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#214 - Éric Chacour
81 Plays1 hour ago
Contemporary fiction author, Éric Chacour is here to chat about the incredible success of his debut novel, 'Ce que je sais de toi' and the journey he and the novel have been on. We also chat a bit about publication and all the discovery that comes with that.
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Transcript
The Gamble of Writing
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that, and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble. Hello,
Introducing Eric Shakur
00:00:15
Speaker
and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by a writer whose debut novel was shortlisted for a host of literary awards, calling in from across the pond over in Canada. It's Eric Shakur. Hello.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hey Jamie, thank you for the invitation. Thanks so much
Eric's Novel: Themes and Inspirations
00:00:32
Speaker
for coming on. um Let's jump right in, starting with the novel. ah Tell us a little bit about what I know about you. Well, it shouldn't be a tricky question, but actually it is a bit. because it it's constructed, well, it's built in a way which is quite difficult to to sum up. But in a few words, I would say it's ah it's a story of impossible love, um a family story also, and probably a story of exile. It's the story of one main character called Tarek um whose life
00:01:12
Speaker
was supposed to be very comfortable, you know, he would do the same job as his father, become a doctor, um have the same place in the community as his parents and yeah, make a good marriage. But I think comfortable lives don't necessarily make up for very good novels. So there will be something, there will be a spark and all of a sudden his life will be changed.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yes. what Do you remember the first thought that inspired you to write this story?
Influences: Shakespeare and Egyptian Heritage
00:01:45
Speaker
um I think it's always difficult to know the question about the ah intentions, because especially for a first novel, I think you you write it without thinking too much about your intentions. You know you you just want to to tell a story ah which is in your head and which seems beautiful in your head.
00:02:07
Speaker
wondering if you would be able to to write it beautifully. But I think there were two intentions. um The first one was, well, the first one comes from your country. I wanted to make my own Romeo and Juliet. And without spoiling too much to the story, there is that incredibly witty mechanism of Shakespeare in his play.
00:02:33
Speaker
that I wanted to reuse in in in my novel. So I think one of the intentions was this one. And the second one was to to write a kind of long love letter to Egypt.
00:02:50
Speaker
Not necessarily the Egypt I know, because I've been maybe 15 times in Egypt, but the Egypt I'm talking about in that novel is quite different. It's the Egypt of one community, and it's at the time of my parents. you know it's It's a so total fiction. It's not their story, but it takes place in their Egypt. So, yeah, I think these were the intentions I had.
00:03:14
Speaker
Okay,
Setting the Scene: A Real Egypt
00:03:15
Speaker
so almost I guess as part of the research for this, but probably just you being the child of your parents was was a lot of this sort of um brought on by the stories that your parents used to tell you about Egypt and like their time there.
00:03:29
Speaker
Yeah, I was completely amazed by these stories, you know, those of my parents, ah their friends, ah my uncle's aunt, who lived in Egypt at that time, and in in quite a specific community, ah which is a Levantine one, composed of Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian, who lived in Egypt, were mostly Francophones, ah most of all,
00:03:59
Speaker
Most of them spoke better French than Arabic, for example. The monotone was quite often French, um mostly Christian and and yeah quite Westernized in the way of seeing the world. And I was amazed by, I don't know, the story of my mother who told me that she went to the sporting club to listen to the new, um you know, the black disc of music ah coming from France, ah those of Françoise-Argy, France-Gal, Côte-François. And I was like, oh my God, at that time,
00:04:37
Speaker
they were listening to the exact same thing than in France, in Quebec, in in most Francophone part of the world. And yeah, was I was quite amazed by that. And I wanted to, I don't know, to reuse a bit that ambiance in my book. Okay, yeah, about how even though it kind of feels like all of these cultures are like so far apart, but they're actually all kind of on the same wavelength.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yes, and and and it said something about Egypt at that time, um something that you could imagine that have has never existed, because if you go to Egypt right now, you you won't see that community, or very little compared to what it was. You you you won't see anything about this francophone lifestyle, a very westernized community.
00:05:30
Speaker
But I wanted to tell something about it. I don't know maybe a testimonial or I don't know something like many memories that I wanted to to talk about. But once again, it's only the background. It's not the story itself. um The story is quite invented. But yeah, the background, I was very attached to that Egypt.
00:05:51
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And
International Success and Translation
00:05:53
Speaker
this was your your debut novel. I don't know that originally ah it was in French and had a different title, but how long, and am I right in thinking it came out in 2023 originally? It went out in 2023 in Quebec in January. So um more than two years now. um And then in France a few months later. And yeah, it's it's been two years with that novel and I'm quite amazed I'm still talking about it. ah It's quite a wonderful story because it has been translated in 15 languages. And I don't know, it has a special life in each country. So I'm very happy when I have the opportunity to talk about it.
00:06:41
Speaker
Amazing.
The Journey: 15 Years in the Making
00:06:43
Speaker
How long were you working on it before it was published? Oh my God, Jamie. I don't want to know something like 15 years, I would say. But not intensively. There were years I wasn't even writing something.
00:07:04
Speaker
But here as I was more intense on it. um It was like a hobby, you know. i I had my story, I had my plan. I knew exactly what I wanted to tell, chapter by chapter. um Who were the characters in that chapter? What were the information they would exchange? um What could, in my mind, give a pleasure for the reader to turn the page?
00:07:29
Speaker
And then when I had some little inspiration, I would go back to it and try to write a chapter, not necessarily in the chronological order. So you may have in in that book two chapters, one after the first. did the yeah the second one after to the first one, but both have been written in with a gap of 15 years. um I don't know. it's It's a debit novel, you know, it's something you you write with a bit of innocence without thinking too much what it could be. And when it is so warmly welcomed, well, it's quite incredible. Yeah. Was it something that you just started doing? You just sort of on a whim, you just thought, I'm going to start writing and see where it goes.
From Lyricist to Novelist
00:08:18
Speaker
Well, actually, my my my plan A was to to be a lyricist. I really wanted to be a lyricist, Paul Celindo, of course, because she comes from the and the same place as me, from Quebec. But yeah, I i really wanted to to write lyrics. But since I didn't know how to compose and and I didn't know how to play an instrument, I didn't know Any friend who would be a composer, I was like, okay, what's my next best thing to do? And it was probably to write a novel because I didn't need to have any technique on anything, so it only relied on me.
00:09:02
Speaker
And I was like, okay, with a bit of sweat and and and the fact of wanting to do it, maybe I can write my novel. So it was a bit impressive because I have never um studied literature.
00:09:19
Speaker
um But I had this story in my mind and yeah, I wanted to share it. Well, I mean, yeah, it's but it is the kind of one of the beauties of writing stories, writing prose and and like novels is that there is no barrier for entry. You can just do it.
Inspiration from Agatha Christie
00:09:38
Speaker
And there's not really a specific way that, you know, the thing that you need to learn to be able to do it.
00:09:44
Speaker
um did you, whilst you were kind of writing and stuff, did you ever look into writing resources or like books about writing and things? um I was, yeah, I was like, my God, there must be a recipe somewhere. So I was quite interested in, in learn how to build a story. And I found that study about how Agatha Christie wrote her books, um which said that, well, researchers found that she was using shorter sentences at the end of her books and and also shorter words, you know, like ah words of one or two syllables at the end, whereas ah in the beginning of
00:10:36
Speaker
her books, it was longer words. So I was like, oh my God, if, well, first of all, if it works for Agata, it will work for me, of course. yeah um And if it works for sentences and words, maybe it could also fall parts. So, you know, my book is composed of three parts and each one is ah shorter than the the previous one. But actually, I haven't taken any class of creative writing or things like that. I was just trying to, I don't know, to write in my own way. um Plus the fact I'm not the biggest of readers, personally.
00:11:21
Speaker
ah So I'm very inspired by many other forms of art. You know, we were talking about Romeo and Juliet and theater is one of my biggest inspiration, but also songs. um Maybe that comes from my lyricist career. bolt it yeah And I don't know many other cinema, for example, movies. So yeah, I'm i i'm trying to get inspired by many forms of art.
Beta Readers and Refinement
00:11:53
Speaker
Okay, that's interesting. Whilst you didn't necessarily look too much around writing, and you didn't do writing courses or or you just sort of looked at a few writing craft things. Did you give your book to anyone to read? Like, did you try and get feedback from people?
00:12:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I did with three persons. And I think it's important to do it, you know, to have some better our readers, I think they call it. um And I think it's important to do it knowing exactly what you want from each person. You know, for example, I i made a read by ah my godfather who lived in Egypt at that time.
00:12:37
Speaker
because I knew that if something was wrong in in in that story, he would see it and and and tell me about the background and the anthropological, societal context.
00:12:51
Speaker
um I made a treat by one of my cousins because she's someone very and who has a very good um emotional intelligence.
00:13:04
Speaker
so I was pretty sure that you would see if the characters were well-written, ah if we understood their inner struggles. And yeah, I think it's very important to to choose people for what they can bring to your story um and to reassure yourself. And then when I felt it was ready,
00:13:30
Speaker
I sent it to one publisher and and I was lucky enough that the first one I sent it to wanted to publish it, so it was quite a ah quick process for me.
00:13:42
Speaker
okay so I know that this was in the works for a long time and started more like a hobby for you. Was there a moment in the process somewhere along the line where you suddenly thought, actually, I think maybe this is more than just a hobby and I want to get this published?
00:14:01
Speaker
Honestly,
Pandemic Productivity
00:14:02
Speaker
at the very end, um during the pandemics, I was like, okay, it's been 15 years I was working on that. If I don't finish it right now when we don't have we cannot leave our home ah for holidays, we don't have ah time to go to work in the morning and in the afternoon, I will never finish it. so I was like, okay, I have to end that story now.
00:14:27
Speaker
and When it was finished i was like it would be a pity not to try at least to send it to to one publisher and it's a funny story actually because i i used to go to the ah montreal book fair with my cousins each year and that year they knew that i had something you know like ah manuscript on my and computer and it was like a game you know we will look for the future publisher of Eric so we will go in into the stands and and and and and seeing the editorial line of each one and all of a sudden we
00:15:09
Speaker
We went on the stand of Alto, which is a a Quebec publisher. And my cousin Tony, oh, look at the covers, how beautiful they are. It's my favorite publisher. And I went in the evening at home. I look on the internet because, once again, since I'm not the biggest of readers, I didn't know exactly who the publisher were.
00:15:35
Speaker
And I was like, oh, they are publishing very well-known Quebec writers, including some of them I have already read, like the Mick Fortier or Larry Trombley. I should try to send something to them. So i I just sent my manuscript on the generic email, and I was lucky enough to have an answer within maybe one or two months.
00:16:02
Speaker
And yeah, that's pretty quick. That's how the the process, it was actually, I had no references about it, but everyone told me it was quite quick. So I was like, I guess.
00:16:15
Speaker
I mean, that yeah, that's, that's pretty amazing. And also that you went, did you look into literary agents at all? Or did you just go straight for? I think didn't, I didn't even know that that job existed. I was like,
00:16:33
Speaker
I sent it on the the generic email, ah as it is said, on on their website, and I think I was quite innocent doing that, because even them told me, but you know, we we don't necessarily read in in priority she all the manuscript we received on that mailbox. you You've been lucky, so I was like, yeah, I guess I was.
00:16:55
Speaker
Wow, because a lot of publishers nowadays won't even take submissions from just authors in general. and they It always has to go through an agent. So yeah, that's an amazing result for you. i Yeah,
Publisher's Doubt and Validation
00:17:07
Speaker
i was I was very happy. But the funny story is that um the person who will then become my publisher At first, she didn't believe it was an original book because she she googled my name and she found I was ah working in a bank. I was a director of strategy in a bank. She was like,
00:17:32
Speaker
this doesn't like look like a debit novel. So maybe it's one of our writers who had some success back in time and and who just want to reassure himself about his literary quality. So she she made like an inquiry to find out which writer it was and she didn't find anyone. So she was like, okay, maybe This story is happening in Egypt. Maybe it's an Arabic book written originally in Arabic and they are trying to sell it as an original French version. So she she has the friend of her to translate some of the sentences so she could try to Google them and and and then find if it was an existing book and it was not the case.
00:18:24
Speaker
and But of course, I didn't know any of that. yeah And when we first met, he was asking quite disturbing questions like, do you write alone? And I was like, what does it mean exactly? And I was answering, well, you know... in Sometimes I like to go in a cafe and write in a cafe and I'm surrounded by people. And I saw that it wasn't what she was asking exactly, but I didn't know how what what to say. And and one day the the managing director of this publisher told me, oh, but you know, Catherine, she didn't.
00:19:05
Speaker
think at first that she was the writer of that novel and was like, how come? so So that's how I knew the story and and we we joke about it right now when I see her.
00:19:18
Speaker
Well, what an amazing compliment, though, that she was like, no, no, this is too good. Well, I think I tried to. Yeah, at first I was a bit, you know, hurt that I was like an imposter or something like that. But I think it was yeah in a way a compliment, I guess.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Awesome. that's that's That's a great little
Literary Influences
00:19:41
Speaker
story. um We are at the point in the episode where I ship you off and maroon you and ask you, Eric, if you were stranded on a desert island with with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be?
00:19:57
Speaker
Well, I think it would be my favorite book, which is The Promise of Dawn by Roman Garie, who is a French writer. um And it's really my favorite book. it's It's about, well, it's something we could call today an auto fiction, even though the the term didn't exist at that at that time. So it's very inspired by his own life.
00:20:24
Speaker
And I don't know, it's the kind of story very elegantly written with like a ah punch at the very end of the book that makes you reconsider the whole book. It's the kind of thing I i just love to to read.
00:20:45
Speaker
And maybe maybe the character of his mother in that book inspired the one of the mother of my main character, Tarik, in the way she was so fond of France and everything that was French, and she was very eccentric also. um So yeah, I think that would be the promise of Dawn.
00:21:12
Speaker
Okay, that sounds great. I love how you talk about, you sort of wear your influences on your sleeve. Like you you sort of have um almost like collect connecting lines where you can point to like, oh, there was this influence over here and there was this influence over here and that this has all kind of come together to coalesce in the novel that you created.
00:21:32
Speaker
But you know, it's not always and that clear. I remember one day I had i had been asked to present my um how How could I say that? ah My dream um ah bookshop with my favorite books. And I was talking about one book, which is La Sombra del Biento, The Shadow of the Wind, I guess, in English, by Carlos Ruizafon. And
00:22:09
Speaker
When I was talking about it in that meeting, I was like, oh my God, but the character of the servant, im I'm quite sure that in a way it inspired the character of Fathaya in my book, ah because there is a servant who is also very moving, but at the same time ah ah always ah saying funny things. And and I realized that Presenting the book in front of a public and an an audience so it was quite Disturbing for me, but funny at the same time that I was realizing that maybe the inspiration comes from that It's not always so clear in in your mind But yeah, it's it's always funny to try to to find out oh Which will your inspirations?
00:23:02
Speaker
Yeah.
Subconscious Inspirations
00:23:03
Speaker
I've definitely spoken to authors where I've sort of extrapolated from something they've said and been like, oh, so this kind of explains why this was in the story or so and so. And it's funny for them to sort of, so I've had authors on who think have thought, oh yes, i've never I've never realized that before, but yes, that probably is where that comes from.
00:23:23
Speaker
Whereas at the same time, you had some which are very clear to me. For example, um the movie um The Dead Poets Society. You know that movie. Yeah, Robin Williams. Exactly. There is one scene in that movie, which is maybe the most moving one of the whole film. And I was like,
00:23:47
Speaker
Why am I so moved to by this scene in particular when I see it? And is it possible to recreate the same kind of emotion in my book? And it gave me What is probably my favorite scene in in the book, which is of course quite different from the one in the movie, but trying to use the same mechanism to create the emotion. So yeah, sometimes it's very clear in your mind what, where the inspiration comes from. And sometimes it's not at all. And you rediscover it by casualty.
00:24:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think
Emotional Impact in Storytelling
00:24:27
Speaker
it's a really good thing to do to kind of develop your skills as a storyteller as well, to look at something that really elicited a strong emotional reaction in you and then break it down and think, why was I so connected to this? Why did it have such a profound effect?
00:24:44
Speaker
it's Yeah, I think it's the best way to to to create. um Try to understand why at this very moment I was emotioned, I was moved, I was touched by something I i saw or I heard. um Music also is one of my inspirations. I know the musicality of the sentences are is very important for me.
00:25:09
Speaker
and it was not so clear for me until I had discussions with my translators. um For example, asking me about my intention behind that word. oh What did you want to say exactly with that word? Because in Spanish, for example, we could translate it in many ways. So what was the intention? And When I was trying to find out what the intention was, I was realizing that the three sentences in that part of the novel were exactly the same number of syllables, for example. And and and that's something very musical that comes from my aborted career of lyricism, I guess.
00:25:55
Speaker
but But I know it was not um it was on purpose, even though I'm not counting on my fingers when writing. I know it was something not incidental. um I made it and on purpose. So yeah, I think it's always important to try to find out where the emotion comes from and and try to see if there is a possibility or not to recreate it in your own piece of art.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's a
Conclusion and Farewell
00:26:26
Speaker
really great way of of like putting it and I think a great way to just develop yourself as as a storyteller. I'd love to talk a bit more about translation. Coming up, I've got some more questions about that. A bit more about publishing bits and getting an agent. ah That's all going to be in the extended episode available on Patreon. um Oh, my God. These who were only my imaginary friends. Well, this kid is talking about them as if it was common friends we have now. And it's it's it's very moving when it happens. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. um and And we're at the end. So thank you so much, Eric, um for coming on the podcast and chatting with me, telling me all about your kind of writing and and publishing experience and and the novel. What I know about you
00:27:15
Speaker
which is out as of last year, so it's out now. Everyone listening can go and get it. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Thanks a lot Jamie, it was a very sweet moment.
00:27:26
Speaker
um and anyone listening if you want to keep up with what eric is doing you can follow him on instagram and facebook at erick shakur to support the podcast like follow and subscribe join the patreon for adfree extended episodes and check out my other podcast the chosen ones and other wrote thanks again to eric and thanks to everyone listening we will catch you on the next