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#220 - Sarah Harman
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Contemporary fiction writer, Sarah Harman is here to chat about her debut novel, which she describes as a satirical thriller. Sarah shares the details about the nine way auction the book ended up in the UK as well as another auction in the US and a bidding war for the TV rights which were eventually secured by the team behind Disney FX's 'The Bear'.
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Transcript
The Role of Writing and Plot Holes in Storytelling
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of it's kind of a gamble.
Introducing Sarah Harmon and Her Debut Novel
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. Today I am joined by a former broadcast journalist and news anchor whose debut novel, All the Other Mothers Hate Me, will be out by the time this airs.
00:00:27
Speaker
It's Sarah Harmon. Hello. Hi, Jamie. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for coming on. Let's get right in with your debut novel, All the Other Mothers Hate Me.
00:00:39
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about it. Okay. So I always like to start out by saying this is not a memoir. The Other Mothers, as far as I'm aware, are like totally neutral on me as a person.
00:00:52
Speaker
um All the Other Mothers Hate Me is what I'm calling a satirical thriller It's about a washed up girl band singer named Florence Grimes, who has spent the last decade sort of slumming around London, spending her ever dwindling royalty checks on elaborate nail art and picking petty fights with the other moms at the gates of her son's posh private school until the day her 10 year old son's class bully mysteriously vanishes on a school trip.
Humor vs. Darkness in 'All the Other Mothers Hate Me'
00:01:23
Speaker
And Florence has no choice but to try and find out what happened to this missing boy because danta dada her own son is rapidly becoming the main suspect in his disappearance.
00:01:35
Speaker
is it I mean, that's intense, an intense setup ah to the whole thing. It's an intense setup, but it's not an intense book. like okay I would say tonally, this is not like a book where dark things happen to children. That was important to me like as a parent.
00:01:50
Speaker
I don't want to read about bad things happening to kids in my free time. This is a fun book. Okay. So it's sort of dark humor, but like emphasis on the humor and like yeah that part of it.
00:02:03
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. You prefaced this all by saying, not a memoir.
UK School Gate Dynamics and Social Reflections
00:02:08
Speaker
i appreciate that. This is fiction, just so everyone's clear. But... um Obviously, you know you are a mother and I saw that you recently wrote an article for the Sunday Times about surviving the school gate.
00:02:21
Speaker
So yeah whilst this is ah grandiose fiction, yeah I would imagine there is quite a lot of inspiration from your own experiences as a mother and like having a child at school and that kind of social dynamic.
00:02:35
Speaker
I mean, if I'm being honest, it's less than you would think. My my son was really little when i he wasn't at school when i wrote this book. and I've never been in a girl band.
00:02:46
Speaker
my son has never been suspected of a heinous crime against a classmate. um So, yeah, i I wish I could tell you like, oh, this one mom at the school gates was mean to me and I sat down wrote this sassy novel.
00:03:01
Speaker
But that's not really what happened. It's mostly made up, I think, like most novels. I suppose what is what what I have taken from my life is the main character is an American living in West London. And
Friendship and Mystery in the Novel
00:03:16
Speaker
that's also my own experience. And so was able to bring in some of those like outsider observations about what makes the British school gate set up unique. You know, Americans, unless you live in like New York, we don't really do that. You, you pick your kids up from school in your car. So you go through like kind of a ah drop off or pickup line, especially for kids who are like this age, like in the book, like 10. Um,
00:03:40
Speaker
um so it's It's quite a unique setup, I find, in in the UK where you're dropping your kids off on foot and like having a chat with the other parents. and it It does lead to some interesting social dynamics, but um I didn't have much experience with that.
00:03:56
Speaker
when I started writing the novel. I hope it still resonates, even though I made it up. Yeah. But that's interesting because it's, yeah, obviously in the UK, that's a very common thing is, and not just dropping off. It's, uh, when you pick up a lot of the time, the parents will be waiting for their child to kind of come to the point where they're being picked up. So there is a lot of,
00:04:16
Speaker
that yeah that's so interesting I guess do you think part of this obviously it fantasy fiction kind of well it's not fantasy but it's fiction but do you think part of this whilst not your own experience is uh your kind of own worries and concerns about what it's going to be like to some degree when your child is that age and you are going to have to do this no I'm not worried about any of this happening to my kids like it's a so just like maybe to summarize like it's about a wealthy child who goes missing from a school field trip, and then a very ideologically motivated sort of awkward kid
00:04:53
Speaker
who becomes suspected of being involved in his disappearance. Those aren't my particular parenting concerns. I would assume that if I was concerned about those things, I'd probably be like at the psychologist's office and not spending a lot of free time writing fiction.
00:05:09
Speaker
So no. Yes, of course. ah No, I meant more the kind of like the the dynamic between the parents. Oh, you know, the real relationship in the book is like these two moms who team up and become like sleuths together and they form ah like a friendship and end up looking for this boy like the two of them sort of like a, like a Thelma and Louise situation with a slightly different ending. Um, yeah.
00:05:42
Speaker
So yeah. I mean, would I enjoy being like a mom detective at some point? Sure. Yeah. like that's how i see I see. That's, that's the direction this is going in.
00:05:55
Speaker
Amazing. um Well, I haven't read it yet, but I absolutely look forward to reading it. it sounds so It sounds brilliant. Thank you. What I'd love to talk about now, if we could go back a bit and talk about your kind of publishing adventures, the the journey that you went on with this, which is quite amazing if if my research is correct.
00:06:16
Speaker
Let's start with...
Sarah Harmon's Writing Journey and Success
00:06:17
Speaker
Um, you won the Lucy Cavendish prize, uh, with this in 2023. So that's for unpublished and unrepresented writers.
00:06:30
Speaker
How long had you been working on this novel and had you kind of queried agents or submitted to anything else before that? um No, I had not. So I started working on this novel at the beginning of 2022. I did a Faber course here in London.
00:06:46
Speaker
um It was like a write your novel course. And so I had written the first 10,000 words of it ah to get into the Faber course. novel course. So I had 10,000 words of a novel is like, i don't know, couple of chapters.
00:07:01
Speaker
yeah And I wrote most of the book during that course. And then I obviously didn't finish it. So I i finished the book around, finished the first draft in like early 2023.
00:07:14
Speaker
And then my friend from the Faber course told me about Lucy Cavendish and I was like, oh, I'll just apply to that. And you only needed 50 pages to apply to Lucy Cavendish. And I remember very specifically, it cost 12 pounds. And I was like, okay, I can afford that. That's like a couple of copies.
00:07:29
Speaker
um So I sent it off. That would have been like in the spring. and i you know I was still like refining and working on the manuscript. So by the time the Lucy Cavendish announcement came out, I think that would have been like around May, um I was nearly done, but not quite done. And suddenly you know and i hadn't queried agents. And suddenly I started getting like emails from agents being like, hey, what's this...
00:07:52
Speaker
thing you're working on. um I saw you won Lucy Cavendish, which is like such an unexpected situation to be in as a writer, because what I mean, I don't know how into it your listeners are. But like when you're an unpublished debut writer, no one wants to read your shit. Like no, no one is like, oh, that is not a thing that happens.
00:08:11
Speaker
And so you basically have to like, birth this thing and then force it on people to try and get representation. And And yeah, Lucy Cavendish like changed everything for me. So once I started getting that attention, I was like, oh my God, have to hurry up and finish this.
00:08:24
Speaker
So I did a polishing round and then ah just sent it out um because I was like, okay, I have some momentum now. And also I think you know you get to a point as a debut author where you're like, it's hard to know when to stop. like You can polish forever and it's not always making it better. like Sometimes it's just, I think, procrastinating.
00:08:44
Speaker
And so I was... so It sort of forced my hand, the Lucy Cavendish thing. and And look, it changed my life. So now if you had asked me before, I would have been like, I think most writing contests are probably a scam.
00:08:57
Speaker
But now I'm like, oh, that actually like legitimately changed my life. And it was the best $12 I ever spent. 12 pounds. am i right in thinking, as part of that prize, that there's ah there's a you win some money and then also you get a one-to-one with a literary agent?
00:09:12
Speaker
You do. Yeah. The sponsoring agent at the time was ah PFD. um Okay. And I ultimately didn't end up signing with them because at the time I just wasn't i wasn't ready. um it well i I think Lucy Cavendish was in May and I think I got representation in like July.
00:09:31
Speaker
And I was really using every day in between to like finish up. putting the final polish on. so yeah. Um, but they, I think they have changed sponsorship now, but I believe that is still part of the contest. I don't, don't quote me on that, but I think you still get that. Yeah.
00:09:49
Speaker
I think they, I could be wrong, but I think the, it's now WME. Oh my God. Of course. Yes. No. Yes, it is. It is. Who your agent is, is part of.
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. I actually, I think she might even be running. This shows you like, um, we all just have our heads up our own. Like it's all, yes, she is running it. Um, think she might be like in charge of it this year.
00:10:13
Speaker
yeah Um, so definitely apply because she's amazing, but it's, it's, I don't think it's like a guarantee of representation, but it's definitely like opened a lot of doors for me.
Finding the Right Agent and Publishing Experience
00:10:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:25
Speaker
And that's, um, for everyone listening, that's Heli Ogden is Sarah's agent. I love you, Heli. actually had one of Heli's other authors on not too long ago, Samuel Burr, who just had the fellowship Puzzle Makers come Oh, how fun.
00:10:39
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And yes, the only things I've heard about Heli have been excellent and fantastic. So... um definitely worth it like you said anyone listening if you're thinking about the lucy cavendish prize for 12 pounds it's probably gone up though because inflation's like that inflation man yeah but you know what i'll tell you what jamie like what i got out of that was not just so i didn't get my agent out of that ultimately i think it's just a coincidence that heli is now running that um But I also got like a community. and the So when when I won, there was like a I don't know what you would call it. There was like a ceremony kind of in Cambridge.
00:11:21
Speaker
And the other women who were on the shortlist were also there. And we all met and exchanged numbers. And now we have this WhatsApp group. And we like text each other. And they read my query letters. When I was querying agents, they read...
00:11:34
Speaker
um, my synopsis, like, and we meet up and have dinner in London, like once a quarter altogether, um or anyone who can make it. And that has been like such an enriching experience. So I would say like entering contests that have an in-person component, even if you don't win, they have the potential to like connect you with a community because writing can be so lonely and it's such a long haul. It's been really helpful to get advice and encouragement from those other women now,
00:12:02
Speaker
um and, and to also kind of pay it forward as some of them are, are starting to get their own deals. That's amazing that, yeah, you guys are all still in touch and meet up and, and kind of involved in each other's, uh, publishing kind of lives.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's been, it's been fantastic. ah So it was, you didn't end up signing with PFT, but, uh, you, you, you went on submission and you got, you you got a lot of attention from agents, even when you weren't necessarily looking at it, which is, which is incredible.
00:12:34
Speaker
Uh, eventually decided to sign with Heli and how long was it before? Presumably you and Heli did some edits. You worked on the the manuscript of but before you sent it out to editors.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yes. So I'm trying to think back. what the So we did, Heli had a round of notes for me and, but it wasn't, it was pretty light.
00:13:00
Speaker
I think, I think I want to say I signed with Heli in like July and we went on submission in September, think. Okay. ah so it was And as everyone listening should know, publishing shuts down in August.
00:13:15
Speaker
So it was pretty quick turnaround, to be honest. um Yeah. And it was I think it was partly a strategic decision of like, you know, agents are always like looking at which way the wind blows and whatever. But um I had spent a fair bit of time refining it And I think it was in pretty good shape. And that's probably something that I...
00:13:38
Speaker
I think that's something... So basically, i when I was doing the Faber course and when ah Lucy Cavendish happened, like agents start reaching out. They'll reach out off the back of the Faber anthology. They'll reach out off of Lucy Cavendish.
00:13:50
Speaker
And for me, it was like really important. I want to know what this is and have a clear picture of what it is before I start talking. talking to agents. And I use the analogy sometimes with friends who are in the same process of like, it'd be like if you wanted to sell your house, but you were still doing renovations. Like, would you have a real estate agent come over and be like, well, don't mind this. We're just like taking this wall out, but it's going it's going to look nice. Like, no, you would wait.
00:14:13
Speaker
You would like make it as nice as you could. you would get out your ASAP soap. You would like make it pretty. And then you would have estate agents bring people around. And it's not a perfect analogy. And I know agents don't like being referred to as estate agents, but like you're hiring them to sell something. So like, make sure your stuff is ready.
00:14:30
Speaker
And I think lots of agents are really editorial and they love to get in there and tinker, but they have a limited like amount of time and bandwidth. And you just have to be realistic about how much of that you can get as a debut author. And um so I think it is probably...
00:14:47
Speaker
I think it was to my advantage that I waited until I felt like this is really ready because we were able to go to out with it quite quickly. Yeah. So that was a pretty quick turnaround with Helly in terms of editorial. And then you, you went out with it.
00:15:01
Speaker
And I know that this was very hotly sought after by publishers. How long was it? I would imagine it was very quick to hear responses from editors.
00:15:12
Speaker
I'll be honest with you. Like, I have nothing to compare this to. I've only done this the one time that I did it. I didn't work in the industry. So I don't know. Like, I don't know if it was quick or not. Um, I, yeah, I think, I think when I don't tell you the wrong thing. And I don't want people to listen to this who are like in submission and be like, oh God, I haven't heard anything. Like, I feel like that kind of comparison sometimes is just like not helpful for anyone. Yeah. um It's different. yeah It was quick it and it became competitive and that's like the dream, the dream situation. um
00:15:46
Speaker
for anybody. I felt so lucky because I had worked on this for like a year and a half alone, not knowing if anyone was going to ever want it. And so having multiple people be like, I'm interested was just, it was huge. It was like the best feeling. Yeah.
00:16:01
Speaker
Amara, I think it it went to a nine way auction. In the UK. Yeah. Yeah. In the UK. Yeah. How does, um, as the, the kind of writer, what's your involvement with that? Like, how do you, do you get to meet all of the different people who are, who are bidding for it? How does it work?
00:16:19
Speaker
How does it work? I'm trying to remember back because what happened in my case was there was a UK auction, US auction, and a screenwrites auction, and they all happened within about a week of each other.
00:16:30
Speaker
and I was at a wedding in Mexico while this was happening, so I was on all of these crazy Zooms. But I think the way it happened in the UK was like, I think everybody puts in their bids and then like half of them...
00:16:46
Speaker
Then there's like a second round and then you meet with the top half, I think. You get rid of the the bottom half in terms of bids and then you meet with the and then you meet with the top half.
00:16:58
Speaker
And then i think it was like a best... God, you should have an agent on the podcast because I'm i'm sure Helly is listening to this. I feel like in my memory, it was like...
00:17:11
Speaker
First round, everyone puts forward a bid just to be like, I'm in. Second round, the bottom half falls out and the top half gets meetings. And then I feel like it was like a best and final. Um,
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah. And I just, I feel so lucky that I ended up with Fourth Estate because I was coming into this from a place of just like extreme ignorance. I didn't work in publishing before. didn't know like anything.
00:17:34
Speaker
and I have a really hard time reading while I write. And so I hadn't like read anything lately. I was kind of out of the loop. And when I talked to Katie Bowden at Fourth Estate, I was just like,
00:17:46
Speaker
and i you just get a feeling sometimes. Like, I imagine it's what online dating is like. I was just like, oh, she seems like so nice and like, like she's going to be gentle with my newbie author feelings. But also like she had a point of view. She was really smart and she was just like so cool.
00:18:03
Speaker
and I was like, she's not going to make this into like, I think there was a risk with this book that it it it got like too, that it leaned too hard into like the mom stuff and became sort of like twee and I think she really was able to she had the same vision for like what this what space this should sit in and so I feel so lucky that I've ended up with her and everyone at fourth estate like they just they also now that I'm like in it like they've published the coolest books I'm so lucky to be here
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, Fourth Estate is a very cool um publishing arm. they I think of them as like a very prestigious imprint within HarperCollins. Yeah.
TV Rights and Adaptation Possibilities
00:18:48
Speaker
And they're all so great. Like they, they're just nice. They had me around last week for like, they got me a cake that said all the other brothers hate me on And I have like disco balls. It was just insane. Like it was so fun. So yeah, I'm on the, um it's a bit of like the victory lap now and not like the hard grind of sitting alone at your desk for six hours a day, trying to think of something. um So it's been, it's been really delightful also to have such nice people to to share that with.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And let's, i mean, just very quickly touch on, you mentioned the TV rights auction as well. That ended up being picked up by, is it the creator of The Bear?
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Wow. For a store in FXB. With these things, you have to kind of, you know, understand that a lot of these things never actually come to fruition, but still very exciting. Yes, absolutely. Lots of things die in development. That's the first thing everyone tells you. Don't get your hopes up.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. it's like one in 10, uh, book rights get turned into actual series or movies whatever. Yeah. That sounds right. Yeah. It's a, the odds are not in your favor.
00:20:01
Speaker
no No, the odds are absolutely not. It's been a really fun process. And I mean, those guys are just like, you hear good things about them in the industry, but like to actually work with them has been a dream. Like they are as good as everyone says, and they're just really smart and also really kind. And I think that's such a rare combination in this industry.
00:20:23
Speaker
And I kind of feel like whatever happens with it, I'm so grateful to have had this opportunity to work with them. I've learned so much.
Desert Island Book Choice
00:20:30
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. um That brings us to the point in the episode where I ah ship you off with no belongings, except to say, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be?
00:20:46
Speaker
Oh my God. I feel like there's a strategy element to this. Like, do you pick something that you love that you could read again and again? or do you pick something new that you've been meeting to get around to and like hope you're getting picked up by a rescue ship soon?
00:21:04
Speaker
Take the risk.
00:21:07
Speaker
Yeah. Look, I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to go like meta and just pick Robinson Caruso because I've never read that. And I feel like it would resonate. And I don't know how to build a fire or anything. anyway like I would definitely succumb the first night to whatever animals are on this island.
00:21:25
Speaker
So I'd like to read Robinson Caruso before I go. And I feel like stranded on a desert island would be cool. Yeah, okay. Just embrace the the vibes, embrace the situation and just fully into it.
00:21:38
Speaker
Go fully into it. And like, hopefully the rescue ship is coming. i ah I've not read that book, so it's not an endorsement. And I hope it's not like been... I don't know. I let my kid watch Peter Pan the other day and then I was like horrified by how racist Peter, the cartoon of Peter Pan is. So I hope it's not one of those things where it's like, oh, that book is aged terribly and you shouldn't be talking about it on the podcast.
00:21:59
Speaker
But um yeah, there's my pick. Well, fingers
Closing Remarks and Social Media Links
00:22:04
Speaker
crossed. Yeah. I mean, I've not watched the animated Peter Pan in a long time. Um, I was like, Whoa, okay. It's cause I had good memories of that from being a kid, but no, I mean, anyway, moving on.
00:22:17
Speaker
ah I wanted to dial back even further and talk, talk a bit about your kind of writing origins, where it all started for you, as well as your, your process and how you kind of, um,
00:22:29
Speaker
tackle creating novels and stories. All of that will be available on patreon.com slash right and wrong in the extended episode. So it's a great problem to have. Oh, too many books that I want to read.
00:22:46
Speaker
ah should be so lucky. Yes. Yeah, exactly. um Awesome. Well, we we are at the end of the episode now. So thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on the podcast, telling us all about um the the new book, your debut, All the Other Mothers Hate Me, which will be out um as of this episode going live. So anyone listening, you can go grab it in all the all the usual places.
00:23:07
Speaker
um But yeah, Sarah, thank you so much. It's been so cool chatting to you and hearing about your writing and publishing journey. oh Thank you so much, Jamie, for having me. It was really fun to talk to you. Hopefully I'll see you again for book two.
00:23:18
Speaker
Yes, fingers crossed. I'm excited to see what it is and I'm excited for your publisher to see what it is too. For everyone listening. If you want to keep up with what Sarah is doing, you can find her on Instagram at Sarah underscore Harmon underscore writer.
00:23:35
Speaker
Or you can go over to her website, Sarah dash Harmon dot com. To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad free extended episodes and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones of Other Tropes.
00:23:47
Speaker
Thanks again, Sarah. And thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.