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The Benefits of a Happy Workforce– a conversation with Lindsay Tsang PhD
15 Plays18 days ago
Why leaders should focus on making their team members happy
Lindsay Tsang is a Toronto based organizational Psychologist, and the founder of Reset Barrie and Happy Hires. He is also the author of Live Free: Re-Write Your Story
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds Lindsay explains to host Michael Millward the reasons why leaders should put more focus on making their team members happy, and the tools he has developed to help make that easier.
Gary and Michael discuss
- How a worker’s experience of work is determined by the quality of leadership
- What being happy means
- What happens when workers are not happy
- The language associate with teams
- Self-Sustaining Teams and the Self-Sustaining Team Index
- Action learning team development learning experiences
- The evolution from manager to leader to owner
This is the podcast for anyone who wants to build and lead a more effective and efficient team.
Discover more about Lindsay and Michael at Abeceder.co.uk
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Host's Background
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. The all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
00:00:17
Speaker
Visit Zencastr.com. All the details are in the description. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm your host Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abyssaida.
Guest Introduction and Toronto Connection
00:00:44
Speaker
Today I'm going to be learning about happiness and being happy at work with executive coach Lindsay Sang, who is the founder of Happy Hires.
00:00:55
Speaker
Lindsay is based in Toronto, Canada, a place I have enjoyed visiting in both seasons. That's a little bit of an in Toronto joke. I would like to visit Toronto again. When I do, I will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club. because at the Ultimate Travel Club I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and so many other travel related purchases.
00:01:21
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
Episode Goal and Light-hearted Exchange
00:01:30
Speaker
Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds. That will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:41
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Lindsay. Hello, Michael. How are you doing? I'm well.
00:01:53
Speaker
Good, good. Which season is it in Toronto at the moment? I guess it's entering a construction season. Construction season. And what is the other season in Toronto? Winter.
00:02:06
Speaker
The winters are very cold and the summers are gloriously hot and sunny, if I remember correctly. Yes. Yeah. We don't have much of a spring and fall. They are lovely though.
00:02:16
Speaker
They are. It's a great city.
Lindsay's Journey and Leadership Focus
00:02:18
Speaker
I love it. Please, could we start, Lindsay, by you're just giving us a little bit of a description of how you ended up doing what you're doing today and what does Happy Hires do? I am a business owner myself, and i'm very interested in leadership, especially when I was back in nonprofit as well. I was i love the concepts because you you really had to be good at it since you didn't have employees, right? You had people who volunteered.
00:02:42
Speaker
When I got into my therapy practice, I knew I wanted to work with individuals first and then families and eventually organizations. And that's what led me to a PhD in organizational psychology. How have you applied the PhD? My research areas are on leadership, motivation and positive psychology.
00:03:01
Speaker
That's usually what the mix I bring towards my my clients is that I want to help them to develop their management teams so that they could run the day to day and allows the business owners to step back and kind of do the things they love to do instead.
00:03:17
Speaker
And that's not always leisure time, is it? It can be what they want to do is build their business. So it's being able to work on your business rather than in your business. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. most Most of the people that I work with are very passionate for their businesses. So that is not their goal really to to stop working.
00:03:36
Speaker
It's to get rid of the headaches of firefighting the day to day. You didn't go into business to deal with the day-to-day things. You went in to create something and to build it and see it grow and take on a life by itself that doesn't involve you, I
Happy Hires Program and Company Name Meaning
00:03:50
Speaker
suppose. That's that's how I feel about Abyssinia.
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly what this is for. So what does a company called Happy Hires do? Right now, my signature program is really a ah leadership development program that your your management team, so your kind of like your headquarters, your people who do in charge of sales and operations and administration can come together and take the course where I would go in and coach them for about 90 day sprints on different foundations. So there's five major foundations that I am helping teams to develop in their leadership skills on how they execute,
00:04:31
Speaker
on how they engage employees, on whether they have the the right vision that they're all aligned on and in mission and values, and also whether they are practicing innovation and whether they are practicing sustainability in terms of the pace of the company.
00:04:49
Speaker
And finally, whether they are having ownership of their roles and building more leaders in their pipeline. So those are the five major foundations. And it just depends. First, we have to access assess them and find out how well they are doing and which part is a lacking. And that's what really typically where we start off.
00:05:09
Speaker
So why did you call it Happy Hires? I'm a pretty positive person myself. You know, in my therapy practice, a lot of my clients actually are business owners who are burnt out from their jobs. Or I have clients who are, you know, they're off work and sick leave. And it's because of terrible and toxic leadership and that they are suffering from that.
00:05:32
Speaker
Really, I'm thinking about a world where there are better leaders. And because of that, there are better workers as well. And it's really when you look at it from that perspective, you know, we spend so much of our time at work and it really ought to be a place where we find pleasure in doing it.
Leadership Impact on Employee Happiness
00:05:50
Speaker
um And that's that lands so much on the type of leadership you have. So the experience that someone has at work is, well, the majority of influences on the quality of the experience that they have at work will be determined by the quality of the leadership that they experience.
00:06:13
Speaker
Absolutely. I think it's one of the main pillars of what makes people happy at work or not is it's their bosses. So people, here's a, you know, a phrase I've heard is that people don't leave their jobs, they leave their bosses.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yes, that that was an expression that that came to mind as you were saying, the things about leadership and the experience that people have at work. It's not just an expression, though. There is evidence to support the logic behind it, is that people will leave a job because of their manager, the management style, the fact that they're not getting the career progression.
00:06:47
Speaker
that their manager isn't looking for, their leader isn't looking for career progression. So there's no career progression for the people underneath them either. The quality of your leader determines your level of happiness at work.
00:07:00
Speaker
What is happiness? What's the definition that you use? Yeah, so that's a really big question, obviously, because you can get into philosophy and everything else. um Yeah, I'm thinking that for each individual person, yeah everybody thinks, well, happiness is very personal. But also I'm thinking that there must be some sort of yeah definition of happiness. And, you know, we'll come on to a moment to discuss the ways in which you assess people's levels of happiness and engagement and interest in their work. But what is what is happiness? Why is it so important?
00:07:38
Speaker
I think there's there's basically two sides of it that is mostly discussed. And one of them is the you know is your feelings, right? You have good feelings or bad feelings. So a lack of bad feelings and ah an abundance of good feelings could be considered happiness, subjective well-being. The other one would be more about satisfaction. So it's more about not just how good you feel, but how good you think your life is.
00:08:01
Speaker
yeah A good example, I've heard of this recently actually, is a lot of people, if you ask them to to map out their subjective happiness day to day in their parenting, they might not rate it very high.
00:08:16
Speaker
But if you ask them what gives them the greatest joy in their life, they might say their children. yes And it's because of the purpose and the meaning that they find behind it, ah much more so than just than just the subjective happiness they get from it.
00:08:27
Speaker
Yeah, your children are your future, and your children are not going to make the same mistakes that you made. but and That's debatable.
00:08:39
Speaker
I could laugh about that one for hours. When I started work, a few weeks in, I was sitting at a desk working away, and somebody said to me, Michael, you don't look very happy.
00:08:50
Speaker
said, Why? <unk> what You look as if you're a bit bored with that, as if you're not having an awful lot of fun. and I was like, um I don't quite know what to what to say type of thing. Then he said, you know Michael, you just got to remember that if it was fun, it wouldn't be work. and It's something that has stuck with me for my whole career. I've always tried to think, actually, it is supposed to be fun. I am supposed to enjoy it just because it's called work. I should enjoy it.
00:09:20
Speaker
I'm entitled to enjoy it. And I should find some sort of element of satisfaction from it. And I should feel I'm entitled to it. And it's entitled is not a word that I use very often because I think most things need to be earned in life rather than being entitled. But when I'm at work, I do think I should be working and doing something that makes me happy. Yeah, back to the whole idea of It's subjective happiness versus, you know, what you think is what happiness ought to be. i mean, you can take a look from that lens is that sometimes work can be difficult. Yes. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't give me satisfaction.
00:09:59
Speaker
Right. In
Self-Sustaining Team Index (SSTI)
00:10:00
Speaker
fact, if we look at motivation theory, when tasks are challenging, it actually creates more satisfaction. or or more performance than if they are too easy.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yes. If your brain isn't being exercised or if you're not doing a physical job, almost to the limit of your physical capabilities, it can become boring because you're not it's quite clear that you're not actually using all of your capabilities to their fullest extent.
00:10:29
Speaker
It is multifaceted. Yes. But i I totally agree with you, though, because it is to the best interest of managers and leaders to make sure that you are enjoying your job.
00:10:42
Speaker
Because when you are, you will also statistically correlate with job performance and better bottom line. yes So it's it's of utmost importance for for leaders to care about that.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yes. Not so sure that providing bowls of fruit makes people happy or even the masseurs or the pool tables and and things don't necessarily make people happy. that um There is something that is a lot less investment, but probably the most difficult investment is simply time in people to um help them find what makes them happy. At work.
00:11:18
Speaker
There's always that question as well. Why do people do things as as jobs that they're not actually happy doing? And the easy answer to it, I suppose, is, well, they have bills to pay. But you're spending your waking hours doing something you don't enjoy.
00:11:34
Speaker
With my logical brain, it's like, why would you do that? Yeah. Why would you do something that you don't enjoy for the yeah five days a week? I don't understand the logic of it, but I'm sure there are people who would say, well, we don't have much option. What are the things that a manager, a leader can do to reverse that situation? And from what you were saying a few minutes ago, I think that the starting point is probably to work out the sort the size of the issue that they're dealing with.
00:12:07
Speaker
And that's where your self-sustaining team index comes in, I think. Absolutely. If you can measure something first, then that would give you a much better indication of what's working and what's not working.
00:12:21
Speaker
How does the self-sustaining team index work? Yeah, the self self-sustaining team index is a 25-item scale from disagree to agree kind of scale.
00:12:32
Speaker
And so each ah five of those is going to be assessing one of the foundations that we already spoke of earlier. Basically, we're looking looking at assessing their confidence in their work, their connection with people, the meaning they find from work the the growth and also their ownership.
00:12:52
Speaker
And these are all attached to job satisfaction. These are all attached to ah job engagement. um So there's really quite a lot of psychology being put into this assessment.
00:13:06
Speaker
um But what's what's neat though is that I really tried to make it as practical as possible. So that you can you can actually look at the items and say, oh we're lacking this area. Well, that's very obvious what I need to do to increase it.
00:13:22
Speaker
How have organizations used it? Is it something that they can use by themselves or do they need you to actually implement it? They can absolutely do it by themselves. um I usually offer it as a, you can call it a lead magnet, right? It's a way for someone to even know about the world that I'm building out.
00:13:39
Speaker
But, you know, once they complete it, they can, you know, I've had someone tell me, they're like, wow, this is giving me a lot of clarity on what I need to do. right It's given the language and a framework and and also to to kind of take a look at where is the weakest.
00:13:53
Speaker
The way that I help, though, is we just debrief it together. You know, there's kind of a coaching aspect to that. And then I have a program that's built around
Language's Role in Organizational Culture
00:14:01
Speaker
it. So now you can pick, let's say you're you're really missing on the envision piece, which is about vision, mission values. while i have ah I have a 90-day sprint program that your whole team can come together Take the program every other week.
00:14:17
Speaker
it' be It'll be six lessons. And they would have self-directed workshops that they would have to work out and come up with tangible outcomes for for that week. So it's almost like action learning. Yes, action learning. you're Learning by doing. Learning by doing. They'll learn something and then they had to do something and implement it. I would act as a facilitator and coach to that team or to the to the owner, depending on what they choose.
00:14:40
Speaker
One of the things that you mentioned and the feedback that you've received is that somebody said that it it had given them the language that they needed. What does that mean in terms when they say this program, SSTI, the Self-Sustaining Team Index, had given them the language that they needed to be able to structure the things that they needed to do? What's what's the importance of language?
00:15:04
Speaker
Oh, it's so important. you know it's just i think I mean, what do you think? so you know that's what That's what school is for, right? It's to define things. um Because there's things that we can probably by intuition kind of know already.
00:15:19
Speaker
um But we need someone to do the work to define something and then to test that thing and to know if it's something that you can work on. When you come, so I love, you know, one of my clients, he he was an amazing leader already, right? But he wanted to step into that role more.
00:15:36
Speaker
um And but he said, I was just lost. i didn't know where begin. And he's like, that's where your expertise comes in, because you have the frameworks and the definitions. And now I have something I can kind of anchor myself on when I'm thinking about these things.
00:15:51
Speaker
Now, when you have your whole team coming together and taking the same training and the same actions, now everyone speaks the same language with each other. And that's what makes it so powerful. Yes.
00:16:02
Speaker
I was thinking like the founding of the United States when I do not know who it was, but it might have been Webster. I'm sure if I'm wrong, somebody can correct me, but somebody made the decision or or the suggestion that if you're going to build a nation, then the nation needs a language of its own, which is why in the United States, words like center are spelled differently to the English, UK spelling of center, the humor, favorite behavior, all these sorts things is part of creating a nation. We have our own language. And I suppose where you've just the reason why that story comes to mind is because what you're talking about in your description there is that you can use language to get everyone on the same page
00:16:53
Speaker
looking at things in the same sort of way, interpreting what they see in the same way and agreeing on the course of action that they need to take fits better into into its place, so to speak, because you're using not the right language, but the same language. There's a ah common understanding of what the words you are using will mean in the context of the discussion that you're having.
00:17:20
Speaker
100%. And actually very similar story. If you look at the the first emperor of China, of course, I'm Chinese, so that's why I know this. um But one of the first things he did, because it was it was a lot of different countries, it was nations and languages and tongues, you know, so they they the first thing they did was make everyone in all the different dialects write and read the same language.
00:17:44
Speaker
Yes. and And that's probably one of the strongest things they did to unite the country. Yes. Because, and again, in in the UK, when the railways came in, put we that's when we got a standard time because the the need for a standard time for the railways to run. but that's another thing that binds nations or groups of people together to be operating and in the same way. We're talking about not standardization of things, I suppose, although it is, but we're talking about creating things, the infrastructure to create a culture within an organization enables that organization with the right leadership to build a stronger organization.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah. and And, you know, the, ah ah for For all the lessons that I have in the leadership program, and the the the point of the workshops is so that you can contextualize it as a team for your business, because your business is going to be different than other businesses. Yes.
00:18:41
Speaker
Right. So it's using common language, not rigidly, but as a way to to
Visionary Entrepreneurship and Leadership Evolution
00:18:48
Speaker
contextualize. There is a a subtle difference, but an important difference. and i totally get it.
00:18:54
Speaker
The part of this self-sustaining team index in it, I'm sort of thinking there must be in the name, the self-sustaining team index.
00:19:05
Speaker
Well, it conjures up this idea that the team can sustain itself. So it doesn't necessarily need a leader as such, or a manager, it becomes something that can operate independently of leadership.
00:19:19
Speaker
h Yeah, it's, you know, it's really about creating a culture where everyone takes ownership. ah That's the last, that's the very last foundations in powering, empowering, right. But when you create the structure and the culture,
00:19:35
Speaker
then you're starting to create something that goes beyond yourself. That is why I call it the self-sustaining team, because it's about the owners that wants to have a team that runs the show that they can do the things they love the most. Right.
00:19:46
Speaker
But what people like to do the most isn't necessarily the thing that they are. Well, but isn't necessarily the thing that the organization needs or the team needs them to do.
00:20:02
Speaker
It's like the value that this person can add is doing something that isn't necessarily the thing that they most want to do because it's something that don't enjoy all that much.
00:20:15
Speaker
Right. mean, personality can come into it, right? It kind of depends on your, your style. Um, I mean, I find a lot of people who are entrepreneurs who start their own businesses. They are visionaries.
00:20:29
Speaker
Uh, they're really good at relationships. They're really good at working really hard. um And and so they get bored of the day to day things that they they know has to happen.
00:20:40
Speaker
um But yeah, no I'm just thinking of a friend of mine who I just talked with this week and he's like, yeah, I want to hire this position so i don't have to look at it anymore. i I want to do my podcast. I want to talk with with big with big investors or I want to talk with big clients and and and work on those relationships.
00:21:00
Speaker
um And that frees them, you know, when they have when they have really great teams and and workers in place who um not only are they self-sustaining, but they they also, you know, they take leadership, they they take ownership of it, they they make innovation happen. So it's growing. It's not even just It's not even just sustaining the day to day is actually improving on the day to day on their own.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah. I got what you mean. Listening to there is talking about ownership and leadership. And I'm thinking, thinking of two different things here. Are the words ownership and leadership interchangeable?
00:21:35
Speaker
Because if you're a leader, then you're taking ownership of something and you remove leadership from a job title and make it a role or. Is what we're talking about the natural evolution? So we started off with managers, everybody wants to be a manager. And then we've seen a progression towards the word leader yeah being used. And in my mind is ah a manager manages a process, a leader leads people. Is the next stage of that evolution a move towards ownership so that every person is owning what they do, being responsible for what they do, not saying, well, my leader told me to do it. Well, leader doesn't always get it right. If you're the person who knows how to do that best is the person who does it.
00:22:24
Speaker
And are we moving, you think, more towards... gone from management to leadership to then ownership as a as a key factor within the way in which organizations will be run in the future?
00:22:41
Speaker
hu That's a tough question. I mean, I think ideally, yes. um Because the reason why I'm hesitating is because I think some people actually enjoy following.
00:22:54
Speaker
and and And that's okay, right? That's just the way they're built and we need followers too. Yes, I think in every situation, well, not everyone is wants to be a leader in every situation. yeah And ah school systems around the world seem to be dedicated to knocking out the initiative and leadership from people and turning them into people who follow and follow instructions. But you know what? Okay, so I'll put it this way, right? few few of clients might come to mind who one of their biggest frustration is they're like, when I hire someone, I want them to add value. Right?
00:23:29
Speaker
like i don't I don't want them to just follow my instructions. I want them to take take this on and give me ideas that I couldn't have thought of myself. that's That's an interesting point because my experience as an HR professional, I've spoken to not the same entrepreneurs, obviously, but to entrepreneurs who've said similar things, but their recruitment practices are not designed or they're as they go through that process,
00:23:56
Speaker
They may say that they're looking for someone with ideas and creativity and challenge, but they adopt this recruitment approach or approach to recruitment that is, I'm looking for the person who's going to report to me.
00:24:14
Speaker
um And it's quite likely that the person they think they want to recruit is actually the person who's more likely to become their next competitor. Ah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's a mindset shift, right?
00:24:26
Speaker
Like I think, i think crew leaders are always creating more leaders. And so that's how they have to look at this. It's, you know, when I'm hiring someone, I'm hiring a leader, I'm hiring someone that I want to develop into a leader.
Conclusion and Sponsor Acknowledgements
00:24:38
Speaker
and And that takes work. right A lot of work. Yeah, it takes work. but But then, you know, like that's not that's where you want to have them end up at when you're hiring them.
00:24:54
Speaker
Yeah, but with the self-sustaining team index, what you're aiming to do, I think, is to give people the information that they need to start developing the leaders within their team. That's right.
00:25:09
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think the biggest problem is when you put someone into a leadership position, because let's say they're really good at a certain job, but you don't train them in leadership skills afterwards because it's a whole different thing than just the role. Right.
00:25:27
Speaker
Yes. and And that's that's kind of the gap that we're trying to fill here with this. Right. is is This is a leadership development yeah program, um but I hope to make it really, you know, really practical and something that if you learn the skills and learn it together and it's collaborative,
00:25:44
Speaker
ah you'll you'll get excited but about it because now you now you know how. Where is it that people can find more information about it ah Just go to um my website, happyhires.ca.
00:25:57
Speaker
And right right from the front, you could try out the the self-sustaining team index. It's free. Great. And then just reach out to me. Reach out to me. And if we're a good fit, we'll have a conversation on how you can use the self-sustaining team index in your company and whether you want my help or not to to do the training with your team.
00:26:19
Speaker
That's great. Thank you very much, Lindsay. It's been a very interesting and do appreciate you helping me make such an interesting episode of The Independent Minds. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:26:31
Speaker
Pleasure. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Lindsay Zhang of happyhires.ca. You can find out more information about both of us at abeceda.co.uk.
00:26:49
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to Lindsay. If you're a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if, like Lindsay, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where great hosts and great guests are matched.
00:27:07
Speaker
The Zencastr system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and have experienced technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:27:38
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. I am sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Lindsay and I have enjoyed making it.
00:27:49
Speaker
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00:28:00
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening, and goodbye.