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#202 - Zoe Ross
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Literary agent, Zoe Ross joins us this week to chat about her work with United Agents, her career path through publishing and the many hurdles writers need to overcome to reach publication.
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Transcript
The Art of Plotting and Content Creation
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything. You can fix plot holes. So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble.
Introduction to Zoe Ross
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by literary agent Zoe Ross. Hello. Welcome. Hi there. Hi. Thank you very much for having me.
00:00:25
Speaker
Thanks so much for coming on.
Zoe Ross's Career Journey
00:00:27
Speaker
um Jumping right in, you are part of the United Agents team and have been since, is it 2009? Yes, frighteningly. 15 years. 15 years, this September, yeah. Yeah. Am I right in thinking you didn't start as as an agent or an agent's assistant, you actually started in the Foreign Rights Department?
00:00:49
Speaker
That is true. Yes, I started as a foreign rights assistant and kind of jumped around quite a lot over a number of years between foreign rights. Then I didn't move across to be an agents assistant. I also sold oh audio rights exclusively at one point. And then I spent a few years doing book to screen rights. Um, okay. During which time I was beginning gradually to build my own client list before I sort of became a full time primary agent.
Strength in Rights Management
00:01:19
Speaker
Okay, so to some degree being a literary agent sounds like it was always the the direction you were headed. Yeah, exactly. And then it always just takes a little longer than you might anticipate when you're in your early mid 20s to get where you'd like to be. um But yes, I think I quickly realized that I'd like to represent my own clients. And then it was just a question of um finding the a path to that. um But I'm really grateful for all of that varied experience I had, because I think it set me up really nicely, um because I can i continue to, for example, represent my own clients for for book to screen, um which I wouldn't have been able to do had I not had those few years of experience across the whole United Agents list. So in retrospect, I think it all sort of makes sense as a narrative, but it it took took a little while.
00:02:13
Speaker
Okay, so do do you only represent your own clients in terms of book to screen or do you also do that for some of the other um literary agents at United Agents? um So as a sort of happy hangover I do continue to represent one or two other authors um of other agents for their screen rights just because we have good relationships and I particularly like their work, but otherwise it's just it's just my own.
00:02:39
Speaker
Okay, that's cool. I guess it's kind of nice that you are a sort of, you do a lot of the process without having to bring in sort of more people to to yeah to get things done. Yeah, no, it's satisfying. It's nice to be able to sort of be more of a one-stop shop as an individual, but then obviously as an agency, we do have wider resources that I very much rely on as well.
Book to Screen Adaptations: Challenges and Roles
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, of course.
00:03:06
Speaker
and didn't We don't have that many um agents on the on the podcast who who do sort of book the screen and stuff. What does it entail? Like, how different is it from um sort of publishing? It's pretty different. um It's a very, very different model. um Totally different set of relationships, of course, um largely with with producers and also with, I don't know if you've ever talked about or ever talked to scouts on the podcast. Do you know what I mean by a scout?
00:03:35
Speaker
I've talked about Scouts and and I've spoken to agents who started as Scouts, but I think it's one of those really unsung roles in publishing. Yeah, it's a role that's sort of quite unusual and and needs um unpacking, but it it is an unsung role. um Scouts are and ah brilliant and incredibly useful. um And I was just mentioning them because there are Scouts who specialize in book to screen. So there are a number of Scouts who do, who work both for international publishers and production companies, but some who just work with production companies. so
00:04:10
Speaker
There are some of those that I also have relationships with that I you know really lean on when I'm trying to get material out there to producers. um But yes, it's a very different different world really to the publishing world, um where the the sort of agreements and contracts are incredibly complicated upfront with very little upfront ah remuneration, but the sort of promise that if something actually does get made, you know, that's a huge boon um and very exciting. um But yes, it works works differently.
00:04:50
Speaker
Those deals are normally, there is some sort of like money upfront, but then it's, it's the usually American thinking. It's if we make this, when we make this, this is, you'll make more money at the time.
00:05:04
Speaker
very much so. And of course, it completely ideally um transforms the life of the book. So, yeah you know if though you know, it's just an exceptionally exciting thing for an author if your book is transferred to screen for lots of reasons, not just financial.
00:05:24
Speaker
but yeah Is it something, because you've kind of worked in that space and continue to work in that space, when you're like reading query letters, is that something you think about when you're reading a manuscript? is like Do you think about the adaptability of that forescreen?
00:05:39
Speaker
partially it's not my sort of primary thought but I think it's there and it's exciting when you read something that you sort of organically think yes actually this has huge potential for screen two because that's you know a nice a really nice part of the picture if you can make it happen I mean much more often than not And it's, this is still quite exciting in and of itself, but much more often than not, you know, something might get optioned, but never be, never be made. yeah Um, so, you know, I have a number of things under option at the moment and probably, I don't know. I'd probably have a conversion rate of one in 10 or something, which I don't think is unusual.
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's about the people that I've spoken to around this. have That's about what what people say is like one in 10 optioned novels actually turn into a television or film or whatever. Yes, exactly. Which is just the way it goes. And equally, I think, you know, producers have a number of things at any one time in development with the expectation that a number of them will never see, actually see broadcast or ever be really you know be made and that's just the way it goes. It's so complex getting all the pieces together. It's so competitive and it's so much money to do a production like that. Yes, exactly. Yeah, there's much more there's much more at stake and in various yeah ways, I think. Yeah, for sure. and just as what's what's Sorry, I think what's quite interesting in terms of the life of a book and when it is adapted that's very interesting is that um
00:07:10
Speaker
the the the When it's a book, the writer of the book is the principal creative party, right? But when it comes to adapting um the work, the director and the actors um suddenly become vastly more important. And sort of that the sort of there are so many more creative voices involved. And I think that's sort of the the the fact that the text itself is not the only thing is really fascinating as well.
00:07:37
Speaker
Yeah for sure and and it's it's an entirely different skill from um writing a novel and writing a screenplay is adapting a novel into a screenplay. Yes absolutely yeah and I think lots of lots of authors are kind of intrigued by the challenge of adapting their own work um And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't, but I think there's always, even if you do adapt it yourself, there's always nonetheless a moment where you have to relinquish control because it falls into the hands of so many other people um who are going to bring their own context and interpretation to their work.
Zoe's Clientele and Genre Preferences
00:08:21
Speaker
It's just, you know, when you write your own book, you're almost entirely in control of the story and that just changes so much when it's adapted.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Because writing writing a novel, there's usually and two or three people involved. You'll have like your your editor, maybe your agent, but with yeah obviously there's a lot more um chefs in the kitchen when it comes to the screen adaptation. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. I'd love to get onto you a bit now and talk about your list. So just for everyone listening, um what is this what's the sort of range of of authors and genres that that you represent?
00:08:59
Speaker
It's pretty broad and eclectic. um I represent some literary fiction. um I represent some, I suppose, what you might categorise as sort of upmarket commercial fiction.
00:09:14
Speaker
Um, two, I represents i some cookery, some memoir, some journalism. I mean, journalists writing sort of narrative nonfiction. Um, that probably covers it. Um, yeah, but it's, it's pretty wide ranging and then little sort of smatterings of slightly more sort of celebrity inflected things too.
00:09:41
Speaker
So it might be easier to frame it as what you don't represent. It sounds like it's more kind of genre stuff. Exactly. Or anything YA or children's. Exactly that. So I don't represent sci fi fantasy. um I don't represent ultra commercial fiction. um And yes, I don't represent YA or children's although I've recently been working on a novel that's kind of YA crossover and it was quite interesting sharing that book with publishers because one or two felt it was YA, others generally didn't. And then seeing that book, how people are reacted to that book in other in foreign markets, again, was really interesting because different markets have very different relationships to YA and what that means. um So it was bought, I think, for
00:10:36
Speaker
a YA list in France, for example, but it's not being published as YA here. So there are always slight outliers on my list as well. That's interesting. That must have been it because what I've heard about, obviously crossover, new adult, that kind of space is very much kind of growing at the moment. But usually what I hear is that it's the YA authors and the and the agents that represent YA that are sort of pushing upwards into that and less so adult authors um sort of moving down. Yeah yeah this is and it's not something I sort of sought out or sought to sought to represent as a category but um it's just a really extraordinarily well-written moving story that happens to be narrated by a teenage protagonist but with sort of quite grown-up themes. But I suppose this might be kind of cliche but
00:11:35
Speaker
i you know I'm just drawn to really what I perceive to be really exceptional writing and I don't really mind otherwise, you know whether it's sort of going to then be categorized as literary or commercial or for a younger reader or a more mature reader, if it happens to sort of affect me and I can see a path to selling it quite importantly then then I'm always keen to work with people on that sort of whatever it might be. Yeah I mean yeah that sounds great obviously the focus is the what is this thing in isolation without everything else like yeah what does this story give me? Yes you know and I just felt with this particular book you know it if it made me cry I just thought if it's going to sort of get your gut like that then I've got a really good chance of
00:12:28
Speaker
there's a really good chance that other people will feel the same way. um And there is all of that sort of um cynical and more calculated thinking, of course, that goes on when you're reading work um in terms of, you know, well, who, what's what's the market for this? What, you know, what's its potential value?
00:12:45
Speaker
who could I see publishing it? But if you can kind of cut through all of that to, you know, has this book just completely broken my heart or moved me very powerfully, then it's sort of irresistible and ought to be a no brainer. It's never necessarily that straightforward. But if it's, if it's that affecting, I would hope that other people would feel the same way and therefore it would find a way to being published without thinking too carefully about categories and register and you know whose list and blah, blah, blah.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah. And I would say as someone sort of, uh, outside of agenting looking in, i I would imagine you as an agent must first of all have really have your like, uh, finger on the pulse of what is working and stuff like that. And also you must read so much that, um, if something really does affect you, then it must really stand out. I would imagine. Yeah, I think that's probably true. And, you know, I think it's the same.
00:13:50
Speaker
for and you know for any reader, you might go through a patch where you're reading things and they're just not quite hitting home and you sort of think, you might think to yourself, God, do I not even enjoy reading? i don't but so Why is this experience just not capturing me anymore? And then you read something and think, oh, there it is. And this is, you know, this is your faith is sort of restored in your own capacity to connect with good books. So even I think as a lay reader, you feel that sometimes, and then certainly professionally,
00:14:19
Speaker
you know, you can be reading, trying to read things and sort of struggling to really engage and stay with things and worrying that it's you. And sometimes it is you, for one reason or another, but largely it's just because the thing isn't hit isn't reaching you. And that's just a sort of chemical thing, or sort of, um yeah, it you just have to sort of hold on and trust that when when it when it's the right thing you'll know. And I think editors feel that way very much too.
00:14:53
Speaker
No, I feel that ah acutely because I used to be, when I was younger, I always used to sort of, if I wasn't enjoying a book, and this was probably the same with like a television show or a movie, yeah I would just kind of soldier through it and just think, oh no, it probably gets better. But now, I just don't have the time really. So yeah it's more, if I'm not enjoying something, I'll think, okay, well, you know, whether it's me or the book, this partnership is not working. I'm just going to put this down and read something else.
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, well, exactly. And quite often there's a confusing middle ground where something is sort of adequate and and it's passing the time and it's kind of a good enough experience, but it's not completely captivating. And actually, I kind of think, I think there's a lot of, there are a lot of times where you might submit a novel to a number of publishers and some of the feedback you might get or I sometimes get is, you know, I really enjoyed reading this.
00:15:50
Speaker
But I didn't quite feel passionately enough. That's a bit of a sort of repeated answer, but I get it in that I can see this is good. I enjoyed it, but I need to feel so much more for this to be able to want to live with it, edit it a number of times, see it through to publication over the course of a year or more.
00:16:13
Speaker
so really need to sort of punch up, punch beyond feeling sort of like a nice experience. It really has to feel extraordinary. Yeah. For me to want to take the risk of publishing it. yeah yeah Yeah, exactly. No, and it's the industry feels more risk averse than it's ever been. I think there's the same with a lot of industries around the world. So yes. Yeah. Like you say, you really have to believe in it. Exactly. Because it's a long process and it's really risky.
00:16:43
Speaker
And it's tough to make things work and there's so much potential heartbreak in it because um there are things you really believe in that don't always reach the readership they should. So you really have to sort of, you really have to love something to want to take those risks, I think.
00:17:04
Speaker
So I think I'm interpreting this as we're largely talking about fiction. Is that also kind of how you ah try and approach nonfiction or is there a sort of difference in the way that you look at it? That's a good question. um I think unless it's sort of you know very personally driven narrative nonfiction, there's probably a little bit more head and a little bit less heart yeah in in and thinking about nonfiction.
00:17:30
Speaker
um Yes. I suppose that's right. But perhaps the parallel is, and this is actually really a sort of um a phrase I don't really want to to use, but does this sort of tickle my mind? Does this kind of excite my mind in the way that fiction might sort of grab my heart, possibly, in some senses?
Client Success Stories: Kate Young
00:17:51
Speaker
Like, is this subject in the way that it's being um approached exciting intellectually?
00:17:59
Speaker
and That might be how I think about nonfiction a bit more. yeah Or is this kind of innovating in one way or another? Is this provoking, totally new thoughts in my own mind? Is this going to really sort of stimulate other people's minds, I suppose? But again, if it's more emotionally driven nonfiction, then I would return to a more i would pretend to looking for a more emotional response, I think.
00:18:26
Speaker
Yes. I had um one of your authors, Kate Young, on the podcast not long ago. um And I know that you signed her originally with the Little Library cookbook yeah series, which are great, yes but she's now since published her debut. And she so she she has fiction and nonfiction.
00:18:50
Speaker
is um Was that something that you two had always like discussed? Is that something that you were kind of encouraging her to also do fiction? No, know um it wasn't. But of course, the Little Library Cookbook series, by definition, are all about celebrating literature and food. So I know that she's ah you know she's an extraordinarily prolific reader.
00:19:13
Speaker
and passionate about fiction. And um so it kind of, well actually I was about to say it makes sense to me that then she then wanted to write fiction, which doesn't necessarily hold, but no, it was a very pleasant surprise that she said she wanted to write fiction. um And I don't know whether she talked about this with you, but the first novel that she wrote was not the novel we then went on to sell. Yeah, so she went through a really interesting process, I think of
00:19:47
Speaker
cover this already, but trying to write something, I think she felt she ought to write or that kind of paid tribute to the kind of books she enjoyed reading. And when that didn't work, she actually just scrapped it and said, I just want to write something that brings me pure joy. I want to write something that is just just enormous fun. And that's what she did. And that's what worked, and which was interesting when she let go of, I think, overthinking it. Although that said, she was incredibly smart about um researching the rom-com genre and sort of calculating the sort of scaffolding of the book. But beyond that, she just went and had fun. And that was yeah really a really joyful experience as her agent because it was just
00:20:34
Speaker
the book was pure fun and brilliantly well written. Just a total pleasure to share with people because it made made me smile and laugh and um moved me also and I was pretty certain other people would feel the same way.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and And like your description of how she approached that, the the second book, not the first one, which isn't the one that ended up being published, and sounds very much it's in line with how you are a kind of approach looking for, ah looking through queries and looking for new people to add to your list. Yeah. Yeah. in the it just felt it felt sort of very obvious because it was just ah just immediately loved reading it. It's not always that straightforward of course and I've worked with many authors where there's enough there that you trust that it's worth
00:21:32
Speaker
developing the manuscript and working through a number of drafts to get to that feeling, it doesn't always immediately strike you. yeah It's sort of an obvious one, but in Kate's case, after having had you know a kind of difficult time with the first one where it just didn't feel right, it was so wonderful that the second one just hit all the right notes.
00:21:58
Speaker
It was a very straightforward experience for me as an agent to sell it, which was very pleasing. Yeah, amazing.
Shifts in Literary Representation
00:22:06
Speaker
On a wider scale, your list, fiction and nonfiction, is it about a 50-50 split or do you lean more heavily in one direction? It keeps sort of moving because I would have said possibly a year or two ago that it felt more weighted towards nonfiction, but at the moment it feels as though fiction is is coming back strong on my list strangely. And that also possibly reflects where the market is in that I think nonfiction is particularly difficult at the moment. um So for now, I seem to have found myself ah working on more fiction than nonfiction, which surprises me, but it's just sort of organically happened.
00:22:48
Speaker
Oh, interesting. i didn't Generally on the podcast, much more sort of fiction um minded. whats What's tricky about nonfiction at the moment?
00:23:00
Speaker
it seems that generally speaking publishers have found in the last year or so I think that a lot of non-fiction just hasn't landed in the market so a lot of books have underperformed and there's quite a lot of puzzlement around that and and concern and therefore there's a lot more caution around non-fiction and I think a sense that to get a non-fiction proposal over the line, it's really got to be exceptionally strong and robust.
00:23:32
Speaker
um and it just doesn't but i mean it just It's interesting how how things move. are just I came back from maternity leave last in the middle of last year and my sense was when I came back that there had been a real boom in non-fiction and that People were publishers were buying nonfiction at very high prices. And perhaps then we've seen a fallout from that in that people had paid a huge amount for books that then struggled to live up to those advances in the last year.
Balancing New and Existing Clients
00:24:05
Speaker
And then there's a little bit of a sort of um reverb from that now that might that may be what's happened.
00:24:12
Speaker
I see. I guess a lot of them with any kind of creative industry, it's all ebbs and flows though, isn't it? Something's out of fashion for a bit that comes back in. Exactly. Totally. It's all cyclical. Totally. yeah yeah um Before we venture over to the desert island, I did want to ask one more thing. um You've been doing this for a while now. Your list is around 60 people.
00:24:38
Speaker
um I wanted to ask, so as an agent, when your list grows, does it change the way that you consider queries from new authors? like Is there more you have to think about with a bigger list?
00:24:53
Speaker
um i think I think that the way that you think yes the way that you consider the shape and size of your list changes.
00:25:08
Speaker
um I think when you're starting out, you're very excited, I think, and chuffed to be representing people. And perhaps thinking slightly less, or at least I can only speak for myself, I was thinking slightly less about, you know, well, look, how much time am I going and energy am I going to need to put into this project to see it through? How likely is it that this is going to sell sort of meaningfully?
00:25:33
Speaker
and I just, you know, i I was excited to represent people who I thought were interesting and excellent and doing exciting things, um which is still the case, but I do have to be more pragmatic now. Even if someone's doing something that I think is really quite interesting, I might have to say to myself, realistically, you know,
00:26:02
Speaker
can i see this can I see myself selling this um in a meaningful way? How much of my time and energy is going to be needed to to make that happen?
00:26:16
Speaker
and even if things might sort of tickle my fancy, I might just have to say no in a way that I probably wouldn't have five or eight years ago. So yeah, there's a different sort of pragmatism maybe.
00:26:32
Speaker
I spoke to Megan Carroll recently, asked her a similar question, and she was saying, yeah, does with the much look bigger list, she's she was saying she's had queries that she adored, but she and she wanted to take them on, but she looked at her schedule and just knew that if she did take them on, it would be months and months and months before she would actually have time to meaningfully interact with that author and that novel that it wouldn't be fair to them. Yes, yes, that's also absolutely right. You know, exactly. That's a sort of perhaps a more relational way to think about it, which is like, can I give this person what they need? um That's true. You know, can I make this relationship meaningful enough for them? And can I give them what they're owed? You know, because the worst thing is for a writer to feel
00:27:28
Speaker
sidelined, overlooked, ignored by their agent. It's just miserable. It's just, it's not fair and it's very unproductive. So you would never want to be taking people on knowing there's a risk that you would let them down, of course. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:46
Speaker
Do you think, just on from that, is there ever a point, ah presumably there is a point where you are just not really considering many queries? when your list Your list reaches a certain size where you say like, I can take one person per X amount of time. I'm not i'm not at that point. I'm always really interested to see when agents say, you know, my list is full. Yeah, um I'm not that guy at this point. Also, because I don't want to miss anything exceptional. So and I'm still I'm still I still feel as though I'm developing my list. It's still evolving. You know, I think over the course of time, you start to sort of get a strong sense of which of your authors um might sort of
00:28:36
Speaker
but sort of establish themselves as sort of sort of consistent repeat authors and which might sort of write at a different pace and sort of, you know, resurface every few years with something special. um And then there'll be others where you probably recognise actually there was one book there and we might not you know, foresee everybody work together again. um So unless you've got and unless and until I have a list that feels, you know, really sort of that it's motoring on the level of repeat authors, people who are going to
00:29:12
Speaker
write a book ah a book you know, a year or that's, that's, I don't really have that kind of author, but authors who I know are going to keep writing and keep working um across the whole list. I always feel as though there's space because people go quiet for a long time. And so I haven't got 60 people producing work at any one time.
00:29:33
Speaker
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it in those terms, the kind of the different rate at which authors are doing things. And then that, a lot of it comes down to genre and stuff too. And you represent literary fiction authors who often, like you say, won't, they'll write a book every four years or five years.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah. And equally, you know, you you represent um cookbook authors who might do multiple books a year. So I guess it it would take a long time to even see where the kind of average um up and down and workflow for each author would be anyway. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And for example, at the start of this year, I think it started this year, um I sold um two novels by a literary author of mine, um the first of which won't be delivered until November 2025. So they're sort of busy and and under contract. But you know for the next year, there's there's not a huge amount that I can
00:30:37
Speaker
I'll be sort of involved with for them. So i you know people are sort of busy at different moments um and go quiet at different moments.
Desert Island Book Choice
00:30:48
Speaker
and yeah So anyway, as it stands at the moment, I'm not sort of closing my list.
00:30:54
Speaker
No, no. Ready to expand, ready to grow, ready for more people to query you. Yes. And that brings us to the point in the episode where um I ask you, Zoe, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be? So knowing this question was coming,
00:31:17
Speaker
um The first book that came to mind, which I'm going to declare, and I've been sort of thinking why I'm going to try and explain. um But this was my instinctive answer, so I'm going to share it. um This is a book by a French novelist called Marguerite Jarras, called The Lover or La Monde.
00:31:40
Speaker
um And this is a book that I discovered as a student and loved very much and have continued to think about a lot over the years. And I feel slightly, slightly embarrassed by my choice because I think it's a fairly sort of pretentious student's choice. um But it's what it's what I wanted to say. So I'm saying it. And I think i I really, really love the French language and I'm not as proficient as I once was, but I think this novel I can still manage. So I feel as though it would sort of engage that part of my mind if I had it with me and I could continue to reread it. And I think a lot of its themes and its sort of stylistic elements are
00:32:39
Speaker
Um, really, they really sort of tie into things that I'm really interested in still. Um, and I think I would still get a lot out of it and it might remind me of being young as well to keep reaching it.
00:32:55
Speaker
remind you of being 20. Yeah, no, i I like that. And and it would it would be the sort of bonus of probably re-familiarising you with the French language, which maybe you'd then be inspired to pick up again. Yeah, I mean, I can still speak enough to to be able to read a novel. it's it's sort of deceptively simplistically written to my memory so okay i feel like i could cope with it i think i haven' not doubted it in the last couple of years
00:33:26
Speaker
but um It also just it's just, it just reminds me as well, you know, those very beautifully published um French books, very, very elegant and classic book jackets that are kind of um off-white, kind of cream with ah like ah either a blue or a red border and sort of, they're all very uniform. And when I was a student, I studied languages and I spent a year in Paris as an intern at a French publishing house.
00:33:57
Speaker
um And I just, you know, was fetishistically, you know, very much in love with their books. And it reminds me of all of that atmosphere and that world as well. I think it's ah it's ah it's a great choice. um Thanks. And now that you've explained it it doesn't it, it doesn't come across as pretentious, I don't think it's more like a memory of your youth and a kind of like touching a book that really reached you.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah, it did in in many ways. and Yeah.
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:34:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I was I was loved to very much as a writer when I was younger. Next up, I've got some questions about more on the specifics of of querying and how you tackle that, um as well as um I'd love to ask about kind of where the the idea of concept is king is in in today's market, but that will all be in the extended episode available on Patreon. that So absolutely hats off to anyone who can who does embark on that journey and actually finish it. Exactly. Totally agree.
00:35:01
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Zoe. um that's That's got us to the end of the episode. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting with me and telling me all about your work at United Agents and everything you've been up to. It's been really interesting chatting with you. Thank you very much for having me. It's been great. And for anyone interested in querying Zoe or any of the team over at United Agents, head over to unitedagents.curdetuk.com slash submission dash guidelines, and you'll find all the information you need there. To support the podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Troops. Thanks again to Zoe and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you in the next episode.