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#212 - Jade Kavanagh
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Literary agent, Jade Kavanagh joins us this week to chat about her career in publishing, what she is looking to add to her list and which genres might be on the up this year!
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Transcript
Introduction and Jade Kavanagh's Role
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything. You can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble. Hello, and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by literary agent, Jade Kavanagh. Hello. Hi, Jamie. Happy to be here.
00:00:25
Speaker
Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Let's jump straight in. um Talk a bit about you. Am I right in thinking it was last summer that you and Rebecca Finch were promoted from junior agents to grown-up agents, I
Jade Kavanagh's Journey into Publishing
00:00:41
Speaker
guess? You're all grown-up agents, that's it, yeah. yeah ah Yeah, I think officially, I think it was around the spring and then We, yeah, I think it all happened in August. We announced it. We've done our little bookseller announcement where they use a, we had a couple photo taken. I'm not sure if you've seen it. I've seen it. but It's a really gorgeous picture of me and Becca, like we're married, yeah um which is really nice. So yeah, that'll happen then.
00:01:08
Speaker
So, I mean, shout out to Rebecca who came on the podcast a while back. um Episode 153, I think, if anyone's listening and wants to go back and and hear more from Rebecca. um But back onto you. So you've been at Dolly Anderson since 2020. How did you first, like what was your first kind of foot in the door with publishing and then what was your kind of path to that eventually led you to Dolly Anderson and and where you are now?
00:01:35
Speaker
So I came out of uni, I got my masters and I was like, Oh, I'll just go into publishing. That'll be so easy. I love books. So easy to get into it. Very quickly realized that it's very hard to get into an issue but at that point, really, unless you knew someone. I think this was around 2016, 2017. So the new sort of like entries and the programs and the work experience stuff was all sort of starting that hadn't
First Employment and Building a Client List
00:02:07
Speaker
really started yet. So it was the good old fashioned intern, work experience unpaid, all that sort of stuff. um I did a few placements. Out of my masters, I did a publishing one at Watkins Press, which was non fic. It was actually great. And then I did a few others. I did another literary agency and then I applied for one at Caroline Sheldon literary agency. She um
00:02:34
Speaker
It's fantastic. And she represents the children's book author, Julia Donaldson, among others, saga authors, women's authors, and illustrators, and and children's authors. And I done a placement there. And then I loved it so, so much. And she was looking for an assistant. So she hired me.
00:02:55
Speaker
And I worked there for about two and a half years. And then okay February, 2020, I applied for assistant to Camilla. And I went through the interview process, got the interview and everything, did a trial day on the Thursday, got interviewed, got the job on the Friday and Monday was the lockdown. So I actually started this job fully remote, fully locked down. Wow. April, 2020.
00:03:26
Speaker
And then, yeah, I've just been sort of made my way as Camilla's assistant, moved up to junior agent, started handling all the big fit all the big contracts or anything like that. And then, yeah, I've started taking my own clients and then fully literary agent, yeah. That's Camilla Bolton, right? Camilla Bolton, yeah, who's the yeah senior agent here and now managing director of this part of the agency.
00:03:48
Speaker
Okay, okay. And at what point during kind of that time of you joining, did you start to build your list? Quite early on, actually, I think I took on my first author, Holly Craig, in, I feel like it was December 2020, which was quite early on, but I just fell in love with the manuscripts. And I think the the way things are done here, they just foster such a lovely atmosphere of you know opportunity and we can really do whatever we feel really passionate about. So I took it on and took my time with it and fell in love with the book.
Representing Darker Genres and Trends
00:04:27
Speaker
So yeah, that was 2020, but I've been very slow but sure and methodical with my, who I take on the projects I work on.
00:04:36
Speaker
Okay. So were you, you weren't a junior agent, then you were agent, you were still an assistant, committed his assistant at that point. yeah So how does it, because I guess officially no one is ah querying you. So how does it work that you end up kind of like picking up ah an author at that point? So I fell in love with it in Camilla's inbox. Right. I fell in love with it myself. And then it wasn't quite for Camilla.
00:05:03
Speaker
There's loads of reasons why it wouldn't be for an agent, um which we can get onto later. But she either didn't have the time, didn't have, and had something similar on her list, didn't love it the way I loved it, all these things. So I contacted Holly and said, if you'd like to work with me, I'd be very happy. And Holly very generously took a punt on me. And yeah, that's how it worked.
00:05:26
Speaker
Did you say in the email, you will be the first author that I'm representing? Yeah. Yeah. That's quite a special thing, your first author actually. It is. Um, and yeah, me and Holly still work together and love working together. And I hope we're working together for the rest of both of our careers.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, amazing. And then presumably after that, once you, I guess it looks sort of, I don't want to say scariest, but like, it's the biggest step to take on the first author to, you know, to say to Camilla, I guess, look, I i think I really want to, this could be the first person on my list. Presumably after that, like you said, it was a sort of slow but methodical building up of the list. I mean, when Camilla hired me, the job role actually was assistant to Camilla Bolton with a view to moving to junior agent because okay it was actually the perfect, I mean, it's the dream role because it starts with the experience I already had and actually has this opportunity to build. And because the idea was that we expand this side of the agency and the sort of crime thriller mysteries horror side. So that was what I was hired for. And then I just sort of took the initiative and saw if I could do it and had a go.
00:06:38
Speaker
Yeah. And here we are. And here we are. But just those five years later. So let's talk about the list then and your list. What sort of authors, what sort of genres do you do you represent? So I represent, as I say, sort of the darker side of fiction. Me and Rebecca do a lot of these sort of things together. We do a lot of lives and panels and stuff. And we always say we're sort of the equal and opposite of each other because she's after all the rom-coms, fluffy, romanticy, all that stuff. And I'm after the horror, suspense, thriller, you know,
00:07:14
Speaker
So you'll probably be able to find, if your book exists in the commercial fiction space, it's probably going to exist in one of our lists. So yeah, I love all things suspense, thriller, horror very much. And most recently I am expanding into what we're calling, and what is now my favorite word, horror-mance.
00:07:40
Speaker
I have heard this recently. I heard it like on a submission I got um at the start of the year by an author I've actually now signed because I fell in love with it so much. And she put horror mance in her cover letter and I just was like, this is the perfect genre ever. Like, this is great.
00:08:00
Speaker
Yeah. i it's what it's one i've been ah People are trying to do the romantic thing now with all the different genres in terms of just like naming the convention for it. Some of them are sticking, some are not. I think horror man's is officially stuck for me and I think I've used it in every other sentence since I've been back at work. ah We were trying to think of something the other day where it was um thriller and romance or action romance put together. And at the at the moment, it's romaction or thrill-a-mance. I like thrill-a-mance. Do you? Romaction feels like it's catching a bit on the on the tongue, you know, to say it. Yeah, it's ah it's a work in progress for sure. Yeah. That's cool. But generally, you are darker, you're looking for the more suspense stuff, the more kind of psychological
00:08:51
Speaker
yes Yeah, i sort of I haven't found a police procedural yet that I really, really could see myself working on or want to. I mean, as a reader, I
Genre Interests and Publishing Trends Discussion
00:09:02
Speaker
love them. I think the Vera books, for example, and Cleve's series are one of my favorite things to go and read. But I ah think it's so hard to do. And I haven't come across a submission where I absolutely fall in love with it yet. In terms of other genres,
00:09:20
Speaker
other than sort of that dark side, I'm very into book club talking point, that sort of fiction as well. Okay, book club is, this is one of the things where sometimes in life I think I have an understanding of something and then someone will tell me something and I'll think, maybe I actually have no idea about what that means. When you say book club, as a genre, my understanding is that it broadly means, like you just said, there's a, the topic at the heart, the theme is something that can be discussed as a group. Yeah. It's, it's, you're right. It's so tricky to define and sometimes I feel like we throw
00:09:57
Speaker
book club out, we all sort of know what we mean in the industry. Actually, it makes no sense. um Because it doesn't mean book club in the formal way where it's like, you'd get together with your book club and talk about this, because that could be any, any book. But I think, traditionally, it would be that more talking point, theme led. It's definitely more general fiction, I think, where it can't fit into pure romance,
00:10:24
Speaker
pure suspense, it can have elements of all those things. For example, Yellow Face, I would say, is a thriller-edged, but it definitely sits in the book club area. yeah Something like Queenie, Such a Fun Age, Really Good Actually, all those sort of more general fiction that have those big themes with them is a book club book, I think.
00:10:55
Speaker
Okay. So when you say book club, it's book club, but please bear in mind the other genres that you represent, because you because am I right in thinking book club can also represent like a sort of literary comedy? Oh yeah, it definitely can. That's the thing with it, it just sort of exists. This is why I always talk to authors, but it's so hard to sort of define your book. If it doesn't sit in one of these genres, that's okay.
00:11:22
Speaker
It just, just say, I mean, I think the beauty of what everyone's looking for now is the mashups. We're so excited about all these mashups. So if this was a, if this is a, I, and a romance with elements of a thriller, but has that talking point element as well, then say all of those things. yeah And, you know, I think that's the difficulty with trying to box ourselves into genre, especially now.
00:11:52
Speaker
As I say, I think I'm very excited by all the mashups. Yeah. But so the clue here is like read and and on the website, you have a list of of genres here and the clue is like, look at all of the genres. That's the kind of vibe and it's more like a vibe thing than it is a specific genre. And that's why we sort of put those wish lists together because while these more general things can exist, I mean, I'd like, you know, there's any and all mysteries, crimes and thrillers I want to see, but there's specific aspects of each of those.
00:12:24
Speaker
and but I'm more interested in and in the go club space as well. There are specific things and it does sound so specific. So for authors, it's hard because it doesn't necessarily fit into that. But the reason we say it is on the off chance that someone has written the perfect book that I want to work on. At least it's out there for people to see. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:48
Speaker
it's always a difficult thing to kind of narrow down which agent would be most suitable just based off like a bio on ah on a website. Yeah, this is why we've sort of, we've put together the other website, there's a submissions portal where you can like, yes tick what your book is like, and then you can see which agents are looking for that. And then we all sort of pop up and then our wish lists are underneath and you can see a bit more about what we're specifically looking for. So hopefully we've found a way of making it as easy as possible for authors, but I do know it's so hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have seen that on the website and I think it's great. um I just want to talk about that later on. For now, just while we were talking about horror-mance, it sort of feels, going into 2025, I have this sort of feeling that publishing is due its next big trend, I think.
00:13:40
Speaker
Okay, yeah yeah. It feels like, I think romanticism is still doing very well. But the kind of, what I'm hearing is that it's a little, it's getting a bit saturated with publishers, you know, a lot of it has been signed, a lot of it's coming out or about to come out. Yeah. It's like anything, isn't it? I mean, it was the trend and readers, readers absolutely love it. And what's great about romanticism, and really any trend is that it's so It was so reader led. It was so reader led. I mean, they dictated what happened, which, which I just love. And then editors had to respond and we had to respond. Um, but yeah, I think you're right. I think not to sort of go back to pandemic because I, you know, we never want to talk about it, but I think what happened then is everyone sort of needed that more light, you know, firstly, the escapism. Secondly, that sort of like very light rom-com stuff, which is why
00:14:34
Speaker
those sort of book-talky rom-coms and stuff really took off. And it was amazing. And then, yeah, I think you're right. I think now we're sort of horrors on the up, becoming more mainstream. It's back in the cinemas, all these things. So yeah, I think there is, I think you're right. There's an uptick towards it. I'm happy because if horror amounts to the new trend, i I think those stories have never been out of fashion. And if you look back and you look at like,
00:15:04
Speaker
all the vampire stories over the ages. They are never not in fashion, but they are, they are the original
Self-Publishing vs Traditional Publishing
00:15:11
Speaker
horror man. So I mean, Dracula is that story of a horror man. And we just had the new Dracula Nosferatu come out. Exactly. We had Nosferatu, we've had over the years, we've had Interview with a Vampire, we've had The Twilight, we've had um even Buffy and things like that. It's always there. So I'm very excited by a bit of a resurgence.
00:15:32
Speaker
because horror ma Yeah, Hormats could be the next big thing. It's interesting when you think of it in terms of that. It does seem like, because Cozy has become so popular as well recently and and Cozy crossing genres like Cozy crime, Cozy fantasy. yeah It's interesting that it seems like consumers want Uh, they either want to be deeply unsettled with their horror or like psychological thrillers, or they want to be entirely 100% comfortable with their cozy stuff. I think you're right. I think, and i yeah, and I think you're right. And it exists in in all genres. I mean, look at, um, sort of romantic fiction. You have those sort of, you have the very sort of romance heavy, you know, sex on the page, all that sort of stuff. But then you also always have those.
00:16:20
Speaker
sort of cozy cottage vibe, you know, heroin goes to a little house in the country and she falls in love and it's completely cozy and completely without any threat or any, you know, explicit scenes or anything. So it exists in both in all genres. And and you have police procedures that are like very, the gritty and to the point and then you have the the suspense that incorporates police procedural, but actually is completely unbelievable and would never happen. Um, so yeah. And I think, I think the cozy stuff is really interesting. I think when I saw the cozy fantasy stuff, I thought I'd really love it, but actually I realized as a reader, I do need some sort of like plot threat. What did, what what did you, did you read legends and lotto's?
00:17:15
Speaker
I think it was Legends and Lattes, to be honest. How did you know? it It was the one, right? It was the Thursday Motor Club was like the crime one and then Legends and Lattes was the fantasy one. Yeah, I think it was. And I just felt like I love this world. Like I really, to be in the world of like these different creatures. And I think I love the idea of like being it being an everyday thing where you're with these creatures and you just go to the coffee shop and it's run by, you know,
00:17:43
Speaker
but it just didn't quite work for me. But there's readers out there for everything. What's so interesting about that is I had Travis on the podcast at the end of last year, and he was talking about the kind of... but when he When he pitches Legends and Lattos to you you, unless you knew it was fantasy, he essentially pitches it as just like about someone who used to have a violent past who decides they want to pack it all up and start a coffee shop. Which is which is incredible. And I...
00:18:13
Speaker
It's what you want and I read it and enjoyed it. I just ah just think it's it's interesting as a reader and as an agent, you sort of go around each genre and pick up what's new and you you really do get a sense of your own taste as well. And that's yeah that's why it all works because there's readers out there for everything. as age And that's where it starts. And then, okay, there's an agent out there for everything. And then there's the editors that's
Passion for Books and Industry Culture
00:18:37
Speaker
specific. So it's it's it works really well.
00:18:42
Speaker
yeah and Yeah. So that as what that that kind of fantasy, because that Travis started independently publishing. And then romanticy also, they these genres that like you described, because they're both, you know, Legends Lattes was driven by readers. And then romanticy as a genre, like you say, is being has been totally piloted by readers and editors have had to kind of adapt to that.
00:19:08
Speaker
Both of them work really well in the self-publishing sort of format, and a lot of people you know that I've spoken to on this podcast, met a lot of them are either self-publishing or ah started off self-publishing, have moved into traditional publishing.
00:19:25
Speaker
Do you think that is quite genre specific? Do you think something, like if horror romance, horror sorry, horror romance, if romance picks up and that's the next big thing, do you think that also is going to fit into that kind of successful self-publishing space or do you think that's one of those genres that kind of works better traditional?
00:19:47
Speaker
No, i think I think it does work. I think all the while you've got these readers who don't put down their kindles and go to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. I think it's incredible. And there's loads of there's there's loads of ways to have your book published and through an agent is just one of them. And it comes with its own pros and cons and for a traditional publisher is one of them. And it it and as with self publishing, it comes with its own pros and cons. I love that.
00:20:14
Speaker
writers are getting their books directly out there and readers are seeing them, it works. I think actually I think it does work across genre because if you look at those sort of book toky romances that are just straight up romance with the tropes, you know, the enemies, the lovers, friends, to lovers, all those things, lots of them were self published as well in the last couple of years and have now become more traditional published. So I do think that's the way it can go because people are so much more aware of firstly as a writer that you can do this and secondly as a reader not to be put off by the fact that it doesn't come through a traditional publisher. Readers don't really care if it's what they want to read they're going to read it.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, that they used to be much more of a stigma, which I think has been sort of just weathered out over time. Yeah. Yeah. Do do agents nowadays, are you guys looking at self-published authors who have like found success and are you sort of reaching out to them? I think I haven't done it, but I think agents are doing it. And I think the reason I haven't done it mainly is maybe to your point that it's not really happening in the genre as I'm looking for. Right. And I think we, as agents, the way I do it is I do a lot of research as a reader. And the fact is, I do a lot of reading for pleasure, as well as my work reading. So I'll be you know, on book talk and on my Kindle as much as the next reader. And if I see something that's like, huh, what's this or an obvious I think, with the market in my head with the industry in my head, what do I want to work on next?
00:21:55
Speaker
So yeah, if you see this book that's flying and you can't, you see it everywhere and yeah, then you look at the author and naturally I'd be like, who's she represented by? And you see that she's not, then yeah, I can imagine I would approach that person.
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because it does seem like and becoming more of a established career route now is you find success in self-publishing and then you either find an agent or ah an editor reaches out to you and then like that's a new kind of career path that's kind of ah become more popular in the last few years, I think.
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, and it works. It does work. But I've also seen self-published authors turn that down because there's, as I say, there's pros and cons on both sides. And one of the pros of self-publishing is you have all the control and yeah you know all of the money you make is entirely yours. And there's not these other systems these other financial systems set up.
00:22:55
Speaker
and But on the other hand, you have to do all the work yourself. And there's no team behind you. And the access you have to retailers and things like that is different. So it's it is definitely a route. But as I say, there are so many routes. I mean, yeah, self published is just one of them. You have authors who were published for three books, maybe 10 years ago, and then they were dropped, and then they come back and they work with an agent or not with an agent. So there's there's so many different ways of doing it. No journey to publishing is the same. Yes, exactly. um That is ah becomes more and more apparent the more people you speak to just in and around publishing. And like not just for authors, like for like agents like yourself or like editors or you know whatever it may be. it's ah it's ah It's a very human industry and there's no like set paths in the way. That's the thing as well. And no matter what, I mean, we are doing business, yes, on this side.
00:23:55
Speaker
It's my job, agenting comes with lots of other things that aren't just reading. and But ultimately, all of us, editors, agents, writers, all of us are just book lovers. And book lovers generally are very kind and happy and just want to talk about
Jade's Choice and Views on Writing
00:24:13
Speaker
books. So it does make quite a nice industry.
00:24:16
Speaker
Yes, yeah generally, I would agree with that. and Before we head over to the desert island, I just wanted to ask, there's always a fun question to ask agents, is um have you or would you ever want to write and perhaps publish some writing of your own?
00:24:33
Speaker
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I am not a writer. I'm not. i I feel like when I'm brainstorming a book with an author, I have so many ideas. And I think the the thing that I could bring to the table is here's what editors are looking for. Here's what I think the market's going, those things. But when it comes to actually sitting down and writing an 80,000-word manuscript, I couldn't. I always say when I do edits for a writer,
00:25:03
Speaker
I'm, if I'm doing a markup or something, I caveat everything with, I've attempted to write a line I think could go here. Please disregard it. Please rewrite it. You're the writer I'm not, because some of them are bad. Yeah. Yeah. naal It's it's an entirely different skill to to to be like, oh, this, I can identify where the issues are, but I do not want to offer solutions at this time. Yeah. Like I couldn't, I think this scene should look like this, but usually it's like,
00:25:32
Speaker
my in my way of writing the scene is like, he says this, then she says this. And then it's like, make this better. Yeah. Do the writing part for me. I'm just telling you, you know, yeah where I found an issue. Yeah. Okay, amazing. um So absolutely not. You do not want to write. you Definitely not. I mean, I don't see that changing, but if in five years suddenly I'm a published author, then don't, you know, don't come for me.
00:25:59
Speaker
We'll see, we'll see. So that brings us to the point where I ask you, ah Jade, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be? OK, I told myself I'm going to go like with my initial instinct on this. And it is Dracula. Nice. Because every single time I read that book and it's many, many times, I'm always entertained by it and scared and all the things you want. It's nice and long.
00:26:28
Speaker
um Yeah, I think that's my answer. Nice. I mean, it's a classic. It's one of those like all timers. It's been remade, remixed, retold a million different times in a million different ways. I have like five editions of it on my bookshelf. Wow. So I feel like if I didn't say it, people would listen to this and be like, Jade, you've made Dracula your entire personality. How could you not pick that?
00:26:55
Speaker
Okay. and And very telling for now for people wanting to query you. And so think about that. Just think about the vampire, the Dracula stuff. Yeah.
Vampire Stories and Querying Process
00:27:05
Speaker
I mean, I've had on my wish list for so long, give me sort of modern day Dracula retelling, sort of like interview with a vampire meets American psycho, sort of imagine what Carlisle Cullen is doing now.
00:27:21
Speaker
I just want something like that so much or a new take on Buffy and things like that. So I think horror mances for me. Yes. American Psycho crossed with something vampire sounds great. I would I would be there for that. I'll say it's like a female um American like American Psycho figure and she's a vampire. Obviously, there's got to be more to it. And that's where the writer comes in. But yeah, that's what I want.
00:27:48
Speaker
Oh, that's very cool. Do you keep up with um all the sort of vampire iterations and things like have you seen the new Nosferatu movie and stuff? I'm actually going next week to see it with my mum. My mum and I both love Dracula. She's the first person who showed me Dracula ah and introduced me to the um Gary Oldman oh yeah yeah yeah a classic.
00:28:12
Speaker
So yeah, I'm going to see that soon. Have you seen it? I've not seen it yet. My friends have seen it and they loved it. yeah are exactly I'm not so much on the horror side of things. I'm much more of a wuss. No, honestly, it's really scary. The first time I would read Dracula properly, I think I was about 17. I was on a train on my own and it was dark outside. And I was reading the scene where yeah Jonathan is on the way to Dracula's castle.
00:28:43
Speaker
And it's not even, the scary stuff hasn't even happened yet, but I had to close the book and wait till I got off the train. So that's how you know. A lot of the time it's the the the actual event, the scary event is not as ah as as terrifying as the anticipation and the build up towards it.
00:29:02
Speaker
Exactly. It's definitely the build up. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. ah Very cool choice. I like that. And I also think it's very, very useful for people trying to get a glimpse into who you are as ah as a person and as an agent. Yeah, it's on brand. Exactly. Coming up.
00:29:18
Speaker
we're going to get into a bit more about querying and how you approach that, as well as looking at looking into each part of querying and like what DA does for that kind of process. ah But that will all be in the extended episode available on Patreon.
00:29:36
Speaker
That brings us to the end
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:29:38
Speaker
of the episode. Thank you so much, Jade. It's been awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I've loved it. It's been so good hearing about you know how you got into where you are now and and everything that you you're working with and how you ah how you approach the job. And hopefully yeah everyone listening will will be able to get a lot of useful insights from this. You're great, but I hope so.
00:29:57
Speaker
And for anyone listening, if you do want to keep up with what Jade is doing, you can find her on Twitter at jadecav underscore or on Instagram at jade underscore caverna underscore agent. And if you are thinking of querying Jade or any of the agents over at Darlie Anderson, head over to the website. You'll find everything you need on the submissions page. To support this podcast, like, follow, and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and other tropes. Thanks again, Jade. And thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.