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#216 - Alex Hay
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Historical fiction author, Alex Hay joins us this week to chat about the differences with plotting a heist versus a con, his time on the Curtis Brown writing course and landing his agent through the Caledonia Prize.
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Transcript
Understanding Reader Expectations
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer is there. So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Introducing Alex Hay
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by a historical fiction author, an alumni of the Curtis Brown Write Your Novel course and winner of the Caledonia Novel Award 2022.
00:00:28
Speaker
It's Alex Hay. Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. No, great to have you on ah Let's jump right in starting with your new book, the second novel, The Queen of Fives, which came out just a few weeks ago. Tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:43
Speaker
ah With great pleasure.
The Queen of Fives: A Historical Con
00:00:44
Speaker
So The Queen of Fives is a historical con um and it's set in the summer of 1898, telling the story of Quinn LeBlanc, who is London's premier conwoman.
00:00:57
Speaker
and also known as the legendary Queen of Fives, famed for her ability to lift a man's fortune with five moves in five days. But times are tight and Quinn is about to embark on her most audacious scheme yet, infiltrating the wealthiest family in Barclay Square.
00:01:14
Speaker
But as she begins to enter their mysterious orbit, she starts to realise that she may not be the only person playing a game of grand deception. So think big houses, bad families and all the deliciously dark, glittery Victorian, high Gothic gloss that I adore with a spirit of a Hussle-esque con behind it.
Challenges of Writing Heists and Cons
00:01:39
Speaker
So it's theyre very much following in in the the wake of your first novel, The Housekeepers, more kind of historical heisty shenanigans. Shenanigans all the way. Yeah, that is the word for it, 100%. Is writing heists this sort of historical Ocean's Eleven kind of vibe? Is that very much your wheelhouse? Is that what you love in literature?
00:02:00
Speaker
Well, that's a good question. i i think there's two things going on here. So a heist plot or a con plot are a real gift to a writer from a structure and a storytelling perspective. And i I really love the quite clear shape, particularly of a heist, actually, with very clear movements.
00:02:20
Speaker
gather your team, you set your plan, you fling obstacles at the gang along the way, and you have, I think, permission to try and pull off and a conclusion full of surprises and zest and shenanigans to your heart's content. And that's all really appealing to me. and And those crime caper archetypes and are quite satisfying to try and plot and put together. Bit head scratchy to try and plot as well, but and they they lend to you so much from a writing perspective.
00:02:55
Speaker
i think what i found in my first book what was really enjoyable was trying to glue that crime archetype onto um an historical setting um and in my first book that was about um really playing with high edwardian Park Lane glamour.
00:03:16
Speaker
And in my second, it's about writing something of my own love letter to a slightly earlier period, perhaps sort of seven years backwards, um and playing with more of the traits of late 19th century sensation fiction.
00:03:31
Speaker
and So really, for me, it's about trying glue all those things together, setting and plot, and then to try and create a story world that feels really fun to play in.
00:03:41
Speaker
um And i've I've loved writing both these books. and and And in a way, they sort of feel like twins and sharing some of those those those tones and themes, as you say.
Creating Joyful Narratives
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah. And yeah I mean, I think just based on the kind of vibe of the books, you can tell that it was fun to write them because they're like fun books inherently.
00:03:58
Speaker
I agree with that. And I think it's, you know, interestingly for me, i have lots of books sitting in drawers um that I sent out to agents or never really got over the line. And they were all quite dour and gloomy.
00:04:12
Speaker
um And I think the fun element was what I was really looking for when I first started writing The Housekeeper, something that would just feel... a bit more joyous to me um and would give me the chance to have jokes um and surprises um and an eccentric cast which which are all things i love to read as well so um yeah finding finding that sort of um uplifting side of the writing process really switched something on for me and so yeah it's been a joy to write book too as well in the same vein
00:04:44
Speaker
Okay. And you mentioned, I don't know if this is, is is a heist plot and a con plot, are they and they separate things or is it sort of two ways of describing a similar style?
00:04:55
Speaker
I think they're quite separate things. Okay. So heists, I think, are quite firmly structured. i think the archetype is quite well established.
00:05:05
Speaker
I think cons are, um by the nature of dealing in a protagonist who's shape-shifting and double-dealing and being deceitful around every corner, and I think you have a bit more room to work out what your own long corner is going to look like. and There are some you know fantastic...
00:05:24
Speaker
and traditions around the con. So the sort of sense of there being sequential moves that a con artist will move through um to best ensnare their mark. and And I absolutely played with some of those tropes when writing The Queen of Fives.
00:05:40
Speaker
trying to take some of those classic con moves where knot your targets and separate them from all who love them and could protect them from the fraud that's about to be pounced upon them. and But I tried to sort wrap a bit of a high Victorian Gothic gloss around all of that.
00:05:57
Speaker
and But at the same time, I think a con plot, certainly in in my book, I discovered it it's a much more shifty thing and because you're dealing probably more in twists and surprises and and also essentially quite tricky question for a writer, which is the end of the day, you're con artist.
00:06:18
Speaker
it is fraud that they're carrying out. It's not the most um a moral um pathway for a character. And so finding a way for you as the author to care about what they're doing and understand what their code of conduct looks like and and why they're on this journey and actually took more attention head scratching than I expected.
00:06:39
Speaker
And and i think that I think that's where a con story is is is tricky because you're really dealing in that sort of anti-hero, anti-heroine space. And you have to you have to think quite carefully about who are they targeting, why, and how's that payoff going to feel satisfying and and and not sort of thin to the reader. So so it's a tricky it's a tricky plot structure, but yeah, one I love to play with.
00:06:59
Speaker
Okay. Is it important in that kind of situation when you're sort of trying to find a way to get the reader on side with with the protagonist that you make the target of the con unlikable in some way?
00:07:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really key. And and for me, and this is a story about a con woman at the top of her game operating in late Victorian London, and who runs her swindler's emporium, the chateau, in and the streets of Spitalfields.
Moral Codes in Cons
00:07:32
Speaker
And effectively, what I loved doing was designing the history of that household and working out what's the rulebook that guides each of Quinn's cons, each of her games. What are the what are those moves?
00:07:47
Speaker
And what's the moral code that that household has set up over the century that it's been in operation to justify its actions to itself? And one of the key things it's done is to say it's only allowed to mark noblemen or wealthy men who are deemed corrupt by the chateau standards.
00:08:08
Speaker
And that's quite satisfying because, of course, then you're you're operating in quite a morally grey space. Who who decides who's bad? um and And do the ends justify the means and when the household is going after them?
00:08:19
Speaker
And I think that's that's one of the questions that the characters start to wrestle with in this book. And definitely one of the ones that that I really enjoyed so and sort of plotting and pondering when putting the book together.
00:08:31
Speaker
Oh, okay, right. A bit sort of more nuanced Robin Hood sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. A nuanced Robin Hood is a perfect way to put it, actually. And there's lots of Robin Hood Easter eggs this. Lots of people charging around in Lincoln Green and thinking about, you know, what does the neighbourhood around me need? And when we score these things,
00:08:52
Speaker
cash sums, who are they going to and what what's going to be better as a result of of the criminality that we're that we're pushing forwards. um And some of the answers that you know your characters will come up with quite glib and they're not they're not necessarily probing themselves or their own moral code very deeply. and And that was one of the joys of this book was was once that household starts to think about why are we doing this?
00:09:15
Speaker
Is it worth it? And indeed, the people we're marking, do they have their own game of it? And are we perhaps being swindled as much as the ones we're swindling? and Then you're suddenly sort of turning that whole moral setup on its head. And that was really delicious and stuff to play with for me.
Historical Inspirations
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I can tell that you're very invested and interested in the sort of the history of it and the the reality of that history. And like you said, this you this novel and then your previous novel, they're sort of seven years apart, both at the turn of the 20th century.
00:09:50
Speaker
What is it about that period that that like really fascinates you? Well, I think there's something about writing the late 19th century and early 20th century, um which gives you quite a lot to play with. And one part of that is...
00:10:10
Speaker
You've got in the rear view mirror all the high Victorian um atmosphere and setting um that you could ask for. And for someone who's writing historical fiction and historical crime, and that's all really, really lovely stuff to be playing with.
00:10:28
Speaker
um And for me, the sensation fiction of late 19th century, say, foggy streets, gaslight, flickering, and themes of degeneracy and doubleness and duality and repressed desire.
00:10:42
Speaker
All of that Victorian stuff felt really perfect to me for a con. But then at the same time, you have with the turn of the century, these glimpses of modernity and this sense actually that um the 20th century is roaring into view.
00:11:01
Speaker
um and you you sort of see it in photography and accounts of the period, you set the sense that the motor car is just around the corner. We know, of course, that the Great War is looming, even though your characters don't.
00:11:13
Speaker
And I think what that gives you is this sense of quite an enterprising, forward-looking, anxious time that actually has lots of resonance and for a modern day author or reader.
00:11:25
Speaker
And I like that interplay between that sort of old world um and the sense of something new and scrappy and uncertain coming up around
Balancing Historical Accuracy
00:11:33
Speaker
the corner. So lots, I think, tonally to play with if you're writing and the kind of books I'm writing.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, sort of on the precipice of ah so long ago that it's, you know, it feels old timey, but also not so long ago that you're like, well, you know, they'd have some technologies that we do have today.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah, exactly that. And also things like dialogue um and, you know, the tone of the book. I'm really influenced, actually, by um late 19th century, early 20th century fiction.
00:12:05
Speaker
um You know, books that that you can just feel instantly in the way the characters talk to one another, that there's just something that feels very contemporary and very present.
00:12:17
Speaker
and very alive. And actually, this is not, it's not stiff dialogue. It's not mannered. There are certain themes in that fiction of the time that that might be shimmering a little further beneath the surface than we could get away with today.
00:12:31
Speaker
yeah but there's ah there's a sense of and realness um about the fiction of that period ah that I ah try and sort of absorb or I suppose have absorbed a little bit by osmosis over the years through reading and and so that's that's all quite fun to to play with because it does surprise a reader sometimes I know in in the housekeepers those characters, and if they need to get from point A to point B, sometimes the most efficient way to do it is to get the tube.
00:12:59
Speaker
And, yeah you know, it will surprise people. So you've got to be quite selective, I think, about the the details that you're picking that don't jolt yourself or the reader out of the story because they feel um anachronistic in the wrong way. You've got to try and get the tone right and the voices that the characters write.
00:13:14
Speaker
um But equally, I quite enjoy playing with those little details that might and surprise a reader or prompt ah a reader to think, oh, was that really new was that there in 1898 or 1985? And if it is, it's quite satisfying to to make sure it's in there.
00:13:29
Speaker
um so yeah London feel feels and authentic, but also and relevant. Yeah, it's also interesting because when I think of most heist, especially like heist movies, um most of them are set contemporary or in and and the modern time. So I imagine it ah it's quite fun to do this kind of story without phones or video cameras and things like that.
00:13:57
Speaker
mean, it's totally helpful, first all, because it can keep people on you know the opposite side of the city with no idea of what's going on and and allows you to have um plenty of confusion and skullduggery along the way. yeah um But yeah, it is a joy to to write that slightly older world, but with as much zest as you can muster, um because its it it it does it does allow you to play with some of the eccentricity of the past. You know, in The Housekeepers, I love doing things like um trying to research, okay, I've got an entire Park Lane mansion load of guests and stuffed inside this house, which we're trying to rob. How am I going to get them all outside of a house in a couple of minutes?
00:14:42
Speaker
How can i find an invention from the period that would simulate a fire and you start to go looking for these and pretty zany contraptions um that Victorians would come up with to and simulate cigarette smoke or create huge blooming billowing masses of fog inside their drawing rooms and and you realise oh there's some just lovely theatrical stuff in in the historical record that I can lift and use and borrow and adulterate slightly for my own plot and And you just wouldn't have that if it was set in the nineties, you'd have other brilliant, wonderful stuff, but yeah, and yeah that's part of the joy of of trying to to play with all these details.
00:15:21
Speaker
Okay.
Evolving Writing Process
00:15:22
Speaker
So obviously when we're talking about historical fiction, you know, ah probably of all the genres, it's the one that often has the the most significant research element to it.
00:15:32
Speaker
Um, do you, does your research happen? Like, do you do it all before you start writing or is it kind of like just a throughout you're always researching something new? That's a really good question. I mean, I'm always picking up research questions as I go. And I'm i'm guessing that's probably common for most people who write in this period or in historical fiction generally.
00:15:53
Speaker
For me, books typically begin with setting and then a plot structure that i want to play with. And the first step is always trying to glue those two things together. And that was definitely true for The Queen of Five. So I knew I wanted...
00:16:09
Speaker
to having loved writing a heist, I wanted to try another classic caper archetype. So I wanted to try a con, but I wanted to do a setting that felt a little bit earlier than my first book. And I wanted to play with, as I was saying before, um some of those foggy, gaslit London streets of sensation fiction lore.
00:16:30
Speaker
So the first job for me was trying to do quite practical research on who were some of the real life 19th century fraudsters in operation at that time. What were their methods?
00:16:41
Speaker
How did they practically lift fortunes from people? How did they or did they get away with it? and and And that was all sort of information that was was new to me. But then there's other stuff, which I suppose comes much more organically over the years, which is all the reading, both fiction and nonfiction, that you do, that that gives you lots of um details that have lodged in the back of your mind and you're drawing touring on sort of almost unexpectedly as you write.
00:17:08
Speaker
um and and And, of course, then there's a job to do once you've got a draft in hand to go back and check that you weren't and completely off the mark and dating things completely erroneously or putting stuff in the wrong place at the wrong time.
00:17:20
Speaker
Because I think there's a code with historical fiction, which is either... you are making a pact with the reader that every single thing they read is based as far as possible on fact, from a sort of practical perspective, and down to the weather, for example, the characters in your story are moving through a world that's that's rendered as accurate as it could have been if you had been there at the time.
00:17:44
Speaker
And the imaginative terrain of the book is then you know being made up. But the the framework of the world is is really, really solid. And then there's another side of things, which is where you, I think, try to take the tone and spirit and voice of the world, but you're giving yourself liberty to change some of those textual details, like the weather or the date of certain events.
00:18:03
Speaker
and And you're moving stuff around in the service of your plot. But you're hopefully trying to stay truthful to the kind of feel of what it would sound and feel like so that a reader is not going to feel jolted jolted out of things too much. And I'm definitely in that second camp.
00:18:20
Speaker
and And I've had really interesting discussions, actually, with other the historical fiction authors about which side of the divide they sit on. And I think what I've noticed is everybody really cares about making sure that the world feels truthful and accurate and the story feels immersive to the reader. And, you know, readers are really smart and and a lot of them will know this period and incredibly well and will even know, you know, masses of details that you haven't come across.
00:18:45
Speaker
So you want to be really selective and thoughtful about what you're including or excluding so that it's all just going to feel entertaining and enjoyable and and and and not um anachronistic in the wrong way to a reader. But that's really subjective. And it's hard to work out what a reader is going to feel about it until you get the book out there.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah. And it sounds like you are very focused on the details. And I think, did you mention earlier that you are someone, that a writer that plans everything out before you start writing it?
00:19:14
Speaker
Well, I have gone on a bit of a journey on that scale. my first book, Housekeepers, I planned to within an inch of its life. And the reason for that was that i and i really loved the idea and I just did not want to let myself down. And so I planned in Excel, and scene by scene, chapter by chapter, in excruciating detail. And actually, I went back to that spreadsheet recently and I looked at it and the cells, I mean, they're huge. There's thousands and thousands of words on that spreadsheet. So actually, think what I did was, in hindsight, I don't think I did plan. I think I basically...
00:19:49
Speaker
flew by the seat of my pants but in excel which is the weirdest and most grim way to write book in the world anyway however i got there managed to get my first draft down happy days and when i came to start book two i thought well this is my process now i plan everything out really really know where i'm going and then joy of joys i can dive into the first draft and i'll sail through and this time that process totally fell apart for me so the plan just felt really lifeless crowded, confusing, the characters didn't work on the page.
00:20:20
Speaker
and And I sort of tried, got to about 10,000 words, axed it, tried again, got to about 20,000 words, axed it, and then started having a panic and became um a a sort of full-blown discovery writer. Went back to page one and just started writing scene by scene, following the characters, keeping that sort of core set of ideas in mind.
00:20:42
Speaker
It's a con. It's in this particular context Victorian era. I have my protagonist, but I'm going to let her find, mark her target and encounter complications along the way.
00:20:56
Speaker
And it was a really freeing process to try and write a book filled with surprises in that quite surprising fashion. And i think what it gave me was a lot of really organic and stuff that actually lifted the book off for me and gave it the kind of and life I was after.
00:21:15
Speaker
But it also meant the first draft of that book was an absolute bonfire. It was complete disaster. So the editing was completely exhausting um because I had to wrangle all of that material into a shape that would feel coherent for the reader. So who knows what my process is now, David. I think I'm somewhere in between the two, but I'll just have to let pray that i can I can work it out.
00:21:37
Speaker
and by time of That's so interesting because most of the time, my experience with people is on their debut novel, they discover it and then they become planners um after they've been through publishing because of like timeline constraints and things. Yeah. And I hear that a lot as well.
00:21:57
Speaker
um You know, the sort of the need for efficiency that you're going to have to sort of plan where you're going. and And just being really honest about it, I think where I've got to is a place where I, my third book, I sort of put together a synopsis for the story. Okay. That sort of spread over a few pages um that gave key beats, key reveals, and gave me a sense of what the overarching architecture of the book would be.
00:22:23
Speaker
and And then I'm writing the first draft with that in mind and sort of um perhaps noting to myself a couple of chapters ahead each time, like this is going to happen, this is going to happen, this is going to happen.
00:22:34
Speaker
But I don't have that full outline. And the reason for it for me is, I actually found from an efficiency perspective, I just lost so much time planning because I thought I had to plan and the planning would save me time that there were weeks and weeks going by where I was trying to put this story together that just wasn't, wasn't going to work on the page. And the quickest and most efficient thing to do was get in there, see how everybody was, was feeling, um and then try and and try and be led by character in that way. So I think at the end of the day, so every book is its own beast.
00:23:04
Speaker
You've got to find whatever process is going to just get you, get you to the end. That's a terrifying first draft. Yeah. Well, I imagine it's almost reflective of the change of genre with your first, these these first two novels, because your first novel was a heist, which I think in essence is always going to be meticulously planned because the characters will have meticulously planned the heist.
00:23:26
Speaker
Whereas a con is much more... you You have a vague idea of what's going to happen, but but you know the the the con person is always going to have to adapt on the fly to whatever new situation comes to them. So it's almost indicative of the difference in the genres of your two novels, the way you wrote them.
00:23:42
Speaker
Why didn't I just talk to you, Jamie, in September 2020, was literally having breakdown? I was like, what you do? I've got no skill for this. Yeah, you're right. They're different plot structures, and I totally found that as well.
00:23:59
Speaker
and that cons, and I was sort of alluding to this earlier, it's up to you, isn't it, how you want to shape it? There's there's much more room there to um be a bit devious and let your characters be a bit devious too, but therein lies both the joy and the terror of putting that story together. But, you know, I'm really, really happy that I have now, I can officially say i have been a panther, which is a very satisfying thing to have done. So, you know, who knows if I'll stay in that mould or not, but we shall say...
00:24:27
Speaker
I think that that's a good way to do is it. you've done You've kind of done both. You've tried both and now you can find what works best for you somewhere in the middle of of that kind of journey. Yeah. And I think also, i don't know if other writers are like this, but I am quite faddy about processes. And someone once said this to me at work. They went, Alex, you're very faddy. You'll kind of go for whatever framework you think is going to be best suit you at that time. And then as soon as you're bored with it, you can move on to something else. And I i thought...
00:24:53
Speaker
and That is true, actually. and But unfortunately, with writing books, you don't have your annual appraisal in the same way. You just have to try and tell yourself whether you're doing a effective work and using effective methods to get there.
00:25:03
Speaker
But i think I think what you just said is spot on. It's about just you trying to find your way of doing things. And I used to spend so much time just reading blogs and listening to podcasts and trying to you know, find the perfect save the cat meets X meets Y process that would that would work and would give me a book that I felt was super saleable. Because that was my goal. i really, really wanted to get published. I really wanted it. And I thought, if I find the right process, I can make it happen.
00:25:34
Speaker
And actually, it is much more organic than that. You just keep coming back to your own instinct as a reader. And the types of stories that you love to read will will end up being the types of stories you love to tell. And each book is different.
00:25:44
Speaker
And you just have to do whatever you can to find how to make that book work. and And that's a sort of slightly scarier, but also much more freeing way to look at things that, you know, book three will have its own process and book four and book five and book six will all be completely different beasts. So, you know, strap in, off we go, and pray for the best.
00:26:04
Speaker
yeah yeah but like all crafts the more you practice it and kind of the more different approaches you try you'll assimilate the best parts of those for you so that the next time you do it you know even if you're doing a different fad this week uh you'll have the memory of those other things that you've done and those will seep into like you'll just get better with with time and the more you practice yes This is very reaffirming, this conversation. Thank you very much. I'm going to take that. now That's great. that That's what the podcast is all
Desert Island Book Choices
00:26:32
Speaker
about. um We are at the halfway mark, which which is where I ship you off and ask you, Alex, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book,
00:26:44
Speaker
Which book do you hope that it would be? So I knew you going to ask this, and this is an insight into my thinking process, but I just found it so difficult, overcomplicating it massively, because I was like, am I going to come off the desert island? How long will I be there?
00:26:56
Speaker
You know, what are the stakes in this situation? So my rambling answer to you would be... Let's assume that I'm not going to be on the Dead Island forever. I just need something that's going to you know entertain me until and the the rescue. This is the half glass full way of looking at things. Rescue is definitely going to happen.
00:27:13
Speaker
So I just need a good read in the meantime. So I think I probably want to go for something, maybe a reread, something I haven't read for a long time. So i I've forgotten the twists and turns of the plot. But I can count on to feel heartwarming and um gripping. And it also has to be nice and long.
00:27:28
Speaker
So I thinking possibly something like John Irving's A Prayer for Owen Meany. I remember reading that in a huge gulp. I don't know, maybe 20 years ago, and and just absolutely loving it. that was the first thing that sprang to mind. I thought that would be a good, good GC read.
00:27:44
Speaker
and But if I'm going to have to be on the island forever, and I need to really look deep into my soul and understand the nature of the human condition, then I suppose I will have to take Middlemarch. So it really depends on you, Joby. If Rescue is a foot, then it's Prev Romini. If I'm there forever, then George Eliot's going to have to carry me through.
00:28:02
Speaker
Okay, okay. Well, i both those answers are acceptable given various conditions. I like to ask the question and then see how people approach it. Like I give no rules or or strict, you know, things in like, this is how long you're going to be there.
00:28:16
Speaker
And everyone tackles it in different ways. So I like that. I like that you... It's all the things in the process. Yeah. It's like an exam paper, isn't it? It's like, show you're working. You may get them out. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I want to see you're working. Really, that's what's in it for me. is and But that's great. Yeah. A nice, a diverse choice. You've got ah fun and light and intense.
00:28:36
Speaker
Exactly. Me. Yeah.
Conclusion and Social Media
00:28:40
Speaker
um Next up, I'd love to get into a bit more about the publishing side of things and chat about Alex's agent, as well as experiences working with headline review. And that will all be in the extended episode available on Patreon. I leave and hope every time it's even better position than it had when I came in.
00:29:02
Speaker
That's the hope. Yeah. yeah yeah um Awesome. Well, ah we are um at the end of the episode and um yeah, nothing to say, but, but thank you so much for, for coming on. It's been awesome chatting with you and hearing all about your, your writing and and publishing adventures.
00:29:17
Speaker
um Thank you. They've been adventures indeed. Lovely to be here. And and I really appreciate you having me. Thanks so much, Jamie. For everyone listening, the Queen of Fives is out right now in all the usual places. And if you want to keep up with what Alex is doing, you can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at AlexHayBooks or head over to his website, AlexHayBooks.com.
00:29:36
Speaker
the but podcast To so so support support the podcast, like, follow and subscribe, ah join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again to Alex and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.