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#225 - Eleanor Pilcher
6 Plays4 minutes ago
Contemporary fiction writer and award winning book marketer, Eleanor Pilcher joins us this week to chat about the release of her debut novel, her decade of experience in publishing and tips for authors who are looking to get a little bit more exposure for their books.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. Joining me on this episode is an award-winning book marketer, a TikTok content creator and a fellow podcaster. um And as of very recently, ah has just released her debut novel.
Debut Novel and Themes
00:00:30
Speaker
It's Eleanor Pilcher. Hello. Hello. thanks for um Thanks for coming on chatting with me. a lot to talk about, yeah um but always like to start these with the latest works. And that, of course, is your debut novel, which will be out by the time this airs.
00:00:48
Speaker
It's called That's What She Said. Tell us a little bit about it. ah Yeah, it's um it's a bit, what's the world I'm looking for here? Risqué, perhaps? So free warning to anyone listening in.
00:01:01
Speaker
But yeah, it's the story of ah two women in their late 20s, their best friends and roommates. We have Beth, who is a demisexual young woman who's slightly down on her luck in her career and absolutely adores her best friend, but is...
00:01:14
Speaker
kind of looking ahead to the future. And then we've got Serena, who is a very confident bisexual young woman who basically is afraid of relationships and emotional intimacy.
00:01:25
Speaker
um And it's the story of these two friends as they come together, and Beth is feeling a bit uncomfortable about her demisexual status. She's been made to feel a bit uncomfortable for being a virgin.
00:01:36
Speaker
And she's interested in kind of discovering more about herself and her sexuality and what it means for her life going forward. So, you know, will she be able to date? Will she be able to marry? What does it actually mean? What does her body want?
00:01:48
Speaker
And her best friend, Serena, who is super confident in bed, and says, well, let me help you with this. And they go on a sexual odyssey, and it's a comedic drama things go awry and there's a lot of miscommunications a few popular tropes in there and ah we will see where it ends up well you will if you read it but yes on on the on the front it says ah platonic comedy of errors and i think that sort of sort of sums up what you were just describing there
00:02:18
Speaker
Very much
Demisexuality and Personal Journey
00:02:19
Speaker
so, yes. is a A lot of things happen, a lot of things that were inspired by real life, some of which were not inspired by real life, but yes a lot of comedy. yeah um So I'm familiar with bisexual, but forgive me, what is demisexual?
00:02:35
Speaker
So demisexuality is under the spectrum of asexuality. ah Asexuality is basically when a person doesn't have or has very limited sexual attraction to another person.
00:02:47
Speaker
So there's lots of different kinds of sexualities within this. You have asexual, which is no sexual feelings for anybody at any time. Then you have demisexual, which is Beth's character, who has, for the most part, doesn't have sexual attraction, sexual feelings even.
00:03:00
Speaker
for anybody, unless she has a very, very deep emotional connection, which is a bit more than just your average dating. You need to really, in her case, it's all about trust, but it's different for everybody. It's not universal experience. It can change, but you have to have an emotional connection with someone before you are sexually attracted to them.
00:03:17
Speaker
And then there's a few others like gray sexual, for example, where sexual attraction can be fleeting, comes and goes at random. and But that's the kind of, it's underlies the asexual spectrum. Oh, okay.
00:03:29
Speaker
Okay. um this is This is new to me, so I'm i'm lo learning a lot here. But that's that's what this kind of what makes sort of books like this so interesting, is you're kind of exploring something that isn't as broadly... you know I think most people will know what bisexual means, but you're now talking about things which is like a whole new area, which is like really... One of the best things about reading a novel is kind of learning ah about new parts of society that you didn't understand or know even know existed in some cases.
00:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think that was... ah the main driver, I'd say, actually, for why I wanted to write this, because I am a demisexual woman myself. And I didn't realize I was demisexual until I read a book, and which was Radio Silence by Alice Oseman.
00:04:07
Speaker
And um that kind of went, I know, just sort of ticked a box in my head and went oh, that's me. And I was 25 when that happened. You know, it wasn't in my teen years. I wasn't 18 years old. um And so it's a lot of people, like my publisher and I, we had a discussion about, do we call this, that's what she said, do we call it a book about coming of age because the characters are in their late 20s.
00:04:28
Speaker
But I kind of thought, well, yeah, because sexuality, particularly with regards to asexuality, which there isn't much literature about at the minute, is more. I'm very glad there's more, but there's been very limited amounts of um books and stories and certainly in film and TV until recent years.
Reader Responses and Writing Passion
00:04:42
Speaker
And so it is a coming of age novel and it is about discovering more about demisexuality and asexuality as a whole but it's new to most people and I really like the response I've been getting from people saying oh I have never read about this I've never heard about it or this is me or even just people that know they're demisexual asexual reading it and going this really helped me to feel seen so um that's my favorite kind of comment or review it doesn't even matter if they like the book or not if they just feel seen because of it and the representation that makes me very happy.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah. Amazing. and And it sounds like, um, it sounds like it was a lot of fun to write and it's a lot of fun to to read as well. Um, you've been, i mentioned it as I was introducing you, but you've been working in publishing for over a decade.
00:05:25
Speaker
So I was wondering, is this the first novel that you have written or have you been writing your own stories, you know, the whole time that you've been working in publishing? Yeah, I think like pretty much everyone that must come on your podcast, I've been writing since my teenage years.
00:05:40
Speaker
um i I wrote my first novel when I was 16, which will never see the light of day ever. um And then I just continued writing. I went to university to do history and acting, actually. And then when I got to my university, it had a very strange system. And they said, oh, you need to take another course.
00:05:55
Speaker
So I took creative writing and ultimately I got a degree in history and creative writing, um which are connected because history acting and creative writing is all about storytelling. So I realized in creative writing classes, oh, I like stories.
00:06:09
Speaker
Stories are my kind of bread and butter. And it wasn't really until I was at university that i I realized that the writing I was doing, the novels I was writing as a hobby, rather than going to the shops or whatever with my friends, ah could actually lead to a career. So From then on, I think, so from about the age of 19, 20, I started dedicating myself, trying to get better. I started ah ah applying. I started sending submissions to literary agents.
00:06:33
Speaker
And I got a few kind of calls for manuscripts and feedback and such, but I didn't really hear anything about a deal or an offer actually until 2019. And that came about really randomly because by that point I'd been working in publishing for three years um full time.
Creation and Publishing Journey
00:06:51
Speaker
And I've met an agent who was new to the and new to her job at the time at an industry party. And I'd submitted some work for the Simon & Schuster one-day submission, which I think actually one of your guests, Heidi Swain, did the same thing.
00:07:04
Speaker
And that she's lovely. And we I submitted it to that and I had some interest from S&S. And my then colleagues at HarperCollins said to me, oh, you should use this and get an agent.
00:07:15
Speaker
and Because at the time I was just going it alone. I'd given up on the agents. I'd been submitting for five, six years at that point. um But I reached out to this agent that I'd met at party a few weeks beforehand and said, look, this has happened. SNS are interested in something.
00:07:28
Speaker
Would you be interested in reading it? And I sent that email from my office 9am online. And by 3pm that day, I had representation. i had an email offer. she didn't even read the manuscript. She was like, yeah, this sounds good to me Let's go for it.
00:07:40
Speaker
um Sadly, nothing came with the SNS. The editor that was interested left. um I've actually since worked with her and on the freelance basis, but not as an editor for a project itself. And then, to be honest, we then went into lockdown.
00:07:52
Speaker
And a lot of things happened in lockdown. And actually, one of them was writing. That's what she said. I wrote it in between March and August of that year, just every weekend. I just spent writing because there was nothing to do. We couldn't go outside.
00:08:03
Speaker
So yeah, it was an event for few weeks. Was it, because I know publishing is one of those industries that is massive, but it can feel small because to some degree it sometimes feels like everyone knows each other. yeah Was is it strange having, you know, your professional life in publishing for many years? And obviously you would have a lot of connections within that.
00:08:24
Speaker
Was it strange sort of coming, sort of looping around and coming back into it from this different direction? It wasn't at first, but then to be honest, when I first kind of got an agent and started submitting and doing things like that, I'd probably been in the industry about five years and I was still fairly junior.
00:08:38
Speaker
And because of the pandemic, I hadn't really been, be honest, I was also an introvert. I was an introvert in the pandemic and I hadn't really been socializing and going to parties and networking too much. I'd gone to the industry ones where I was required to be there.
00:08:51
Speaker
You know, it was a case of slightly being forced to turn up and have warm Prosecco. um But then after the pandemic, there was a sudden need to speak to people. And so now I think my my network and my relationships have have changed. And i I do think I feel it slightly more definitely as a freelancer as well, where I'm talking to somebody new.
00:09:10
Speaker
practically every hour it feels like. So um yeah, you feel it a bit more after, I mean, after a decade, you certainly feel it a bit more, but it's also that there's the cycle of people, you know, I mentioned the the editor at SNS who then left, who I've now worked with, and then my agent at the time who has since left and I've got a new agent and it's, ah there's so many people coming back around um and re-entering my life at different points. So it's interesting to see the development.
00:09:37
Speaker
and And in publishing, people are moving all the time as well. Like I've, I work with a lot of publicists for the podcast and, you know, I've worked with publicists who have now been at, you know, three different publishing houses in the time that I've been doing this podcast.
00:09:53
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, how long have you been doing this podcast now? I'll tell you how many I've been at. Like three years. Three years. Okay. I've been it i've been at three. yeah Yeah. I've done that. Exactly that. So it's um we we do move around sometimes, not by choice. I mean, I was made redundant last year, so I have since gone freelance.
00:10:11
Speaker
But in the space of my writing career, just to give you an example, um i actually did an IP book first. So that's what she said I consider my debut because it's my it's my first novel written under my full name and it's my idea and my story, my submission, everything.
00:10:26
Speaker
But I was actually asked to write a book on behalf of an imprint, ah which has since closed down. um So that imprint was only around for about 18 months ah before it got shut. It was a very, very quick blink and you miss it kind of thing.
00:10:41
Speaker
moment in publishing history. um But in the time of even this book with actual, that's what she said, I submitted it to my editor because I'm published by Harper US technically. So i'm I'm published primarily in the USA and then distributing it in the UK via Harper 360, which is the sort of UK base for US titles.
00:11:01
Speaker
So it's all complicated because I'm a UK author based in the UK, published by the US. yeah But my editor in the US, s she acquired it in November of 2023. And then by January 2024, I had a new editor ah because she left. wow So it's it's very quick to change. um And even with the IP book, which came out in 2021, I had, i think, two different marketers, maybe, and multiple publicists.
00:11:30
Speaker
um So yeah, so that the staffing can change. on a dime. It feels like at any moment I've had two agents. It's kind of, yeah, it never stays the same. And I mean, as a, as a marketer myself, I've worked on books.
00:11:41
Speaker
Um, some books I've worked on a series of kind of four or five for an author. And then other books, I work on one book for that author. And by the time they deliver their second book I've left. So yeah yeah, it could be really, really quick.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think gone are the days where an author would have the same editor and the same like marketing team. like it's it's It's rarer now than it was like 10, 20 years ago, I'd imagine.
00:12:05
Speaker
much, better I'd say even to be honest, five years ago. I think the pandemic really did cause a lot of changes in the way that the publishing industry works, not only with kind of working from home, but also where people want to live and how centralized it is to London. So there's just a lot of natural movement. And then also with the likes of um sales being what they are, ah restructures, redundancies are quite common. So a lot of changes can happen very quickly, as I mentioned, but also slightly out of the ah publisher's
Changing Literary Agents
00:12:31
Speaker
control. So hopefully it will stabilize soon though.
00:12:34
Speaker
Well, we'll see. The US aren't helping right now. um And your current agent is the wonderful Hannah Schofield at LBA. um She's been on twice before on this podcast. She's brilliant.
00:12:49
Speaker
How did that partnership come about then? So, yeah, I had um another agent, like i mentioned, also called Hannah, so not at all confusing. And she was leaving her agency. She was going ah to work in-house a publisher, so she was leaving agenting as well.
00:13:06
Speaker
And when she left, the agency that I was with didn't have any literary agents at all. They had kind of moved away from the literary space and were more... into a different talent management area. And whilst I was absolutely represented by the agency, I was a bit concerned that whoever came in, i wouldn't necessarily have control over what in terms of, do they like my style? Do they like my writing?
00:13:26
Speaker
i also didn't know when they were going to come and when they were going to join the company. And at the time I'd been... published, but i hadn't actually gone on submission for nearly two years and I'd written two novels. So I was a bit impatient.
00:13:38
Speaker
So I decided to submit under a pseudonym because I'm always aware that I work in publishing and therefore I work with a lot of agents and I didn't want to kind of go down the nepotistic route again because I did kind of the first time.
00:13:50
Speaker
and So I decided to submit to a few hand-selected agents who I kind of knew the style of. under a pseudonym and see what happened. And I messaged Hannah Schofield as one of them.
00:14:01
Speaker
And I sent her a novel, which is a Christmas romance. And it was all under a pseudonym, a very Christmassy name. And she came back fairly quickly and kind of said very politely, um this is nice. I like it, but I have another author that's writing something similar at the minute. So I can't take this on good luck for the future.
00:14:18
Speaker
And I kind of very quickly went, you know what? I've got this other novel, which is slightly risque, slightly risky. um Do i want to publish it? I'm not sure, but I'm going to give it a go. And I sent it to her and I said, look, I've got this friend's story. It's sexual odyssey story, demisexual representation.
00:14:33
Speaker
And again, within five hours, I got an all caps email, which was just send me this manuscript now. oh And then a couple of weeks later, I was at an industry party again, and she was there. She had no idea who I was. We'd never actually met in person before.
00:14:47
Speaker
And we did the kind of introductions and such, and she was very, very nice. so And the next day got an email from her ah saying, I really like this manuscript. I want to know who you are now, because I still hadn't revealed at this point my name.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I kind of went, well, we met yesterday, which was really, really funny. And it turned out she'd actually been speaking to one of the editors at my publisher about this manuscript she was reading that she was really liking. And it turned out to be mine.
00:15:10
Speaker
So, which is really, really nice. And then that was it. We met up um because she worked around the corner from me, met up for a coffee and ah she had to be a bit blunt. She was like, you do realize I'm offering you like representation, right? Because i was just sat there having a good old chat.
00:15:23
Speaker
So was like, oh yeah, that'd be great. Please. Thank you. And then of course, it's a bit of, them I was, like said, still represented at that point by my old agency. So we went through all the T's and C's. It's very, if you if you're not happy of your agency or if you're you're ready to move on or it's not working for you anymore, which happens quite a lot, actually, surprisingly so perhaps.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah. um You just kind of have to make sure you've just followed the T's and C's. And that was it. So 30 day calling off period, couldn't talk to another agent, couldn't do any deals or edits or anything like that. And as soon as that was done and they no longer had any rights to me, it was case of signing up with Hannah.
00:15:53
Speaker
And then here we are. Because ah you were still, even though your agent had left, you were still with that agency. represented by the agency. Yeah. So it's, so it's it's like I said, it does happen. it's Usually it's just a case of an agent leaves or an agency changes. So like said, it was a literary agency when I started working with them.
00:16:12
Speaker
And then a couple of years later, it was more of a talent management agency. So we just weren't as aligned as we used to be. and So it just seemed like the natural time to move over because I knew more about my style of writing and what I wanted to do at this point. So an LBA and Hannah were really perfect for me and I've really loved working with them as well. So that's kind of just how I went about. But all contracts will have a kind of break clause or what to do It's a bit like a very polite breakup, but still amicable, still friendly.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah. and it And it sounds like given that that agency had sort of become something else, I'm sure there was no pushback from their end. No, they were absolutely fine of it. And i'm i it was maybe people kind of are you okay to submit to others while you you are still technically represented? And the answer is yes, so long as you do it and you're upfront about it. So even though I'd submitted under a pseudonym, I did always put in my emails, I am currently represented directly.
00:17:00
Speaker
However, not on submission, not currently in contract. There was no kind of messy bits to sort out. I hadn't had a book published in over two years. Like said, hadn't been on submission at all. So there was there was nothing really to kind of stick around for.
00:17:13
Speaker
Had I been in contract, had I had a book on submission, then absolutely that would have been a bit messy and I would have stuck with the agency. But as I said, it was kind of a natural time for me to move on. Okay. Yeah.
00:17:24
Speaker
That's interesting. Like something to highlight for anyone listening who it maybe has an agent or is thinking about moving agents just to make sure that they understand, like you said, the T's and C's, what you kind of need to do to transition between one agency to the other.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah, precisely. And i did I did have a very open conversation with the the head of the agency beforehand, just to kind of see what was happening with with the literary agency side. When was the new agent going to join? And it was it wasn't there wasn't really much of an answer. She didn't have one at the time, which was completely fair.
00:17:55
Speaker
But it was also very clear to me that just didn't it wasn't the right fit for me anymore. And there was no ill will in that case. I think they recognized it too. So that was why. So very smooth, actually. Surprisingly smooth, but very smooth.
00:18:08
Speaker
ah Okay. Yeah. As good as you could hope for, I guess, in that kind of situation.
TikTok and Marketing Strategies
00:18:11
Speaker
Um, let's talk about, I'd love talk about a few of the the other things that you're moving on. Cause you have, you, you are someone that is juggling or spinning many plates to mix my metaphors together. Um, TikTok, you are a content creator on TikTok and you're you're getting many thousands of views over there. When did you start, um, doing the, the sort of TikTok stuff?
00:18:35
Speaker
um I started playing with it during the pandemic. And I say playing with it because I was of sort of sampling it on behalf of my um then team and because I was the only marketer on the team. Everyone was talking about TikTok.
00:18:47
Speaker
No one knew what it was in 2020, 2021. So I set up my own account just to sort of, let's say, play around. see what the lip syncs were like and how to do dances and how to use the platform.
00:18:58
Speaker
And then in 2023, kind of thought I'd do an experiment where I just posted every single day for a month and see what the impact was. Because I i think by that point, after about three years, I'd grown to about 3000 followers, but I was posting maybe four five times a month that very sporadically, um usually not even in front of the camera. Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
And then I did this experiment. And I think on day three of posting every single day, I just had a ah video go massively viral, completely out of the blue, um just recommending short classic books.
00:19:30
Speaker
And then that was it. I just continued the experiment posting every day and the videos just kept performing. And then I realized I actually quite like this. And I liked being able to talk to people about books um and not kind of do dances and lip syncs, I realized what my passions were.
00:19:45
Speaker
um and yeah, I just started to focus on it. thought, well, I'll just carry on for another month. And then it just spiraled. So, I mean, there's been a few days where I haven't posted now because of illness or holiday or Wi-Fi issues or whatever it may be. But for the most part, I've posted every day or every other day now for over a year.
00:19:59
Speaker
and growing my followers to over 20,000 and learned a lot of lessons and some money from it. It's kind of, yeah, it's just become part of my career now. And I'm very grateful to myself. And that sounds very narcissistic, but I'm glad that I did it when I did it, because then, like i said, six months later, I got made redundant. So it was a case of, yeah, now you have something to fall back on.
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. um Whilst we're on TikTok, a lot of authors that I've spoken to, and especially um debut authors, because I think when you're first coming into this, there's a lot of pressure to to, you feel a lot of pressure to sort of be like, I need to put myself out there.
00:20:37
Speaker
And a lot of people ask, you know, something like TikTok, which is, i mean, BookTok has such a profound impact on the way that the industry is kind of working and how things are marketed now. yeah ah People are always asking, you know, how do i make TikTok work for me? What advice would you give to to to authors who are trying to sort of build a presence on TikTok?
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not going to lie. It's huge. um And it is having a huge impact on the publishing industry when it comes to things like acquisitions and what we look for when we look for authors. um It's not to say you have to have a TikTok um or that you have to have a massive TikTok if you do have one.
00:21:13
Speaker
But if you are thinking about doing it, I think the first thing to always consider is, is this where my audience is? Is TikTok where the readers of crime fiction are? And at the minute I'd say no.
00:21:24
Speaker
But if you're writing a fantasy, a romance, a romantic to combine the two of them, um then yeah, probably that is where your audience is. And yeah, it's more likely that you should set up a TikTok and give it a go. um So I think that's the first thing is, is my audience there?
00:21:37
Speaker
The second thing is with authors in particular, I always say to them, what's your niche? um Because if I say what's my niche as and as an author on TikTok, it's not actually being an author or talking about demisexuality or even my book for the most part.
00:21:50
Speaker
It's primarily talking about classic books, which has no connection whatsoever to my niche. genre at least, but um it still connects me to readers. And I love that. And i they seem to connect with me as a content creator in that way.
00:22:04
Speaker
So I'd say that's kind of my niche, but it's it doesn't always have to be related to your actual book or even books in general. I've seen authors that have niches where their niche is kind of painting or embroidery or knitting, something artsy and craftsy.
00:22:16
Speaker
I've seen others that are, I mean, I'm thinking of my my old editor, B. Fitzgerald is on there, also an author. and absolutely brilliant. And her niche on TikTok is actually ah Greek mythology. And she does these amazing little comedy sketches using trendy trending sounds and was dressed up as Hero and Zeus. And they're absolutely fantastic, very entertaining.
00:22:34
Speaker
And that's her niche. So it's I think that's kind of the, you need to figure out what it is and experimenting. I mean, like I said, I started TikTok probably 2021. And it took me two years to figure out that classic books and book recommendations as a whole was where I sat because I was doing all the trending sounds, the TikToks, thelip the lip syncs even, and the sort of talking to camera carousels. I was experimenting and you don't need to get it right initially. i think a lot of authors put a lot of pressure on themselves to hit the ground running, have a load of content, post every single day, build up their following immediately.
00:23:07
Speaker
You don't need to. You just need to kind of figure out, do you like the platform? What works on the platform for me and for my potential audience and go from there? But it is, there's ah there's a lot of experimenting to be done and it is quite high pressured and it feels like it could be a flash in the pan moment. I mean, it's it's stuck around for the last five years. I don't think it's going anywhere yet.
00:23:25
Speaker
um But yeah, it's it is something i i as a freelancer in particular, i do have a lot of conversations with authors, both independently published and traditionally published about TikTok and whether or not it is the right place for them.
00:23:38
Speaker
um But if I'm being absolutely honest, TikTok at the minute is where I'd say a large portion of organic marketing and publicity is succeeding. Yeah. So yes, it is a good place to be if you work at it.
00:23:51
Speaker
But if you don't enjoy it, then readers and viewers can absolutely tell that. And it's not worth doing, in my opinion, if you don't enjoy it.
Substack and Publishing Insights
00:23:59
Speaker
So okay, yeah, yeah i mean, that's, that's a pretty solid overview and and some good advice there um for anyone listening.
00:24:06
Speaker
Then the other thing, speaking of um additional revenue streams, you have a sub stack with um many paid subscribers. um You were telling me this before we started recording, but this, you used to run a blog and a mailing list and you've kind of transitioned it into sub stack.
00:24:23
Speaker
Is that right? Yeah, that's very much it. I used to, I mean, I got my first jobs in publishing actually, because I used to run a blog ah because back in the day, a decade ago now, because that makes me feel old, um having a WordPress site and being able to do basic coding and know how to use Canva ah were really kind of desirable skills for marketers.
00:24:41
Speaker
um They still are to a degree, ah but now it would be TikTok related rather than Canva and coding perhaps. But yeah, I did have a blog. I loved it. I didn't see much in the return in with regards to revenue. it I saw nothing.
00:24:53
Speaker
and But with regards to kind of traffic and such, it was fine. It didn't lead to anything. I didn't get opportunities. I just enjoyed doing it. And then when I left my last role and I went freelance, I had a mailing list and I got to the point on my mailing list where i was going to have to pay to send newsletters to my subscribers.
00:25:10
Speaker
And I just thought, well, that's an absolute pain. I don't really need that added expense, but I also need to grow my mailing list. i need to grow my business, my audience, my I've got a book coming out. And so I looked into Substack at that point because I thought this is the best of both worlds.
00:25:23
Speaker
I can stop paying the domain on my blog. I can stop paying to reach my readers and actually just put it all into one place and make it look pretty and make it serviceable both as a book content creator, but also as a freelance marketer and as a writer.
00:25:38
Speaker
um And then, like said, i've I've been running it now for about nine months. I have earned more money from my Substack than I earned in the eight years I was writing ah blog and definitely earned more than I've ever earned from my newsletter in terms of sales as well and direct clicks and things like that. So, ah yeah, it's been ah it's proven to be a really good platform for me. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the right platform for everybody. We were discussing Patreon, for example.
00:26:00
Speaker
um There are a lot of different ones that people enjoy, but yeah, it's worked really, really well so far for me. I would say, i mean, especially if the majority of your content, you're going to do just written word and like articles and and blogs, like you say, Substack, I think probably is the best choice for that because that is what it primarily does.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And it kind of comes with its own social media. It's sort of like a Twitter replacement for me because they have something called Substack Notes um where you can engage with other content creators, but also just people that read other Substacks on there, which has proven very engaging and actually enjoyable as well. back It kind of feels like the good old days of Twitter back when am people used to have communities and stuff.
00:26:38
Speaker
Q&As. And I don't remember know if people remember the ah old sort of weekly chats. They're always at like Tuesday at 8pm. We all get on Twitter and answer questions for an hour. miss that.
00:26:49
Speaker
So that's ah a quite enjoyable side of it. But there's there's a lot of other pluses to the platform that I know a lot of other content creators on there love, like their podcasts and things. But the monetization... you don't have to monetize it and it doesn't have to be every post. I think most of mine are free for the most part, but there's an element of me, particularly from the freelance side where I'm giving kind of tips and tricks to authors and publishers and opinion pieces, whatever it may be that I charge for as a freelancer now in coaching calls or in packages.
00:27:15
Speaker
So being able to put that behind a paywall, even if it's only £3.50 is still beneficial to me as a, like I said, a secondary income as a freelancer. So I've really enjoyed yeah doing that. Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:26
Speaker
Yeah, I recently had Helena Anstra Theron, who's had great success with um and sort of indie publishing her novels through Substack. um And I think I've spoken to a couple of authors who are either beginning that kind of process or thinking about doing that kind of thing.
00:27:43
Speaker
um kid Do you see it as somewhere, a new kind of avenue that some people some parts of the industry are headed towards? I think so. I mean I've definitely seen a lot of authors gravitating over to it because of the fact it's free to use, which a lot of the newsletters, like I say, just aren't after a certain amount of subscribers subscribe.
00:28:02
Speaker
um But it's also, you can do, you can set up sub stack newsletters for a specific project. So if you're just releasing a book, for example, you can create multiple sub stacks for different books or different projects. um Some authors I've worked with have created sub stacks just to promote a book, like they release extra content, deleted scenes.
00:28:19
Speaker
They're but their findings, their playlists, whatever it may be through it. But I've also started to see a lot more publishing professionals going on there and giving advice, doing roundups, bringing people behind the scenes of what it means to work or be published in the publishing industry.
00:28:33
Speaker
um The only thing I haven't seen yet, but I'm sure we will see soon, is the kind of corporate side. I haven't seen any of the indie or big five publishers yet join Substack and use it as a newsletter format.
00:28:44
Speaker
But I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year we see some of them moving there because The monetization element of it is great, but you can also directly talk to your subscribers. You can have a conversation in the comments and DMs with the people that subscribe, which you just can't really do with a newsletter. You land in their inbox and you hope they read it and they hope they click on things.
00:29:03
Speaker
But on Substack, you can have an absolutely open dialogue. And I think that's a really interesting thing. And I i wouldn't be, like I said, surprised to see a publisher experiment with it. A bit like TikTok. Yeah.
00:29:14
Speaker
and And there's something um different about um engaging with like someone who is following you freely versus someone who is paying to subscribe to You know, that's a much more invested user in some way. So their feedback might be um more interesting than sort of lots of free users.
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it can be a real mix. I mean, majority of my subscribers, I say, are still free and that's perfectly fine. That's kind of what i want as well. a lot of the stuff I write is tailored towards people in entry level or just starting out. And I don't want them to have to pay for very simple or very, you know, should be easy to access advice.
00:29:51
Speaker
and But the the stuff, like i said, I put behind the paywall is usually things I charge for, but then the people that pay get access to that and they can have more one-to-ones, and work with me or I can work with them in whatever way they need. So it's, it's interesting. um And I think publishing has never really missed a trick when it comes to, they might be a bit delayed, but they never seem to miss a trick when it comes to new programs and platforms.
00:30:12
Speaker
So yeah i will, I think we'll see, we'll see something by the end of the year. And I almost hope we do because I'd really like to see how it would work.
New Podcast Project
00:30:19
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be interesting for sure. um Just before we ah head over to the desert island, um you have recently started a podcast. It's called Why You're Reading and you do it with YouTuber L Literacy. Just quickly tell us tell us a bit about the podcast, what it is and and kind of why you guys started it.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. This was one of the really interesting opportunities that came my way after I went freelance, ah where a very lovely producer who used to work at the BBC just dropped in my emails and went, can I call you about this podcast idea I've had?
00:30:55
Speaker
And it just spiraled from there. I ended up going to his house in Covent Garden, not Covent Garden, even Camden, and thinking i was about to be murdered. I wasn't, but he did say when he opened the door, I'm not a murderer. i was like, you would say that though, wouldn't you?
00:31:06
Speaker
um but then That's more suspicious. Exactly, more suspicious. I love Jeremy, he's great. um But i I hadn't actually met my co-host, Ellen, at this point. We met and for the first time at his house and we discussed his idea. We were both recruited, and but we got on instantly and we we had such an easy rapport. And it was funny because we'd be chatting and he'd be recording us and they'd just stop and just go, yeah, this will work. Yeah.
00:31:30
Speaker
This is like, okay. um But we we had a lot of discussions. We have an audio editor who thankfully does all the tech side, usually at Sunday night at the very end of the day. So really, really big shout out to Eleanor.
00:31:41
Speaker
um But yeah, we we had this chat, we planned it all out and we wanted to focus on sort of the big book talk books. So the books that everyone's talking about, both the backlist. So books that were published more than a year ago.
00:31:52
Speaker
and in some cases more than 10 years ago. um And then also the books that have just published like Sunrise and the Reaping and be able to kind of jump on the chat of like, why is this so popular? Why are we reading books about domestic abuse and talking about them like they're the best thing ever? Why are we reading books about habit making and do they actually work? um And it's just proven to be really interesting and really exciting. And I love being able to chat about publishing, as you may be able to tell.
00:32:17
Speaker
of So being able to kind of bring that side of it whilst Ellen brings all her cultural knowledge, she's very, very intelligent. ah It's proven to be just very interesting and enjoyable. And I've read so much as a result. So I feel on trend for once.
00:32:31
Speaker
Awesome. and well Well, it sounds great. Anyone listening, if you want to check that out, it's called Why You're Reading and it's on Apple, Spotify. I imagine other places too, but those are usually the two places people go.
00:32:42
Speaker
Yeah, and YouTube. Yes. um Awesome. So we are at the point where I ship you off and ask you, Eleanor, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be?
00:32:56
Speaker
Ooh, there's a load that come to mind immediately. um But to be honest, my favourite book and one that i probably reread at least once a year is actually a book called The Reader and by Bernhard Schlink, which is a German translation historical novel set ah primarily in the years after World War two in Germany, as I mentioned.
00:33:15
Speaker
And it's interesting because covers three sort of periods in a man's life when he's a teenager, and when he's a student, and then later when he's and a middle-aged man. divorced and kind of going through some things and it's all about this relationship he has with a much older woman when he was a teenager um and then i don't want to give any spoilers away and it'd be very easy to give some spoilers away but there's a lot of references to what occurred in Germany in World War 2 the woman's part in it and his relationship with her and his sort of the damage that was done, but also the other emotions that kind of came into play with the romance they had when he was, ah like said, underage, and also when he rediscovered her later on in life. So it's very complicated, morals and ethics story, very interesting, very simply written.
00:34:01
Speaker
but incredibly incredibly moving and there was a fantastic film adaptation as well with Kate Winslet I think it's the one she won the Oscar for as well um but yeah that's that's the one I'd want to probably take with me I just find it whenever I read it I get something different from it my perspective change changes and the characters change in my head every time I find it very interesting Yeah.
00:34:20
Speaker
I mean, it sounds like it covers a lot of emotional range. It does. Within the story. Definitely. also combining your the the the two parts of your degree, history and creative writing.
Conclusion and Social Media Info
00:34:32
Speaker
Precisely that. Perfect. um Next up, we are going to get into a bit more publishing stuff. Quite specifically, i wanted to pick Helena's brain about her experiences in marketing and publicity for novels.
00:34:46
Speaker
All that will be in the extended episode available at patreon.com slash right and wrong. um um Maybe Facebook, if you're writing poetry, seems to work really well on Facebook at the minute.
00:34:57
Speaker
So there's there's it you have to kind of experiment, see where your favourite authors are, see where they're based and where they're posting and see what you enjoy. Okay, great. Yeah, that's some great advice there.
00:35:08
Speaker
um And that brings us quite nicely to to the to the end of the episode. So thank you so much, Eleanor, for coming on the podcast and chatting with me, telling us all about your your debut novel, That's What She Said, which is out. um It'll be out right now as of this going live. It's got a lovely, colourful cover.
00:35:24
Speaker
So I imagine it'll be very easy to find in in a bookshop and and it's out in all the all the usual places. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and chatting with us. It's been great. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
00:35:36
Speaker
And for anyone wanting to keep up with what Eleanor is doing, you can find her on Instagram at Eleanor Pilcher, author on TikTok and sub stack at Eleanor Pilcher, or on her website. If you just Google her, she comes up, all the things are there.
00:35:49
Speaker
To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again to Ellie and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.