaker
No matter what it is that we do, there will always be something that enables a hacker to get through. Yes. um So, I mean, nothing in this world is unhackable and it doesn't matter if you, the Pentagon um or or a mom and pop shop on on the side of the road, if you've got something that connects to the internet, it is hackable. They'll find a way. So living life you know in a kind of perspective, and it's called zero trust in the industry, is take on the approach that you've already been hacked. And once that happens, what that what else damage can occur?
00:05:28
Speaker
And the the reason why that's such a prevalent thing in the industry currently is because it's not if, it is when. It is going to happen at some point in time. And you need to kind of make sure that you're ready for that. Wow. You're taking me back to my teenage years now and when you mentioned the Pentagon and a film which I think was called War Games.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yes. Where a teenager hacks into the the Pentagon's computers. And the next thing he knows, that this his house is surrounded
00:05:55
Speaker
Definitely hacker cycle. building the call circle hey Yeah. The key thing is that if you have something that is connected to the internet, if you have data that is of value to you, it is of value to someone else.
00:06:10
Speaker
And if it's connected to the internet, at some point or another, you have to believe someone is going to try and get it from you. 100% correct. Yes. Wow. wow Well, we'll try and work work out from you how we can sleep a little bit easier. So how is the actual threat landscape evolving? what are the sort of themes and trends and that are happening in in the cyber world?
00:06:35
Speaker
The threat landscape today is faster, more automated and far more targeted than it was ever was years ago. ai is now being used on both sides. Attackers can use it to craft off very convincing phishing attacks. and And that's kind of you just something I'd like to pause on there. So most people have heard of those types of phishing attacks where, you know, it's ah a royal prince from some area. And if you pay him some money, he's going to give you millions and millions of pounds. It was almost like a joke we had gotten to.
00:07:01
Speaker
the The problem that you've got now, specifically with things like ChatGPT that can craft an email very nasty for you, make it sound professional, and it is becoming more more difficult to actually figure out whether it is a phishing attack or if it's just a mail that's really meant to to get to you. That that is ah a core part of of what's going to change.
00:07:18
Speaker
you dramatically over the next few years. From there, if you look at things like deepfake videos, it is only becoming better. So where you might get an email where it looks like it came from you know someone you know, in this case, you might get a voice note on WhatsApp and it uses a voice of someone that you know, asking you, saying that they're trouble. One of the more serious situations is where there's a phone call to your parents in the middle of the night, at two o'clock in the morning, And it's the daughter frantically saying that I'm in jail. I need to pay the money right now. Otherwise I'm in big trouble.
00:07:49
Speaker
And if you're a parent and you can hear your child's voice, you're going to react on that immediately. So um you the the AI side of things is is changing the landscape completely, but not in all the ways that you think it would normally So things like deep faith videos or voice automation, as well as them kind of increasing the the sophistication of a phishing attack, it's it's becoming a scary place if you if you don't know what
Risks of Digital Footprints and Social Engineering
00:08:12
Speaker
to look out for. For you to receive a telephone call from a computer that sounds like a real person that you know, like your daughter, your son, whoever, the hacker, first of all, needs to get that voice. So that means they must have to to hack into your WhatsApp or your... They need to hack into whatever phone system you're using. Not necessarily.
00:08:32
Speaker
Not necessarily. So we we're living in the age of of TikToks and and YouTube and where where everyone's essentially making content. and So... you know that That is one fairly easy way to to get that with about 30 to 60 seconds of you talking about anything would be enough to create a version of your voice. Obviously, the more your hours or content they have, the easier that becomes. And then from there, if you send voice notes to friends and their the device gets compromised, it will also have a a you a copy of your voice that that they can use to train models with.
00:09:05
Speaker
So it's um it's not just yourself that you need to kind of focus on. It becomes broad based. Anyone that you've sent a voice note to, any video that you've made online, all of that would essentially create enough content for them to replicate your voice.
00:09:18
Speaker
Wow. I should point out then now, after having produced well over 100 hours of podcasts and webinars and all sorts of various different things, that if you receive a telephone call from me at the early hours of the morning saying that I've been arrested, leave me there. Wait until after breakfast before you do anything about it. So it's um at least at at least you know where I am, but it's unlikely it' will be it's unlikely that it's true. It will be one of these computer generated things that's used something from a file that's publicly available on the on the internet. in fair
00:09:58
Speaker
That is amazing and really is something that we should all think about in terms of how we share information with our friends, with our family and...
00:10:09
Speaker
really make it as private as possible. That that generally becomes a thing. And i mean, it's it's difficult. So problem is I i had a conversation with a lady that does food safety audits and you know it was difficult going somewhere for lunch with her because you know she would be judging every single aspect of it and be worried about everything because she knows that industry. And the same thing kind of occurs from cybersecurity side.
00:10:30
Speaker
ah The more you think about it, the more paranoid you almost become and the more you look out for different things. And, you know, in in general, um I wouldn't necessarily recommend everyone kind of living a a digitally free life, but definitely take notes of where you're leaving information, because as you kind of traverse the digital beautiful landscape or the internet, you're going to leave pieces of yourself behind. And and that's generally with technologies like these that where we can really become dangerous.
00:10:57
Speaker
Yes. It's like, that's the sort of person to person type situation. It's the same for an organization, an employer, a large organization. It's the same sort of things, isn't it? If you have a thousand people,
00:11:10
Speaker
you have a thousand different ways in which a hacker can get into your computer system. 100% yes. And and and that's the the thing. Generally within businesses from like ah a B2B perspective, one of the most common attacks that that we used currently would be they'll they'll watch LinkedIn to see if a new employee has started at the organization.
00:11:31
Speaker
You know generally have some level of contact information on the internet, whether that they've shared CVs or they've got a phone phone number on on LinkedIn. They would get a WhatsApp message stating, hey, I'm so excited if for you to start the company. My name is so-and-so, the CEO of the company. I'm looking forward to meeting you later today.
00:11:47
Speaker
I'm just in a meeting. I need you to go buy this voucher and send me the code, and I'll just rebu reimburse you for it when I'm done with these calls. I'll see you at the office later. And the amount of people that you you're new with the organization, the CEO is talking to you directly or your your new manager that you haven't met. So you you end up purchasing that that voucher. And eventually when you do meet the CEO, he goes, don't know what you're talking about. Those types of facts are also kind of very prevalent in a business setting as well.
00:12:13
Speaker
I can totally understand the sort of situation that somebody might find them in and believing that they're getting an instruction from a senior manager to do something. So you really want to do it.
00:12:24
Speaker
You want to do as you were told. But it is really one of those situations where you have to then double check because it's like yeah somebody says that they are a senior manager you don't know that they are you only know what is you can see online you need to make the verification call through to where their office actually is i think is is the best way i mean there's a slightly cruel side to this is that ah you know a fool and their money is is easily separated
00:12:57
Speaker
that's thing Or rather, a a fool and their money are easily separated. Or if something seems too good to be true, it generally is. But for some reason, in those types of situations, our common sense seems to abandon us. And we just do what we are told by somebody who says that they are someone else, but we have no way of proving it. See, the thing is, they they do prey on the emotional aspect of it. And and the first thing that you'll notice in all those situations, it's always an emergency. It's always right now decision. So if someone is is phoning you frantic or telling you something in in a very urgent way, you as a person, you already become you know a little on edge. OK, something's really urgent. What i need to do?
00:13:39
Speaker
um And then from there, because it's so urgent, they expect you to act immediately. And then when you act immediately, you don't have that kind of um you thought in the back of ear head going, oh, wait, let me think about this differently, because you're in a panic. So you immediately react to what is happening right now instead of thinking about it. And it's the very human thing to do. And that's specifically why are these criminals would use those type of tactics to get you to do something that you need you to.
00:14:02
Speaker
Yes. You need to be a psychologist to be ah a hacker then, as well as a technical expert. nice but For social engineering, it really makes a big difference if if you've got some psychological background. Yes.
00:14:15
Speaker
yeah So that's the bad side of this.
Ethical vs. Malicious Hacking Tools and Recruitment
00:14:19
Speaker
you know the The ways in which the internet and can be used for less than nice purposes. But they're using the same type of technology that the good guys are using as well, aren't they?
00:14:32
Speaker
I'm 100% correct. um we We tend to all share the same tools and and see who can use them better. Obviously, from some government institutions, there will be custom-made toolkits to to be able to combat it. But for for the most part, we we all get to share the same tools and and you kind of play the same game.
00:14:49
Speaker
Part of the myth, I suppose, is that there is a hacker who breaks into some system. They are tracked down by the authorities and they go through the criminal system and are so prosecuted and sentenced to time in prison or whatever. But instead of spending time in prison, they can get offered a job by one of the big <unk>s internet security organizations or by a government department of some country because They want to take those person's skills and knowledge that they've gained and turn them from a bad guy into a good guy and become become an ethical hacker.
00:15:28
Speaker
ah Is there any truth in those rumors? The nice thing about a rumor, it needs to have some level of truth. and and you know there There are situations where, a very rare occasion where that might happen, but a lot of that would generally come from someone called Kevin Mitnick.
00:15:43
Speaker
And for a very long time, he was on the run. he was the, um you know, kind of most famous hacker, if you put it that way. Also a few movies made about him and a substantial amount of books.
00:15:53
Speaker
ah But he essentially, after his jail time, ended up ah creating a cybersecurity organization to assist businesses to stop you have people doing what he did to them. um So, you know,
00:16:05
Speaker
That does kind of add to that myth. And I mean, if you are absolutely brilliant and in in what you've done, there's a very small chance that that someone might hire you, maybe not while serving time, but maybe afterwards, but no chance then that you're going to, you as the average cybersecurity guy, you're not going to get that opportunity. you're going to be in jail and then struggle to get a job afterwards.
00:16:26
Speaker
So if you're interested in being a hacker, you're better off being an ethical hacker and earning an honest day's pay. Yes, 100%. That would definitely be the route I would suggest. Is Hackware an ethical hacking company?
Ethical Hacking Practices and AI in Cybersecurity
00:16:40
Speaker
So, yes. What we do in Hackware would be considered illegal in some instances, but because we are doing it from an ethical perspective, it is allowed. But you're basically testing company systems to make sure that they are as secure as they can be on the day that you test them.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yes, and but that's where the the product of Hackware changes the game a little bit because it will do about 80% of what we would do in a day's pen test or like a three or four week pen test and it'll do it daily. So it'll do the majority of the areas that you need to focus on on a daily basis. So it's not ah a point in time um that you'd have with only doing a traditional pen test. It'll give you a daily view of those same type of things and and force you to fix them on the go. So as soon as you've done something that you kind of might put you in danger again, it'll flag that for you to say, Hey, you haven't fixed this yet. Go and fix it. So when you talk about a pen test, that's an abbreviation for a penetration test. And that's where an ethical hacking organization like hackware.com is trying to penetrate the security
00:17:45
Speaker
of the website to make sure that it is secure as possible. And most organizations, I know ours for definite, would have a penetration test done at least once a year, if not twice. What you're saying that Hackware does, is does that penetration test on an ongoing continuous basis? Yes, and we are not saying get rid of the pen test, I definitely still recommend them like I said once a year, but the the problem with that, even though it is very deep, is it only happens that one time a year. So you have got ah a snapshot of a point in time of how secure you were and yeah know that that kind of to an extent on a day to day basis would kind of prove that news because your system, your environment, big or small, will keep changing on a daily basis and the more people you got working for you, the more things can change. so
00:18:35
Speaker
almost keeping a lid on it, it's making sure that on a day-to-day basis, everything gets reviewed. And and we we generally like to use it the kind of review like an example of a small software company. So everything from the code that that is written on to the server that it's hosted on, um to the backups of that server happening, to the firewall on that server, everything surrounding it needs to be taken into consideration. And you need to do that on daily basis to make sure you really have it under control.
00:19:01
Speaker
You're not going to tell me how that works though, are you? ah um I can give you the the high level overview of it. But with with that is is we essentially trained different AI models to focus on specific disciplines.
00:19:15
Speaker
So something that gets used in the industry a lot is called SQL injection, which is what you use to see if you can receive more information back and instead of getting the the output that you expected from a specific control or so you can bypass that control.
00:19:31
Speaker
So with that being something that's that's very often used, the the model would go in detail, understand it, it would try different ways on your environment on a daily basis. So it's not just the same thing over and over again, it's unique different ways. And and that part, I won't necessarily go into too much detail in. No, no, I can appreciate that. But essentially, whilst you're doing this to try and make people's websites safe and web services safe, at the same time, there is someone somewhere else in the world who's, like you say, is using the same technology to break in for less ethical reasons.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yes. and And the thing is, and I did this, I showed this at ah at a talk I did a while back at Microsoft's Season of AI. And within about 15 minutes, I was able to use ChatGPT to create my own little um you know version of of what we do at Hackware. Obviously not the same level, but effective enough, um yeah know we we took a town in the UK and we we found every business around um our point where we were and we got, you know,
00:20:33
Speaker
a yes no verification would this company be be vulnerable to that yes or no so with using something that you can you know create in 15 minutes i've already taken the pool of um your possible victims from a couple million to know a thousand and then from there i can again automate the process to see well how feasible is it so with another 15 to half an hour year amount of work uh you've now kind of boiled it down to your top hundred and then from there you know you're that's kind of covered your salary for the next year because your you'll hit each and every one of those um and it's it's so quick and so effective and that becomes the problem you you need to be in a position where you could use ai to fight ai in that sense that's an interesting idea using ai to fight ai and making sure that i suppose your ai is constantly it's like one step ahead of the bad guys
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, and that's where the where the problem comes and in into play. So what we've actually done is um with with all our partners globally, you know that you sell Hackware, if their pentest team can find something in a pentest that our models cannot,
00:21:41
Speaker
We obviously give them a big reward and a T-shirt and and a trophy and and everything else. But also we reuse that knowledge and we use something called reinforcement learning to update our model to almost think in a similar way to get to that same point.
00:21:56
Speaker
So that's ah a nice way for us to have you know a mass amount of people ah producing information for our models to get better and better at what they do. Yeah. See, I'm thinking that a lot of the malicious hackers are using existing AI.
Targeting Less Secure Organizations and Spear Phishing Techniques
00:22:11
Speaker
And like you say, with that example that you gave of fine tuning down to where the most likely victims are going to be, They're using existing AI or technology to attack the most vulnerable organizations.
00:22:27
Speaker
The most secure organizations will only be attacked by the more high-end hack unethical hackers because they are secure. Those bigger organizations are secure. And so you need something more innovative and in order to hack into them.
00:22:46
Speaker
Am I right to think that the vast majority of malicious hackers are using existing technology to to attack organizations that haven't put in place the right type of security measures? 100%. I mean, that that has been occurring um before everyone had AI in their pockets. So specifically from back in the day, there's a term called the script kitty.
00:23:09
Speaker
And that could essentially be a a person with limited knowledge of cybersecurity that would just use a tool that they found on the internet or wherever and use that to to hack into an environment. So there's a a famous example of, um I can't remember, he was still in school, like between 16 to 18 years old, he was called Mafia Boy. And he downloaded something called an iron cannon and just used it.
00:23:31
Speaker
So reason why they called him Mafia Boy is he was watching the the Mafia movies when the FBI burst into his room And essentially what it was doing was with bringing down companies like Google, Yahoo, um like big giants, because he didn't think the tool was really going to work. He was just trying them out. So a teenager in his bedroom, just playing around, brought some of the biggest technology organizations to their knees while watching a movie. So script kiddies are dangerous.
00:23:56
Speaker
Probably didn't realize what he was doing. He didn't. So, because he he switched it on, thought it didn't work. And then, you know, got bored looking at it and just went to watch movies. So, you know, it is a danger, but again,
00:24:07
Speaker
yeah Obviously, organizations have learned from that. It's it's a couple of years past. So it's still, if you've got nothing in place, you're in trouble. I live in South Africa, where every house that that's very well secured has got electric fencing, beams, cameras, gates, um you know, the the whole group. So your idea there is to make sure that they'll kind of target the next guy's house because um you know I can just jump over the wall and get into the house where you know this guy's got all these things. It's it's just much effort.
00:24:35
Speaker
and And you do get that point. um So you're you're going to have your your spray and pray group um that would really affect your SME businesses. your Your big businesses, their kind of whole problem becomes Someone would target them, you know, not for just a quick route. It would be a very in-depth focused attack. It wouldn't be ah um just a quick route. So even with the phishing attacks, the terminology would change. So what you would find in those organizations would be something called a spear phishing attack, which means it's very focused, very kind of tailored towards that person.
00:25:07
Speaker
and And one of those attacks that that do get that that get used kind of often would be if you just Google someone with the information on the Internet, you can see that they're on Facebook, they've got two kids, they're going to this school. And if you go to the school, you can see that's the teacher for for that grade.
00:25:22
Speaker
So you'd send them an email, like, for example, the CTO or the CEO. And you'd say, hey, um Bobby just did this amazing thing at school. And I don't normally send you emails, but I just had to send you this picture.
00:25:34
Speaker
So any parent would pretty much without thinking click on it because it was using names. It was from the school. um you know The email came from a account that kind of looks like it's from the school. So the speech phishing attacks are are very focused and very difficult to kind of differentiate from from real and malicious.
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah. so yeah Yeah. It makes you think.
Conclusion and Farewell to Jacob O'Brien
00:25:55
Speaker
It makes you relieved to know that there are people like yourself who understand this and are actually putting in place the the obstacles to make it more difficult for the unethical hackers. But this's this I've learned so much, Jacob. I really have enjoyed our conversation and learned an awful lot. Thank you very much for helping me make such an interesting episode of The Independent Minds.
00:26:17
Speaker
Thank you for having me. been a pleasure. i am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind Jacob O'Brien from hackware.com.
00:26:33
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. I must thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Jacob, If you're a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Jacob, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is when great guests and great hosts are matched and great podcasts are hatched.
00:26:56
Speaker
The Zencaster system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, and have experienced technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:27:12
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:27:28
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. I am sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Jacob and I have enjoyed making it.
00:27:38
Speaker
please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. to make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:27:57
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.