Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
#230 - Fiona Cummins
298 Plays25 days ago
Bestselling crime thriller author, Fiona Cummins is with us this week chatting about wishing she could plot her novels, learning and then teaching with the Faber Academy and how big splashy deals don't always lead to a sustainable writing career.
Support the show on Patreon! 💖 And get extended episodes, ad-free and a week ahead of everyone else. 🙏
For audio listeners:
Listen to The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes, Jamie's other podcast with Melissa Welliver and Naomi Gibson! 📚
Follow on socials! 🥳
Recommended
Transcript
The Essence of Writing
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of it's kind of a gamble.
Podcast Introduction with Fiona Cummins
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. Joining me today is an award-winning former journalist, a tutor at the Faber Academy and a best-selling crime novelist.
00:00:25
Speaker
It's Fiona Cummins. Hello. Hello, thank you very much for having me, Jamie. It's great to be here. Thank you so much
Fiona's New Book: 'Some of Us Are Liars'
00:00:32
Speaker
for coming on. um Let's jump right in with the new book, Some of Us Are Liars, which is out 19th of June.
00:00:39
Speaker
Tell us a bit about it. So this is a very complex and twisty tale, and it's about um three sisters who are extremely close. um One of them is very famous, is a global superstar, really, and very wealthy. um And the others live more ordinary lives, I would suppose.
00:00:59
Speaker
And basically, when um Jen Miller, who is the middle sister, When she entrusts her youngest child to the care of her beloved sisters, Winter and Alyssa, ah she has no idea of the devastating tragedy that is about to unfold and the far-reaching consequences for her family. And the reason um that I decided to write about this is because I've always been fascinated by this idea about what would happen to...
00:01:33
Speaker
the bonds of a family who are really, really close. If something really terrible happened and there was a sense that, you know, one of your family might have been responsible for that, what would it do? Would it would it strengthen your bond? Would it shatter um your family? And that is what this novel explores.
00:01:52
Speaker
Oh, okay. And that's a cool setup as well. I think it's a really interesting social dynamic to see what a group of siblings, three in this case, how that kind of interaction works when one of them is a celebrity and like the kind of way that affects a relationship.
Family Dynamics in Wealth and Fame
00:02:10
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, in my former life, I was a showbiz journalist and I've been waiting. um I mean, this is my seventh book and I've been waiting for a little while to write about um celebrity. And it's not the main focus of the novel by by any stretch of the imagination. But, you know, there is an element of insider knowledge, I suppose, that has gone into the writing of this. um And you're absolutely right. I mean, I think when anybody within a family becomes very wealthy or very successful um and and perhaps other members of the family,
00:02:40
Speaker
don't That's an interesting dynamic at play, isn't there? Is there jealousy? Is there excitement and pride? Is it a combination of all of those things? and So that's explored to an extent as well. Yep.
00:02:52
Speaker
Okay, very cool. And like you said, seventh novel, does it get easier, harder, a bit of both the more books you write?
The Writing Process and Personal Influence
00:03:02
Speaker
I think that's a really interesting question. um What i would say is that every single book that I've written is different. um Some books have this kind of gorgeous alchemy about them where they almost write themselves. um And then other books are much more difficult. And sometimes that can be because you haven't thought the idea out as carefully as you might have done. um
00:03:31
Speaker
my you know, people talk about writer's block, for example. And my my feeling about that is not so much that you're blocked as a writer, but that the idea that you are working on, um,
00:03:44
Speaker
is not working in the way that you might like. And so when you go back and really explore that and and think about what's going wrong or which blind alley you might have gone down, and that can sometimes sort of free up writer's block.
00:03:56
Speaker
um And the other thing that I would say is that, you know, circumstances, sometimes things happen in your life, personal things, life events that impact on your writing as well. And so every book in a way has a personality of its own and has ah different process. um But what i do believe, what I do think is that you can struggle with a book or you can think a book um has been wonderful to write.
00:04:20
Speaker
And ultimately, the readers can't tell the difference. So obviously, that's quite interesting as well. Yeah. Also, I guess when you're obviously writing a novel, it's sort of an all encompassing thing. You put so much time into it, so much focus into it. You're so close to it that I think ah sometimes I've spoken to authors where they've said like, I wrote this one book and it was so easy and I thought it was going to be amazing and it didn't do as well as I'd hoped it would. And then there was this other one, which was like a nightmare for them to write. And like, they really struggled at every step of it.
00:04:49
Speaker
and and And it did really well when it came out. And like, it's hard to tell sometimes when you're so close to something. Absolutely. I don't think that you can be subjective, um objective, sorry, about your own work.
Overcoming Writer's Block
00:05:00
Speaker
I think that's a really difficult thing.
00:05:02
Speaker
What I do think, though, is that you can tell when an idea is particularly commercial, and you can tell when a book is working. think, as ah an author, that's definitely something that you become more attuned to, um as your career progresses, or at least that's been the my my experience I mean we're all different um and you know there are definite kind of books where I think right I need to distill this idea um down a bit more I need to um have a little bit more clarity about this or um you know be in a situation for example um my fourth novel when I was 10 that's been a very popular novel with readers and and that book did
00:05:46
Speaker
write itself to ah to some degree it really did it just flew out of me that and and I long to replicate that experience but uh not quite yet I mean actually the one I'm working on now I'm enjoying so much and that that does feel quite similar um but yeah every every book is different and you know in a way every process is is different too um Sometimes you write faster.
00:06:12
Speaker
Sometimes it's ah it's a slog. It's a chore, you know. And um it's I think it's Stephen King who said, wasn't it, that, you know, the thing about writing is that you have to show up um every day. um And that's what you do when you're a writer like I am. I'm a full time writer. I'm very lucky to be in that position at the moment. And so, you know, you treat it like a job. You give it the respect that it deserves. um That's what I try to do anyway.
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah. And yeah um you mentioned writer's block, but writer's block is something that I think can be, when you talk about it with different authors, can be very divisive. People have a different idea of what it is or whether it is a real thing or not.
00:06:49
Speaker
But I think, yeah, just
Respecting Readers Amid Personal Hardships
00:06:51
Speaker
simply making yourself write stuff, it's like you'll you'll eventually get past whatever hurdle you're you're facing if you just, like you say, sit down and treat it like ah like a nine to five and just...
00:07:03
Speaker
And I, you know, I've always felt that I don't want to be the type of author who might, you know, phone a novel in. um I think that every book deserves to be as good as you can make it. You know, your readers are um paying good money to to to buy your books. And whether that's a 99p ebook or whether it's an £18.99 hardback, still...
00:07:28
Speaker
pound hard back um it's still um people's hard-earned cash that they are forking out to read one of your books. and And that deserves to be treated with respect. You know, it's, I would hate the idea that anyone would think that that there was lazy writing or lazy plotting.
00:07:48
Speaker
You know, i I really do try my very best with each book that I write to make it as good as I possibly can at a given time. um But,
00:07:59
Speaker
For sure. I mean, I think, you know, life circumstances um make a difference. um You know, lockdown, personally, I found that very difficult to write. um You know, my my lovely dad um has been very ill and and he died about three weeks ago. And that's been quite difficult to write during that whole period of time. And so i think, you know, you can't, um you can't but help be influenced by outside events. But, you know, sometimes um for me, writing is a distraction um from the problems in my life, from the difficulties in life. and
00:08:34
Speaker
and And also I use writing as a way to process, you know, big life events that happen to me. And so I find it very comforting and and not being able to do it would be um horrendous. And so That's one of the nice things about being a full-time writer is that i can sit
Trusting the Subconscious in Writing
00:08:52
Speaker
down at my desk and and and I can sit here for two hours and maybe not write very much. But as long as I write something, um I go away feeling feeling better about it all.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, I entirely get that. Do ever find that sometimes, if you are stuck on something, just making yourself right, and then writing perhaps the wrong thing sets you on the track to be like, ah, okay, that was not right.
00:09:16
Speaker
But now I know, now that I did that, I know exactly how to write it and what I need to write. Yes. And I can sometimes, you know, agonise over a couple of paragraphs and I've written them and i know that they're not right, but I'm not quite sure how to fix them.
00:09:30
Speaker
um and And I think that is an instinct that you come to trust as you become a more experienced writer as well. I always remember my agent saying to me, um that if she, when she reads a manuscript, has a niggle about that manuscript, she is she has come to learn over the years that if she has that niggle about the manuscript, an editor will have a niggle about that part of the manuscript and a reader will also have that niggle. So it's definitely worth paying attention to your instincts. And so i try and smooth out those niggles, I suppose, by yeah i might go for a walk or I might, um I don't know, go and
00:10:10
Speaker
do some cooking. And I often find that when my, my hands are busy, but my head is not, that's when um problems, knotty plot problems tend to resolve themselves. um So, you know, you're busy.
00:10:22
Speaker
i might be chopping some mushrooms or something. And then I'll think, oh, that is, that is how I'm going to solve It it just comes. comes and And I think, In a way, you have to learn to trust the process. One of the things I find so fascinating about ah being a writer is that this kind of strange...
00:10:42
Speaker
like these your subconscious is working all the time, even if you're not aware of it. And, you know, you'll have an an issue with your manuscript or you'll have a problem with plot or something. And, you know, it's, been really struggling to, to work it out. And then the idea will present itself. And you realise that kind of, you know, somewhere in the back of your brain, you've been puzzling that out and puzzling it out over a period of days, say, and then all of a sudden, the solution will present itself.
00:11:07
Speaker
And I think that over time, I've learned to come to trust myself that that will happen. Okay. There's, I guess there's a kind of quiet comfort in knowing that you you just need to take a break sometimes, but your subconscious is still ticking away. and And that's often when you get your breakthrough. I think so. And, but that's not to say that you, you know, you, you, we, us writers can and do make mistakes. You know, we might have written ourselves down a blind alley. We might have you know, not thought the idea through perhaps as clearly as we might have done or what we haven't done is been able to distill, you know, talking to you about some of us are liars and, you know, it's basically... um
00:11:51
Speaker
that that premise that i outlined earlier. And, you know, that's a very clear um idea. And sometimes if the idea is a little bit vague, or you haven't really ah managed to drill down into the absolute heart of your story and what it is you're trying to convey, that's also when you can get into a bit of difficulty, I think. So um i find it It's really important for me at the beginning when I start to write a book to make sure that I've really drilled down into the idea and I know exactly what it is I'm trying to say.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yes. Yeah.
From Journalism to Novel Writing
00:12:27
Speaker
think, especially if you're, um, if the genre or like whatever you're writing is, is quite driven by the concept. If like the selling point is often like pitched through the concept, obviously you need to really know what that is and be able to, to, um, talk about it with laser focus. Um, I'd love to dial it back a bit here, um, and talk about your, your kind of early entry into publishing. you're,
00:12:54
Speaker
debut novel Rattle came out in 2017 to an amazing reception. um How much had you written prior to Rattle? um Not very much at all in all honesty. i was a journalist by trade. um ah As soon as I left university i got my first job on a local newspaper and spent some time on local newspapers. I worked for the Lancashire Evening Post, and then I ended up at the Daily Mirror on one of their trainee schemes.
00:13:24
Speaker
um So my whole career had been in newspapers and, you know, I had been writing, um, ah different kind of writing but um you know I was a journalist um and I had dabbled with you know i'd I'd always written privately I suppose kind of very bad poetry and songs sometimes and short stories but I'd never weirdly considered writing novels as a career for somebody like me. um
00:13:55
Speaker
just didn't occur to me that people might pay you money to write books. I just, it just wasn't on my radar, even though it seems really strange, even though I studied English at university, even though, um I am, I was a voracious reader.
00:14:14
Speaker
um I just didn't think about it as a career particularly, but I, I've always loved reading and I'd enjoyed writing and, um, I ended up spending 12 years on the Daily Mirror as a journalist, half of those on news and features and half those on And the showbiz and and by the time you know I was sort of 12 years into it. i'd I'd had two children and I'd fallen out of love with journalism a little bit. And then there were some personal circumstances. um
00:14:47
Speaker
my My brother's wife, um who just had a baby, was very, very poorly with um stage four lymphoma, which is a type of blood cancer. And they had a newborn baby. I had a newborn baby and my oldest child, who was not yet two, also became very ill. So we had these two kind of major life events within a few weeks of each other. and And my brother and his family were in hospital on one side of London, and me and my family were in hospital on the other side of London.
00:15:13
Speaker
And it was one of those moments in time where you realise that absolutely nothing is promised. um None of us know what tomorrow is going to bring. And I thought, what would I really like to do with my life? I would love to have a go at writing a novel.
00:15:31
Speaker
um And I wouldn't really recommend this to anyone as I believe, but in a moment of, um I don't know, high emotion, i just quit my job.
00:15:43
Speaker
ah wow at the Daily Mirror. And um because I was very focused on wanting to spend time with family. um And um I didn't really have much of a backup plan. I decided that I was going to go freelance and try and juggle that with ah my two young children. um And I happened to be at home one day and the radio was on and there was an interview with an author called S J Watson, who wrote a book called before I go to sleep, which was very big at the time. And it later became a film with Nicole Kidman in it.
00:16:14
Speaker
And he was talking about the Faber Academy, and which was a writing school. And, um and I thought that sounds interesting. And I applied um and I got on there and rattle um was the book that I started writing on that creative writing course.
00:16:34
Speaker
Um, And I appreciate this isn't necessarily a route for everybody. it Creative writing courses are expensive to do. And I did have to think very carefully about whether, you know, we could afford it given that I'd just left my job.
00:16:50
Speaker
um My mum looked after um my two children while I went up to London and once a week for six months to spend three hours um doing this writing course. And it was transformative.
00:17:04
Speaker
for me. um Because at the end of it, um i I met my agent. um And, you know, within a few months, we'd had, um you know, a lot of interest in the book. So, but that is not everybody's story. And I don't believe that writing courses are you know, essential in any way to becoming a published author, um they can help you. I mean, there's facilitated meetings with agents and editors, that's for sure. But you can, you know, agents are accessible. You can send your manuscripts in. So it's not, and, you know, it's the industry, um
00:17:51
Speaker
the industry does seem to um hold, put a lot of sway, I suppose, on, on creative writing courses. Um, but it's, it's, you know, you can still end up being discovered without having done one a hundred percent.
00:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'm just curious. So your, your agent is Sophie Lambert at CNW. Was that, so had did you finish the course and then, um, submit to agents or was that one of those end of course kind of packs that went out?
Finding an Agent and Manuscript Revisions
00:18:21
Speaker
Yeah. So at the time, um, so Sophie had come along and I think she'd given a talk to our group at at some stage during the the six month course. And I really liked her. She was very, um, grounded, very wise and had a really smart editorial, um, eye.
00:18:39
Speaker
And so I really liked her. Um, And then as part of the course, I'm not sure how they do it now, but when I did it, um you put a short extract into an anthology that was sent out to um several agencies.
00:18:54
Speaker
um And then there was a day where you read, um I think you had two minutes or something to read from your work in progress. um And I was extremely nervous. um You know, i although I'd been a journalist for for a good many years, I didn't know whether I had the you know, writing chops. I really didn't know whether I could write stories, um you know, books, full length novels, a 90,000 word novel is very different to a, you know, a 1500 word feature or something. So I didn't know whether I could do it. um
00:19:29
Speaker
But i I remember feeling elated because on the way to that day, um and these anthologies had already gone out, I got an email from um an agent an agency expressing interest in Rattle And I thought, oh, it's going to be okay. And so at the end of the, um by the end of that kind of creative writing course and stuff going out, um I'd had,
00:19:52
Speaker
interest from about seven agents. Wow. And I hadn't quite finished the book. So um i knew that I had to do that. And but my mind was quite focused because I knew I had some interest. And so I i did that. And I sent out the book to, um to ah to a handful of agents.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I remember really vividly that I knew a prospect on my hands, I suppose, because I sent out the first three chapters and I got an email back within half an hour from an agent saying, I was just going to glance at this. And then i I read it and I could not stop reading it and please send me the whole book. And wow so that was quite an exciting moment. And then, so I, so I did, I sent it out to a few agents, um but, and I was lucky to be invited to meetings and, and, and all the rest of it. And, yeah,
00:20:46
Speaker
I, I'd felt a real affinity to Sophie and she hadn't replied. And I was like, what? um And anyway, i think in, In a nutshell, I messaged her and I said, I've had some offers from agents and I just wanted to let you know and give you an opportunity to get back to me if you want. And she came back immediately and said, I'm sorry, I've been on holiday. Let me read it. And then she offered to me representation. And the ultimate reason that I went with Sophie was because we had a phone call and she said, yeah, it's good, but we can make it better.
00:21:26
Speaker
And I loved that. I loved this idea that, you know, because I I've never been precious about my writing at all. I'm always happy to be edited. I'm happy to have input from an editor, from an agent who perhaps has a better handle on the market or a better idea. um Certainly when I was starting out of me of writing.
00:21:47
Speaker
of the taste of readers and what people respond to and all sorts of interesting and and useful things that I hadn't even thought about. um And I loved that she said that. And she said to me, I can be quite gruesome. And by that she meant she could be quite harsh um in her criticisms.
00:22:06
Speaker
But I wanted that. I didn't want it to go out in two weeks time, not being ready and to be turned down by everybody. I wanted to make it the very best that it could be. And so that's what happened. So Sophie and I worked on it for about six months, um finished it, and it was ready to go. um and we sent it out to, think it was about five of the biggest publishers. And there had been real excitement. There was, um ah you know, an editor from a ah big publisher who had been ringing around literary agencies trying to find out who represented me because she'd heard about this book. And, you know, and it was all very exciting. And then
00:22:40
Speaker
every single one of them turned it down.
Perseverance Through Rejections
00:22:44
Speaker
And I was heartbroken. I was heartbroken, but there was ah chink of light in that they all said they loved the writing, um but that it couldn't decide whether it was a horror novel or a crime novel. And, you know, the market's changed a bit since then. and We've seen many more kind of horror crime mashups and things, but at the time they were like the book,
00:23:08
Speaker
you need to decide whether you're going to go the horror route and whether you're going to the go the crime route. And, you know, crime being one of the biggest selling genres, um you know, I was, I was, it was recommended to me that to do that. So that's what I did. And it was really difficult because I'd had feedback from all of these different editors and I'd been invited to do what's called a revise and resubmit. So you kind of rework it again.
00:23:30
Speaker
And they all gave me different advice. One person said, make it a police procedural. One said, you need to deepen the psychological thriller aspect of it. Another said, you know, had said, you need to bring out this character. And it was all different. And I, and my head was in this huge spin and I just didn't know what to do. And my agent, Sophie, she said to me, gut instinct has taken you this far.
00:23:49
Speaker
um So trust that. And, you know, that's a really good bit of advice that I would give to, you know, other authors to, to people who want, um to people who want to write, because um I, I feel instinct is one of those things when it comes to writing is one of those rare things that can't be taught, in my opinion, like you either have it or you don't. But I do feel that you can develop instinct and you can do that becoming by reading a lot, by recognising what works in novels and what doesn't, what what speaks to you and what doesn't. And so, you know, having read so many books, um it helps hone your own instincts when it comes to writing. And so that's what I did. I i cherry picked the bits of advice that I'd been given that I thought would work best for the book. And I worked those in
00:24:35
Speaker
And then it went out on submission again. i And that was one of the most exciting periods of my life. We had auctions um in the UK. We had auctions in um Germany, huge auction in Germany, multiple offers from ah foreign rights territories and the TV rights sold and, you know, all of this stuff. and And so I think, you know, it's it's ah it's a salutary lesson in that, you know, things don't,
00:25:04
Speaker
necessarily always work out in the way that you want them to work out, but you have to be in the game to, to, to play it. If you know what i mean, you have to, um you know, I could have said, Oh, I can't take this. I'm not going to rewrite it I've already put all of this work into it. I'm just going to leave it. And, you know, if I'd done that, I wouldn't have had a writing career i wouldn't have the writing career that I have now. And I, and, you know, speak to any author um and they will say to you that publishing,
00:25:34
Speaker
is a roller coaster of a ride. you know The highs are very high and the lows can be quite low. you can be flavour of the month at one moment. You can have a bruised heart another time because a book that you've loved so much hasn't done what, you know, what you've wanted it to.
00:25:51
Speaker
um But if you step away from it, then you have no chance. And so that's one of the things that I think about um quite a lot. And just this idea, you know, with with authors, with really successful authors as well. You know, some people do have a very splashy debut and then they go on to have an absolutely stellar career, but that is so rare.
00:26:11
Speaker
And so, you you know The thing that I think about it is that you just keep on keeping on and you hopefully write the best book that you can every time you write a book and you you keep going and you' you're steady and you're building and each book perhaps sells a bit more than the next book. And, you know, lots of authors, big authors that we know now don't break out to their eighth book, their 10th book, sometimes their 20th book. um And it's having faith in yourself.
00:26:41
Speaker
um I think that's key.
Challenges in the Publishing Industry
00:26:44
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. i feel like the when people say um it took you know it took five years to become an overnight success, it's like never truer than in publishing.
00:26:55
Speaker
No, absolutely. And I think, you know, because I think, you know, everybody's route, everybody's journey is different. And, you know, if you compare yourself to other writers that way, madness lies. So it's about looking at your own trajectory. And, you know, I remember Sophie saying to me, you know, do you want to, you know, have this kind of big, splashy debut and then no one, you know, you know you never write anything else again? Or do you want to still be here in 10 years time, in 20 years time?
00:27:21
Speaker
And, you know, my idea of, success, the definition of success has changed a great deal, I think, since I started. Of course, you know, all of us would love to have the red carpet premiere and, um you know, the half a million pound advance and you know, bestseller lists and baubles and awards and accolades and all of that sort of stuff. But actually the simplest thing for me is earning enough money from my writing to keep on doing it. And I recognize that that is an enormously privileged position to be in.
00:27:57
Speaker
Writing is my job. um it has to pay me and enough as a job. I can't afford not to work. And so, um I want to give it my all like I would any job and and try and do the very best I can. And sometimes, you know, um publishing, this is particularly of true of publishing that the success can take, you know, much longer than in other industries. And it's one of those weird industries, isn't it, where, you know,
00:28:26
Speaker
I mean, i think I think this is definitely changing, but people, publishers would often worship at the altar of the debut. And I've always found it quite interesting that, you know, there'll be a lot of money um lavished on debut writers who actually haven't really got a proven track record.
00:28:44
Speaker
And then you'll look at, say, a midlist author who might have done six or eight books and and they've been doing pretty well maybe not kind of stellar but you know they've been doing just fine and and actually you know there's an argument that they should be much more rewarded for their ability to write a book a year to be consistent to meet their deadlines and to to keep on growing than you you know somebody who's untested i think it's really really interesting but i do i do think that that is changing a bit in publishing um so watch the space i guess Yeah, I actually had a similar discussion with some friends of mine who are authors the other day.
Transparency and Fairness in Publishing
00:29:20
Speaker
And we sort of thought, could could there exist a system where there is just a set rate for all debuts? There is no like super big um six figure debut deal, but there is also no sort of like really low one, which is also another big issue with trying to break into this industry. If there was just a set rate and everyone who was, everyone who said that if you were a debut, this was what your advance was.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah, and being paid fairly because it's, you know, you you know ah horrible as it is that you know that if if you're having been in the industry for a little while, you know that if a um if a book advance is not particularly high, you know that there isn't really going to be that much of a marketing spend. You know, a publishers perhaps hope that a book will take on a life of its own.
00:30:06
Speaker
um And I mean, some of the things that we've talked about amongst my writing contemporaries and friends is this idea of transparency about payment because you know i I personally I feel that there is a discrepancy um between sometimes male and female authors um and um it would be nice to have a bit of transparency there is transparency in lots of other industries about pay scales and and things like that and You know, it's definitely an interesting idea to explore. However, it's quite difficult to quantify, I think, because, you know, you might think, well, I sell a so similar number of books as this author, and therefore I should be paid the same. But they might just have submitted a book that the publishers think, actually, this is going to be the big one. This is going to be the one that has got a lot of commercial appeal, and we think it's going to
00:30:54
Speaker
you know, it's going to explode. And so it's very difficult to to quantify payments, I suppose. But I do think it would be interesting to know, to actually have maybe even done anonymously, but to see um roughly what some authors sell and how much they get paid. So you can see where you fit into that pay scale. um Because, you know, secrecy in a way about these things is how, um you know, discrepancy in pay can be,
00:31:23
Speaker
continue to survive, I suppose, because we we don't talk about money in that way. But um it's an interesting one, isn't it? People are private about finances and I can understand that, but um it's definitely something to think about.
00:31:34
Speaker
Yes. Yeah,
Desert Island Book Choice
00:31:35
Speaker
yeah. Definitely. fi thought um That brings us to the point in the episode where I steal all of your stuff and ship you off to a desert island with nothing but a single book.
00:31:46
Speaker
And in that instance, which book do you hope that it would be? Well, this is a really good question because I'm going to go a bit renegade here and say that i would like to take a book that I'd never read before.
00:32:03
Speaker
And I think this is because um i get bored very easily. and um I was thinking about this and I thought that given its popularity, I might take first in the Game of Thrones series because I think it'll be really chunky.
00:32:20
Speaker
um So there'll be lots to read and I haven't read it before. I don't want to read a book that I've read before. I want to take something new. i don't want to be bored. um i want to um while away the hours because I don't know how long it will be until I manage to um swim to safety or get rescued or maybe that won't happen at all.
00:32:41
Speaker
And then i can all... If it's really bad and I don't enjoy it at all, at least I can set fire to it. And it might last a bit longer than a slim volume of fiction.
00:32:53
Speaker
That's true. They are, they are chunky. Those Song of Ice and Fire books. Is that a really bad choice? I haven't actually read them. they're good. They're very good. And I think they're accessible for people who aren't particularly in, um they're like more accessible than other fantasy, if that makes sense. Cause they're much more grounded.
00:33:13
Speaker
They're much more sort of medieval history in some ways with fantasy elements that bleed into them. Yeah, well, i'm going to I'm going to stand by my choice. and If I read it um over the summer, and um I might live to regret it, but we'll see.
00:33:30
Speaker
Well, your problem then is if you read it and you love it, you then have to read all of the next ones. And then you have to wait. It's been 14 years since people have been waiting for the new one to come out. And then there's another one.
00:33:44
Speaker
There's another one coming after that. So who knows how long you're going to be waiting to finish that series. Well, the thing is I might be on the desert island for a very long time. That's true. It might it might not matter. Yeah. Just swap them out.
00:33:58
Speaker
yeah That's a great choice. I like that. ah Very brave. um But, ah but I, but I appreciate that. Do people, do people always choose books they've read before? No, people do sometimes take um books that they haven't read, but they're usually books that, I mean, like, like you, it's a book that they've thought about reading that they've been like, no, I i just need to find the time to read this book I haven't read it yet.
00:34:21
Speaker
I bet it's more literary and highbrow than me though, isn't it? No, some people, some people, yes. Some people bring wacky choices. One of my friends decided to bring the Argos catalogue.
00:34:32
Speaker
um I mean, I like looking at catalogues, but that wouldn't sustain you. that like That would last for about an hour. come on. Yeah, I don't know. A lot of people bring Jane Austen.
00:34:45
Speaker
um Yeah, there's a good mix. There's a nice diverse mix of of stuff that people have decided to bring, which is cool. What about survivalist handbooks?
The Allure of Crime Genre
00:34:54
Speaker
Yeah, we have a few of those. Yeah.
00:34:58
Speaker
if there's a I imagine that there's like one of those little like um post office, like ah no like post box libraries kind of there. And I imagine all the other, all the books from previous guests have put them all there. So you'd find a bunch of like how to build a raft and how to survive in them.
00:35:12
Speaker
And thinking about your friends who chose the Argos catalogue, when I talked about it earlier, when I was freelancing, one of the jobs that I did was actually and to to make some money was to write the little catalogue.
00:35:23
Speaker
and oh wow So I would write the Christmas edition and the Easter edition. So if if I ever do that kind of work again, I'll be sure to pay particular attention to my writing, given that it might be read by someone on a desert island.
00:35:36
Speaker
Amazing. Perfect. um we're about halfway so next up i have got some questions about writing process about teaching and crime as a genre both in its creation and where it's currently sitting in the industry that will all be available in the extended episode on patreon.com slash right and wrong You know, people that do terrible things, really terrible things often have people that they love and things that they care about. And so it's kind of exploring this whole, um but the whole complexity of the human condition, I think.
00:36:14
Speaker
Yes, yes, absolutely. And that's, I mean, that's, know, that's a huge reason what reason why we love to read about other people's experiences. We love to sort of try and empathize with people that we just don't understand.
00:36:26
Speaker
why we love to read and particularly why we love to read crime, I think, crime is one of the the genres that does that so brilliantly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um Amazing. Well, that brings us to the end
Podcast Conclusion and Social Media
00:36:38
Speaker
of the interview. Thank you so much, Fiona, for coming on the podcast and telling us all about your writing and your kind of publishing journey and and the new book, Some of Us Are Liars, which is out 19th of June, which will probably mean that most of the people listening to this It will be out by the time this episode comes out. But yeah, thank you so much, Fiona. It's been amazing chatting with you. And thank you for having me.
00:36:59
Speaker
And for anyone wanting to keep up with what Fiona is doing, you can find her on Twitter at Fiona Ann Cummins or on Instagram at Fiona Cummins Author. To support the podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again, Fiona. And thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.